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For this:
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/shamsp1_1.jpg Skill 0 and skill 1 especially. Gimme ur email and I will send the map over. Looking for feedback from a player's perspective about gameplay balance etc. Not from a mapper's perspective as I know it's technically shoddy and chaotic mapping behind the scenes! I know there's issues with 2D-ness, simple layout, lack of detail inside etc etc. Looks old skool Shambler. Raises hand. I dig the simpleness.
And Redfield looks good too. About Drake enemies, why compromise. Use Keep mod and you can have (almost) any enemy. I like the drake mod, and had a really good time blasting through Unforgiven. Except for those like air strafing dragonoid type beings that seem to have the same code as an F-22 Raptor electronic warfare suite.
I am currently using the AD progs as the base for my mod, cause it has all the nifty tricks, and the potential for some Hexen 2 monsters is in there. The map is mainly supposed to feature my new monsters, although I'm not sure how things are going to pan out yet. Don't know if many of you are busy playing maps from 2017 for the Quake awards, but if someone happens to find the time to beta test my newest map, that would be great!
The working title of the map is Amphitheater of Abaddon. It is to be the second map in my miniepisode (see here for more details). The way how the Quad damage works in this map is a little different from the first map, though. In the first map the Quad was permanent but in this one there are multiple normal Quad damages littered over the map (and I was thinking of modifying the first map to work like that, too... maybe). So, I'd like you to play the map and provide me any feedback that comes on your mind for how to improve the map. It would be preferable if you tested all three of the different playstyles (and, optionally, in multiple difficulty levels). You can download the map (source included) here. Just place the map in your id1/maps folder and fire away like a normal custom map. No mods this time around, unlike the first map in the episode. I haven't linked the two maps together yet, so you can't test the two maps in succession. Note, that there are two versions of the map included in the package: an older version that hasn't been gamma corrected and a gamma corrected version (worldspawn has a "_gamma" key with a value of "1.3"). I think the gamma corrected version is more similar in brightness to the original Quake start map, so it may be the better version of the two. I've just gotten so used to the older version, that I'm not sure which I like better, so if you like, you guys could also give your opinion on which version is better. Screenshots: http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa01.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa02.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa03.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa04.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa05.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa06.jpg http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/amphitoa07.jpg To-do list for the map: - Make the necessary modifications for dm. - Fix compilation errors caused by the gamma correction (too many lightstyles on a face). - Add some decorative corpses/gibs. - Implement possible suggestions from beta testers. The map started out incredibly strong. The amphitheater is a really cool concept and it looked great. I was impressed with how you maintained the smooth curvature and symmetry of it all. The area under the stage helped to sell the concept as well. I assume that those were dressing rooms that were locked at first.
The first area that you climb up as ogre grenades rain down upon you was such a neat mechanic. I'll never get tired of people using the high ground ogre in unique fashions such as this. Finally unlocking the main amphitheater area was a groundbreaking moment as you are presented with the scale of it as well as the grenade barrage. It was tricky at first but I learned to avoid too much trouble by constantly pushing forward. I started to become a little disenchanted as I began scaling the audience balconies. Taking the elevator up sometimes put me face to face with an ogre - first a grenade to the face, then chainsawed to death as I had no way of getting past the ogre and no way to go back down. At this point, health and ammo were extremely scarce. I started save scumming in order to make it to the end and even then, it felt too rough. I started to flat out ignore the teleporting scrags and the final vore. On one hand, the final elevator up was interesting with more ogre grenades but if one made it inside the elevator, it was almost impossible to avoid the explosion. The shootable switch that closes the door only helps a tiny bit. I did feel that the first half of the map was pretty perfect though. The ogre placement was spot on. They were exactly the proper distance to cause just enough trouble without feeling unfair. In the amphitheater, I would give the player a way to jump back down when taking the elevators up. Either that or make it so that the ogres are clear from the space immediately in front of the elevator. Also please, please, please give ammo. I really don't even mind scarce health but if I don't have the ammo to kill monsters, then that's a huge problem. I never found a grenade launcher either so those basement zombies were just roaming around freely. I have a demo but I don't think that it recorded much given that I had to reload saves a ton towards the end. I played on skill 2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbwx9ek4gnmcn1k/amphichop.zip?dl=0 The non-gamma corrected version of the map won't load for me in Quakespasm. The version that I played looked fine. I think that the lighting was well done. Will hopefully get a chance to play the map later, I made some quick notes on your screenshots https://imgur.com/a/652whG4
Drew, I sent you an e-mail a moment ago, so you can send your demo to me in the reply message. Thanks in advance for testing! :)
And thank you, Poorchop, for your valuable feedback! Reading it motivates me and makes mapping even more worthwhile. :) Watching your demo was quite thrilling, with all the ammo and health shortages and close calls. Hmm, I thought I HAD tested the map on the middle path with no secrets found, but I guess I hadn't, because I ran out of ammo, too, now that I tested it myself. @~@ Thanks to your feedback and additional testing, I added 40 shells to the map. Now I was able to end the map with around 40 shells and 20-30 nails (if I recall correctly); no secrets, skill 2, no zombies killed. I was also intentionally somewhat wasteful with my shells to allow some misses. Of course, if one finds the grenade launcher, ammo becomes a LOT more plentiful after that. And don't forget that this is the second map of the episode, so the player could very well be stocked up with shells, nails and even a grenade launcher from the get-go. Based on your feedback and some additional testing I've done, I've uploaded beta version 2 of the map: Download here Changes from beta 1: - Added 40 shells and 15 health. - Made a torch illusionary, so the player won't hit their head in it when using an elevator. - Added a killtarget trigger for some some monsterjump triggers to ease movement of a fiend. - Prevented ogres from getting right in front of an elevator in the amphitheater. Sorry, I forgot to reply to your message in my previous post. Thanks for the notes! I had actually thought about the roof indentation, but wasn't sure if it was worth the trouble.
