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Mark V - Release 1.00
http://quakeone.com/markv/

* Nehahra support -- better and deeper link
* Mirror support, "mirror_" textures. video
* Quaddicted install via console (i.e. "install travail")
* Full external texture support DP naming convention
* Enhanced dev tools texturepointer video inspector video
* IPv6 support, enhanced server capabilities
* Enhance co-operative play (excels at this!)
* Software renderer version (WinQuake)
* "Find" information command (ex. type "find sky")

Thanks to the beta testers! NightFright, fifth, spy, gunter, pulsar, johnny law, dwere, qmaster, mfx, icaro, kinn, adib, onetruepurple, railmccoy

And thanks to the other developers who actively provided advice or assistance: Spike (!), mh, ericw, metlslime and the sw guys: mankrip and qbism.

/Mac version is not current yet ...; Linux will happen sometime in 2017
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@esrael 
That's a hell of an awesome catch!

I'd like to think I spot stuff like that.

Baker fail +1.

Now ... what I did was this ... I added ericw controller support. But I didn't want all kinds of joystick buttons showing for people without a joystick, so I made the display dependent on whether or not a joystick was connected.

But I was "too clever by half" ... and a tad not careful enough ... 
Mark V - Version 1.99 - Revision 3 (I Blame Esrael!) 
http://quakeone.com/markv

Download: Windows - DirectX | WinQuake

Revision:
1) mwheeldown wasn't showing due to a <= vs < typo (esrael)
2) Link to DirectX 9 drivers on homepage (mfx)

Experimental/requested extra builds: Alternate Builds

Question of the day:

Is DirectX Mark V faster than VxQuake (Vulkan)?

I have reason to suspect DirectX Mark V is faster than VxQuake.

(start.bsp beginning has a mirror there that Mark V uses so that is not a good test spot). 
Triple Speed Screenshot 
Screenshot: DirectX Mark V sometimes 3x speed of FitzQuake 0.85

And from what I have seen, VxQuake using Vulkan is only about 15% faster than its source base.

But the mh DirectX wrapper is offering a frames per second jump that is vastly greater than 15%. 
 
There's no point benchmarking an engine in small tight corners with very few polygons visible. This is the same syndrome as "50,000 fps in dm3 - woooo!!!!" - it's a meaningless statistic.

Benchmark it under heavy load, then do a comparison. You'll likely find that D3D9 MarkV is substantially slower than either QS or VkQuake (but substantially faster than Fitz) because it still hand-feeds all vertices to the GPU every frame, whereas QS or Vk store them in on-GPU buffers. But that all depends on where the bottleneck in your system actually is.

For the record, I make absolutely no claim whatsoever that my cobbled-together wrapper is faster than properly written native code, and I would always recommend properly written native code over a wrapper. 
Addition To The Above 
It's OK for Engine A to run at 200 fps in dm3 whereas Engine B might run at 5000 fps.

What matters is how they run in a map like sepulcher. If the same Engine A runs at 150 fps in sepulcher whereas the same Engine B runs at 30 fps, then Engine A is clearly the better performer. 
 
Waiiiit, Fitzquake had a noshadow list? Hmm, must have been inaccessible to the user, and only existed in the engine code? Ok, in that case, if you grabbed your list from Fitzquake, then it was Fitzquake that had an error in its list. Way back on the old page, I first reported that bolt.mdl was missing from the list, then I clarified that "bolt1.mdl needs to be renamed to bolt.mdl" See, that was just a typo in the original list: it did not contain the actual bolt.mdl but it did contain the non-existent bolt1.mdl (simply, the "1" should never have been there). So that's the reason Fitzquake had it there: a typo, not some intentional inclusion. Of course, even if it was an intentional inclusion to account for some specific mod, I would be against that too (it's not the engine's job to account for every custom model that a mod might use -- the correct option would be for the mod to include an altered noshadow list).... But it sure looks like it was just a typo. You did add the bolt.mdl that I pointed out was missing, but you didn't remove (or more correctly, rename) the bolt1.mdl which was there in its place, so now both bolt.mdl and bolt1.mdl are there... which is just building upon the original mistake instead of fully correcting it.

It looks like Quakespasm copied your early noshadow list (as stated here: http://quakespasm.sourceforge.net/Quakespasm.html#ss6.5 ) and never fixed the error (they don't have their own Gunter to point these things out to them!), as you can see in its code (i.e., bolt1.mdl instead of bolt.mdl): https://sourceforge.net/p/quakespasm/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/quakespasm/Quake/gl_rmain.c



Hardware Gamma: Ok, then it is still using Shader Gama when it says Shader Gamma. The problem is that switching to any non 1024x600 fullscreen resolution resets my desktop hardware gamma setting just as if I were using the Hardware Gamma setting in Quake. i.e., normally my desktop gamma setting is adjusted up a bit, and that applies to Quake as well, so I don't have to adjust Gamma in Quake up by a lot. Using Shader Gamma in Quake in a window or fullscreen at 1024x600 doesn't alter my desktop gamma at all. Using the the Hardware Gamma setting in Quake, either in a window or in fullscreen, resets my desktop gamma, meaning I have to ramp up the gamma in Quake to make it brighter, then I have to reset my desktop gamma when I quit Quake.... The same gamma reset happens when using Shader Gamma, but only for full-screen resolutions other than 1024x600 (native).


And just a note: you don't have to connect to an online server to test the CTRL/ALT buttons in console; just do New Multiplayer Game locally.

Hey, would it at all be possible to allow mouse selection of text in the console for CTRL+C (copy text)?


Oh, and there's little chance of me spilling coffee on my netbook... I don't drink coffee ;)
Who would want to deal with a caffeinated Gunter?? 
 
And on the Second Day, Gunter posted his long list of feedback over here: http://www.fvfonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3811 
 
FitzQuake's no-shadow list was indeed hard-coded into the engine.

Compare it with the tempent parsing code and it seems evident that progs/bolt1.mdl was a typo/bug; the tempent code (correctly) has progs/bolt.mdl but does not have progs/bolt1.mdl; meantime the no-shadow list doesn't have progs/bolt.mdl; I don't think we need to debate this one. 
Fork Of MarkV 
Hi,
first of all I'd like to say a big thank you for this excellent source port. I love playing the WinQuake version.

A few months ago I made the following changes to the old 1036:
* Fixed a bug in single player where a saved game wasn't properly reloaded after death (you fixed this too in 1050)
* Changed all the defaults to make WinQuake look and feel exactly like the original
* Hid all the customization menus but without removing the variables, so if a mod needs them, it will work
* Limited the maximum resolution to 1280x1024

Ever since I made this, I've been following your changes and keeping my little fork updated, but I haven't uploaded it anywhere yet.
Since Mark V isn't on github or a similar site, I didn't want to just upload it and make it look like I'm the author so I wanted to ask if you're planning on uploading Mark V on github or a similar site, so I can fork the project and give you the credit that you deserve. 
 
Heyyy, I like the idea of having a fork that "Changed all the defaults to make [Quake] look and feel exactly like the original"... to a certain extent; I mean, I see no need to remove menus that allow for easy customization, and if a user wants a higher resolution, there's no need to prevent them from selecting it.

I have no problem with making all kinds of changes (I enjoy tweaking and playing with settings... which is why I break so many things in bugtesting!), but the default Quake look and feel should always be the starting point (which was the vast content of the post I just made on my forum -- all the actual reasons why I would like many settings to be reverted to the Quake Default, as they produce unwanted behaviors for me).

In any case, no disrespect to Baker, who is the true mastermind behind Mark V, but I (and others) would absolutely prefer use a fork which addressed all the issue I have with altering Quake defaults. AND maybe dosse91 would remove the intentional blocking of OGG support! :D

Don't worry, I'd still bugtest here ;)


Though I might run into issues with dosse91's fork trying to make everything like WinQuake whereas I prefer hardware-rendered Quake.... 
@doSSE91 
MAKE YOUR OWN github repo call it sporkV or something then not its a test fork of markV with a link to Baker's website. or make your github private and only show it off to baker? or no just compare notes. 
@dosse91 
Ah, I don't care about credit -- I don't even have "Baker" on the Mark V page nor in a text file with the executables (or on most other things like the QuakeDroid page) because I don't care.

Everyone's work is a fork of Carmack's anyway, isn't it? /end joke

My only interest is conveniently being able to play any Quake mod in the context that was meant in a resolution independent and preferences independent way and be able to use as close to anywhere as possible (all major desktop platforms, all major mobile platforms) -- with the start demos working nice and properly which no other engine has ever taken the effort to do it because it is tedious and unrewarding (stuff like bizarre behavior of the start demos if the menu is opened when the start demo switches, etc. etc. It's like 25 things. Hence almost all engines hide the start demos because the problems are so hard to address.)

Settings is no win. Some people think Quake is GLQuake or ProQuake (like gunter) and some people think Quake is WinQuake/DOS and others prefer say the FitzQuake feel or (insert another engine).

There is no winning with settings, only trying to make the major ones available -- even with things like mouselook, always run, animation smoothing, stair smoothing.

I tried to make it easy to compile so someone wanting to compile themselves would be able to do that. 
<--- That Pitfall Guy Is Me Successfully Escaping ... 
Warm weather now. I'll check the thread sporadically in read-only mode, unless someone finds an Earth-shattering mistake or such.

Main difference from last year, is I think I get to vanish with no annoying bugs like last year tool_inspector being broke.

/Freedom! 
I Think I Heard A Whoosh 
 
And There He Goes 
See you again for v2.0, mate! You deserve a break after this update marathon, I guess. We can all play AD in the meantime. With Mark V, ofc. :P 
 
Well, dosse91, Baker's outta here for now, so it looks like you need to make your fork available for download and create your own thread here on Func so we bugtesters can take a crack at (breaking) your version and provide feedback :D 
 
Two points on Baker's last thoughts as he ran out the door:


"My only interest is conveniently being able to play any Quake mod ... and be able to use as close to anywhere as possible."

Would it not be so much more convenient and compatible to allow OGG support then, for people who have OGG Quake soundtracks (it seems to be a common format for Quake users), and for people who have computers that don't handle MP3 well though Mark V for some reason (like me!)....? Just saying! OGG support would serve both the stated goals there: more convenient, and more compatible.



"Settings is no win. Some people think Quake is ..."

Indeed, which is a good argument for leaving all settings at the Default. Then you are sure to please at least one (rather large) group of people: people who expect Quake to act/look/feel the way it always has (whether that's Win or HW version).... Other people who want to change that can do so, to their own tastes. But having the engine set SOME settings to different defaults (some old, some new, some Fitzquake) has no chance of getting it just right for anyone... except people who don't care.



... hey... how do you people make your quoted text appear grey?? Is it a secret function for registered users?? bbcode obviously doesn't work here.... 
 
Huh, ya know, come to think of it, there are already those options at the bottom of the Preferences page:

Set to Mark V
Set to Fitzquake

Why is there no "Set to Quake Default??" That should revert everything I complain about to the standard Quake Default settings ;)

And that should be the Default settings, heh, and then people could easily apply your Mark V recommended settings if they wanted. 
@Gunter 
Quoting from #1763 for your benefit.

I obviously can't speak for Baker but this wouldn't be just 3 extra characters. It's only 3 characters if you directly replace the existing .mp3 support with .ogg support, but of course you then lose .mp3 support.

Adding multiple file format support would involve enumerating files of multiple extensions, sorting them into lists, making decisions such as which format has priority over others (not so clear-cut - how do you decide between a high bitrate inferior format vs a low bitrate superior format?), and how to handle the inevitable crazy-assed situation where someone has multiple formats in the same folder (some of which may even be multiple versions of the same file in different formats).


Adding this support is not as easy and clean as you think it is.

Replacing the existing MP3 support with a different format - easy and clean.

Adding support for two or more co-existing formats - messy, troublesome, hard decisions to be made.

You say "just saying". Well you've said it; over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and Sweet Baby Jesus Make It Stop.

You want people to listen to you? Return the favour and do some listening back yourself; I don't think that's too much to ask for. 
Been Super Busy 
I haven't been keeping up with Quake recently, good to see so much work still going into MarkV. Can't wait to play some split screen when it happens ;) 
Linux Binary PLEASE 
Any chance for a Linux version of the 1.99 release? And actually have working external music support? Quakespasm Linux has working music I don't see why the Linux binary of MarkV can't have it.

Also what the hell does "Cache_RLU: NULL link" or whatever even mean? I've never had that happen in Quakespasm. 
 
Now, mh, YOU KNOW that the paragraph you quoted from yourself in the past is utter nonsense (why are you trying to make it sound overly-complicated by talking about sorting lists and comparing bitrates and acting as though it's a crazy impossible situation if there are multiple formats in the same folder?).

Do you know how I know that you know it's nonsense? Because I just fired up DirectQ, YOUR QUAKE ENGINE, and guess what? It can play both MP3 and OGG files, and if I have BOTH an MP3 and an OGG file of track04 in the same folder, it simply plays the MP3 instead of getting confused by this "crazy-assed situation" and causing the earth to explode. FTE, on the other hand, supports both formats and gives preference to the OGG in the same situation.

So, YOU'VE done this. It was simple, because apparently you did it without even knowing you did it. It just works automatically, easily, and effortlessly for the user. But now you act like it's some impossible insurmountable obstacle to programming....

Are you retarded or something?

See, I don't listen to tards, because they say retarded things that just aren't true.

Just saying! ;) 
 
Now the continuing report of the weird centerview behavior....

Me and another player on the FvF server experience it working and not working at the same times. I checked the clock and it seemed to be right about 15:30 when it stopped working. On the next map (it starts working again after map change), I watched again to see if it would repeat, and it seemed to stop working again right about 15:30. Then it started working again around 18:00, stopped again sometimes after 20, then stopped again after 21... and stayed that way. At each point I told the other guy and he agreed that it would start/stop working during the same periods it did for me.

I was using Quakedroid with keyboard only, and he's in Linux Mark V using mouse + keyboard.

I tried playing around some more to see if those times would aproduce the bug in single player or local multiplayer, and by restarting a map on the online server and messing with the host_framerate, but I can't really get it to repeat.....

But it's rather odd that centerview (not force_centerview) should be affected by anything the server is doing... at certain times... for multiple connected players... isn't it? We were just standing around in the game not doing anything weird. Pretty sure I don't do anything in FvF that should alter a player's view like that. And as I reported before, after tapping the centerview key, the view will center itself after like 10-30 seconds when the issue occurs.

Weird one. *shrug* 
 
@gunter ... get me a demo and the time within the demo the problem crops up. Use cl_autodemo 1 or have your friend use cl_autodemo 1.

There are dozens of items used in the Quake view drift calculations, some come from the server or the mod (QuakeC).

It could be so many different things like the server/QuakeC specifying "wishangles" or movetype fly/noclip or an onground flag that without live catching it, there is not a reasonable chance of isolating what is occurring.

Since a demo is the capture of all communication from a server, the information within a demo should be enough for examination to see what variable is the source of what you have experienced.

Other: I'll build the Linux in the next 24-72 hours. The "link active" thing should go away. Although I spent some time examining ffmpeg, too many irons were in the fire and I never got around to adding soundtrack support for Linux nor QuakeDroid because there was too much going on. So that'll happen next time (maybe Christmas).

@fifth - Yeah, split screen is going to happen! Haha! Almost happened this time. Next time is a lock. 
 
It's ironic that this may happen when I am playing the least amount of Quake for about 10 years. 
 
Asking Baker for help since he has experience with both the software renderer and with things like his tool_texturepointer. 
 
Did I say adding ogg support was impossible? Don't seem to recall saying that. Yes, I've written it myself in the past, did I deny that? You'd think the fact that I've written it would put me in a position where I could be assumed to know what I'm talking about, but apparently not.

Yes, I know what code that supports multiple formats looks like. I know the kind of things it needs to do. I've written such code, so please don't assume that I'm BSing when I say that the MP3 code in MarkV is nothing like it. This isn't a simple modification, this is an extensive gut-and-rewrite.

Asking for the same thing over and over again when it's already been both patiently and impatiently explained that you're asking for a lot more than you realise is wearing pretty damn thin. 
MP3 Vs OGG 
I don't quite understand what's the big fuss about having to use MP3 versions of the Quake soundtrack. They are not that hard to obtain. "Other ports support OGG" is not a valid reason to insist on this IMHO.

Sure, it's maybe nice if you can use the soundtrack files in different ports if they are in OGG format, but honestly I am only using Mark V by now. As far as I am concerned, I got used to using MP3 files. 
@gunter - Your Rare Heisenbug Demo 
I reviewed your demo and peeked at some internals. Things affecting lookspring ...

1) internal game clocks (seems fine)
2) onground is non-issue
3) Although the problem went away on level change, it could be just a coincidence.
4) The server wasn't stuffcmding anything that interfered.

Can you link me up a copy of your config.cfg and autoexec.cfg so that I can review some other potential things since cvar settings combinations could be involved or divide strangely with floating point. 
@mankrip 
I almost replied your post @ inside3d yesterday about your engine and polygon points.

But I suspect you might not like my opinion of an answer, but here goes ...

Mark V has *ALL* of mh's matrix calculation and manipulation functions. This stuff primarily is not needed for WinQuake since it doesn't use OpenGL, yet even Mark V WinQuake uses these.

I you looked at Mark V texture pointer code, you can see it drawing the polygon and doing that calculations you are seeking would be straightforward.

What stopped me from posting is that since you do the software renderer, you likely don't use OpenGL matrix transformations -- and I felt my answer would be unhelpful (*).

