I own it as well, and played about 30 minutes.

Didn't grab me... I should probably give it another try. 

Comooooonn dude. Seriously. You aren't half getting your panties in a bunch.

You're just not making any sense. Let me help to articulate some of your shit a bit better, so i can get my head round this more easily:

Skacky:Fallout 3 is an utter failure on every imaginable level.

This is bullshite.

The game is horrendously successful. As a game.

You're spouting RPG-nerd hubris, which seems strange. RPG-nerd hubris. If your statement had read:

As a pure RPG, Fallout 3 is an utter failure on every imaginable level.

A game being successful doesn't cause all of the people who like the game to become 'hipster idiots' - it is also possible that the game had its own merits.

You then go on to say that the game has no choice & consequence, which is NOT TRUE. It has an abundance of choice and consequence. I know, I have experienced much of this myself.

Now when you go and LIE about a game, it's kind of hard for me to 'understand or try to understand what you're trying to say', because I know that it's BULLSHIT.

You then go on to say:

'you could do the quests in the earlier Fallout games in any order you liked, and they all had meaningful impacts on the storyline and your character and his/her reputation! You could visit cities in any order you liked as well, just pick a direction on the map and go ahead until your find something, do quests and see what happens. The fact that THIS DISAPPEARED IN FALLOUT 3 is just another evidence of its' ... blah blah blah

I have capitalized the part which is a complete FUCKING LIE.

If that part had read 'there was less of this in Fallout 3' then I would find it easier to understand or try to understand what you'r trying to say. But as it stands I'm having trouble understanding it because it's BULLSHIT. You're exaggerating to the point of it being literally bullshit.

Do ya get me? 

Give me an example of a quest that has real choice & consequence in FO3 then. I don't recall any.
I'm not the only one who thinks this and NV actually puts C&C back in which is why it's the superior game out of the two (that and the writing is way better seeing as Obsidian aren't hacks at that). 

Oh! Oh! I remember one ... the Megaton decision which happens pretty early on. That doesn't change the story but it does affect a number of things and relationships within the game world. 

You mean the bomb situation? Granted, this has an impact on the game, yes. 

Well there's the whole situation with the Ghouls & Tenpenny Tower

The android mission

Blowing up Megaton

The launch codes side quest

The Vampires

The way that you get around the overseer in Vault 101

The situation with the slavers and how that relates to little big town and little lamplight

These are just off the top of my head.

TBH I know that there are about double the amount of ending possibilities in the early games than in Fallout 3. But that's with text-based dialogue, in an ancient isometric game.

Skyrim is pretty full-on too, but I'm going to guess you're not keen on T.E.S. games either, probably think that they were all shit after Morrowind, I'm guessing. Heard that POV before too... 

>TBH I know that there are about double the amount of ending possibilities in the early games than in Fallout 3. But that's with text-based dialogue, in an ancient isometric game.

Yeah that was mostly what I wanted to explain. Fallout 1 & 2 were very very rich when it came to that stuff and I really disliked how rigid Fallout 3 was in that regard. Arcanum is another game I really like for that as well, as it manages to have even more options than Fallout (but its combat system is real crap, worse than Planescape Torment's imo). New Vegas actively reintroduced that though which is a definite improvement. By the way these 'ancient isometric games' are making a comeback. You have at least three such games in development right now (two by Fargo & co and one by Avellone & co; Wasteland 2 and Torment, and Pillars of Eternity). And then you have Divinity: Original Sin which was released recently.

I never exactly liked the TES games to be honest. Arena is a chore to play, Daggerfall has cool dungeons but is too big and empty for its own good, Morrowind is excellent though, great great game, Oblivion is rather bad and Skyrim manages to be worse. The biggest issue I have with these last two is level scaling that makes all encounters incredibly boring. And the dungeons in Skyrim are a joke. When it comes to RPGs I'm much more focused on mechanics than anything else. If mechanics are bad the game will be bad, simple as that. Mechanics in FO3 are bad, game is bad, end of story.

