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Speedmap #79
This week's theme was Abandoned city, and wasn't defined any more than that. Vague setting ideas generally make the best themes anyway.

For mappers, we had Drew, Mike Woodham, Necros, RPG, Zwiffle, and myself. A few of the mappers followed the theme, the rest did their own thing which made this pack a real mix of ups and downs and oohs and ahhs. I think you guys will enjoy it.

Just to note, RPG's map is meant to be pure black. Enjoy the maps!

http://speedq1.spawnpoint.org/
Uh 
I wanted to join this session, but had no time to do it:(

I'll make the abandoned themed speedmap for the next pack 
RPGs Map 
Is fucking golden...I loved it, that was pretty cool.

fmb, I believe it was...How'd you do the terrain in your map so quickly? Did you have some kinda prefabs to slap together, or is the terrain something that your mapping proggy helped with? 
No. 
He used the AWFUL POWER OF SATAN! He must be BURNED! Then maybe chastised, the BURNED AGAIN! 
Just For The Record 
The maps were all pretty fun to play through. Good combat. Lots of creatures. And the boss fight in Scampie's map was hella tough. Hardest combat I've played in ANY games. 
Zwiffle 
Has class.

Mike's was last week's map obviously.

Ummmm yeah. 
Mini Reviews 
RPG's was the best experimental map of the week.

Zwiffle's was the best overall map. I would have liked to see a little more contrast in the lighting, as it was a little difficult to determine the depth in some places.

scampie's was the best map that didn't actually have anything.

Mike's had the best natural terrain.

Drew's had the best gameplay and progression.

necros gets the award for the only map where I only looked at the start room. I ran out of time before I could go farther. Sorry. 
General Info. 
This was my first Speedmap and it took over four hours to make:

120 minutes to build map
100 minutes to place monsters
30 minutes play-testing
gave up on full vis after 10h 33mins (overnight)

I realise that this is somewhat over the 100 minutes but I suspect many maps take more than 100 minutes anyway. However, you have to start somewhere and I could get quicker.

I have been playing with a terrain generator for several months. This simply lays down a grid of triangles that you can then manipulate into terrain. The effects are quite good and selecting the right balance of textures and lighting give impressive results (not that I am saying SM79_fmb was impressive)

Unfortunately, I have not been able to build a large-scale map without incurring the wrath of the compile demons. This is probably the largest map I have made without various clipping errors. These result in falling through 'solid' brushes, invisible clip brushes i.e. they are not in the map file, they are generated at conpile time, and leaks through solid brushes. (I bet aguiRe will find some errors!)

AguiRe has already spent plenty of time trying to help me on this but after all said and done, I think I have found a limit. Mind you, aguiRe has got a 32,000 brush, on a 4032 x 4032 grid opening in his development engine.

I have another map in progress that I hope I can get to run - I am struggling with leaks through solid brushes at the moment. Some screen shots can be seen at:

http://www.planetquake.com/underworld/ss/fmb154.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/underworld/ss/fmb156.jpg

I would welcome any comments on the use of large scale terrain in Quake maps, or on the effect of the terrain in my SM79_fmb.

Like or loathe, save or delete? 
IMHO 
A better rock texture in those two screenshots would help, as would a little more contrast and variety in the lighting. Even though seperate faces are shaded accordingly, it still looks a bit boring IMHO.

Other than that, the terrain seems good to me; though the square plateaus seem a bit incongruous. 
Diverse Maps 
I found Zwiffle's to have best architecture, textures and gameplay but a bit uniform lighting. With some tweaking, this map looks very good. One big HOM in the skybox, though.

Drew's map had also good but really tough gameplay, I was constantly very low on health. However, technically the map wasn't very good and also not sealed properly (leaks at the exit).

Mike's had very nice visuals (especially the terrain) but I found the gameplay to be unfair and frustrating. Maybe I need to switch tactics but I had serious problems to get to the exit in this one. I didn't find any obvious problems, although I know terrain is very difficult for the tools.

Necros' had interesting lighting (Kinn-style) but the gameplay was seriously hard. The triple vore fight was fun, though. RPG's was dark (lava-lamp anyone?) and Scampie's felt empty, but there was a gold key ... 
Drew 
Is it possible for me to get the zipped source map for sm79_drew? 
Mike 
That is fabulous terrain geometry. I spend way too much time manually creating terrain in my maps. Is this program a net freebie or is it a plug in for a commercial modelling program? 
Just To Clarify 
For those who have not seen the movie Dead Man, sm79_rpg is inspired by that film.

