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New Q1SP: Backsteingotik
Download Link Readme and screenshot.

A towering monolithic brick structure soaked in hot yellow lighting with a skill selection area at the beginning, some crushers and a couple of secrets to keep you wandering around in circles.

The map was inspired by the gameplay of E3M5 and features medieval style pickups, some new keys and a couple of powerup models. The textures are mostly from ID and the gameplay is vanilla Quake!

If you want to play the map with your own engine settings check the readme file for further details.

The map was only tested with Fitz 0.85 and remember to RECORD A DEMO, I want to see how you play the map!
I Think I Encountered A Bug... 
Ok... 
so I started a second demo from where I got stuck on the first demo above. I didn't get all the secrets or kill all the mobs but I'm pretty sure I did practically everything on the map that there was to do.

https://anonfiles.com/file/98ff730ecdacd5a30784f1e1678bbcd6 
@fifth 
Unfortunately your download links never work for me, the download buttons do nothing. 
@fifth 
Ok got the files, the download link does nothing for a very long time and then works. I watched your first demo and what engine are you using? Are you using Quoth!?! :) 
Nopppeeee 
I should probably stop using anonfiles.

As for the engine I realised I'm using Fitz 0.88 when I went back in for the second demo, maybe it's that? Although it may not be since I got it to work the second time. Must be gremlins in the system :S

I really enjoyed the map btw, hard mode isn't mucking around! (just the way it should be!)
I'm envious that you can bosh a map together so quickly and with such amazing quality. I kinda wish we could get them all in one folder/pak since I hate my directories getting all cluttered (OCD). ;) 
Fitz 0.88? 
Is that a typo? 
@fifth 
Wow your second demo is crazy, I honestly thought you were a gonna several times. Totally respect for trying hard skill first and making it to the final room. The key to the map is certainly using the crushers.

Fitz 0.88 is the Mark V engine, unfortunately this engine has problems with this map. I am not sure when Baker will get time to have a look. This is why I don't recommend it (readme file, top post) 
 
I recorded a first-play demo using Fitz 0.85. Playback locks up when the map reloads after difficulty selection. I don't remember if cross-map demo playback is supposed to work in 0.85 or not?

Playing back the demo using Mark V works across the map reload though, and at least for the next few minutes... I haven't watched the whole thing to see if anything breaks later. FWIW, here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11690738/temp/jlaw_back_hard.zip

For me, in the fights with the crushers in the room I was always kind of running around with my hair on fire; couldn't use the crushers effectively. I think I tried once or twice but just managed to get myself into more trouble. 
Wow Wow Wow 
This map is fuckin awesome :D

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/103186490/scamp_bs_normal.zip

my playthrough on normal. 30 minutes, 6/10 secrets, 223/224 monster kills (on retrospect, I wished I had gone and searched instead of immediately exiting)

Really enjoyed the combat and the secrets of this map. I'll have to play again and find the rest!

(I played with Quakespasm because I am a bad man and don't listen to sock) 
 
Aight I watched my whole demo using Mark V, it seems to work!

That was fun times. I actually had just got out of some QuakeWorld DM right before playing that, so I was a bit tired/twitchy, but I liked the combat a bunch. Monster choice and placement, ambushes, and also some opportunities for the player to do ambushes... good stuff. Although more than once some guys seemed to spawn in right on top of me. Honestly though, at this point I kind of expect/hope for a map to be a little unfair if I play it on hard difficulty; I just want the exploration and fights to be engaging.

The mix of stone and brick worked for me, especially with the warm lighting. It never felt same-y. For my tastes, high-tech base themes aren't as Quake-ish, and so I enjoyed seeing a good mix of the low-tech textures. Plus the special models you've added fit in quite well. I think I was a little slow to pick up on the visual cues for "this is a lift" and "jump up here", but I picked up on it after a bit.

(And I got slightly lost after the silver vault.)

I'm not 100% sure what to think about the "gotcha" traps that spawn a ton of monsters when you pick something up. I guess that is very much in the tradition of id games :-) and they were certainly well marked. A few times, the pickup was something I didn't really seem to need (already had the weapon or whatever) and I knew that I would probably come out of the fight with fewer resources than I started. But I did it anyway cause I likes to fight! Some of those combats were pretty extensive and interesting... if the player avoids the trigger pickup does that fight just never happen at all? 
Congrats On The Release! 
Another masterpiece.

Fifth: You can upload your demos to Quaketastic (pw: ilovetheshubhub). Or in this case sock's own hosting site would be appropriate, too. 
Awesome! 
Demo : 23 odd minutes, 3/10 secrets, not all enemies killed. Hard skill https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_backstein.rar

Great map! The arenas were very cool. I loved how rockets and cells were very much rationed and I was always juggling whether to use those or stick with the nailguns/shotty. It got very interesting at times :)

Great secrets (of the ones I did find!). I blame morning sun glare on my monitor for not finding more :)

I'll definitely be doing a vid for this, this time with non fubar'd gamma. 
 
Compiled Quakespasm from SVN just now. Saved after the load so I could record a demo. Trying to load that demo makes the engine quit with "QUAKE ERROR: Z_Realloc: failed on allocation of 53248 bytes" 
 
Fixed by adding "-zone 512" to the commandline. Oh, all that non-standardised engine hubbub is so annoying. 
Great Map 
That was a lot of fun. First run on hard: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/sleepback2.dem.7z

No complaints from me. The map looks great, has plenty of atmosphere, some great monster placement, nice secrets, and it's not unfair. 
Feedback 
Custom Quake Engines
* Fitz 0.85 works perfectly, fully tested by me
* Quakespasm works fine as far as I know
* Mark V (0.88+) does not, it has spawn issues and monsters become impossible to kill, but it does play back demo's perfectly.

So far I have got 6 demo's and they were an awesome treat to watch, thank you everyone. I am totally surprised how many people tried hard skill first time. Personally I would have died a lot, I find normal skill is just about right me.

I am glad so many people explored the skill selection area, it was certainly a lot of fun to create. I think the vertical space sets the mood perfectly for things to come.

I did try to keep all the visual clues consistent, lifts look the same, button types work as expected and runes on the floor to symbolize function, trap/respawn.

One area which constantly changed was the very beginning with the GA/SSG. I am disappointed how difficult it is to find the button considering the reward, should have been more obvious.

I like how some people used the crushers, some just killed things and some even used the spikes traps. I tried to give as many choices as possible and I am glad they all got used.

Also the map can be put into the ID/maps folder, it does not require its own directory. I setup the map this way because I like to play with custom models and texture settings.

If anyone is interested in more map waffle from me, there is a ton of extra information in the readme file. Thanks everyone. :) 
 
if the player avoids the trigger pickup does that fight just never happen at all?

Yes, some trigger pickups can be ignored/skipped, even the whole of the silver key side can be skipped. There are loads of shortcuts and different ways to approach areas. I tried to cater to as many player types as possible and give loads of choices. 
 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein-spirit-normal-firstrun.7z

I loved the skill selection area (I love exploration like that) but the actual map somehow did not "click". I kept feeling rushed by combat, often I wanted to explore an area more. I also got lost quite a bit, the map seemed very samey to me! Maybe some obviously different (colored?) structures would have helped me. Awesome brushwork.

I felt like it was a bit a case of pearls before swines to have such nice surroundings for hordish monster slaughter. Maybe I am just tired of Quake though ;)

Sometimes I was not sure what were secrets and what not (the Vaults?). Loved the Shambler placements! 
 
There were a couple of instances where I was running around in circles and the progression didn't seem immediately obvious. However I loved that the different areas were different hues, it really made it feel like "yes, this is a different area now". 
 
I was going to peak at the .map file but it doesn't open in Trench. Says something about an integer parenthesis or some junk.

I just re-watched my demo, I didn't realise how close and often I was to dying. But then again I had about 5 or 6 beers by the time I had booted up the game :D

Also I don't think I fully appreciated how good the brushwork and texturing was. I love the soft lighting that you achieved too. 
Where Is The Map Source? 
Is it in the pak files? It says "The source map file is in the zip file for viewing pleasure." in the readme, but there's nothing to be found there. 
Source Files 
Yeah the source files are inside of the first pak file under a source sub directory. I assumed anyone who be interested would check out the contents of the pak files.

The map file is saved with a Q3 GTK editor and contains a lot of extra information. Probably why Trenchbroom does not like it. I also included all the map texture plus some extra stuff in a wad file for anyone who wants to create their own brick themed map. 
Cool 
Thanks! If the sources are Q3, then TB will not like them, yes. Well, not right now, anyway. 
Attempted Hard... 
And it didn't go too well. Was also recording a demo which I don't often do and therefore become far too conscious of eventually having my gameplay watched and make too many mistakes or be overly cautious. Used the axe a lot to conserve ammo, which didn't go too bad, but hordes constantly caught me off guard and chipped away too much health. Got as far as the first Shambler. Not sure its worth posting that demo... :p

Doesn't matter though since I accidentally used Mark5 instead of Fitz. Will give it another attempt later. Might have to force myself to play on Normal though just to enjoy it, then check out Hard another time. We'll see. 
Awesome! 
Very satisfying map in all aspects: fat meaty gameplay, cool secrets and exploration bonuses and of course trademark atmosphere of sock.

sock u rok as ever!

here're two demos. first one i have failed aggroing big horde of mobs, second one went more smoothly till the end.
http://vondur.net/files/backstein.7z 
 
Not bad ;>
The quad secret trigger was a little devilish. 5 or 6 / 10 secrets on normal.

