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Mapping For The New Age
I want to present for discussion some things that I have discussed with others and even here for possible consideration now or in the future.

These are new thoughts based on problems that have surfaced, challenges and new ideas.

1. Maps using solely shareware Quake monsters plus any others developed in expansion packs.

Reason: Right now, most maps can only be used by users of registered Quake. Registered Quake at the moment cannot be purchased new anywhere on the planet. (The ID store is being revamped, could be months).

The shareware monsters:

Knights (Swords only kind)

Registered monsters:

Hell Knights

This way at least a pool of custom maps could legally be tried by someone who has shareware Quake for free.

Additional monsters like the Quoth characters or the FC1 or Lunaran badguys could be used as well.

The reason I bring this up is that there is a package called FreeQuake which is a legal distribution of the shareware install plus some more modern engines.

This project was started over 1 year ago, back when the whole QuakeOne team was rather oblivious to single player.

Beginning in May there will be a major push of the package as we will have more compatible servers online.

It would be nice to have some custom maps that do not use pak1 monsters so downloaders could experience the newer aspect of single player as well, and if so, we'd include engines more geared to single player in the install list.

2. Gateway Teleporter Maps

Screenshot of the idea.

3. All-Time Best Map Packs

This doesn't really require anything special since many of the license agreements would permit it. Although I'm still surprised there isn't one. Would be really cool if combined with #2.

I have 4 other categories of thought, one was the effortless sampling of single player maps via a Quakeworld coop server.

The other 3 ideas, there isn't much sense talking about them because they require a huge amount of work.

Last, but not least, are their any mappers willing to volunteer some of their maps for a pilot project to create a small self-installing package of no more than 10 custom single player maps? This will be promoted at and given mention at some other sites to introduce multiplayer types to single player.

We only want to include maps where we have the backing of the author to do so, because we view that as the respectful and considerate way to do things, even in cases where the readme.txt permits or encourages redistribution without asking. In our view, you cannot be part of a community without treating others with respect and requesting dialogue.
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Nico, Actually The Thing Is ... 
... most players want Quake for multiplayer.

And the new servers will be running 100% custom DM maps. The play is identical to the registered version. All the multiplayer components are in pak0.pak.

It's going to be slamdunk from that aspect, because as a legal set of downloads, it can be talked about freely, etc. The new engines like JoeQuake/Qrack offer the eye candy (<- hate that word) that would offer it appeal.

Most of the multiplayer types don't care about single player, but that might be different if it were available in combination with the main download.

The stereotype of Quake is the standard old maps. 
I'm sure yuo can find it somewhere if you really want to buy it even if you might have to buy it bundled with q2 and q3, soon there will probably q1-q4 packs... 
New age mapping! I was half expecting some sort of innovative hardware-software combo using an electronic harp to make Quake maps.

Too bad, really >:( 
Sorry there, chief! 
Sadly, I have to agree with the discussion. Although I think that 33-50% is more like 50-60%, and on some maps (like your favourite...) it's closer to 80%.

I think that eBay is the best thing to happen to the new generation of Quake lovers... I managed to get 2 copies there (the 2nd copy came with both mission packs) fairly cheaply... 
I agree. Really enforcers, vores and hell knights are 3 of the most fun bad guys in Quake. And pretty essential to most types of maps.

Although Trinca's map doesn't seem to use many of them.

I think I have another idea that will work, I am going to run a program against a mass number of maps and see what maps have the LEAST or NONE of these characters.

Then I'll take a look at the results.

There HAVE to be some existing maps that do not use many or any of these monsters.

Granted, it will be few. Also, I'm going to check with some QuakeC gurus about an entity translation progs.dat or maybe investigating the use of OpenQuartz.

My goal is just for there to be a few quality maps compatible someway, somehow with shareware to give those users a taste of some good single player experience.

Something Necros said gave me the idea, so this thread wasn't a loss ;)

Something good DID come from it. 
Hellknights And Vores 
Hellknights and Vores are essential to ramping up the difficulty level ever so gradually in your map. You're doing away with a vital aspect of the level design balance by restricting the mapper from using them.

Especially vores because you probably have to do the most "thinking" when it comes to an encounter in a fairly small space with a vore. 
If you've found a way to get shareware Quake to run with custom maps and progs.dat, then just create a mod that replaces Enforcers with Grunts, Death Knights with Knights, Vores with...uh...Fiends? Etc. etc. and distribute that to swQuakers. Easiest thing in the world. 
well Baker, if you are targetting Free Quake at multiplayer users, then why were you asking about SP maps using only shareware content?

