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Thought 3 - So Why Don`t You Lot Map For More Recent Games Then??
(Apart from Vondur at least he mapped for RTCW).

Sooooo, getting two vibes here....firstly a lot of you guys play recent games (by recent I guess I mean since Q3A/UT, yup I`m measuring game epochs by when Id games are released hmmm), and secondly although some people think mapping for more recent games is as problematic as I suggest, some of you don`t. Thus, why doesn`t anyone here map for anything more recent than Q3A/UT?

A few ideas:

A lot of you do but you map in a professional basis for a proper company (usually making console games it seems heh).

Or you play recent games but you`re not inspired to map for them as you have more ideas and more creative freedom in older games.

Or a lot of the recent games you player are mappable/editable.

Or my issue about the increased purposeless of mapping is quite pertinent after all.

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What crack idled mind came up with that shit. 
I Mean #31 
But seconding #32 
I Don't Know What That Guy Wanted 
But with english like that I'm just as happy he didn't get it. 
I Think He Was After An AvP2 Editor 
But of course, it's very hard to write coherently with pimples on your eyes.

As for the original topic, I'm starting to noodle with Radiant and Unrealed, but I have a long way to go before I get anything bearable.

And if I get this job I'm interviewing for tomorrow, I won't have all that much time anymore. 
well I would say that to map for a game and actually get to the point where you can release that map takes a lot of love for the game on the mappers part, and frankly newer games just dont give me that love any more.

I've played around with UnrealED, the Far Cry sandbox (wicked editor!) , gtk radiant etc but the games attached to these editors just dont pull me in ENOUGH to carry through to completion of custom maps. I've started a few ut2k3/4 maps, and a far cry map. Will they ever be finished - probably not, because the appeal of the game just isn't great enough to give me the drive to spend hours of my life making content for it.

Quake on the otherhand has had in by the throat for years now, just when I think I'm starting to tire of the old girl someone will release a new texture set, map, mod, engine, whatever and the inspiration will come flooding back.

Another factor would be time, in Quake you can throw brushes around and create a couple of rooms with full lighting etc in an hour or two, with say q3 engine games and higher it takes a lot more time to achieve the level of quality set for that particular game, some people just dont have the kind of time and it puts them off. This might make Quake mapping sound like a "quick fix" but no, idiot! Its not. Its also refreshing NOT having to worry about shaders, multiple passes, compatibility etc because quake has no issues with any of these, and thats a lot less headaches for the mappers...

Short answer - I still only map for Q1 because its my favourite game, newer games just aren't as cool. :D 
Dedication And RtCW Mapping 
Heh, so this is where everybody went? (Wavey).

Since I have released maps for 3 different games (Quake, Quake II, and RtCW), I feel I know something about the dedication for a game it would take to finish a project and release it, especially when multiple maps are involved, and you're a one man 'team'.

'Operation Vorsichtig' (2002) for RtCW took me about 7 months to complete, and I didn't feel it was restricted as some seem to believe. It was a very fun game to map for, and I loved exploring all the new aspects related to the Q3 engine, compared to Q1/2. I must say I have a very fond feeling thinking back on that huge project. The games coming out after RtCW, however, I've found much more restricted. None of these I have found worthy picking up an editor for. Games like 'Medal of Honour' or 'Call of Duty' would almost force you to replicate their exact gaming experience. 
Unreal Mapping 
Blows. The controls are pretty hard to get used to, the tutorials on the internet eat cheese, and it's all very confusing.

At least the results look pretty. Too bad all 3 times I've tried to learn UnrealEd I got so confused at how to SELECT a damn brush/box/constructor/doodad, and failed because the tutorial writer assumed I knew how to do it.