(Where's the revolver icon when you need it?) 
there were some cool maps this time!

drew's was probably the best gameplay wise,

mike's looked really cool, and i can see why it took longer... all those brushes must have been a pain to sculpt :P

rpg's was actually kind of neat... i found myself using the shotgun often as a flashlight.

zwiffle's map was cool... those textures work well in quake.

scampie's... well, i knew what it was before i loaded it, but there was still some decent brushwork for a room.


i'm sorry my map appears to be too difficult... i didn't think it would be as i was able to beat it on all the difficulty levels... maybe try easy mode if it's too hard? 
Sm79_necros 
Okay, I just played sm79_necros. I beat it on the third try. It wasn't really too difficult for me, except there was a general lack of ammo (I missed the 20 shells on top of the light the first time I played). The 40 shells at the exit are basically useless because I couldn't pick them up until after I killed all the monsters. Of course, if you mess up the shambler battle, there's no way you'll be able to finish. 
Mapz 
sm79_necros isn't that hard, beat it on the first try; cool ideas, tho

sm79_fmb had some interresting and unusual architecture and I lacked ammo at the vores :p so couldn't pass it w/o godmode

sm79_scampie is weird0

sm79_rpg is weird0

sm79_zwiffle had a really nice atmosphere and architecture, I'd love to see a standalone big map in such a style 
Fmb 
I used a terain generator that is (or was) a freebie. I am not at home for a few more days but will post details as soon as I return: I am travelling sans-laptop.

The way to finish this map without "cheating" is:-

- axe the dogs, health available if you mess it up
- pick off the first ogres from long range
- draw the left-hand knights to you, shooting as you back off towards the start (don't go into the open yet)
- get the NG and force the first hoarde (on the right)into an in-fight, you can also bring the demons into play here and if you do, the second lot of high ogres can help with their grenades
- run away frequently and the monsters will continue fighting in your absence, pick-off the left overs
- pick off the high vore from long range, she won't fire at you if you are far enough away
- get the shamblers as best you can, I use a mouse only and I can do it! If you did't get the demons earlier, make sure you are not in the open when you kill the last one
- open the gate and get the knights, bring them into the open and back off as usual
- get the GL and either hide behind the brick work or jump-fire from the ground level to get the vores
- get the SNG and take out the scraggs
- jump round the rocks collect the extras from the puddle
- cross to the other side of the canyon and either shoot from the puddle or drop to the ground and get the vores from there
- leave the mega-health until the shambler fight
- get the shamblers as normal but mind the lava trap, you can also drop to the ground and pick off the shamblers with a jump-fire
- go to exit, feel smug

I spent a long time placing monsters so that this map could be finished by those players who wanted to. Just because it is a speed map doesn't mean that the game should a speed finish. And hey, sometimes you die! And sometimes it's best to save every now and then just like in a "real" game.

Would anyone who has finished it properly be prepared to do a demo for me? 
Will Do... 
B()IP 
I've Beated It Twice 
without cheating, but both times (with a bit different strategies) it was with major difficulties (lots of dying and reloading).

I think one of the problems is that there's no armor at all, this in a very open map with 4 shamblers, 5 vores, 2 fiends and lots of ogres and deathknights that attacks from above and below.

Another important thing is that the only way out of the pit is via a rather convoluted path that is heavily guarded, and any slip later on will force you to go all the way again (constantly under attack).

The last thing is that you don't get the weaponry to deal with this situation. I normally don't use the RL much, but I feel that in this map it's pretty much essential to balance the advantage of the heavy monsters on the ledge.

With a limited supply of rockets, it could be useful without tripping the balance the other way.

Putting out multiple vores and shamblers from the distance with only the SG is pretty tedious. I once managed to kill a flying Q2 boss with only my blaster (in Powersphere Quest) and it's not something I'd like to repeat very often.

It's still a nice map Mike :) 
Okay I Have A Demo, Took A Few Goes... 
Shambler 
That's impressive! How long did it take to do that triple-rodney jump? 
Thanks 
I didn't put the rocket launcher in the map quite deliberately.

Once you have cleared the ground area the vores would be too easy with the RL. Only having the GL forces you to get close. The centre vore should be taken out from below, by the lift. She cannot quite get her bombs over the lip of the walkway. Jump, and fire the GL at the top of the jump. This is always the way I deal with high vores without the RL.

The other two can be taken from the ground by the bridge or from on the parapet.

The next two vores are no problem at all if you picked up the nails from the first pond. Just bob up and down in the second pond and shoot the one who spawns on the transporter. Hopefully :-), this one either killed you the first time or at least took some health, hence the mega-health in the second pond.

The last vore can be shot or grenaded without much problem.

I haven't managed to kill both shamblers whilst staying on the high track - I took and gave some damage, then dropped to the ground and took them out with the GL.

