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Modern Retro Shooters / Quake Spiritual Successors
Wonder If A Specific Retro-shooter Thread Is Warranted?
#10166 posted by Shambler [92.29.26.135] on 2017/08/27 11:32:00


It is! Separate thread because there's a lot of these sort of games, the ethos of them is particularly relevant to this board, and it's inhabitants seem to have some good varying opinions on the matter.

Quake as the eptiome as 90s action FPS:

Very direct control and physics
Simple streamlined gameplay
Brutal visceral and gory
Weird fantasy / gothic / industrial theme
Grungy, coherent graphics
Cool map designs / architecture (for the time)
Varied but consistent bestiary
Etc
(many of the above adhered to and greatly enhanced by subsequent custom content)

We all like these aspects, we all like these aspects in other games, we all want to see more of those games, possibly combined with modern graphical styles (Quake Chumpions MAPS might be an example of how far this could go) and maybe very limited modern additions (crouching? an inventory? coherent story? - but nothing that gets in the way of solid action). We perhaps want the next Quake / 90s action FPS spiritual successor...

Modern Retro Shooters:

...and lo, there's a neverending stream of modern retro games many of which are unabashedly marketting themselves as 90s action FPS spiritual successors and particularly highlighting speed, direct control, simple action, limitless violence. Do they have what it takes to hit that mark though??

Strafe
http://store.steampowered.com/app/442780/STRAFE_Millennium_Edition/

Amid Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7X7b6pPng

Dusk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsu9uDMlIMM

Hellbound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyabhVn1SfQ

Apocryph
http://store.steampowered.com/app/596240/Apocryph_an_oldschool_shooter/

Ion Maiden
https://twitter.com/voidpnt

Neverdead
http://store.steampowered.com/app/681000/NEVRDEAD/

Gorescript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpZ1Wa0OIoQ

Intrude
https://bagogames.com/intrude-review/

Hermodr
http://store.steampowered.com/app/490360/Hermodr/

Devil Daggers
http://store.steampowered.com/app/422970/Devil_Daggers/

Gibhard
http://www.gibhard.com

Revulsion
http://store.steampowered.com/app/719180/Revulsion/

Witchfire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zqjNkdXT94

PLUS MANY MORE LINKED IN THE THREAD BELOW....

Without wanting to opine too much, there seems to be a general trend of possibly not hitting the mark despite some attempts to do so, with a huge variety in how much potential those attempts show, as well as how close these games are to realising the overall harmonious game quality of a typical best 90s action FPS. I.e. Some games seem to do some aspects right, but don't seem to get all the aspects in balance and appealing together.

Discuss....
First | Previous | Next | Last
Double Posting 
Is FifthHeffalump#s biggest problem tbh. But he's beyond fixing (imo) 
Yikes 
No offense to your judgement, but the very reasons you have given for it looking "gorgeous", are mostly the same reasons - with the addition of the ass-awful saturated lighting - that it still looks like shit on a stick, where the stick is also made of shit.

You left out the part where I said "In motion, it works. It's a crisp and colorful thing. Limited video bitrate muddies that." That's the important bit. The idea being - it sounds unlikely, but when playing, these seemingly disparate parts come together nicely.

AMID EVIL is purposefully chaotic in it's use of color, and it works. It won't be everyone's jam. I love it. It's something else. It's ugly in the best way.

I will concede that Amid Evil does look functionally fine as an old skool shooter (apart from the appalling screenflash on damage which should never even be an option let alone default), but the lack of any graphical harmony is a NOPE from me.

The flashing is less obnoxious when playing versus watching. But I agree, it should be optional.

https://i.imgur.com/1yRosFa.jpg
wow

Ye boi. When I first saw that in-game, I thought something was rendering incorrectly. Turns out it's just an inelegant and ugly way to occlude enemy spawns.

Incidentally I just rewatched Apocryph inspired by your post and whilst it does look fairly dung - I am assuming it is a mere engine test, the lighting, textures, monsters, and theme harmony already look 2000% better than Amid Evil.

Yeah all the parts harmoniously appear hideous all at once! :p

Seriously, it looks like an asset flip. I'm not saying it is, but it has that vibe - cheap and uninspired. Apocryph is trying so hard (and failing) to be dark and gritty with zero sense of irony. Of course maybe that's what you appreciate about it. There is a certain kind of honesty about how thoroughly uncool it is. Heck, it may even wind up a charming little piece of EuroJank. 
One More Thing... 
Let it be known...

I find Darkplaces and HD texture packs disgusting. Now THAT is inconsistency! 
Too Many Anon Posts To Keep Track Of, Who Is Who?? 
Seriously, takes 2 secs to type in a name and chrome remembers it for next time. 
TBH, If They're As Well Thought Out As #204... 
...it's okay. It's still a bit annoying not knowing posting consistency etc, but, whatever, a thread contribution is a thread contribution.