Maybe try out the beta version and then give me an update on the previous notes, whether you think they're still relevant after seeing the map live. But man those screenshots look great. I'll be keeping tabs on this one!
Here's my second demo of the middle path. Sloppy playing (I actually died a few times before this due to being careless) but I was trying to run through fairly quickly. The ammo situation was good, as was the health. The center path is at a point now where it's challenging but completely fair. My only complaint was the fiend that sneaks out from behind the wall at the top of the first area you climb. I died there on an earlier attempt because I didn't have enough time to react to the wall opening behind me, and fiends hit hard.
It's hard to gauge the difficulty at this point since I mostly remembered what to expect but even then, it was still pretty tough. That's fine though - players who want an easier time can lower the difficulty. I tried a bit of the quad path but I didn't get too far with it yet. I also managed to find the grenade launcher this time and it made the map way easier. I'll try to check out the right path as well. It's a cool concept to give the players three major variations of playing the same map. https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp43o7ykrglj6st/amphichop2.zip?dl=0 Thanks for testing again, Poorchop! :) Some highlights from your replay:
- Knights ganging up against a vore. - Finding the GL. Yaay, good job! :) - Killing with a single grenade three bumbling knights flailing their swords in vain against a shambler. - Trying to reach the silver key with a trick jump. Believe me, I did my best to make it as difficult as possible! >:D I've been able to get to the dangling beams on the other side but not quite able to find a way to climb to the key itself (if I recall correctly). - The two final fiends accidentally charging at each other, inadvertently killing the other one in a hilarious slapstick comedy fashion! xD Too bad you didn't quite figure out the fountain room secret. I was so rooting for you to find it! :'( There's also a secret the location of which will probably become more clear to the player who tries to clear the map following the Quad path. About the difficulty: Yeah, after watching your first demo and feedback, the idea of suggesting playing the map in normal difficulty did cross my mind. After all, skill 2 is supposed to be HARD difficulty, and the map sure is pretty tough in that difficulty. Sure, it may be tougher than most id maps at that difficulty, but this map is tough even with modern control schemes. So maybe I should add a disclaimer to the readme that hard really means hard for this map. I'm wondering about the fiend. Should I have the fiend first make its presence known to the player by aggroing it with a trigger and only after a second long delay, or so, the monster closet would open. Does the ambush feel unfair otherwise? o: I guess otherwise the middle path starts to look pretty finished. Thanks for your help! :) Overall I thought it was great, my favorite part was the gold key room with the vores at the bottom. I thought the invisibility ring path was interesting, ring respawn points were chosen well. The final elevator with the ogres raining on you was clever too! Some critique:
The area where the walls lower to reveal death knights was a bit much, I think a lesser enemy or enemy combo would be more interesting. I feel that the death knight is tedious to fight because of their high HP, putting one after another made that area a chore for me. Entering the Shambler room was instadeath in every way I managed to approach it. Quad path was boring for me since I didn't find any weapons. Anyway, here are some demos: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ir5ipxHUNNTvkPGsOI1cyZM8gxOsaT9w This isn't the first time I've seen your demos but I must say, you're one skilled player! O_O
Demo 1: Wow, that was nerve-racking to watch, and you got so close to the ending, too, and on a blind run to boot! You were on the brink of death there quite a number of times, and in the end being down to just one hp at that one point! You have a super aggressive playstyle, rushing headlong into the hotzone! Like jumping down to the vores in the gk room, running to the middle of the amphitheater with the shambler, and the most ridiculous of all, juggling yourself along three shamblers to get a yellow armor! O_O Your strategy of minimizing ammo usage by resorting to the axe from time to time was also interesting to observe. Seeing you pick up a quad damage prematurely was heartbreaking to watch. D': I was also worried seeing you pick up shells, while being almost stocked up already, but it seemed like you had the ammo situation pretty well taken care of. An interesting point was seeing you being able to get up the elevator at the shambler room, while they were still alive; something that I had intended to make as difficult as possible, so congrats on "breaking" the map at that point. ;D I was kind of wondering, if you had forgotten about the elevator in the long corridor close to the vore. That elevator would have taken you to the second floor a lot more safely than trying to use the elevator in the shambler room. As with the