|Posted by Tronyn [220.127.116.11] on 2013/12/17 19:41:02|
|Hi everyone, for those who missed it, I recently released a Q1SP map through the Quaddicted Christmas calendar. It's called "Nyarlathotep" and can be downloaded at:
Screenshot here: https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/nyarlathotep.html
There are two maps, nyar.bsp, which should be playable in any engine as it's normal format, but the second map nyar2 is in bsp2 format like my last map Something Wicked (these maps require the latest version of drake, included with Something Wicked), and thus is only playable in bsp2-supported engines like RMQ, DarkPlaces and FTEQW.
The maps have low gravity and the first one in particular is unusual/experimental so some people will undoubtedly hate it, yet the second map is more normal and includes some weapons at the start. Merry xmas!
Heard About This Map In The Quake Advent Callender.
Gotta say,very well done map!
Wonderfully strange and gory map. :)
Needs More Enemies
I feel like these maps have the most interesting design I've seen in Quake in a while. I really enjoyed them both, with a slight preference towards the second one. I really loved how messy it was with the Droles inside the pyramid.
"first one in particular is unusual/experimental so some people will undoubtedly hate it"
No, people will hate it because it's badly balanced. The unusual/experimental aspect is great.
but ALL of my maps are badly balanced, lol.
Originally the player was only given the chainsaw, the wand (which can gib zombies when it's charged up) and a lot of health for about the first 2/3 of the map. I'm pretty sure someone would have hunted me down and killed me in real life if I released the map like that; I tried to throw players a bone by giving the GL, plasma, and lots of powerups. But still, I can see how it might be annoying to be attacked by hordes of low-gravity, long-range zombies which are normally a relatively weak enemy.
mr. T. what the status of your merger projekt?
And could someone point me the latest stable engine to handle that pak
i'm assuming the quakeforge engine can run it and doesn't crush?
was the 2nd map already in the advent calender release? if so missed it,having good fun on that one. Just shaved of another second on the run, but hmm stil want to try some more. already did 3 (slightly)different routes
Yes Great Fun Maps!
Very well done too!
Thanks Tronyn, the fun was sometimes so hard, it was annoying:)
Especially the first map...Man, i think i did like 300 tries(2.5 hours!)
But it was worth it. Visual candy at least for me, 2nd map is even moreawesome quakey architecture from another dimension.
got it down by 3 more sec, still a bit to much airtime, but you can get that DQSWJ* much higher even
DQSWJ? I think thats a first! :)
nice demo! double quad jump ftw.
I was hoping the one imp at the very end might be quick and stealthy enough to kill a few people. I still remember the one rottweiler almost killing me at the end of one of Willem's maps and laughing at that.
As for the merger project, it will almost certainly be done in the first half of next year, hopefully by the end of March even. I don't have as much time these days but even so there's not a lot of work left.
Can't Play It With QuakeSpasm
&%$#* ! QuakeSpasm isn't supporting bsp2 ! WTF !
I Actually Thought The Balance In The 1st Map Was Great
on skill 2. Died once at the start, before I 'got' what the map was about. Then adjusted accordingly.
Was all fucked up with the GL though, wasted so many rockets with it!
Also didn't realize the 2nd map was included so drained all my ammo at the end of the 1st map. Was a rough start!
And a rough finish. Think I died like 10 times before finally scraping through that final fight!
Awesome as usual though... Just gotta go in with the right attitude knowing its a Tronyn map.
Sorry no demoes because I assumed it would just be a little TM style tossed off thing. Shit, maybe for you it is... Anyways dumb assumption considering your output generally!
Nyarlothesque would be a good SM theme, also...
was looking for secrets to maybe attempt full clearance...how sloppy i missed this shortcut. the boost took me a while quite a hard angle
Need To Play The Second Map Proper.
but I struggle getting anything other than Fitz and DirectQ to work on my surface.
The first map is worlds better than it was in the Beta. Oh god, no teleporters and only the chainsaw and the fucking wand, Tronyn you are loco ese. I managed to complete it on my second attempt, I didn't even finish it in the beta without using noclip and god mode.
Meh Always Thelast One
6/7 secrets found, darkplaces doesnt noclip around as nice as other clients :P
in order of play
anyone found number 7 and could give a subtle hint?:)
Ahh A Good Old Typo
still no htttp protocol? Damn internet development is slow
TRying to play this with the latest version of RemakeQuake, how do I get rid of all the blurring effects (including in monster movement) and the glow around monster attacks??
I can't find the command line: r_lookfuckingawful "0" ....
Now how the fuck do I disable interpolation?
Why Would You Disable Interpolation?
