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I Dont Geddit
whats the appeal of Q1 for mapping? when Quake was first released, i thought the SP was manageable, and had a lot of fun with DM, but since then in the last 7 years, ive not given it much of a 2nd thought cept for playing in a nostalgia frame of mind. It was fun back in the day, but anymore its kinda <so what> imo, for play and for mapping.

[19:40:16] <DaZ> gameplay:)
[19:40:41] <inertia> dm is actually really interesting

----

[19:41:31] <inertia> sp has a harder bar to map for; youre expected to make something awe inspiring to look at; its less about play imho
[19:41:37] <inertia> harder = higher
[19:41:50] <monsto> Q1 sp is supposed to be pretty?
[19:41:58] <Killes> hmmm, there pretty sp maps and theres good sp maps
[19:42:06] <Killes> gameplay si important
[19:42:06] <inertia> atmosphere in general is the focus of q1sp... dm is gameplay first
[19:42:10] <monsto> how the fuck do you manage PRETTY in q1sp?
[19:42:21] <AD5|ds> lol

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[19:42:44] <Killes> dosnt have ht be that way, it makes such a difference to the fun of a sp map if the gameplay is done well
[19:43:03] <monsto> Killes, yeah i understand about gameplay...

[edit] yeah i understand that gameplay is pretty much a given in ANY sp, no matter how ugly or simple the engine.

----

[19:45:08] <Killes> well, tru that q1 is more about the ambiance given off than the pure eyecandyness of it
[19:45:20] <Killes> but its engine allows certain atmospheres not really achievable in newer engines
[19:45:37] <Killes> its oldness plays in its favor in some way, the rough hard solid look of it u know

- - - -

I dont get how poly counts in the low hundreds, and lack of colored lighting and map models can create much atmosphere... then again, i thought the retail map <wizards manse> was just DARK, not <atmospheric>.

Im not bashing anyone, i just dont get it and seek TO understand.
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Monsto 
this is as simply as I can explain it without sounding too fanyboyish/melodramatic:

DM mapping - this is simply because some mappers prefer the DM of Quake/QW over the more recent Multiplayer games. If you like the gameplay, there`s more incentive to map for it.

SP mapping - you can get away with any sort of setting for quake and usually the monster set doesnt look out of place. More recent games can be restrictive in terms of theme (eg RTCW and HL only really cater for realisitic or crypt/xen settings) or simply dont have enjoyable enough gameplay to map for (eg Alice). On top of that, more recent games are more time consuming and difficult to produce a quality map(s) for. Single map releases are quite common for Quake but dont seem to be the norm for HL or other mission/episode based games.

As far as visuals go, they really depend on the quality of the mapper and the experience with the engine. As has already been pointed out, some spectacular mappage has been produced over the last year or two despite the age and limitations of the engine.

Maybe that helps, that`s about as simply as I can explain it. 
Monsto 
this is as simply as I can explain it without sounding too fanyboyish/melodramatic:

DM mapping - this is simply because some mappers prefer the DM of Quake/QW over the more recent Multiplayer games. If you like the gameplay, there`s more incentive to map for it.

SP mapping - you can get away with any sort of setting for quake and usually the monster set doesnt look out of place. More recent games can be restrictive in terms of theme (eg RTCW and HL only really cater for realisitic or crypt/xen settings) or simply dont have enjoyable enough gameplay to map for (eg Alice). On top of that, more recent games are more time consuming and difficult to produce a quality map(s) for. Single map releases are quite common for Quake but dont seem to be the norm for HL or other mission/episode based games.

As far as visuals go, they really depend on the quality of the mapper and the experience with the engine. As has already been pointed out, some spectacular mappage has been produced over the last year or two despite the age and limitations of the engine.

Maybe that helps, that`s about as simply as I can explain it. 
:) 
what kell said...

and monsto, if you`re unable to create atmosphere with limited technology it`s your problems (weakness?). go map for your u2 engine and don`t disturb our gloom keep. 
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' 
What the hell is this RTCW is realistic crap? You don't have to play it very long to get the kind of feel it's looking to create. It's kind of a comic book style, where americans are heroic, nazis are either faceless or evil, and the good guys win in the end. It's no more realistic than Indiana Jones, and I like it.

Personally, I intend to make my pushcoag map and then move on to Q3 until Doom3 comes out. 
Me Likes Doom 
but boy does it look ugly after playing q3. but my eyes adjust after a bit. like turning a light on at 3 am.

same for quake. 
Realism 
Fall a hundred feet in RtCW and you die. Fall a hundred feet in quake and you take five damage. Such is the measure of realism. 
I Think Nitin Hit It. 
an explanation that doesnt get technical... so lemme see if i got it straight:

1) nearly universal-use monstoers
regardless of the tileset (custom or retail) the monsters tend to work without much work.

2) low quantity expectation
you can release a :10 sp and not get panned for a short map.

3) short dev time
the lack of sp features means you don't spend a week scripting one room. Q1 sp can be knocked out in fairly short order.

ok THAT i understand. these are SIMPLE things that keep mapping SIMPLE. and any mapper should be able to appreciate that. 
Also... 
You can do a lot of different gameplay situations, without making scriptted scenes/situations that tend to look to much like "look what I can do with this scripting language and how liitle it adds to the gameplay". With q1 it is easier to make fun maps and not boring maps full of gimmicks...

