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Hi there,
here is another iteration of The Dreaded Dreadbase of Dread: http://maikmerten.de/base1/base1-beta3.zip And some comparison shots: OLD: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta2_1.jpg NEW: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta3_1.jpg OLD: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta2_2.jpg NEW: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta3_2.jpg OLD: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta2_3.jpg NEW: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta3_3.jpg OLD: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta2_4.jpg NEW: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta3_4.jpg Personally, I think that emotion is what makes us truly human, which is why I extended the exit area to present an emotional feat to the player: You'll encounter a beloved old friend! To ensure I don't spoil things, here's a screenshot that I processed to keep the surprise intact: http://maikmerten.de/base1/beta3_5.jpg (the new exit area is still rather raw, but should still be a nice improvement over just running into the exit trigger) There are other tweaks (e.g. regarding entity placement) that are hard to show on screenshots - I recommend experiencing things in-game ;-) The biggest change between this version (a2) and the previous is the removal of the final battle. Instead, I have added a sequence more akin to the one with the falling ceiling platforms. Besides that, there are a number of other small changes which hopefully improves navigation through the map.
Still no artpass, but I do have some ideas I'm excited to implement in the next (and hopefully last) version. New Screens: https://i.imgur.com/R2TtyYY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/AmWU8FO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/99rwgBS.jpg Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0v76jtdl6zisvm/movplan_a2.zip?dl=0 (Includes movplan_a2.bsp and Recorded a demo yesterday:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xg79yzu01ajvchh/base1feedback.dem?dl=0 Otherwise, I don't have much else to add. It was a fun and frantic map. I got the following error in the console: "Host_error: Cannot find maps/excavation.bsp". I don't know if it's related to your map tho. I like how you can find the secrets using the sound from the teleporters (that's how I found the second secret). Found the third one after the recording by noclipping, and I kind of think it would be more interesting if it was a twist on the shootable secret wall formula like the second secret (e.g. the top of a generator is a secret wall), instead of being a repetition of the first secret. Thanks for the demo and for testing in FTE :-)
It's good to know you perceived things as "fun" and "frantic" - in the end what matters is that things are enjoyable. I see that the Shambler fight just doesn't work out as planned. Instead of chasing the player around (to make it more difficult for the player to hide behind one of the pillars), the additional enemies tend to get into an infight with the Shambler, which actually makes things easier for the player. Yeah, I'm not very creative regarding hiding the secrets. I want to be consistent (so the trained eye can spot them without axing every single wall) and not overly random. I'll see if I can remix the formula a bit for the third secret, so things don't get boring. The error message at the end of the level is normal - this map was/is intended as part of a short stand-alone (not depending on Quake assets) single player campaign with the silly name "Zernichter" (https://github.com/maikmerten/zernichter). Basically you'd fight your way through a base (base1) up to the surface, where you'd find an excavation site (excavation.bsp - not nearly finished) uncovering a gateway into a demonic realm. There (in a hell-themed third map) you'd try to stop the demonic invasion. Short and stupid story arch, but of manageable scope. I'm slowly progressing through getting the maps together, releasing them for Quake first. Then I may package them as free/libre stand-alone game (perhaps extending the arch a bit), but currently the liberally licensed assets I can use are of... limited... quality, so that would require a team-effort, e.g., with someone who can create models :-) Played through this one, as opposed to just noclipping around. Somewhat sleep-deprived, so I hope I'm able to make sense.
