|Posted by metlslime on 2002/12/23 18:27:46|
|This is the place to post screenshots of your upcoming masterpiece and get criticism, or just have people implore you to finish it. You should also use this thread to post beta versions of your maps.
Need a place to host your screenshots? Upload them here:
[[[CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A NEW PASSWORD FOR THIS AS THIS ONE IS UTTERLY FUCKING ANNOYING]]]
File size limit is 128MB.
I especially like the vibes in the prison screenshot and the preceding screenshot.
Thanks for the positiv comments.
More neon labells are in work. :)
Slowly But Steady
i'm mapping, adding a thousand shortcuts and broken tiles along the way.
Thats a screeneffect you see in shot 2, by transparency.
i also uploaded another noclip shot which i wont link now because the weather is just nuts here and idc.
take your time. looks wonderful and worth the wait
Looking Great As Always Mfx!
Looks amazing mfx. Can't wait to play, your maps so far have been some of my favorites of all time.
Rockwork Looks Great In That First Shot.
how far along is this approx?
I have several maps In the works, need to figure out how to tie them together.
Episode or just hub style.
2023's gonna be an awesome year for quake!
Nice System Shock 1 Beds There GunSgtHighway!
Looks nice, bit dark in some places though.
My first map, a super short techbase thing. I learned a lot!
trainstation.bsp, used progs_dump which is included.
Sweet Looking Shots
congrats on the first release
I'll d/l this tonight and take a spin.
For a first Quake map it's really beautiful and highly detailed. Most importantly, it's fun. I loved the floor grates etc. Quick little map on the easy side, nice usage of the progs. I believe yours is the first single release using progs_dump.(?) There have been two jams already but this is how I intended the devkit to be used. So thanks for trying it out and congrats on the results!
If you are planning to revise this, my only suggestion is the ammo balance is a bit off. There are sections where I ran out of ammo but I am a pretty terrible player.
Here's a demo
that should be compatible with Quakespasm.
Thanks, I really appreciate seeing how people approach my map. Got another demo on discord and I can see what worked and what didn't.
Great first release. It's indeed a tad easy, but there were moments I was low on supplies, and after clearing a room I got some breathing space to restock. Good atmosphere and overall theme, although the monsters weren't that varied, but meh - base maps right. You've given me more reasons to finally finish map_1a_final_2b_final_final_forreal.bsp
Hey, I've been working on this Deathmatch map for a while now and I think it's finally ready for some public feedback. It has reaper bot included so once you move your PAK files to Id1 you should be able to just play from the shortcuts, no friends required. Also Explore has no bots so you can just look around and practice your sick trick jumps.
I also want to thanks to the Trenchbroom community and especially their discord channel for putting up with my questions and just being awesome.
Please let me know what you think, I'm really open to any feedback you have. I'm new to quake mapping so I'm sure there are some embarrassing mistakes for you to find. Let me know and I will fix them as soon as I can.
Seems you're the first to find out. :)
Can't say if the room is to dark. On my screen the lightbalance looks ok.
On old Monitors I would calibrate my RGB-settings.
Do you have any idea to do this on modern flatscreens?
Recently got back into mapping for Quake. Last time I did anything like this was probably back in 2000.
I have been working on and off for the last 2 weeks on a Duel / 2on2 / FFA map using only the Metal.wad.
I've always been a fan of DM4 by American McGee and it started out with a lot of inspiration from that.
As things went on, it changed a lot!
I've uploaded the map to Quaketastic and would love some feed back.
Weapon / item placement
Lighting (gamma 1)
Any modifications to the layout to better the flow of the map.
A Link That Works!
I don't see any fog in your screenshots but if you added it after those were taken it is waaaaay to strong.
Jus' thought I'd let you know.
QS shows density as 0.600000
I See What Happened.
From your map:
"fog" "0.600000 0.500000 0.400000"
A single line fog command is formatted as such:
"fog" "Density | Red | Green | Blue"
DM4 is a good look! I'm sure McGee would approve!
Fimmy, I forgot that I recorded a first-run demo of your trainstation map. Better late than never?
Demo is here.
It's protocol 666 (QuakeSpasm default), Nightmare skill.
I wouldn't normally do a first run on Nightmare, but IIRC the readme made it clear that there wouldn't be a difference between Easy/Normal/Hard, so I figured that if I played Nightmare, I'd at least have the faster monster attacks to keep it challenging.
It was a really nice map! Short and sweet. With the textures and theme, it felt like a good Quake 2 map, but with some modern design sensibilities and attention to detail.
Random points of constructive criticism / feedback:
* The first secret felt rather too easy.
