|Posted by negke on 2013/08/04 23:04:07|
|An oldschool-flavored, medium-sized stronghold surrounded by rocks and lava - made by Matthias Worch, author of the all-time Q1SP classic Beyond Belief.
The map was originally started in 2008 with the intention of casually revisiting Quake mapping and creating a tribute to this undead classic. You may have seen blog posts about its development in the QExpo 2008 booth and on his website. However, due to various reasons development came to a halt shortly after the first beta. Eventually, MW gave me the permission to fix it up and release it, if only to make me stfu... :)
It was designed to be played in Beyond Belief, but the level can also be run in stock Quake. The only (slight) difference is in the boss fight.
Thanks a lot to MW for making this map and allowing for it to be released!
Also thanks to the testers and everyone else involved.
Now you have to make the Quaddicted entry because I had no idea.
stock quake, fitzquake engine demo.
I'm tired and I played a little conservatively.
This Map Is Beyond Belief
Everything going on here oozes 'old-school quake', yet still feels fresh as hell. Awesome :D
here's a demo of me dying repeatedly.
I don't know how interested MW is in demos, but just in case I'd say if you're going to record one, please make sure to set sv_protocol 15 beforehand for maximum convenience.
Quake 2 Maps
Would you consider making the Q2 maps mentioned on your site available?
A very old school look with an interesting layout. I love what he did with the spawns, finally a good use for them! :P Some really good secrets, my favourite probably the YA. The final battle was odd but I think that is because everyone expects the boss to die a certain way. Sorry no demo, got no idea how to change protocol :/
roulffff what a worchless map !
will dl soon
demo on the way.
Nice! Didn't like the boss fight and I did not see the blood when I first shot the button. Really liked the rest though! http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/bbelief2008-normal-Spirit.7z
Very old school indeed! Great use of spawns that I don't think I've ever seen before but seems totally obvious now :) Good secrets too, found 5/7 on my first run through.
I wasted all my ammo on the cthon and then had to do whole gold key room with my axe (luckily that room was mostly puzzles) but it worked out in the end :)
demo (hard, 17 mins iirc) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_bb2008.rar
Keep in mind Beyond Belief has a shootable Chthon. I added the button mostly as a savety measure for all the specialists here who would accidentaly play on ID1. At the time I didn't want to use too many hacks, or only simple ones, so there's no info_notnull boss. I explicitly mentioned the map is playable both ways, because people might want to play with the updated progs (BB is v1.0) and therefore accept it as a trade off.
In BB, the boss even has the potential to confuse players, too: if they think they need to kill him from the church and in the process forget all about the GK/door.
Kudos to Spirit for missing the biggest shootable button in the history of Quake mapping!
I missed the button as well! The problem is the boss, Chthon was introduced by ID as a monster you can ONLY kill with lightning. Changing the game play does not work unless the monster looks different or behaves different. Otherwise all existing Quake players will be confused and that is the majority of people who will be download this map nowadays.
The second problem is you have a Quad on a rock next to the final gate. I saw this and *assumed* oh I have to kill Chthon with damage otherwise why is the Quad there?
The third problem is why would I shoot at a button to kill a boss? Sure the button is huge sitting behind the boss (who is distracting me from looking around by throwing fireballs) but it does not make any sense...
I was trying to stay as close to the original design as possible. Since you have to shoot the boss in BB, the fight remains shooting-based on ID1 as well, achieved with relatively simple means. I guess it shouldn't have been mentioned it can be played both ways. As a safety measure the setup is fine, as an equal alternative maybe not so much. Though I do feel a little thinking out of the box can make this work still - think of it as a puzzle-fight perhaps.
Though I do feel a little thinking out of the box can make this work still - think of it as a puzzle-fight perhaps.
It would have been awesome if the boss was protected by something in the lava that was glowing. This mechanic could have been introduced earlier on in the level by showing a glowing object protecting another monster. So when you get to the boss you see the glowing objects in the lava and understand what to do. Then you could have used the lower platform with the RL ammo and the upper area by the gate as different angles to reach the objects in the lava.
I'll be eternally grateful to negke for finishing and packaging up this level, which had turned into a forgotten step child along the way. Back when I made this level, in 2008, I wasn't doing much professional level design anymore, and started this level as something to balance my professional life. I created most of the map while watching the 2008 Olympics (a throwback to 1996, when I did a lot of Doom mapping for Memento Mori 2 while watching the Atlanta games).
Since when I started the map I've had three kids, been very busy professionally, and have gone back to game design full time (so I did not feel like doing *more* level design after I got home). The title of BBelief2008 became a bit of a sad joke.