*scratches head* 
Asaki / Nico 
Asaki ... I'm investigating that. Good replacement suggestions, btw.

Nico ... please read all of my recent posts in their entirety ... Thanks in advance! 
How Much 
is ID charging for rights to q1 content? 
I've thought about starting an effort to petition ID about the pak1.pak problem, maybe you've already seen my comments on other boards about that?

Do you think that is something that would be a worthwhile effort?

See, the thing is, if ID would do special limited licensing of pak1.pak that was wide enough that sp-developers/multiplayer could continue ...

But I don't see ID software making any large bucks out of licensing Quake 1? Would they care about $1000 to $5000?

I dunno ... the workarounds all suck. 
Hellknights And Vores Suck Mostly 
HKs have so much health and for some reason mappers have decided you always encounter them with the supershotgun and it's then shoot-back up-shoot-back up ... yawn. They have so much health it's stupid.

And vores are generally placed so that you pop your head out from behind a corner, shoot some nails or rockets or grenades, go back, wait for the ball to explode on a wall, come out again... and repeat and repeat.

These monsters tend to be better when placed on areas where you have to constantly move and use your brain to avoid their attacks, but it is rarely done so even by the most distinguished mappers. ?!

Enforcers, on the other hand, are generally fun. :) They don't have too much hitpoints so it doesn't become boring, they give some ammo and you can somewhat dodge their projectiles, but they're so fast that it ain't easy. They tend to shoot their own a lot too. :P

If I'd recommend free things, I'd say develop something from Quoth. It's got top-notch monsters and textures, both visually and gameplaywise. I talked about this way back but everybody was like "fuck you". 
how much more do you need than a player model, some weapon and armor models, and of course new sounds. 
i hope didn't tell you to go fuck yourself last time, as that's a really good idea. Take something like Quoth, and expand it to something that can be downloaded stand-alone.

If it was good enough it could give a real boost to the SP Quake community.

I'd definitely be up for helping out in a project like this in some way, be it mapping or graphics stuff.

We need to know if this is feasible though. How much needs to be redone? Is there much coding involved? What project should be worked on? I agree Quoth is a good one. The Quoth boys would have to give the thumbs up, of course.

Well worth thinking about... 
Monster Translator 
I think the Quoth characters would make an excellent basis for replacement characters in monster translator code.

I'll probably revisit this as things progress.

A monster translator progs.dat could make any standalone map feasible.

But ... a great deal of work would have to be done :( 
"I talked about this way back but everybody was like "fuck you".

HEhe, it does seem like these sorts of things take a tremendous amount of "activation energy".

I quit playing Quake in early 2004 and figured it would not be around for much longer.

When I returned, ironically some seeds I had planted had grown in big, strong oak trees.

Patience is a virtue ;) 
These monsters tend to be better when placed on areas where you have to constantly move and use your brain to avoid their attacks, but it is rarely done so even by the most distinguished mappers. ?!

iirc, the last map vondur made (i think it was vondur?) had a nice end combat with some vores in an area with little cover. that was quite fun :) 
I Disrespect Vores... 
... I walk right up to them, point blank, and let them share the splash damage of their own attacks. 
Amen, Brother Baker, Amen. 
I walk right up to them, point blank, and let them share the splash damage of their own attacks. 
if there was a noir version quake ever, that would have to be part of the voiceover. 
Quake Noir, now there's a movie I'd go to see. 
Vore:free To A Good Home 
If you change your mind about the vore and decide you want one in the pack, then you might want to take a look at this one.
It's essentially a remake of the original vore at a slightly higher polycount, designed to look like the original - as opposed to some of the existing openquake models. It has seen the light of day on this forum on a previous occasion, but on seeing this topic I had another look at it, redid all the animations and tweaked the skin/mesh in a few places. So take a look, feedback welcomed.

I suppose there's still a kind of copyright issue with this model if id were fussy. Although it was constructed from scratch, it's very obviously derived from the design of the original. Of course, if it's gonna be functional without code changes the animation has to be pretty similar, but I guess it doesn't excuse the rest of the model. Anyhow, the thread reminded me I never did anything with the model, so here it is. 
Baker loves fat women 
not bad, actually.

the walk animation looks pretty good as does pain, but there's something about the death anim that looks a little stiff... i'm not sure though, and i can't put my finger on it. :\

also, i'd say the arms are a little too beefy, and i'd just scale those down a bit.

but yeah, a pretty good remake of the original. :)

but yeah, definatly see what you're saying... if i didn't look closely, i might not notice the difference. :x 
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