You'd also probably have to add some GLQuake extra fields to some structs to make life easier. So I figured you would hate my answer and didn't post it.

(* because it took me a couple of years of get good at 3D matrix math and if you aren't using it regularly, I doubt you wanted the "hey start learning it and in 6 months .." kind of answer.)

There is Carmack matrix manipulation stuff in WinQuake, but where it differs from the look and feel of OpenGL matrix manipulation it looks Greek to me, mostly because if I didn't need to understand it for a feature, why investigate. I think one of the few times I used Carmack's matrix stuff was for "fov doesn't affect gun" option.

More Concise version: If I were in your shoes, I would add all the glpoly_t to the WinQuake renderer and modify the surface structure and use those to access coordinates. Then use mh matrix functions against those points and things like Mark V project/unproject (which is basically similar to gluProject) But I don't think you'll like that idea.

Plus my thoughts are shaped by my lesser knowledge of the internal workings of the software renderer than yourself, so I don't even know if "what I would do" is optimal. 
 
(* because it took me a couple of years of get good at 3D matrix math and if you aren't using it regularly, I doubt you wanted the "hey start learning it and in 6 months .." kind of answer.)

Yes, that's more or less the point. I don't want to get deep into this kind of 3D math before finishing the stuff I'm working on right now. Plus, what puzzles me the most is not the math, but the fact that it seems that the on-screen vertex data is unreliable.

I you looked at Mark V texture pointer code, you can see it drawing the polygon and doing that calculations you are seeking would be straightforward.

For now I'm going to do it the brute force way and extract the coordinates from the chained spans data, iterating through the whole chain to get the max and min x & y values. I suspect there'll be a lot to rewrite in the engine to get this kind of data in a straightforward way. But I'll take a look at what you suggested, thanks.

By the way, Makaqu has support for .scale on SPR sprites, so you can copy it from there. IIRC it's pretty simple. It also has .scalev, which can be used to scale each axis individually. The only model format I didn't try figuring out how to scale is BSP. 
@mankrip 
extract the coordinates from the chained spans data

The glpoly_t has those and generates them on map load.

BuildSurfaceDisplayList <--- in Mark V and I think the same name in FitzQuake 0.85, which might be the same code as GLQuake (never looked, but seems very likely).

Also see: DrawGLPoly where it shows code drawing iterating through a polygon.

Generates all that glpoly_t stuff. Just on map load.

For any glpoly_t named "p" ... the verts are p->verts[0] (X), verts[1] (Y), verts[2] (Z)

Anyway, the reason I recommend this is that the code for getting the verts is already written in GLQuake.

(Then create a projection matrix and a model view matrix based on current player origin/angles and fov and combined with the viewport width/height you can get convert between real world points and screen points including z near depth 0 and z far depth 1 as much as you like <--- part of answer you will hate obviously, but the nice part is that it works.). 
@mankrip 
Here's a thought for you ... QuakeDroid has tap-fire and the very first QuakeDroid was (WinQuake) before a switched GL to be the main QuakeDroid.

1) Load up Mark V WinQuake.
2) Type vid_touchscreen 1 in the console.
3) Double click on a torch and watch what happens. It is QuakeDroid "tap fire".

Now double click on a wall.

Now think about the fact that in order for that to work, the "tap fire" has to know the targeting distance to get the angle of fire correct!

("Tap fire" has about all the calculations you want, and it does them in WinQuake! No GLQuake at all. It shows you how to do most of the things you need.) 
@Baker Help/support For My 100b Jam Map. 
Hey, I've got a map incoming for the 100bjam. It is currently using many new mdls, some with alpha textures recently supported with the newest Quakespasm release. Notable, these trees here as seen in Quakespam 0.93, Quakespasm currently displays all my models correctly:

https://i.imgur.com/MYhrOkX.jpg

When in MarkV dx9 the transparency doesnot work on 1 skin, also the model itself appears to be transparent with the background bleeding through
https://i.imgur.com/AaNJD6G.jpg

In Mark V the skin is fixed but bleeding from behind the model is visible, as well as a transparent layer that seems to cover the entire model:
https://i.imgur.com/bSNiZLw.jpg

Also, geometry is bleeding through all my models in Mark V even when they don't have transparent skins:
https://i.imgur.com/z4IHTIO.jpg

Currently only QS will run this map correctly. Anything that can be done Baker? 
@redfield (mh) 
OMG! It's beautiful! I knew you were a talented guy but I've never seen anything like that in Quake. I'm not sure I would have ever thought it possible.

1. Do you have r_shadows off?

If r_shadows is off ...

There is an Open GL Mark V 1.99 in the following zip http://quakeone.com/markv/builds/1099_mark_v_windows_extras_revision_3.zip (It's the SDL GL .exe)

I would recommend you check and see if looks ok in OpenGL.

Let me know ... 
Redfield 
Disable fog. 
@Baker 
Running on the newest openGL MarkV fixed all the issues with the models and the display perfectly now.

But there's a new problem. My map uses a func_illusionary for the bottom skybox face, with a minlight func_group beneath it. This is in order to properly light the models. Other methods failed because there is a problem with the current version of ericWs tools. This sky works fine in QS, but the bottom is not showing in this MarkV release now. 
Cont'd 
I guess I didn't notice that the bottom skyface wasn't showing on older MarkV version as well. I mean I could try casting sky on a func_wall (although this makes sky 'shootable') instead as this also worked in QS, but will either of these methods methods display properly in MarkV? 
 
So there is a func_illusionary skybrush at the bottom of the map?

Do you have a sample .bsp that illustrates the issue? Need something to look at. 
@Baker 
Sample map with func_illusionary as bottom sky face, beneath that func group with minlight, beneath that a regular brush. 3 layer Sandwich. Run this in Quakespam and MarkV and you will see MarkV has no support for func_illusionary sky.

Source is included
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/testing/MarkVskytest.zip 
 
Cool! Sky brush entities are rare (so rare I can't name with a map that uses one, and I have lists of maps with uncommon features) I probably forgot to implement it for lack of a test subject. 
 
Yeah, otherwise it seems to run fine in the newest version which is good news. I guess this means v1.999 is on the way?:) 
Trouble With Rubicon Rumble Pack 
Rubicon Rumble Pack, version 1.03. In map telefragged, when you approach the area with the 4 labs (the one with the platforms going up and down in a pool of slime), Mark V closes to desktop with no error.

This is on Windows 10 1803 x64, with all versions of Mark V. 
@gvakarian 
For the area you are talking about, could you type viewpos and give me the numbers.

It looks like this:

Camera: (544 288 50) 0 90 0
Viewpos: (544 288 28) 0 90 0

Rubicon Rumble is a really big map. 
@redfield 
Sky entities addition done. Just need to build.

(I would like to look the issue that gvakarian says occurs with Rubicon Rumble before doing another build, I've looked around some of the maps but I don't know/can't find the area he is referring to ... the maps are gigantic). 
Awesome 
Great stuff Baker. I'm hoping that players who are MarkV users will be able to enjoy my map. Not sure how your gonna find that Rubicon glitch, needle in a haystack. Goodluck 
RRP 
The approach to the 4 labs is in telefragged.bsp at "1134 -319 -8" facing angle "0 0 0". the labs are through the doors at the end of the hall. 
@ericw, @redfield 
Haha! Thank you!

If someone says they have an issue and I can't investigate it, it is annoying as hell!

-----

@redfield - Any chance to get something to test the outstanding issue of screenshot you first posted that had black where transparency would be in the DirectX Mark V. I've done some fence model texture skin tests in DirectX Mark V and it renders just fine.

I'm glad to see alpha masked models get some live use in actual Quake. 
Heisenbug Identified 
It's a tricky one. Baker mentioning floating point divisions put me on the right track of what to look for.

Ok, in FvF, the Cleric and Monk can create health and armor. In Quest (coop) mode, they get XP (frags) for giving that health and armor to their teammates.

A regular health box given to a teammate earns you 0.25 frags... so after you've given 4 health boxes you've earned 1 frag/point/XP.

Quake doesn't have a problem with this for math and display purposes, as it only shows the rounded number in scoreboards and such, and when the map changes, the fraction is dropped completely from the frags value.

BUT! This seems to be the cause of the bug. When ANY player's frag value contains a fractional value, it prevents EVERYONE on the server from using centerview! Well, I mean, it usually works on a delay of like 20 seconds.... But what's up with that? Why should someone else with a fractional frag value prevent everyone's centerview from working correctly? Why would frags even be involved in centerview?

Upon tossing that 4th health box to a wounded teammate (so my frag value no longer contains a decimal value), my view will then auto-center right away (having previously pressed the centerview key).


Reproduced in Mark V, QuakeDroid, ProQuake, and Qrack... so... if you fix this bug, you'll be breaking new ground ;) 
@gunter - Great! 
Awesome gunter! Glad to see you solved the mystery.

I turned over every rock and was striking out. 
@NightFright 
@NightFright

For me the big deal is that Mark V has a really hard time loading MP3 files on my WinXP netbook. I've heard another person say something similar.

When loading a decent-quality MP3 track inside Mark V, the entire game literally freezes up for over 20 seconds while a glitched menu sound (if I just activated external music in the menu) replays over and over until it unfreezes, and then the music starts playing.... I manged to find some re-encoding settings that reduced the quality of the MP3 a lot and got that freeze delay down to 5 seconds....

However, when I use OGG files (by renaming things or hacking Mark V with a hex editor to replace "MP3" with "OGG") then the song loads almost instantly, with only a 1 second delay or less.

So yeah, it's a real issue for me, and not just some weird irrational preference for certain formats! ;) 
 
Add: I'm not sure, but since you can reliably identified and recreated the circumstances in multiple engines, it gives me something to think about. 
 
Gunter, I just want to point out that it is impossible to play ogg on Android or an iPhone (without unacceptably chewing up metric shit tons of CPU -- hence the frames per second would be absolute trash --- because it is an obscure format and hence does not have hardware decoding in the processor) while because mp3 uses hardly any cpu at all because it has hardware decoding built into every phone/PC/device on the planet.

Plus the Mac version of Mark V plays mp3 via Apple API via hardware decoding using nearly 0% cpu. ogg being an obscure format that no companies ever use, there is no Apple API for that.

I care that your Quake works right, but you already found a solution that works for your computer issue with mp3 by cheating around with something that happens to work on Windows.

So your personal issue is solved.

My issue is I want things to work the same on all 5 platforms that Mark V supports.

Why the hell would I want to support an obscure music format that can never work on the 2 mobile platforms that I like with Mark V.

Why would I also want to recode the Mac version to support a shittier music format that uses more CPU? Oh -- and since I couldn't use Apple API I would have to rewrite the music code.

And the Quake .mp3 sound tracks are available everywhere, like on the Steam page. Case in point, this guy is links to it. Also Travail's soundtrack is mp3.

Also why the hell support more than 1 music format?

Shall we figure out new graphics formats like .bmp or hey let's do .gif!

The only engine that can't play mp3 is DarkPlaces, and to be blunt --- DarkPlaces is an extremely shitty engine for playing Quake because it made itself so damn incompatible with a lot of Quake mods.

I'm just communicating my point of view.

I don't care if people discuss it or what not, discussion is always a great thing -- environments where you don't find discussion or arguing are sterile and mindless. You might consider listening to my point of view, though --- I have one too! Haha 
 
mh, yeah, I was being overly-dramatic because you were doing the same. But you've remained clam and respectful in your recent post, so I will do the same (funny how that works).

Sure, I would normally take your word for it, in areas of engine programming, but not when you are making statements that are clearly exaggerated and misleading.

Of course, in your original post on the matter ( #1757 ) you pointed out that Mark V already supports OGG through DirectShow, which you knew because you were the original author of that code, but Mark V is hard-coded to only look for MP3, and supporting OGG should just be a matter of adding support for other extensions, but, you said, "I can't say what kind of work would be involved in this change."

After that tip, irlyap and I found we could hack Mark V to allow OGG files, and PRITCHARD made the amusing comment: "It makes you wonder what ogg did to Baker - murdered/kidnapped family I guess - in the past to make him think 'I have this perfectly good DirectShow support in my engine. I should ruin it and only use it for mp3 format music to ensure that my users have to work harder than with other engines!' "

irlyap made the comment that it would be like "adding 3 characters" which is when you pointed out it would not be THAT simple, which I'm sure is true, but the paragraph of reasons you gave (which you recently re-quoted) is the problem.

I'll just take one part of it as the crux (though I believe the entire quote is trying to make it sound more complicated than it actually is):

"making decisions such as which format has priority over others (not so clear-cut - how do you decide between a high bitrate inferior format vs a low bitrate superior format?)"

So, since you have coded multiple-file-format support before in DirectQ, did you actually DO that comparing of bitrates?

I already know the answer: No, of course you didn't. Comparing bitrates of various file formats would be a completely ridiculous thing to do. There are several Quake engines that support multiple formats, and I bet not a single one of them would dream of doing something like that. The only decision you have to make as to what takes priority is, "do I want MP3 or OGG to have priority?" and the answer to that is already quite obvious for Baker! Heck, I'm thinking that decision would happen automatically if the coder didn't want to specify a specific order -- the engine would just play the first format it came across according to it's internal list of formats to look for....

In #1764 irlyap pointed out that OGG was already " listed in Mark V's file extension look up table" and he guessed that there must be some code that explicitly ignores of forbids it. Then just a couple posts after that, both he and I pointed out that you don't need to do any of that overly-complicated stuff -- just add support for OGG with preference for MP3, and that's it. Sure, that's likely more than adding 3 characters, but I know it's nowhere near as complicated as the quote you brought back up, after we had previously "patiently explained" that none of that was necessary....

Now, maybe your original intent wasn't to make it sound overly-complicated and you were just considering options.... You did also say in that same old post, "I absolutely do think that people should make the effort to do all this, of course. But it would need some guidance as to what the end-user expected behaviour is. ... it would be nice to see players striking up a discussion among themselves about how they'd like to see these kind of decisions work out."

The expected behavior is just as I said (and maybe irlyap explained a bit more thoroughly in #1768 though he spoke of 3 example formats when all you need are 2). Allow support for MP3 and OGG in that order of preference. Or, stated more simply: just allow the engine to look for OGG files if it doesn't find MP3 files! How hard could that be?

Baker's objection to OGG has never been that it would be difficult -- he just wants Mark V to be The Engine of the Future, and OGG doesn't exist in his Perfect Future! (or something like that!).


Now, before there are any slippery-slope arguments like "Where do you stop? If you add one format, you have to add hundreds more..." -- Nope, all anyone is seriously asking for is a second format, OGG. So you have a mere two formats, and that's all you need. Nobody uses any other formats for Quake music (not that I've heard of -- someone said something about Opus and QS? Is that really a thing? What the hell's an Opus?? Isn't that the penguin from a comic strip??). 
 
I explained my point of view. I want the engine to work the same on all 5 platforms.

Tomorrow, you might get a new computer and you will no longer care about any of this. 
@Baker 
Ok, I'll address your points.

I accept that Android won't play OGG. No problems with that. But I don't see that as a good reason to say, "Since mobile platforms don't support OGG then I also want to prevent the desktop versions from using OGG when they otherwise could."

You say you want things to work the same on all 5 platforms, but that's never going to be quite true. For example, my WinXP netbook does not have a touch screen, and my Android device doesn't have a mouse.... Yet there are touchscreen and mouse things coded into the engine.... So what happens if I enable touchscreen or mouse on a device which doesn't support touchscreen or mouse? Nothing. Nothing happens. And that's fine. That's how it should be.

So if you allow Mark V to simply look for OGG files if it doesn't find MP3 files (simplest way of stating it), what would happen on an Android device, even if I had OGG files installed? Nothing? Would just nothing happen because Android won't play OGG files? So it would be no different whatsoever from now? That's what should happen: Nothing.

So there would be no harm done if a WinXP computer, which can easily play OGG through DirectShow, were allowed to do so, but a Mac or Android would simply do Nothing because it can't play OGG. For the user's benefit it would just be as simple as stating, "Mark V supports MP3 as the primary format, with OGG as an alternate format if you have a Windows computer with DirectShow which is capable of playing OGG" (and face it, Windows users are likely the majority, so it's not a trivial number of users we're talking about).

"Why support two formats?" For convenience of the users. I'm not the only person who has asked for OGG support in the past -- I only started asking when I found OGG magically fixed my freezing problem with MP3s (and I suspect Dutch had the same problem). Yeah, I can hack a workaround, but then I have to offer my hacks to other users who may prefer OGG for various reasons, and I find that "solution" to be ... ugly.

Nobody is asking for more graphic formats, and nobody is asking for a multitude of music formats. But yeah, apparently OGG was a fairly common format for the Quake soundtrack... otherwise there wouldn't have been multiple people asking for it.

And what would be the harm if just *Nothing* happened on platforms that don't support OGG? While at the same time allowing OGG to be used on supported platforms by simply allowing Mark V to check for an OGG file IF it doesn't find an MP3?

The benefit is that it helps users who either have MP3 problems in Mark V (like me), or users who already have the soundtrack in OGG format installed....

Pros: Benefits/is more convenient for some users.
Cons: None?

Is that accurate?

I mean, this isn't a case where you have to specifically tell android to NOT play OGG because it will be slow and crappy, is it?
Isn't it the case where Android (or Mac, or whatever) will simply do Nothing if an OGG is present? Because that's exactly what Mark V does now when an OGG is present! 
 