On the subject of level scaling: take a game like Gothic for example, or even Fallout, where you can go everywhere you want. You'll get absolutely destroyed most of the time by enemies that are far tougher than you if you're not prepared or not skilled enough, and even if you know these monsters are here you'll still get killed. That doesn't really happen in Oblivion and Skyrim since enemies have more or less the same experience level as you. That makes fights so boring since there's no satisfaction when you're victorious, whereas killing some Deathclaw in FO1 when you have some shit equipment makes you feel like a god. 

IDK, as my introduction to the Fallout universe, Fallout 3 felt like a pretty immersive experience and I enjoyed it a lot. I enjoyed using V.A.T.S and I also enjoyed shooting in real-time. You can only really shoot well in real time once you've leveled your shooting skills up though. I enjoyed New Vegas too, though to me Fallout 3 felt like it had more scope, just more 'randomness'. Not much in it though, TBH. I loved them both.

I have Fallout 2 but I couldn't get into it. One of my palls visited me though, and he played through a large chunk of it in front of me. It seemed more interesting once he had accessed a few locations (don't ask me where). I probably wouldn't have played Fallout 3 much if it had been a 2D/isometric game. I'm just a slut for 3D and eyecandy I guess.

I fancy playing through Fallout 3 and becoming an evil overlord type. I know that you can do a load of different stuff if you choose to be evil.

I've never been a massive RPG fan really, but I did enjoy the newer Fallout games, and Skyrim. T.E.S never really appealed to me either. I guess I appreciate the whole experience of being immersed into a world with high production value and believable voice acting combined with acceptable facial animation etc etc. 

I guess I appreciate the whole experience of being immersed into a world with high production value and believable voice acting combined with acceptable facial animation etc etc.

This is certainly a trait of modern gaming, giving the player so much visual detail that it is overwhelming. Often this leads to little chance for the player to create their own experience or story which is an important fact of RPG, your own experience is what you remember.

This is why older games are still so popular because they have gaps for the player to use their imagination and create back story. Eye candy rich environment may be sweet and exciting at first but there is often little for the players imagination to add afterwards.

I showed a screenshot of a map I am working on to a friend this morning and there was three monsters infront of an altar. Without me having to explain anything he had his own story of what was going on. He drew from the rough strokes in the scene and filled in the blanks. 

 

but your argument against skacky's is basically, because it's popular/sold well, it must be good? 

"What do I want to get from life?"

My argument against Skackys (seeing as you're keen on being a troll and bringing this up again with such an rediculous quip as the one above) is basically that the game might not have such a complex RPG story tree as FO1 & 2, but it isn't "an utter failure on every imaginable level". To say such a thing is to insult the taste of all of the people who enjoyed the game. I mean I'm kind of speachless really.

I don't want to get into this again.

Some people don't like Fallout 3. Boo fucking hoo. I haven't got a problem with people not liking the game. I just think that personally I don't see the game as a failure, I enjoyed it. It has a lot of merit. It was greatly succesful.

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I just thought that his arguments were on the right lines, but grossly exaggerated to the point of not being true. Like saying an utter failure on every imaginable level, and [several features] completely dissappeared from the game when they didn't.

But in truth

FUCK YOU Nitin. Go and troll someone else. I'm not in the mood for this bullshit.


And ALSO:

All this stuff about games having an 'overwhelming' level of detail. Well I wasn't overwhelmed by it. By this bizarre logic, the best game out there would be..........



.......nothing! No game. Then we can just sit infront of our computers and imagine the perfect game. No-one will be able to surpass the brilliance of the imaginary perfect game. What a load of gibberish.

I like games that exist.

I suppose that this type of stuff is to be expected from a developer. The one who actually does imagine the game, and then goes on the create their idea.

It's a bit like when a drummer says 'I've got an idea for a song'. NO. NO YOU HAVEN'T GOT AN IDEA FOR A SONG YOU MUPPET!!! 

 

 

 

so it's fine that people dont like the game but its not fine to call it a complete failure because "To say such a thing is to insult the taste of all of the people who enjoyed the game".