The one thing that quake needs is smooth enemy animation.
Also, Thought I Should Elaborate
onetruepurple Registered, rated this a 2
I'm sorry, but I legitimately hated it.
The theme was not so much "wasted" as "completely misused", since getting constantly shot by z-aware zombies with projectiles rendered barely visible with the setting, while navigating the player *and* grenades is severely handicapped, with a radically limited number of medkits, is the epitome of bullshit.
Why Would You Disable Interpolation?
How the fuck is this even a question? Am I not allowed to have a preference?
Take A Chill Pill Bill.
I was curious as to why anyone would disable a genuinely good feature. Ok, fine it's a preference. But still, isn't it distracting that it looks like a really poor stop motion animation?
Meh To Much Hate
that grenadelauncher almost becomes like a rl if you get used to the settings, you just have to aim slightly below the target Besides that, the crossbow is good to
Otp Is An Angry Little Boy
Did scampie interpolate his mom or something??
not man enough to beat the first map...
I hope this will.get recompiled to actually be bsp2, then it would run in quakeforge which is a faithful engine.
I played this in Fitzquake mk V, spike's version, and didn't see any issues at all. Isn't that one pretty faithful?
BTW I loved the map visually, and I've spent quite some time playing through the second map, twice. Both times however in full-on coward mode with every cheat activated. This type of gameplay isn't my cup of tea!
Props to Orbs for making demos, unfortunately I won't install darkplaces to watch the second set. Even tried with ConvDem to see if it could make a normal demo out of it but it can't?
No idea, it does not run on Linux.
I can definitely recompile nyar2 in the proper bsp2 format, although I'm less likely to recompile the Something Wicked maps due to vistime issues.
God, I Hate BSP2
and 2PSB or whatever. We finally had good cross-platform engines, and then someone comes along and invents a new bsp format. Thanks for nothing.
Sorry if anyone feels offended, but it's super annoying if you're not able to play these maps because there's no engine that supports them for your platform of choice. I'm just shaking my fist at the sky.
Change your platform of choice, duh!! Don't be stuck in a rut!! If you don't use RMQ you are a whiner stuck in the past!!! #2013 #YOLO
will comment after I play it on Christmas day.
Re: Bsp Formats
Well guys, we never would have had the RMQ demos - which contain some of the most astounding maps of recent years - without the new BSP format, and besides, it was going to happen sooner or later. If I CAN compile a map as BSP1, I do; it's annoying, perhaps, but without this format there'd be no bsp2 (RMQ, wicked, etc) maps to be annoyed at.
Plus, from a mapper's perspective it offers some overdue improvements. At Inside3d I was told "If you build it they will come," meaning more and more engines will support (proper) bsp2 over time. I guess my use of bsp2 came from my admiration of the RMQ project (and general desire to build on a large scale), but I do hope that eventually most of the engines will support it.
I'm Building In BSP2 Now
And don't have all the features I'd like. Sock asked me if I was worried about developing for an engine that isn't finished / doesn't exist yet and I said no.
Basically, 'If you build it then they will come'.
Personally, I never set out to break the game by adding things like moving sounds, monster specific gibs, really big maps with lots of animated lightstyles and so on.
It was just a case of doing what was cool and having fun with it. The technical limitations are incredibly easy to overcome with a bit of work and intelligence. But as this is only a hobby and everyone wants to take it in their own direction it's hard to get, for want of a better word, unity.
We could just sit and play the id1 maps forever and never want to push the boundaries, but thats the great thing about the game - it makes you imagine more stuff beyond the slipgate.
This Video Has Been Copyright Flagged
I dun vidyuz : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83j8yO21FZU
Enjoyed the first level quite a lot. The second one was great until I got crushed picking up the silver key :P
i'll "document" it for you. you can see the "charge" of the wand: if its ammo hits 4 its fully charged.
(wasnt actualy watching it just listening it like radio while tidying up)
Love The Atmosphere
I loved the start to nyar map 1, the beautiful red fog, lovely flesh textures, spikey architecture, fantastic vertical view upwards and then I died ... a lot!
IMHO I think the start should of been empty, let the player enjoy the view, the atmosphere, place the weapons in the middle and then trigger drop a few zombies on to the player. Gradually build up, have the zombies above spawn in waves, give more shortcuts, architecture to fall onto. If you get hit you fall a very long way and it becomes frustrating having to climb up again.
I really want to play a tronyn map where I don't have to turn on god mode all the time. The map architecture and atmosphere was amazing, I just want different game play!
now i understand our different views on gameplay @ zendar, you seem to find quake should be a entertaining and forfilling experience where as i'm expecting a Spartan tortoruos drill with lots of pain and frustration!
