Care to elaborate?
I'm also interested in Doom having deeper gameplay, considering the obvious limitations on player movement and level design and the enemies being largely far more primitive walking targets than Quake's bestiary.
Plus Quake has spike shooters, swimming, trains, crushers, Quad, verticality. Props to Doom and all and yes perhaps a Doomjam is in order, but Quake builds on Doom and takes it further.
Doom has several gameplay elements that Quake doesn't have, and vice versa. Quake isn't an expanded Doom.
If you consider just a 2D arena of monsters, then Doom has superior combat.
However, as soon as you move outside 2D arena level design, Quake offers all sorts of other gameplay possibilities far exceeding Dooms.
Doom only beats Quake when you are just limiting yourself to Doom-style level design.
Doom is just a more "fun" game.
That was probably a bit of an overstatement but I think it comes down to Doom II in particular having a handful more monsters then Quake, filling several niches Quake doesn't have without Quoth or AD; but the huge difference is how much faster Doomguy is than Quakeguy. I think this makes a much bigger difference in gameplay than jumping and swimming does. Maybe it's just the kinds of maps I like to play, but looking at high skill-ceiling or "slaughter" WADs, I just haven't seen much like that stuff in Quake other than like skacky's latest demo. Or maybe its just that "Rubik's cubes made of mosnters" are more popular in the Doom community.
The Most Useful Part Of Doom's Movement Speed
is being able to quickly traverse the now empty level you've now spent 20 minutes going over in the middle of some retarded key-hunting horseshit created from a wrongful understanding that complexity = just make a goddamn maze everywhere.
And we're still doing retarded key hunting horseshit through mazes in quake. It's great fun.
What's wrong with a key hunt?
What's wrong with well done mazes?
Real world cities and buildings can be very mazelike. Doors are locked by keys...still...for thousands of years.
Would be better to complain about button hunts while we are at it. . . "Only 3 more complaints to go..."
Doomjam sounds like a blast. Let's make maps with zero vertically overlapping areas, monster horde closets, and obtuse wall secrets.
A Doom 64 jam would be much more fitting. Doom 64 has spikeshooters, room-over-room, colored lighting, fog, and scripted events. Plus, its soundtrack and textures have a style much closer to Quake.
Didn't Expect So Many Replies
Honestly didn't expect the amount of replies to this. I'm surprised at how many interesting responses this got past the first few replies. Thanks for not completely rejecting this thread.
This thread got inspired by the likes of Quoth/AD pushing the idea of what Quake can be beyond what one would expect. But what really impressed me were Fantasy Quake and Your Path of Destruction in how they tapped into the engine in ways that you don't really see anymore. Though they're old mods from the 90s, the way they created new enemy models (no matter how imperfectly) made me really happy.
Fortunately, from my research into this, most of the work's already been done. It's just either lost, forgotten deeper in the Internet, or people just aren't aware of them.
There is a great chance to, instead of copying Doom as it was, reimagine Doom in the Quake Engine. Whether it's through a Doomjam or remaking Doom levels with the lessons of Quake, there's so much that could be done with the idea.
IMO, I think this could be done with the improvements to technology and mapmaking that exists today compared to 20 years ago.
This is a level design thing, and I don't think anybody can reasonably claim Quake had key hunt mazes in the id1 maps (or any obtuseness in the level design at all), whereas Doom 1&2 did have some annoying mazes in the official maps.
So to criticize Quake for "mazes" means you must be criticising community made maps, and if you're including custom content in the criticism of a game, then I guess anything goes lol.
Quake sucked because of all those crappy fullbright boxes I had to play from cdrom.com I guess.
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!! LURK.BSP IS A CLASSIC!
I just haven't seen much like that stuff in Quake other than like skacky's latest demo.
Sounds like someone needs to get their butt over to quaddicted sharpish and start playing through Tronyn's portfolio.
Tronyn's actually in this thread! #14
Long time no see, my friend.
Tronyn's in my top 5 Quake mappers, and yeah, his are some of the most brutal. But there are still a few things by him I haven't played yet do thanks for the reminder...
Play Alien Vendetta.
Ancient Aliens was a great wad and certainly a must play. In case anyone missed it.
I don't think Doom, Doom 2 or Quake had actual mazes. Very hard to get lost in the official levels.
I ever only got lost in some of the custom wads (sometimes bad design, some time the levels were just too fucking big)
E4M8 ... not really a "maze of twisty little passages all alike" but still freakin' confusing and random.
I'll read the thread later, but I already summarized my thoughts on Quake v Doom: http://scar3crow.com/2015/02/quake-and-dooms-mechanics/
Mazes are not defined as such when people get lost in them but when they are built so people get lost in them, if not every map besides the most linear would be mazes. Only a few Doom and Quake custom maps fall in that category.
I remember one of the E2 maps to be really confusing
Im not a mapper, but you know what would be cool?
a jam based on PWADS
look at Sunlust for example, its beautiful, its a fun challenge and it really has strong Quake vibes, I would not be surprised if some of the textures translated well from one game to another
A Quake 32in24
Doom To Quake
Not interested in remaking Doom wads myself. It can be done very well, in the case of ad_e1m1 in Arcane Dimensions. But I think it only works for classic / iconic levels like that. The gameplay is too different between the games.
A good read on the subject: http://scar3crow.com/2015/02/quake-and-dooms-mechanics/
Sunlust looks pretty sweet though!
I was thinking more on the lines of visual inspiration, I dunno, Imagine somebody taking textures from UAC Ultra, or again, sunlust
that would be pretty neat
Then make a wad for mappers to use. Maybe someone will try it.
How dare you good sir, tell me to put my money where my mouth is?
Jokes aside, I'll look into it, who knows, I've seen Hexen textures in quake maps before.
Glad this came back up. Honestly, I've been thinking about it on and off mostly as I play the new Quake Maps that have come up along with watching some Doom WADS.
In truth though, the Quake engine isn't actually as much of a limitation as many people think it is for creating a Doom-style level or gameplay. It's been done before on both a mapping and engine scale, though it's been two decades since anyone's really tried to modify the engine in that way.
But regardless, I still like the idea and would like to see it done at some point.
```In truth though, the Quake engine isn't actually as much of a limitation as many people think it is for creating a Doom-style level or gameplay.```
There's no limitation of sorts there; instead, it's the opposite: a Doom-style level in the Quake engine is wasting the engine's potential. There's a reason one of id's rules when making Quake's maps was basically "if you can make the same map in Doom, scratch it and start over."
Double Posting Knobgobbler
Pretend that post had quotes instead of that retarded triple-quote that Discord has trained me to do.
Actually, I meant that one could use almost all (maybe all?) of Doom's mechanics in the Quake engine.
Well There Is Always GZDoom
AKA, I wanna be like Quake soooooo bad so I completely ripped off quakes console and added features like 3d model support and 3d floors, and oh yeah real-time dynamic point lights and spotlights and software AO (but not baked AO/dirtmaps obviously because we don't want no potato scrubs having actual good lighting), and build engine portals, and mirrors, and wall/floor reflectiveness, and OH YEAH, 4k truecolor texture support with PBR materials like specular and bumpmaps because obviously that's what you want in a game over 25 years old clearly. And the physics are different so good fucking luck playing your old demos back with it ;) ;)
What's All This Then...
Wait so Doom actually has bump mapping now?
That's just ridiculous.
I think I've seen a few maps using the portals and they actually look really cool, from a level design perspective I guess.