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Evspq1 - A Subtle Dagger
My first smallish-linear-style level. Q1 single player. More to come from me in the future.

http://www.fileplanet.com/dl.aspx?sda/maps/evspq1.zip


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Moderator's Notice: due to lack of screens I'd add from the first glance at the map that this is an oldkool runic map made with speedrunning in mind. Looks like your average id level.
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Addendum To Moderator's Notice. 
Although the map was made by a great speedrunner and it was first posted on SDA it's not actually a speedrunning map. It's a single player map.

Don't let the fact that all speedrunners are evil and smell funny discourage you from giving Evan some feedback on his first map.

Sorry for the intrusion. I'll go back to cleaning out my rectum with your toothbrush now... 
... 
I'd add from the first glance at the map that this is a festering camel turd of a map. 
Sigh Well 
It'd be really helpful for everyone to have a couple of screens and a bit wider map' description done by author.

Sometimes it's hard to moderate ;) 
... 
Download link doesn't work for me 
Leviathan 
I had to click the link twice. The first time there was an error, but it worked the second time. 
Screenies + Mini-Review 
First, the screenies:
http://rpg.spawnpoint.org/images/blah/evspq1_1.jpg
http://rpg.spawnpoint.org/images/blah/evspq1_2.jpg
http://rpg.spawnpoint.org/images/blah/evspq1_3.jpg

And now the review, LvL style:
I played on skill 2 (hard), and completed the map in just under 10 minutes. The map was longer than I expected it to be, but it was also a lot easier. There were a few traps and suprises, but despite that I only needed to use one health pack. There are five secrets, of which I found none; though I did accidentally opened one, but it closed before I could get inside. Visuals ranged from mediocre to decent (see the shots -- I tried to take shots that represented the map), but were on average about the same as id maps. Lighting was extremely dark in a few spots, and one time I couldn't see that there were stairs to go up. Navigation was straightforward with some backtracking, but it was done well overall. There is one side area that you are required to visit, but other than that there are no route choices or non-linearity.

Overall, I thought it was worth getting, but it is fairly short and too easy (at least on hard skill). The author has a lot of potential, and I'm looking forward to EVSPQ2. 
Oh 
I should also mention that ammo is in short supply. I finished the map with 32 nails and my axe.

Also, I'd like to point out that although the level of detail is similar to id maps, the visuals are indeed different. And I don't just mean the detailing style. id maps usually have interesting and nice room design, and a good sense of proportion. This map uses a bit too much of the Big-Rectangular-Box room design style. 
Er... 
RPG... you said in one part of that review that the map was 10 mins long, which was longer than expected... and then later said it was too short...? make up your mind. 
Additional Information 
Thought I'd share a little more information about my level. It's your standard linear style runic level of fairly easy skill. There are five total secrets which can be found by watching this demo:

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~sda/demo.pl?nightmare/ev1_203.dz

So is it a 'festering camel turd'? Well, it's not exactly oblivion.bsp but I wouldn't say it's a terrible map being my first piece of work. I tried to keep the level very neat and clean looking when it came to texture placement - architechture and map proportion is still something I'm working on. Thus the box look to the rooms.

I am currently working on EVSPQ2, which is in my opinion, a big improvement over part 1. It features a bigger and more curved design. I will have some screen shots up of part 2 as soon as I find a place to host them.

I appreciate the helpful feedback so far everyone :) 
Nice Map 
gameplay-wise. The end-battle was an easy and fun exercise in starting monster in-fighting.

Visually, the architecture is nice but lighting is way too dark.

Technically, the map has surprisingly many leaks (FYI, entities like doors don't seal the map), is boxed and has only fast lighting (possibly fastvised also due to being boxed).

Also, you should check for items falling out of the map at load time. Move them to a better position or delete them altogether.

Looking forward to the next map! 
Scampie 
I dislike getting into semantics, I was misunderstood, so here goes.

