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Q-Deck (FESP1) (singleplayer Release)
It's finally here!

It's taken me ages and for that I apologise, but what I had in mind for the singleplayer version was much more ambitious than simply adding monsters. There are a lot of new areas (not shown in the screenshots!), I hope you have fun playing it. It's good to finally see the map through to completion. :)

Obligatory screenshots -

http://s18.postimg.org/dp8od6mdl/fesp1_1.jpg
http://s1.postimg.org/z1hgm5w3j/fesp1_2.jpg

And the bsp (along with the .txt and .map file) -
https://anonfiles.com/file/bf5663f349eb992b91330b980525cf78

Quaddicted Link - https://www.quaddicted.com/filebase/fesp1.zip


I'd appreciate any first play demos you can share! Oh, and I recommend hard mode. :)
First Comment 
...telling you how great it is! 
Demo 
1st run

Tried hard, failed hard.
Some notes tho, liked the brushwork, did not like some texturing.
Seems like you wanted to use them all, and that htek* ones look really out of place.

Placing of monsters was fine, why no quoth?

That jumping ladders really annoyed me, there are microbrush workarounds which would be a better choice.

Noticed brush disappearing in in that slime/elevator area, hmm...

Lightin� was sometimes too bright, some areas were totally black.
Balanced lightin� is hard, i know.

But overall a cool SP version of that "other game"!

Keep it going 5th! 
Blarg 
1st run demo (hard skill, failure) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_fesp1.rar

I found this map quite frustrating tbh. Lots of monster closets and "cheap" tactics used to damage the player. It's also brutally hard on hard skill if you don't find secrets to boost your survivability.

Specifically:

1) Didn't like how extra monsters would be teleported in if the player hits triggers set inside secret areas. Feels like you are punishing players for finding your secrets!

2) Too many uses of sudden fast moving plats or walls to reveal enemies right in the players face. Once in a map is ok but it was used too many times here and ended up feeling cheap.

3) I think the reduced scale of the original Deck16 map hurts more in SP than in DM. Not a lot of space to move around in most areas and very cluttered ground/walls made navigation difficult in a few areas. Mainly the large end fight in the main atrium.

4) Difficulty. Hard is really, really f'ing hard :D Mainly because there is not enough armour/health in the map unless you find secrets. I generally dislike when secrets are "mandatory" to have a good chance at survival. I dunno, maybe I just really suck at Quake (certainly possible!) but I felt that in this map the difficulty balance was off, rather than me just being shitty.

Some things I did like, the Shambler fight on the slowly sinking slime bridge was quite neat. Didn't like how you were basicly stuck there and had to go through slime afterwards though.

The map looks sexy as shit, as did the DM version. Very nice brush work and lighting! Cool detailing on all the screens and wall panels around the place. 
 
Stasihost: https://www.quaddicted.com/filebase/fesp1.zip

Haven't played it but I betatested and really like it. Looking forward to tonight. 
DaZ 
1) Didn't like how extra monsters would be teleported in if the player hits triggers set inside secret areas. Feels like you are punishing players for finding your secrets!

I'm interested in what you say because i am using this tactic in my last map even if it is on a diferent way, so i'll tell you my reasons.
- I do that as a reward (extra gameplay and maybe extra areas (the new opened paths from where the new monsters come)).
- As another way to adapt the difficulty of the map to the player. If the player is good enough to reach the secret, he can withstand and will like the extra difficulty. If he isn't that good, he will enjoy the map as it is.
- The third reason is to add replayability.
- The fourth so what i placed in the secret doesn't become too powerful and adds more to the gameplay than making it easier. 
DaZ... 
I'm saddened to hear that you found it frustrating. I put a lot of thought into each set piece, I watch all your quake vids and I wouldn't consider you a bad player at all! (in fact from watching the demo I'd say up until the room you died in you were doing quite well, but you decided to use your face to absorb as much shambler damage as possible)

I did test to see if it was completable without finding any secrets, it can be done! (but I made all the secrets bar 1 quite obvious for a reason!)

Cheers for the feedback though! :) 
 
I found the ambushes to be pretty awesome.