* The medieval knights felt out of place in the high-tech setting.
* The grenade launcher felt like it should have counted as a secret.
But those were minor things and overall this was a very positive play. It felt like it could have been the first map of a Quake 2 style episode, and I would have been happy to play the rest of that episode.
Keep up the good work!
New Map For QuakeWorld 1v1/2v2: The Catalyst
Thjs map is fantastic!
There are about 48 textures missing (message in the console while loading the map).
I noticed a missing texture on the side of the last door (exit slipgate).
I believe the lava texture could be much better. Currently, it's looking like vomit (low res orange-yellow lava texture).
Also, the texture used on the teleporter could be better. It is too low res!
Also, once we fall on some parts, there's no way to get back. Especially on the large pipe under a floor. It's looking like hiding some secrets, but we can't walk on the pipe.
Despite these first crittics, the map is awesome! Nice new ideas in there.
That Looks Fucking Ace In The Shots!!
Looks very interesting
Not Used To Hard
So these demos are going to be frustrating to watch. But beautiful, stunning brushwork, texturing and lighting! I think you will see a lot of areas where game play could be improved. I was cheesing enemies form a distance much of the time and that's kinda of boring BUT I think you can get this baby purring with some tweaks.
I love this map.
The design is awesome. the interior and used textures in colour and dimension look great. The whole level with its big rooms feels great to play. A little more contrast on lights and shadows would give the map more depth and make the structures mightier.
Beta Map Neonquake
Have a little sideproject called neonquake.
This mod was created with progs_dump and has a START map.
For now there's one episode with 7 levels platform jumping.
Three different games are planed. Number two is in progress. Two more episodes for the first game are in work.
It's a bit repetitious but I got hooked and wanted to conquer the 7 levels. Do you have any plans to make other "flying" blocks for the player to dodge? I think that would add more of a challenge.
Also, do you have lookspring defaulting to on in this? And I noticed something about jumping forward too.
Nice! Bearing in mind that I'd already got the hang of the gameplay from playing that one map with the train issue, I didn't have any problems getting through the other maps.
The arcade machine in the start map was cute. I liked the appropriately-retro music, and that the music gets more frantic as you progress.
I'm seconding dumptruck_ds' sentiment that the gameplay is a bit repetitive, but on the other hand it didn't take long to play through that first episode. I guess more variety could be included in the second and third episodes?
I noticed a few purely technical issues:
* The zip file contains a copy of your config.cfg file; I'd strongly suggest removing that, because it'll cause players' settings to be overwritten by your own settings. I expect this is why dumptruck_ds was having the issue with lookspring.
* There are a couple of files with uppercase characters in the names; this can cause issues for players using operating systems that use case-sensitive file systems. It's better to make all files have lowercase names. Relevant files are "GSH_neonquake" and "START.bsp". The "map" key of the trigger_changelevel in ep17 would also need to be changed from "START" to "start" to match.
* In the first three maps, the edge of the first big train pokes through the wall after it stops moving, so the player can cheat by standing on that until the end.
* In ep16, the curved corners at the edges of the map don't line up with the outer walls (look to the left/right on map start to see).
* In ep17, the player can trigger the "You succeed" message early if they aggressively jump forward across the platforms. This could be solved by putting the trigger behind the door to the exit, or by making it so the message is triggered when the door opens instead of when the player touches a trigger.
* ep17 ends with an intermission screen, but the map doesn't contain an info_intermission for the camera view, so the viewpoint just defaults to the info_player_start, which isn't a very good view.
Hope this is useful. Keep at it!
Looking For A Skin Tailor
Not so familiar with the seize and behaviour of the chasm monsters.
Can you please some quake monsters along side them to see how they fit together?
Chasm's AI is pretty garbage, so I think simply watching the gameplay and getting in close enough will do.
Yes theres repetivity. In the first way I had to learn how to place blocks. In the second I want players to get used to the sorts of blocks.
I have plans for shootable blocks and walls to walk and maybe three levels of platforms for using the 3rd dimension to.
Dodgable Blocks would also bee nice and I'm working on that. Have to find out how to stop a player stopping all trains by getting in between a train and a wall.
what do you think about lookspring and strafeing? Should it be activated?
Yes the repetivity is in it. I had to learn how to use the trains and look forward to create more interesting levels from now.
Thanks for the technical hints too. I'm fixing that.
Looking forward for a more cleaner episode two. :)
What do you think about smaller trains?
I also think about a shorter starting platform.
Now its 6 Units. What about 3 to 4?
I'm not sure what you mean by the starting platform being 6 units?