I geuss its a choice of catering the stoner or the adrenalin junkie
Quake Is Both...
I can breeze through episode 1 on nightmare but have a tough time through episode 4 on the same difficulty.
People cater to their own tastes, I usually play through his maps on hard and experience a good challenge and have fun at the same time.
Map 1 of Nyar isn't that hard IMO, I think map 2 is much harder.
I died more in map 1 than map 2. Just because the gameplay I had to learn anew in map 1 - the zombies, mummies and Egyptian guy (wtf are those called anyway) caught me out a lot.
In map 2 the gameplay was more predictable, I think I only died on the SK crusher there.
I think I enjoyed map 1 more though, just because the gameplay was so new and weird.
Sorry if anyone feels offended, but it's super annoying if you're not able to play these maps because there's no engine that supports them for your platform of choice. I'm just shaking my fist at the sky.
Also, FTE. Darkplaces. Completely obscure niche engines, I know.
What's your platform? PSP?
Sleepy is an Apple fan boi who not uses Darkplaces! KARAMBABOOM!
Seems Like Somebody Got Offended After All
<Daz_> get rekt
There are several engines which support bsp2 on macs, to my knowledge.
ah oh gotta agree with otp. while the first map looked great(!!!!!) the gameplay was utterly awful. remember how everyone hated the xen low-grav jumping levels at the end of half-life? add to that zombies throwing gibs from all over the show that never miss, and completely useless weapons, and that doesn't add up to fun gameplay. challenging, yes. i put god mode on after about 5 minutes.
the second map was much better. I was never much a fan of the coagula type maps, big floating platforms in a black void just isn't quake to me, but even so the level looked pretty amazing in parts. the design was quite awesome. i loved the part when you get the rune and the top opens up around you. tronyn-esque mass hordes of monsters but without being too difficult, i don't think.
Darkplaces is the only engine that supports BSP2 on Macs (no FTE binaries for Mac, sadly), but I'm not a big fan of DP's visuals.
DP can easily be set to look like vanilla tho. Minus the water warp maybe.
I thought Sock managed to get a pretty sexy look out of Dark Places with his ITS mod?
How? Is there a vanilla DP config somewhere?
Here's A Couple Shots -
I think he just altered a bunch of cvars until it looked right. I'm sure DP has things like gl_nearest and other settings to make it look quakey.
A vanilla config would be nice I agree.
These get close enough for my liking. I'm sure there's some other vars that can be set to make it look more like Fitz etc if you're picky.
For starts, go to options and set...
particles > quake
lighting > normal
(to lazy to look up the relevant cvars)
Use these to scale the menus/hud...
This makes the statusbar opaque...
There's some more sbar settings to hide some cruft
I guess the weapon bob isn't like quake, but I actually prefer the more subtle DP motion. There's some settings for it so I guess it can be tweaked. The weapon interpolation interpolates the muzzle flash etc, I usually play Quake with DirectQ which solves that so no idea if other ports do it. As for alpha tested particles, no idea, might need one of those custom effectsinfo.txt thingies. The monster animations freeze when they jump in DP, no idea why.
The following settings might improve performance in BSP2/2PSB maps if it's giving trouble. (thanks to Slapmap for pointing these out)
This has to be one of the most original, and creative maps I've ever played. It challenges the player in a new way by fighting your way upwards amongst an army of angry zombies, all the while in a low gravity setting. It's truly unique in every aspect.
I can understand how some might dislike the gameplay, but to me, I loved it. Its different, in a good way.
The second map, while I enjoyed, I didn't like as much as the first. Its very detailed no question about that, but I suppose horde fights in large open areas just don't really do it for me. For someone who does enjoy that sort of gameplay, the second map is a real winner.
Always fantastic work from you Tronyn, you never cease to "wow" me.
Played through with latest dev Quakespasm no probs.
Absolutely top notch Quake :). Cheers T. The huge demon effigy on the wall in wickedend (Something wicked) was awesome. Nyar1 was just amazing.
Gameplay was occasonally a little too tough on skill 1. One of those corner roman pillars on a roof was transparent to friggin enemy attack aargh &*(&^. And the Droles inside the pyramid were tough.
Your route finding hints were appropriate .. but the "Entrance is below" was unfortunately confusing though the entrance was amazing.
An Exercise In Punishment
Knowing Tronyn style, I didn't lend myself to any illusions about the difficulty of these levels. And rightly so... tough as nails to say the least.
I remember the first map from one of the Something Wicked betas. Sadly, it seems not much has changed from the initial build despite the problems being known. While the vertical/low gravity idea is nice, certainly something unusual in Quake, in this map it just doesn't work the way it's done.