And yes, you may need to go all the way around the map agin to get to the exit. Clearly, this is not a speed runner's map...

The theme was arena: I actually made the map for the previous week's SM. The Christians didn't have anywhere to hide in the Roman arenas and that was the idea here - kill or be killed.

Hang on, it's only a game. 
O_o 
aguirRe, is that really you ;) 
Mike And I 
have a sort of split personality disorder, sometimes I also have it with Scragbait ... 
Errrr... 
FMB d00d, do you want the demo?? Send me an email address or summat... 
Ummm... 
I once managed to kill a flying Q2 boss with only my blaster (in Powersphere Quest)

Ohhhhhh yes I remember that. Except I seem to remember also taking out a 5 tanks and a tank boss with the blaster too...or was it a tank and 5 tank bosses?? 
Buttt... 
And yes, you may need to go all the way around the map agin to get to the exit. Clearly, this is not a speed runner's map...

Yes it is. Double GL or highly theoretical triple Vore ball jump to exit. Would be very hard to survive I grant you, but "path blocked solely by height + explosives to hand" = "a speedrunner's map" =) 
Shambler 
And there was me thinking you were joshing!

I would love to see the demo: mikewoodham at msn dot com will do fine.

Thanks.

And your comment re speed running is very interesting. I had never thought of it in that way. I will now see if I can incorporate that idea into FMB15, which is also a terrain based map but with more (salvaged from others scraps) building work. The trouble is, as some girlfriends of mine often remark, "the sheer size of it is going to be a problem. It'll all end in tears." 
Incorporating Speedrunning... 
My view on that, for what it's worth is that you shouldn't deliberately incorporating by compromising any of your mapping ideas, but neither should you deliberately hinder it by blocking off potential areas solely to hinder speedrunners.

Demo sent. 
Holy Shit! 
Who the fuck took over my brain while I was typing that?! Read...

My view on that, for what it's worth, is that you shouldn't deliberately incorporate it by compromising any of your mapping ideas, but neither should you deliberately hinder it by blocking off potential shortcuts solely to hinder speedrunners.


Now watch me b0rk the tags...=/ 
Shambler 
Loved the demo. Thank you very much for taking the trouble.

And I am sorry if this is a bit smarmy but seeing you complete the map, killing everything, and no 'God', no 'noclip', no 'gives', taking the trouble to do something twice to do it right, makes it worthwhile to create maps.

I really do get very depressed when I read that players "had to Godmode". No they didn't, they chose to Godmode because they were too lazy or because they actually had no interest in completeing the map in the first place.

When I finish Bastion, you betcha that I will go and have a good look round. But I will finish it first.

As I said earlier, speed maps do not have to be speed finish (speed running apart).

And I take on board what you say about influencing design to accomodate styles of play.

And no, I am not on a crusade: this happens to be just one bee in just one of my pretty bonnets.

OK, back to mapping. 
Heh. 
Well, I only resort to cheats if it's totally fucking nails, or something that I'm not that interested in playing anyway because it's crap or otherwise (this is what I did initially with yours because it's only a speedmap arena and not exactly the pinnacle of my gaming interest - with all due respect of course, it's pretty good for a speedmap). Good normal maps I'll always try to complete even if I have to try harder *gasp*. 
... 
i never cheat playing maps normally.

I have killed shamblers with axes, rather than cheat. >=)

only time i can ever allow myself to/remember cheating was on a *boring boss battle*(TM)at the end of a custom map unit [cant remember which] when i didnt have enough ammo. 
I Know... 
I'm sure it was one of Vondur's maps

-=8:-E) 
Drew 
had a tough map three or four sessions ago that I finally cheated on after several attempts at not dying. Maybe I should go back and finaly conquer that thing. 
Sm79_zwiffle... 
Zwiffle 
got in 15 secs, can certainly be done 2-3 secs faster.
I'll upload it when I get home 
Meh. 
I have killed shamblers with axes, rather than cheat. >=)

Now that's in the category of too hard / too pointless.

Lodis: Will be interested to see....should be pretty quick with some sort of shortcut off the first crate?? Do SM79_FMB too =) 
Smb79_fmb 
I did an ER in 30 seconds without trying very hard... I guess some kind of gj/voreball thingy straight to the exit could save 10 secs or so. An NR would be more frustrating :-) 
Shambs 
Speedrunning Design 
I consider any normal exploit by your own weapons to not just be a speedrunning thing. Multi-grenade (w/o nearby 666 at least), Voreball, Ogre grenade, Baaul-rocket jumps are speedrunning. 
Spentron 
You're deluded. 
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Website copyright © 2002-2017 John Fitzgibbons. All posts are copyright their respective authors.