As far as smaller trains... if you mix them in with larger trains in more advanced levels why not?
Also I wonder if you could use the code from func_fall in some way? Those are platforms that fall out from under the player and fade away. Newly released in 1.1.0 You'd likely have to combine a train with that code the way the mod works. Also in 1.1.0 there is metlslime's "retrigger" spawnflag for func_trains. I bet you could put this to good use in this mod.
The models from Chasm_theRift contain as double as much frames as the Quake asset. They also have more extra subroutines like victory and shout. Here some screens of howfar I've come.
haha, they fit very well together.
The chasm monsters still do not have AI?
Madfox, can I share the video on another site?
If they didn't had IA they wouldn't appear in game.
Share whatever you want.
Can you make an video on you fighting a chasm monster?
Or chasm and quake monster fight each other?
i love that color palette
Poor Man's Luck
I'm fighting a chasm
Looks more as it is fighting me!
Can you make a yhe1
demo and show how you fight them?
It said H-scor.mdl not found
Some screenshots from Quake Mapping Discord.
Yes, I thought I had disabled it.
Here is a better one.
It is good, although I think an analog for the stratos weapon can be found in quake malice
Do you still have the links to that site of panserkreuzer?
I'm searching for the monster sounds, but I can't find them.
Thanks for the screenshots. The Heresy one looks particularly interesting, but probably will need to put something after the door or block more of the door frame with it
Madfox, one other thing, the faust's rocket can homing in, so you may want to check the code of the Quoth or AD rocketeer
The stratos also has a kick attack when he is close to the player
Lame attacks, small amount routines
My qc isn't the hat of the wizard, for sofar I'm comparing the seize, not the attack or weapons.
Some parts of the poseframes in the models look almost identical.
Here's a kinky wmv of the collected chasm_entity file. I've managed to get the skin as close as possible, but it leans on chasm.pal still. I am surprised the odd skin file 64x1010 won't crash qmdl.
I'm not sure the seize of the creatures is proper. The comparisment between the two games is rather large. All textures are twice as big,
the entities I made 0.25 smaller. Worm is a mystery to me.
Looking at the seperate frame poses there are a lot of doubles in the attack and pain frames. Stratos has three identical pain poses,the fourth is a repeat of the shoot pose.
In quake they act kind of slow, as I used all available frames, reason the pain pose is too slow. At the point of the qc I have still my doubts. :P
Looks Amazing, Madfox!
These fit into Quake so well!
Can't wait until they're all up and running ingame :)
As a matter of fact I can use some help as I'm feeling everyone wants a chasm quake mod, but I'm the donkey that carrots.
So far I've got the models in Quake running, but only on "notarget" function. If you have any ideas here is a devkit with the results.
There is still a lot to be done before all subroutines are cleaned up. For some I have a solution, but there are a lot of double poses in them.
To be done:
- stripping the frames for double action.
- adding the attack pain and death qc.
- eventually change the weapons.
- adjusting the sound files.
- making maps for it with the chasm.wad
.., forgot the deadguy.
haha fifth, can we count on you to make a map for it when this is done?
I think the turrent is missing
faust skin taller than 480?
I Hate Turrets!
Reason my subcouncious fragged it. If you had read the reade you see all skins are 64x1010.
The viewport in Quake is larger than in Chasm compared to the texture. In quake you can't slip that easy aside corners with a streetlamp.
It's a solid maybe
I can't run it in quakespasm, gives me the faust error
I think it's in models as a static.
What is the statement of the faust error?
The error was faust skin taller than 480
I was afraid of something like that, 64x1010 is much too large. Can you open faust in a modeleditor?
But you were clearly able to open it in quakespasm.092.2 rss admod
I thought the skin limets were 300xwhatever, although quakespasm_spike_ad these limits were crossed.
can you upload the quakespasm_spike_ad?
I tried chasm_quake_dev01 out on a win98 computer with winquake and it runs fine.
Or This One
No, I mean the program directly from your computer.
I tried again, quakespasm give me the faust skin error
It looks as if the entity wants to attack you.
Mod will only work when using no target as soon as the game starts.
Got it, thanks, the skin is much better now
After I took the time to seperate each model to import it as a common sized skin file, it really took time to evaluate the 64x1010 chasm skin. This is an odd size anyway.
It only could get more bad before I realized Noesis converts them to mdl with the according skin.
Looking at Faust eyepiece I don't think I could reproduce it on 300x200.
I wonder if there is a way to extract the 64x1010 file.
It seems I need more knowledge of the UV filter.
I don't think the skin file size is a big issue, as the regular quakesapsm could just expand its limits.