"Tomorrow, you might get a new computer and you will no longer care about any of this."

You keeeeep wishing that, don't you? XD



(And I still don't know how to make quoted text appear grey.... How do people do that?) 
 
And then I found THE FAQ thread.... Which told me the codes, which are very similar to BBCode but not exactly the same.... 
@Baker 
Baker, download this model and drop it into a map using Quoth custom_mapobject or AD misc_model and set the skins to 0 and 1.

I tested with an isolated clean install of Quake and MarkV Dx9 and your newest build. Only the new build displays these models correctly.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/models/redfield_model.zip

Thing was a bitch to make, so its nice that newest builds of all the engines (DP untested as yet) can display it properly. 
@redfield - Masked Models Will Be Ok In DX9 
I think everything is going to work ok for DX9 with the masked models.

screenshot: red tree masked model now renders leafy style in DX9

I'm not actually modify the DX9 rendering, but in this case was able to determine what the DX9 hated and do it a bit differently to get it pretty close to what it should look like. 
 
Just curious, what was different between the two mdl's that caused one to work and the other not? 
Sweet 
This is great Baker, thnx.

Yeah would be interesting to know. Its the same model only skin difference. 
The Red Tree Skin 
The red skin has fullbright pixels in it.

If you do "imagedump" and look at the fullbright skin generated ...

http://quakeone.com/markv/media/autumntree_fullbright_pixels.png

You can see dark red that would technically show up in pitch black with no lightning.

(Really the texture probably shouldn't -- like it might have glow in the dark pixels to the extent that dark red is , but it happens in map textures all the time too, haha.).

So it was using a combination of OpenGL capabilities at the same time that doesn't normally happen in Quake with alias models (.mdl), so the Direct3D wrapper wasn't prepared for that situation or at least never tested in that situation.

/Short version: Was a DirectX wrapper thing 
Sh*t 
I gotta fix this POS tree asap. I'm gonna kill this fu*king thing! 
 
I had the palette set to no brights, goddmanit! 
Lol 
This should be a meme or something 
 
I'm drafting court papers against mtPaint right now. No brights was loaded in the palette. FRAUD. 
Everyone Take A Deep Breath... 
Ok, the tree has been DEALT with. The evil brights are gone and the tree now displays in Dx9 Mark V as intended:

Directx9 Alice Quake Map
https://i.imgur.com/mnSnXW1.jpg

There is also a womans shoe model in an bubble with alpha applied and it seems to display as well. There is still a visible transparent layer across the models that does appear in the 1.99 release however.

Thank you @Baker and everyone.
I'm going to celebrate now with the mixing of chocolate and milk... 
Edit 
^Does NOT appear in 1.99 I should say^ 
 
Just say "there is small rendering glitch in Mark V DX9 in one area and I'm told that it will be looked into and fixed in the engine if it can be".

If I can fix it, it'll get addressed. I wouldn't stop the show because of that. 
Mark V - Version 1.99 - Revision 4 (Final) 
http://quakeone.com/markv

Download: Windows - DirectX | WinQuake
Download: Linux GL | Linux WinQuake

Changes:

* Sky entity support (redfield)
* Alpha masked models w/fullbrights fixed in DX9 (redfield)
* Ctrl/Shift bind firing/console if on server (gunter)
* Linux "Cache LRU link_active" fix (Dr. Dumb*uck)

Also available are a couple of alternative/requested builds: extra builds 
 
Just related a note, (as I've reported before) my func_illusionary guy with his fullbright pixels still isn't transparent unless I set gl_fullbrights 0. The same goes for weapon models except the axe when I have a ring (unless custom weapon textures are used, which contain no fullbright pixels). 
 
Now, a fun story!

Oh my gosh.... I just went on a very frustrating adventure to try and make one point... and ended up with several points to make.

So to do this, I decided to try out Mark V's "install" command for map pack from Quaddicted. I've never messed with this feature before.

I tried "install qump" then I went to Single Player, New Game (because Mark V's "map guessing" feature is supposed to make that work)... but... it didn't start Qump.

So I looked at how it was installed, and I see that everything was put directly into the id1 folder....

So I checked the Qump readme, which explained that everything should be installed to a Qump folder.... But I scanned down and saw that the first map was titled "Beginning" (by PRITCHARD!), so I tried "changelevel beginning" -- map not found.

So I looked in the id1/maps folder and saw all the maps were actually named qump_[something], but there was no qump_beginning.... but I saw a "start.bsp" which had been installed.... Ok, that must be it, BUT because of unpacked files not taking preference, doing "changelevel start" will not go to that map!

Ok, so let's start over. I do "uninstall qump" ... NOPE! Mark V tells me the qump folder does not exist.... But.. you just INSTALLED it that way! argh!!!

Ok, I MANUALLY delete all the files that Mark V installed, using the list it told me in console. Handy.

And I notice that it overwrote my id1 start.lit file with qump's start.lit file.... *grumble* So I'll have to replace that with the correct lit file later.

Now, I remember people saying something about specifying a gamedir to install things to with the "install" command, but the HELP info for "install" doesn't tell me how to do that....

Soo.... I just guessed it would be something like "install qump qump".... buuuut that doesn't work, and produces an error message that I find unhelpful:


Need the game to install or the entire URL with
the http:// in it
Example: install travail or install [http://URL]

The version of libcurl used does not support
https:// at this time


So I give up on that and come to the conclusion that I dislike the install feature and will just install everything manually from now on!


I noticed when removing files that the qump.zip file has been downloaded to a id1\_library folder, so I just unzip that and it already contains the Qump folder, making it very simple to install correctly.


Next I switch to the qump game dir and start a New Single Player game, and I'm in the qump start map (because it's correctly named start.bsp, making map guessing completely unnecessary).

So am I happy now? Nope! I finally got to the (only) issue which I started out wanting to illustrate: Mark V does not play the background music for this single-player release from Quaddicted because it's in OGG format!! XD

So I started up DirectQ (mh's engine!) since I knew it supports both MP3 and OGG (with preference for MP3) and did "game qump," and to my surprise it automatically tried to exec an autoexec.cfg file in the qump gamedir!! Which is now the third issue I have previously argued for in Mark V, which mh has strongly argued against, which I have later found to already be incorporated into his own quake engine!


So let me just go through this checklist:

[continued in next post, because I write more than 5000 characters!] 
 
[continied]

So let me just go through this checklist:

Mark V:

1. Failed at correctly installing with the "install" command (and overwrote one of my lit files), and I couldn't find in-game help info to tell me how to do it correctly. So I had to install manually by just extracting the zip file, as usual.

2. The "map guessing" feature failed to help whatsoever, because in the first situation the start.bsp was installed to the id1 folder, and Mark V gives preference to the pak files (yeah, that's the Quake default, but it shouldn't be, because if someone has copied new files, like this new start.bsp, that should obviously take priority -- I guess that's issue 2.5). Then, once I installed qump correctly, the "map guessing" feature was pointless because the map pack correctly has its own start.bsp... and even if it didnt, I could have used the Levels menu to select a map.

3. Mark V does not play the background track because it's in OGG format, even though (on my system) Mark V can easily play OGG -- it's just hard-coded to only see MP3 files.

4. If I had set up my own cfg files in the Qump directory with any special configurations I want for Qump, Mark V would not run those for me when I switch to the Qump game folder....



Compare this to DirectQ, which is old and no longer being developed:


1. No difference in the first step -- I have to install the qump folder mahually. But since I know I have to do this, I wouldn't have to go through that annoying experience I had trying to use Mark V's install command!

2.5 Even if I had installed incorrectly into the id1 folder, DirectQ would have handled it correctly because it gives preference to unpacked files!

3. DirectQ automatically plays the background music because it hasn't been hard-coded to ignore OGG files.

4. DirectQ automatically runs the autoexec.cfg file in the qump folder when I switch to that gamedir (just the autoexec, not quake.rc), so any settings I want to use for qump will be automatically applied, as they should be.


Now, I'm not actually considering switching to DirectQ, but damn, it did EVERYTHING better in this example!! And each of these issues are things I have strongly argued for in Mark V. And ironically, every one of these things are things that mh has argued with me about, taking the opposite position! Well, not specifically on the "map guessing" feature -- I don't think he's said anything about that, but DirectQ also has a map selecting menu like Mark V does (which is the most correct option for starting custom maps).

mh may suggest that he made mistakes by including those features in DirectQ (he's done that before: #1640 ), but I'm serious here: mh, don't sell yourself short -- these features I've just encountered were great additions to DirectQ, because they "just work" and make things easier for the user without getting in the way or causing problems.




Now, back to the only point I was trying to make when I began this ordeal: some single-player map packs at Quadiccted contain the soundtracks in OGG format (as that was a pretty commonly-used soundtrack format for Quake engines), and Mark V, even though it could easily play them (though not on every platform, I understand), will not do so because you basically won't allow it to look for OGG files.... So... Mark V is (intentionally, in this case) not compatible with maps packs like the following, which contain OGG soundtracks, ranging from 1, 4, up to 11 songs:


https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/rotcs.html
https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/quck_demo.html
https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/func_mapjam9_2.html


These are just the ones I found when specifically looking.... Are there more? I would expect so.

You've said compatibility with single-player releases from Quaddicted if one of the main goals of Mark V, so why deny compatibility to the platforms (like Windows) which are easily capable of playing OGG if you would simply allow it to do so?


And oh yeah, all those other issues which I have argued for in the past, which just happened to come up when I was testing this example:

- No "map guessing" -- it causes me problems in addition to not working or not being needed.

- Unpacked file preference -- if a user installs unpacked files, those are obviously what he wants to use rather than the defaults stored in a pak.

- Exec autoexec.cfg when changing game dir -- if a user has an autoexec in a game dir, he obviously wants it to auto... exec it for that game.


Well, that was fun! XD 
 
Are you sure you are using the most recent version of Mark V? 
 
There's no way current Mark V would install/unpack qump to anything except its own folder.

Johnny Law and I used qump as one of the test subjects for getting the install unpack perfected. 
 
Ah, you're right about that; I have a separate test folder and didn't copy the today's newest Mark V there before testing. I was using 1.98.

I'm testing again with 1.99 annnd... it installed correctly to a qump folder.



Johnny, since you are familliar with a lot of the map packs, do you know of any others besides the 4 I mentioned that come with OGG soundtracks? 
 
Quick comment -- I wanted to look at qump's skyboxes on the original start map. Of course, qump includes its own start.bsp, meaning it overrides the usual start.bsp (as it should).

Then I went to the Levels menu and scrolled down past Qump's "Start - Between Worlds" map, all the way to the bottom section for "Original Quake Levels," hoping Mark V would know to use the start.bsp located in the pack file if I selected it from the "Original Levels" list... but... it doesn't, and qump's start.bsp still runs.

How about forcing it to use the original levels from the pak file if they are specifically selected from that section of the Levels menu? Is that possible? 
 
Thinks: I wonder if this same topic "over and over and over and over spam" reaches the point where moderator assistance becomes necessary? I sure hope not. 
 
I wonder if moderators will start taking action on all the passive-aggressive posts on this site? I sure hope not, even though a lot of people around here are [edited by moderator] 
#2195 
Good catch.

What you want is possible as long as the unpacked maps are in a different gamedir (qump/maps) while the original Quake packs remains in id1.

Start the pack with -game qump, and type map ../../id1/maps/start in the console.

When running mods, it would be wise for the maps menu to add this relative path to the original maps' names. 
[edited By Moderator] No Offence 
i don't get that fancy shit, like automatically extraction to that given folder, the peeps are too lazy nowadays

just download the hotdamned archive, and extract it according the readme file 
Manually* 
 
 
About the "OGG drains too much battery" issue, that can be perfectly worked around by making the engine transcode the OGG files to MP3 and saving the resulting MP3 files to the storage flash/disk drive during engine bootup. This way, when the game wants to play music the MP3 files will be there.

Optionally, the OGG files could be automatically deleted after the MP3 files are saved, to conserve storage space. I'd leave such an option turned off by default, though. 
@spy 
It's true. Few people will use the install command.

It's a stepping stone to full blown built-in "Quake Injector".

At this point is only needs a nice user interface inside the engine.

I want it to be very sophisticated like the Quake Injector, but I also want it to look nice and Quakey in the engine.

Maybe next "development season" I'll talk with Johnny Law and get his thoughts.

I would also kind like of like to enhance the frogbot support to offer some way of setting up the frogbots nice and easy in the engine. (Maybe "development season".)

/Next time things 
<--- There He Goes! 
Ended up doing a final revision for redfield especially because the map uses alpha masked models (I like alpha masked models and want them to be used in Quake).

I'll be back sometime before Christmas and do split screen for sure and I'll probably check the thread every few weeks in read-only mode.

/Back around Christmas, I imagine. 
Baker 
I would also kind like of like to enhance the frogbot support to offer some way of setting up the frogbots nice and easy in the engine. (Maybe "development season".)

Wow, sounds nice! 
There He Goes 
Or so he said last time. We'll see.... 
 
@mankrip, nice, that would be a really clever way to "support" OGGs on systems such as Android that can't play OGG natively. Though I'm not sure how much of a delay might occur the first time the transcoding occurred. And it wouldn't help in my situation, as I would be right back where I started, with MP3. But still, that would be a clever workaround to allow maximum compatibility for soundtracks on all platforms. 
@Baker 
I've got a pretty thick skin so I can handle being called a "dumbf*ck." But I have never run Quake on Linux and have not tested Mark V on anything but Win7.

As far as the install command. I plan on covering that in the upcoming Mark V video. I love that feature and anything that will make it easier for people to play my maps is welcome. It's not laziness IMO. There are too many alternatives for people's attention. 
 
Mistaken identity. There's actually an FvF player called Dr.DUMBFUCK who I told to come here and report his Linux issue, heh. #2137

But I guess you could be Dr. Dumptruck! 
 
it wouldn't help in my situation, as I would be right back where I started, with MP3.

Then I don't see what's the problem. I don't pay attention to most posts. 
 
Shortest version: on my WinXP netbook, loading an MP3 causes Mark V to completely freeze up for up to 20 seconds, but an OGG file of the same track loads in 1 second or less. 
 
Then the MP3 playback needs fixing. 
@Gunter 
I've been following the thread and didn't notice that name. LOL 
Mark V And Xinput 
Baker, here's a note for your next session. :-)

Sometimes I play Quake through Steam in-home streaming. My controller in that case is a Steam controller that presents as an Xinput joystick + buttons. This works with Quakespasm, but not with the latest Mark V (even with the -joystick option specified).

The console says:

joystick not found — invalid joystick capabilities (6)

Reading back through some previous posts I can’t quite tell if I should have expected this to work or not. So, FYI. 
Cool Stuff 
Thanks for putting out that new release Baker. You are da boss. My map should be out with the release of the upcoming mapjam. 
#2213 
Yeah, I still have issues too. I still have to physically unplug my other controller (whether set to dinput or xinput) just to get Mark V to recognise my XBone controller. I, too, was unclear if these issues were addressed or deferred... I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree so it's nice to see I'm not the only one a little confused here. :) 
[edited By Moderator] Not Sure If This A Bug, But 
Let's say i'm running a background streaming video in my browser

i run MV, and in that case, the fps are locking at 60

i terminate the streaming video, the fps are upping to their max

i'm still cannot figure this shite 
Why Is Everyone Saying Android Doesn't Natively Support Vorbis? 
I'm fairly certain that Android has supported Vorbis since 2008, so why is everyone saying that Android doesn't support it natively? What's the big issue with Vorbis support anyways?

https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html

I also find it strange that people say that Vorbis is not used in the game industry at all and that it's 'obscure,' yet I can name 5 games off the top of my head that use Vorbis? 
 
I don't recall the claim being that Android doesn't supports oggs. The point is that hardware decoding of mp3 is ubiquitous, oggs must be software-decoded and that make a very appreciable difference to both performance and battery life. "Everything is software" is cutesy in the desktop space but it cuts no ice in mobile. 
 
Use Ctrl + F and search for OGG and you'll eventually find claims that Android doesn't support Vorbis.

And what exactly does Mark V have to do with mobile though? I still see no reason to purposely disable Vorbis support for the desktop if Mark V is used on mobile devices, especially when some people have issues with Mark V loading MP3s. 
#2221 
About that: I still would like get an answer on mp3 playback in the Quakedroid channel. Just look at my most recent post over there. 
 
When I was mentioning that Android wouldn't play OGG, I was only mistakenly repeating what Baker seemed to say in #2169 where he used the word "impossible." But then I found that Android CAN natively play OGG, and I posted about it over in the QuakeDroid thread.
I read something online saying that ringtones in MP3 format do not loop in Android, but ringtones in OGG format do loop (if a certain flag is set in the file), so I assume that's why Google uses OGG format ringtones for apps like Hangouts (and other built-in alarms and ringtones you will find in Android).



brassbite, I don't think music support has been added to QuakeDroid yet. Like you, I could not get an MP3 to play in the game. 
Well Thats A Bummer 
Why are we even discussing adding ogg support when the fucking game can't even play any music at this point? 
 
QuakeDroid played the OST just fine for me... 
 
So... i'm trying to compile the last version of markV
(this one http://quakeone.com/markv/builds/mark_v_1099_revision_4_source.rar )

and i'm getting the following error:
fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'windows.h': No such file or directory

what am i doing wrong? :/ 
 
QuakeDroid played the OST just fine for me...

Really??

Well, then I don't know what the deal is. I (and brassbite) can't seem to get the MP3s to play in QuakeDroid. We need word from Baker about this.