Snide comments via anons, trolling or otherwise, are deleted. That IS something where posting consistency / history is required for context. 
#193 
Also, Kinn, the weapon "models" are sprites

and then you made them look indistinguishable from normal/diffuse/specular-mapped models from the mid-late 2000s...

https://youtu.be/b6d9PO3x30g 
BECAUSE NORMAL MAPPING OVER SPRITES IS COOL 
Seriously though, you can tell when playing the game. Videos fuzzy the effect.

For more hot normal-on-sprite action, I recommend BRIGADOR.

I can't defend AMID EVIL's visuals anymore. I've already admitted that it's UGLY IN THE BEST WAY. I mean, I DO have eyes guys. :p It's gaudy and garish and not for everyone.

---

ION Maiden is really coming along. A testing branch already has mouse movement feeling smooth and modern. Performance is better and the vsync issues are being investigated.

For anyone experiencing stutters at 144 fps, cap your frames at 120. The game loop updates at 30hz and interpolates at 120hz. If you don't have Gsync, you'll need to change your monitor's refresh rate to 120.

The update should be out soon. 
 
Amid Evil looks more interesting than Dusk for me. And Ion Maiden is fucking great.

Amid Evil's oversaturated effects seems to be a homage to the style of some old games, specially N64/Saturn/PS1 ones. Even if the game lacks visual harmony, at least it looks like the devs are putting effort into the art.

Being an independent developer sucks, specially if the team is just a couple of guys. Either the gameplay, the level design, the sound fx, the voice acting, the music, the models, the sprites, the textures, the animations, the visual effects, or something else will suck. Most likely, several of these aspects at once. But if the developer is openly honest about his limitations, some flaws can be forgiven.

What bothers me the most in many pseudo retro games are misleading advertisement, developers who doesn't tolerate criticism, and developers who uses "stylistic choices" as an excuse to lazy out on some aspects of the game. A lazy style is still lazy, despite being a style. 
Well. 
Deliberately gaudy and garish, as much as I want to keep slagging it off, at this point I can just say "fair enough". If it's a deliberate choice then although I think the effect is ass (and not the sort of ass that appeals to me), then I can see what they are getting at. I guess I find it a bit of a pity personally because the level design and gameplay functionality does actually have some appeal, unlike many other of these games, and with different GFX style could be a winner. Oh well. 
And On The Subject Of Anons. 
If I see another post by FoldingChable, then I'll remember "oh that was the dude that was talking some sense about AE even if I disagreed". That context is useful. 
 
Nah dude its great having lengthy discussions of opinions with multiple anons and having to use random ass context clues to determine which anon is which so as not to confuse "anon thats a total fucking bellend" with "anon thats actually kind of reasonable" 
 
ion maiden seems great. played the demo and it looks better than I expected. I hope they will be able to finish the game

Also be aware that the game is going to run like shit on older computers 
 
It's curious to see Ion Maiden being labeled as a "spiritual sequel to Duke Nukem 3D". The art style is substantially different, in that while DN3D used prerendered CGI assets (All characters, cutscenes, title & intermission screens, etc), IM uses hand-drawn art.

IM's art managed to be of such high quality, that people don't notice how fundamentally different from the DN3D style it is. Ion Maiden is not simply rehashing old approaches. 
Copy Paste Of A Post On Another Forum Re: Amid Evil 
So now that the Early Access version is out, I can talk a bit about Amid Evil. I played a test branch of the Early Access version a week or so ago. I've always been critical of the visual style of the game (didn't really like the color usage that much) and thought the game looked garish and not that great. I got a key because of a semi-rant on Twitter about it, and promptly booted the game to see for myself.
Honestly, the videos really don't do the game justice because a whole lot of detail is lost to video compression. The game looks pretty good in motion, especially the third episode that reminded me of the first Tomb Raider a lot. My only problem with color is found in early Episode 1, the rest of the game looks good for the most part, with some great style at times (E1M2 comes to mind, this map is a real beast and one I wish I had made cause it's brilliant at times). The weapon viewmodels are apparently lightmapped sprites, which is pretty amazing considering how good they look.

The level design ranges from good to very good. There was not a single bad level in the version I played. E1M1 is very tame/simple but things get serious as soon as E1M2, which is very open and has vertical layers serpenting around. The game uses very little enclosed, Painkiller-like arenas which is very welcome. The third Episode has a lot of exploration gameplay too which I liked a lot (especially in E3M1). The Episodes only have three main levels and one boss each, but there are 7 Episodes planned total, each with its own style.

The game itself is a lot of fun. All the weapons are great to use and pack a punch. Even the base axe feels very powerful. My favorite weapons are the trident thing and the Mace of Torment which I find extremely fun. The weapons have an alternative, even more powerful attack once you gain enough souls from fallen enemies. It acts exactly as the Tome of Power from Heretic/Hexen, but I find it more interesting in Amid Evil since you actually have to fight to trigger it a vast majority of the time (and you can chain it with greater soul pickups). In the version I played the enemies didn't bleed much and had almost no pain frames; I wonder if that was changed because it was a bit distracting and it was hard to tell whether I was actually hurting them at times.

