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The site was called "The Pirate Bay" FFS!
And almost every file on it had the word "crack" or "rip" in the title, or "keygen". 
"But they seemed to be very sure all that stuff is legal in swe"

Yeah, right. I think you are german, so you understand the saying "Unwissenheit sch�tzt vor Strafe nicht", I guess. For everyone else, I think the correct translation is "Ignorance is no excuse in law".

About the neonazi issue, I have no definite proof, but a quick google search turns up this article at the register

Anyways, even if it's not true, that doesn't change the fact that they knew what they were doing and that it was illegal and that they would be prosecuted one day. 
so, i take it you can point me to and quote the relevant sections in swedish law. Oh, you can't? Then please stfu when somebody's discussing the legal issues regarding pirate bay. Cause, y'know, "Unwissenheit schuetzt vor Dummheit nicht". 
is a pirate hook illegal (commonly worn on thanksgiving), just because it's called like that? is porn? 
Megaman, Who Are You Kidding Here? 
Cause it aint me. Keep digging ole buddy, keep digging. A website called pirate bay, where you go to download "perfectly legitimate files" 99% of which are sub-standard copies of media which is SUPPOSED to be protected under copyright law. And you KNOW that its saving you X amount of money because you KNOW your supposed to pay for it.

Still I see your point - "Mega" - "Man" - you'd expect it to me some sort of extra-proportioned guy of some type. Oh, how surprised you would be. 
I Never Said The Pirate Hook Was Illegal. 
If there was a kiddy porn site called "" you wouldnt argue that that was OK, so why this? 
Ok, if piracy didn�t happened all those companies would win more... DVD�s are way to much expensive� why should they get so many money with a fucking peace of plastic with some songs or movie on it?

I think all these industries should make things more cheep, they will get more money for sure if they put the DVD cheaper�

Metalica are a fucking example, thanks god I don�t like those fagets assholes and if I did, I surely never buy a DVD from then after what they have done!

to get you guys away from the PIRACY IS EVIL track:

rather than arguing about their intentions, i argue about whether there's much that objectively distinguishes them from every other public tracker + directory. And do i have to argue that banning those would be a bad move for freedom of speech? 
I fail to see why you condemn one form of stealing an artists just reward for their work (TBP) while supporting what is effectively another way of stealing artists pay (record labels).

Oh, and Carl Ludstrom is nazi; 
Burp Indeed. 
There are better things to play Devil's Advocate about other than TPB intents, which are bloody obvious.

One of those things, is, as you say, other public trackers + directories.

The thing is: The law is the law. It might not be morally right but we either obey it and live in peace, disobey it and pay the consequences, OR fight to have it changed.

Note that I don't present "disobey it and whine" as a valid option.

(A fair comparison is speeding. The law states we are not allowed to speed. I speed, you speed, everyone speeds (mostly to minor and relatively safe degrees but still illegally). If I fairly get caught speeding, I accept that. I have knowingly broken the law and whether I agree or disagree with that law I have to accept the consequences.).

For people like Trinca who have such a chip on their shoulder about it, might I suggest a good option would be to fight to change the law - or fight to change the way the system works to make media (films, music, games) more accessible i.e. cheaper to people.

Are you going to keep whining about the situation Trinca, or actually do something to STOP THOSE HUGE COMPANIES TAKING TOO MUCH OF OUR FEW MONIES? 
Might I speculate that you too have a chip on your shoulder, perhaps due to personal (or friend's) experiences with record labels??

From what little I understand, record labels actually do work for the artists (organising manufacturing, transport, distribution, promotion, artwork, media negotiations, etc etc), for which they take their cut?? 
I think we need bigger chips on shoulders, these little one just aint cutting it anymore. 
I dont have much time to download...

So no time at all for doing anything...

Is like football i watch if is free but i refuse to pay anything to then!

I just play Quake and i have the original!

Yes i downloaded ilegaly other games, but i deleted then real fast... most of then where demos...