Yes, the map is longer than I expected. Saying this is in reference to my own preconceived notions. There are plenty of speedmaps that have 50 monsters; and those are maps that don't have hoard combat. I think of a 50 monster map as being really quite short. This one is short, but not THAT short.

No, I did not say it was "too short." I said it was "fairly short." Again, semantics. You interpretted my statement to mean something I did not intend. Note that I said this in the summary paragraph, and thus I was describing the general characteristics of the map.

Basically, I meant that it was shorter than most maps because it has about 50 monsters, but it was longer than most 50-monster maps are. Perhaps I should have just said, "it's small."

P.S. Yes, I already regret taking the flame bait. 
Compiling Tools 
Thanks aguirRe. And RPG for the screenshots and review.

I am a noob when it comes to bsp-technicality :) I am using the qbsp, light, vis (now rvis) that came with Qoole 2.50. Does anyone know where I could go to get the latest & greatest compiling tools? Thanks a lot. 
Re: Compiling Tools 
I assume windlash = Evan Wagner?

aguiRe develops some really great compiling tools. A lot of people here use them. His site is here: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k 
Re: Compiling Tools 
Thank you. And your assumption was correct also. 
Er.. 
that wasn't flame bait RPG... 10 mins is a fairly decent length for a map IMO. It just seemed strange to me that you would call it 10 mins long, then say it was short. 
Well 
my first glance didn't let me down. it's indeed oldkool-ish map. and it's nice.
for me it was enough ammo/health, i didn't die etc. gameplay is average, nothing spectacular there. architecture is simple, some textures applied rather weird tho: i.e. floor tex on the walls, etc.
i got a good laugh when just spawned in the map and observed rocks nearby, they looked really fun. this is first time i see such a simplistic rocks design :)
overall: strong average oldskool mappage.
keep on, Evan :) 
Congrats On Getting A Map Done Windlash 
looks quite decent, RPG you rock for posting shots and reviewing already 
Good Stuff, Evan 
I will have a review up soon at my site:

http://www.planetquake.com/underworld/

also evan [and any other mapper, ever!] ignore anything bad shambler says about your map, its just his "sense of humor".

I have also just discovered RPG'S "condensed speedmap" episode which i may be able to review, not sure yet, maybe just a news post. 
UWF 
I think Scampie wants to hold off on a news post for that until he gets the Speedmap Site done, and then have a post for all the updated maps at once. Dunno when that will be. I'd like to see a review of the episode, though.

Okay, half the posts in this thread are from me. I'm going to stop now. 
RPG 
check your email. 
Well Done Evan 
I took 11 minutes and I did die twice: I still had the Autumn Haunting new monsters etc, which took me by surprise.

Good map and I look forward to your next one. 
Screenshots 
I've taken the liberty to use Evan's map to display one of my later Light features, the _anglesense key.

The three screenshots below show the end battle area with the upper lights having the _anglesense key set to 0, 0.5 and 1 respectively.

0 is the brightest (no angle sensitivity at all), 0.5 is the old default and 1 is the darkest (full angle sensitivity). Notice the difference in light levels on the different faces depending on their angle against the lights.

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/sense00.jpg
http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/sense05.jpg
http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/sense10.jpg 
 
I have two major comments to make. First, unavoidable fall damage is lame. It kills players who are on their last legs but still should have a chance. Second, in a map with limited ammo, having knights on the pillars makes it possible to not be able to finish the map. IIRC, the knights aren't going to come down so that you can use the axe, but their slow ass projectiles take a week and a half to cross the distance, so the map ends in a draw.