I haven't played this final revised map yet (only a in-progress version negke sent a couple of months ago), so I can't comment on any specific areas. I'll try to watch some demos later. The idea behind the final boss fight (which never got fully implemented and is causing some justifiable confusion now) was a twist on the original Beyond Belief ending. In BBelief, you have to physically kill Chton, a change from stock Quake that was explicitly called out in the level. You can only do this if you use the BBelief packages with that QuakeC behavior. For this map, I was envisioning different ways of dealing with the end boss - kill him via conventional weapon means, or fight your way to a pentagram, jump into the lava, and electrocute him via lightning while you we're invulnerable. None of that messaging was ever completed, and I didn't create stand-alone Chton behavior to ship alongside the map, either. So it's probably a bit convoluted.
Thanks for playing, I'm glad that the work I did found an audience after all these years.
Ironically enough, I don't even exactly remember how I used the Spawns in the level ;) But I do remember playing with unconventional ways of dealing with Zombies, Quad Damager etc. when thinking up the map. I liked the twist of encountering zombies without having found the GL or RL, and having to dispose of them via quad-SG, Spawn explosions etc. At some point, I was going to create a new mini Quad that could be scattered around the map regularly. You'd encounter an area with Zombies, know you can't pass, and go searching for the mini Quad (which would only last for a shorter time).
Spawns and explo-crates (which I never deployed, I think) were a riff on that same theme.
Thanks For The Release
I played it in id1 :( because I was launching it through steam :( because I was trying directq :)
didnt know that bbelief was an actual mod, I always thought it was just maps.
I loved the secrets I found btw!
I tend to die in that first lava area, there seems to be a missing bridge/walkway after i killed the 2 ogres.
Yeah, Because It's NOT A QUOTH MAP
So don't play it in that mod! Having said that, I have no idea why the walkway doesn't appear again there. I also noticed another issue where the two ammo boxes on the platform behind the GK door fall out of the level. I vaguely remember encountering a similar problem with DP in an earlier version of the map (and engine), but afaik that one was fixed.
Something for Preach to look into/clarify?
Negke,I�m Playing It With The Custom BB Folder From Quaddicted...
Latest QS version, since my new machine hates Fitz.
There is a bug in Quoth too...I wrote a whole extra developer mode option for Quoth which prints a log of all the triggers that fire, in the hope of debugging this issue. It turns out that wasn't necessary: as soon as I turned on developer mode an existing warning explained what was going on.
If you create a trigger entity and then delete all the brushes, sometimes your map editor screws up and leaves the entity part in the map file. This manifests as a point entity with no model, always at the origin of the map. If this happens with a trigger_hurt, then it can spell disaster for a player who stands in just the wrong spot, so Quoth tries to detect these triggers and removes them.
Of course, in this map it breaks down when it removes a brushless trigger_once. The trigger_once here is restoring the bridge, but by acting as a trigger_relay instead. In the next release of Quoth, we'll revise this behaviour so that detected rogue triggers are not removed, but just rendered non-solid so that touching them does nothing, but they can perform other actions.
Onto the map, first play demo:
(I die stupidly right at the end)
Awesome map, so old school it drives a yellow bus with gothic arch windows (with thanks to http://achewood.com/index.php?date=06232006
). Great use of the zombies, I recommend everyone try out the brute force way of getting the silver key on a second playthrough - it's hard but not impossible. I could tell that I had missed the nailgun somewhere, but I managed ok without it. Ammo and health balance was fine, I was a bit low on health in places but never so much I couldn't fight through.
Build is very consistent, lots of the flavour of classic ID maps with all the planks and metal pillars, but with more ambition in the outside areas. I liked the solution to make the boss killable in regular quake too, very unusual!
Found The Q2 Maps
OK, I see that the Q2 maps are available for download from the original site. Somewhat confusing but I found them.
Not Really A Mod...
Spirit: BBelief had a custom Progs, was wasn't really a mod. The only thing I modified were Chton (using somebody else's source) and the ending text. You can play the entire pack (except the last level) with stock Quake.
Tamarisk: not sure if you were talking to me about those Q2 maps. Either way, it looks like you found what you were looking for!
Good to have identified another issue to be addressed for version 2.2. However, normally being a mapping error this isn't something for Quoth to fix, in my view. The reason I say this is because, in fact, I did and do sometimes use touchable point-sized triggers in my maps. I didn't even think this would be a problem in Quoth since it gives point triggers a bbox by default. Also note that all the point trigger_once entities in this map have the notouch field set, anyway.