It's a little annoying that crosshair, and next/prev weapon bindings are always reinit by Sock's mods.

The start was enjoyably unusual. 
 
That was fun. I tried to sneak past all the monsters in the second pipe, that didn't go so well. Was finally killed at the final room.

Used Darkplaces.

http://stratagus.com/forums/backstein_kyran.dem 
Awesome 
will play Saturday. your last map is my favorite release of the year to date. 
Z_Realloc: Failed On Allocation Of 69632 Bytes 
This error occurred while I was playing the map.

Version: QuakeSpasm 0.85.9 
 
add "-zone 512" to the commandline 
 
@quakis, yeah I can understand the pressure of recording demo's, there is no quick save/load and a lot of mappers tend to forget the map is suppose to be fun not punishment. Personally I always play a level on normal skill first and if that goes wrong I stop and move on. I did spend a long time trying to balance the skill levels to be fair to their name and normal is a certainly a good place to start with this map.

@Vondur, as always you rock and your demo was very cool to watch. Your first demo did raise an interesting point for me that the wind tunnel after the first shambler (SK side) is not obvious. I was told this in testing but I assumed the floor texture/panel would be obvious but you can walk forward and miss the trigger above. Your second run is extremely methodical with the use of the crushers, even to the point of crushing shamblers! total respect. :)

@Kyran, awesome thanks, I did not know the map worked with DP. Time to re-install another Quake engine. :)

@nitin, I did not realize you liked midnight stalker so much. This map is different, much more horder fights and variety of floor space. This map also has a lot more choices of what you can do.

@hkBattousai, sorry did not know about the -zone command. I will add that to the readme file in future for QuakeSpasm users. 
Fun Map 
Did it on hard, difficulty seemed just right, had a lot of fun with it.

Not sure why but at the very end I got lost, wandered around for a few minutes before finding the exit pipe, that was a bit anti-climatic (which is weird cause the rest of the map felt really fluid, always knew where to go).

I didn't record a demo because I'm a terrible person. :(
Great map once again, thanks! 
Sock 
yea i seriously stuck there, thought something bugged even. message 'u can jump here' would fix that ;)
also, for me, that spot looked like it was specially designed balcony, not jump spot for some reason. 
Sock 
You are a beast! Will play soon! (bed time now) 
Quakespasm 
Uhm, I never had any problems running this map with 0.85.9, no need for -zone or any other special start options, so you must be doing something wrong (Linux?)... I always loaded the mod/map through the console, which means I didn't have to deal with the sock settings, either. 
RE: Quakespasm -zone 
On which operating system / architechture did you need specifying -zone? (Suspecting 64 bits. ???) 
64 Bit Lunix 
 
RE: Quakespasm -zone - 64bits 
I see; most possibly because of size_t and ptr* being 8 bytes instead of 4 on 64 bit OSs. Might increase the default zone size at least for 64bit versions in future (if I don't feel lazy..) 
I Would Play It, But 
I don't support mappers that make maps that require special engines or special command lines to make the map to work.

At this time, I prefer if the map just worked, in vanilla. 
Lol Deqer 
Seriously dude, this is a standard command-line that I use by default, infact I normally put my -zone at a higher amount for extra juice.

I used to use the -zone command back in the old quake days in the 90's. Plus I have played the map in RMQ, quakespasm and fitz. I bet it would work in directq too. 
Lol Indeed 
this is the standartest way to play. 
Stuck... 
Using Fitz 0.85

2nd Crusher room; killed all enemies, as far as I'm aware, and neither the door, lift or wind tunnel unlock. 
 
Skill 1 demo

I didn't read the thread before playing and went with Mark V, assuming it's the same as Fitz 0.85. I never encountered missing or invincible monsters though? Everything seemed fine.

Brilliant map with great architecture and texturing all through. The SK section felt like a sequel to honey for how damp and gritty it looked. I thought the lighting* could do with more contrast and drama, though.

The gameplay was loads of fun and surprises, the first Shambler lift surprised me completely and the second I did not expect to stop on my floor and nearly got killed.



* - kind of bummed there wasn't an E3M5-style strobe light corridor in this map... 
Oh And 
Please don't force gl_nearest on the player. :P 
RE: Quakespasm -zone - 64bits 
Bumped Quakespasm default heap size to 72mb and zone size to 512kb in 64 bit builds in the svn: http://sourceforge.net/p/quakespasm/code/853/. The next 0.85.10 release, whenever that happens, will have this change. 
Deqer 
if you use fitzquake, which is what the mapper recommends, and really its not a custom engine inthe normal sense because its the standard engine most people have been using for many many years, there is no problem.

Command line dickery or other bugs are being mentioned in relation to other engines. 
Tour De Force 
Superb, nuff said...
Demo on skill 0, yes "0" :P but someone has to do it. 8/10 secrets, didn't fill the monster count because I chose not to take some items on the flashing panels. The "spawning" panels in the "centre" didn't seem to spawn anything once they were cleared; is that because I chose not to take some things?

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/dis_backstein_easy.dz

disrans turns on SoundForge and starts to compile some 16 second sound bites... 
Feedback 
@Bal, wow thanks I did not know you had Quake on your HD anymore :D The final destination pipe is marked with arrows but the visual disconnection is not seeing the pipe blocker being moved. Should of setup a trigger to lower the blocker when the player was closer. I am glad you tried my map, now I just need to get CZG to play my map ... :P

@Vondur, good point. I can always setup the messages to be trigger once.

@quakis, the final fight should release the final exit and lift when the shambler is dead. He is locked in his room until you clear the room. Without a demo I cannot tell what happened unfortunately. :/

@onetruepurple, wow you turn and move so fast in your demo. I am not sure if this is an engine recording thing or not. I thought about the E3M5 strobe corridor when playing the orignal, but that part of the map just makes mt eyes hurt and not in a good way.

@distrans, you are the only person who found the SSG at the beginning, worked out the flanking routes for the GL/RL and explored most of the map! I thought the easy skill was fair, there was a couple of WTF moments but Quake needs that to be fun. Some of the item respawns have been removed from easy skill, I did not think the extra ammo was necessary. Also there is no harm in skipping stuff (RL/GL/YA) that is the choice of the player in this map. 
Aye... 
...having that Shambler over my shoulder in the last arena was a suprise but recoverable (if that's a word). I was lucky that I had the correct number of clamps down to keep it at bay so I could hammer it with impunity. I'm a texture fanatic so when I see something that looks like a misalignment and find it's am inverted sunken treasure I'm very happy. I really liked the way I had the choice about picking up items or not. Once I worked out that the flashing ground panels were "triggers" I was able to apply a possible cost/benefit analysis to the scenario (OMG that sounds rude but exactly how I approached it :( ) Excep of course that you gave me the opportunity to just stand on a tile and perforate two HKs yaaaaaaay! If I'd been a bit more on the ball I should've drawn a shambler into a triple ng trap rather than stand and deliver till I was down to the single digit reds. However, it's a sign of your quality design that I was able to recover and proceed to the end. BTW, the end was obvious and without guile...thank you! 
Szo 
Bumped Quakespasm default heap size to 72mb and zone size to 512kb in 64 bit builds in the

So, now your engine is part of the non-standard category of engines. Okay.

nitin: if you use fitzquake, which is what the mapper recommends, and really its not a custom engine inthe normal sense because its the standard engine most people have been using for many many years, there is no problem.
Sounds like fitzquake has already done what szo just did with his engine: Increased defaults; therefore no longer standard.

It's misleading for an engine to say that a map works, when really it does not(on a vanilla engine).

Forcing people to use a special engine to play a map. Bad. 
Deqer 
What engine do you use? 
 
It is not like this release requires a whole new, only for this map, engine. Fitzquake and by extension (with limitations) Quakespasm are considered the standard engine for new map releases. 
Deqer 
Please define 'non-standart'???? One can only take id's original ones as 'standart' and *nothing* else.

The mod's own readme file recommends using the -heapsize argument, which I believe by your 'standarts', makes him to recommend 'non-standart' engines?

(and why do I bother anyway...) 
 
Even back when there were no engines other than id's engines, some mods and maps and scripts required command-line arguments to run. It seems counterproductive to complain about sourceports upping their internal limits to make such things no longer necessary. We're long past the point where it is useful to measure out memory in megabytes. 
People 
Always complain about free stuff.

I am playing this by the way, and will post some demos soon. 
 
Er, deqer, cut Sock some slack... if you don't like "nonstandard" stuff, don't play it.

Don't tell artists what they can and can't do, pretty much. If you don't like the result, feel free to ignore it or make one cohesive post with your criticism, but pressing your point like this is unneeded really. I usually post my criticism and then the artist can take it or leave it, it's not like the world depends on it.

I vaguely plan to play this, too, but last time my demo stopped recording after the skill selection thingy and I'm not familiar with the arcane art of Quake demos. Can someone tell me how I can record a demo of the entire thing, assuming there is again the skill selection thing to overcome? 
Moving Pixels 
where I basicly fondle the map's private parts :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nacZqO8Zd10 
Gb 
I'm not sure but I haven't be doing any of the demo recording tricks to prevent recording problems and no one has complained, so it looks like that has been silently fixed at some point?? 
 