Spoilers may follow! The good: + Pipes! The decorative pipes add a lot. Overall the map has improved aesthetically. + The final area with the lift is nice; makes me curious as to where it leads. Pity there's no secret under the lift, though. + Found two secret areas (MH and Quad Damage). Really liked both of them, although the Quad Damage area in particular felt a bit empty. Maybe spawn some zombies when the Quad is picked up, which the player has to kill before returning to the main map? It would add bit of extra gameplay as reward for finding the secret (which would be especially welcome for players who -like me- find the secret after having cleared the rest of the map). + I know it's not new, but I really like that descending lift with the ogres etc. The bad/ugly (not particular to this latest iteration, but things I don't think I mentioned before): - Not too crazy about the coloured lighting, though I'm not sure what exactly it is I don't like. Maybe there are too many different colours competing for attention in the same space (red, blue and white lights in close proximity or in the same room), and/or maybe the colours are too saturated. Generally I'm not a fan of obvious/in your face coloured lighting; for me it works best when it's so subtle that it just feels a little more realistic, without the player's necessarily even realising that the lights are not white. - Don't like the use of death knights. In my opinion, knights and death knights do not belong in base/tech maps, just as grunts and enforcers don't fit medieval/temple/etc. maps -- unless the map justifies it somehow, e.g. there's a portal/slipgate, and as you draw near, the "wrong" monsters start spawning in. Haven't played the new Shifting Planes beta yet -- sorry, Spipper! Thanks for your comments!
I can certainly dial back on the coloured lighting a bit. I guess that the "computer room" is one of the areas where things may be "too much" (there's red, yellow, green and blue light in there). For the yellow lights (for instance in the gold key room) I might reduce the saturation a bit to reduce the Quake 2 feel. I understand your dislike for death knights in base maps. For some reason (and I'm not exactly sure why) they blend much less natural into a non-fantasy environment. Ogres are fine IMO (they're fantasy-tech hybrids anyway), Scrags/Wizads are okay IMO (twisted wanderers of dimensions) and Fiends and Shamblers are "monster wildlife" that could just as well shamble on somewhere in Siberia ;-) Perhaps "knight" has such strong cultural connotation with "medieval" and/or "fantasy" that they just don't blend well with industrial/base settings, while the Lovecraftian creatures are not quite as tied to a specific setting (I could easily see Ogres, Shamblers and Fiends doing evil evilness in steel mill along 1980ies Heavy Metal tunes - Knights not so much). I took the liberty of replacing the first elevator the player encounters with an arrangement of stairs.
Yes, I know, this is less comfortable than simply pushing buttons - but I'm sure Quake Guy won't mind the physical exercise. It also allows for some actual gameplay being put on several different height levels. Not very polished yet, but an early glimpse: http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/stairs1.jpg http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/stairs2.jpg New screenshot:
https://i.imgur.com/8mUXAhE.jpg Old for comparison: https://i.imgur.com/5XmCbcl.jpg This is going to take a while. Spipper is displaying the power of multiple iterations of the same scene. Its an amazing thing watching a space transform like this. Keep it up!
If you havent already, join us in our Discord channel! https://discord.gg/VxH9Hzu Spipper: nice!
Chillo: he looks very happy. Knees look a bit knobby for my liking but cool other than that. Slapped together a proper skill selection map leading into The Dreaded Dreadbase of Dread.
I like Trenchbroom's vertex editing. A lot. http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/newstart1.jpg http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/newstart2.jpg http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/newstart3.jpg http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/newstart4.jpg http://maikmerten.de/base1/randomscreens/newstart5.jpg Looks pretty snazzy, the soft fog and warm sky/lighting give it a neat look without feeling arid. Is the bright blue water supposed to stand out that much, though? Assuming it's water, I mean.
Thanks!
The blue water is not exactly intended - it just happens to be the one water texture I currently have (I avoid non-free textures in hopes of going stand-alone sometimes in the future). Whipping up a more muddled water texture shouldn't be a major problem, though. Those outdoor shots looks great, and surprisingly similar to Turok:
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/405820/ss_c0e0ba567f600912f7d76bb76781ab9a15f81aac.1920x1080.jpg?t=1468857285 https://i.amz.mshcdn.com/BMFEwatk8YyYhcDwaAnS7Ca3U-Q=/950x534/filters:quality(90)/2015%2F08%2F27%2F14%2FTurok.e8245.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aDu0CTSR8Dw/maxresdefault.jpg Heh, that's indeed a nice visual coincidence - I think I'll try to sneak in a reference to Turok into the map.
