For what it's worth, engines probably typically want to react to what the community is actually doing, rather than create a brand new content creation paradigm and then hope that some modders pick it up and start doing something worthwhile with it.

DP, FTE have md3 and Q3 bsp, amongst all manner of other things, and have done for a long time. When we start seeing good projects based around those features, we might start seeing support in other engines. 

this thread title is like a legal contract - realistically. Its such a relative term :D I'll try.

Realistically I would love quake's palette restrictions lifted. I understand that its all comes down to the fact that old wads and bsps can't store truecolor images, but (correct me if I'm wrong) you're converting them to truecolor anyway when loading into memory?

So bsp can store palette.lmp. So what if, upon loading said bsp, engine detects it has palette.lmp and uses it for textures from that bsp, instead of default one? Obviously items and weapons would still use original palette.

From my ignorant perspective it sounds very realistic. But then again I have no idea about inner workings of Quake engine, let alone source ports.

Point is - using colors from original palette is very limiting. It might be a good thing to keep things coherent and 'in-style', but from what I've seen so far, people would rather create awfully translated to quake's palette textures than adjust their design decisions. The idea of creating a new mod just so I can change color palette is absurd and discouraging. 

Whoa, you can totally remove all palette restrictions right now by just using external textures! Works in every custom quake engine I know.

You can even keep your new fancy coloured textures looking all limited-palette and pixel arty, but that's an artistic decision now. 

If you're using external textures, you can still have crappy Q1-paletted versions "baked" into the bsp to allow backwards compatibility for any wierdos somehow not using an external-texture-compatible engine, but if you aren't interested in backwards compatibility, you can even tell ericw's qbsp to strip the Q1 textures out of the .bsp and rely only on the externals. 

way to make a bear feel stupid :D oh well, ignore me :P 

What some popular engines doesn't support are special textures like bumpmaps, normalmaps and so on. Regular 24-bit color images are fine. 

@#198
The word 'good' is incredibly subjective.

In this community, 'good' means 'like quake', which in turn means 'low res', which to most people from outside the quake community means 'crap'.
That is the problem.


@#199
While its true that most engines support high res textures...
1) filenames for those textures is pretty much pot-luck - on a per-engine basis. And good luck with fullbright naming too.
2) supporting all the possible paths results in horrible horrible load times on windows, so expect only one, and for it to not match any other engine.
3) you can't be sure about file types either, for instance, QuakeSpasm pretty much only supports tgas (unless you count pcx as a 24-bit image format - I don't, although per-texture palettes can still be useful). Good luck when it comes to fullbright channels - additive, blended, premultiplied, etc...
4) pk3s(read: zips) are not supported by eg QS, so you'll have to use some large paks instead, along with needing to use annoying tools that have not been updated since q2 era and were never that friendly anyway...
5) except that quakespasm doesn't support miscellaneous pak file names, so they'd have to be numbered exactly and probably break...
6) so instead you'll have to distribute all those files loose which makes it really messy...
7) and they'll get confused with all the other maps because quakespasm lacks per-map replacement textures (even though you need that even for replacement textures with the vanilla quake maps).
8) so you need to create an entirely new gamedir.
9) which requires command-line arguments or console commands that vary in every single engine
10) and you can't use multiple gamedirs so if its an AD mod you have to distribute the ENTIRE ad (the alternative is installation instructions that 'no-one' would bother to follow).

so yes, 24-bit textures work... But you'll screw up every other maps, and you STILL need a wad for your map editor and so the qbsp can get the texture wraps/lightmap correct.

And in writing this post, I remembered that per-map replacement textures is something I overlooked in QSS, so it's still kinda screwed with conflicts despite the png+pk3+naming stuff that I added to it.

And now I'm wondering about tweaking ericw's tools to spit out a hlbsp with its per-texture palettes.


@Kinn
Hopefully you should understand Eukara's stance a little better now.

Additionally, note that while ericw's tools support writing a bsp with no mipmap data, ericw's engine (read: quakespasm) will just give you corruption if you actually try using it. That was my change (and probably only got merged because it was in the same patch as the phong stuff). Both FTE+QSS support it, but apparently no-one else gives a shit about stuff like that. The same is true of embedding the lits inside the bsp (although ezquake supports that one too, but not QS).


@Qmaster
FTE is intended mostly for modders (note that the one tool that shares fte's name is a quakec compiler). For it to be useful to modders, it has to cater to users too (like OPTIONAL realtime lights, or its 8bit rendering stuff, its better networking, raised map limits, etc).

At the end of the day, there's a fine balance between compatibility and sanity. The only way to avoid needing to balance is adding lots of extra cvars. Hence the presets, in an attempt to get it configured how people want without them fleeing in terror and bewilderment. 

@Spike

First, i love your engine.

Second, You sir, are a genius =D

Third, thank you for your awesome work =D 

Where would I find info on how to add real time lights to my map for FTE? I'll be honest I am not a big fan of those BUT I would rather place them myself than have FTE do it automagically. 