'some mods' ... 'required command-line arguments'.
some? really? surely you mean all... :P 
Necros 
okay, then I'll try it with Fitz085. 
Deqer 
no-one should really be using the original engines anymore and here is why -

* They are poorly optimised for todays hardware
* They don't properly support modern screen resolutions
* They are graphically inferior (seriously, 8bit lighting on software quake is hideous and GLQuake doesn't support brightmapping or gamma controls)
* They don't have proper netquake support
* They have way less useful features, (like listing all the maps, pausing/rewinding/fastforward demos, debugging)

Fitzquake and Quakespasm are the de-facto engines of choice for Quake purists, they're very faithful to the original game whilst having lovely background features that in no way hinder or ruin the original game experience.

Anyone sticking with the original executables that shipped with the game are making their own lives intentionally more difficult! 
Gb 
I just used QuakeSpasm to record my demo, and there were no problems with the map change. 
So Much For That 
With Fitzquake 0.85, the demo didn't continue recording or rather playing after the load screen. :-/

Why is it even necessary to include an extra load screen in a singleplayer map (ie why does it have to come in 2 parts)? That just complicates demo recording for casual Quake players, if they even figure it out in the first place.

This happened in your last map as well, Sock. Thus I'm sorry, I do try to record demos, it just never works.

Feedback:

I had to install Quake under Windows to play this mod (I normally use FTE or Quakespasm under Ubuntu), since the readme explicitly requires Fitzquake 0.85, which is windows-only. This required 2 reboots because I forgot to copy over a file the first time. It also required messing around with settings and an autoexec.cfg to get standard WASD controls back, plus getting my mouse setup to be inverted and have +jump on mouse2. I don't know if Fitzquake 0.85 has any way to save a config from within the engine (as FTE can), at least I didn't see anything like it. So I wrote an autoexec.cfg file in Notepad. Yay.

Then ingame, I had mouse sensitivity problems; the mouse feels rather different in Fitzquake 0.85 compared to what I normally use. Small annoyance, but it was playable. Had to pause and tweak sensitivity a few times though, which probably didn't help the immersion.

I played on Easy, and it turned out that was a good decision because it was more comparable to id Hard. Still doable for me, though, since I do play shooters regularly, but I'm not sure if this was really a "sightseeing" difficulty as the readme claims. People who don't usually play shooters might still have problems. I died in the gold key part of the map, in a room where I was suddenly rushed by a lot of monsters. I blew myself up with the RL after I was already in red health after trying and failing to dodge the knight horde; IMO there wasn't enough room to dodge, but I might also suck at Quake.

There was otherwise enough health and ammo, so no complaints there. It was nice to get the shaft relatively early.

The map is expertly constructed, the brushwork and texturing are top notch, the fog is tasteful and the lighting felt adequate, so yeah, this didn't disappoint build quality wise. It's a Sock map after all.

The gameplay felt like solidly executed, bog-standard Quake. I believe that was the intention - if it was, then you nailed it.

The routing through the map was adequate, like being dropped right at the silver key door after getting the key and other details like that. This is commendable; well done.

Verdict:

Build quality, visuals and routing are top notch.

Gameplay is adequate, but because it tries to nail the standard Quake feel, it doesn't especially stand out. Easy skill is comparable to id Hard, at the least, so is slightly misleadingly labeled as "for sight seeing". I suspect Normal has to be rather challenging, and I can't imagine what Hard and Hard+ might be like.

Shipping, documentation and user friendliness I find lacking. The mod requires a Windows only engine despite the fact that lots of good quality crossplatform ports exist. I thought Quakespasm was quite standard? Demo recording is wanted, but it is unclear to me how to record a working demo in the target engine and it's not explained either.

That would be about it. 
 
man people love quakespasm don't they? I have to admit that if I didn't have so many problems with DirectQ I'd probably use that as my main (the integrated map menu is absolutely awesome, I wish it was standard in other engines) RMQ is another I use often as it runs big maps at much higher frame rate than any other engine (plus it has some nice coloured lighting effects for enemy fire).
FQ and Quakespasm are pretty vanilla really in comparison, though they are very solid and stable.

I wouldn't be afraid of using QS with socks map, I played the whole thing with RMQ without noticeable issues so I can't see QS being a big problem. 
Err 
Forcing people to use a special engine to play a map. Bad.

you might want to try and at least make an argument rather than just state an unreasonable opinion. For the reasons fifthelephant has pointed out, plus the fact that glquake and software quake are buggy as hell because they werent designed for modern drivers, OS or hardware, there are engines that fix these bugs and add some useful features (including network support), only one of which is increased limits.

you have to remember, glquake was not even default, id put that out later as gfx cards started coming out, it wasnt exactly thoroughly tested or anything. 
Quakespasm 
IIRC I used Quakespasm to play Sock's last map, and couldn't record a working demo either; I was probably using a very old version of QS though, so recent ones might not have that problem.

The upside of Quakespasm is that it's basically Fitzquake, but works on Mac and Linux as well, so people can use their standard config, and it's actively maintained whereas Fitzquake 0.85 is ancient.

Quakespasm is the engine I always reach for to play custom maps, since I'm aware they are usually meant to be played in a faithful engine and QS runs under Linux so I can just download and play without any hassle.

If something required a recent build of Darkplaces (pretty rare around here), I'd be in trouble because I'd have to download that, but at least DP is crossplatform. :-)

So, I'm curious. How does one record a working demo on this map? 
I'm Behind The Times, Then. 
gb: but pressing your point like this is unneeded really
Sorry, I didn't mean for that.

---

It sounds like I'm just behind the times, then. And that's fine; but I think then everyone needs to be ahead of the times then as well. Steam shouldn't be shipping Quake (with it's default engine port) anymore then, but rather a "modern" engine port with increased limits then. Right?

And szo should've just increased the limit to something even higher then, like 128 or 256. Why only a little increase? These days, you can't even run windows without 1gb of ram, really. The days of DOS are gone.

---

Sorry to be posting in this thread. I would create a new thread about the topic, but I recall people complaining to others for starting a new thread, saying "did you really need to start a new thread for this?" when it was fairly reasonable for him to start a new thread, but people complained about that anyways. 
Map Requirements Should Be Clear And Upfront. 
I also would prefer that these requirements be upfront and clear.

If the map requires a modern engine, it should say:
REQUIREMENTS:
- Quake (modern engine) with -zone # and -heapsize # 
Awesome Map! 
Here's my lesser demo: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein_generic.7z

It begins shortly after the skill selection map where I finally managed to grenade-jump up to the armory :)

From there, you get to see me do a lot of mousing around, rubber-necking at the awesome architecture and looking under every lift.

Other highlights include me waiting (in vain) for nails to re-spawn, accidentally hitting 'fly' during a Fiend encounter, picking the wrong weapons while under a scary Shambler attack, and getting thoroughly confused at the gold vault -- should it have been marked as a secret?

Besides that, you get to see me take advantage of some entertaining in-fighting, a spike-shooter or two -- but hardly a crusher -- and become dangerously obsessed with the trigger in the second key wind tunnel.

Thank you for the thrilling ride, Sock! You rock! 
Deqer 
I guess Steam cant do that because they dont own any of the modern engines and ID obviously doesnt care enough to at least fix glquake or bring it up to date for modern hardware and software.

I do agree that all requirements should be stated upfront though, not many casual players would go to readmes.

All of this is another reason for not forcing settings on players too sock :) 
 
gb: yeah, i was using the newest QS to record. sorry I said that but forgot to mention what version. :) 
 
Hey gb, your Fitzquake 0.85 demo may play back just fine using Fitz Mark V. Mine did. 
Gb 
I think the demo recording across map change was added in a recent version of QS, so maybe it's time to update ;-) 
Feedback 
@Daz, as always the video was awesome to watch, thank you. I thought you would discuss the flanking routes like the RL/GL in the central room. The area before the crushers on the GK side with the ogre/demons facing one direction. The hard mode + is certainly tough without SNG/RL support but I would recommend trying it once!

@gb, unfortunately I don't have time to test my maps with all the different Quake engines. I recommended Fitz because it is something I use (I am windows user) but it can work with (QS/DirectQ/FTE) others as well. You are welcome to try other engines and let other people know if it works or not. Also don't feel you have to record a demo, it is totally optional if your situation is difficult.

@generic, awesome demo! :D You nearly had all the secrets and I love how you got the ogre corridor flanking route (door just before GK) :) 
Excellent. 
For The Nth Time: Continuous Demo Recording Trick 
Even though some engine ports may support demo recording and/or playback across deaths/level changes, there's an easy trick to ensure maximum compatibility. This is far better than lazily relying on external means or luck - after all, you want the author to watch your demo, do you not? Just a few steps:

0) Quicksave at key points while playing.
1) If you die (a) or exit a level (b), stop the current recording.
2a) Disconnect.
2b) Proceed to the next map and quicksave. Then disconnect.
3) Start a new recording in the console with a different name and without the map argument, e.g. record demo2.
4) Quickload. The demo will continue from here. 
 
It is a massive pain in the ass to do that! And I cannot count the times where I overwrote the previous demo by forgetting to use a new name.

Someone please re-summon jdhack so the his engine can finally be released for all the goodies. 
Great Map 
Had lots of fun playing, didn't find the layout confusing at all and thought the progression flowed very nicely. Lots of good opportunities for monster infighting and general mayhem.