IM A FANBOY! :D 
Yet More 
All mappers are like this: they get a map idea and then make a map around it. Some ideas are more like adventrures and are better for SP, while some are better for arenas and thus DM is the choice. Now you get down to "Why Q1 and not something else" and that reason is probably because of the aforementioned abundance of Q1 texture sets and the ability of the Q1 monsters to fit in there.

Also, I continue to map for Q1 because I have at least 9 maps that I've either started and want to finish or want to start. The number of maps for other mappable games combined is something like 3. I credit this to the abundance or Q1 textures and themes, plus the great baddies.

I'm sure that many other people (such as metlslime) are like me in that they have lots of maps they want to make, but not enough time. 
Nothing Left To Say 
I can`t say anything more, I have lots of strong thoughts and opinions about this topic, but i could only repeat the posts above. These thoughts above are the same that i formulate in my mind each and every day. Now i`m glad to read them posted by other people! :)

Summed up: the title of this thread can be answerred based on 3 general topics. If one person would write a 1000 paged book about Quake, maybe these 3 topics should be the 3 chapters of the book:

#1: The base singleplayer game in Quake is very extensive, each monster is different from the other, which enables infinite possibilities for making any kind of levels, and that`s that best way to set imaginations and creativity free. (The rest above.)

#2: The physics in Quake, the harmony of the weapons enable endless joy in playing, and makes quake deathmatch the best multiplayer game ever. (The rest above.)

#3: The main purpose of Quake was to create a real 3D fps-game, which should have been very amusing too. And therefore Quake is not an everyday industrialized money-eating spectacularity-trendmassgame, but it's a whole new world. It`s not a GAME. Every map for Quake itself is a unique GAME.

Of course these topics accord to each other in some ways, but it`s a good way to analyze the gift of Quake in all spheres. 
"It`s not a GAME."

It's only a game. 
... 
Quake is not an everyday industrialized money-eating spectacularity-trendmassgame.

i like that, and whats more, its true. :0) 
It's Good 
Yes it's only a game but are all levels part of the same game or are they really all unique games? It's really a slippery slope with no definite answer. Just a different level is still unique and it did not exist when the original "game" came out. On the other hand, is Unreal 2003 even a different game than Quake? They're both FPSs based on the same thing (basically the obvious combination of DooM and full 3D), the only difference is that everything is rewritten and replaced and some new stuff has been added and some stuff has been removed. Maybe it's partially intent that make the difference. Many Quake levels, for example, flaunt their similarities to the original levels more than the differences. Even this is not clear, since often the idea is to combine similarity and difference.

It'd argue that it's possible for a Quake level or mod (DMSP maybe) to be more of a new game than some new "games"... at least regarding positive differences ;) . 
Spentron 
you make a valid and well explained point. ;) 
No 
It's only a matter of semantics masquerading as a matter of philosophy. 
Pushplay. 
No its not!

[ok, we can stop now] 
Pushplay 
that should be the tagline of the entire internet. 
Yes 
It's semantics but semantics are usually used to trivialize levels and mods compared to "games" ... a difference suddenly overlooked in the eyes of certain media as soon as the add-on is of commercial origin. 
... 
ah lets all go outside and get some fresh air shall we? 
Mmhm 
good call...





gah! green shit everywhere and...no roof!! 
Besides 
it's raining in the fucking uk 
R_speeds... 
If you're looking for maps with high poly counts, download dranzdm7. I went a bit wild with the brush work. 
I Agree 
i was gonna mention it in the r_speeds discussion in the other thread. my pc seems to slow down A LOT on the dynamic lighting, guess my cheapo Geforce replica is a bit shit! 
Daftpunk 
Not really, I think its more to do with the fact that dynamic lighting (at least with the way it is implemented in glQuake) has a massive performance hit; it would cut my frame rate down by like 50% on my older cards (TNT2, Geforce2) whenever there were any dynamic lights active.

I assume that's why glquake included gl_flashblend, even though it looked crap; much faster than enabling dynamic lighting.

And it might also explain why the dynamic lighting in Q3 is done differently; its much faster, but it doesn't seem to light world geometry (doesn't affect the lightmaps?). 
Orb's Consideration 
Pfew, that's a lot English for an Outlander...
Have read all above becomes almost to much,but...first let me be the ButHead who says,I don't get it, how do you win.
I am almost constantly mapping the last seven years for Quake1, for the only reason
I must be Q1SP-warped.
All games are great, but there is only One Quake! And that's Quake1. Forget the lather.
Never seen a good medieval monster in a cleenswept castle, and if I did, I stopped believing.
Quake2 made it so future-alike, as wearing Visors.
The reason I can't stop mapping is because I can't forget the Q1Single Player event.
All right, go for Dm, but it's lost for me.
Sometimes have the feeling,
Deathmatch killed the SinglePlayer Star.
Great cheer for Kell there, explaning lots of
intuļæ½tive passion.
Running to get my bunch of singleplayer maps toasted and beta tested.
Great thread!
Greetings , MadFox 
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