Also, there was a dead end where the nail gun was. It would have been nice to have some monsters spawn back the way you came so you have something to do on your way back. 
Yoink 
its very good for a first map, some areas even reminded me of dazsp1, my first (released) map! :)

Keep it up, looking forward to seeing the next one, and yeah Vondur has a point, try to make the rocks look a little nicer =) 
Falling Damage 
pushplay: where was there unavoidable falling damage? If your refering to the lowered-altar part, you can actually avoid damage, simply land ontop of the cross instead of the altar itself. As for the ending pillars & lack of ammo, good point, I will remember this in the future. Thanks for the feedback. 
Evspq2 - Betrayal Is A Symptom 
 
too dark 
I'll Hold Back 
Pretty interesting classic Quake base map, worked for me. Maybe a bit short of ammo (not many shells), or maybe that's what I used up looking for secrets. I also think the secrets are excessively rewarding, it would have been tough and even shorter of ammo without finding them, although this was hard diff... I took 21 mins.

also evan [and any other mapper, ever!] ignore anything bad shambler says about your map, its just his "sense of humor".

Yep, but even if the one it is aimed at always knows this, I can't see negatism like that being a good thing, especially since it's usually or always aimed at new or upcoming mappers. 
Re: I'll Hold Back 
Thanks spentron. The secrets were overly rewarding for 100% nightmare runs :) I tried to balance it out a little, with the pentagram secret replaced by a super nailgun on easy skill. But if you find them all I doubt you'd lose a health point on this map :)

I don't think Shambler meant any hard. I know him from way back in the day, and doubt he would greet me again like that after all these years :) 
Re: Falling Damage 
I couldn't see the cross until I had landed. 
Re: Falling Damage 
ever tried saving your game pushplay? ;)

seriously though, that's just a minor thing and not really worth complaining about (imo of course).

good level evan, it gave me a few minutes of fun playing time. I'm looking forward to new levels with more complex architechture. 
Nice. 
Nice first map windlash, except for the door entities being see-thru and the ogres being positioned below the player in most cases, where they are least effective. But the architecture was modest but decently done, and now I'm REALLY wanting to do another metal/runic/whatever map =) 
The 2nd Map 
looks really nice too. I love that arch in the first couple of shots, that just looks cool the way it's curvy at the edges too. 
This Is The Kind Of Map That Inspires Me 
Simple, yet effective. I liked it, great for a nice blast, and the atmosphere was great. Very oldskool feeling. Just needs some sharpening up on the architecture and you're onto a winning stretch. I couldn't interest you in this little tut by any chance? http://xen.quakepit.com/tut1.htm ..remember, big bold angles be the key!

Nice job.. would like more maps like this :-) 
Gah 
I think I would've stopped at step 3 in that tutorial... 
 
I was at first put off by the screenshots, I didn't wanna try it. But I tried anyway, and I would agree it's near id quality. I think it shows potential so I'm interested in your 2nd (and so on) map as well. I finished it 9:20, because I got down to just the ax during a shotgun/fire trade between the first hellknight on the pillar. I then backtracked the map in search of any ammo I may have missed, only to find none. I had to use impulse 9. A bug which is most likely just my system was I could see through some closed doors, what was beyond them.

I think this is a good start though, keep going. 
Another Tutorial 
This tutorial is more vague, and it may be a little below you, windlash, but you might want to check it out. I find I do most of the stuff suggested in the article without thinking about it, but it's interesting to see it put into words.

http://www.notthisway.com/writing/counterpoint.shtml 
Review Posted 
Plus 
definitly good to see an oldskool id map, make the gameplay more exciting and harder and greats things may happen! :) 
Good Article R.P.G. 
takes me back to my hair band days (then I discovered Helmet, shaved my head, and learned to snarl and not to smile. I was developing a beer gut anyway, so the Bon Jovi approach wasn't working out) when I studied Classical Guitar, taking in a ton of Villa-Lobos, Bach, Sor, Paganini and the like, like every other Satriani wannabe. The only problem was, the better I got at classical the worst I sucked at rock.