It's not like the editor has a SELECT button or anything useful like that. I'm just supposed to figure it out. >:O

Quake mapping (and Q2, even though it wasn't as good a game) on the other hand are pretty straightforward to get into. The limited features available due to the engine keeps things simple, so you can concentrate more on what you want to do instead of making all the really cool features work. 
Did You Try Wolf's UnReal

Personally, I think once the interface of UnRealEd feels second nature to you it isn't such a bad editor. Importation of DXF or t3d files for the interior modeling has us Quake mappers beat in that area. There is a collection of most of the major t3d models from Deus Ex (like Lebedev's 757) you can use for first rate prefabs. There are importers for .map files; so you can carve out a space and import your Quake work. So on the balance of things I find it to my liking. 
What A Splendid Thread! 
P.S. Interesting answer Daz. 
<--fat Man W. A Shiny Ass Pulling Up His Pants 
For me, it's just a matter of only x hours in the day.

I mapped for Doom, then Q2, then Q3 (somehow missing mapping for Q1--yeah, I know, I'm a worthless swine), but each time, learning new techniques and a new editor ate up a fair chunk of time, and there's only so much time available to map + play. I'll probably be mapping for Doom 3, and already am for Q4 (life is good), but that's a given since I'll know the tools.

I've been tempted to map for Far Cry; I like that game more than any shooter I've played in quite a while, but probably won't, only because there's too much other shit I want to do right now (finish Far Cry, play Painkiller, continue to make maps for Trackmania (which is a really great game if you like puzzle and/or racing games, and the editor is very simple and intuitive, which helps)).

Short form: I'm just really picky, considering the time investment that mapping (well) for a game takes. 
The Tools Releationship 
It really comes down to the editor and the engine. Quake is simple. The tools are all straight foward, and the engine is simple. You have entities, textures, and brushes. That is all you really have to worry about in Quake. In the newer games you have the technology to restless with. Take Call of Duty for example. It is a Quake III engine game and uses relatively fimiliar editor for most in the community, however no one here has released anything for it. It is because you have so much more to do in order to make a map playable. You have shaders, terrian, caulking, curves, more advanced lighting techniques with Q3Map, models, and on and on. Now throw in a new and unfimiliar editor and it's even more difficult to start to map with.

For the most part I expect most of the community to dable in Doom III, I will myself. What I question though is if we will start to latch on to this new engine, or get sick of messing around with the technology and return our simple Quake. If there is a game to do this it's either Doom III or Half-Life 2.

When Quake III Arean first launched I remember myself creating a test map that was just an experience in frustration. There was so much more to accomplish in order to get the map to run and look good. Editing tools in my opinion need to take a step toward being more automated in certain functions so the designer isn't side tracked into the smaller stuff. (If that makes any sense.)

Doom III will hopefully be a little easier to map for given that the editor is built into the game code, and the lighting is rendered in real time. If the maps still need to be compiled for one reason or another, I hope that it isn't as daughting a task as it looks. id Software must understand the value of a good editor as it is looking to hire another coder just for that. If the tools become too complexe ameatures (sp) such as ourselves will be turned off. Everyone knows that a good modding community can the extend the shelf life of games by years. (See Half-Life) In that respect it would be a poor business decision to make the games overly complex map/mod for.

Finally as pjw mentioned, time is valuable and increasingly it takes much longer to create a map in a new engine. Tools must start saving the designer time, or new design techniques within the community will have to be created. An exmaple such as Vondor's and czg's latest remix of E1M1 is an example. Map's will become group projects themselves in order to save time. While this is great, I just find it another thing to juggle... :/

Hopefully tho, something will change and we will start seeing custom maps from this community for a range of games. We all complained about id orginal levels for Quake at some point, but we took the game and made it better. I'm sure there are some quality titles out there that deserve that kind effort. 
Confluence Of Events 
It is the versatility of the Single Player Quake game that I find ideas popping up in my head all the time and this has been true for only two other games, Thief and Dues Ex. So the fact Quake 3 Arena was DM is the main reason I have never mapped for it. I still find Quake 2 to be interesting and I have done Machinima work in it as it a great format for that genre.
Also Elite Forces was a good game that I wanted to do some mapping for when it came out, but at the time I was in a 'committed' relationship and I found myself watching more Julia Roberts movies than playing games. Horrible, horrible time.
The other Single Player Games that used Q3 technology RoTCW I have never played and Jedi Knight 2 sucked rotten sewege. Hated that game with a passion born in the deepest bowels of the hell beast, mainly because of the stupid not even worthy of the Sci-Fi channel cut scenes and poor level design. 
Jedi Knight 2 sucked rotten sewege... because of the stupid not even worthy of the Sci-Fi channel cut scenes and poor level design. 
Painkiller Looks Good To Map For 
Because of the variety of the monsters and environments...too bad the guns are pretty limited in selection and there's no RJ 
Was JK2 
Jedi OutCast or Jedi Academy? OutCast I admit had horrible level design imo, some levels were too hard (sniper level) and some of the puzzles took me forever just to find out there was a puzzle there. 
Definitely Outcast. I have never played Jedi Academy. 
rjumping is disabled in single player. it would make getting some secrets too easy.

