|Posted by than on 2006/07/20 21:40:56|
|I was going to release my new map tomorrow to celebrate the 10th birthday of Quake, but since I will be away this weekend I decided to release it a day early instead.
You can find more information, screenshots and a download link over at my QExpo booth. You'll need an updated engine such as FitzQuake or aguirRe's enhanced GLQuake to run it, because it is about 50 edicts over the limit :(
http://qexpo.quakedev.com/booth.php?id=29&page=150 (DAY FIVE)
The source .MAP and .RMF are both included in the zip, so if anyone wants to modify it for better DM play or whatever, then go ahead.
doesn't stifle creativity -- you guys arguing about it does.
Are easy. Vore fights are also easy if you have enough space to manuever around the Vore.
Keeping a Shambler at bay is easy if you do the Shambler-shuffle. The Vore is a bit trickier, as long as you have enough space around the Vore to circle about. Once the Vore is gone, you can easily move past a corner, and all 50 Voreballs are gone.
well done than, clean map, good layout, good routing/flow especially around the gold key. fun. good ending. had to search around a bit how to get the silver key and had forgotten where the silver switch/door was.
what is the lift in the hub good for (the one that says, activated elsewhere), didn't need it somehow.
Engine was Joequake, found 1 secret (MH), found pretty much all weapons except for RL, is there one?
skill 0 (I, uhm, have a short attention span *blush*) didn't watch time, perhaps 25 minutes or such.
minor nitpick: r_speeds a bit high in places? could look through some doors, for example in the start room, probably maxsurfs or one of those things?
This map, like Antediluvian and e1m1rmx, should one day be in a "Quake Remapped" project ;-)
someone please make the corresponding wiz-metal map :-)
yes golden_boy there is a Rl :) nightmare secret :) with a extra surprive go find it...
nice work. Solid architecture, imaginative layout, good fights, good lighting.
Good work, Than.
3 secrets only btw
very nice level, than!
complex design, balanced gameplay, interesting brushwerk with alot of angles and cozy nooks and crannies all over. also, i liked the promising ending ;) shambler ambushes were intense and fun, and the level has properiest idbase atmosphere ever... i didn't expect one can make such giant remake of dm3.
now i'm waiting for the dm5rmx ;)
Er Dm4rmx ;)
I'm Sure RPG Won't Mind :)
Cue blatant self promotion.
We've done a mini review of DM3RMX on RPG's QExpo booth. Looky here: http://qexpo.quakedev.com/booth.php?id=55&page=171
What Paul said.
Also I forgot to mention in the review that I got lost once, and I noticed a bit of lighting that was unsourced. For shame, than! You're letting pro mapping go to your head.
Responses To Comments. (big Boring Post)
Thanks for all the feedback, both positive and negative. I've read all the comments and have written my responses below.
Three shamblers is nasty if you go the wrong way, which is entirely possible if you miss the signs and panic when you hear them teleport in (I think I probably would do if I didn't know what to do). However, I'm certain there is enough ammo on normal skill and probably hard to take all three down without going to get the shaft. Of course, it depends on how much ammo the player wastes (picking up boxes when nearly full, missing shots etc.) so perhaps I should have thrown in a couple more boxes just to be on the safe side.
Fighting single shamblers with no cover is not particularly difficult, though I guess the one at the end is a bit cheeky as it appears in a tight space and he can get a cheap hit or two in if you aren't very quick. The vore that appears beforehand is supposed to land on the ledge, and always has done every time I tested the map.
There was a reason for that little door closing, but I forgot what it was now - I think the end fight was going to be quite different, and I didn't want the player retreating into the little cubby hole, but then I changed it :)
Some of the lights in there are actually directly copied from the original. The starting point for the map was to extract the entities from the original bsp using aguirRe's tools and use them as a guide to build the rest. The early lighting was entirely Romero's work, and I tweaked and changed most of it out by the time I had finished.
I tried to give the level a sort of radiosity feel to it without using Riots radiosity tools, so there are many bright lights and also a lot of very low brightness lights with attenuation multipliers set to 0.25 or so, so perhaps that is where the unsourced lighting is. Also, I probably forgot to add a few light sources in my rush to have it finished ;)
Finally, the lighting looks REALLY ass in regular gl engines that don't feature overbrights or anything. It takes out 50% of the contrast or so and the visuals lose a lot. In Fitz on my pc it looks good.