Skill 3 demo, 256/256 kills, 9/10 secrets (wasn't the golden vault supposed to count as a secret? I thought for sure I would get 10/10 with it)

Also, I played with Mark V, but I don't think it presented any issues, as far as I can tell at least. 
Gb 
Another way of recording demos with multiple levels - http://speeddemosarchive.com/quake/marathon.html
Yet another pain in the ass thing to do. ;)

I am itching to play this map but I haven't found the time to do so. Hopefully this evening. 
 
@Shambler, I was totally surprised you took the GK first and I assume that was your first run as well!?! I was expecting players would try the hard mode+ on 2nd/3rd play through. It seemed like you had a harder time with the SK side that GK. The end of the demo was unfortunate, I did not expect anyone to do that, sorry for that. Amazing demo. :)

@Berntsen, I did a couple of nightmare runs and I struggled. Awesome demo, you have crazy good Quake skills. It always amazes me how Quake players are so hardcore when playing new levels. The final secret you are missing is in the SNG trap room on the SK side. It operates the second lift which is locked. Technically the GK vault should of been a secret, but I just wanted 10 overall for the map. I love you got the ogre flanking route on the GK side and my favourite infighting was the 3 HKs killing a shambler! :P 
Sock. 
Ta. My demo is punishment for your principle of "the button is always hidden in view of the secret" - especially around the GA / double nail trap area :P. I did later find the first SSG secret and the silver key area secret with r_fullbright 1, and the other one only by noclipping.

I'd skimmed the readme about the GK vs SK paths and took the bait. I had great fun with the GK crushers and the Quad run. The only problem with the SK side was I got cocky as it was supposed to be the "easy" side and tried to get a big infighting party going in the RL area instead of playing normally.

The ending made me lol, I did complete it fine next go.

There isn't much to say about this map as it is excellent in all areas, especially the build quality, design style and varied and fun gameplay (and good monster traps). The only thing I didn't like so much was lack of variety in the secrets. Suffice to say I am really glad you've turned your hand to Q1 SP like this. 
 
I am really glad you've turned your hand to Q1 SP like this.

Yes so hard.

Time to replay this on skill 2... 
What An Awesome Map. 
Congretulations!
Excellent Brushwork, great textures, i�m stunned. Looks very octagonish and all fits so well.
Brutal gameplay, but in an excellent way. Was nearly constantly
under pressure, but there was always room to backup.
Shame on me, i managed only skill 0, yup.

Demo

Warning, demo is played KEYBOARD ONLY, QS doesnt seem to like my hub and mouse. For the purists out there!!

I liked the secrets, especially your signature secret (SSG).
Noticed a disappearing elevator in QS, that�s the only thing i can say about this map being not awesome and brilliant;)

Thank you! 
Demo 
Normal Difficulty. This is the one where the end area glitched out for me, but since it's close to the exit I'll just post it up.

http://taw.duke4.net/bstein_quakis.zip 
Good Map 
I enjoyed playing this map. Played on easy. Don't know how to do demos but when there were a lot of monsters I just strafed and pulled the trigger. I found 3 secrets along the way but didn't look to hard. Was to busy saving my butt 
 
@shambler, I felt no punishment watching your demo, I thought it was entertaining. When I saw the end of the demo I was like WTF!

@mfx, is that demo your first play through?

@quakis, I thought it was the fact you axed the fiend at the end, but I tested that arena a couple of times and could not find any fault. I wish you could get debug info from demo's or be able to freeze a demo and fly around to see what went wrong.

@lizard, yeah Quake is completely unfriendly when it comes to recording demo's, no worries, glad you had some fun. 
Sock, Yes. 
 
 
@mfx, your demo felt odd. It looked like you knew where everything was (items, monsters, secrets) and just found them. I can see the weird keyboard turning thing going on but the demo was strange, it felt like you had played the map before! 
Ahem 
sock, sorry understood playthrough as Not dying, so its the 4th attempt i think.
I can send you the 1st attempt.. 
 
@mfx, yeah the first attempt is always the best, regardless of how it ends. After that the next demos are just seeing if people repeat things or not. Personally I think a demo where things go wrong or are chaotic is far better than a perfect run. 
Yeah 
seeing the bloopers and lols. 
 
@mfx, not really. I want to see what people look at, how long it takes them to find things, which way they approach encounters, what enemies combinations are too tough, too easy etc. The first play through is a goldmine of information for level designers wanting to improve. 
So, I Played This Map, And Made A Demo. 
The only reason I played this, was to help sock out by showing him another first-run demo.

Having said that, I did have plenty of reasons not to play this map.

First, I downloaded it and opened the zip, and I see pak files, named same as id1 pak files. I thought to myself "so, I have to extract this to it's own folder? why? why would he do that?"

At that point, I did not want to bother; but I kept patient, and held on and went forward anyways.

So, I extracted it to a separate folder.

Then, I had to create a shortcut for the quake engine(darkplaces), and edit the shortcut to put in the "special commandline" to run the map. That felt quite tedious and annoying.

Playing the map now. I see items that I don't recognize. I think to myself "why would you change the items for everything? why change everything that everyone has become familiar to." -- You might as well call this a mod, because that's really what it is; it's not merely a map; it's a mod.

Anyways. I played through, and died, and didn't bother to give it a second try; because second-run demos is not what you're interested in, and I already hated every experience I had so far with this anyways.

The only good things I can say are: Good architecture/map-design and texture/lighting.

My recommendations are: Next time, make a map just be a map; a simple archive(zip) with your .bsp, and .txt files.

Demo:
https://anonfiles.com/file/48e5577287bb2b6540522b7a64fab88f

Bye, 
Forgot To Say 
The items were different; and therefore that contributed to me wasting time and wasting resources because I would pickup a health not knowing it was health.

In fact, at one point I thought the health was a button I had to walk on, or a switch I had to shoot. (yes, you actually see me shoot at one of the, in my demo.) 
 
I'll install the latest Quakespasm then, and use that to play new custom Quake maps. I think it would be wise if mappers tested their maps at least in Quakespasm, since so many people seem to use it... not to mention crossplatform support and being actively maintained. 
Lol 
so now engine limitations are the mapper's fault. You do realise deqer that quake was made in 1996 and wasnt exactly out of the door friendly for mapping/modding etc. 
Deqer Is The Master-troll. 
Who can even begin to compete with these posts!?

Anyways. I played it on skill 2, got 7/10 secrets, I think. Didn't die. Recorded a demo which will be uploaded soonish in Mark V, which records across level transitions (but apparently not after deaths, as Night Stalker demo proved).

Beautiful map - I appreciate and am intimidated by your craftsmanship and skill in all areas of level design. Thank you for quake-making - hope you haven't gotten it all out of your system yet! 
@Deqer = Well ... 
Deqer:

I see items that I don't recognize.

And keep in mind I don't view you as troll as the others do, but the diehard single-player Quake thought goes like this:

There are 800 +/- custom single player releases at Quaddicted that are stock id1 (i.e. Shamblers, Fiends, Rocket Launcher, Healthboxes and other ZZZZzzzzzz.)

Does the world need 801 of these?

I mean the body of work for the stock gameplay features in Quake is really quite massive.

Quite absurdly massive.

Now --- let us reword this ...

If you are looking for stock Quake maps and want stock gameplay, should you be digging this massive treasure trove of awesomeness up at Quaddicted?

With so many hundreds of these --- if this is what you are seeking --- it has been done before countless hundreds of times.

Sock isn't trying to re-live this often walked road, he has broader and more creative goals in mind.

Please take these infos into consideration. 
@deqer Pt 2.: Classics 
The Underworldfan site had a list of "All-Time" and Recommend maps ...

These are the top ones according to that list:

http://www.quakewiki.net/archives/underworld/qclassics.html

And these were the recommended maps:

http://www.quakewiki.net/archives/underworld/q1sprecommended.html

The existing standard Quake as "most imagine it" has scores of top-notch works.

From the IK series to Insomnia and enough individual maps to play non-stop for at least a year if you became serious about it.

In fact, I did a single player "hub map" called the Undergate that ONLY featured great maps that happened to be liberally licensed as well called the Undergate.

http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-talk/single-player/1463-undergate.html

It features only a meager 104 of these maps. 
At Deqer Pt. 3 
Another way to think of this:

Sock has been around Func for 10+ years and he is familiar with the existing body of single player works and is quite a creative gentleman and a true creative asset to this community.

And I know that your awareness of Func Messageboard community is newer you are exploring around and learning and poking around.

Don't place this personal exploration onto others to familiarize yourself with Q1 single player mapping past and present on others.

Look at the body of the existing works, maybe using some of the links I have provided above or perhaps some of the links others have provided.

Sock isn't looking to reinvent the wheel, he knows the existing body of work.

And if you don't, there are many resources available to learn about them and Quaddicted and some of the release thread here are a great place to start.

And definitely the Underworldfan links I provided above. 
Lol At Deqer 
did you actually read the readme file?

it is written pretty clearly

If you want to play the map with *your* original quake settings
delete the pak1.pak file. It contains the extra models (items) and
the quake.rc file with my recommended engine settings.
 
1st Run Demo 
Feedback 
@drew, looking forward to seeing your demo :)
@spy, wow oh wow that was awesome, I can't believe you did that skill 3 and with the hard mode + GK route as well. I still can't believe the amount of players who like nightmare skill so much. The spooning Shalrath's at the end was a classic! :) 
Ah Yes... 
...s3 players are part siren, part muse. I'd love to see Siewolf tear up one of your productions :) 
Ok... 
so I played through again and I managed to get 8/10 secrets.