Re the monsters in secrets - not uncommon in id levels, or in doom - provides extra motivation to find all the secrets! And I don't recall any monsters in secrets being particularly 'punishing'.
Could be chalked up to playing style. I had a pretty good experience recording testing demos, finding it too easy on hard and then suddenly having my ass kicked. I never died but was constantly low on health... in a good way.

I suppose in retrospect I should have suggested making the ladders climbable.
But yeah, DLing official version will post runthrough eventually. Thanks for putting in the effor 5th! 
Played 
As i were going to write, i read DaZ comments, and i thought ... Hard? �No way! �This is easy as hell! Then i later found out that what i was thinking was hard was instead normal difficulty. I played hard difficulty, and yes, hard is hard, but nothing big, it just will take me one or two more tries to get it done.

The map was fun to play, good and varied combats with some nice ideas, like the demon, the GL secret and the hilarious slime secret, and as expected from a DM map it has a good layout. The brushwork looks like ID style with lots of details and good lighting. 4/7 secrets so far.

Issues are with the placing of shamblers, except the one near the gold key, that are a bit overwhelming where they are if you don't find enough secrets. The one at the slime is a bit of a contradiction: you tend to flee from shamblers, but the ramp pushes you to go up, and when you finally understand that you shouldn't be in there anymore, the ramp has lowered too much and you can't escape. Maybe a bit more of health in hard would be needed for the shamblers. And a bit harder in normal so you are more prepared for that final fight, that is way harder than the rest and caught me by surprise when i was playing in a relaxed way.

It isn't completely clear what the gold key door opens but having the answer nearby helps a lot.

Here you have my first and second run demo in normal. At the first a shambler on my face surprised and smashed me to a pulp. At the second i run like a girl and took care of it at distance. That shambler needs room to go down the ramp. And more room too for the rest of monsters on the main room.

In normal, there is too much ammo and one of the packs of nails and shells at the golden key room should me moved to the main room.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/fesp1_coce_normal.dem.7z

Next time i have to play the maps at night, i was a bit slow in these ones. 
Yes 
final area is pretty hard now! requires a little strategy. 
One More Thing 
I forgot to say this. There is a brush underwater with tech texture on, on the right part if you look from the silver keycard, that appears and disappears. Have anyone else encountered this one? It doesn't seem to come from a leak, behind it there is still brushes.


Oh, and the computers and their messages are a very nice touch. 
Any Bugs... 
That you find just take a screenshot and send it to me. I thought I had eliminated the disappearing brushes (I tested in a few engines). 
Played It 
on skill 1, died though: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/sleepfesp1.dem.7z

It is pretty dark on my machine, but I suspect this to be a problem of QuakeSpasm on the Mac. Wasn't too hard until when I died, which I suspect to be the final fight. 
MOMOMOMOMONSTERKILLLL!!!! 
 
Blesp1 
Hah 
Yeah I totally screwed up that Shambler dance didn't I!

I think overall it was the small scale of most of the areas that turned me off. I like to have space to move around, the fast speeds combined with lots of projectile based attacks is what makes Quake so much fun for me, in a small or enclosed space that aspect is diminished somewhat.

I played through the map a couple more times and still only found 3 secrets total :) The final combat in the large central atrium is pretty damn brutal on hard skill. There is a lack of cover I think that makes it even more so, especially once the Shamblers and vores start showing up! :)

Cocerello/etc : I didn't like the enemies triggered from inside secrets in this map because most of the time I was very low on health and just didn't want extra shit in my way :) It's a delicate balancing act. On normal skill maybe it would feel ok but I haven't tried normal yet.

I think if there is a Quad damage secret then a few extra enemies actually is a good idea as its great fun to mow through legions of weak enemies with a quad. However the early GL secret in this map spawns in Enforcers that you really don't want to waste precious grenades on that early in the map. 
Daz... 
The GL secret only spawns a single enforcer. And that is the only secret that spawns an enemy. I would say that if you find all the secrets the map could be considered on the easier side of hard, but isn't that the point of secrets? Its a reward! :)

I don't mind making maps a little on the harder side for hard mode, but if people find it hard on easy or normal then that would be cause for concern. 
'twas A Centuries... 
...since I last posted a demo.