Having said all that, I didn't really go to any great lengths to be exciting with regard to lighting, as I was trying to keep it similar to the original map for DM purposes.
As for the map progression, I was trying to get the most out of the existing layout without adding too many extra areas. I did add several, but aside from the final area and the small pool control room (after getting the gl) they kinda fit neatly onto (or above) what is already there.
I wanted to reuse areas multiple times, because I like passing through the same area multiple times and having different things happen each time, and I also was trying to get as much gameplay in as possible.
Some of the testers found the layout confusing, and some didn't. I was aware it might be a problem, so I did add a lot of arrows and messages in particular problem spots (at the shambler ambush and when getting the silver key.) The exit is also highlighted several times, although the slipgate not functioning and the ability to go back to the start of the level (you have to do a couple of tricky/annoying jumps) from the end pit might also confuse.
The reason there are so many lifts and extra routes is mostly for coop players - especially the corridor from the start to the end and the lifts in the pool room and round atrium. With just one player, the lift in the round atrium has something to do with the super secret, but I won't say any more than that.
There is not a lot of exploration, by the way - it's fairly linear but if you take a wrong turn (miss a cue, forget where to use a key or just get lost) then yes, it can be a bit confusing :/
Paul: In response to your review, the layout and item placement for DM was supposed to be more or less the same - the source is included for anyone who wants to make improvements to the DM layout (more fun for FFA for example) or map in general.
I wasn't really concerned with r_speeds. The epoly can get a bit high in the pool room, and the wpoly is around 1000 max (from what I have found) in the final wateralpha'ed version. I could have kept them to 800 or so, but some of the testers wanted transparent water, and a couple encountered problems as they had wateralpha set to 0.5 or so in their config, so they were able to see the armour secret before finding it themselves.
Great map, I really enjoyed it, got lost and died once, but didn't come across any major problems.
Very nice work. =)
DM3RMX Added To SDA
Review At My Site:
Not Played It Yet
but this will be one of those maps I play only after a good meal and a nice shower ;)
in Doom the monsters are much slower and inflict less damage then in Quake.But if you spawn some shamblers right on the player without cover then some will see it as unfair because they fry him instantly.
I have often been so annoyed by these situations that it really spoilt the fun playing a map, along the lines of "right, otherwise you wouldn�t get me anyway".
Awesome Map Yet Again
I claim to be Than's biggest fan boy.
I'm such a big Than fan that I even stalked him to the point of getting a job at the same company as him. He got a bit scared however and ran away to Japan.
Of Course There Are Artful Ways
and less evolved ways to handle difficult situations like the Shambler ambush. I liked Than's approach because the situation was open ended in your choices of where you could go. I ran back to where I left a an ammo box, and I managed to telefrag one of the Shamblers while doing so.
i didnt have any problems with ammo or difficulty, in fact i thought it was very well balanced.
:( :( :(
Maybe I should have gone to a bit more effort with that area to get it to look good in regular GL engines.
Glad to see it added to the SDA by the way :)
Regarding speedruns, there is one HUGE shortcut I realised exists. It was not intentionally built as a shortcut, but it looks like it would be good for nipping through. Don't know how good it would be in a 100% run though.
on normal i didnt find the 3 shamblers that difficult, i had to try, but i wasnt desperate, using ssg and ng.
now throw a fiend into the mix and it either gets easier or harder... (id probably get the fiend to leap into a shambler).
killer map than, I guess what Vondur said really - proper idbase atmosphere with modern visuals :D
The layout was great - I didn't get lost at all really. The smablers schooled me though :<
Here's my first run demo if you fancy a laugh :}
the visuals are very well done, I�d like to comment mainly on the gameplay:
-the spawning issue: the first shambler crew is very doable, space to retreat is there with cautious play, but the second one at like 133 enemies is just lol.
Why ? Because those situations are so damn easy and boring the second time, figure out where and when they spawn, park your arse on the right spot, game over. Though of course it depends on the type of monsters spawning. Had the map been an overkill from the first moment I wouldn�t complain really.