Overall, Amid Evil is a cool game. It doesn't try to reinvent the wheel but it's a solid Heretic-like in some aspects. It runs well, has cool level design, great weaponry and feels good to play. 
 
Yeah, YouTube compression can completely ruin some visual styles, and is way too influential on the public impression. 
Skacky = Shill 100% Confirmed. 
j/k etc etc etc. Good post. 
#158 
It looks like Hellscreen won't be funded. Less than 3 days left, and not even 20% funding achieved.

Despite the campaign mentioning classic FPS level design, the lack of any actual classic FPS level design in the videos gives an impression that despite wanting to do it, the developer doesn't know how to do it.

It's a shame, as the visual style and the artwork are fantastic, and the music is great. 
 
#222 
Shitty review. If people are going to criticize devs for not following earlier designs, they should also bash the devs of the original Doom for trashing Tom Hall's design of it. 
@mankrip 
Let's bash quake because it doesn't have an axe-ogre who pisses on dead bodies =D

https://www.quaddicted.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=100 
TBH... 
...that is one of the few genuine flaws with Quake. 
Steam Direct Was A Mistake 
 
Born To Be Wild Ripoff 
 
Hellbound Arena Pre-Pre-Pre-Alpha Test. 
Got generously donated a spare key for this. It is what you see in the video previously posted. One extremely simple arena with waves of enemies.

Even given those limits it is fairly flawed: disco lighting, terrible music, fairly homogenous humanoid enemies (apart from some ugly demons), a bit heavy on the hitscan enemies, and jumping feels a bit weird and abrupt. Basically feels like a Q3A mod test.

On the other hand, at it's core, it does do some crucial things right: Movement is pleasingly slick and precise, weapons feel good and meaty and distinct, and the graphical quality, if not it's execution, is totally good.

I'd say it's tentatively worth keeping an eye on, if they add a full game and better bestiary to this, and a stronger, deeper theme, it could well work. 
 
Apparently Midair (Tribes-style shooter) is going free today, anyone have experience with it? Not exactly a Quake/arena shooter style game but Starseige: Tribes dates to '98 so it sort of counts? Maybe? 
 
I have a key for it so I'll dip into it at some point. 
 
Update on Midair: tried it today, feels really damn clunky menu-wise, also seems to enjoy randomly reverting, deleting or re-locking loadout and inventory options (without refunding the in-game points needed to unlock them). Movement is really damn stiff especially if the last Tribes you played was Ascend- apparently this is a good thing, so sez the Old Timey Tribals, but I'm not a huge fan of the thrust vectoring jetpack system and the lack of natural air control at all feels gross. Uninstalled after it locked out shit I'd just unlocked without giving me the ingame credits back for it. 
So 
no Romero´s Blackroom in-game footage yet? next Daikatana? 
The Most Gaseous Of Vapourware. 
 
@Shambler 
@Shambler 
 
Haha, the part where the dev talks about other good retro/indie titles and shows footage of Strafe, Dusk, etc. 
#237 
The "Level Design" section of their description is the best. 
 
He made a 2D version of Doom? When Doom already is 2D... 
 
Watched the Hellbound kickstarter video now.
Seriously, if a developer has a thick foreign accent, he shouldn't try to talk in a video explaining the game. Not without subtitles.

The weakest point of the Hellbound kickstarter is the same of the Hellscreen kickstarter: No classic level design at all. The Hellscreen kickstarter at least claimed to want to have classic level design (without any proof of concept), but the Hellbound kickstarter doesn't even acknowledge anything about level design; only about environment art. And none of the team members is a level designer.

Which is a bit of a shame, as the art and the music are great. 
 
Art looks great if only they created an actual level for it rather than a shitty survival chunk of dirt surrounded by a lava map. 
Makrip 
i guess its the only guy in the team that can speak in English well enough for that. And that is no accent, is what happens when you aren't accustomed to speak in English. I heard people saying that its like a vampire talking, but never understood it neither never heard that vampires talked in a different way.

It loks like they don't intend to make levels and only if they are very successful with the campaign, so this will be like Devil Daggers with more money on the graphics and Serious Sam style instead of a creepy one. 
 
And that is no accent, is what happens when you aren't accustomed to speak in English.

I'm not a native English speaker either, and I never actually talk in English. What happens when I try are tons of mistakes, a very limited vocabulary and an extremely irregular rhythm with some words taking very long to come out. It's like I suddenly become mentally disabled.

The main challenges for people who writes in English but don't talk in English are to remember every word, every sound that they make and every vocal muscle movement (chords, lips, tongue, etc.) needed to speak those words. And to remember all of it in realtime.

The guy in the video doesn't have trouble with that. But it's very difficult for me to understand all he says. 
 
Played the demo of Ion Maiden. Like any other recent Doom/Build mod with tons of graphical effects etc. it's not gonna run "efficiently", but aside from that it is extremely legit stuff. 
Apocryph Gameplay 
Uhuh. 
Even skipping through that was painful. 
Apocryph Video 
Find funny how the guy gets all fired up so much, even when nothing happens.

