Fun map. I probably wasn't really giving it the concentration it deserved (was more in the mood for a mindless blast) and died a few times for a variety of silly reasons. None of them felt unfair though, and I loved the fact that exploration was generally rewarded. I had the problem that metlslime mentioned about being very disoriented when teleporting back from secrets. Oh and I forgot to record a demo. Need to go back and play on hard and find all the secrets...
@Drew, now if only all mappers would write down their thoughts and post them with their maps, it would be a wonderful world! :P
I have thought about creating a screen capture of the editor and compiling it into a video. That might be interesting to see, but it is a crazy amount of extra work just for a couple of people to watch. Plus I use GTKradiant and the Quake community is mostly WC/TB nowadays.
I am surprised to see you comment, I had given up hoping that any of the original community mappers would play Quake anymore or even want to post feedback! Thanks for taking the time.
In your readme you say the secrets aren't satisfying
I think the problem with the secrets in this map is that they are all roughly the same type, either you are finding button or the route to a certain ledge. Often Quake maps have a much richer variety of types and the structure in this map is so open it was difficult to find good locations to hide stuff.
whenever i used a teleporter to get back up from a secret I completely lost my sense of orientation
Teleporters are like resetting the player and are always difficult to setup correctly. I tried to help with this by including arrows on corners and architecture for the player to see after teleporting but the arrows are too subtle. My other plan was to have the outer platforms explode after teleporting but I ran out time and will power.
I am not a huge fan of these arena battles since so many maps seem to have them
This is a problem with Quake, there is nothing to do for final battles besides wave spawning. The only two bosses in the game have been done to death and not really rewarding to fight. I am probably partly to blame because the wave spawning is an easy system to setup instead of trying to find more creative ways to finish.
So far I have tried nail shooters traps, giant crushers, classic DM style wave spawning and even staggered button pressing with lightning attacks for end battles. Each new map is certainly getting harder to find more tricks to include in the final arena without resorting to creating new boss models.
though the first bridge in the main map is right in front of the player so that could have served the same purpose
I really wanted the player to hit the bridge button first and drop the AI to their death and due to QPB (Quake Player Baggage) everyone just shoots first and then maybe explores later. So I thought it would be better to show the mechanic first without any distractions (enemies) so that the player might be tempted to push the button a second time. Funnily enough there was plenty of players who still ignored the buttons!
Oh well I tried ...
Your maps have all had good secrets
Now I am curious, have you played my other maps? Do you have any comments/feedback on those? :)
@Orl, thanks the demo, you really dealt with the bob's well and you still had plenty of ammo left for the gug at the end! I suspect that GLQuake error you are getting is something related to Quoth, which version of Quoth are you using?
@mwh, I really try to create maps for players to explore and less about room clearing, but this map is tricky because of the limited floor space which does force greater awareness of surroundings. Hope you have fun with the higher skill level.
End Arena Battle
Interesting. I did feel the Gug didn't work so well in this one, and that the lightning mechanic was underused.
It is a pain in the arse setting up puzzles in Quake but it could have been cool to have the balance of the final arena 70% puzzle 30% fight rather than the other way around.
So the player has to activate electrodes func_doors to block the lightning shafts in a timed secret or something. Then each time they do it a mini-horde spawns in, until the final one where the portal opens.
Setting up the logic for this kind of thing is extremely difficult though. I've lost count of the number of times I've tried and tried only to finally give in and drop in the big monster instead.
The lightning theme could also have been continued throughout the map as a signposting method, activating them in places where the player needs to go after teleporting in roder to orient them...
Don't take this too seriously, just thinking aloud.
timed secret = timed sequence
@ijed, sounds like an awesome idea! If I had the extra time for this project I would have done more interaction and consistent detail but this map was really just a quickie.
Creating wave spawning final encounters is far easier than trying to create entity logic and there is also the expectation of QPB (Quake Player Baggage) that players expect the game to work a certain way and anything different will need to be introduced gradually or beforehand. There is also the problem that even with introduction / training you might still get some players ignoring all the examples and still wander around aimless wondering what to do.
The best way to address final arena setups is to create something new and different with the aid of Quake C. One of my favourite Quake final battles is the boss at the end of The Altar of Storms
. A classic example of good QC, models, sound and interesting boss arena design.
The various new entities in Quoth do give you some additional control for game logic though.
But I admit for the electrodes idea I was thinking of using a NOT logic gate set up.
You fire a lightning bolt at a button that receives damage.
If it's receiving damage during a certain duration then you don't pass to the next phase.
To block it you activate an 'electrode' which is just a func_door that gets in the way of the bolt.
I should probably implement this in my map now :D
I did play some of your previous levels, but not all. It's been a busy year for me, and I have found myself playing fewer new quake releases than in the old days. I played all of Zendar, and at least loaded up some of the other ones.
Regarding the teleporter problem, i don't have a great solution for them (other than putting in lifts or ladders instead.) but your subtle arrows were actually well done for helping players find the alpha path, it's just that they do no good helping them find that secret ledge they previously spotted and are trying to get back to. I guess the other solution, that i alluded to earlier, is to make each "trunk" distinctive so you could find it again after teleporting. Like if one was red brick, one blue brick, etc (i realize this doesn't match your asethetic, it's just an example.) So you see the secret armor, you say "okay, it's on the side of the red brick pillar" and then after teleporting, you look around and find that same pillar.