Still a great map ;)
I knew about the item placement / layout etc, I read the readme :). Fundamentally it�s a problem with the original map that you�ve inherited and there's nothing wrong with that. I�d love to see tweaked item placement. It's still a good laugh as it is.
I wonder though what DM would be like on the full SP layout?
Wow! Great design. Looks perfect, one of the best base levels ever. When I played it for a first time I was sometimes feeling lost and those shamblers were too tough for me. Much better than my attempt for base level called Slipgate#13 (part of an In Ovo "episode").
And Than, I am looking forward for your planned Quoth map very, very much!
Original DM3 with its lack of detail and misalligned textures looks really funny in compare with this masterpiece.
This level is practically perfect and a much-welcomed addition to the remix line of maps. The feel of DM3 is there, with the lower water section and the lifts to the Quad, but the intricate brushwork and excellent texturing of this map blow the original away!
I hereby nominate Than to the idbase Hall of Fame!!!
P.S. Do a quicksave before pushing any buttons and you will eventually figure out a way to deal with those pesky Shamblers ;)
don't press THAT button. Look for a brightly lit fuse - shoot it, and jump out the window to the lift ;)
I should have made the quad easier to get without tempting the player to press that button before they jump out the window, as they are likely to fight the enemies before getting the quad and drop down to face just a few base enemies :(
By the way, for anyone who is interested, I put a demo of me doing nightmare skill with all kills and secrets (NOT a speedrun, so it's not particularly interesting) on my booth during qexpo. It's here: http://qexpo.quakedev.com/uploaded/29/dm3rmx_than_skill3.zip
I should do a nightmare demo with no secrets and fight all the shamblers man to shambler to show there is just enough ammo before getting the shaft.
You remember how everyone complained about lack of ammo in RPGSP1 even though I had no trouble playing on nightmare?... ;)
I don't get the "guru meditation" thing. What's going on there?
yeah, and I stuck LOADS more in the map after people moaned. On normal, you could probably take out all the shamblers in the map twice over and still have enough ammo to launch a rocket with... If you are careful of course.
Assuming the lightning gun doesn't fall out of the world, as it seems to in some engines sometimes. Never happened to me in Fitz or aguiRre's engine though :)
The guru meditation thing is an error message printed by Amigas when they crash. That whole thing was a hint to the super secret, but I got carried away animating the computer screen and wanted to make it crash. The screen before it crashes shows the area the secret is found in, and although it is blocky as fuck, you can see a red button hidden on top of one part of the architecture.
Anyway, for more info on Guru meditation, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_meditation
I used to have an Amiga, so that strange message is fondly remembered.
I can't say anything that hasn't been said before!
Very nice brushwork and texturing indeed!
Nice combat situations.
The guru meditation made me long for my dear old Amiga 2000!
Shells were a little tight on normal, but I always had nails to rely on when such occured, and vice versa. Nor did I find the shamblers tough, and that was without quad - which I found later on (I considered the circuit bit and lift to be part of the original game flow, not for a secret, but forgot it after the shamblers for a while).
BTW, DP is usually the one that has the problem with items falling out of the level, but I didnt encounter that with this map, and the lightning gun proved very useful against the horde of enemies + fiends (when I encountered this, I thought it was supposed to be the herding moment, but I had been saving my shaft ammo so I used that right then).
Counting the beta tests, this is my third play of the map and after 30 mins of hopeless wandering, I can still not proceed after the three shamblers nor can I find the SK. I complained about this early on; extremely confusing layout, constant ammo shortage and unfair opposition.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh than, but the gameplay of this map is really putting me off. Its otherwise very good looks and professional build quality can't save this fact. I hope your next map will feel better in this aspect.
finally got the chance to play this :)
it's a very very interconnected map and thank god there were arrows or i'd have been lost for sure, hehe.
excellent build quality throughout. difficulty was just right for skill 1 for me. i too got lost a little bit after 3 shamblers and trying to find SK. i dunno why, but either the door down to the second button in the room down below wasn't open before or i just missed it (add more lighting there to make it more visible maybe?) but i didn't find the door until blundering into it by accident later on.
asides from that, quite fun fun. thanks for the awesome mapxors, dude :)
the SK can be missed... either make it so that you can't continue until you pick up the key, or make it visible as you approach it. as it is, it's tucked in a corner on the right side, and i walked right by it without seeing it at all.