This is just a great blast. Fun, varied gameplay, a boss with a twist, lots of gibbing zombies and great lava themed castle map. Cheers :)
Yeah, to clarify, the detection disregards entities not positioned at '0�0�0', since rogue triggers always appear there. Unless you're really unlucky in the placement of your point triggers then they will continue to work. If you are in that rare situation of needing one exactly at the origin, the warning message also details how setting mangle on the trigger will suppress the detection. So either "mangle" "0.01 0.01 0.01" or non-zero origin is enough to distinguish your entities from an error.
Another interesting thing that this corner of the map did for Quoth was exposing a stack overflow. If you killed the 2nd ogre with a shotgun, the chain of 4 entities firing each other in turn, on top of the five or six functions it took to get from PlayerPostThink to Killed, crashed the game with a Stack Overflow error. Macro work is under way to minimize the number of stack frames needed to use an entity. Interestingly nails have a short enough stack to trigger this event without a crash.
One final fun fact - this one in general. There's a difference between a NOTOUCH trigger_multiple and a trigger_relay. The trigger_relay calls SUB_UseTargets directly - it's like the hacked triggers from http://tomeofpreach.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/build-your-own-trigger/
but without the touch aspect. trigger_multiple goes through the multi_trigger function; although lots of it isn't applicable it does let you set a delay between retrigger...
basically I have a quake tumblr blog and my post of this map is the most loved/reblogged in a single day. 10 notes in 1 day!
fun to play, nice secrets
Great gameplay and progression. Many nice touchs. Love the zombie combat and consistent mild trickery of it all. I found some of the design a bit scruffy in places but the atmosphere was good and the layout was great.
Wasted a LOT of Quad ammo on the Chthon........
Note On A Few Design Decisions (SPOILERS)
Watching Preach's demo was kind of funny, because he managed to highlight all the things I thought were fixed from the beta. So I feel like I should explain some of the changes and my reasoning behind them. Maybe this can helpful to others in similar situations.
1) As it turned out, the NG was (is) somewhat easily missable. When entering the room, the awaking zombies in the cave draw the player's attention to the left (also instinctively-prefered side by right-handers) while the NG is on the right side. Originally the area was a bit darker as well, but the lighting apparently isn't that much of a factor here. Even though the zombies aren't a threat, the players seem to prefer to rush towards the teleporter.
To prevent this, I made the platform the NG is on lower if the player entered the cave without noticing the weapon so the sound would draw his attention to the back and make him see it. Additionally, in case that doesn't work, the fence cracks open (originally only a visual detail) which allows him to get back to the NG room if necessary.
2) The SK in the zombie cave had some potential issues, too - which probably could've been solved with a centerprint, but I refrained from doing it. The idea should be clear: the player teleports in, spots the key on the other side and, not having any explosive weapons, realizes he has to find some means to kill the zombies before heading for the key which makes him explore the next part of the map. The cage he teleports into helps in this regard as it not only makes sure he doesn't boost out of the teleporter into the zombies' arms either by accident or recklessness. Still, this didn't keep players from trying their luck (which is okay as an option, but it should be understood this isn't the intended way), possibly not even spotting the exit and the Quad beforehand.
So I changed the cage to open on the back first in order to draw the player's atttention around to the exit. This is also now the only side he can jump out of the cage before it opens.
3) The next problem was the bars in the gore/spotlight room. Originally, they would open after killing the ogre that teleports in above. While this should be fairly straightforward, it turned out it also had some potential to confuse players and could lead them into thinking the way was blocked until getting the SK.
At first I put in a failsafe system that would open the bars after a moment if the player failed to kill the ogre right away, either due to not realizing what to do or the ogre running off or hiding behind the column. However, this didn't seem like a good solution, so eventually I made the bars open automatically (slowly) and let the ogre jump down if the player enters the hall. The construction of that area isn't optimal for the particular monster setup to begin with (also in a few other places) in terms of height and distance, but changing them to make their attacks work better would've been too much of a hassle.
4) The way to open the Quad bars didn't sit right with me for some reason, either. Although having a button somewhere that opens something elsewhere in the map is a standard Quake setup, I felt the bars and the button to open them down in the lava area were too disconnected.
This is why I put another button next to the bars in order to create a more obvious connection between cause and effect and at the same time help draw the player's attention to the Quad closet, because initially it was quite easy not to see - again, exit on the left side of the room, Quad on the right side; and the angle the player jumps down from the teleport destination on the rock supports his entering the room with the Quad closet outside of his fov.