Subterrestrial Hangar, I wanted to keep the map somewhat challenging even on the quad path, which is why other weapons are hidden and nail boxes have been drastically decreased. A nailgun would be possible to find in a secret early on, though. You did find the first button to unlock the secret. Demo 2: Nice work there! For some reason I hadn't actually thought about the player going through the shambler room while following the ring path, so using that route certainly made the map even shorter that way. :D Demo 3: Hmm, you were also caught off-guard by the fiend ambush at the ogre tower climb room, were you not? Do you think I should add an invisible clip wall to prevent the fiend from immediately lunging at you after being aggroed? That would give the player a little more time to react to the fiend. Demo 4: Really fun to watch! I liked how you just danced and toyed with your enemies in the gold key room. I can see why you liked that room the most. About the shambler room being instadeath: That's kinda the way it's designed to be. :D It's indended to be either carefully cleared on the quad path by taking potshots from behind the door or then by the crusher button up the elevator. And uuuuuh, after seeing your ring of shadows run, apparently by sneaking past the shamblers altogether! :D I can see you were prepared for the fiend ambush before the GK room this time. But I'd rather have it be possible for the player to react to it on his/her blind run, so maybe I should add a temporary invisible barrier to add some time to react... About the tedious death knights: I think this demo demonstrates quite nicely why I went with death knights, because they can still keep harassing the player with their flame attack from down below if the player decides to ignore them altogether. That way the player has two directions to be aware of: both up and down. But yeah, maybe I could drive that point across with fewer death knights too. Maybe have them appear only the first and maybe the second time... As a bit of trivia, in earlier versions of the GK room, the player could get stuck in the ramp corners really easily. There was discussion on the issue not that long ago, actually, in the Quakespasm thread. To make the ramps smooth to traverse in that engine, I had the slopes fall one quake unit short of reaching the plateaus and having the player instead climb a step of 1 unit. I did add some illusionary brushes to give the illusion of a perfectly smooth climb, though. </the more you know> Demo 5: A nice run. It was cool to see the chaos as you mostly just ran past your opposition before reaching the gold key door. It was also interesting to see how you were so bent on trying to get through the shambler room, going so far as to first rush to the lever, then stock up on health and then take the elevator again, but it seems the ogres were less willing to let you keep the health you had gone to accumulate. Thanks for the insightful and entertaining demos! :) I think I just might decrease the amount of death knights in the ogre tower climb room and allow the player a bit more time to react to the fiend. In case somebody would still like to test the map, here you can download the third beta version of the map. I think, unless I get more feedback, I'd consider the single player portion of the map more or less complete. While waiting for possible feedback I'll work on dm modifications.
Changes from beta 2: - Replaced two death knights with four knights to lessen tedium. - Increased the chances of a player to react to a fiend ambush. - Compiled sunlight2 with 1000 sunsamples to improve sky lighting quality a bit. The way I see it, the quad path could be an opportunity for a more run&gun approach, where the ring path is the opposite. I think throwing more beefy enemies and weapons along with the quads could make it pretty chaotic. Maybe something borderline horde-ish as a quad path.
sorry but I don't seem to have received the email, or I may have accidentally deleted it or something.
Drew, did you check the spam folder in your Gmail? It could have very well ended up in there. o: Look for a message with the title "Your demo on the Amphitheater of Abaddon".
About the run n' gun approach: I think changing the quad path to include beefier monsters and weapons would require a bit too much of an overhaul at this point of development to make the change worth it for me. Plus, unlike in the Subterretrial Hangar, the premise in this map is to keep the core level more or less the same with the same monsters on each of the paths. Adding additional/beefier monsters for the quad path would break that premise, and in the Subterrestrial hangar I hated having to resort to telefragging monsters that are not encountered in other paths (to make it possible to get 100 % kills at the end of the map). Speaking of the Subterrestrial Hangar, one can finish the map with an SSG, NG, GL, 100 shells, 130 nails, 25 rockets (and an RA if one finds the toughish secret), and with a little bit of testing I just did, I think the arsenal allows for some nice cathartic quad path action, while still keeping the map somewhat challenging. So perhaps I COULD add at least an SSG to the quad path without making it too easy...
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