The Other Side Of The Coin
Not to discount your comments aguire, but I had quite a different experience with this map. I'm sure it helped that I am very familiar with the original map, so navigation was probably a bit easier as a result.
I didn't have any progression problems despite the fact that I intentionally bypassed the silver key door without the key (was this meant to be possible?); I was going for all kills/secrets rather than a quick exit anyways, so I just wandered around till I found everything and took my time about it, got a little bit confused at times of course but not hopelessly lost, given that each area looks unique and there are often arrows or other visual cues pointing the way. I found it to be a nice change of pace from the usual extremely linear SP maps you tend to get these days (not necessarily for Quake, just in general).
No real ammo problems either, there was certainly enough around to get the job done, no complaints there.
I think I played on either skill 1 or 2, can't remember. Overall it was challenging at times without being overly difficult, especially considering the open nature of the layout allowed me escape and go find more ammo/health etc if I did get into any dicey situations (e.g. coming across a fiend, armed with nothing but an axe!)
The shortcut to get into the RL area was particularly devious, so it was pretty satisfying to get that one.
Nice work Than!
I am pretty amazed that after three plays you still can't find the silver key, despite the fact it is visible from a window, has some arrows pointing the route to it, and is in the area just after the shambler attack behind some doors that tell you they are opened from below. Also, surely if you follow the arrows when the shamblers appear, and aren't so determined to fight them, you might be able to escape intact.
I wanted the player to be constantly short of ammo for the first part of the map, so that is intentional, but I added a lot more, so it is possible to have a lot remaining by the time you reach the shamblers on normal and easy. Hard and nightmare are a different matter, and you might expect to have more ammo shortages there - especially if you are careless when picking up items/shooting at enemies.
Anyway, your suggestions were helpful and I took them on board to some extent, but I didn't want to overfill the map with ammo.
By the way, I watched ankh play on normal or hard, and the lightning gun fell out the level (something I've never seen happen). He managed to reach the end of the level regardless of this (died fighting the scrags at the end), and although he used the axe to take down an enforcer, he seemed to be encountering ammo just as he ran out. This is without the most powerful non-explosive weapon in the game, the quad, or full ammo for it 2* over.
Anyway, I will take on all the criticism I've received regarding this map for the next one, so it shouldn't be so tight on ammo. You've seen the layout before, but I will try and make sure it is easy to navigate. Sorry if people got lost on dm3rmx :/
Now I think about it, I guess I can understand how the silver key can be missed. There are three buttons in the sk area, the one that reveals the lightning gun also opens the doors above. The door to the room with that switch is not amazingly clear, although it is textured differently and has bright lighting on it compared to the surroundings. Tyrann suggested to increase the trigger size of the door, so it is easier to open the door when you walk past. I did this, but didn't make it really big. Anyway, if you miss that, you won't get very far. Perhaps I should've had the lower switch on the computer pillar open the door... hmm. Too late to change it now.
Also, the timing of the shamblers was a bit shit. I tweaked it multiple times to try and get the shambler appearances to lure the player in the right direction, but actually I should have made the furthest shambler appear first, because players always seem to run to attack it. That would at least have put them on the right side of the big door... and yes, maybe I should have made the door to the sk area clearer and put a window in it (also revealing the quad position and perhaps giving the player an early clue that the quad is up the lift outside (assuming the player knows the dm3 layout).
The silver key door skipping jump was not intentional - I never tried it like that, and didn't think Quake had air control that good.
Oh, and before you reply, the first paragraph of my previous post was not supposed to sound patronising, so sorry if it does.
I just played it again. The changes you made are good, the red arrows help navigating a lot. In fact I did not get lost once (ok, I kinda knew the map).
This is a very impressive map and I really don't think the issues brought up here are too bad.