I also tested it on Aguirre's engine, works fine there also
What about the size of the entities?
In Chasm I'm not further than the second level, so I'm not that experienced.
All I can do is compare the two games and it looks as if all y-axes are somehow " shrinked".
You mean the size of chasm monsters compared to quake monsters?
The comparishment between the way chasm monsters appear in Chasm and how they look in Quake. I think of a mincer and a goblin with a smaller bbox than fire height, or should I look to an orc on eyesight or look up at it.
Are you worried that the height will affect the monsters attacks?
Also, where is the skeleton and the final boss of the addon? I do not see him in the loko video
I Think This Is A Bit Off Topic?
Maybe a dedicated Chasm mod thread is in order?
or move it to Modelling Help
I made all chasm entities seized between a quake ogre and rotweiler.
I seized the Worm like Shambler.
Maybe they should be more ponounced.
Maybe you'te right. I never started a new toppic, maybe time to do so.
As long as the chasm monsters can attack the player properly, I don't see how size is a big issue.
Lords Of Chaos - Initial Screens
It's been about 20 years since I last made any level for Quake. After a long hiatus, I made a Doom 2 WAD (DK Shrine - Remastered) released earlier this year, and I've moved on to Quake.
I never thought I made a Quake level which I would consider 'good'. Lords of Chaos I hope will fill the gap. A large level, which will be more about exploration and ambiance, with a horror theme. I'm using dumptruck ds's progs_dump, but apart from that, and some textures from 3rd party wads, its a classic Quake experience.
I'm over halfway done, as most of the map is fleshed out, just needing details and gameplay elements thrown in.
Those shots look properly menacing. Good luck. LMK if you need help with pd_ and also, we're working on 1.1.2 right now. It has some bug fixes and a handful of features. Not sure when it will be ready. Hopefully days, not weeks.
Good luck on Lords of Chaos.
Yeah I like those touches of color. Really helps in a metal theme map. Reminds me of jam3_ionous just a bit.
I like the arches especially.
While we are waiting for Lords of Chaos, do check out DK Shrine from Borax Man. Its a great set of Doom 2 maps with good gameplay and interesting non-linear layouts.
For anyone interested in DK Shrine, be sure to get the "Remastered" version and not the 1996 version.
Looks nice, and I'm pleased that you've strayed from using solely the standard 'metal' texture set and done something a little more original.
Except base enemy and knights together = totally unacceptable. I like the blend of map styles tho.
You're probably gonna have to live with it. I mean the whole idea of the map is tech+medieval style anyway, so it would be weird to *not* mix monster types.
Nice looking shots. The lighting feels flat but not terrible. I agree the theme mix feels pretty fresh here.
Base And Enemy Knights
@Shambler. I disagree, they can work together, as long as the mapper creates the right context.
I don't see why user created levels have to stick to any rules or themes used in the original Quake. I prefer to see mappers not limit themselves to specific texture sets or styles.
Use Tech Knight Models!
from Operation Urth Majic
Gotta keep Shambler happy.
base enemy and knights together = totally unacceptable.
It's literally right there.
There's more precedent in the original game for mixing Grunts and Knights than putting Knights in runic.
That's Part Of A Mistaken Mishmash Under The Guise Of Quake Having...
...a coherent story. We have now transcended that with stronger thematic adherence.
There was nothing mistaken about the monster order of appearance once the final episodic structure was settled.
Dis Gon Be Gud
The grunts are just possessed by the entity known as "quake" in the story, so there is no reason why this entity wouldn't just mix his new recruits up with his old knight fellas without sparing a second thought.
What shums is alluding to is a question of personal taste, of no more validity than an objection to certain texture combinations.
The Hipnotic mission pack did a lot more of this if I recall.
The Hipnotic mission pack did a lot more of this if I recall.
Yep and there's nothing wrong with it if you justify it with a Slipgate pad as otp alluded to.
Custom Levels Are Just That, Custom
Zerstorer if I recall correctly did this?, as did a few good maps in the 90s. I don't remember anyone caring back then, and in the Doom modding community, there aren't such rules. It is as kinn said, just preference masquerading as a rule.
Personally, I like when authors follow their own style and do something original, and don't stick to a predefined iD style. lpowells screens look great, and the style seems to work.
I Do Get Where He's Coming From
Base and Medieval enemies can be used together, but there needs to a reason why. A portal within a research lab where hell knights are coming through makes perfect sense.
Thanks for the comments everyone. @dumptruck_ds, thanks for the comment about the lighting; getting the right Quakey contrast is something I really need to work on.