(And I think we're getting some cross-posting confusion between QuakeDroid and Mark V.) 
JFC Baker Has Repeatedly Said Ogg Wont Be Supported 
Stop banging on about it for gods sake. 
^^^^^IAWTP 
 
 
Gunter's mp3 problem will be solved in the Christmas update (this isn't new, I eventually gave up trying to communicate this to gunter).

Spike maybe a year ago told me about something neat he uses in FTE that will work even on Gunter's old WinXP computer just fine.

I'll add a cvar mp3_decode_fte and have it be a third click option in "cd/mp3 music on|off".

Gunter will end up being very happy and pleased.

@brassbite - I answered your question in the QuakeDroid thread (so anyone else looking for the answer can find it more easily).

@dumptruck - You wouldn't let me get the Trinity or the other 2 artifacts. And made me wait 10 seconds for the hammer. ;-)

@johnny - Yeah, just XBox controllers support. Microsoft controllers are actually backwards compatible to Windows 98 (!!) If you are super intent on using a Steam controller, find the release post and use the "alternate" SDL2 build! Your Steam controller *should* work with that. DirectX Mark V is not SDL2, so doesn't have the rich and deep controller support that they put into SDL2 (unless I steal it and graft it in, which eventually I will probably do in the future ... SDL2 is a very nice and freedom granting license .. a good reason to support SDL2)

@hipnotic - Yeah, it uses the first controller it finds. But in the Christmas version I'll add a way to set it to use "controller #2".

@tribal - I compile with Visual Studio C++ Express 2008 get it plus Service Pack 1. With that version, you open Mark V .vcproj and click "Build" --> BANG! It compiles.

So Tribal, I hope you can get it to compile. With the same Visual Studio, should be easy enough. There is no such thing as "current Visual Studio" because now they don't really do "versions" so I imagine they break things every 6 months or so because Microsoft is really good at that now.

/Resuming sustained months long inactivity ... 
@Baker 
@dumptruck - You wouldn't let me get the Trinity or the other 2 artifacts. And made me wait 10 seconds for the hammer. ;-)

I'm guessing you were probably messing around in the menus before starting the map. The sound files seemed to get out of sync with the triggers when I did that. Disconnect, set your settings and then reload. I tested the map in Mark V extensively and prefer it to QS. :) Should be a solid experience. 
I Wood've Bear With Baker 
a lotsa bears

beers

20/30 buttles 
Hot Durmit 
 
@Barker 
Thank you for the links, but i couldn't install VS C++ 2008 :P

I download other versions of the same program and none of them install... i searched on google and it seems there's something worng with my framework NET 3.5 or something like that... i'll try to fix it on the weekend :/

Thanks again =D

And i agree with dumptrunk, i prefer MarkV to Quakespasm... i like the HUD that doesn't cover the weapon, the sound and music are better, the colors have more saturation, it seems to me that the explosions have more particles, i don't know, but the classic explosions looks more powerfull in MarkV) and the special effects like the shambler's lightning, tarbaby's explosion and the fact that you let me decide which special effect i want turn on or off is awesome =D

Thank you one more time XD 
 
Hi, it' me again =D

I think i found a bug :P

The tarbaby/spawn explosions doesn't change when you set to 0 or 1... it's the old/same explosion :(

i miss that pretty purple circular explosion from QMB 
Is WAV Playback Supported For Music? 
Just wondering. 
Wav Is Supported In Quakespasm 
...but can't confirm if it works in Mark V here at work. I wouldn't be surprised because uncompressed formats are generally easier to support and it's not OGG. (LOL) 
 
Spike has stated that .wav soundtracks is a bad idea.

Take an 4MB mp3 file and convert it to wav and watch it become 75 MB to 95 MB to 120 MB (it's kind of shocking -- you should try it and see for yourself.)

Spike said that the load times, the storage space, disk access time, memory usage make .wav "taxing" and undesirable for music play.

Anyway, that's what Spike said once upon a time when such a topic came up. 
Baker 
That last post re: OGG was not a dig. I was LOLing at someone else. 
 
Gunter is very helpful and often able to make interesting observations that most people wouldn't notice. He plays co-operative all the time, knows QuakeC in a way comparable to Preach. Gunter isn't a bad guy, just passionate.

I think everyone occasionally gets passionate about something. Sleepwalker once had a guy named Dequer in the TrenchBroom thread who was "very passionate" about certain topics.

I think it is cool there are people still passionate about Quake.

Fun fact: Gunter once wrote a QuakeC rollercoaster ride. I kid you not! 
Rollercoaster? 
Just like this thread!!!!

That's a amazing. I do think Gunter's passion for Mark V has made it better. There's no one who is as vocal or who tests it more than he! GG Gunter. 
 
WAV memory usage is smaller than most compressed formats if it's streamed from the drive instead of being fully loaded. But the other negative aspects still apply. 
 
Gunter made a whole playground entirely in QuakeC where you collected "Quaders" to use the games and rides, which included said rollercoaster, a trampoline, and something else. The arcade games were tetris and pac man all done using Quake's special characters font. Along with little things you can interact with like sticking your hand down an ogres pants for a quader. All this was used as a hub for connecting to other popular servers at the time.

Sorry I know it isn't related to the topic, but it had to be mentioned. 
Also A Zombie Wall Climb 
 
 
Yes, The Hub mod. I remember long ago Baker had mentioned an idea about a Quake server that would act as a hub for connecting to other servers and maps, so I went nuts with QuakeC to see what I could come up with. Ok, well, all my QuakeC is kind of nuts. I probably don't actually know QuakeC as well as a lot of other coders, but I can hack code like a crazy mofo.

Using lots of stuffcmds I had all the various exits around the Start map linking to all the various active servers at the time. Just touching an exit would test the server and give you a report about what map and players were connected there, and if you sat in the exit for 5 seconds you would connect to the other server.

Of course I made the whole map like an amusement park (making new floors and walls just using QuakeC to copy entities), with lots of things to do....

Here was n old thread on Quakeone: http://quakeone.com/forum/quake-talk/quake-central/1100-the-hub-two-thumbs-up

It runs as its own server, so I can't really get it up and running since I don't host servers. And it's more of a curiosity now anyway, since there are so few active servers these days, so it kind of lost it's initial purpose.

Though I have considered hacking the hub stuff into FvF Start map... but that would require me to be a lot less lazy than I am.

Oh, and I have to note the arcade games in The Hub were taken (and modified) from code made by FrikkaC and MauveBib.




And yeah, I'm passionate about stuff when I'm right about stuff ;)

And yeah, I will be very happy and pleased if MP3 starts working well for my WinXP netbook, but it would still be right to support OGG, for maximum compatibility and ease of use (remember, some single player map packs contain OGG soundtracks...). 
 
Mark V is going to have a built-in Quake Injector with full blown graphical user interface + search, taking the existing "install" command and taking it to the logical final step.

The same way QuakeDroid downloads shareware or how the "install" command downloads from Quaddicted, Mark V can easily download an mp3 for the very few Quake mods (three? four?) with some non-mp3 sound track.

Besides, Nehahra has the soundtrack in the crazy .xm format which I plan to convert to mp3 to eliminate the crazy fmod.dll dependency in Nehahra.

I've had a blueprint in mind for ages.

These small things are easily handled and not even interesting conversation to me.

I also plan ahead: Mark V had Android/iPhone code in the source for 2 years before QuakeDroid or releasing compilable source for the iPhone version which predated QuakeDroid by a month, for instance.

Likewise, today's Mark V source code has jpeg support so the built-in Quake Injector will be able to download map screenshots from Quaddicted and use them immediately on-screen.

/Boring details 
Nehahra DLL 
I always hated the fmod.dll dependency of Nehahra. Getting rid of that is another step in perfecting the support of this mod. Not sure if a conversion from XM to MP3 resulted in a loss of quality, though. 
 
There are a number of items in the pipeline, often undiscussed.

Like changing the Effects menu item from [Classic | JoeQuake] to [Classic | JoeQuake | NPRQuake]. The current source code is reorganized to make this straightforward to implement (last year's source code was not).

Also: Making mh's work on "r_shadows 3" really kick some major ass by having the option to have shadows acknowledge brush model collision as a surface (i.e. e1m1 slime bridge) would be great. The framework for the feature is already written. 
 
WAV memory usage is smaller than most compressed formats if it's streamed from the drive instead of being fully loaded.
In a world where 8gb is standard that's not really a big deal.

Besides, disk access is still slower than memory access anyway, so streaming from a HD in order to save memory, in a case where saving memory would not even be a requirement, seems to be the wrong side of a tradeoff. 
 
disk is slower but you can cache ahead as much as you need. The most intense disk i/o is at map load time so streaming during gameplay would reduce that.

(note: I am not advocating giant wav files to replace mp3s) 
XM Conversion 
Btw I am curious if Baker manages to make a flawless XM to MP3 conversion of the Nehahra music once it's necessary. I tried today and some of the tracks have crackling noise after conversion, even after normalization. 
@nightfright 
How does this one sound to you? My initial attempt to convert had crackly sounds for this track.

I then meditated on it a little and the result was this ... which seems to be perfect.

Nehahra - neh5.mp3

Let me know. 
Mark V HD High Resolution Pack - June 16 2018 
Screenshots: Screenshot 1 | Screenshot 2 | Screenshot 3

Download: HD Pack - 128 MB and extract to c:/quake/hd

* High resolution textures (via qrp.quakeone.com)
* Modified JoeQuake menu to match Mark V.
* Conback and character set (via gfx.quakeworld.nu)
* .lits and transparent water .vis for Quake maps.

You may wish to set the following for best results ...

viewsize 110 // Hud to more Quakeworld appearance
scr_scaleauto 2 // "Auto Large"
qmb_active 1 // QMB effects instead of classic

Read more ...  
HD 
I'm not a fan of the look but I will check these out for educational purposes and I am a fan of Mark V. 
 
That type of look is popular in Quakeworld, DarkPlaces replacement textures users (Google up "Quake Epsilon" or "Quake HD" ... you might be surprised). and those who may have in the past really liked JoeQuake or Qrack (*).

There are also users who like high resolution textures because that have a large monitor and Quake textures don't look magnified on a large display because they lack the detail.

(Qrack: R00k doesn't seem like he is updating Qrack much these days. Qrack was popular for especially among those who liked playing original Threewave CTF online, and the last couple of years NetQuake multiplayer has declined quite a bit.)

I may in the future add some more options to support more fully the appearance of an ezQuake-looking HUD. 
 
its slowly evolving with some tweaks and feature
just not as many players any more so ive
ive been focusing on singleplayer functionality
but not dead but nothing to write home about
:D 
Trouble Since Windows 10 April Update 
My Windows 10 did the large April update, and since then Mark V has been super slow to start up, taking several seconds, whereas Quakespasm, for example, still loads almost instantly. Also, I'm not sure if it's related to the problem, but I tried playing dm4jam_ww, and without exception the game freezes when the Shambler's supposed to spawn at the beginning.

Has anyone else done the April update and had the above problems with Mark V afterwards?

For your information, if the engine freezes for you and you're unable to get the task manager window or the mouse pointer visible, I was able to do it with the following steps:

1. Press the WIN + TAB keys
2. Navigate to Mark V with the arrow keys
3. Press SHIFT + F10
4. Move the game to another desktop
5. Your primary desktop should become visible and controllable, where you can open up the task manager and shutdown Mark V. 
 
What I've observed is that the latest Mark V and latest Quakespasm both take a few seconds to start up now -- longer than I remember from before -- and that Mark V Winquake is still fast. 
 
I don't have issues starting up the engine but I get pretty poor performance. I've had slowdowns in id maps. Meanwhile my FPS doesn't dip like this in other source ports. Mark V WinQuake is all right but my PC has a hard time getting good performance out of regular Mark V. 
 
More Windows 10 updates weirding things up ...

Anyone else using Windows 10 have issues with the engine?

/Looks like an investigation is in order, but little surprised this didn't arise as an issue back in, say, April or May. 
@Baker 
Chiming in. Audio issues but I don't have access to that particular machine ATM. I thought it was my crappy hardware but then trying 1099 on an older Win7 laptop confirms there's likely an issue with Win10.

I will have access to another Win10 machine in a couple of days. Will report back ASAP. 
Not Sure Where To Ask This 
Is there a way to autoconcatenate demos? I never can do demos because I spam quicksave/quickload so often.

Am I admitting I play horribly...not really, but I love to save, do something stupidly crazy, probably die or fall to my doom, then quick load. I like to take huge risks, blast into a room, run around and get 50 baddies to follow me, trail vore balls through the lot, etc.

Is there a way to restart recording on the same demo file on quickload? 
Demo To Avi/mpeg 
Is there an engine with support to record demos direct to video format? 
Qmaster 
Mark V has a way to record a demo to avi. Search for capturedemo above.

Also cl_autodemo for automatic demo recording. But I have not played with it. cl_autodemo 1 for host_maxfps 72 and cl_autodemo 2 for framerates above that.

I know there were some very good demo tools designed for protocol 15 that have wonderful features. I need to go and research them tho. I killed those brain cells with beer long ago! They are all old and may still work. Keygrip was the craziest one. Had an editing UI and everything. I tried getting it to work last year without any luck.

There was one great tool that made a highlight reel from deathmatches. It would eliminate everything but the kills and you could adjust the time before and after.

I am SURE there was one that joined demos. Just have to find it. But probably no way would it work with newer protocols. :(

I have the same issue. I Quicksave a lot and when I am reviewing someone's work I have to go back and reload and start a new demo. 
 
also if you just want a video and don't need an actual demo file, you could use outside software like Fraps or the Windows "Game Bar" 
 
There is a command line tool called convdemo for protocol 15 at http://web.comhem.se/bjp/ that can concatenate demos (which may not be a lot of help since everyone uses protocol 666), but you could type "sv_protocol 15" in the console before playing and many maps probably still play with that on.

Mark V you can type "capturedemo demo1" in the console, the Mark V page has a codec that works fast and easy listed.

You can also do a .bat that looks like this and Mark V will exit after the capturedemo is completed.

c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo1
c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo2
c:/quake/mark_v.exe +capturedemo demo3

Mark V doesn't have a demo concat built into it.

Like dumptruck said, the "find" command finds about anything. 
 
Along the lines of what metlslime said, there are video tools that concat videos.

Probably easier to do that ... 
Oh Ok 
Drat...screen capture sucks though. Slows everything down. 
 
Quite a number of quake engines support video encoding one way or another. If you're intent on avoiding demos then my advice to you would be to avoid xvid. ffdshow should have an h264 encoder accessed via the x264 fourcc setting, but as that's patented I have no idea what americans should use instead for streamed video.

If you're okay with a demo, then try fte's capturedemo command. Its an offline offscreen demo capture process, so it'll run as fast as your hardware allows (iirc, dp also has some sort of offline capture, but it doesn't support 666 so w/e).

Which reminds me that I really ought to update fte's ffmpeg plugin in order to make use of nvenc etc properly, which should greatly reduce the overheads - if you've got an nvidia gpu (which should also be a way around patent issues). 
 
The supplied XVID codec on the Mark V has a few advantages that I have not been able to find in another free download:

1. It is rather fast. (WebM is way slower)
2. It doesn't come with adware.
3. It doesn't come with some other junkware.
4. It is easy to install.
5. It is known to work with the Windows video capture library that AVI capture Quake engines use.
6. Doesn't need a registered copy to encode.
7. It is known to work with the engine.
8. H.264 codecs seem to get overwritten by video apps installing their own special H.264 codec.
9. Doesn't do watermarks for unregistered versions.

For instance, I've found H.264 library and I did get it to work nice, but I had to do a lot of cmd.exe commands and might have had to run it as administrator --- too much to explain.

So I have a downloadable codec that is click, click, click to install.

/Anyway, the H.264 ones I found always seemed to have undesirable characteristics or junkware or put watermarks on the videos. And if it did work, the next video app might overwrite it with its own H.264 codec. Or so I recall. I myself would prefer a hassle-free H.264 codec without spyware or unwanted junk. 
Well Mostly 
I would just want to make normal demos under protocol 666 or 999 without changing my playstyle. :/ 
 
add "+cl_autodemo 1" to the command line or type it in the console before the map. It should do a demo every time you re-load from a save.

Then use something like Virtual Dub Mod (free) or some other video app to concatenate the videos together.

Another option is something like Bandicam and record the screen while you play. 
#2274 
That's cool! Because I often refrain of recording demos because of Saving/Loading. 
Mouse Troubles 
Lately I've been having an issue with mouse clicks occasionally not registering. I doubt that it's a problem with my mouse because I've tested extensively in a few other source ports and I never had issues there. 
OBS Local Recording? 
It's worked pretty flawless from my experience? And I even have an old PC(circa 2010 AMD.

You have plenty of options etc, why is this not mentioned? 
I Have Obs, Quality Is Horrid 
Thanks baker, I'll give it a whirl. 
@poorchop 
I play some Quake 3-4 times a week. Never experience mouse issues. And haven't seen any issues like posted in the thread.

I'll keep an open mind, though. 
 
It could be a Windows 10 thing. One of the updates within the past several months broke mouse look in the SDL 1 version of Quakespasm. I've used Mark V quite a bit but I only started noticing this mouse problem within the past week or so. Or maybe my mouse is failing but coincidentally only when using Mark V. 
 
I have a machine that I think now has all the updates for Windows 10.

Probably next week I'm going to see if I can experience any Windows 10 issues and see if I can locate a list of behavior changes for the "Spring Update".