I think that a proper use of the GL is important on this map. If you can manage to take down groups of 2-3 monsters (grunts and enforcers preferably and that one big group of fiends+other monsters) with grenades you can spare the needed amount of nails and shells. I have missed a few grenade shots and thus couldn't kill the scrags at the end and had to escape with some luck (the scrags didn't kill me :). I had a similar issue with my hdn map - without using the GL you would run out of ammo very quickly.
And I think that I was playing than's map on hard skill.
Oh and the problem with LG falling out of the level never happened to me again. Strange :)
The Broken Teleporter At The End
used to be a way to escape past the scrags. It would cause a bright flash every 5-6 seconds, and when it did that, it would teleport whatever was inside it to the bottom of the pit (telefragging some of those bastard scrags in the process). I changed it to only flash when monsters teleported into that area in the end though, so you can only use it in coop. Might help speedrunners, but not likely.
Thankyou Thankyou Than...
...I'll be playing this again tonight, as I believe I got through largely by accident first time (I suspect I missed a few sections), not that it bothered me as the architecture and lighting I did encounter was of the highest quality. I got one of those "Awe, crap! I'm never going to be able to make something this good." moments when I looked through the window into the section that later holds the jumping vore ambush. Not that it will stop me mapping :)
The lighting in FitzQuake was superb.
Isnt it the most detailed and well-textured q1 map ever. Great (and very original!) designs.
Exceptionally fresh. And many many hrs of work, I assume.
Navigation was a bit puzzling, not bad tho (arrows help). Shamblers.. well I finished the third one with grenades and ol` rusty axe.
But after LG its a cakewalk.
Finally Got To Play
Not knowing my way around DM3 I did get a bit lost on occasion, but I independently agreed with the two main thrusts of this thread:
- It's the sexiest architecture ever to grace Quake
- The first shambler teleports were pretty fucking cheap, and the rest were equally lethal.
I lived, though. Overall, huzzah. Looking forward to the next one.
that 49 second easy dm3rmx by mr Fitzgerald is crazy.
The Laser Jump
in the 49 second one is quite cool, but isn't the grenade countdown a bit of a cheat? Surely the most impressive thing about speedrunning should be the runner's impecable sense of timing?
Well, It's Allowed In The Rules, So...
There are lots of things that might or might not be cheats -- r_fullbright for example -- and the grenade counter has been used since the days of the 19:49 qdq run AFAIK, so it's just part of the scene now.
It's often removed from demos before posting though.
49 Sec Run
goddamn cool stuff. It'd be ace to see some coop runs too, presuming than added some coop starts. Maybe one player could shoot the other up instead of the enforcer. The whole grenade jump-a-rama is awesome too.
I really like the slope/enforcer blast jump and the final grenade jump to telefrag the shambler.
The double GJ trick was something really obvious that wasn't intentionally a shortcut route. It was originally because I wanted the top of the walls to look like they continued round, and also to let some scrags get around more easily (not that those cheating wallhacking bastards need it!) I left some of the scrags out in the end, and I guess I left the shortcut in.
The 100% run was pretty cool too - shame about the RL secret wasting so much time :(
I'd love to see a coop nightmare 100% :)
I'd Love To See Your Mum Again
she's pretty fun in a coop game
yeah, and I stuck LOADS more in the map after people moaned
that is one point where the gameplay of Q1SP could be more evolved, not to overstress the comparison to Doom, but Kaiser�s maps come to mind where it�s often impossible to get 100% kills, you have to run past some hordes to finish.
Of course Doom has the berserk fist, and most monsters are more doable in mellee than in Quake, but still it�s very rare to be short of ammo in Quake.I�d rather face such a challenge than those pesky teleporting shamblers (and the ammo balance was just right in DM3RMX than, good job.
Cool map, good fun, I very much approve of the concept too. I like fresh twists on old stuff.
There was plenty of ammo (especially at the end!), all the ambushes were easily outwittable, and the path was fine with a bit of exploring, got confusing backtracking sometimes. The quad secret was nice.
Hope someone is going to do a tidied speedrun although I can appreciate the frustration of the trick at the start. I like the GJ to telefrag the smalber.
Note how I pretty much copy/pasted the LotW review from my QExpo review. :)
I know how people run out of ammo. they probably play run+gun like i do, and i was out of shells and nails by the first sham
This Map Is...