In this community, 'good' means 'like quake', which in turn means 'low res', which to most people from outside the quake community means 'crap'.
That is the problem.

For me, 'good' means 'fitting in with quake via gradual enhancements' which in turn means 'a resolution harmonious with the level of models, typical map brushwork, and general graphical effects'. 

We are talking about Quake so I can agree with making it fit with Quake's style.

I would like to have a CSQC HUD template that matches the original HUD so that people could use it as a base to tweak or add things rather than reinvent the whole wheel.

Heck I might make one myself someday. 

Quakespasm inherited per-map external textures from Fitzquake 0.85; they go in /textures/mapname/ (docs: http://celephais.net/fitzquake/files/fitzquake085.txt ). 

Probably wise a decision merging my thoughts into this thread, but I wanted to avoid the toxic stew of the unrealistic weird crap in this thread.

Too much crazy talk for me in this thread, I was referring to more pedestrian things.

That being said ...

Appreciate you, Shambler! 

"Wrong. There were mouse-driven GUIs for Quake engines before, and most of them never inspired other engines to follow suit. Even Makaqu has a mouse-driven GUI with a minimalistic approach, which uses the mouse wheel and buttons instead of a pointer and is therefore faster in most situations when we get used to it."

Load up Mark V current beta build. http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61375&start=1835

I'm sorry, but every other engine has tried mouse driven menu has done it wrong.

The Mark V implementation smokes all past failures because it is actually done right.

The closest to "done right" in the past is Spike's implementation in FTE.

The implementation in Mark V nails it.

Try it, I dare you to disagree after trying it.

I am a classic player purist player before I am an engine developer. And this ultra-conservativism is why the menu succeeds.

I went "full retard" to get it how a classic "stick in the mud" would want it work.

I look forward to your "Fuck, I hate to admit it because but you are right Baker and you nailed it!" post, hahahaha!

Btw: I am not kidding. Everyone who has tried said I nailed it. Because I DID NAIL IT! 

May I ask for you try to the mouse driven menu in Mark V build 1050 and share if you if I completely fucking nailed it?

You are a big "stick-in-mud-conservative" which means your opinion is only kind I value.

(If you doubt me, ask Mugwump if I think I value your opinion some time ...) 

I'm sorry if I'm missing something here, but what exactly defines (in this case, at least) if a mouse-driven interface is 'done right' or 'done wrong?' 

Proven good taste for classic Quake is self-evident. If you have to ask, you are not the target audience for such a question.

People with appreciation for the taste of classic Quake and conservative credentials are never in doubt.

They never ask such a question and are pre-loaded with conviction of their righteousness. 

Look -- I don't believe in sugar-coating. I truly don't. I have come to the conclusion that is what ruins most games and millenials.

If I were to rephrase to be more it would go like this: "If you don't know, fuck you".

I'm sincerely not trying to be dick, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart, but isn't your entire screaming "I have shit for taste".

I just CANNOT sympathize with that.

I think that mindset ruins gaming, every game and every form of game.

Now, if you have an open mind, perhaps you can see why I am tearing into your "WTF is good taste" qualification.

I am saying "If you have to ask, FUCK YOU -- disqualified -- go pound sand".

I am do mean that. Without reservation.

If you don't trust your own judgement, go fly a fucking kite, you are the poster-boy for bad taste.

If you understand, and I expect you do. 

And I thought I had some bad rants. 

I wanted to post with just the face but I have to put some words here, I guess. 

My "bad rants" are purely philosophical perspective and conservative prudeness, otp. Your bad rants tend to be personal.

My "bad rants" are impersonally "perspective oriented", even here.

12 beers down and my honest 3rd person critique of a point-of-view is kinder than yours which has many times been euphemistically "quite unkind".

Baker + 12 beers > bigger morale compass than otp. I still care and am not looking to offend the person. Life lesson for otp perhaps? 

So .. regardless of my rants .. let's hear your honest thoughts.

Try the various mouse driven menus listed above, post your thoughts ..

Don't question your judgment .. just state what you feel ... 

You have already demonstrated you have talents that care for the betterment of Quake. Everyone has seen this.

Why not go with that?

You can't spell anti-hero without hero, so quit being such a dick for no reason maybe?

I'm just saying ...

We all know you have the capacity for good. 

I'm well aware of, and actually quite enjoying, my moral compass not being fully functional, so that's hardly a life lesson.(If anything, your bragging sounds like classic compensation, which is fully plausible, considering some of your older, absolutely callous musings in certain threads)

But I'm still capable of doing good, as are you - so I'm hoping once the drunken haxe wears off, you will reflect on what you've done, which is scream profanities at a potential user for asking an unobvious question.

I have never used a mouse-based menu in Quake, so out of pure curiosity I would be seconding Spud's question. What's in it for me, as another Quake-conservative player? Or does that question reflect on my tastes and design sensibilities (which have been an asset so far) as well?

If it is such a revolutionary implementation, it shouldn't be difficult to explain. 

And no, thanks, I'll be an actual hero where I think it matters, which is not the Internet.