1st run, skill 2


I fared unexpectedly well, if you consider I hardly ever play Quake regularly. The next to final ambush got my ass though.
Proceeded to complete from last Quicksave, but did not record.
In the end it was 33.19 minutes, 5/7 secrets, 87/90 monsters.

Nice effort. Loved the though gameplay and secret placing. And interconnectivity is really good, but you'd expect this from a DM conversion, I guess.

Good work, 'Phant! Can't wait for the next one! 
The Subject. 
Needed correction. Sorry.
Fuckthelack (of an edit function). 
Awesome 
The map is awesome, I liked it a lot, so much detail... And the feeling that you are really there. Played on easy, it was ok, so I'm happy, people who play on hard and complain that it's hard are... let's say "strange" :)

Hard is meant to be hard, if you don't want a challenge just play on normal or even easy. If the map is hard even on easy... well, then there is a serious problem, otherwise it's perfect.

Found only 4 secrets, 3 of them were too easy to find, but I liked them a lot, there were mini areas, not just a box.

I also found a biosuit hidden in a place trigerred by a secret button, but that didn't triggered a secret, went into the acid pool nearby, didn't find a secret, alos checked all acid pools, no luck... so it's a bug or I have to dig deeper...

Anyway I enjoyed a lot this map, I know it's not easy to convert a MP map to SP map because I'm trying the same thing for years now :) 
 
I kind of beta tested this map. I didn't have time to do it in a lot of detail, but I tried to find any major flaws and I didn't really find any serious problems.

The secret involving the biosuit is convoluted and I did suggest that it be changed.

I also thought the grenade launcher/slime/sinking ramp/shambler combination (on hard/nightmare) was a little too much, at least at that point in the progression through the map.

When I played through the beta version on nightmare skill, I had to reload saved games a lot, but on normal I was able to finish without ever saving on my first ever play through. The final map was changed from the beta version, and to me it seemed to be a bit harder on normal.

This is a very nice map, but on hard it is really hard and that's perfectly alright with me. I usually play other people's maps on normal anyway, because I'm generally more interested in looking around and exploring than I am with killing monsters 
Rick... 
I can't remember the beta version having enough variance between skill levels. I did try and change it up a bit, plus I added 3 more secrets from the beta version to offset some of the later difficulty. Plus I put you and the other testers in the credits of course. :P

I'm kind of annoyed that a couple of bugs re-surfaced that I had squashed before I sent out the beta. That bloody hole (that isn't really a hole because the map didn't leak!) in the silver key room in particular has pissed me off because I thought I fixed it. (that and the disappearing columns) 
 
Oh, I wasn't complaining or anything. It wouldn't have been a beta if nothing was changed :)

I think it was good that the final version was a bit harder on normal, other than a couple of parts I actually thought the beta was too easy on normal. 
Ah.. 
I changed the easy/normal versions so that it's easier at the beginning and slightly harder at the end based on what I saw on the play-throughs. The easy version replaces the green and yellow armour with yellow and red.
For the hard version I made it much harder all around and bumped up the ammo and health a bit.
Plus with the addition of the 3 extra secrets I think it feels more action-y if you find/do everything 100%. I'm surprised at how many people missed secrets that I tried to give visual hints and such. A few players came so close to discovering the secrets it wasn't even funny when they didn't.
I didn't change up the convoluted slime secret because I couldn't figure out how to make it feel, to use Drew's phrasing, substantial.

@RaverX
There is a secret button in the slime pool where the biosuit is.n :P 
Fixed The Bugs... 
But is there any point re-releasing something that is tantamount to a couple of small(ish) graphical glitch fixes?

Maybe if I quietly released a quoth version with the fixes...

Or should I move on from this map? 
Follow Your Heart 
Spirit isn't into that, but I have no problems with a second release if you think its in the interest of having a product out there you're happy with. EG Sock.

If you feel 'done' with it then let it go. It can't be perfect, and all that.

But if there are a few things that will always bother you in retrospect, I'd say make a quick 2nd edition or whatever.