Right, got it, not "exaggerated" at all. And yes thanks for pointing out again that it was greatly successful.

To paraphrase you: Some people love Fallout 3. Boo fucking hoo. 

complete failure != multple awards and loads of fans

If it was a complete failure then it wouldn't have got the acolades that it did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_3#Awards

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073664/awards

http://fallout.bethsoft.com/eng/links/fallout3-awards.php


a complete failure on EVERY LEVEL

*repeated bangs head against table*

I haven't got a problem with anyone not liking the game. I haven't. I'm just pointing out that it's not fair to say it was a complete failure on EVERY LEVEL because it blatantly wasn't.

I mean everyone has their own opinions about what makes a good video game. But the general concensus about Fallout 3 was that it was indeed a 'good' game. 

You both went into a game with different expectations, some of which were met and some not. 

^ jesus fucking christ, this 

I will go a bit further in what maybe pisses some people off about the treatment a series like Fallout and many other classics get.

See a small studio makes an enormously expansive and lovingly crafted game with a "small" team and and budget.
Cult status is attained, the guys made more than just a game in the end, people feel it, theres a part of their soul in it, and its because they really wanted to and tried for the love of it all. A labor of love as Fallout is aptly often described...

Financial success is of course primordial, they have to eat and pay the bills, it is prayed for but they know it very well chances are good it will work out if they do give it their best and know that they are an experienced team that knows that the fuck they are doing.

Now a large studio/publisher combo comes in to it, having picked up the rights to the game.
They have a way larger pool of talent and infintely deeper pockets...
There is no goddamn GOOD reason they cannot achieve what was achieved by a "lesser" team/budget. NONE.

So why, why is there LESS with MORE ??? They could not pay for a few more team members, they could not extend development time a bit more, they emptied their personal bank accounts like the crazy motherfuckers that put every piece of themselves in the original? Yeah fucking right.

It could of been much better, if it had been taken on and directed by a team/company that really cares and is passionate in delivering THE BEST they possibly humanly can.

But not its the nature of the type of company that took the franchise over AT ALL.

All crucial decision affecting the game and the teams ability to deliver their best is in the hands of people that really do not give a steaming SHIT about the game, the culture, in ANY way. They see numbers, they see shareholder meetings. They see their paycheck.

An army of suited cunts walking a rope between not going over the negative feedback/hype tipping point with the public and getting the most money out of the least investement. Thats all there is to the job to them, absolutely all of it, nothing about the franchise matters otherwise.


And justifying this shit with "but it made good sales so they win stfu you are wrong" is just CRAP. Thats how one bends down and accepts the mediocre. The fuckign EMBRACE of mediocre shit is repugnant.

Justifying greed driven undeperformance does nothing good for our cultural achievements.

Yeah its OK, yeah its actually fun to play through in some ways - but its far from all it could have been without loosing what it does have goign for it. And that is not ok. Its a pisstake. 

We're still talking about this?
Killes is wrong btw, I'd explain why but I'm typing this on my phone while drinking a beer by the pool. 

 

Since this dead horse is already a pile of pulp, I just want to address a small point that was brought up in this discussion.

IMO, awards and accolades a piece of work receives (games, film, music) cannot reliably be used as an indicator of its quality. I've seen many a pile-o-shit receive praise, while worthy works have only a cult following.

Also, just play the games you like and enjoy them. If you like a game that is tailored to the mainstream audience that doesn't mean you're a cretin. If you like artsy, esoteric ejaculate that doesn't mean you're some sort of ultra-sophisticated intellectual. And, if you want to play an RPG, just play Morrowind :P 

Ask skacky about the new Thief game! 

"but its far from all it could have been"

Well, I'm yet to play a game in my life that was perfect, and couldn't have been better. Every game out there 'could be more'. I haven't played skyrim yet though :D

BTW guys it's fun to discuss these older games. Just don't get too hot about it, it's just a discussion. Don't take anything too personally.