Regarding the boss battle, one idea that would have fit with this map is to build the battle around the yellow bridges. Imagine a multi-tiered area with the exit at the top, and the player is successively activating yellow forcefields to ascend. This collection of forcefields and other platforms creates an open combat area that is a stage for waves of monsters, but becuase the stage is interesting (instead of a big plain arena) it would probably be more memorable.
Or, maybe you could invert the mechanic by having the playfield be divided up by a bunch of vertical forcefields, so that as the player disabled each wall it would release more enemies -- players could see the enemies in advance and maybe plan the order of forcefields to open, but they would have to open them all eventually (to get to the exit.)
Or imagine a vertical room with player at the top, looking down through 3-4 transparent floors, each one a forcefield. You would have to disable each floor 1 by 1 to drop down to the next room, and each room would contain guys. So if you rush from button to button you'll have all the guys still alive on the bottom floor with you. Or you can clear each floor before dropping down.
In all cases, the idea is to use your level's unique gimmick which players already understand, to create a playfield that is changing over time and those changes are relevant to combat, and maybe introduce player choice into how they change the playfield.
...got around to playing it. The usual, on easy with a couple of vodka martinis under the belt.
I will replay this level again, and on different skill levels. The language of the level was crystal clear this time, which meant I felt comfortable exploring and never felt lost. It feels like there could be heaps of different routes to complete this one, and I want to test that feeling.
Also had some peace at home to play the map :)
Another pearl from Sock, thank you very much for this fantastic map.
the routes possibilities were fantastic. loved the end fight :) was especting hard core final but was easyer that I tought ;)
Sock you ROCK!
Very nice map Sock. I had been avoiding Quake since last year after suffering a bit of mapping burnout, but I ran across this on Daz's youtube channel, so I downloaded it today and gave it a play.
Lot's of fun and I actually managed to fall off and kill myself a few times. Sorry, but I forgot to check how many secrets I found (I played on "normal"). Very enjoyable and awesome looking too.
I don't like final arena battles or "boss mobs" as a rule, for me the fun is in the journey, but I did actually make to the final wave before turning on god mode. A little more health and nails and I probably would have made it to the end. Overall an excellent map, as usual. Thanks for the fun, I really liked poking around in all the odd corners and climbing on the ledges. I'll definitely have to play this one again.
@distrans, thanks for the demo. I would recommend trying different skill levels, there are plenty of different routes to try out and lots of weapons you can get early. (Including the PG)
@Trinca, Thanks for the demo, I though skill 2 was hard but it seems you need a Tronyn skill level! :P
@Rick, Glad to hear you are back into Quake, I know that feeling, I took a break for a while myself. The final battle is certainly a lot easier with more weapons and the skill level on this map is a lot harder than my usual setup.
Sock to many years playing Quake and Quakeworld!
But map is very well balanced, I just play good I think :p
Had a few scares :)
Map is fantastic, thank you again!
Very enjoyable puzzle map. ++
This map was incredible. Didn't really feel like a puzzle map, as Baker says, but (on skill 2 at least) it's an amazing action map. From about half way through the map, the number of enemies attacking from above seems to increase, and the BOBs increase in number and really start to pile on the pressure.
I didn't have much trouble with Mr void, although I did accidentally turn off a force field bridge once as I was walking onto it; There seemed to be plenty of room to move around all the time I needed it.
The finale, although an arena battle, which some people seem to complain about a bit, was a fittingly climactic end to such an action packed map. The gug at the end was a bit evil though, because I was low on health, ammo and needed space to move around. The gug's stomp attack and horrible acid bombs were easily enough to chip away my last bit of health.
After I died to the gug once, I tried to keep the cross of protection until he appeared, but it wasn't until my third try that I managed to keep moving around in the earlier waves with enough care that I didn't accidentally grab it.
Awesome work. Looking forward to seeing more! ;)
My demo's really short, because I died about 5 minutes in the first time I played, so I won't bore you with it. Maybe I should go check the Quake wiki to see if there is some information on correct demo recording.
than: what engine are you running? In Quakespasm, demos just keep recording until you go into console and type stop, disconnect, or change maps via console. I think older Fitzquake engines did that too?
<negke> Scampie: older fitz engine did not record continuously
<negke> at least not in a way that would be playable
<Scampie> rekt :_(
<negke> and only new versions of qs do
I'm using some uber secret alpha version of QS only released on this forum. Pretty sure it stops when you die and quickload though. I could check...
Quickloading always disconnects while you're on a server. Certain newer engines only support recording across level changes and restarts after deaths.
So You Need To Record A Separate Demo?
I'm not sure I even know how to record a demo after a quickload. I'm not going to start the map again from the beginning just for a demo :)
disconnect; record demo; load quick
Nice map, took me 13 minutes, played on hard and managed not to die even if aiming & moving felt a bit awkward at first (hadn't played Quake in months). I found only 3 secrets but I was a bit hesitant to explore the dangerous ledges, especially since I was feeling a bit rusty. But I wasn't really needing any extra ammo anyway until the very end.
Wonderful map. Love the detailing and the new additions. The "end bosses" were really cool as well.
Solid map; really cool architecture, very good ambience and gameplay. This reconciliates myself with Quoth if I ever hated it (but that was not the case).
Great map !