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I'm gonna have to really re-think my gameplay strategy for any future maps I build, as I see that what I have done with this map, is not adequate.
to be fair, it's all map dependent. tough relentless hordey gameplay with 'filler' monsters around every corner suits certain maps more than others. here you have a map characterised by fiddly, broken terrain, eerie atmosphere, lava and jump puzzles - you want the player to appreciate these aspects and take them all in, which just becomes impossible with the sheer volume of monsters in it and actually detracts from the overall feel. i remember a recentish map from hrimfaxi called 'for love of evil' - that was tough, i must have died at least as many times on that as i did on this; but that was never frustrating. it's kind of hard to explain the difference; but the main location where i kept dying on that was in a big flat-floored arena where i had freedom to move about, dodge, retreat & manoeuvre in such a way that i could use grenades against fiends. when i got beaten i considered it a fair beating. but your map isn't like that... even with twice the ammo it has now, it would certainly be easier but it would still be annoying because there just isn't enough 'fight space' to be able to enjoy the combat in most situations for what its worth i thought the end battle was decent - end battles are supposed to be tough as nails - but i would have probably appreciated it more if the rest of the map didn't feel like one giant end battle :) i wouldn't want your next release to be easy off the back of this criticism. i don't think it is as black & white a matter as being 'too easy' or 'too hard' or using terms such as 'skill level' - as i detailed above i've played maps that have taken me longer than this and maps where i have died more than this and still managed to enjoy them, but this just frustrating more than anything. hope that goes some way towards explaining my thoughts. i asked about the source because yes, i wouldn't mind repopulating it to make it more enjoyable, adopting more of a 'less is more' approach, but also (completely changing the subject here) because i was curious to try decking it out with hi-res textures, which i think it would be quite suited to with the level of detail. not guaranteeing i'd be successful in that aim but it's worthy of the effort :) hey now... i don't mean to be a dick, but i don't know how you got that from my emails. :(
Perhaps I misinterpreted something you said :) I also don't quite understand the refusal of using grenades. They are powerful and useful in most situations, why use them as a last resort? And for those interested, here is the map source and wad :) http://qrf.mine.nu/~orl/misc/oms2.7z the way it seems to me is that some players classify the GL and even the RL in some cases alongside the LG-- as either utility weapons for specific cases (zombies or packs of weak monsters) or last ditch weapons for powerful monsters (mostly vores).
players will shy away from the GL even more because of it's fickle nature. grenade damage is never guaranteed and depending on the skill of the player can drop to below 50% (more the half the grenades miss). or even if you're just unlucky and the ai decided to turn a little bit. i think that's why i see players even favour the SSG over nails because the shotguns are the pinnacle of guaranteed damage. I use the GL as much as possible, but then again I try to play making sure I have a basic amount of each of shells, nails and rockets at any given time, switching to other weapons when ammo falls low in one of those.
re grenades.
but I'm not crazy about it. I'll pull em out intermittently and I'll use it more if I'm running real short on shells/nails. I think the criticism is a bit harsh regarding the skill. the route issues are a legitimate complaint. the cave secret is fucked. these are legitimate complaints. I played on normal and found it to be hard and unfair, but beatable. the cable car situation took me a couple tries, and the end only took one try. keep in mind I often play on hard... but also keep in mind I hadn't played quake for months (discounting red slammer). I think it has a lot to do with being very careful in this one. If you could enlighten me, what is the initial complaint regarding the routes?
And as for the cave secret, there is a small ledge to the left of the secret cave opening that you have to land on, and use it to jump inside the hole. It is a bit hard to see, but its there. i actually took a screenshot:
http://isoterra.co.uk/images/orl.jpg you can climb up & slope-jump up to that ledge on the left, which screws up the progression. now shortcuts are obviously liable to screw up progression but this one i (and apparently others) took completely unintentionally (i am no 1337 speedrunner..) as it just looked like a path you had a climb up - i didn't notice the underwater cave until afterwards that and making the final room visible from earlier on in the map.. caused me to find my way down there prematurely I played on normal and found it to be hard and unfair, but beatable. the cable car situation took me a couple tries, and the end only took one try.
snap.. i never had to resort to cheating to beat it. just shitloads of quickloads, which took much of the fun out of it and made it more of a chore. i think that's valid criticism Even though I did jump up there as well, it was fairly obvious this wasn't the right way to go, as there's a bit too much slope-jumping and engine-climbing involved - thus I jumped back down immediately. The actual tunnel to get inside the building is clearly visible from below when you approach the area.