I'm tired. I don't know. I love the map as is. 
Hmm 
I didn't want to piss off spirit, that was the main concern. I think without tweaking the gameplay and items a smidge more it hardly seems worth it (though knowing I have a version right here on my drive that is fixed might drive me crazy). 
I Wouldn't Worry About It. 
As far as I can tell, most issues with fesp1 are pretty trivial and the average player will never notice.

When I was making Polygon for Quake back in 1997 a basically "early beta" version, that I had sent to a few people for testing, somehow magically appeared on a number of websites and spread from there.

That "beta" version had a number of errors, was not well tuned, and was never intended for general release, but there it is. Both versions are available at Quaddicted, and I posted a message there years ago pointing out the difference. You can't make these things go away though. 
Fifth 
if its so trivial that a regular player miht see it 1/3 times, not worth it. 
V2 
As i see that Spirit hasn't uploaded it yet, i do think you can upload it. The idea of using Quoth (or other mod) it's OK and is a good excuse for having a v2. It's not that important to release a new version with those bug fixes but ... more importantly, if you think it's worth and want to do it, DO IT. If not you''l be left with bad aftertaste.

Now that you fixed it, what was the problem with the columns below the biosuit and how you fixed it? I'm curious, i never encountered that besides in leaks, and it is the only bug i saw, apart from that i needed r_novis 1 if i set r_wateralpha to 0.x. 
The Bug 
Was that the brushes are func wall entitys and the vis was making them disappear. I simply ran water vis option so that its always visible. As for the big hole it was a matter of making 2 edges touch together to remove a small face. 
Actually 
If Spirit hasn't got it on Quaddicted yet, maybe you should try to intercept it and get the fixed version uploaded there. I still wouldn't worry about it too much either way. 
Fifth You Git 
"Unhandled exception error" - now where have I seen that before ;-) 
Mostly Very Cool. 
Good design, amazing detailing, was constantly looking around at everything. Ace secrets, really fun to find. I liked the broken computer. Gameplay was mostly good varied fun, nice Enforcer ambushes and a fine final battle that was kept fair by allowing the player out of the room.

Only couple of issue was that it was a bit too dark in the shadows (minor), and that the first two Shamblers were cheap / brutally hard / overwhelming / a little too much (major), in that they required having picked up the right items (nail ammo / sng secret) and/or running in specifically the right direction (hard to know first time). More player options there would have been useful.

Other than that, spot on. Please make more!! 
P.S. 
Where do we upload teh demoz? 
Final Battle. 
Actually if you end up staying in the room and cowering behind the crate near the computer, it's also pretty cool. 
 
It's uploaded but just not in the db yet, perfect opportunity for a fixed release even though I &#@$%&*# &%#@!... have fun with people wondering about demos bring weird because they have the new version. 
 
just add a note in the readme. 
... 
@spirit
I will send the new version in a bit when I get back from work. Plus demos are more for the mapper than for everyone else. I have a website now so I will compile the same versions together for ease.

@sleepwalkr
I thought you would love that ;) 
Bug Fixed Version! 
Ok this is really really really the final version now. I have fixed the bugs that annoyed me and I have slightly altered some of the late encounters for easy and normal difficulty. Hard mode remains almost entirely unchanged except for the addition of a health pack near the jailed shambler.
The text file is altered to indicate that this is a new revision).

The link is below, can an admin please alter the original post? Thank you kindly!

https://anonfiles.com/file/bf5663f349eb992b91330b980525cf78 
 
Here be a demo. Skill 2, Fitzquake Mark V, ZEEEEERO secrets. Not entirely a first-play... I had already tried the first version of the map and got killed by the GL/slime shambler. (Maybe more accurately, killed by the ladder.) This is me starting over on map version 2.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11690738/temp/fesp1_jl.zip

I need to learn how to fight shamblers up close.

There were indeed some overly finicky movement spots (even aside from the ladders), but I think for me that was offset a bit by having a sort of familiar layout. Which was neat.

More weapon variety would have been welcome I think; maybe I just missed out because I was crap at seeing the secrets on a quick runthrough, but IMO one shouldn't gate a good part of the arsenal behind secrets.