How the hell do you get the shotgun in the cage at the beginning?

I found quad, invis, 3 wind tunnel shootables, silver and gold key wind tunnels, all the start area secrets (though they don't seem to count towards the secret tally)... one of the shortcuts that opens with a shootable in the hard mode area...

Whatever the last secret (other than the beginning shotty) I cannot find. 
Secrets 
** SECRET SPOILERS **

There are two secrets which everyone has missed so far in demos and I am surprised because they were not designed to be hard to find.

The starting SSG is a button on the ceiling next to the level in pipe. I tweaked the lighting so that it can only be seen when directly standing underneath it.

The second secret is in the SNG pit on the SK side and lowers the second lift which is locked. I suspect no one finds this because people move around that arena in a certain direction. This is something I had not considered but the flow of arena can influence how people spot stuff. 
Deqer 
How do you manage to get out of bed in the morning? 
Baked 
I understand what you're saying.

I still would point out though that a map (with custom models) should be flagged as a "CUSTOM MAP" or "MOD", rather "MAP"

For just a "MAP", typically you don't need to read readme's for special instructions such as that. You should just be able to extract the archive's .bsp and .txt files into id1 maps, and bam, you're done.

Otherwise, then the readme itself becomes abnormal or non-standard as well.

I thought this was just a map I was downloading; rather some special custom map/mod project.

Had I known the models were changed, I wouldn't played it. Who wants to play a game with different models in it after years of becoming familiar to the original models? Unless of course they know the models are changed because the download said "MOD" in it.

The models should've been excluded from the archive, and the readme should've said "want custom models? download the addon pak file here." 
Demo 
* I completed it, it took me 3 attempts, as my skills got a bit rusty compared to previous demos and i got into nightmare and took the GK side first, but was worthwhile. On the other side, this time i almost forgot i was recording a demo, so i couldn't feel the pressure from it.

- All monsters killed, all secrets and vaults found, except the SSG and SNG secrets.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein_cocerello_night.7z

- The first demo is just the initital zone and me playing awfully and too hastily, so i died very early.

- For the second attempt, i played carefully and got till the shambler that took a free hit on me while i was on low life. I forgot to use both the GL and LG so i was a bit tight on ammo, but that made the experience better.

- In the third demo, i began to record at the point i died to reduce the size of the demos and to don't get you bored. This time i killed the shambler staying comfortably at the balcony by dragging the knights with grenades.



* About the map, is very, very good. Twistedly nice layout with variety of rooms and combat types, good architecture, nicely positioned secrets, the big secrets (vaults) are always nice to have, and some original ideas, all blended with your personal style.

- The idea of giving the players more options is good, and way more polished that in your previous map, interesting is too the secrets that show you another way to go and play, highlighting the wind tunnels ones, even though the crushers, with that chaotic and intense combat barely gives your brain room to think about them.

- The idea of having everything organized by the textures is a good one, the problem (or not), is that it makes the player get used to it, even thought that is a good thing because it makes it so the players understand the map better, that makes the players able to avoid certain parts and maybe makes too easy some parts (the secrets). The secrets, found one, found all (almost). Maybe a bit more variation would be better.

- Even though the rooms have personality and are detailed, sometimes it seems like it is too similar and there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic, or it is about the textures, that need more variation.

- Like Vondur, i also thought that the wind tunnel in the SK side was a balcony, and spent some minutes finding the way to go.

- I haven't found the GK side particularly hard compared with the SK side, even though i tried it first. It has more monsters and more hordes, but i do think that it has a similar difficulty, even maybe the SK side is harder.
Maybe it was because i got hopes that it would be an nearly impossible side if i didn't completed the SK side first when i was reading the .txt and the comments here.

I'm not very found of those teleporting monsters at point-blank range. They are OK for hard and nightmare, but maybe for normal and easy would be better to drop them from some height or use the wind tunnels.
The knights using the wind tunnel was a very good way to deploy them, i am particularly fond of the wind tunnel deployment afar from the crushers in the GK side.
The shamblers, on the other side, can get some free hits and kill you if you aren't near cover when they appear.

- As you can see in the demos, even in nightmare, i wasn't struggling with the ammo and had way more than i could spam. But i do think it is nicely balanced, as that ammo is needed for those that haven't found secrets or used the traps and crushers.

- Overall, a very good map with no flaws, as the issues i mentioned before are VERY minor.

Congratulations, Sock!! 
Berntsen 
You have to slow a bit when playing, i got a headache when watching your demo. Good skills btw, but which attempt it is?, sometimes it seems that you know where to go and where the monsters are beforehand. 
I Almost Forgot 
Sock, the first elevator at the SK side disappears sometimes, as you can see in the demos. I played it in Quakespasm 0.85.7, if that can help you.

I forgot to mention too how much i like the starting area and all its secrets, i always like to explore and that part was superbly well done and good for exploring. The part about hinting that there is something to explore there is nicely done too. 
Yeah, Congrats To Sock 
someday i just wocken up















He's da man


______
i'm a bit drunken now (as always)

id like to play teh episode two (remixed by Simon)

and episode 4 once and firever 
Lovely Map 
brushwork, texturing and lighting are all top notch. I loved the theme and architectural style as well as the non-linearity.

As for gameplay, I found I always had too much ammo on normal despite the monster placement and gameplay setups generally being very fresh and well planned. The last arena was a bit too easy because of the 3 crushers and a blocked wind tunnel in the middle. It was very easy to lose a horde in the middle because of the blocking (and also avoid shambler lightning). The earlier arena with just two crushers and no blocking in the middle worked better. 
Nice 
Skill 2 has some pretty intense combat :) First play demo of the first 25% or something: michael.hudsondoyle.geek.nz/mwh2.dem (played in RMQ i'm afraid). Probably should have played in tourist mode for the first go... 
Stupid Firefox 
 
@Sock: Thanks. I did enjoy the flanking possibilities of the map, good for replay value as it gives the player different choices as to how they want to approach the map. Always nice to have lots of room to move around in as well, opens up for some crazy evasive maneuvers and trickjumping, which to me is an essential part of what makes Quake so fun.

@Cocerello: Yeah I noticed that as well when rewatching some of my demo, I probably twitch around a bit too much, especially when there's no combat and just exploring and looking for secrets. Sorry about that.

It's my first attempt actually, the only part I had checked out before recording was the skill selection area. I think after having played the game and different custom maps so many times one develops a sort of "game sense" for these kinds of things - how a map will logically progress or where monsters will likely appear.

Again, great map, will have to replay it soon and take the GK route first this time! 
Feedback 
@Cocerello, yeah SK3 is really unforgiving especially with the shambler locations. The SNG trap is tough because the spawn location is right in the middle of the area and can cause problems if the player is low on ammo/health. To make matters worse the exit from that area is heavily populated, but the player can clear this area before picking up the SNG, it depends if the player understands the flashing runes or not.

I am surprised you saved so much ammo and did not use the LG very much. I thought by giving the LG early players would have fun with it more often. Unfortunately many of the demo's so far have players trying to kill shamblers with the SG/SSG when they have a huge ammo belt of nails/cells to play with.

The idea of having everything organized by the textures is a good one, the problem (or not), is that it makes the player get used to it, even thought that is a good thing because it makes it so the players understand the map better, that makes the players able to avoid certain parts

That is the point, the player has a choice, if they don't need or want certain weapons they can skip the trigger trap. The choice is in the players hands. The map is not designed for a single play through, there are many ways to approach certain areas and the flashing runes is a design mechanic that develops over time.

there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic

Personally I love the SK side because of the vertical depth of the SNG room, it looks amazing to look up or down from within that area. I especially like the double Shalrath area in the corner with its many floors, weaving up and over each other. The SK certainly does not have huge epic space but it feels more interesting to me with gorgeous vertical eye candy and variety of floor heights.

I haven't found the GK side particularly hard compared with the SK side, even though i tried it first. It has more monsters and more hordes, but i do think that it has a similar difficulty, even maybe the SK side is harder.

The difficult of the GK side depends on which start route the player takes and if they want to have/use heavy weapons (SNG/RL) There are 3 starting routes for the crusher event:

1. Drop down pipe, fight ogres/HK and take one way lift down. This is the hard situation because the player has no space to retreat, no extra armour or weapons.
2. Drop down pipe, fight ogres/HK but open GL/MH balcony instead of taking lift down. This gives an important weapon early and buffs health for horde combat. Good starting location but things can get messy later on with the spike trap room.
3. Find secret button in wind tunnel and start in lower spike trap room. This is the easiest because the trap shooters empty the room, the player has a retreat location, gets armour and has a safe location for easily killing more enemies.

The GK side is about heavy weapons, horde combat and wide open spaces. The hard mode + is a way to start the area with less weapons and give the player more of a challenge by not relying on SNG/RL spam. Couple this with a different starting routes and the situation can get more difficult. The final wild card for the GK side is if the player uses the crushers or not.

The SK side is about tight spaces, planning attacks and effective use of floor heights. If the player rushes the encounters and thinks they can run around starting infighting they will be in for a surprise. Each side has its own merits and that is by design so the combat situations feel fresh across the while map. 
Berntsen 
The way i said the part about your demo is a bit misleading, i was just commenting it as it is something very curious.