It's detrimental to gameplay (enemy variety) to refuse to use base enemies in otherworldy settings for "thematic reasons". But even thematically it doesn't make logical sense. Why can Ranger travel through the slipgates, but the grunts can't? Is there an anti-grunt forcefield? It's perfectly reasonable to imagine grunts traveling through slipgates to act as backup.
It's detrimental to gameplay (enemy variety) to refuse to use base enemies
If it's the mapper's choice to not use base enemies, then it ain't detrimental to jack shit, mr anonymous.
Let's try not to confuse "what mapper wants to do" with "what people are telling mapper to do".
@lpowell I was just going to add to dumptruck_ds's comment about the lighting. At the moment from the screen shots, you can see the light spheres around obvious light sources (especially in the 3rd screen shot), but there isn't much to break the lighting up or give it a different flow and direction. It looks good now, but it would look better if you thought more about lighting in terms of how the architecture would cast shadows on itself, how light might flow from area to area, how light might flow out of a brighter area into a darker larger area (for example, having light spill out of a doorway or hallway). Let the architecture shape the lighting more. Doing this also increases the visual detail.
For Those Not On Discord
I have been farting around in trenchbroom recently (it's been a while)...
I've been pottering away at it, though it's slow going now that Outer Worlds has been released.
Fifth, that kind of fart would tear a butthole to shreds but what a visual stun ! Such a beautiful spiky-curvy shaped menace. Love it. Can't wait !
butthole shreds ahoy
Any People Up For Playtesting?
I'm looking for playtesters for my first map in Quake! I have tested it a bit with people inexperienced with the game, but I'd love to hear what you guys think. Mostly looking for some absolutely brutal
I have here
a skill 1 demo for you (i usually play 2 but i have not played in a few years ...).
About your map i like the original style, the interconnectivity and exploration, and variety on looks and rooms. You are going into the right direction.
On the things to get better:
- Lighting is dull, while low contrast lighting is nice i think you have gone too far in that direction. The good part of it is that it hides secrets a lot better.
- In general it feels like the scale is a bit small and it is easy to get stuck on columns, but as the map is easy at least on skill 1 it poses no problem.
- Those two silver key doors at the beginning should not be marked for, as they open without a key later, which can be misleading.
- You may want to add a silver or gold key texture like in id maps to make it obvious for everyone they are for that. It can lead to misunderstanding and people getting lost.
- That ring of shadows probably needs to count as a secret.
- Those crates you saw me looking on while on top of them need the textures to be aligned, but it also seems that all of them have the wrong size compared with the texture they use.
- You should probably put a non invisible wall on top of that rooftop or any other mechanic.
- Theres too many green armours, even for skill 1, but better too much than too few.
- You will probably receive complains here because the map is non-linear, but i do think you should pay no attention to them.
- You probably saw how those enemies telefragged themselves at the end ...
@lpowell @FifthElephant @oprel, And A Little Of My Own Work
@lpowell I like those screenshots, they look nice. Good lighting and QUAKE style brush architecture.
@FifthElephant - I love heavy, dark, metal, spikey stuff! When I see something like this I know it is not friendly world but evil unknown dimension.
@oprel Good architecture on screenshots, as Cocerello said maybe the lighting is a little to flat in some place but generally looks for good work.
After 10 years pause in QUAKE maps I back and play around with architectures and light. If you like see, here are my playgrounds:
Interesting Stuff AA
Seems like you're doing a lot of experimenting with brushes. I'd recommend also recommend experimenting with layouts and monster placement too, make blockouts and then use your brush experiments to detail up the map afterwards.
I am loving these. Keep going!
Great looking stuff!
@FifthElephant @dumptruck_ds @mfx
Oh, thank you very much for good words!
I remember very well quad shadow from original QUAKE map "Gloom keep" it's still impresive look. I redesinged the quad shape, it's not perfect, but keeps grid and looks not bad.
interesting stuff again, feels like a cross between Q1 Episode 4 and Quake 3.
Lords Of Chaos - Beta Version
A beta version of Lords of Chaos is available for those who are willing to playtest it for me.
I request that anyone who downloads the file not distribute it. I also request that ONLY those who are going to play this for testing purposes, download and test it. If you just want to have a look, wait until the final version please. It won't be far away.
The level is almost done. All that is left to do, is fine tuning of the gameplay, which may depend on feedback, and some more tuning of the lighting.
This requires a port with BSP2 support.
This level is on the larger side (about 340 enemies and a play time of 45 minutes to an hour). It is quite non-linear (though you shouldn't be able to skip sections), requires a little bit of exploration and planning. Ammo and health aren't always placed in front of you, and you may have to choose between looking for more ammo and looking for a fight.