I also tried to reach the final room once by jumping, thinking it might be a secret, but at the same I realized the jump was too hard to be an intentional route (that's why I quicksaved before). Honestly map have a very very nice build but gameplay was kind of disappointing...
The final area is those kinds of things that is impossible in nightmare, lots of monsters and few space to move! :( The rest is awesome!!! Hey Orl, I really liked this map.
The gameplay was really brutal; I played on easy, and it was one of the hardest quake experiences I can remember :-). It was probably harder than it should have been for me because I didn't find the GL, and so I had a shortage of nails/shells. If I'm not mistaken, there's no way to return to the starting area, so maybe it would have been good to have another GL located later in the map in case the player misses the first one. Anyways, the architecture and mood were top notch! Thanks for the awesome release. Masses of detail here - lot of time has been spent.
I'll list my criticisms, I mean them constructively :) Not enough resources. It'd be nice if more health / ammo had spawned, or just been there to find. The combat wasn't so difficult, but trying to axe hellknights made it so. Could have been more Shamblers, and more knights replacing the Hellknights. I mean a wider / more balanced monster palette. No lava sounds? I agree with otp about the void sky, but I might have suggested a completely custom sky so that the trees didn't all finish at the same height. The end fight could have been better yeah, stuff to hide behind or more pacing to the monster spawns instead of just chucking them all at the player in two waves. Vores could have been a bit more effective in the big open areas, sniping from vantage points - which could have justified a RL inclusion. I get the impression you collected every secret while playtesting - I got the poison one only, without it the final fight wouldn't have been much fun. Would have been good to have a message at the start of the button hunt to tell me what I was doing. Nothing complicated, the same one on the grates would have done the trick. There was some fiddly brushwork that would have caused issues - I remember the efrags problem you were having. There was also a lot of nice detail though. Climbing around on stuff was a nice pace breaker to the fighting. A few traps would have been nice - just a couple of spikers or a crusher somewhere could have replaced one of the fights... saving the player some ammo :) Architecture was well built and evocative all the way through, a major improvement on your previous maps, not that they were bad mind you. I kept thinking the podium in the center of the open area near the key door could have a had a free powerup on it, like a ROS. The player would be able to use it whenever they wanted, introducing a temptation there. At least for the first play through. The broken stuff was good, but it seemed odd that none of it broke during the fighting, apart from the rockfall at the end.
All in all an enjoyable map, although I did hit godmode a couple of times (skill 2, playing on a touchpad). Keep up the good work. Finished it. Everything good and bad has already been said. Enjoyable, I actually liked the close combat but not ambushes & hordes. End was silly, I tried once, didn't bother again and god moded. End "teleporter" looked plain and unfinished, simple "going into the black" would have been good.
Very impressive! oms2_* demos are quakespasm, the others should be aguirre's protocol i think.
skill 1 http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/spirit_oms2_2.7z I kept thinking the podium in the center of the open area near the key door could have a had a free powerup on it, like a ROS. The player would be able to use it whenever they wanted, introducing a temptation there. At least for the first play through.
Is a good yet very underused gameplay mechanic. I recall only a handful maps ever using it - E3M6 and warpc to name a few. The problem with the final area seen the GK path could be adressed by putting a rune there - to further point out that the player isn't really supposed to get there yet. I tend to agree with ijed about the climbing parts and traps. The SK dive was good (no idea why it's getting backlash by others, you have ample time to find the key and to return!) ijed said pretty much everything I wanted to say earlier but forgot ;) I have tried to record a run on skill 1 without using any shells. There are some few moments where I used the SG by accident but I think no more than 10 shells. I didn't use the axe or excessive infighting. 140 or so monsters killed.
In the end there was tons of ammo left... http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/Oms2NoSG.zip It was the third time I have played the map. I admit I had to make a few tries to get through the lava cab ride part. This is the hardest place (ambush over lava then vores from distance and HK without room to fight). Just in case anyone is interested, a demo of myself beating the map on Nightmare skill, with plenty of ammo and health left over.
http://qrf.mine.nu/~orl/misc/orl_oms2.7z And Ankh, I watched your demo. You have some pretty good skills Your approach seems to be to let the monsters fight each other, rather than you fighting them. Interesting watch :) orl.
sorry about the secret... sucks that everyone kind of assumed it was fucked up. the route issue... I went up there, just to see if I could, but assumed it would be wrong, so did not continue down that path but instead went down what I assume was the intended route. |
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