The layout is the same simplistic thing as the one i played some months ago and doesn't look like there is big changes, save for the motion blur that prevented from strafing that looks like is fortunately out now.

If the motion blur is definitely out this could be good if they got a level designer. 
Damn That's Terrible 
The level designers definitely didn't do a block-out first. 
Prodeus 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwHRPVrZVgM

seems more doom-like than quake-like but i saw a little bit of 3d/jumping in there. 
Prodeus 
Not sure what the design goal of the game is... basically looks like Doom 3 with the resolution of Doom 1. 
Prodeus 
I don't like the hud overlay but the pixel rendering of 3d objects adds a bit of a gritty feel to me. I like it. 
Typical Bullshit. 
" It reaches the quality you expect from a AAA experience while adhering to some of the aesthetic technical limits of older hardware."

Funnily enough you useless mis-guided cocksuckers, "aesthetic technical limits" were in no way what made old skool games great, they were a necessary evil to put up because they were just fucking limits. 
That's Debatable 
One could argue that the limits imposed by old tech forced developers to focus on other things than visuals, and also allowed for faster production cycles.
Example in our context, the time it takes to make a Quake map, vs the time it takes to make a level in some modern game. 
That's 
An incidental silver lining benefit, not a fundamental positive to having lower quality graphics. 
Li'l Bit Of This, Li'l Bit Of That 
(^ "bit" in the title is also said Cockney glottal-stop style)

It's actually very complicated with lots of variables jostling with each other. E.g. crunchy software quake at low resolution looks amazing and immersive and strangely rich with detail for some reason, but those exact same environments in smooth GL on a modern monitor look like bland, barren shite. You're no longer squinting at it and your mind doesn't have to fill in the details, and the magic is gone.

Other things: tools were primitive which probably hampered asset creation times substantially compared to what we can do now with all our spanky new Trenchcoats and Mayos and whatnot. 
I Disagree 
Many games, even some modern ones with big budgets, choose a specific quality of visuals with this in mind.
Biggest example recently that comes to mind is the latest Zelda game, where they tried to go more realistic but realized how much extra work it meant to look right, so decided for a simpler more stylized look.

To me one of the big reasons I love Quake is it's low-fidelity, and what that means for gameplay and extra content creation. 
For Clarity 
Previous post was in reply to Shambler not Kinn. 
 
But yeah, many of the things we love about 90s FPS level design - multiroute, exploration, secrets, optional bits etc - exist because you could afford to make them back then. With the cost of real estate in modern FPS, the optional bits are the first to get binned when production reality kicks in.

Things seem to be improving again, I think we're over the worst of the "linear" era and developers are making more of an effort in this regard, but certainly post 90s there was a long stagnation period when all FPS releases were little more than on-rails games. 
Just Watched The Trailer 
Yeah, WTF.

So they've made an FPS that looks like it came from the mid-2000s, then stuck it in a screen resolution that comes from the mid 1990s.

I've seen enough of these sorts of indie developers to think that maybe we should just gather them all up, dump them on some remote, isolated tropical island somewhere, and just let them make all these incongruous eyesore games amongst themselves, well away from the rest of us, and then meanwhile in the world of normal people with actual taste, we can all eventually, in time, just pretend that these awful things don't exist. 
And There We Go. 
Thread conclusively answered. 
 
I thought the main reason that old maps had so many different routes was because they also had to function as deathmatch maps. 
So Any More Thoughts On These. 
The big hope, apart from maybe Witchfire which I'm worried might have a great theme and gameplay that is the worst of Painkiller meets the worst of Bulletstorm, is of course the semi-home-grown (i.e. half of terrafusion is working on it) 3DKillpixelRealms "#RetroFPS #PixelShooter #indie #blocktober #PartyLikeIts1996 #quakekiller #lowpixel #RetroPoly #pixelpoly #polypixel #QuakeLikeQuakeDidIt #pixel #ALLTHEPOLYGONS #8bitIndieDev #tastethegiblets #oldskoolpixeltretropoly"

But any more to consider....?? 
 
Ion Maiden still looks pretty sick. Haven't played the most recent demo level though. 
Seems To Be The Main Success So Far. 
A few people have been raving about Amid Evil but the presentation just ....doesn;t do it for me. 
Fake Retro Graphics Are Disgusting 
Amid Evil's art design is the most confused and dishonest rubbish I've ever seen. Never have I seen a more ridiculous 'retro' style.
If you're going to emulate a retro style then do it consistently. Dusk might have looked like bargain bin rubbish from 1996 but its at least consistent with its ugliness.

Just look at this shit
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/S25Js28nX55W2wr7nxNtSL.jpg
https://images.gamewatcherstatic.com/image/file/0/19/88490/673130_20171011213244_1.png

The weapons aren't models they're sprites, but they're lit with modern PBR shading and it looks weird as hell. They're high resolution enough that you don't even notice that they're sprites so its a complete waste of time anyway.
What makes it even worse is that the enemies are all 3D but their polycount and texture resolution is tiny by comparison to the weapons and they don't have the pbr shading that everything else does.
The levels look like romhacks of Mario 64 bashed together in sketchup and are lit with such garish colours and noisy textures that it makes the PBR shading all the more tasteless with tiny bright specular highlights everywhere
Then there's the particle effects which are in such abundance. The particles aren't even consistent with each other, some have 1bit alphas while others are blended and the blood particles don't match the decals they leave.
And then there's dithering on the water.
Its all so jarring its laughable.