On the other side, i don't think there is a reason to feel sorry, you play the way you want. And it adds another way to play for the mapper and the rest to watch, and that is always good. 
Feedback 
@nitin, it sounds like you need to play skill 2. I was going to fine tune the ammo for skill 0/1 but then I decided that people who choose that skill want to enjoy firing the Nailgun like crazy. If you want ammo conservation then skill 2 is the one, the map certainly offers enough choices that it can be played several times.

@mwh, I wish the RMQ engine had proper demo support like MarkV, not being able to pause a demo is frustrating. I do like the extra eye candy but sometimes it can get too much with a room of HK and the screen just goes fullbright. Your demo felt like you were playing on another skill level and were trying to rush the encounters. At least the map worked really well on the RMQ/DQ engine. :) 
Pause 
You can slow down or speed up the playback by lowering the host_framerate. If you set the value low enough, you can effectively pause the demo. 
Sock 
was going to do just that, I have some time tomorrow morning or monday morning.

Will report back on skill 2 playthrough. 
2 Demos 
1st run skill 2 no LG

2nd run hard + *with* LG 
Derp 
Feedback 
@negke, Unfortunately host_framerate is not an ideal solution because it slows down everything including the console response time. The pause function in MarkV is perfect and would be awesome if it became a standard across all Quake engines.

@Drew, thanks for your demo, awesome to watch. :) I especially like how you play with the monsters, setting them for infighting by moving around so much. I am glad you spotted the visual clues on the pipes in the central area. BTW you can jump to the first GA on the SK side. I usually prefer to go up the first set of steps, jump to the SSG, back up and then jump to the GA :D 
Demos 
The map has been out a week and I have got 20 demo files!?! They all show various sides to the map and I am totally surprised by how many people took the time to record a demo. Thank you everyone, it was awesome to watch what everyone was doing with this map. :D

20 Backsteingotik demos - 80Mb file size

List of contributors : Berntsen, Cocerello, Daz, distrans, Drew, FifthElephant, generic, Johnny Law, mfx, Mwh, onetruepurple, quakis, Scampie, Shambler, SleepwalkR, Spirit, spy and Vondur. 
I Miss An Edit Function 
Sock

* About the ammo:
I am by default someone that plays cautiously and that don't like to expend consumables if there isn't a good reason (for example most times i die in strategy games its because i saved too much resources and didn't expend them).
If you are talking about the second attempt, i do think i haven't done anything special, in fact i missed the traps and crushers, used the Quad very badly, and the monster infighting wasn't mainly on purpose.
If you are talking about the third, yes, i did some things: i used all the nail traps, even on monsters beyond those intended, searched actively for monster infighting to the point that on the central part, i retreated to the entrance so when the knights and hell knights went for me they would be hit for sure by the scrags, as both will be at the same height, but the things i do think that worked the best to save ammo were:
- Use the explosives only with groups.
- Use the quad at the best time.
Next time i'll put full demos, even if they become huge, so the mapper can see everything.
When i play a map with restricted ammo i use some tricks (not axing as i am awful with it). This time i wasn't actively and with the intention of trying to save ammo.

* About the LG, keep placing it in in future maps at the beginning if you like, it is a good idea. We don't use it because we are too used to that it is a luxury we can only find in the last parts of the maps/episodes, so even if you give it to us at the beginning, we will still use it only at the last parts.
After killing so many, i do think that no monster makes us nervous (maybe the gug), even the shamblers, so we don't use the LG against him. Being so used to kill them with SSG and SNG is another reason.
Resuming, keep placing it there, we will get used to that sooner or later and begin using it more (but i would restrict the ammo for it a bit if there is many combats that rely on surprises and ambushes, as the LG can render those combats useless).

* About the use of textures as signs, i was just commenting about it, about the fact that it is a double edged sword, that adds to the map a lot, but can lead to some situations when the player can use them in some unfair way, even though in your case it wasn't like that.

* there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic

I haven't used the right words in this part, and you have to get the meaning in this part not phrase by phrase or this small part, more like the whole paragraph.
What i wanted to say in that paragraph is that even if they are detailed, and have their own distinct personality, those rooms at the SK side give the same type of feeling, so after going through many of them, the player can get the feeling that all of them are similar.
This feeling can be appreciated more because the textures are using mainly the same colours, red/brown. This feeling isn't so obvious in the GK side because there is many types of rooms.

By the way, as a mapper,for the brushwork and architecture, i do prefer too the SK side, for the layout and the combats, the GK side. 
You Forgot Something, Sock. Or Did You? 
@Drew, thanks for your demo,

List of contributors : Berntsen, Cocerello, Daz, distrans, Drew, FifthElephant, generic, Johnny Law, mfx, Mwh, onetruepurple, quakis, Scampie, Shambler, SleepwalkR, Spirit, spy and Vondur.

Wow. All this thanks going out to people; and a list of contributors; and a large archive of demos. Yet, you forgot to mention/include my name.

You haven't thanked me for the time I took/spent to provide you with a demo and feedback despite the fact that I didn't want to play the map anyways; but I did so anyways, because I felt like doing a good deed.

Hard to assume that you merely forgot though, given my posts/attention in this thread. So, it almost seems likely that you have not forgot, but instead you're giving me "the silent treatment" because my positive feedback included complains about how you release and how you package your "map" (not "mod"?).

Heh. Funny.

The least you could've done was said "I'm sorry to hear that. But thank you for demo."

Oh well. I guess I can't always expect appreciation and patience from people, because not all people are mature enough to do so regardless of the situation. This lowers my expectations of people, and helps strengthen my own patience though; so, in a way, I should thank you for that. Thanks.

---

By the way, why are you releasing a pack of demos? Is that the trend now a days that mappers do after each time they release a map? Asking favors from people to record/submit their demos, then collecting/packaging them all and releasing an archive of those demos back out to the public; and so soon? Is that the trend now?, or is that just something you're doing (now) as a way to "rub it in" the silent treatment you're giving me--because you figured I'd notice it.

Funny. 
Oh Ffs 
stop acting like an entitled little bitch.

The guy is making great maps for an old game in his, presumably, spare time. The amount of time and effort it takes to make these and get the balance right is immense. And you're sitting there moaning because what? Because he didn't mention your name in a post and include your demo in a .zip file?

Well so bloody what! 
Just Because You're Paranoid Doesn't Mean They Aren't After You 
 
He Didnt Thank Me Either!!!!!! 
I did not notice the map being non linear (i avoid reading long text in readme files in fear of spoilers) so I am looking forward to replay it!

deqer: i would have sent that as mail, such anger in public can only end badly. 
Deqer 
you are an idiot. 
Deqer 
It's all a conspiracy! 
Don't Add More Wood To The Flames 
It won't help anyone. 
@Deqer 
Anyways. I played through, and died, and didn't bother to give it a second try; because second-run demos is not what you're interested in, and I already hated every experience I had so far with this anyways.

I did not see the point in checking your demo because you were already in a bad frame of mind before you even played the map. Any first playthrough feedback you could offer would be coloured by your frustration at expecting the map package to be setup to your liking. There was plenty of instructions in the readme file to how to config the map to your liking and for some reason you decided to ignore it.

By the way, why are you releasing a pack of demos? Is that the trend now a days that mappers do after each time they release a map?

This is something I did with my previous map Midnight Stalker and I know other players like to see demo's so I simply collected all the demo's I had tested together into one simple download file.

I suggest you take some deep breathes and think about what you are posting because at this point you are just trolling. You have already said on several occasions you don't like this map and far as I am concerned you are Flogging a dead horse. If you still feel the need to enforce your standards upon everyone I suggest you start a new thread.

@Spirit, your demo is included in the pack. You really should try the map a second time because there are plenty of choices and ways to get around the horde sections of the map. Check out some of my previous posts for possible solutions to the GK crusher room.

@Everyone else, please stop adding fuel to the fire. 
Late To The Party 
Here's some demos (fitz 0.85 with one level transition in the first demo):
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backgammon.zip

Have to start with a glitch to explain why there are two demos. I was an idiot and didn't add -heapsize like the instructions said, so the engine was stalling all over the place. I killed the first shambler in the silver key section, and got stuck. I did try the right thing of jumping into the wind tunnel, but due to the low framerate I didn't get enough height to get in. I try a few other things but don't get anywhere, so you might as well stop watching demo #1 there.

I restarted the game with the right settings and demo2 takes over from there. Map is obviously lovely to look at, the subtle blue lighting makes everything look fresh and exciting. The multiple-arch motif is a good bit of character.

Combatwise there was lots to enjoy, several good ambushes and the two big "crescendo" horde combats worked well. Finding lots of cells and the armour in the start map was handy. Favourite moment was lining up 5 knights just right and crushing them all at once, closely followed by taking the quad and the ring at the same time and becoming the hidden assassin.

Got 8 out of 10 secrets, which by my going isn't bad. Also found some of the stuff in the start map, which was handy. Sometimes I did feel like I wasn't finding secrets until after they would be useful, maybe that info's more helpful for a second playthrough. I found the gold key vault by paying attention to the sound cue, but I guess I missed it for the silver key? I went back to get it though, so that's ok. 
Speedrun 
Quakespasm? 
i'm back using the old ppc mac again, the pc's c��ted.

there was mention of using fitz 0.85, but for a mac it only goes up to 0.80.

can i use quakespasm 0.85.7?

seriously, it's been about a year since i've tried to do maps/mods 'n' stuff, kinda rusty.. 
My Mistake 
i derped like a f�ckwad!

folders all wrong..

stared playing, been a while, got my cheery ass handed to me VERY quickly, low on ammo, and i'l conservative.

this one is going to put me through my paces :) 
You Know 
I just replayed In the Shadows. As awesome as this and Stalker are, I'm mega bummed the full release of ITS is never gonna happen. Those maps are beautiful.