In the level, you have to summon and kill seven Chaos Lords. As each Chaos Lord falls, more of the level opens up. But they aren't summoned right where you are standing, you have to hunt them down!
The link is here.
Please read the included text file.
@BoraxMan Just A Few Things...
Why is there a "pak0.pak" file IN the "pak0.pak" file!?
Also there's a "config.cfg" file in your "pak0.pak" file, which should never be there.
I'm continuing on...
Cool! I'll give this a spin and let you know how I get on.
I'll Fix The PAK
Thanks damange_inc for pointing that out. Explains why the file is so large!
That probably has to do with a utility I'm testing to create PAK files. I'll have to modify it so it doesn't include the files its creating as part of the files to add.
The 'config.cfg' shouldn't be there. I'll fix the PAK when I next can.
PAK File Fixed
Ive re-uploaded locbeta.zip with a fixed PAK file. It should no longer have the config.cfg and other superfluous files.
Redownload using the same link I gave in the original announcement of the beta.
Looking forward to playing this and seeing what you did with progs_dump.
@BoraxMan A Few Moar Things!
I've no idea how many CL's I've defeated... might be cool to create a "shrine" where as you defeat them heads are placed so the player can always tell how many? Or have the player "aquire" the heads and have to go place them?
Also I might be stuck? The level is pretty much cleared, 300/"about 340" and my only option is to grenade jump to a "gold key", upon doing that I hear a CL appear but working my way to him and killing him does not do much and doesn't really feel like this was the intended way.
I even noclipped out of desperation.
The exit needs better protection ;) Unless ofc that was your intention :-P
A new version of pd_ is coming with custom keys and some updates to breakables.
Not sure of a timeline, but likely a couple of weeks at the most. Not sure if this would have an impact on this project. Seeing how big it is I won't have time to play it until Tuesday at the earliest. I'll definitely record demos of this.
I actually thought of a mechanic where you have to bring their heads to an altar, but it might appear weird to have their heads there, because it still appears on the model which is supposed to be now decapitated. Also, its less about just getting all 7 and more about finding the relevant one to destroy, to progress. I could add some QC code and a new model...
I tried to balance the complexity of the 'puzzle solving' with simplicity in layout so the only real backtracking is in seeking the CLs. Not sure yet whether I succeeded, and maybe the sequence of events you need to complete is too convoluted and its too onerous on the player.
Did you find the 2nd silver key, and 2nd silver key door? They aren't far from each other, both in areas just off that room you get to at the end of the corridor which was originally blocked by the ball of flesh. Once you hit the switch in the 2nd silver key room, the 7th CL appears nearby and the door which leads to the gold key (at the end of the long bridge) opens up when he is killed.
From there, you can finally complete the task mentioned in the message at the exit gate. Any additional beasties which just appear from here on in are now only there to give you a hard time and are not involved in the gameplay setup ;)
I'll better protect the exit gate...
Last thing, which I realized I DO need to change, past the gold key door, you find a grave. Destroy the grave. That needs to be more obvious.
Brace yourself, because I've uploaded my first-run demos, totalling over two-and-a-half hours of gameplay, here
. All demos are on Hard skill and are Protocol 666 (QuakeSpasm default).
However, before I was able to play the map, I had to work around a show-stopping issue which I haven't encountered before. When I tried to start the map with QuakeSpasm, the engine would immediately crash, without giving an error message and with nothing useful in the log file. By a process of elimination, I worked out that the crash was being caused by the skybox. In the .bsp file, the "sky" field of the worldspawn entity is as follows:
I had a quick look at the engine source code, and long story short, it appears that a "sky" string more than 31 characters long will cause a buffer overflow (which may or may not cause the engine to crash, depending on platform). The "sky" string in this case is 33 characters.
I haven't 100% confirmed this because I'm not set up to build QuakeSpasm from source right now, but it looks to me like that's what's going on.
To work around the issue, I moved the "purple_chaos_*.tga" files up a level (out of "env/skybox_purple_chaos" into "env") and updated the "sky" string to just "purple_chaos_". That made it short enough to avoid the crash, and I could play the map!
This was my first attempt. I finished after about five minutes by accidentally going into the exit portal early. I guess this is the same thing damage_inc was getting at above.
This was my second attempt. I died after about five minutes.
This was my third attempt. This time I finished the map by collecting the rune and unlocking the exit, ending with 315/342 kills and 5/7 secrets in 94:51 (!!!) minutes. However, this still wasn't a "proper" run because I failed to find (I think) two of the Chaos Lords.