Fun times though! I am super glad to see these new SP maps still popping up. 
Link To New Version Updated 
 
Needs A Speedrun Btw. 
Someone get to it.

BTW the two "bad" shamblers were the gold key pit one and the slime pit one, the cage one was very easy of course. 
Fine 
http:\\members.upc.nl\verorber\fesp1.rar

might be on the old version though

3 routes,first was most fun.2nd is quickest, and i think last route can be just one or 2 secs faster when done perfect but is the hardest by far 
Johnny 
I loved watching your playthrough. I know, personally speaking, that it can be done without having to rely on secrets and it's reassuring to see another player manage it on hard.

I'd love to see a speedrun video, I have a few ideas on how it could be done. (this is why quake needs a par time like doom!) 
Secrets 
foudn 5/6 il have one more look in the updated version if i can find the last might try a 100% if so 
Orbs... 
your link doesn't work/show. :( 
I Meant 6/7 
stil didnt find last,found:

grenadeluancher
redarmor
biosuit
supernailgun
megahealth
quad 
 
I think I already saw one secret I missed, just by watching my own demo. D'oh.

FE I think I remember seeing that this was your first Quake map... have you released anything for other games though? 
Oops 
Wind blowing from the wrong direction turning my slashes :)

http://members.upc.nl/verorber/fesp1_ER.rar 
Gotcha 
bunch of rox:) 
JL, 
this is my first singleplayer release, I used to make DM maps for UT back in the early 00's (though I don't know anywhere you'd be able to grab them now, I don't even have back ups).

I always wanted to make Q1 maps, which I was using worldcraft for until Trench came out. If it wasn't for Trench (and the huge amount of info and research for the game) this map wouldn't even be half as good as it is.
For example, Than's little tutorial on AND, IF, OR triggers helped me set up the gold key lift. 
Orbs... 
this demo only has 1 run as far as I can tell, is this correct?

I managed to get through the dog trap a couple of times myself on testing but it was so rare that I chalked it up to some weird quirk of the engine.

I tried to do a speed run involving a grenade launcher jump over the 3 bars near the gold key but I am terrible at GL jumps, but clearly your way is much faster. 
Fifth 
Should be 3 runs in that rar. first route is over those bars indeed. skipping the dog trap is realy easy to me, i get a succes rate of like 80% 
How... 
do I play the other 2 runs? I'm using fitzquake mark 5... 
Eh 
playdemo "demoname" in console,
but i doubt thats the answer you are looking for 
Im An Idiot... 
I didn't notice the multiple files.

I enjoyed each method! I did consider that the open plan of the map might allow for good speed runs. I think some mappers would try and make up hard deterrents for it (like completely blocking up areas) but I personally believe it's part of the game and fun to watch :) 
Completly Agree 
especialy when different routes have very close times like route 2 and 3, you get an excelent map for speedruns. The dogtrap would have been more fun i you would have needed to block it, or a bit harder to get through. But its best when tricks arent realy designed on purpouse but just "happen" to be there 
Fifth 
what were the UT maps? 
.. 
@orbs
Like I said, I was happy with the trap as-is simply because I only managed to get through like 10% of the time. Besides, I had already set up a couple of ambushes before the dog trap so most players will be cautious by the time they get to it.

@nitin
I made a map called dm-ruiner, a ctf version, I remade "the very end of you", I made a DM6 remake for UT, I also had a slew of uncompleted maps also.
I also made a couple of maps for UT2003 for a 2D mod (which someone then converted into maps for the Overload mod which made it into a PC Gamer article).

To be honest though this is the first map I'm really happy with in terms of quality. 
Cheers 
just went through my UT maps and cant seen any of those. Was trying to see if I had anything else you had made.

hope to play the sp map on the weekend along with mfx's. 
NH 
not realy satisfied yet but got to work tomorrow so this will have to do

http://members.upc.nl/verorber/fesp1_NH.rar 
Fifth 
Where you got that tutorial you mention? I've checked Than's website and had no luck, and i don't remember it in other places ... 
Coce... 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/tutorial_logic.zip

Is the example map for his logic gates tutorial. 
Orbs Nightmare Run.. 
Haha, very fun to watch. That last room is definitely more fun with the quad, though I tend to press the exit button and drop to the quad to get maximum usage time. Also my tactic with the silver key shambler is to bounce a grenade off the crate to get its attention (that way I don't have to get into melee range). 
Orbs... 
Thirdroute you could:

GJ out of the first secret.
Grenade the Enforcer above.
Pretty sure you could get a much higher double GJ onto one of the bridges.