First: lay out all floors and walls as "quadsoup": http://i.imgur.com/FCD8kXi.png
Second: Start pushing vertices around until things look "organic": http://i.imgur.com/X1u4EUy.png Overview after approx. three hours of messing in TrenchBroom: http://i.imgur.com/z5Tb1gS.png The big sky brush marks the +/-4096 limit of unmodified Quake network protocol. I'm expect I'll have to switch to BSP2 before this map is done. Thanks for posting that, SavageX. I've been playing around with natural terrain recently, also mainly using the TB vertex tool, but I haven't settled into a method that works for me yet -- though broadly speaking, I try to do more or less what you have done here. In my experience so far, however, it's tempting to go overboard and end up with an unwieldy mess of overly complex brushwork (something which you seem to have avoided).
Every so often I see people recommending this terrain tutorial by Sock. As I recall, Adib used it when mapping for the Fire & Brimstone jam. The thing is, though, I can't really make much sense of it -- or perhaps I'm missing something? To me it doesn't really look like a tutorial at all. Instead, it starts with what looks like some sort of historical overview of terrain in brush-based engines in general, and then it moves on to a fairly technical discussion of something called DotProduct2 and some stuff that seems specific to the Quake 3 engine and Radiant. I really have trouble picking out the parts that are relevant/helpful to Quake mapping in a different editor than the Radiant family. Or is there a tutorial buried in there somewhere, and have I just never found the right link to click? the dotproduct2 stuff is 'just' q3map2 autogenerating per-vertex alpha values based upon the similarity of the vertex normal and some specified unit vector. And then squaring it (hence the '2').
(dot(A,B) == cos(anglebetweenAandB)*length(A)*length(B)), or in other words, given unit vectors, dotproduct gives 1 when they are equal, 0 when perpendicular, and -1 when opposing, so its quite handy when doing geometry stuff. squaring it biases it towards 0 in a non-linear way, so you don't need such vertical cliffs) combined with a shader that performs alpha blending according to said vertex alphas, this gives different textures appearing based upon how flat that part of the map is meant to be. manually doing all that stuff would take excessive amounts of effort... its worth noting that its all q3map2/q3bsp-specific and doesn't apply at all to q1bsp (which completely lacks vertex alpha values... and shaders). Yeah, Sock's tutorial is certainly covering a lot of things that only apply to Quake 3 (or compatible engines).
I cannot claim to be an authoritative source regarding Quake editing - I'm not a veteran mapper and have yet to properly release a single (!) Quake map (apart from the betas in this thread). I try to adhere to following rules: - Most vertices I only displace on one axis. So if I want to push the rock surface in, I'll grab a vertex and just push that one in exactly according to one axis. I try to make sure my brushes keep quite some volume (no strangely flimsy brushes), which is why I start with 128x128x128 cubes. I can push those around without - I try to keep all vertices on-grid. I certainly make sure all vertices are on integer positions. - be gentle on the floor, don't go as crazy on vertex editing as on rock faces. A few hills and ramps usually work fine, but if you go overboard you can run into collision issues, like players getting stuck on random edges (for Quake 2 and 3 the collision system works quite differently and seems to be overall more robust). I uploaded an example map with sources over at https://maikmerten.de/base1/start-wip.zip - perhaps that's useful for you. However, again, I might do things horribly wrong although they appear to be working fine for me for now ;-) I've been using FraQuake to generate fractal geometry for my Xmas Jam map. (cavewalls) You'll need to run it in a 16bit compatible OS. I'm probably going overboard with the number of polys but you can dial it in to your hearts content. It's a multi-step process. Create a map in the application and then copy and paste what you need from the output. (It adds monsters randomly FYI) I use TB2's CSG merge to weld faces together to create borders. Then add _phong 1 to make the lighting pretty. I'm having fun and I think it looks groovy
https://www.dropbox.com/s/plh6rsopnx3c863/fraquake.zip?dl=0 this is the only screenshot I have access to ATM but it illustrates the fractals well https://imgur.com/d2TGj5E
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