Artists got the concerts... i more then enought money to make then rich... 
Spice Wedges For Me 
Or those curly spiral things, they were fucking great, where did I get them from. Oh yeah that pizza place in Aviemore, yum....Pizza was a bit crap tho. 
Okay, I'll just shut the fuck up then. There's obviously no point in discussing this with someone who is intellectually far superior than me, who is just stupid and can't point you to the "relevant sections of swedish law". Great argument, by the way.

One more thing, since I'm even too stupid to STFU when told: The problem to me is that there obviously is such a huge demand for pirated IP. I wonder if there would be a way to get people to accept that you have to, you know, pay other people for their hard work if you want it. Maybe the solution would be that IP owners offer better distribution systems, or make it cheaper or whatever. But no matter how unsatisfied you are with the big companies, it doesn't give you the right to steal from them. It's really simple.

The real problem is that all the piracy arguments dilute the real issue to no end and eventually play into the hands of those who want more control over the internet. Guys like the TPB founders give them the arguments they need to change the law in order to protect their property. But hey - let's keep mixing up the arguments and shoot us in our own ass by defending piracy, anyway. Because we, like, understand the internet, and stuff. 
Or Put Short 
free speech != right to steal

because, with the right to free speech comes a certain responsibility. 
.. is leaded by Internet Anarchists !! Kill them all :P 
God Bless 
Spy wisest words today!!! 
The real problem is that all the piracy arguments dilute the real issue to no end and eventually play into the hands of those who want more control over the internet. Guys like the TPB founders give them the arguments they need to change the law in order to protect their property.


It's why I disagree with the TBP verdict despite my personal objections to the individuals concerned or my views on copyright.

Oh, and Might I speculate that you too have a chip on your shoulder, perhaps due to personal (or friend's) experiences with record labels??

Got it in one, several of my friends have horror stories of how they've been treated by record labels. Obviously this doesn't cover all labels, and the more interpendant labels tend to be a lot better at actually being representatives for the artists rather than just ripping them off. However, it is standard practise amongst a lot of labels that the costs of recording/production/etc will be 'loaned' to the artist, to later be repayed from the artists share of profits on releases/tours/merch. They will often also take intellectual ownership of the artist's work so that even if they wish to change labels or self-publish in future, their current work still belongs to the guy in a suit with a CD plant...

(and that doesn't even cover the irrelevance of such gate keepers given current communication methods (teh internetz) or my fear that the TBP verdict is step 1 towards the internet being an 'entertainment medium' rather than a means of communication (imagine if churches (the main purveyors of knowledge and written word at the time) had been given the right under law to regulate exactly who published what once the printing press was invented... (yes, I know there are holes in the analogy thank you, it serves to highlight my concerns with the ruling, not as a robust logical argument against it)). 
Got it in one,

Well... that and I was flame baiting ;) 
In regards to your last paragraph, I think it just underlines the point that piracy is bad for free speech because it opens the door to lobbyists and big companies changing the law. I mean, to an extend I think their concerns are absolutetly legitimate, because I belive that piracy is stealing. But if piracy wasn't so rampant and if there weren't guys like the TPB people spitting in the face of the industry, it might have been a lot harder for them to press for such rigid copyright law.

But then, I think the real problem is that copying software or downloading music just doesn't register as theft with the majority of people nowadays. They don't think it's wrong, thus they don't care if it's illegal. I guess if you really wanted to reduce piracy, you'd have to start there, educating people, but not only with a huge stick, but with a carrot here and there. I believe that that is the biggest error the music and film industry have done. They have been way too late for this internet thing, so napster and what have you have filled that void before they could introduce legitmate, cheap and easy to use ways for people to get media. 
Now ^^^ 
That is a lot of sense. 
Because, With The Right To Free Speech Comes A Certain Responsibility. 
well said spider-man 
yeah - that was pretty cheesy 
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