Whoever is responsible for this absolute mess of an art direction should be ashamed.
You don't even have the excuse that Prodeus does by having a cool technical gimmick like having enemies be rendered as spites through a shader.

And RockPaperShotgun is sucking its cock because of course they are.
Anything with polygons and pretensions towards being 'retro' is a new Quake to those hacks 
 
Jean Baudrillard had a theory of "simulacra" - a copy of a copy of a copy, something that purports to represent reality but is in fact a perversion of an already distorted view of reality. Most of these "retro-style" developers seem to be creating simulacra.

Dusk is cool though. 
Hello Dave Oshry 
 
#27 
Chill out bruv, this ain't TTLG or NMA. 
 
Like, two sixty seven. My 'six' key has gone to shit. 
 
Dusk does also have a fake "retro" look. Its abundant alpha blending, colored lighting and fog looks nothing like the games it pretends to be inspired on (Doom, Quake and Build engine games).

The retro game whose vfx looks the closest to the ones in Dusk is Quake III Arena. The explosions, the alpha blended blood in the air, the fog, the colored lighting, etc. But Q3A uses texture filtering and has a way higher polycount, because it's not pretending to be a PS1 game.

The "low res" option in Dusk makes it look even more fake. Not true retro. Dusk's visual style is based on guesswork, not on actual research.

Dusk is not a retro-looking game, but anyway, it does look fun. And so does Amid Evil.

The blood splatters on the ground in Amid Evil seems to be using additive blending, not 8-bit alpha. Which is why they look a lot brighter than they should, and it does look bad indeed.
And I agree that the high-res weapons and the low-res enemies looks weird together. 
Dusk 
Dusk is really fun, the movement feels great and, maybe most important, the levels are fun to explore. I'm looking forward to Ion Maiden, too.
I don't really care whether these games are more or less faithful. I just want new shooters that 1) place an emphasis on interesting level design, and 2) run on my potato.
I do see, though, where the anger is coming from. The Quake scene has been churning out entire games-worth of material for years and years without any notice and then these games come out of nowhere in the last year or two and everyone acts like they're the first to discover the 90s. 
 
I do see, though, where the anger is coming from. The Quake scene has been churning out entire games-worth of material for years and years without any notice and then these games come out of nowhere in the last year or two and everyone acts like they're the first to discover the 90s.

It's about the presentation and the interface. To the average joe you need a phD in computer science to find and install a decent quake engine, get a mod running, get the map loaded blah blah blah.

There is no "double click this and you are in the game". There is no map/mod browser from inside Quake's UI. It's just a private club for private people.

That is why the quake scene has been invisible to the general public, and why any old shit with a simple point of entry is going to leapfrog quake so hard it's almost funny. 
 
Yeah I know that's not the whole story, and media-friendly marketing is also a big part of it, but you need a few different things all working together and the accessibility stuff I mentioned IS an essential ingredient. 
We Need Influencers Taking Quelfies ? 
 
 
We Need Influencers Taking Quelfies ?

No, and I hate social media wankers just as much as the next guy, but to be honest when that shite is an integral part to gathering a wide playerbase, I don't think it should come as a surprise when "90s Retro Shovelware Simulator #714" shits all over the custom quake scene in the public awareness department. 
By The Way 
Just to clarify - i'm not suggesting for a single second that custom quake's relative obscurity next to a recent commercial product is a problem in any way, nor am I suggesting any of us should give a toss about it (I certainly don't give a badger's bollock), but again this is just an extended reply to post #273. 
But. 
It WILL come as a surprise when "90s Retro Shovelware Simulator #714" shits all over the custom quake scene in actual quality. 
 
So I understand we need to create a room with old Pentium 90's with CRT running demos in Quake Software and some good lighting for a perfect "Quake Gamefeel Quelfie experience" room and charge a fee for entry.
...
and never let them back out of that room. 
#280 
Quake's gamma brightness actually looks a lot better on CRT monitors.

Considering how many people uses very bright gamma settings, which makes their maps nearly unplayable on gamma 1.0, CRT monitors would help. Bright gamma looks washed out on modern monitors. 
 
I'm playing Dusk and I LOVE IT! 
 
more interesting than most of these shitty retro FPS (so far) -
is there a filter/shader to correct/reproduce more faithfully the tuned on CRT Quake engine Gamma on LCDs ?
Or do some of the ports already do this and I am not noticing ?

CRT is cool and all, I'd love to find a large pro CRT monitor from back then someday but until such a find... 
I Don't Understand Dusk 
It looks like the work of a single amateur indie developer done in his spare time (of which I would respect a lot more), but instead it is made by a team of paid people working full-time? I don't get it. Did they all just settle for Sonic-fast movement and call it a day? There is nothing about that game that appeals to me.