Windows 10 updates are like a jar of random monkeys. Microsoft used to be good at compatibility and consistency. 
Uh...when? 
Well, Win7 has done me good for like 7 years so.

https://i.imgur.com/QOz79l2.png 
Baker 
Can you confirm the proper settings to play Mark V with a 144Mhz monitor?

My current config:

host_maxfps 144
vid_refresh 0

QS runs smooth as silk. It's clearly not working in Mark V 1099 and seems a bit stutter-y.

And yes I know 144 breaks physics. I just prefer playing this way. One thing to note: I use the same directory for QS and Mark V and switch between them often. Could it be a cvar I am missing? 
 
I don't have 144 hz monitor, so beyond:

* vid_vsync 0 + host_maxfps 288 (yes 288, not 144 for 144Hz) ... might get better results ..

Back when I did have a display with a higher refresh rate available, I don't recall it behaving any differently.

Does this alternate version of Mark V do 144 hz smoothly? SDL alt build. There may be something SDL is doing to smooth things, but this falls into the "hard to code for scenario one cannot test".

/Note to self: See if can locate a 144hz display. 
 
Also might need to manually set the refresh rate in Nvidia Control Panel to 144 when running Mark V or play with some settings there.

Mark V doesn't request a refresh rate.

(Because when Mark V first came out, it looked like 60 Hz was going to all displays, there weren't 144 Hz monitors and the only thing that supported changing refresh rates were CRTs and those were already dinosaurs.) 
Baker 
Don't forget to add Spike's QSS fix for high fps. 
@Baker 
The SDL version had no change.

Typo above I meant vid_vsync 0

Setting "Highest Available" in the nvidia control panel was the ticket. That was the only option available to me in the CP. Thank you.

I am going to try and get 1099r4 tested on my Windows 10 machine tomorrow to check some of the issues mentioned above since the Spring update. 
@dumptruck_ds 
Setting "Highest Available" in the nvidia control panel was the ticket.

That fixed the issue?

If so, when I do new version around Christmas I could have Mark V have a refresh rate cvar or command line param and just specify the refresh rate on startup.

Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. 
#2264 
Good idea. A way to implement it would be:

- If recording a demo, store its filename into the savegame;
- When loading a save, reload its corresponding demo;
- Search in the demo for the frame that corresponds to the current frame stored into the savegame;
- Delete all frames stored afterwards, and resume recording. This new recording could use a different filename to indicate that it's a new branch (like "mydemo.dem", "mydemo(1).dem", "mydemo(2).dem", "mydemo(1)(1).dem", etc.). 
Baker 
Yep that fixed it. Silky smooth now. 
Full Colors Maps 
Full color maps were briefly brought up in another thread.

Short Video: Full Color Maps

Map Download: halflife.bsp - 239 kb for anyone to try themselves in Mark V.

Will also work in FTE, DarkPlaces, several other engines. 
 
Full color what, exactly? Colored lighting + 16/32-bit textures? 
Textures Unbound From The Palette 
 
 
hlbsp has licensing issues from its toolchain, and the hull size issues makes it generally unusable for quake anyway.

besides, lit files and (same-size) replacements provide all the same advantages and with well-defined compat fallbacks, and without shamblers ending up half-inside walls, and retains overbrights, just with more files (unfortunately).

if really needed then the -bspxlit arg can be used to embed the lit files, and -notex can be used to force external/replacement textures using the same mechanism hlbsp uses for external textures (so should work in the same engines) including support for q1 or hl miptex from a texture wad. 
How To Make A Video In 45 Seconds Expending No Effort 
How To Make A Video In 45 Seconds Expending No Effort ...

0. Do once: Install XVID codec 11 MB. This isn't about the codec, this is about something that works quickly and doesn't come with ads/spyware.

1. Go to a map.
2. Type record thisdemo
3. Walk around for 30 seconds.
4. Type stop to end demo recording.
5. Type capturedemo thisdemo

Your are done. Where is thisdemo.avi? Type folder and it will be highlighted in Windows Explorer.

6. Optional: Drag and drop it on your YouTube page and upload it.

If you are in 640 x 480 windowed mode when typing capturedemo it will be faster than say fullscreen resolution @ 1400 x 900 because 640 x 480 has far less pixels to encode than 1400 x 900. 
 
"Anyone else using Windows 10 have issues with the engine? "

Not so much in MarkV; but QArack, and JoeQuake specifically take 10 to 15 seconds to initialize in win 10 for me. Where as both engines take under 5 seconds on my XP and win7 machines. Dunno. opengl 1.x emulation? 
@Baker 
I can confirm that startup on Windows 10 is extremely slow on my new tower. I have an Intel 7820 and 32Gbs of RAM. HD is a pretty decent raid from 10,000 RPM drives. Videocard is a Nivida GTX 780.

In Windows 7 - a much older machine startup is near instantaneous.

No audio issues as I have seen on my laptop thankfully.

Is there any way I can help observe/record the startup issue for you? 
@dumptruck 
1. Is it just the Direct X version?

2. Or is it also true for the WinQuake version also?

3. What about the SDL alternate build? download

It might help me triangulate in on something. 
@Baker 
I'll test this evening and post results. I probably should have done a proper test.

Also a question about Dx9 files you have linked? How do I determine if I need those? 
2x Post 
Sorry yes I was setting up TB2 and only played around with the DirectX version as well as QS and QSS. I'll copy over the SDL alternate and WinQuake versions this evening. 
 
> How do I determine if I need those?

Great question!

Mfx said he had the issue and said installing those files solved it, but I'm not seeing a description of the message other than "it didn't start up".

Posts 2106, 2109, 2110 -- "mfx - Thx, that download helped, works now." 
 
Yeah Mark V needs the DirectX 9 runtime support. I don't remember the error message but IIRC it's fairly obvious if that's why it's failing to start.

If you play other games on your computer there's a good chance you already have this installed. If not, it's harmless to install it. 
 
In the future, I may try to roll DX9 detection/installation into the installer form of the engine distribution.

There will of course always be the plain zips of the engine .exes. 
@Baker 
Report on Mark V Windows 10 delayed launch (and exit)

Mark V 1099r4 delay of 3-6 seconds launching and exit.

mark_v_sdl_gl_gcc - no delay
mark_v_winquake - no dleay
mark_v_winquake_gl - no delay

quakespasm .93.1 win64 - short delay launching and exiting (1-2 seconds)
quakespasm-spiked-win64 - short delay launching and exiting (1-2 seconds)

Mark V 1099r4 has the longest pause of all exes. 
@dumptruck 
So DirectX Mark V is 3-6 seconds slower starting/exiting. Quakespasm is 1-2 seconds slower starting/exiting.

But Mark V WinQuake, SDL and OpenGL are unaffected.

Trying to unravel that ...

It is possible that specifying a refresh rate on startup slows things down. Quakespasm does this. DirectX Mark V specifies a refresh rate that is the desktop default when requesting fullscreen mode. The Mark V WinQuake/SDL/OpenGL doesn't touch refresh rate.

If I am right ...

Does the following have a difference in start up times ...

a) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -window -width 800 - height 600 // DirectX
b) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -current // DirectX

If it relates to the refresh rate, according to the code it looks like in windowed mode that Mark V DirectX does not set a refresh rate, but for fullscreen mode it does.

/A guess. If this thought turns out not to lead anywhere and it may not, I have a couple of other thoughts but this best matches your test results ...

Let me know ... 
 
If a 6 second delay is a problem, my engine is fucked.

But yeah, it's always nice to eliminate unnecessary delays. 
 
A delay at startup does sound like it's changing the display mode for sure; that would certainly do it.

Some info on command-line params used and resolutions of the PCs being compared would help a little more here. 
Specs 
@baker I need to try this in windowed mode too. But I'll try what you posted above. Typically I stick to fullscreen.

One other thing that might help. Much of the time I am editing and using Necros' GUI to launch ericw's tools and in turn, MV. The tools compile quickly as expected, then there's the delay in launching MV. Then I review the compiled map. Now for whatever reason after I quit MV the cmd windows (which has been running in the bg as usual) stays up for about 3-4 seconds before closing.

I am 99% sure the delay in launching MV happens if I click a shortcut on the desktop without running any compilation so maybe unrelated?

@mh

Just remember this is Windows 10 now. My older machine is Win7 and had zero issues on start up and shut down with the same monitor and a very similar video card and same MV version. Also the same command line etc.

1920x1080 144Hz refresh forced by nvidia cp and that's my desktop res and refresh as well so I don't think it's mode switching.

I need to confirm but I'm pretty sure the delay happened before I set the refresh in nvidia to 144Hz

parms are +developer 1 and +gl_clear 1 +load map <map I am editing> (those were the same on other systems) 
 
It does seem to take a while to load for me too. QS is pretty instant 
 
Much of the time I am editing and using Necros' GUI to launch ericw's tools and in turn, MV.

Windows programs inherits the CPU affinity and the process priority of the process that launches them. If the launcher is e.g. a single-threaded 32-bit program running at low priority, maybe Mark V needs some extra time to adjust its process' properties. Just a guess. 
@Baker 
Home and testing this now. We're getting somewhere.

Does the following have a difference in start up times ...

a) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -window -width 800 - height 600 // DirectX
b) c:/quake/mark_v.exe -current // DirectX


No delay on the windowed setting above! Fires right up. Also I have QS and QSS in the same forectory of MarkV so they share config.cfg. I'm noticing if I switch between those two the delay in launching and closing them goes away. If I launch MV then QS or QSS afterward the delay on those two is back. Albiet shorter as I said above. 
 
Can you confirm there is never a delay for windowed mode?

If so, that would be convincing enough evidence to make a test "fix" for DX9 fullscreen mode.

/Probably throwing in a pq_moveup bug-fix that PoorChop spotted. 
Possible DX9 "No Delay" On Fullscreen Startup Fix? 
@dumptruck, fifth + anyone else who experiences a delay on DX9 Mark V startup:

Download: DX9 Mark V - July 11 potential slow startup fix

@dumptruck -- let me know! 
@Baker 
So this July 11 version no change.

Made 2 shortcuts on my desktop to this new exe.

Windowed mode launched 5 times in a row with almost no delay.

Using fullscreen (-current) re-introduced the delay.

I launched this 5 times as well - all the same. The I switched between the two shortcuts twice. Same results.

I tried this new exe on my older Win7 machine and it doesn't have the issue. Launches full screen with only a tiny delay. 
 
As I said, that is almost certainly a display mode change. Probably 2, switching away from your desktop mode then switching to whatever your selected mode is.

Check your console output log and you should see evidence of it. A bunch of vid_describemodes and vid_describecurrentmode commands can also help.

Yes. I'm aware of the fact that it happens on 10 vs 7, but the fact that it doesn't happen in windowed modes is additional evidence. 
@dumptruck 
Great! You might also check and see if the fix eliminates the need to set the refresh Hz in the Nvidia control panel for your 144hz display.

It may resolve that, then again it may not. 
 
/I think dumptruck has easily earned the June and July "Gunter Award For High Quality Beta Testing".

Nothing is less fun with engine coding than issues that require setups not easily available.

Thanks for the high quality beta testing that identified the source of this issue! 
@Baker 
Thanks I am no Gunter tho.

Did you misunderstand though? This did new release not fix the issue. :( 
When You State... 
"Full external texture support, DP naming convention."

Does Mark V use special effect textures as well? Gloss, normals etc? And what about shaders?

Just curious. 
Nvrmnd ^^^ 
I see you have a HD pack using qrp textures, I can derive the answer from that. Apologies 
 
@dumptruck -- my bad. I quickly scanned the post and only saw the "no delay" and "with only a tiny delay". Missed the part saying the problem still exists for fullscreen. Sorry ... guilty as charged!

I know I vastly prefer the DX9. Maybe mh will come up with some thoughts at some point. The inner workings of DX9 isn't in my knowledge set.

Odd that the OpenGL variants like the WinQuake-GL (WinQuake rendered through Open GL) and the SDL (which is also OpenGL) have no delay.

@damage - Just vanilla replacement texture support like ezQuake, JoeQuake, Qrack.

Mark V supports texture replacement from HUD to Quake models to conback and menu graphics. 
What's Delay 
thingy tho?

ps. sometimes i get the fps locking at 60 
@spy 
If sounds like you have an app running in the background that is forcing video sync.

All you can do is close the other app.

I've seen it happen before, but I can't remember what it was for me (Netflix?). 
 
As I've now said twice, it's a display mode change. Probably two. Seen it once, seen it a million times. I don't understand why dumptruck is being resistant to helping diagnose this further, though.

Traditionally Quake engines only track width, height and bpp when matching display modes. Some engines add refresh rate. A real display mode contains other values, however, and it's possible for two or more modes to exist which are the same so far as these traditional values are concerned but which are actually otherwise different.

Don't be surprised if Windows 10 adds additional modes that aren't in 7. It's a higher version of the driver model with extra capabilities.

What's happening is that dumptruck is running with -current but the engine is not starting in the current mode. It's starting in some other mode, which involves a display mode change, then switching to the current mode which involves another.

There's no delay when shutting down because it's already in the current mode and so doesn't need to switch back.

The other engines have a shorter delay at both startup and shutdown because they're doing a single mode change at each.

There's no delay running -windowed because it doesn't do a mode change at all.

In an ideal world that first mode would be a windowed one and all of this would go away - instant startups would be back. But when I tried to do this years ago I got HUGE pushback from the community. Yayy community.

Anyway, I asked dumptruck to check his console debug log which would tell us which mode it was starting in first, which could have been useful information. But once more he's being resistant to helping us to help him, so I guess that's where it's gonna end, unless he comes round.

@dumptruck - just to be clear.

I am NOT saying "you silly person, ha ha ha",

I AM saying "it's an engine bug. Help us to help you. Please" 
Come On Now Mh 
I'm not sure why you're bagging on the one guy who is downloading extra builds and running all sorts of tests on request. If he's overlooked something you asked him to do then you could make that clear. 
 
I've previously told him twice that it was a display mode change. He responded the first time to insist it wasn't, he ignored the second. I've previously asked for his console log and the output of some vid_describe commands. He ignored that too. So obviously I'm the bad guy here. Yayy Community. Again. 
@baker 
If sounds like you have an app running in the background that is forcing video sync.

yep, It frequently happens when i run the online widz etc

but
sometimes it happens just for no reason , switching to desktop and back to the game's solving the issue 
@dumptruck 
Looks like I need to experience the problem firsthand and see if I can get the problem.

It is possible something non-obvious is going on.

mh brings up bits per pixels and some other factors.

Mark V always tries to use what it thinks are the desktop "current" parameters with -current (ignoring all config settings), but maybe Windows 10 adds some additional parameters I didn't consider.

@mh - Eventually I'll get to the bottom of what is going on. The main issue to trying to find technical info on what Windows 10 updates changes/impacts has been difficult. 
 
THE FIRST DISPLAY MODE CHANGE

This is happening inside VID_Local_Vsync_Init where a call is made to sysplat.wglSwapIntervalEXT(0) - under OpenGL this is not a display mode change; under Direct3D it is.

Suggested solution: suppress this test if running under the D3D9 wrapper; you can safely assume that vsync control is always available in D3D9. This will shave 3 seconds off the startup time. 
 
Got it. I'll give that a try.

Thanks, mh! 
 
THE SECOND AND THIRD DISPLAY MODE CHANGES

In classic Fitz, at the end of VID_Init there is this block of code:

if (COM_CheckParm("-width") || COM_CheckParm("-height") ||
COM_CheckParm("-bpp") || COM_CheckParm("-window"))
{
vid_locked = true;
}


This needs to have "-current" added to the list of params checked, otherwise the engine will run the configs during startup and trigger two display mode changes (assuming a clean config, could be more). The first of these changes is slow, the second is fast (in my test the first went from fullscreen to windowed, the second just changed the size of a windowed mode).

In MarkV I think the equivalent is the video_override_commandline_params array, which is missing "bpp" from classic Fitz's list.

Fixing this up shaves a further 3 seconds off the startup time, and startup times are now instantaneous with no display mode changes happening. 
 
I'll examine that as well.

Yeah, bpp is gone (that's a relic from the 1990s when 65536 color mode was a thing). 
 
As a troubleshooting tip...

In context_t::PreReset I added the following at the start:

Con_Printf ("context_t::PreReset: %f\n", Sys_FloatTime ());

In context_t::PostReset I added the following at the end:

Con_Printf ("context_t::PostReset: %f\n", Sys_FloatTime ());

I was then able to track when display mode changes occurred and cross-reference that with whatever else was going on in the console during startup, as well as time how long each change took. Makes it very quick for hunting down this kind of thing. 
@mh 
I don't understand why dumptruck is being resistant to helping diagnose this further, though.

I need to read the rest of the thread above but I promise you I am not ignoring this situation. I can only test after work and family stuff kept me busy last night until pretty late.

Honesty, I didn't notice anything in the console and I was definitely paying attention the other night when I DID test.

So my desktop is set to 144. The game is set to 144 there's still a mode change in FS? I don't get that.

What I will ask is that someone let me know what I can look at in Windows to help troubleshoot. I am not stellar with troubleshooting the OS. 
2nd Post 
Sorry.

There's no delay when shutting down because it's already in the current mode and so doesn't need to switch back.

There IS a delay when shutting down but not 7 seconds. The game will close but the Mark V icon is still in the Quicklaunch bar and the system is unresponsive until it closes.