Found All Secrets
Found 4 while progressing to the end and found the other two after clearing the map. This is a good secret hunter's map - especially to get the Nightmare rated secret.
I really liked this map. Excellent build quality and detail and lighting. The crampy areas felt like they should be crampy and the normal areas were fine for combat. The 3D layout is tight and neat - bypasses open up nicely as you progress. Supplies and enemies were fine on Hard. The layout did get me lost but I never really minded. I just kept exploring until I disturbed some new found enemies. The arrows did help some. I liked hanging out in this base - even when it was quiet.
The ending is very cool with that touch of detail on the fall to the exit. Such nice touches show that Q1 can still compete on immersion if level details and lighting are well crafted.
Also - this may have the best readme and backstory of any SPQ1 map ever. Hilarious - I was lucky that the floppy fell off the wild horse penis while I was chasing it to get a new map to play.
Props to Than - would love to see more remixes of iD originals from any mapper who can make comparable work as this or the E1M1 remix that's also out there.
. . .
I'm working on a remake of ep3 in Quoth2, but there's a long way to go before it can even hold a candle to Than's dm3rmx (which I'm about to play again), or the e1m1 remake.
Replayed This Due To The Threadcromancy
And remembered that this is an immensely good map! Dripping in detail and complex architecture, like all the 3d computer / electric stuff, and the uber-connected layout. Great gameplay too, lots of base stuff and great smabler surprises. Definitely one of the best pure base maps around, if not the best.
Sigh, would have been great to have a full DMrmx series of this quality, I'm sure all the others would convert well with a little common sense...
Replayed As Well
and its still a fantastic map.
best map ever by best mapper ever
this is true!!!
than is a Quake mapper god!
he was born to map for this game, fuck real life :\ he is mapping for others games :)
Guys, Calm Down
this was a sweet map. but I dunno if the other dm maps would be suited for remakes. He picked the best one for it imho.
Thanks for reading, scragbait. Even if one person reads my shite stories about Dave and his chums, I feel like they were worth writing.
The original plan was to remake all the DM maps, but I'm not sure I'll ever get the time. I have to spend December getting my basepak map done and once the basepak is out I will finish off my Quoth map and then probably quit mapping due to lack of free time.
Anyway, like Tronyn said, dm3 was the most suitable for a remake, but I definitely think that ALL of the other could be made into good SP maps if enough is done to the layout to make them good. DM4 would be a bitch though :/ More cramped than a "room" in a capsule hotel. The best remaining maps are probably DM2 and DM7, with DM1 probably being easy to turn into a nice little short map and the others probably only interesting with heavy modification. DM6 might make a decent boss map I guess, but that's a boring idea :/
...yes, the best remaining one to tackle would be DM2 ?
could be magical indeed...
...since I've done a bit of work on remixing it already, how do you feel about collaborating on this one?
email plz ;)
I demand to be beta tester...
...because it will be an awesome makeover.
...is part of travail.
...that's the bit of remixing I was talking about, but the Travail homage is in the wrong skin for a start. Hopefully I will persuade someone to knock up some high res versions of the dm2 textures (plus a few extra metal bits), as I think part of the beauty of dm3rmx is being able to play it with starbuck's nut crunching remakes. Also, any real extension (or architectural finessing) of dm2 in Travail was heavily limited by the fact that it was part of a larger level. Qte2m2 didn't smack up against the limits like some of the Travail levels...but it got pretty close.
Scraggy: interested noted, but first I need you to look at this d3 skinned quoth driven number I'm working on :)
Still rocks. For the reasons above.
When I clicked on the thread link I was expecting a spammer trying to flog us all handbags.
DM7RMX should be released in a couple of days after I get final tester feedback. Hopefully you will enjoy that too.
Then I need to finish off DM1RMX, but I've gotten excited about making DM5RMX and started that yesterday. Argh! Even after nearly 16 years my desire to map Quake levels is not satiated. Luckily I'm not the only one :)
Forgot About This Gem!
5/6 secrets including the hairy secret! /flex
Video should be up soonish.
This was great to play through again, such mind boggling detail in all the areas, fantastic lighting too.
come back than
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