Meanwhile Prodeus is looking good (mostly because I like the Doom 3-aesthetics of the levels):

http://www.prodeusgame.com/website/index.php 
It Looks Like Someone Just Added Pixels To Doom3. 
Which strikes me as somewhat incredibly pointless. 
Ah The Nostalgia... 
...of running Doom 3 at lowest settings while wearing ski goggles. Bizarre.

Looks like they’re rendering enemies in 3d, and then converting them to sprites in real time, which could have been so cool if they attempted more of a “sprite” aesthetic. Like a bit of toon shading, stylised look, some post processing colour work to make them stand out from the background and make them look hand painted and easy to discern from a distance, but at the same time they’d rotate smoothly and you’d be able to do rag dolls, IK, and be affected by environment lighting. Imagine that style with the doom enemies! You could try and get the original sculpts to use as models too. Sadly here they did none of that and it looks like trash. 
From The Website: 
It reaches the quality you expect from a AAA experience while adhering to some of the aesthetic technical limits of older hardware.

...but not any combination of "aesthetic technical limits" that make any sense whatsoever.

I had a bit of a whinge earlier about how nonsensical it is to do circa 2005 visuals, and then view them through a pixel mosaic filter.

I wonder if it has 30,000-poly zbrushed monsters with PBR materials but which only animate at 10 frames a second? that would look sweeeeeettt - mix the old with the new baby! 
 
It reaches the quality you expect from a AAA experience while adhering to some of the aesthetic technical limits of older hardware.

Shame as this could be fun. Uncharted 4 but with tomb raider 2 graphics, Witcher 3 in the Daggerfall engine. That's the sort of thing I think of - not Doom 3 in the Doom 3 engine, but lower resolution. 
Aesthetic Technical Limits Of Older Hardware. 
Is basically horseshit, straight out of the horse's arse.

It's basically like being a fan of 1920s ballroom music and then making a lo-fidelity stuttering crackle'n'pop lossless FLAC of ballroom music, claiming that what made that era great was not the passion, melody, groove, and integrity of the music, but all the unavoidable shit quality recording of that music due to limits of that time. And then doing a fucking half-arsed job of sort of recreating the music, but putting a lot more effort into recreating the shit quality recording.

Devs, repeat after me until you get it into your stupid thick skulls:

WHAT MADE SOME RETRO GAMES GREAT WERE THE POSITIVE QUALITIES OF THOSE GAMES (directness, simplicitiy, player controls, imagination, themes, atmosphere, action, violence, creativity), NOT UNAVOIDABLE TECHNICAL LIMITS THAT GOT IN THE WAY OF THOSE QUALITIES. 
Creativity Can Be Quantified 
Give it time and you'll have algorithms that can far surpass anything any human can do creatively. 
Furthermore 
Sure there are lots of small devs attempting modern retro shooters who lack the resources to go far beyond the limits of older tech. Totally fair enough. But it's just as important to focus on those positive qualities of older FPSes and do a really good job within that genre and within those limits, rather than using those limits as an excuse to churn out shit "Hey this is old-fashioned and out-dated, that's our USP". Nope, all the nope. 
 
An artificially low resolution can work as a deliberate art style, IF and I think only if, the underlying graphics are low fidelity and would gain nothing from being seen in a higher resolution.

Take vanilla quake, and start with a modern screen resolution, then try lowering it, and keep lowering it, until you reach a point where the ability to read the scene really suffers if you go any lower.

Take Doom 3, and do the same exercise. You will find you can't go as low as you can with quake.

It seems the people doing this Probeus thing haven't quite grasped this incredibly advanced concept. 
#284 
Dusk was made by one person. 
 
And it is fun (if occasionally eyeball-hurting). 
 
I'd rather move at a hedgehog's pace in HeXen II. 
I Know You're A Troll But 
Hexen 2 aged poorly because of its obtuse and tedious level design...

Therefore I fully expect one of these "retro fps" games to come out that perfectly mimics this obtuse and tedious level design, just because the developers think that's the sort of thing retro gamers cherish and is something to be celebrated...

:ponkie: 
 
i started playing dusk yesterday...

and... i'm afraid to say, but...

right now i love more dusk than quake

(i'm feeling like a traitor... please don't block my account) 
Tribal You Are A Disgusting Human Being :P 
 
 
I'm glad I don't understand Dusk, but it costs money? Apex Legends and Fortnite are free, so is also CS:GO and a few other games now with a lot higher production quality overall. Why pay for an inferior product just because you fell for the hype? Yes, I hate CS:GO and I don't play Fortnite but I can't hate on them for being free to play because at least they are honest about being worthless.

Come on, I just want to read you defend purchasing Dusk so I can feel smug sbout myself for choosing not to waste time and money on it. 
 
No thanks. 
Of All The Games I've Played (and I Played A Lot!)... 
Quake1 is the ultimest best game EVER, despite its old graphics, period!