I will post console logs with the info mh is targeting as soon as I can. 
@dumptruck 
You don't need to do anything.

mh solved it. It's all on me now.

I want to wrap up the SnapTile editor (yeah, going with the name mankrip chose -- I can't do better) before doing a Mark V fix.

So give me a few days.

When I get close to completing something, I develop a one-track mind where I want to finish it. 
@Baker 
Thanks. And please no pressure on a timeline. Do your thing, happy to wait for your fine work. :) Excited to see this SnapTile project in action. 
Mark_v Takes 7 Full Seconds To Load 
Seems like a lot. Just tested it with latest build.
Windowed mode is instant.

Tried changing my refresh rates and this doesn't change the delay (I have a 144hz monitor).

Closing Mark_V takes 4 full seconds fullscreen and closes instantly when in windowed mode. 
@dumptruck 
Yeah, we tracked it down.

I owe you an apology for being a dickhead about this. On the other hand, MarkV will get better as a result. 
Mh 
No worries! Poor Baker though. Coding during the summer. ;) 
 
I'm only the idiot who wrote the code, Baker's the idiot who has to maintain it! 
Video: High Definition Pack With More Realistic Shadows 
High Definition Pack Video With More Realistic Shadows:

Watch Video

1) r_shadows 3
2) r_waterripple 3
3) QMB on, obviously
4) With HD Pack and Transparent Water .Vis/.Lits Pack

For illustration purposes. 
 
dumptruck_ds: Thanks I am no Gunter tho.

Hey, you're doing extensive testing and detailed reports to help squash obscure bugs AND getting mh miffed, so you're well on your way! 
 
Cool shadows. Any chance for lit liquids in the future? 
 
I can't remember if mh wrote a full fledged prototype or not and if the one or two small but important barriers were solved (i.e. detecting lit water and maybe something else).

I think if he did, it would eventually happen. 
 
I've solved the detection and posted the solution in some thread here or at InsideQC a long time ago.

The other problem was to compile the maps properly, but EricW solved that. 
Lit Liquids 
Wasn't there an issue with the surface warping making it look really bad? 
#2347 
Not in my engine.

And in hardware-accelerated engines it should be easy to combine warped textures with non-warped lighting through shaders. 
 
Detection: http://forums.insideqc.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5835

And in hardware-accelerated engines it should be easy to combine warped textures with non-warped lighting through shaders.

This doesn't need shaders; hardware-accelerated Quake already uses two separate sets of texture coords for difuse and lightmap, so just warp the diffuse coords only but don't warp the lightmap coords.

The issue is that whatever way you slice it, it looks bad.

I do understand where the desire to do this comes from. You've built a map, you have a large water surface in it, the surrounding geometry is nicely lit and shadowed, and the fullbright water looks bad. And you're right, the fullbright water does look bad, but lit water actually looks worse.

The two big problems are (1) when the lighting on the water is sufficiently dark you can't see the warp effect at all i it just looks like a big dark spot, and (2) with translucent water enabled the water just disappears.

This is an example of taking a special case and wanting a general case solution for it, but not properly considering how that general case solution may or may not work outside of the original special case.

"Can I have lit water?" seems a reasonable request, but you also need to be thinking about lit laval, lit slime, lit teleports, how it interacts with translucent water, etc. 
 
I've already considered all of that years ago and Retroquad has individual cvars for each texture type. I usually keep r_portal_lit and r_lava_lit disabled in Retroquad, because the textures I'm using for them doesn't have glowmaps. But the slime texture I'm using does.

Your mistake is to think that you're the only one who thought about all that. No, you're not, you haven't even thought about liquid textures with glowmaps (QRP has them!), and the worst thing is that you're speculating from a purely theoretical standpoint while I'm speaking from experience.

Lit water does look fucking good. The Unreal engine already has lit water since 1998, and nobody ever complained about it because its maps were created with lit water in mind. Lit liquids in Quake is for NEW MAPS ONLY because the maps need a full recompile from the .map sources for this to work and the mapper must deliberately opt-in to enable it in the compiler.

Your issue is that you don't want mappers to have a chance. You don't want them to experiment and learn how to tweak the lighting in their maps to make lit liquids look good. You don't want them to have artistic freedom.

The "it looks bad" argument is not a technical argument, it's merely an uninformed opinion.

You are not a mapper. 
 
...and the worst thing is that you're speculating from a purely theoretical standpoint while I'm speaking from experience

I am actually also speaking from experience because I have also written this code and have also seen what lit water looks like.

Here's the Quaktastic folder where I uploaded a bunch of screenshots: http://www.quaketastic.com/?dir=files/screen_shots/LITWater

Check the date on them - over a year and a half ago.

Check some examples of exactly what I mean:

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e2m5_litwater.jpg

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e1m5_litwater.jpg

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/LITWater/e1m2_litwater.jpg

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about, whereas I actually do. When I say "lit water actually looks worse" you had two options and you instantly reached for the negative one - yayy community. 
 
I am actually also speaking from experience because I have also written this code

No, you are speaking from MAPPING experience.

I've never made a full map but I often practice mapping to test and learn how new features like this could be used. 
#2352 
* not speaking 
 
Not only you used screenshots from other people's maps that were NOT designed for lit water, your E1M2 screenshot shows that you probably didn't recompile them using the latest versions of EricW's compilers, which properly lits the liquids from both sides. The lighting at the edges of the water should be similar to the lighting of the walls that crosses them. 
 
All your screenshots looks like they didn't use EricW's compilers. Completely missing backside lighting.

I'm on mobile and not at home now, but asap I'll post some screenshots of those maps properly recompiled. 
Hmm.. 
To me all three of those screenshots you chose mh look quite promising and easy to work around to get pretty lit water with some effort from the mapper (and yeah some compiler magic would obviously help).
Would be curious to see with some high alpha values, as you seem to say it looks ugly, but plenty of other games have lightmaped transparents that look fine. 
 
OK, I am going to put my money where my mouth is.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater.zip

This package contains:

(1) A version of GLQuake modified to support lightmapped water.

(2) Source code for it.

(3) A version of e2m5 compiled, using EricW's tools, for lightmapped water.

So now everyone can see it. 
#2357 
Finally. We should let the mappers decide. Thanks for listening.

And to finish settling this, here are the comparison screenshots:

mh E1M2
Retroquad E1M2 (opaque)
Retroquad E1M2 (translucid)


mh E1M5
Retroquad E1M5 (opaque)
Retroquad E1M5 (translucid)


mh E2M5
Retroquad E2M5 (opaque)
Retroquad E2M5 (translucid)

My recompiled E1M5 and E2M5 maps used an older version of EricW's compilers that added improper dirtmapping to liquids, IIRC (which is why their water is a little darker on the edges). But my recompiled E1M2 map used a later version that fixed all issues. Anyway, see how different all of them are from yours. 
 
Since mh wrote a prototype for it (using GLQuake makes it essentially a tutorial for any engine developer), it rather likely that some future date it will added to Mark V.

Especially since ericw (and Spike too?) invested the time to make lit water in the ericw compile tools.

I don't have an opinion of lit water. It is the time investment by other developers which would be the reason to have interest in adding it from my point of view. 
 
Here's a screenshot of my recompiled E1M2 running in mh's GLQuake with opaque lit water support
Hey Poorchop 
I noticed that Poorchop mentioned mouseclicks not registering. I'm seeing that myself at the moment with a fresh Mark V install on latest Windows 10... sometimes it's the +mouse1 that doesn't register (and so it doesn't fire), sometimes the -mouse1 (and so it doesn't stop firing).

Happens with both mark_v and mark_v_winquake. Doesn't happen with latest quakespasm.

Anyway, just some corroboration. Let me know if I should test/try something. 
@johnny 
Hmmm.

1. Does the SDL alternate build do this as well? SDL build

This would tell me if it were something about the pure Windows code or the all operating systems code.

2. Also: What do you have mouse1 bound to? Attack? Jump? 
 
1. Not nearly as often. I was hoping I could say "never", but I do think it missed a couple of mousedowns during a map playthrough. (While in comparison, it would not be unusual for mark_v.exe to miss a mouse event in the course of even an individual fight.)

2. +attack 
 
One probably-irrelevant difference I noticed: the mark_v.exe FPS display is pegged at 72 (my host_maxfps), while the FPS display in the SDL build wandered between 67 and 70 on the same map. 
 
Yeah, the probably irrelevant difference is just that. The DX9 is better at hitting exactly the 72 because it is faster.

re: mouse - Looks like more to do with Windows 10. I'm glad you are able to replicate the issue PoorChop experienced, increases odds of conclusively solving it. 
 
I'm glad too, good to know that I'm not the only one experiencing this. 
 
For the people who want to test it, here are some of the ID1 maps I've recompiled with lit liquids:
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/litwater_id1mapexamples.7z

I've tried to figure out how to implement lightmapped translucent liquids in mh's GLQuake code, but hardware rendering isn't my thing and I've got no time to learn it. 
 
If I get time I'll do a 2.0 build. It's not overly difficult, like you indicate, just a matter of knowing what to do. 
When You Wish Upon A Star... 
So these lit water and things are looking cool. I am also wondering about the possibility to implement sv_protocol 999 support in Mark V.

The map I'm working on needs it, and I get a hard crash with hunc_alloc error similar to TerShib when I try to force it.

Is there a chance to see this happen? I would love to be able to see how the map handles in Mark V. 
 
Version 2 with translucent water support: http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater_2.zip 
 
HUGE thanks!

Initially I thought "well, I can just combine the texture & lighting like the translucent mirrors does before blending", but then I found out that GLQuake's mirrors doesn't use lightmaps either. No way for clueless me to hack it in. 
 
 
I have to be quite tiresome about this and confess that I'm still not a fan of the look. To me, the water no longer looks like water - it looks solid instead.

I'd also be of the opinion that light should go through translucent water.

But then, Quake's rendering was never really about being 100% realistic anyway. 
 
Well, it still looks better in Retroquad, mainly because of soft depth. But I'm confident that mappers will figure out good ways to use it.

And it should certainly be optional. 
Feature Request For The Future 
cl_autodemo is really invaluable. If you could append the map filename to the file they generate that would be super helpful. Or at least part of the name. Ppl ask me to play their maps often and I use autodemo for this. Would be great to know what map a given demo is for outside of the exe. I am constantly renaming files. 
 
Redfield -- A large coordinates protocol would be a next year most likely. It wouldn't be sv_protocol 999, which sports lots of brokeness (I should make a video sometime).

Dumptruck - Mark V autodemo was adapted loosely from Qrack autodemo which does exactly that. If I am able to determine the cause of the Poorchop/Johnny Law mouse issue, I would probably throw in a "cl_autodemo 2" that like, Qrack, does exactly what you want. 
Ooh Ooh, An Idea! 
play_autos mydemo

To play all of mydemo0, mydemo1, 2, 3, 4 etc. automatically in a row.
And if someone leaves out, mydemo3 for instance, it would just skip to mydemo4.



Protocol 999 opt in cvar pretty please please. With sugar and a cherry on top. I've got a few Orl-size maps I'm working on that have a 99.9% chance of needing 999. 
Baker 
Yes, would you make that video demonstrating 999's brokenness? Or at least briefly talk about it? Cause I'm curious to know. 
@ORL 
Yes, in time I will make a video.

mh has an expression "once you see something, you can't unsee it".

I think seeing in this case is going to be necessary. 
Protocol 999 
I'm the original designer.

The core idea is actually quite solid. It's based on 666, but with the addition of a bunch of opt-in features. The client and server negotiate which features to use, and the whole thing can gracefully degrade if a feature is unsupported.

It was always more about higher precision angles and more TE_ effects than big coords, or at least that's how it seems to me thinking back, but big coords was just one of the things it could also support. The important thing though is that it's extensible nature means that you could plug in your own big coords system if you wanted.

Being built on 666 means that it inherits all of an NQ protocol's weaknesses. That's not an attack on 666, it's an observation on NQ protocols in general. There are much better ways of doing all of this stuff; supporting big coords, more precision, more effects AND being more efficient in the data stream. NQ is a bit brute force, which is fine in simpler setups but hits scalability ceilings much faster. 
 
mh: it was always more about higher precision angles ...

Translated: nice smooth rotating doors and draw bridges.

(like Remake Quake could do -- as opposed to clunky hipnotic doors)

Fitz 666 didn't have enough angle precision resulting in walking on a drawbridge coming down to not feel jerky and the same for getting pushed by an opening door. Also the higher precision angles were used for some rotating effects in QuakeC. 
So... 
999 should be used on any map with bsp rotation such as drawbridges, pushable gates (ne_ruins), rotating path changers (like Dismal Oubliette but rotaty), etc.

OR maps as big as Orl's.

Still not sure what the problem with it is. 
 
It should probably just be renamed to "ORL Protocol." 
@qmaster 
Nope. 999 does nothing for hipnotic rotation at all.

If you want to see real rotation, you'll have to play Remake Quake and trigger the draw bridge or find a rotating door.

Must use the Remake Quake engine -- Quakespasm doesn't support true rotation (nor does Mark V, it did briefly once upon a time but it led to the discovery of some oddness with existing Quake maps -- even a couple of stock Quake ones -- and was removed).

Sadly, true rotation sadly interferes some with existing maps where entities or even maps have the angles key set (and they shouldn't be). I think dis_sp3 is an example. 
 
a lot of games come with two *.exe's
one for windows 32 bits and one for windows 64 bits...quakespasm have quakespasm.exe and quakespasm-sdl2.exe... even quake has two exe's (normal and opengl)

maybe would be cool to have two markv.exe's, one for old maps and one for new maps with true rotation :)

just my two cents :) 
MH 
There's something strange I've spotted on your GLQuake code, in R_BuildLightMap.

This is your source:

for (j=0 ; j<smax ; j++)
{
t = *bl++;
t >>= 8;
if (t > 255)
t = 255;
dest[j] = t;
}


But this is the original source:

for (j=0 ; j<smax ; j++)
{
t = *bl++;
t >>= 7;
if (t > 255)
t = 255;
dest[j] = 255-t;
}


What's the reasoning behind that?
(255 - (t >> 7)) == (t >> 8) ?

Oh, wait, I've found it:
"shift the lightmap by 8 (jnstead of by 7) in R_BuildLightmap"
Overbrights, ok.

However, by doing that you lose precision, resulting in more abrupt discrepancies in light values across different surfaces, which is likely another reason why the lightmapped water in your GLQuake engine looks worse than in Retroquad.

Compare these shots:
GLQuake
Retroquad (with soft depth disabled) 
 
Yeah, that's overbrights. Yeah, it loses 1 bit of precision, but it still has 256 gradations of light - software Quake only had 64.

Rotation: higher precision can't fix Hipnotic rotation, that was born broke (fun fact: the hackiest mod is Nehahra, the second-most hackiest is Hipnotic). I can't recall the exact use case but it would have been something like a drawbridge that had the herky-jerkies with standard 8-bit angles. 
 
Retroquad uses the full 8 bits of precision, and it also compensates for the loss of precision. It has nothing in common with WinQuake when it comes to shading & texturing.

The fact is that the same light can be raycast to slightly different levels across the edges shared between different surfaces. The less precision is used, the bigger this difference can become. 
 
The full range of light scales per the BSP format can't be represented by standard 2x overbrights. "z" is double-bright, so with 4 lightsyles combined I make that 11 bits per channel, and that's not including dynamics.

I guess that the point is, you're always going to be losing precision. 
@Tribal 
maybe would be cool to have two markv.exe's, one for old maps and one for new maps with true rotation :)

32-bit vs. 64 bit doesn't have anything to do with rotation. Remake Quake engine with true rotation is a 32-bit.

Half-Life has had true rotation since 1998 and it evident in all aspects of the game.

There really aren't any advantages for 64-bit on Windows that I can name, except 64-bit uses a bit more memory because pointers are twice the size.

The Linux build of Mark V, for instance, has always been 64 bit. 
 
I guess it wasn't clear that I'm implying that the loss of precision can be compensated for by doing t = (t + (1 << 7)) >> 8. It's exactly the same principle of adding 0.5 to the velocity to fix the gravity issues in low framerates. It's obvious.

Anyway, it may be not enough. Besides this compensation, Retroquad performs color correction, gamma correction, brightness correction and multiple kinds of error diffusion.

Maybe the results will be better when your code gets ported to Mark V or other advanced engines. 
@Baker 
The win32/win64 bits was used just as an example of games that come with two exe's. I didn't want to imply that it has something to do with true rotation :)

Well, forget my lame example... My point is, why not compile two markV.exe's? One to play old maps and one (with true rotation) to play new maps that can use this feature? =D 
Yeah, Sure Not Quite Mark V But Whatever 
A induces B.

Image ---> video 
@mankrip 
That's just rounding to nearest rather than rounding down.

Believe me, I've rewritten the lightmapping code to use L16, RGB16, RGB32F, RGB10A2 and other formats over the years. I've written GPU lightmap implementations where the 4 styles are combined on the GPU with zero precision loss. I've stored exponential factors in the alpha channel and unpacked them in a shader. I've even done 4x overbrights with standard RGB8 lightmaps, losing 2 bits of precision.

This is not a big deal. For lightmaps the extended range is more important.

I guess a version 3 using L16 lightmaps might be in order to prove this. 
 
And just in case this needs to be explicitly stated.

The lightmapped water path uses exactly the same code as regular lightmapped surfaces. In GLQuake that's just multiplying 2 numbers, and nobody can claim that one way of multiplying 2 numbers gives a better or different result than another.