This run went off the rails somewhere in the middle. It seems like I did an accidental sequence-break by jumping through a window and falling down into an area I wasn't supposed to be able to reach at that time, skipping the fifth Chaos Lord. I guessed what I'd done, and after a while I backtracked so I could attempt to play the level "properly".
However, after I went back, I couldn't find the fifth Chaos Lord, so I couldn't kill him to remove the bars protecting one of the silver keys. I haven't re-watched this demo in full, but in retrospect, what I guess happened is that I failed to find the button which I now know "summons" the fifth Lord. However, during the run, I didn't understand that there was a button that I was supposed to find. What I thought had happened was that I'd somehow broken the map by doing that sequence-break! In the end, I salvaged the situation by grenade-jumping to the gold key (it sounds like damage_inc had the same idea) and then played "properly" from there.
I'm sure you'll be able to tell from the demo that I struggled massively with progression in this map; it might even be that I struggled more with progression in this map than any other Q1SP I've played. Even after I pushed a button or killed a Chaos Lord, I often felt like I didn't know where I was supposed to go next. I ended up wandering around a lot. I tried to include comments in the demo as I went along: hopefully that'll give you an idea what was going through my head.
This was my fourth attempt, and the first time I managed to complete the map "properly", ending with 340/342 kills and 5/7 secrets in 67:03 minutes.
TBH, it was an *enormous* map: I've typed a lot, but there's a lot more that could be said in terms of feedback. While hunting out the last two secrets, I also found more bugs which aren't in the demos. I could do with going over the map again and putting together a list. I'll aim to do that sometime in the next few days when I have time.
In the meantime, hope the above comments and the demos are helpful!
Thanks for the feedback, greatly appreciated. I admit the map is much larger than originally intended, and perhaps it should have been two levels. I might either have to simplify the flow, put more information, or divide the level into two parts.
As for Quakespasm, it didn't crash for me. I'm using Linux, so perhaps this issue doesn't affect the Linux client?
I'll check out the demos tonight.
My Experience Is Almost Identical To IW's
But I will add a few points.
I'm on Win7/Quakespasm and didn't have any issues with the skybox, odd.
The first flesh wall to come down should have the player LOOKING at the wall...
Maybe a bit more visual effects too?
The first button you press is like generic "some bars somewhere bars have been released"!
Maybe say "The fiends from hell have been released", so the player knows exactly what is going on?
Also, I can kill the fiends at the start?
By the time I had 47 baddies slain I was just about out of ammo and health. Then I seemed to recover and have it happen again... several times. It's a huge map and this will be hard for every player so, maybe it was just me.
After killing the Seventh CL... seems odd I have to kill more! I didn't really like that.
I think I "missed" the second silver door cuz 1) I'm bad at that in Quake and 2) the torches kind of cover up the silver key symbols.
I would say that you should make any important door/pedestal/switch a bit more memorable than usual as both the distance and time a player can get away from such needed progression mechanisms is quite far.
Anyways, none of this is correct, just my observations.
Overall very interesting and a monumental effort for such scale of a map. GG's
Should it be split into two levels? Or is the size OK as long as the progression is smooth and there is no stalling due to getting confused?
I don't want it to feel like a chore or to get boring, or to take that long!
The uneven ammo is something I did in DK Shrine as well, as an attempt to create periodic tension.
I definitely think more guidance for the player is warranted here.
I'm recording some demo's, we'll see how long it takes for a second playthru.
I watched the first three demos. The level "broke" when you jumped out of that window from the upper level where the two vores are, down. That needs to be blocked off. It was an oversight to not think that the player would just jump out. Once upstairs in the "lightning room" area and adjacent areas, everything happens there until you get the Silver Key. You were correct when you said you used the wrong key on the wrong door.
But because you went out of that window, you went off the path, and then got "lost", that is, wandering around the level trying to figure out where to go, when really, you didn't need to move far from that window at all.
I'm pretty sure that iw's point about texture name is valid. Current sky texture name has fixed size (32) and is copied using strcpy from a buffer of an unbound size (value of "sky" key). Whether this problem occurs or not is not bound to what platform you're on but rather how lucky you are. Layout of data in memory isn't necessarily the same from machine to machine (or even between OS restarts) and if you overrun a buffer, you may get lucky and overwrite nothing important. Of you may overwrite some super important state and application crashes. The fact that this happened to one of 5-ish people who played this map so far indicates that this will be hit by other people once you release the map.
@Borax Man Demos Of Second Playthru On Normal
Don't know if want these or not but here they are: Demos
Time was ofc shorter but still lengthy, coming in at almost 2 hours(117:35).