The remote button then turned into a key-lock setup, something appropriate in the context of the map's theme, a chain or a machine part. I chose the cog, because the texture was already used elsewhere and it seemed the most iconic for this purpose. So now the button in the lava area, instead of opening the Quad bars, reveals a machine compartment where the player can pick up a cog (key) to insert in the button mechanism above (note the white poles in both spots). Admittedly, one could argue this is kind of too "newschool" for a map like this...
A Fucking Novel (cont.)
5) A potential progression stoppper is the GK/Chthon appearence. On ID1 it's okay, because you can't shoot him anyway. Playing on BB, however, players can easily get carried away fighting him from the church until they run out of ammo, then possibly backtrack to find more supplies, but in the process forget about the GK and the gold door. This can also happen when going for the roof secret.
I guess running out of ammo can be regarded as a call to rethink the approach here (although on easy skill, it might be possible to kill him from up here, in which case the opening of the exit door must taken as a cue). Problem is that some players actually managed to miss the GK door in the first place. To be sure, I added a centerprint telling the player to go for the GK door if he doesn't do so within a minute of picking it up, and there are dynamic arrows. Not very smooth, but perhaps not much of an issue after all.
6) As mentioned earlier in this thread, the boss fight on ID1 can be a bit confusing initially. But I think the compatibility system is kind of a neat feature nevertheless (and also a sad necessity these days, much like my Quoth detection :P). It works like this: the only distinguishing code feature of BB is the shootable Chthon. So in order to detect which codebase the map is run in, a Chthon spawns on mapstart in a remote room with a hurt trigger. If the boss dies, it means BB code is active, so the ID1 features (boss button, rockets, id1 exit) are removed. If he doesn't die, the BB features (cells, BB exit) are removed a second later and the kill count is increased by 1 with the boss_death9 hack.
Things I didn't change, but maybe should have:
The spawn setup after the SK door. Unless the player has enough nails or cells left, it's typically a pretty useless event as the spawns will often just jump past the player (who backs off into the doorway) and into the lava. I put a hurt trigger there so the player wouldn't have to fire blindly into the lava. Maybe the solution would've been just switching the shells box behind the fiend with nails...
I also kind of regret not having focused more on the ammo balance. Judging from the demos, it looks like people are generally pretty much filled up most of the time. I prefer a more limited ammo level (within reason of course) that encourages the switching of weapons and using different weapons depending on the situation.
Curiosity Killed The Cat...
To reassure you on point 2, it was clear what I was meant to do, your design worked. I was just curious if I had the option to try for the key straight away, and so I took the leap down there to check!
Here's my 4 death 1st run:
Seems no coffee for a week has seriously affected my quakeing.
Shambler Made Me Do It
A Real Treat
I knew from the first minute I started this map, I was going to enjoy it, and that's exactly what I did. There were so many satisfying moments in this map mixed in with the great gameplay that rubs me the right way.
Design, texturing, lighting and balance was all superb, as well as a good sense of exploration.
First run demo on hard skill:
That Looks Nice
downloaded, hopefully can play tomorrow morning.
Nice, old-school gameplay. Hilarious use of spawns, as others mentioned. Lighting was a bit bright for my taste in the outside areas, but was still ok and didn't look washed out. Boss fight was too easy (was playing skill 2 with bbelief progs).
Skill 2 demo, protocol 15: https://www.quaddicted.com/files/demos/bbelief2008_bbelief2008_hard_2013-08-10_SleepwalkR_15.7z
No word about the monsters behind bars? I found that great because you have to aim well.
You can totally jump to the YA secret, see my demo for mah awsum skillz!
Enjoyed it from beginning to end. The architecture was awesome, and the use of triggers and flow was great. I loved the use of zombies to force the player to explore elsewhere for a solution, and using the quad to force players to cut through the crowd as quickly as possible was so much fun.
fun map, but the first trick is hard for me and i get a very low % on making it the 2nd trick isnt that easy either and even the third trick jump is missable. Did this sometime ago and obviously should be improved (i actualy almost restarted) but meh i dont think i will anywhere soon
Too bad you didn't make the second jump at the first try. I can imagine it's tricky. The first jump shouldn't be so hard, though, as the distance is only just a little more than a regular jump?
Fun fact: For a while, I was considering adding a speedrunner secret that let you jump around on the rocks. Might have been fun, but also kind of pointless.
Finally Played This
good oldskool feel but would have preferred a bit more modern architectural highlights. The layout was fantastic though.
Also count me in as another person that took a while to figure out the chthon mechanics.
Nothing more to say that already be said, thanks for all that spent time in this project and for keeping this game alive.
there it goes my first demo.
Thanks also for keeping quaketastic alive :)
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