I keep playing this gem years after years, since what, 20 years!? All the rest sucks in comparison. 
#301 
Quake nowadays is not Quake in 1996. Playing community content is not the same thing as playing what id Software released.

I usually play the first half of episode 1 sometimes, as well as the first map of the other episodes, but I doubt anyone regularly plays the full game anymore.

Saying "best game EVER", "all the rest sucks" is easy when comparing community content in Quake against the base content of other old games. Without the community content, there are better games out there. 
#302 
I fully agree. I was implicitely talking about Quake1 as it is today and about all the great maps that were done for it. Quake1 kept evolving, year after year, and this is why no other game can compares. 
 
I actually play the original episodes quite often as a quick stress free romp. Whenever I download a new custom map the perfectionist in me demands me to fully evaluate everything the map has to offer, so I can give it a fair and useful review here and/or Quaddicted.

Sometimes I enjoy the reviewing part but often, when I just want to unwind with some Quake without having to think and contribute, I play an episode or two, sometimes even blitz through the whole game. 
Dear Shammie Cumgogglies... 
"WHAT MADE SOME RETRO GAMES GREAT WERE THE POSITIVE QUALITIES OF THOSE GAMES (directness, simplicitiy, player controls, imagination, themes, atmosphere, action, violence, creativity), NOT UNAVOIDABLE TECHNICAL LIMITS THAT GOT IN THE WAY OF THOSE QUALITIES."

The bit after the "NOT" got us more of the bit before the "NOT"


You could only go so far with the glowy cumgoggle stuff, which due to limited options limited the manpower worth throwing at it, which left more resources to focus on what would differentiate and sell the game: "gamefeel"

And for atmosphere etc the limits are nothing to talented artists, as demonstrated by golden oldies that hold up perfectly well today in that department, even though they lack cumgoggle filters. 
IMO 
A retro-styled shooter should, on the basis, have similar design elements from 90's shooters before Half Life, even if the graphics are high-end.

On the topic of low-poly graphics, I agree there's a big misunderstanding amongst the makers of those retro-styled FPSes. While it was indeed at the time because of technical limitations, I believe low-poly graphics can still be used to do pretty things, but not the Dusk kind.

What the minimum threshold should be IMO is Quake 2 as far as polycount go. Characters and monsters have curves, and some details (which is then reinforced by texture work). Anything below that looks like papercraft.
As for environment? I believe the best custom Quake maps in the past few years has elevated the standart, and is something that should be followed if a retro-FPS is made.
Unreal 1 and Tournament should also be a good inspiration for what to achieve in that regard. 
 
No particular game deserves to be held up as the aesthetic "template" for retro-shooters. It's more about aesthetic consistency. I think it's just as fine to aim for a Classic Doom look, as it is a Quake 3 look. The number of goons you can rope into helping you make this thing is also going to dictate the level of detail you can afford to make in a realistic time.

It's about making all the elements fit in with each other. Wolf3D environments mixed in with 10,000 polygon character models is, as the kids say, "retarded". 
 
I'm a big fan of low poly art, I think its a genuine artistic challenge that often results in a brilliant aesthetic if done well. Polycount's low poly threads were filled with fantastic work (image hosting is shaky and most images are lost now) and you have games like Devil Daggers that pull it off and look fantastic.
However lots of retro throwbacks just don't look good. Part of that is that they don't match any specific era or tech but the biggest problem is that they're just not artistically well done.

Prodeus has a strange aesthetic but the models rendered as sprites is pretty cool as far as tech gimmicks go. However the lighting and shading makes everything hard to see, it kind of turns everything into a speckled mess with all of the specular highlights everywhere. The particles are also excessive and obscure so much.
It kind of kills the biggest strength of sprites, that is visual clarity
Also why on god's earth is it doing the 'bloody screen, so real' garbage? I thought we got over that years ago. 
#284 
"It looks like the work of a single amateur indie developer done in his spare time (of which I would respect a lot more), but instead it is made by a team of paid people working full-time?"

I'm pretty sure that it was only a couple of devs, mostly Dave Oshry, that made the game. 
Dave Oshry Is Only A Dork Roper. 
It worked for ROTT and STRAFE 
 
David Szymanski 
#301, 302 
"I keep playing this gem years after years, since what, 20 years!? All the rest sucks in comparison."

"Quake1 kept evolving, year after year, and this is why no other game can compares."

Well the same can be said for several other older games I could name, Doom and Thief among my favorites right up there with Quake. Honestly this is why old PC games that are relatively easy to modify/make new content for is my favorite type of game. There's just a practically endless stream of new stuff that ends up pushing the game aesthetically and technically beyond what it is out of the box, and you can also get people who deeply understand the game mechanics who will keep pushing the skill ceiling higher and higher, or just people doing their own oddball thing. You can probably see more of the latter two facets in Doom (just because it's a bigger scene), but it's still found in Quake and I love it. Even people doing more "average" maps show their own personality. Honestly at this point I almost feel like any action game that can't be modified in this way (or that can, but happens to be prohibitively time-consuming or difficult to do so) is just wasted potential. 
DUSK 
developed by david szymanski, funded by dave oshry 
Soooooo...... 
Blackroom.