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing "Retroquad is better because..." - where can I download Retroquad, run it, study it's code and learn from it? Nowhere. You may as well be talking about touched-up screenshots for all the practical use that is. I've heard the mouth, show me the trousers. 
Arcane Sprites And Particles 
I was talking with some others about the way that Arcane's particle effects are rendered in different engines. I was wondering if you had any plans to bring Quakespasm's level of detail to the engine. QS doesn't really do a whole lot but there are some extra sprites for models like the flame. Their absence is pretty striking in Mark V. Here's what I mean:

QS:
https://i.imgur.com/5lvrO9y.jpg

Mark V:
https://i.imgur.com/rmgvRMq.jpg

I didn't even think that QS was doing anything in particular regarding Arcane's extra particle effects. I do know that QSS takes it a step further with smoke but I'm not expecting that level of detail in Mark V. I also know it's a pain when users make requests like this but don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for this to be turned into an existing engine. I just like the extra sprites and I was wondering if there were any plans for something like this. 
Their Absence Is Pretty Striking In Mark V 
not sure what you mean, i believe the particles not showing up on mark V - it's on your side

i have no probs here
https://imgur.com/a/YBJ9pFq 
 
I have a feeling that you're not using a default setup. The flame itself in your photo looks like a sprite or even just a bunch of particles lumped together. In a clean install of Mark V and a fresh install of Arcane 1.7.1 with default settings, flames don't look like that. 
 
Version 3, with GL_LUMINANCE16 lightmaps; thse are 16-bit lightmaps with 7 more bits of precision than GLQuake without overbrights and 8 more bits than GLQuake with overbrights. I'd encourage anyone who thinks that bits of precision in lightmaps are super-impotrant to run this and see if they actually are. I'd even encourage double-blind tests.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1LitWater_3.zip 
@Poorchop 
yeah, the patricles depend on temp1 in AD cfg settings 
Ah The Flames 
it's QMB enabled in my case, you can turn them off 
GPU Lightmaps Implmentation 
Quake 2 engine, D3D9, with GPU-animated lightstyles and GPU dynamic lights; renders the lightmaps at the full original precision of the BSP light data lump; unlimited dynamic range for added dynamic lights.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Quake2GPULightmaps.zip

It's a long time since I worked on this so I don't know how robust it is, but it should be fine for playing through the original SP missions. 
Quake 1, Partial Real-time Lighting Implementation 
This was another one that went part of the way but I didn't continue with; no real idea why. It uses real-time lighting derived from the same light equations as are used in the original light.exe, but I never got round to adding shadows. Needs heavy optimization work.

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/misc/Q1RTLights.zip

Its fun to run around the original maps and look at how different the lighting quality is, but I wouldn't play Quake with this. Also, any map compiled with any more modern tool will probably look hellish weird because I don't have support for all of the other options added since light.exe was originally released. 
As You've Stated 
I was talking with some others about the way that Arcane's particle effects are rendered in different engines.

https://imgur.com/a/3oSpkFn

this pretty much matches the qs screenshot 
Q2dx9 
not bad

https://imgur.com/IrDhF6Z

https://imgur.com/kFW0TIU

it seems it's a great alternative to KMQ 
 
That's just rounding to nearest rather than rounding down.

Yes, but in color calculations, every small inaccuracy amplifies the others. And as mentioned, gamma correction also plays a part and there may be issues with gamma correction.

Anyway, while I was open to explore how to improve the image in GLQuake and trying to figure out what's causing the differences in lighting, you're getting angrier. Better forget this conversation and leave it behind, it's not good to let things become unhealthy. 
#2405 
Go underwater ;) 
@Poorchop 
In Mark V change Temp1 to 1024 and restart the map for particles. Its at 0 by default. Mark V is capable of displaying the same AD particle effects as QS. 
MH 
the waterwarping is a pretty great
but i'm not a fan of distortions
sorry

https://imgur.com/a/LXc2KYT 
 
Thanks spy and Redfield, that worked and it looks great now. 
Gamma 
If you let Mark V generate a new config file from scratch and check the gamma, it says that it's set a 0.75 even though 1 is listed as the default. I thought that this was a bit strange and I'm looking for some insight on it.

I also have a slight suspicion that this has an impact on mappers. I've played some maps recently that were incredibly dark at gamma 1 and contrast 1, but they were much more playable at Mark V's default gamma of 0.75. It makes me wonder if people are mostly just testing in Mark V causing their maps to be extremely dark in other source ports that default to 1/1 gamma/contrast. 
Gamma 
GLQuake defaulted it's gamma to 0.7 on non-3DFX hardware. Not sure why MarkV is doing similar but it seems too much of a coincidence. 
 
Mark V doesn't default gamma 0.75 (gamma 1 is default), but a certain revision did (revision 2? revision 3?) where I was merging with QuakeDroid. Johhny Law noticed different defaults in the Windows version and I corrected.

QuakeDroid defaults gamma 0.75 because gamma 1 is just too dark. 
Windows 10/Poorchop/Johnny Law 
On my Windows 10 machine, I didn't experience any Poorchop/Johnny Law mouse oddities.

Makes me wonder if maybe I could cause the issue somehow by installing maybe new Direct X drivers? I don't know.

If I can't experience an issue, makes it tough to guess. The mouse was fine for me.

If Mark V 1036 download link doesn't experience the mouse issue on Johnny Law/PoorChop's machine, I would suspect the issue relates to DirectInput which 1.99 switched to.

If that is the case, I could make DirectInput turn on and off and maybe default off. 
 
make DirectInput turn on and off and maybe default off.

I'm thinking that's probably the best option.

After playing Mark V and setting my sensitivity to an appropriate value to account for dinput, if I then use some other engine or a different version of Mark V, my sensitivity is way too high!

Here's another thought: If dinput is being used, automatically double the sensitivity value (rather, treat the value as doubled). That would probably get rid of the need for the Sensitivity slider to go up much higher to account for dinput being much less sensitive.

And if people wanna be more precise (even with the doubling happening behind the scenes), they can use decimal values, like sensitivity 10.5

But doubling the Sensitivity value for dinput would probably feel very close to the standard Sensitivity value when dinput is not being used. 
 
Bummer that you couldn't reproduce. I gave Mark V another few tries within the past few weeks and I had the same exact issues that Johnny Law spoke of - sometimes -mouse1 didn't register so I was firing indefinitely. Previously I just thought it was neither +mouse1 nor -mouse1 registering.

I'll spend some time playing around in 1036 to see if it works fine for me. 
 
I'm about to go camping, but I'll remember to get back to this later. 
 
Guys take your time, it's the summer. But yeah, if either of you can find out if 1036 does or doesn't have the issue, it can really shed some light on the nature of the issue. 
V1036 Works Just Fine 
I've tested long enough by now that I would've noticed if I was still having issues but I haven't had any problems with 1036. I spent a while bunny hopping and playing through maps, and all of my mouse clicks registered just fine.

On a side note, I am getting some pretty terrible performance outside of id1 maps but that's another issue. 
 
Thanks for info. Helps confirm thoughts on issue. 
@poorchop 
May I trouble you to test one more build ...

The 1080 build. download

And tell me if you have the mouse issue with 1080.

The results from 1080 should allow me to conclusively and quickly do a patch fixing exactly the "right" thing. (The alternative is some guesswork and if I am wrong it could take 3 attempts.)

I'd like to resolve the "Poorchop/Johnny Law Windows 10 mouse issue" right the first time. 
1080 
I played through some id1 and bunny hopped around for a long time, but I didn't notice any issues with mouse clicks registering. v1080 seems to be working fine here as well. 
@Poorchop 
Thanks! 
 
FWIW I just played through Amphitheater Of Abaddon using build 1080 and didn't notice any problems. 
 
(and that was me) 
1099_r4 
Defaults to gamma .75 I can confirm this as I've installed it into new directories 3x this week. I usually reset my config by hand BTW so it's defaulting for sure. 
@Baker 
Heads up that uwjam is performing pretty badly with this mod. Seems the sprites are causing significant framerate issues. I will test some more this evening but wanted to check with anyone else and see if they were experiencing issues.

I just played in QSS and did not experience the showdown. 
 
I haven't tested uwjam with Mark V but I've played a few other maps that have some frame rate issues despite running perfectly fine in other ports. Not really sure how to troubleshoot something like this though. 
 
The MarkV D3D9 sprite drawing code is particularly sensitive to high numbers of sprites and will suffer performance problems in those situations.

Basically it looks something like this:

for (int i = 0; i < numsprites; i++)
{
SetState ();
DrawSprite ();
UnSetState ();
}


In order to deal with D3D9's well-known draw call overhead problems, the D3D9 wrapper code attempts to concatenate multiple draw calls with the same state into a single draw call, so that the whole thing can run with fewer draw calls.

The MarkV code (inherited from FitzQuake, in turn inherited from GLQuake) prevents it from being able to do that, because making any state change will break a batch.

Changing it to something like this will help a lot:

SetState ();

for (int i = 0; i < numsprites; i++)
DrawSprite ();

UnSetState ();


By SetState and UnSetState I specifically mean the alpha test state here; the polygon offset state only happens with Hipnotic bullet-hole decals and should be rare enough, whereas texture changes are something that has to happen so that's a state change that you'll just swallow. But this change on it's own should go a long way towards fixing things up. 
@mh 
Added to the list. 
 
Recursion is hated in lowest-level coding -- when you look at what is going on at the stack level.

Recursion causes tons of unnecessary stack push/pop slowing down what would be faster loop mechanics inside a single function.

Elegance hates "goto". Yet "goto" dominates the world and well-written low-level code is code that the compiler can reduce to "goto" form avoiding the use of recursion.

/The D3D9 sprite handling is making me think about how to best optimize sprites next round to fit how D3D9 wants the data fed. 
 
This is just similar to the technique for making dynamic lights go fast - if you have a bunch of work to do, dividing it into fewer large batches will always outperform many smaller batches. Beyond that it's just a matter of understanding what patterns can prevent fewer large batches, and in any 3D API (including native OpenGL) that's going to be things like unnecessary state changes. Typically brought on by things that seem "right", such as unbinding textures/buffers, or putting state back the way it was after drawing an object.

The Quake code is riddled with small inefficiencies and it's death by 1000 cuts. None of this mattered in 1996 when GLQuake only ran on high end workstations, and everybody else had a 3DFX which routed it's drawing through a layer which tried to make something sensible out of it.

Ever bought a new GPU and found that Quake ran no faster on it?

Recursion is going to be down in the noise in any Q1 performance graph. Any decent compiler will automatically generate the right optimized tail-recursion code for you, without you needing to resort to tricksy or cutesy obfuscation. Don't waste time on the small beans.

In an ideal world that D3D9 code would not be needed; you could rip it out tomorrow and start investing time in making your OpenGL go fast, which IMO would be preferable to trying to make the 2 APIs coexist peacefully. The big secret is that Intel graphics are no longer crap, and haven't been for a long time. It's not Intel graphics, it's Quake's use of OpenGL that's crap.

As a general rule, bad OpenGL code will go faster than bad D3D code. But good D3D code will go faster than good OpenGL code. But in order to get good D3D code you need to go native and start writing code that's tailored to D3D's strengths; trying to translate bad GL code into something that tries to do the right thing in D3D can only get so far and will always throw up unexpected glitches and bottlenecks - like the sprites case. 
@mh 
I was thinking of qmb and to some extent Nehahra extra effects that are in the engine (above and beyond stock Quake sprites). qmb is highly recursed. 
 
Ah, I'm not familiar with the QMB code although I've been aware of the effects since almost the very beginning. That's something I must rectify. 
@mh 
I took a look at the real-time lighting prototype you made a few hours ago.

Looking at the source, I thought the dates were funny because you wrote it at the same time as the DX9 wrapper. 
 
How do I enable vsync and set color depth in Mark V? And for a Quakespasmer just coming around to Mark V, what are some of the notable differences between Mark V and QS, ie. what's the reason behind developing two separate engines that do a lot of the same things? 
Mark V Vs. QS 
vid_vsync 1 (I think away from PC)

Mark V in DirectX 9, has mouse driven menus (if you get used to it and go to QS - you'll miss it), levels menu item, demos menu item, you can fast forward demos, some developer tools and a "find" function in the console - which is handy.

Quakespasm has excellent performance and compatibility with mods etc is very good. But I prefer Mark V overall for the reasons above. 
 
Mark V does nehahra, whereas QS doesn't, correct me if I'm wrong 
 
Many of the MarkV features you speak of are not solely markV, but a culmination of other open source software.
Use what you like. But when you get down to brass tacks, gameplay, it's pretty much just Quake. 
 
MarkV Direct3D 9 doesn't allow changing of colour depth; it's hard-coded to the colour depth of your desktop. 
@mh 
Thanks. Mark V looks nicer on my machine (better colour depth, smoother gradients than QS) but as dumptruck_ds alluded to I have issues with performance. As a total package QS is tough to beat. 
 
how could the color depth be better than QS? Is it HDR? 
 
It should be identical unless the driver is doing some performance/quality tradeoffs behind the scenes. 
 
Black is a deeper black and fog gradates better in a map like honey for example. I thought it was my shitty monitor until I ran Mark V for the first time to play Nehahra. Performance was slower than QS (laggy mouselook) but it looked great. Too bad I can't show the difference. Could very well be my system which is getting up there in age but the two certainly don't look identical. 
 
Fog being different would make some sense, because the two different APIs can potentially have different fog calculations, with OpenGL's hint mechanism in particular being quite weakly specified: it's perfectly legal for GL_NICEST fog to give you per-vertex fog, for example.

In general however I would attribute this to your driver just giving a different image, as I said, likely via a performance/quality tradeoff. There's certainly no magic voodoo going on here. 
 
Ah yes, that pesky driver update that failed on three different occasions is fucking me in the ass, thanks for the insight... 
 
Hm. Baker... I found something you did and I don't like it :D

I was re-assigning some buttons so now I can use ALT to +attack (I was using the button on my trackpad with my thumb to +attack, but I've found it's less of a stretch -- physically -- to just hit the ALT key with my thumb instead).

So then I hit ALT + M to do a certain key combo that I occasionally use, and the console starts spitting this out at me:

Mute: ON --- ALT-M to Toggle
Mute: OFF --- ALT-M to Toggle

Sure enough, ALT + M puts Quake on Mute....

But I don't want that!

If you want a Mute feature, just make it a console command: "mute" and we can assign it to whatever key we choose.

As it is now, it's interfering with a key combo that I want to do something else....


Ya know, while I'm talking about ALT key combos, I remember suggesting in the past to allow key combos to be bound, so if I actually wanted ALT + M to do MUTE (if MUTE were a console command) I could do it like:

Bind @m mute

(if you made @ designate the ALT key combination)

Ah, on the Old Page #1352 I was thinking about "shift" keys for gamepad binding, but it could also work for keyboards. I suggested allowing any key to be designated at the "shifting" key for combinations....

Do any other Quake engines allow fancy binding of key combos?


Anyway, key combo binding is a "possible wishlist" kind of thing.

Whereas ALT+M = MUTE is a "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" kind of thing :D

And probably a "Only Gunter would discover that undocumented feature and take issue with it" kind of thing ;) 
 
Do any other Quake engines allow fancy binding of key combos?
FTE allows you to bind alt+m "echo ALT+M was pressed"
(ctrl+alt+shift modifiers and variations thereof are supported. Note that if you use a key as a modifier then you should probably not bind it to something else at the same time - it'll work, you'll just get unwanted binds.)

A workaround for DP would be to write some csqc that looks for modifier keys and then reconfigures DP's bindmaps, which isn't user friendly for multiple reasons. 
 
Yes, confirmed that MarkV has Alt-M hard-coded to toggling mute on/off.

Other hard-coded key combos:

Alt-Enter: switch between fullscreen and windows.

Alt-Tab: switch between different applications on the OS.

Ctrl-C: Copy.

Ctrl-V: Paste. 
 
That FTE functionality wold be something really (really) good to import.


I hadn't thought about those other hard-coded combos, since they are standardized Windows behaviors.... so they behave as most people would already expect.

I suppose you don't need to have CTRL+C and CTRL+V function when the console isn't down though. Those would be the only other combos I would think that might potentially interfere with something someone might bind. Few people are going to mess with the TAB or ENTER key, since they already have commonly-used functions in Quake (scoreboard and entering messages or menu navigation).


On the subject of Mute, if I use my media keys on my keyboard to change system volume or mute, it causes a little display window to pop up on screen notifying me of whatever I changed, and that causes Quake to minimize. I wonder if there's a way for Quake to ... not be forced to minimize in this situation.... 
 
Huh, well, I'm testing it again today and my media keys aren't forcing Quake to minimize.... Well, not consistently. The first time I tried it, Quake minimized but then it restored itself. After that (even after closing and restarting Quake) it doesn't minimize at all, and the overlay flickers in front or Quake for a moment.

So I don't know. It's inconsistent. Probably a Windows thing. 
 
On the subject of Copy/Paste, I guess even if the console isn't down, you'd want CTRL+V to function if someone was entering a chat message too.

I have often wanted to Copy test from the console, but you can only select text from the line you are currently typing on (by using shift + left/right), but that's never what I want to do. There should be some way to select text that has already been printed in the console, either with mouse select or by pressing shift+up to select previous console lines.

I end up having to use the "copy" command, which copies the entire console contents. 
How To Build On Linux Myself? 
Source code only contains project files for building on Windows. No makefile, cmake, etc. 
#2455 
There's a project file for codeblocks. 
In Futute Versions 
Would there be a way to have more that just three cycling autodemos? I test a lot of maps for newbs and like to use Mark V's cl_autodemo. But much of the time I die a lot! Which obv overwrites the dems.