The constant spam of zombie attacks makes it no fun to play. Hordes of z-aware zombies with seemingly unlimited range and pretty much all awake at once, coupled with an environment that makes their projectiles very hard to see and slow movement speed due to the gravity, is guaranteed to leave the player frustrated and annoyed fast as there is no way to keep from getting hit all the time.
One little screw-up can lead to losing a large amount of health since the zombies can basically keep the player stuck in mid-air and leave him incapable of dodging the attacks.
In such an environment, important items like chainsaw, wand and armor should be given *before* entering the lion's den, not inside and easy to miss. You generally want to allow the player to be well equipped at least if he's going to be sent into an unfair combat. This is not the case here - there's a lack of ammo and especially health which quicky leads the player to considering the situation impossible to master.
Another thing that I found to be bad was the lack of proper clipping. There are countless architectural details the player gets stuck on or has to jump over, e.g. light fixtures on walls and floors, when especially jumping means taking the risk of being unable to dodge the attacks from all sides. Wouldn't have been a problem to clip off stuff and turn some things into illusionaries.
It's good there are shortcuts, but their usefulness is decreased by the fact that the player has to use the teleporters once in order to unlock their counterparts on the bottom floor. And one of them above boots you right over the ledge again.
Once one reaches the middle of the map, gets the plasmagun and disposes of most of the zombies, the map becomes more bearable, although the mummies and the morph guy are way overpowered.
The second map was more fun, although it suffers from similar problems as well.
The initial battle is very hard - again, lots of hard-to-see but deadly projectile spam from the scorpions and very limited supplies. After the unlocking the upper building, it was more or less okay. The SK crusher felt like an asshole move. The spikes kind of give the trap away, but most people drop down right onto the key not expecting anything like this.
It's possible to jump over the GK bars (over the coffin) as well as up onto the scaffolding. But it's probably not a deal-breaker. The Shubs all face the same direction, presumably the default angle, which felt like sloppy design. Does the map really require BSP2 format? It doesn't really look that excessive, at least not in a "limits++" kind of way.
I'm suprised many of these issues either didn't come up during playtesting, or maybe they did and the feedback was not addressed properly or ignored. It's a bit of shame, because I believe these maps would have been received a lot better if they hadn't been made this uncompromising in terms of gameplay.
In maps like these, let's call them "slaughtermaps" for the lack of a better term, the player needs to be properly equipped, not grind on his gums most of the time. You may think too much ammo and stuff makes them too easy, but this is not the case. Even fully equipped with full health and red armor, the player can easily get overpowered and die nevertheless. Taking away supplies in this situation makes the odds even more uneven.
Add to that the fact that the Drake mod seems to be catered to your preferences (versus a general purpose mod) so the difficulty is greatly increased to begin with - monsters have more HP, faster attacks and movement speed, deal more damage etc. So you might want to use it with discretion. As it stands, most of your maps have the player under constant pressure throughout the entire map, constantly punishing him. Use the skill settings more considerately! Currently your normal skill is often harder than id nightmare.
In Nyarlathotep, it was only halfway through the second map that the item balance finally worked in the player's favor.
Generally, I did enjoy the maps. However, in my view they are unnecessarily stressful where they could or should have been fun, and leave a lot of room for improvement. I suppose it would be appropriate to regard Tronyn as some sort of excentric artist, all stuck in his ways... :)
In terms of theme and style, the maps are very cool and unique. All those whiny purists can gtfo. Though the skybox, while enforcing the weird/otherwordly vibe, makes the level looks quite busy at the same time.
I Agree, "but"
I did mention a lot of the above when I tested, but I did so far too late.
Having said that it seems I didn't suffer as much as most with these maps, not because of l33t skillzorz but because they're attrition maps (wtf slaughter maps!?).
Tronyn's gameplay style is attrition. But at the same time it gives us this gore/Egyptian theme, something incredibly solid and - drum roll please - brand new to quake. There have been similar themes in zerstorer, but here it was something else.
I can foresee Nyarlathotep speed mapping and emulation maps in the future. I'd like to make one, at least.
I liked drifting upwards amongst the zombie gib spam. It could have been more forgiving, but then we'd have lost more things of the creative vision, maybe all of it.