Maybe worth a try? 
Thx 
Interesting ideas in there. 
Good Demos Tho. 
Optimised NH could be great too. 
W/out Secrets. 
On hard is fun. Only difficult bit is the GL area. Wouldn't be fun for a first run tho. 
I Tried 
and failed do do exactly that on my 2nd run demo. coming... eventually. 
Now 
Drew.. 
I wondered why you were skipping stuff on that second run, then I came back to the thread and saw why.
The shambler spawn on the top deck is an anti-camping measure, makes me smile to see it working properly :D 
Great SP Version 
Works well, good detail as before, nicely expanded and cool secrets - most of which I didn't find on my first run, however... Got to say I played in a quite derpish style overall. Skill 2 didn't seem overly unfair, although this is the second version, no idea how it was before.

What sucks is that the map is a single model over the limit. This could have been fixed easily. Requiring an increased source port for this map is unacceptable in my book.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/fesp1_negke.zip

Hope you'll get around to making more levels. 
Neg... 
I rather enjoyed your demo, it kind of made me pull my hair out when you walk right past a secret (like the biosuit one, you looked up in the wrong place!) and the fact that even though you found the entrance to the secret under the lift you still managed to miss it!

As for the 257/256 model problem I had actually gone through and deleted a bunch of things to try and correct it but I couldn't figure out why the model count wouldn't decrease.

You'd probably need to use an increased source port to run the map anyway, half the map disappears when you use the standard engine. :P 
Shambler Spawn. 
Can camp behind the crate easily, just have to dodge enforcers and scrags a bit. Actually makes a really fun fight duck and shooting against 2 shamblers and the vore. 
Third Route 
ye that way i got a 38 from a safegame, vs a 39 in hfr on the other route. i coudlnt realy find a good way to throw the firstgrenade early though 
Errrr. 
Hi Orbshambler ;) 
Tremendous Map 
highly polished, beautiful lighting and visuals IMHO plus it had real atmosphere, especially for a base map.

Gameplay was also excellent IMHO, I didnt find it hard but more challenging and surprising. Loved some of the gameplay setups quite a bit. Also, I think a good compliment is that if I didnt already know, I wouldnt have guessed it was a dm map conversion. 
And 
what a good year so far, we've had Sock's awesome Midnight Stalk, two monstrous releases from Mike and Tronyn, this map and some good ones too from mfx and ricky. 
Noticed That... 
I never changed the texture on the computer in the gold key room to a gold key texture. Whoops. :P 
Demo... 
I made a demo of me playing my own map, it's not very long and I tried to play it in the most fun/carefree way as I could. (latest version of map)

http://speedy.sh/9M9W7/fesp1-fe.zip 
Model Limit 
It works like this: each brush entity takes up a slot, and then each individual model precache - one for each item and monster type used in the map (.mdl and .bsp) as well as the standard player stuff such as v_weapons and gibs.

There are several ways of bringing down the count, e.g. by using point-based triggers instead of brush ents where possible.
In this map, it doesn't even require special tricks as it could have worked right away with established mapping techniques. What I mean is, for example, the triggers for the bars/dog ambush in the corridor at the start only need one brush trigger and a trigger_relay to fire the second target, not two trigger_once above each other like you used.

Of course, sometimes maps simply can't be made to work in vanilla limits, and sometimes, perhaps, it would be too much work compared to the gain. But if it's a simple deal like this, if it's only a few clicks over the limit, I've no tolerance for not doing or at least trying to fix it. Mind you, this is not supposed to sound like I'm scolding you, though - you're kinda excused since you're still new to Q1 mapping. Just something to keep in mind for next time...