I know I asked for the map name to be added before, I figured heck why not ask for this too. 
Weapon Animation Interpolation 
Hey guys!

Animations of Weapons and Super nailgun in particular still look choppy when firing, though these cvars are enabled :

r_lerpmodels "1"
r_lerpmove "1"

How to make 'em smooth like in DirectQ, for instance? 
 
Animations of Weapons and Super nailgun in particular still look choppy when firing ... How to make 'em smooth like in DirectQ, for instance?

This is a content issue.

FitzQuake (which both Quakespasm and MArkV are derived from) works around it in one way, DirectQ works around it in a different way, and both ways have their pros, cons and trade-offs.

First of all, the issue.

The Quake weapon models have polygons for the muzzle flash animation embedded in them, and when the gun fires the flash polygons are moved into the correct position.

When interpolation is switched on, what this causes is for these polygons to move with interpolation, which causes them to swim into view, and dance back-and-forth across the space between the nailgun barrels.

FitzQuake and derivatives work around this by temporarily switching off interpolation if the gun is in a muzzle flash state.

DirectQ works around it by measuring the delta between vertices in the two frames to be interpolated, and if the delta is sufficiently large (above some arbitrary value that was tweaked until it gave the correct result) assume a muzzle flash motion and don't lerp, on a per-vertex basis.

DirectQ used vertex shaders for everything so it could do this quickly and easily, and it really wasn't much more than an extension of the same kind of thinking as the "assume a teleport and don't lerp" check elsewhere in the engine. It should be obvious that this approach is vulnerable to both false positives and false negatives, however.

The correct way to fix this is new content. A set of weapon models that don't include the flash polygons, a separate generic muzzle-flash model, and the QC code to stitch them together.

Meanwhile, FitzQuake allowed disabling it's behaviour by setting r_lerpmodels to 2 - not sure if MarkV and QS do likewise. 
#2459 
Big thanks for an explanation MH !

"r_lerpmodels 2" works just as intended in Mark V either :)

I've actually wanted to ask you a DirectQ related question since 2013 but was unable to contact you.

You've probably been informed about "sinking into ground" bug that occurs after about an hour of playing in DirectQ. Most of the corpses around the map blow up and the player starts sinking into ground. The only way to solve an issue (temporarily) was to save a game, restart the engine and load it again. I've wondered since then, has there ever been a solution found for eleminating this nasty issue or not? As it is the only major problem I found while playing DirectQ. That source port satisfied me in every aspect of gameplay and gave a really nice old-fashioned feeling of quake experience.

I was running v1.9.0 
 
You've probably been informed about "sinking into ground" bug that occurs after about an hour of playing in DirectQ...

I fucked-up the physics code somewhere, but never was able to determine where. 
#2461 
Yeah... it's a pity.

Apart from that terrible bug, DirectQ is still great

:) 
@dumptruck_ds 
startdemos demo1 demo2 demo3 demo3 etc up to 32 demos
or edit your autoexec.cfg and add :

demos demo1 demo2 demo3 demo4 demo5 demo6 demo7 etc.. 
Oops! That's Not Right 
startdemos assigns the order demos is the console command to skip to the next one in sequence.
so just use startdemos either in the .cfg or console 
@R00k 
I wasn't too clear in my request.

Currently Mark V records 3 autodemos per session: autodemo_0, 1 & 2. If I die a 4th time (happens too often!) autodemo_0 will start from that point in the game, erasing my prior demos. What I'd like is to just keep recording demos 3, 4, 5 and so on.

And would love to have the demo be named the same as the mapname. So e1m3_0, e1m3_1 and so on. 
Anti-funky Weapon Interpolation Models 
@Andrew,

I have a set of view models that someone fixed to work better with interpolation, by hiding the muzzle flash under the gun between the frames where it should appear, so it don't look as weird when fully interpolated. This doesn't make it look perfect (there is still some small movements visible), but it is a definite improvement (most notably for the standard nailgun).

I have no idea where I got these.... I've had them for many years.

http://fvfonline.com/vmodels.zip


Uhh, to use those in Mark V, you'll have to make a mod folder and put them in a "progs" folder in there, and run that game folder (but then they'll only work when you run using that game folder), or go to the hassle of sticking them in an extra pak file to drop in your id1 folder so they will always be used... which I'm sure is what you want.

This is a overly-difficult because Baker doesn't have Mark V (like the other advanced Quake engines) give preference to user-inserted drop-in content outside of pak files. But it really should do that, for reasons such as this! ;) 
@dumptruck_ds 
Qrack has cl_autodemo which names demos automatically.
using mapname_date_time as the filename.
cl_autodemo 1 starts recording at mapload and stops at intermission.
Qrack also has bsp2 support with protocol 666 so it will load any map that markv can load.
http://quakeone.com/qrack if that helps for the time being 
@R00k 
Downloaded - will play with it for sure. Looks like you are still updating this regularly. I wasn't aware. 
 
let me know if there are any config issues i can
help you set it up. 
Dwere Did Some Really Nice Weapon Models 
#2466 
Thank you, mate :)

I will surely give it a try. 
 
MH wrote a nifty ‘hack’ to remove muzzle flash polygons
from the original models.
look for gl_clip_muzzleflash here in gl_mesh
https://github.com/sputnikutah/Qrack/blob/master/gl_mesh.c 
 
This hack, IIRC, is pretty much what I described above. It's a good few years ago so I don't remember details, but I'm pretty certain it uses the same logic. 
Quake Giblets: Mark V 
Enjoy! Feedback welcome. I can always do a sequel with more features.

https://youtu.be/dMOF3l2MtlI 
NE_Ruins (Custom Map) 
A terrible freeze occurs if I use "LAST WEAPON" command bound to MWHEELUP, especially when I picked up the Quad Super Shotgun (Looks like super shotgun from Quake 2). Once I use "bind "MWHEELUP" impulse 12" it freakin' freezes. Only task manager helps to shut the game.

Also Mark V shut down once I entered the bridge with Death Knights. 
NE_Ruins (Custom Map) 2 
It's impossible complete this one with Mark V.

I've solved an issue with a freeze glitch discribed above by setting the following cvar :

"sv_gameplayfix_no_impulse12_override" to "0"

but the enemy which uses yellow shield (some sort of a witch) around itself causes the engine to crash. Once it starts to use that kind of attack the engine instantly crashes.

An emergence of this bug was also tested with a default cfg to eliminate a suspicion that something is wrong with setup. 
Mark V Mouse Input Issues 
Hi guys! New to Mark V, but really enjoying it. The only problem is the mouse input issues that others have touched upon recently, and I have a few things to add:

1. My mouse1 button does tend to get stuck not firing or stuck continuously firingas mentioned before, however it doesn't just extend to mouse1:
-mouse2 also tends to have the problem sometimes in the rare circumstance I use it to scope in. It's difficult to recreate by accident but I can do it sometimes if I purposefully mash it.
-mouse4 and mouse5 also seem to be affected. I use them for next and previous weapon, and they often just don't respond at all.

2. These problems only happen in Mark V, like others have experienced. It cannot ever be recreated in any other game, application, or circumstance. It doesn't seem to matter which mouse I use, either.

3. The most interesting thing is the fact that this doesn't seem to affect other types of keys. I never experienced the issue once after remapping my left click to Ctrl in my mouse software. Furthermore, I had previously mapped the side buttons to 1 and 2 instead of mouse4 and mouse5 in my mouse software and until I changed it back to normal I had never had a problem with those buttons in Mark V.

4.It doesn't seem to be a Windows 10 only issue, as I'm running Windows 7.

Hopefully this can get fixed, because I am really enjoying this engine a lot otherwise. It's difficult to discuss issues like this online without others immediately blaming your mouse despite all the evidence to the contrary or just telling you to switch to another engine like Quakespasm :P 
Re: Post 2476 
Errr... that crash bug with the witch resurrecting fallen enemies in NE_Ruins was fixed years ago. I had reported the issue and delivered hints to fix the problem back then. Are you sure you are using a recent build for Mark V? If it's crashing with a new version, then the issue was accidentally reintroduced and requires fixing again. 
Post 2476 
I'm using v1.99 (Revision 4)

From the section "Download Windows .Zip"

"DirectX / GL / WinQuake''

It seems that this bug bug emerges on the newest version... 
Re: Post 2476 
Yay, that means that Baker must have reverted these fixes in one of his last updates. Try using a previous snapshot and see if it works with those. We need to find the build that broke it. 
 
Ne_Ruins was fixed back then in beta 14 of pre-v1.0:

http://quakeone.com/proquake/interims/mark_v_20150428_windows.zip

As you can see, that was back in 2015. The problem back then was "incorrect handling of entities with alpha=0" according to Baker. If he did anything in the meantime that undid this, it's clear why the crashes occur (again).

I am not sure if I had reported the impulse12 issue as well, but when I played Ne_Ruins with that beta build back then, I know I had zero crashes. 
Re Post 2481 
"Mark V - Version 1.99 - Revision 2 (Stable?)
#2092 posted by Baker on 2018/05/08 23:25:05"

Have just tried "Revision 2" from post #2092

Same issue, same occasion.

Game crashes 
Re: 2476 
You will probably need to go back further. It's possible it broke last year or even earlier again... I never checked it a second time after the fix since I assumed it would not break twice. Makes me wonder which of my reported issues are still solved. Gulp. 
Ne_Ruins Crash Reproduction 
So I have tried builds dating back to 1001 (Nov 21, 2016) and it still crashes. This needs investigation.

Please download this savegame for testing purposes (zipped, 66 KB) and copy it into your ne_ruins directory, then load it with F9 ingame.

How to reproduce the issue:
- Go around the corner
- Kill ONLY the Death Knights
- Let the succubus with wings alive and let it resurrect the Death Knights
- Stay in FOV of the succubus, crash will occur eventually

Sad that this problem returns to the stable builds. However, couldn't reproduce the impulse12 crash. I can go back and forth through my weapon inventory without issues. 
RE Ne_Ruins Crash Reproduction 
I have just checked it out following your instructions.
The crash occured immediatly right after the succubus started resurrecting those guys. Yeah, that's pretty inconvenient to have this stuff emerging in stable builds.

Concerning "impulse12" related crash. You gotta have super shotgun and quad super shotgun in your possession.
Try to scroll previous/last/next weapon with any button you assigned to execute that action. The game freezes then. 
Couple Of Things To Mention 
1) When I press "load game" then load the savegame and then press ESC button it shows me "load game" menu instead of Main Menu of Quake. That's a bit inconvinient because I usually accidentally press "Enter" button and load a save game while forgetting to save the game after updating my game progress thus it results in loading an old savegame :D
Is there an option to disable this kind of a "Remember last menu" feature ?

2) If you run across a nailgun ammo box while firing the nailgun - it stops firing for a half a second. Really strange. Same applies for Supernailgun. 
Ne_Ruins 
I think the impulse12 in Ne_ruins would need to be fixed within the mod. It wasn't made with impulse12 support and since that quad shotgun is an extra weapon, it causes problems. I believe s.o. actually made a patch for that, but I could be wrong. The succubus resurrection crash is definitely to blame on Mark V, though.

I also cannot run Ne_Ruins without assigning more memory to it via -heapsize 512000. Otherwise I get a crash right after leaving the intro map (Hunk_Alloc). 
One More Thing To Mention (#2486) 
At the introdution map of Quake, if you don't move your mouse and you go forward (move forward command) the player starts to look down at ladder a bit and if you go back (move back command) to the top the player centers his view back. If you move your mouse at the beginning - this behavior disappears.

Strange stuff, I think there must be a console command to disable such a behavior, but I can't find one. 
Some Questions 
When I go to multiplayer section of Dissolution Of Eternity (or any other mission pack) I don't see any maps of this expansion available for deathmatch or cooperative gameplay. There are only original Quake SP and DM maps displayed. Same for Scourge Of Armagon. Is there any way to make the maps displayed in multiplayer? Because it's impossible to play mission packs in coop or dm modes.

Is there any specific command line to enable creation of directories called "Save" and "Screenshots" inside a corresponding mod folder or main ID1 directory? It would be nice to have Mark V storing savegames and screenshots inside these particular folders. 
A Note To Baker 
You shouldn't remove this command since it is actually used. For example I change my refresh rate between my laptop and stationary PC. On laptop I'm running 60 hz and 100 hz on PC. So I use this - "vid_refreshrate" to set it up. 
Savegames 
It would be nice if Mark V had more than 20 save slots for savegames. 50-100 would be great.
Should be implemented :) 
Is It Sorta Trolling 
 
 
i dont think i have ever saved a game. then again quake is kinda easy by today's standards why do you need more points of continue from point another to during any one map? 
Save Slots 
One simple way to gain more save points is to simply use console command "save".

For example, you can easily type "save 111" in the console and save your progress up to that point in the save file named 111.sav.

Likewise, if you need more save points, simply type another name for the new save file.

Though I must admit that remembering all those save file names can be a hassle. I don't remember if MarkV still allows for "dir" command in console for listing the file names. 
Some Tests 
So I'm stuck with Windows 10, and I guess you are already aware of the audio problems. Having several second lag on all sounds, so havn't been able to work much with MarkV lately.

My most recent map uses a lot of new mdls some with alpha masking. MarkV can handle all except for one. There is a seahorse with masking on the wings and fullbrights intentionally painted on the stomach for glowing effect.

QS and QSS can render it properly:
https://i.imgur.com/IsHhNhI.png

But MarkV will display the fullbrights as solid black:
https://i.imgur.com/m936Lf6.png

Its a shame, as its the only one it won't handle.

Here's hoping that a fix comes along one day. 
Windows 10 Audio Latency 
 
Seems like MarkV is probably detecting palette index 255 as fullbright rather than as alpha. 
Who Cares If 
everybody's running qs

shitbler and its minions

_____

detecting or not detecting 
DirectQ/ QuakeSpasm Style Coloured Lighting 
Hi devs, i have 2 questions/requests:-

1) Is it possible to have a tweak(config) for the intensity of coloured lighting in Mark V to match that of DirectQ/ QS. The colour lighting in Mark V is not as intense and vibrant as it is other two ports. I am using lit and vis file from here:

https://quakewiki.org/wiki/External_Lit_And_Vis_Files

2) Is it possible to tweak settings to get DirectQ style coloured dynamic light effects without QMB effects. Maybe u can add another effect preset that matches DirectQ effects.

Although QMB effects are cool but they do feel out of place of 90's. But the coloured dynamic lights alone feel perfect. 
 
Is it possible to have a tweak(config) for the intensity of coloured lighting in Mark V to match that of DirectQ/ QS. The colour lighting in Mark V is not as intense and vibrant as it is other two ports.

The lighting in MarkV and QS should be identical; they both effectively use the same 2x modulate blend which is capped-off (and saturates to white) at double intensity.

There are areas in even stock ID1 maps where this is a significant factor.

DirectQ used a custom HDR texture format which required unpacking in pixel shader code, and which had neither capping nor saturation. The idea was to store some extra data in the (otherwise unused) alpha channel of lightmap textures to fill in the extra dynamic range. Typically you'd see examples storing an exponential or multiplicative factor in there; I put a division in because I tried everything else and that was what looked best (in the context of Quake lightmaps, that is).

In a fixed pipeline engine it would be possible to trade an extra bit of precision and do a 4x modulate, capping at quadruple intensity. That's actually OK because 4x in 8 bits still beats software Quake's 2x in 6 bits. However it would rule out support for single TMU cards (you could gracefully drop back to 2x via glBlendFunc (GL_ONE, GL_ONE) however, but the very first generation of consumer cards may not support that blend mode). Other texture formats such as RGB10A2 would also work well, assuming you were happy to set OpenGL 1.4 as a minimum requirement.

Personally I think these would be all reasonable tradeoffs - there comes a point at which continued support for dead hardware contributes a net negative - but I'm not the developer of Mark V. 
@mh 
I'm more a fan of e5bgr9, as it can also be used by a fixed-function pipeline (although requires a gl3ish gpu) without extra scalers, doesn't require any manual interpolation, still allows for up to 4000-fold overbright (ish), has higher precision than rgbx8, and uses the same ammount of gpu memory as rgbx8 (half as much as half-floats would). etc. If you're lazy you can just hardcode the exponent and get 4x overbright with the same precision as rgbx8 would get with 2x overbright. And if you're not lazy then you can get more precise dark areas alongside insanely bright areas.

does anyone still use a gpu older than gl3?.. 
 
I personally consider D3D11 to be entry level these days, it's a ~10-year old API. GL versions do lag for some vendors, however. GL3.2 is probably a reasonable minimum.

I find it better to do lightstyle animations on the GPU, and dynamics with extra additive blending passes. I've coded it up in GL1.5 assembly shaders, GL 2..4 GLSL, D3D9 HLSL and D3D11 HLSL for Q1, Q2 and H2 so I'm quite satisfied that the approach is solid. 
 
The difference in lit rendering between MarkV and QuakeSpasm, DirectQ could be the LightNormalize function which does:

lit = lit * (greyscale / max(lit.r, lit.g, lit.b));

so max(lit.r, lit.g, lit.b) needs to be equal to the greyscale value, or the final rendering will be different from engines that don't do this. If the lit files from https://quakewiki.org/wiki/External_Lit_And_Vis_Files don't have that property, this will be causing the difference you're seeing. 
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