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful feedback. This is why you make an awesome tester. Over the years, the consensus has clearly been that what I consider fun, challenging, relatively balanced, etc, is not what most people think. I held on to Something Wicked for a long time and tested and retested it, since I wanted to achieve a closer-to-consensus balance, and I think I did there. You are right about the clipping (I imagine you mean mostly horizontal lights on platforms in map 1). Here, I tried to make it easier by providing lots of powerups - lots of people found the first pentagram and I think the ring in particular is useful to avoid all the zombie attacks several complained about. Perhaps the Drake mod monster AI could be toned down (it's actually PM's preferences, but I've gotten used to it), or there could be a bigger jump between skill levels. In any case, I'll definitely be writing you about testing my next release when the time comes (iirc you played all the way through beta versions of wicked like 3x, which was much appreciated and contributed to the final map being considered one of my more balanced ones). Cheers.
I totally am stuck in my ways though, heh, it's part of why I'm still making Quake maps. Still, one can try to correct for it.
PS, nyarlathotep speedmaps would be awesome. I almost feel guilty for using such a cool Lovecraft title!
I Enjoyed Map 1
a lot, especially considering how much improved it is over the beta. But I had to god mode through map 2 and I found it a chore. Dying over and over again isn't fun for me in Quake, I enjoy a challenge where I get a lot of close calls and I have to claw back success but in this I felt like I was getting smashed into the ground over and over (in map 2).
Something Wicked was a great map, but you can't always make the same type of map, breaking out and doing something new and different is the only way to maintain interest.
In such an environment, important items like chainsaw, wand and armor should be given *before* entering the lion's den
Yah ... i missed the nail gun from some choatic arena, and was playing without it for ages. Made life bleddy tough. I never reached the tipping point though (never used god mode).
with all those wimpie winers about them being to hard. Almost anyone still playing Q1 is a vet, compared to playing an online match vsdecent players 95% of the singlemaps are walks in the park, go watch a dvd if you are afraid to die.
Shut your fucking gob.
If everybody is a vet, then why are they complaining?
Tronyns maps are like the evil spawn of sandy petersen and satan himself.... (except tronyns maps are pretty)
I'm not saying the maps should be easy. I'm saying they should be fair. That's an important distinction. Although, indeed, a little more refinement of the individual skill levels would go a long way, too.
Facing an overwhelming army is one thing, it forces the player to consider his approach and adjust his strategy, but being locked in a cage and shot at from all sides is another.
I disagree that almost everyone is a vet. In fact, not that many players can or want to deal with hardcore++ gameplay all the time. Actually, the whole vet notion is responsible for a trend in Q1SP that caused the majority of levels especially in the second half of the last decade (including my own) to be grind gameplay - which I don't enjoy anymore.
I acknowledge the experimental nature of the first Nyar map. Not sure how it could have been improved for the general player. Perhaps if there had been a little more cover on each balcony and if the zombies had been more visible from a distance, for example by having them stand against a contrasting backdrop like a brighter texture on the wall behind them, or having them glow with the "effects" trick.
Drake Merger = the Dark Souls of Quake!
What does "fair" mean though? Is it fair if it is possible at all? Look at the popular "lol so hard omg i bokre my controller" games.
You don't have to like all maps. It's great if there are maps for people who want a hard challenge as well as maps for sight-seeing.
(Haven't played the second map yet but I did enjoy the first one once I got the hang of it (and I agree that weapons should better not be "hidden within combat")).
The first map would be much more fun if you had a RL with full ammo. And Tronyn I hate that the RL is limited to 50 rockets in Drake lol.
Just on the hardcore gamers thing... I play a lot of games, more than probably 90% of people. But the thing is, I don't want to be challenged too much. Whether I'm a vet or not, I don't want games where I'm just about throwing the keyboard through the monitor because it's too hard, and I'm having to ramp my adrenaline up to get through it. Games don't need to be like that... adventure games aren't, and people play those right. So I'd be just as happy at killing a few ogres in a nice looking room, than killing 15 gaunts in a huge arena.
I actually put this one down to easy difficulty if I recall.
I've just played Dragon age origins and Left4Dead, and looking at a lot of the mods that have been made, they seem to be for hardcore players wanting a bigger challenge than the game provided. So would Quake be any different?
Yeah, Tronyn always seems to withhold the RL until very late in the maps.
Not Much To Say
Awesome hords to kill to relax from day 31 of December!
After survived to 1% died in that trap of spikes :( dawn...
Happy New Year to all and thanks for this Christmas gift Tronyn
Sorry Did Not Enjoy This At All
the gameplay mechanic was definitely unique but it was overabused by the relentless attack/pressure the player is under for the whole of map 1. There is no downtime or buildup of combat at all and I found it a real slog. Not even enough of a breather to soak in the atmosphere, a big no no in my opinion.
Map 2 was a bit more normal Tronyn but I would say given that it was almost made for a different game what with the scale and types of brushwork being attempted and then the waves of monsters to slaughter without much thought as to placement.
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