Remember that one? Romero's comeback shooter that failed to meet its kickstarter target but supposedly carried on development.

Radio silence now though.... 
Too Busy Making Sigil Instead. 
 
When Is Sigil? 
Soon™? 
 
Ion Maiden and Amid Evil. Period. The rest are meh. 
IS THIS THE SAVIOUR OF MODERN RETRO?? 
Ah Man 
looks great overall. Real nice consistent aesthetic, genuinely feels like a 90s shooter. Some fun environments too, in particular i'm big fan of the trees. Texture work is great. It's like Unreal meets Quake!

If I was going to nitpick, I don't love that zombie enemy, or the box art. I think the latter looks a bit generic and not amazingly executed. Although generic 90s shooter might be the vibe you were going for! I also find the name hard to remember, although i'm aware this is not constructive feedback at this late stage! 
 
I have no doubt that the level design in Wrath will be awesome! Congratulations, guys! =D

But i'm also excited about the new enemies and the weapons =D

I'm feeling like a teenager again, waiting for a quake missionpack

I'm already in love <3 
WRAKE: CREAM OF AIOLI 
IS THIS THE SAVIOUR OF MODERN RETRO??

Most probably.

A) It has actual levels made by actual people who have also made actual levels in the past. For an actual game (quake).

B) Visually, it looks aesthetically harmonious, appealing, and actually like a 90s (ish) shooter! Bugger me.

Those two points already put it in front of the pack, and although I haven't seen enough of the gameplay to pass judgement on that, I certainly haven't seen anything obviously bad about the gameplay.

(PS: weapon sounds are too loud tho) 
 
Here is 11 minutes of gameplay:

https://www.ign.com/videos/2019/03/07/11-minutes-of-wrath-aeon-of-ruin-gameplay

oh, man... i don't know about the other maps, but this one have that horror/Blood feeling that i love so much <3

And we can dismember zombis (like in Chasm), and kill them with the double-shotgun \o/

Also the weapon's sound design is perfect.

I REALLY hyped for this one 
Glad You Guys Are Digging It 
keep in mind: it's all early stuff and the level is a demo of sorts for journalists and such ;) 
 
Is that game using Darkplaces or i'm going crazy? 
 
You're not crazy. 
 
Wow, looks fantastic. The models, sound design, & gunplay are so much better than any recent "retro-style" FPS. 
 
Amazing. Never knew Darkplaces could look that good. Is it using https://github.com/hgstratmann/retro_quake1? 
 
 
My four nipples are hard. 
Want Now Pls 
Thank You 
#326- Seriously?? ... Is WRATH Using DP And Not QS? 
The very nice news:

• Create your own worlds. WRATH is built from the ground up to be easily moddable. Make your own levels, weapons and characters. From day one, the very tools used to create WRATH will be available for all.

See: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1000410/WRATH_Aeon_of_Ruin/ 
 
This one is for @Shambler who doesn't like pixels =D

https://twitter.com/3DRealms/status/1104032249194926081 
Nice. Much Better. 
 
#328 
nope 
3d Fx Goodness ! 
Finally New 3D Fx game For Us 3dfx VooDoo Fans 
For Some Reason 
i didn't like that upcoming project 
Oh, For No Reason 
 
 
Has anyone played Project Warlock yet?

I might buy it and, honestly, Dusk when they go on sale. I'm not gonna say much about Dusk until I actually play it, just that it looks like it could be decent fun.

I'm obviously very excited about Wrath. 
Wrath Deserves Its Own Thread 
It's not merely a retro-inspired game, it's a Quake-based game. 
I Agree 
and the levels were made by mappers from this community, so, it should have it's own thread for people to share news, info and screenshots. 
Wrath Is Looking Promising 
I just hope it won't have too many gimmicky game mechanics that could interfere with the kind of seamlessly smooth action sequences I expect from most older games. Even Hexen and Hexen 2 didn't have too much inventory management, like Diablo etc. 
Doesn't Look Like It At All. 
 
Err Yeah 
I may be wrong, but i kinda think the whole POINT of this is to cut through the bullshit of modern FPS and get back to basics. 
Just My Interpretation Based On Watching The Vids 
 
Witchfire.. 
any news out there about Witchfire? the trailer was so gripping.. please don't be vaporware :( 
Google It. 
They did a dev update, it's still going, just slowly. 
Recent Update 
What's This Item System In Wrath? 
https://youtu.be/9OLmDh6Fyy8?t=60

This seems like it could distract from the flow. 
Lol 
is this the new "pinatas are going to ruin doom 2016"? uninformed opinion? 
#350 
Wrath has an inventory of consumable items like heretic/hexen/duke/etc. rather than cycle, like with [,] (which is the default for those games), wrath has a 1-click menu (press+hold key, move mouse to select item, then release key). it's faster and more intuitive then cycling items.

It's the least disruptive way to have such an inventory IMO. 
Goodo :) 
 
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