also, mapping for pk looks to be very difficult, considering the whole game was designed in maya... :( 
New Games 
take/are going to take alot more time, effort & variety of skills (modelling, shaders, scripting) to deliver content that is of quality at least equal to the release.

the act of a solo mapper producing such material is a much more daunting & time consuming task now. we need to start forming groups just to output 1 map! 
also, mapping for pk looks to be very difficult, considering the whole game was designed in maya... :(

That'd be fine, if they released the tools that they used or whatever you need to get a file from maya into their own formats etc. It is my understanding that they haven't done that and won't be doing so, correct me if I'm wrong. 
to be precise, they haven't done that, and won't be doing so for a little while.

i've heard the PCF guys saying that 'later' they will release some SDK stuff. The map editor plugin things should come before that though. I don't have any specific dates though. 
this thread is interesting

i for one would love some of the old quake mapppers to make some 2k4 maps, the really "hardcore" mappers in ut that make duel/dm maps have zero clue whatsoever.. there are no maps along the lines of anything on prominence (just an example, i was browsing that particular site reminissing a few days ago).. unreal maps blow as far as gameplay is concerned, and user maps blow harder as a general rule. of course the games are completly different so youd expect a fair few differences, but come on.. some nice atrium maps wouldnt go astray, the majority seem to be locked into 2 floors only, and teleporters are a nono (apparently cliffyb said they were bad for flow once, so noone uses them)


thanks for letting me bitch :) 
"I don't have any specific dates though."

Never believe what A.Ch. says =) 
Un Real 
"thats the problem with many games - restrictive gameplay. Add restrictive style and you got it - game with not much freedom for creative maps"

Bullshit. There is no restrictive style. You can make anything you want with the bits there. Games are not restrictive. People are restrictive. Consider RtCW, I don't know the maps, but I don't remember Raiders of the Lost Ark seeming like a typical WW2 movie and that had Nazis in it. I can see it a concievable fantasy to have Nazis on spaceships. Put them in a Coagula map if you can make it fun, if I even had the game I'd be as likely to play that as anything else... add a few raves for the map (yeah right) and I might even go get the game. And if you don't want Nazis, it's still got to be a better starting point for SP than Q3A (or Q2??? ;) ).

Similarly, so called quality standards are a weird thing with respect to Quake, it's not that hard to use a newer engine to make something that looks as good as Quake. But even if you can make a more fun map than any so far for the game you're mapping for, people would be far more likely to play a Quake level unless you pander to the wishes of the masses.

There's tons of mapping for newer games, but none of this is single player. I and others have gone through the weaknesses of the games that remain.

As to Unreal editors, I haven't used others, but UED seems like an elegant if twitchy interface, and it is prone to building errors in complex maps. UED2 comes more highly recommended (for UT, UTSP). Lots of experimentation needed to make things work due to documentation, but I'm sure that's true somewhat elsewhere too. I think there's a lot to improve on in Unreal because originally it had to be crippled to run on the PCs of the time, not that anyone else agrees with me on what those things are... 
necros: the stuff they're releasing later allows mod creation, and people to change the entities within preexisting levels, but not create new maps. 
but there has been some mention from the devs that they are thinking of releasing plugins to export maya format as map files, then to use their editor to add items and monsters.
it was really just idle talk, but that was a month or so ago. i don't know what their stance on the issue is right now. 
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