...or if you made another update? Fuck Spirit! :D (not least because he didn't bring it up when betatesting) 
Neg.. 
I will keep it in mind next time. There's a few things that bothered me about the map anyway, it was never going to be perfect (even after the second release I found the gold key computer had a silver key texture).
Also if you skip the dog ambush entirely and trigger it from the opposite side then the ambush still has to fire because of the way I set it up, only the dogs will be trapped and not you.
I think I should have used Thans "if" trick, but I decided that pretty much everyone will go through the trap.
Also, I would have preferred the slime/lift/shambler ambush to have the slime rising than the lift to go down (I do admit it was a cheap trap, even though I enjoyed watching everyone panic). 
Trigger_relays 
are one of the most under-appreciated entities in Quake. I'm still finding new uses for them. 
No Time.. 
to spend on my new map, so I'm just pissing around with making a quoth version of this... that and I have a bit of mappers block atm.
I say no time cause of work and the fact that I'm going away for a few weeks soon (no internet or pc!). 
Slime 
i stand behind this trap. It's a great, brutal set up - it isn't easy coming up with ways to throw experienced quake players off like that. 
Yeah 
I liked it too. 
Moving Pixels 
Rad Map 
Hah 
Cool vid, wasn't sure if you'd get around to it simply because I know you weren't a fan of the camped style and some of the gameplay decisions I made. I definitely didn't want to redo the scale of the map from the DM version because that would mean redoing almost the whole map again so I tried to make it work as it was.
I appreciate you spending the time and effort making the video! :) 
J83 
Thanks for the demo man. I'm slightly surprised at how tough people find the map, I recently played Backstein (give it a go, it's amazing) and I thought that was really difficult compared to my own map. Definitely need to take all the info on board for my next map. 
Environmental Frustration 
IMHO the reason this map is hard is because the player is often fighting the environment and monsters at the same time. There are slime pits and traps, hardly any environmental suits, flaky ladders and a general lack of floor space (tech clutter) to fight enemies.

I personally found the ladders frustrating, Quake does not support them and the current solutions (constantly jumping up a series of steps) is problematic. Combine the ladder problem with having to fight enemies at the same time and you have a recipe for frustration. This map could of easily had platforms to exit the slime areas and it would have gotten the player back to fighting the enemies not the environment.

As a rule the more things a player has to deal with the greater the difficulty. Monsters + Ammo/health management + environmental hazards + unforgiving traps + cramped locations = frustration.

If you want a good example of a map with excessive environmental hazards + hard monster layout play Conflagrant Rodent. This map has plenty of lava, small warped walkways to fall off, lots of heavy range monsters and punishing skill levels.

I personally think the flow of the final arena is wrong, it is setup as a corridor with no loop routes. This is the main reason why DM maps make bad SP maps, the flow is wrong. Typically a DM map is about forcing encounters, players are pushed into focal points to fight quickly, kill players and then exit looking for more players. The flow of DM is the connectivity between arenas not the internal flow around an arena.

The main route though the final room is a central walkway that leads the player to exit the room, you are naturally pushed from one side of the room to the other. The upper area is not used because the flow is linear, move up ramp, jump off ledge. There should of been more ways up to the higher ground, lifts at either end etc.

The monsters in the final room mostly spawn on top of crates and the room then turns into a series of turret encounters. There is so much tech clutter around that it is easier to exit the room and snipe from the doorways than try to navigate the room. 
Haha, Duly Noted! 
Yeah, I made the map for DM first and then decided that I would try and do a SP conversion (who plays DM anyways right?).
The map was a huge learning experience for me and I tried a lot of gameplay experiments (mostly trap set pieces) which was very "marmite" judging by the comments.
Next map will be SP-only and a lot more traditional in scale and gameplay (to an extent, if I get a crazy idea in my head then I will probably stick something in there). 
Tronyn Review 
8/10 
I like it a lot. Secrets were fun. Though I really did frown at the slime pit, the ledges should have been a little wider I think. Also some of the parts felt just a little too small, like I didn't really have room for the kind of combat needed to deal with the enemies at hand.

Overall it was fun, though. Very nice brushwork! 
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