Anyways, as I said above, please keep mapping for quake. 
Its 
Is still in development though? He released a slew of new screenshots a month or 2 back and this was after he said he wasn't working on it. 
He Did? 
where are these shots?!?

Ps recorded a fairly lame skill 3 run in which I play cheaply, spend lots of time scavenging for left over supplies, and forget where secrets I've already found are. Also, it seems to dead end in the final room, after killing the first Vore. Might be an issue on my end, I don't know. And it's 2:20 and I have to get up at like 7, so I won't find out. WIll post demo soon 
Feedback 
@Preach, thanks for the demo's I did not realize the frame rate could have such a big impact on the trigger push brushes. I only wanted the player to be affected by the trigger when they were directly underneath. I tucked the brushes inside of the tubes so if the player jumps up and hits the edge of the tube it does not activate the push trigger. It seems you had a lot of fun with the Quad/Inv powerup :D I can totally understand the fun of crushing monsters, it is the main reason I keep using them in my maps. :)

@Orbs! I was wondering when you were going to have a look at the map. It was your previous feedback (too linear) that inspired me to create more open routes and choices. You do realize that the GK side opens on hard skill and you don't need to do the SK side at all?

@Baz, I believe this map works fine with QuakeSpasm and I recommend you get the latest version as well. This maps breaks a lot of original Quake limits and needs an up to date engine.

@Drew, it is funny you should mention that because I have not touched the In the Shadows MOD in a long time and loaded it up a couple of days ago to check out (I recently discovered r_shadows console command) what it looked like. I am still working on this project but the updates are very slow. I do post updates / screenshots to my ModDB site and I recommend you keep an eye on the site if you want to know what is happening.

I do have a big update planned for the MOD In the Shadows and hopefully it should be ready for testing soon. I have a couple of new monster types, some new maps, tons of new sounds and more story! :D 
@Baz 
Quakespasm runs on a PPC Mac due to SleepWalkR's maestro-like Mac dev skills.

So you are in luck. 
Yes It Should Run On PPC 
But it's mostly Ozkan's skills, not mine ;-) 
My Demos 
Not a lot to add to what's been said already.

I like how layered and challenging everything is, there's a lot going on and a lot to figure out.

I think the combats could have been a bit more fearsome though... I expect they were when not using the traps and infighting so much.

I can see this being an entertaining map to watch in demos, just because it's so open to player interpretation, but not player confusion.

I was going to record a third demo, but it was just a load of wandering around and missing stuff.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/upwjwbgky8o9mm0/ijed_backstein.7z 
Feedback 
@ijed, thanks for the demo's it was cool to see what you did with the layout. The GK side probably seemed confusing because there are several ways to start it. I really wanted to design the map so it can be replayed several times and still be fresh with different routes.

The difficulty of the map is better if you don't use any of the secrets or stuff from the skill selection area. How far did you get with finding all the secrets? I assume you went back to have a look? 
Yeah 
But got stuck at 5 and ran out of time.

Like most (?) players I tend to overlook the obvious hints and only pick up on things subliminally. Reading the thread I see people making the connections of the demo faces meaning a secret and the various functionality of the tele-tiles.

These were all things I picked up on but didn't consciously consider. I just knew when monsters would appear and that there'd always be ammo in the center.

Still going back in for more secret spelunking.

I know the DBS is an easy secret and I'll kick myself when I finally figure it out. 
@ijed 
It does surprise me how few players don't see the visual language, but to be honest it is a subtle thing which comes over time. The first DBS secret should of been easy but the flow of that room is broken, which is why the blood soaked gates leading to the GA don't do anything anymore and the secret button is crazy hard to find. 
Ah 
I wondered about those gates. Like the start of ITS with the fiend and the two gates - I get the feeling you struggle sometimes with the flow in the initial areas in your maps... but only because after that they're practically flawless.

Conveyance is a very tricky thing to get right, it's nice to see different approaches.

Which reminds me, I liked the fluted columns that converged to meet at the ceiling apices - made me look up a lot more and by relation around the level as well. Nicely offset by the variations in floor height. 
Gates 
I actually thought that the bloody gates were designed to fuck with the player's head, as a kind of latent threat that's never delivered on (notice I didn't pick up that armor in my 1st run demo). And also a kind of a visual throwback to ITS maps. 
In The Beginning 
I always struggle with the beginning of a map because it has to strike the right balance between not being so difficult to put players off and enough of a challenge to keep players interested. Once the first room is over, the item / monster scaling is fairly straight forward.

Originally when the player picked up the GA the gates would lock and the relevant skill level monsters would spawn. Inside of each alcove was a row of spike shooters and button on the back of the central column. The player could move around and fight or use the shooters to weaken the monsters. It was a grand plan but in the end turned out to be sadistic towards the player so I dropped the locked gates and shooters and went with just the skill spawn trap instead.

After creating the gates and textures I thought it would be cool to leave them in as detail and to spook players into thinking something bad might happen but it does not. From the look of most demo's players indeed were cautious when passing under the gates so the thought of danger proved to be more potent than actual danger. 
By Design 
I liked the fluted columns that converged to meet at the ceiling

I wanted the map to feel like it could support the world and that the structure of the room could support a huge amount of weight above. The best way to show support is with columns, but I did not want them everywhere because it would fragments the internal space of the room too much and cause the player to feel restricted.

I thought about creating Pilasters around the walls to show ceiling support but while they look interesting as detail they lack the impression of strength. The next idea was to create angled buttress because they can extend outwards into the room creating interesting shapes and imply support at the same time. Eventually I liked them so much I use them to round off all the corners in room and warp them upwards to create really strong vertical lines which is why everyone looks up. The architecture is leading the eye upwards and implying a strong structure. 
Support 
Yeah, I've only just started really thinking about the best way to show this. A believable structure that looks good is great for immersion.

Churches and cathedrals are a reference, specifically the joists and ceiling supports - the principals apply to any type of structure and provide the type of epic architecture that Quake needs.

Good architecture is my weakness though.

As to the first room - just an idea but you could have used it to teach the player about the rune floor / monster spawn mechanics;

The armor would be sat on one of the glowing rune textures. Upon picking it up the gates jerk down a fraction but don't close and a tele fx flashes in the room but doesn't spawn anything.

So the 'broken' spawn ambush teaches the player that things will happen later in this same set up, but does it in a safe environment.

And still scares the player right off the bat. 
 
i just like supports because they are an easy way to get the parallax effect by sticking them in the middle of rooms. 
Pillars? 
Yeah, and they're good for gameplay as well, though you do have to space out the walls a bit to avoid it become too close and allow a bit of space for the player to dance around fiends in. 
@ijed 
As to the first room - just an idea but you could have used it to teach the player about the rune floor / monster spawn mechanics;
Like most (?) players I tend to overlook the obvious hints and only pick up on things subliminally.
I think you need to check the first room again! The floor under the GA is a flashing rune symbol! ;)

Great Architecture comes from shape, form and relevant texture choices. I highly recommend anyone interested in architecture to visit places and take photo's. As much as it is cool to constantly check out reference images, they do not beat actually being inside of a building and seeing the scale for yourself. 
Wagh 
Facepalm. 
 
haha, don't feel bad. i didn't make the connection either. i even told sock "hey, i think it's kind of predictable how monsters spawn every time i pick up items" :P~~ 
Sweet 
Yarr.

This map was posted only 2 days after I went for a vacation trip through Europe without any chance of playing it before coming home...

Having finally played it, I can only again say what the others have already said - what a nice map. Nice environment, well-planned monster encounters, and even the sound was used well (I play with the standard Quake soundtrack).

Here's my first run demos:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein_mandel.7z

There are 3 demos in there because I started a new one after the skill selection, and DirectQ bugged out once somewhere in the middle so I had to restart from a save game which unfortunately messes up the monster/secret count, but it was something like 10 missing monsters and maybe 5-6 missing secrets. Easy skill. 
Feedback 
@Mandel, thanks for the demo's, I am glad you finally got a chance to check out the map. I was surprised you choose the easy skill because the way you move around the map you could easily play on normal skill and still have an easy time! 
Mandel 
Is a speedrunner - playing on easy probably makes it more difficult because it gives him less enemies to parkour off of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vz-AAMTxNY 
 
Hadn't played Quake for a while so had fun playing this one. I liked the ambushes; there was always room to move around but if you weren't careful, you'd get surrounded pretty quickly. Didn't die once (on normal) but there were a few close calls. Only found a few secrets but didn't really need them either. Design was nice architecturally speaking, maybe slightly monotonic overall though.

Here's a demo: http://www.freefilehosting.net/runmikko 
Feedback 
@Mikko, that was awesome, thank you very much. I get the impression you have not played my Q1 maps before because at the beginning you did not notice the visual language. Eventually after seeing several demon textures I sensed you got the connection. I don't care what any indie hipsters say, visual language is king! It was cool to see you use the crushers at the end, the pacing of the arena felt right and it seemed to keep you on your toes. :) 
Visual Language Is Fine... 
but not all secrets are created equally! Despite getting flak for the secrets in Deck I really stand by my decisions to make some of them intentionally hard.