As far as should it be broken up into multiple levels... hrmmm... I don't know, time is time. If a player can't play this for the total time then it will be a several sessions playthru regardless.
Hehe Here I Go
Excited for that one JCR! I really enjoyed the previous jumpbooty thing you released.
I expected I would have had time to revisit the map before now, but I've had a busier week than anticipated. I should be able to replay it this weekend and come back to you with those remaining bits of feedback. Apologies for the delay.
About the sky path issue: I usually use Linux myself, however I was testing on an OSX box when I encountered the problem (using the 0.93.1 SDL2 binary from the QuakeSpasm web site).
What Thulsa said above is very much what I was thinking: it looks like the buffer overflow will occur regardless of platform (it involves the skybox_name array in gl_sky.c), but because this is a low-level problem, what actually happens next would depend on various low-level things, which will presumably be different for different players running the engine on different platforms.
In addition to Thulsa's examples, another factor is that different compilers may or may not emit additional machine code to try and automatically detect buffer overflows (depending on the options they're run with). I suspect that this might be what's going on with the OSX client, because I noticed that it keels over with SIGABRT instead of the usual SIGSEGV; however, like I said before, I just haven't had the chance to look into this in detail.
BoraxMan, I should emphasize that I'm not saying this is a bug in your map. Assuming what I've said is correct, it's a bug in the engine; however, it's the sort of bug I guess mappers will want to work around.
A very similar issue affecting other maps is the crash-on-save bug I talked about in this post
. Like this issue, the save bug doesn't cause the engine to die immediately for all players on all platforms; however, it evidently has that effect in a lot of cases (judging by the number of comments about this on map pages on Quaddicted).
OK, I've played through locbeta again, on skill 3 this time. I recorded a bunch of very short demos showing specific bugs, which I've uploaded here
. While recording these, I couldn't recall exactly which bugs were visible in my previous demos and which weren't, and when in doubt, I thought it was best to risk recording the same thing again, so there's likely some duplication.
I think the demos will be self-explanatory, so, here's some more general feedback about the map:
I liked the following:
* It has a strong, consistent theme. I liked the feeling of wandering through this sprawling otherworldly nightmare-palace where everything was menacing and malevolent at all times.
* I especially liked that there are creepy side-areas in various places which the player can see into but can't enter. Like the yellow-lit room with the Shambler corpse. I'm a big fan of levels including environmental details for no other reason than to be creepy and build atmosphere.
* The "hallucination" sequence (I'm not sure what to call it) actually spooked me on my first playthrough! I think that was because it was so unexpected.
* The hugeness of the map, when it starts opening out, is impressive in its own right.
* The scale of the environment and the lack of repetition in the design reminded me of things like WarpSpasm and various huge Tronyn maps.
I don't think the large size of the map is a bad thing in of itself. But I obviously found the layout and progression pretty difficult, and I think the large size of the map probably exacerbated that.
I've been trying to put my finger on why I found the layout/progression difficult. I don't think it's one thing, but a combination of several different things:
* At any one time there are a lot of different barriers (bars, force fields, key doors, etc.) which I have to try and remember so I can find my way back to them once I've found the thing that opens them.
* Some important barriers are not on the main path and are easy to overlook. An example is the gold key door: it's a long-term objective that the player will have to return to later, but it's in a side-area the player can easily miss.
* In some cases I found the means of opening a barrier without having encountered the barrier itself (leading to a feeling of "so where do I go now?").
* Even when replaying, I found it easy to forget which number Lord I was up to (which is obviously important because the hint messages refer to them by number). I also found it easy to forget whether I was supposed to be hunting for a Lord at any given time.
Even though I don't think the size is the problem, if you're in a mind to split the map in two, I guess that might mitigate the above issues?
I can't help thinking I would have enjoyed the map more if I didn't have to hunt for the Lords after summoning them. When trying to find them, I just felt like I was wandering aimlessly.
About the ammo situation: I found the ammo shortage at the start a bit irritating, especially as the player is confronted with gangs of bullet-spongey Fiends and Ogres right off the bat. I would have preferred a more "normal" ammo balance at the start. From about the halfway point, the ammo balance seemed to have become more normal anyway. (Disclaimer: I've only played on skill 2 and 3.)
But apart from those things, I definitely enjoyed the map. Whether you decide to split it into two maps or not, I'd be curious to play the next version to see how it's evolved.
|13 posts not shown on this page because they were spam|
Website copyright © 2002-2019 John Fitzgibbons. All posts are copyright their respective authors.