I personally like the way you do secrets Sock, well.... except that bloody double barrel shotgun secret. ;) 
Can't Play! 
in both fitz 0.85 and Quakespasm I get an error about too many edicts. Wtf is going on? :/ 
Doh 
sorry. I didn't use malloc. Working now. 
Woah! 
210/224, 6/10

I should have played hard maybe, but that was fantastic. Some really nice set pieces (I really enjoyed the room where the floor slides away and forces you down), awesome gameplay throughout that kept me moving all the time, and amazing layout.

I love your secrets. I tend to put various unrelated secrets into my maps, but I really like how you set up some kind of marking that the player has to look for as a clue. It was interesting being able to get so much extra weapons and ammo from secrets and on the start map. I guess the map would have been a lot harder if I hadn't gone hunting for secrets at the start. I couldn't figure out the dbs secret either, though I already had one from the start map so didn't care.

If I play it again, I'll definitely do it on hard, since although I really enjoyed it, some of the set pieces did feel like they could have used an extra tough monster or two. 
Feedback 
@Than, the game play balance is designed without secrets, finding any will certainly make the map easier. I recommend you try the map on hard without any extra stuff, it should be more of a challenge.

Personally I like the fact that the secrets are hinted at, I can't stand hitting every wall with the Axe or looking for walls with texture errors. I do like the extra secret areas, something that necros reminded me to do and it was fun seeing people find them in the demo's.

The SNG trap floor room is one of my favourites because it does something that no one expects plus it was interesting to see how people reacted. That area was originally just the small floor section and the combat was really frustrating, opening the floor seemed like the perfect way to expand the area and make the fight much more interesting.

Opening floors or ceiling spaces is always a cool thing because it changes the combat dynamic and does something unexpected by showing the environment is changing based on player actions. 
Sock 
I agree that secrets should be hinted at, but I like the way you have a consistent style for the hints, so it's more obvious when there is a secret and personally I get a feeling of discovery even before actually unlocking the secret, then again when I figure it out.

I always add secret hints to my own maps, but they are not often obvious enough. I think this leads to many players spotting an unreachable item or locked door and then trying to hit every light fixture or grating with their axe in the hope that this might do something. If you establish a motif, then players are far less likely to do this.

Anyway, thanks for another awesome map! 
Interesting Points 
Often it's possible to 'smell' certain tells that let you know a secret is nearby.

But there hasn't been a standard for this, apart from the aforementioned wonky texture.

The demon face makes me think of what other types of recurring motif could be used. 
 
Hidden in plain sight is a good motif. Such as having bars or something that show the secret. 
That's Not What "hidden In Plain Sight" Means 
 
 
Sure it is.

If the secret area is plainly visible but inaccessible then it's clearly hidden in plain sight. 
 
"plainly visible" and "hidden in plain sight" are not remotely the same thing. 
 
And saying that is not remotely the same as explaning the difference 
 
hidden in plain sight means that you knew how to get to the secret all along, not just that you can see it. 
Append 
it also implies you discounted that solution because it was 'too obvious'. 
 
Lol 
spirit, that was much more eloquent. :) 
I Was Thinking Of Plain Hearing, Actually 
 
Like Zelda... 
 
 
i liked what czg did on easy for the secrets. i wouldn't mind hearing more of that. 
Tronyn Review 
Skill 3 Demo 
Several things got in the way of this, like my pc dying on me, but I finally got around to replaying this on Hard and recorded a demo. Found all secrets. Killed all enemies. The ending didn't glitch out either this time.

Here's the demo: http://taw.duke4.net/qsteins3.zip

Some notes;
If you're wondering while watching, I spun the mouse near the Silver/Gold wind tunnels to randomly choose an entrance.

Also, seems one of the secrets glitched out on me; Silver route while fighting Shambler. Was trying to figure out what I did. Only later when taking screens I noticed where the switch was... which is odd!

Still counts though! (cough) :p

I'm also currently writing up a review for this. Once it's ready I'll make another post. 
... Skill 2 ? 
Fudge, just realised. Hard is skill 2 isn't it? Gets confusing when I've also got Doom on my mind! Wish there was an edit button. :p 
2 = Hard 
You should totally upload that to https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/backstein1e.html (demo upload form appears when you are logged in). You'd be the first person to add a 100% playthrough after me. :) 
PS 
Some day demos uploaded will automatically be video captured and uploaded to archive.org and Youtube. 
Feedback 
@Quakis, yeah I was thinking that as well because the ogres were not rapid firing grenades at you which is something they do on nightmare skill (3). I tried to check but the console would not tell me what skill level the demo was record at.

I got the impression from your previous comments you did not like the map so it was a pleasant surprise to see your demo. I get the impression from some of your movement that you were still discovering stuff. It is the first demo I have seen that got the SNG secret!?! I am not sure why you used the axe so much, you had so much ammo you could have filled a couple of trucks and still had plenty left! Looking forward to your review. :) 
About The Axe... 
It was just too fun to use here! :P 
 
I now understand why Kinn did a crazy fast axe mode in Marcher and negke included a special quad damage axe mode in Red Slammer! :D 
 
the only logical next step?
dual wield axes. 
Yeah! 
 
Akimbo Stealth Kill Throwing Boomerang Axes 
 
Review 
Review 
Wow, thanks for the review, that is a lot of words! My only concern is that the thumbnails feel very dark (lack contrast) but apart from that I am glad you enjoyed playing the level. Plus I got a chance to check out the Motef review again, I still love the look of that level! :D 
 
Fantastic level. Loved the texturing.

Okay so where I'd make improvements:

The sk/gk vaults were very misleading for me. I was wandering around for a good 10mins completely confused (and lost) because i couldn't find the keys. I eventually figured maybe there are no keys and I'm just supposed to go to the exit. In which case you should have called them something completely different because silver key vault and gold key vault suggest there are keys to pickup. And in fact a vault. Where was the vault?

I played on medium, and most of hte level was a good challenge. The first crusher room I was too dumb to realise what they were, so just ran around rocketing everyone.
The final battle I used nothing but crushers so ended up with just about full ammo on every gun. I didn't end up using the lg AT ALL, and still had 80 rockets left, so in that respect it felt a little bit of a lacklustre ending. But then that's partly my fault because I'm an ammo hoarder.

One thing I did find is that for a large level, the texturing doesn't change at all throughout, so it does start to get repetitive and confusing as to where you are. I would have spiced things up a bit and introduced some different textures as you progress. When I was running around looking for the sk I got to a point where I had no idea how to even get back to the centre, so I had to noclip (which still took about 30sec to figure out).

Other than that, build quality and your detailing and architecture is fantastic, gameplay all well thought out. Can't wait for more! 
Feedback 
@Kona, wow I was not expecting to see anymore feedback for this map, thanks for the surprise! :)

The original design for the map was to have everything red brick (hence the name, gothic red brick in german) but it was too confusing so I quickly painted the silver/gold key sides different. It was too late in the design cycle to redesign areas to be different. In hindsight I should of realized this because no one except me is going to understand where everything is if the whole map is one texture pattern!

The vaults were really designed as something extra for treasure hunters. I don't normally do disconnected buttons because players will be confused but I thought Quake players would tolerate it better than most.

I really recommend you try a higher skill level, the hard setting is different and you will not have such an excess of ammo left! :) 
 
haha yeah i'm a bit behind on quake maps but I've almost caught up, pretty much just czg's honey to go I think.

Yeah I should play on hard not medium, I've played quake for enough years (17 years?) to not be such a pussy and upgrade to hard, haha. So the difficulty levels are probably more correct, just that I'm not playing to my skill level. 
Kind Of Jealous 
that you still get to discover honey. that was released years ago! 
 
@Kona, it does sound like you need to play my maps on Skill 2, I do make sure that every skill level does play/feel different. Give the map a second play through, you might be surprised! 
 
Cool map. I think I won't have anything to add to what's said already by others. Here's my first run demo: http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/backstein_erc.7z 
 
<onetruepurple> fuck yea beat backstein on skill 3
<onetruepurple> 256/256 8/10


Extremely hard, but still manageable. I had more luck crushing monsters this time round than on skill 1, oddly. 8/10 secrets isn't too bad given that I completely forgot the placement of most of them, I guess playing Zendar a lot helped in this regard. ;-) 
The MH In The SK Area Took Ages Even With R_drawworld 0, Though 
 
Feedback 
@onetruepurple, yeah this map is hard on nightmare skill because the large arenas are difficult without cover, but if the crushers are used then it is not too bad. It was one of the design ideas behind the crushers, player controlled cover, something the player can create. The MH secret on the SK side is indeed too hard, I wish I had turned the demon door into bars, at least it would have been a good visual clue. 
 
Omg, in the time this map was release I downloaded and forgot to play because I went on vacation...

With this last post I notest I didn't play it...

Fucking awesome map 45 minutes of fun gameplay on hard...

Many thanks for this Quake pearl!

Demo in attachement;

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/tr_back.rar 
Feedback 
@Trinca, Thanks for the demo, its always interesting seeing how other people play your work. There were several areas you visited that were alternative routes. The map is designed to be played several times in order to have fun with every different route. 
 
I loved the layout... you are a very talent person!

even if I mapped for 50 year I never would make a map like you do :p 
Hairy Vaginas 
a bit of cushion is nice 
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