Loved how the article was text book perfect in the language, but then in note 5 there,

'5) No, I can not transport you 15 minutes back in time in order to regain the 15 minutes you "f***ing wasted reading this pile of sh*t!" '

That's classic! Ah, the times we live in. 
Thanks Everyone 
I had no idea the Quake mapping scene was still this much alive :) I've already looked through the tutorials and am learning a lot. Thanks once again for the feedback everyone, I can't wait to make more levels. 
Shhhhhh! 
"I had no idea the Quake mapping scene was still this much alive"

Quiet! More than a whisper and we might all vanish =) Quake will never die unless we let it, I geuss "we" is pretty accurate as I dont know of any other large communities still mapping for quake. 
Somehow Though 
I have the feeling that on Zanzibar stands several proud men who can perform bsp miracles that would humble even the best of us on decade old PIIs; and in the Mongolian Steppes there are artist who possess a computer system any of us would envy from wence they recieved from kindly Bahrain born Strangers who requested nothing more than the missile the Soviets* left in the ground just outside the village decades ago at the height of tensions with China. These young, unsung visionaries have built a phantasia of several dozen interconnected levels whose designs are more true to the vision of H. P Lovecraft than anything we have yet to see (a dogeared copy of The Lurking Fear and other stories was retained from the last tasty missionary who ventured there in the dead of winter**).

But for the limitations of current telecommunications technology, we can only infer the existence of our brother communities in Quake.

*Not saying they were the only ones with an irresponsable foreign policy; those stinger missiles we gave the Afghanies have come back to bite us on the ass, eh?
** I know, the last recorded case of cannabalism in Mongolia was in 1972, but I neaded to pep the story up a bit. 
Wow 
Think of all the time you spent writing that you could have spent mapping instead... But still it was very entertaining to read ^_^ 
Om 
windlash: shots of that second map look like an improvement already. try to break up the flat walls a bit, that would help. Also, I personally like the dark and moody lighting very much, it looks fine on my monitor.

headthump: maybe if the entire quake community got together we could actually do that. nah that'd never happen... would it? 
Hmm 
ignore anything bad shambler says about your map, its just his "sense of humor".

Yes, heaven forbid they should listen to someone with years of playing/reviewing Q1SP custom maps.

If you don't know your stuff sucks, how the hell will you improve? 
MmH 
Regardless of how many years of experience you have "this is a festering camel turd of a map" on it's own is not a particularly helpful comment to a rookie.

"this is a festering camel turd of a map because in all my many years of playing/reviewing Q1SP custom maps I have noticed that...." could be.


Still, everyone knows Shambles contracted review-jaundice some years back so it's to be expected. Probably kindest if someone was to take him to a quiet spot with a shotgun and put him out of his misery. I wonder if it'd take 25 shotgun blasts to kill him... :-) 
Morfans 
we perform that shotgun action every day on irc, so don't worry, he's in reliable hands ;) 
 
Yes, heaven forbid they should listen to someone with years of playing/reviewing Q1SP custom maps.

If you don't know your stuff sucks, how the hell will you improve?


It really doesn't take much intelligence to distinguish between 'anything bad' (in the context of UWF's post) and constructive negative criticism. Added to the fact that Shambler wasn't being serious in the first place (I think...), your evaluation seems kinda useless.

Not that being told your map is a 'festering piece of camel turd' can help you improve in the slightest anyway... 
Hmm 
My post wasn't necessarily a defense of Shambler's post in this instance, it was far more a critism of underworldfan's comment of 'ignore anything bad said'.

Yes, while you can read that to mean 'ignore stupid flame bait insults', it is the lack of differentiation on underworldfan's (and others') part that leads to nothing but mindless praise, which is even worse than mindless insult. 
You Are Correct Nonentity 
in your above post.

I indeed should have said 'ignore stupid flame bait insults', especially from shambler, becuase he has done them a million times, and quite frankly they are pointless, tiresome, and reflect only badly on him.

Sepcifically regarding map reviews: Constructive criticsm is good, so is encouragement [which is not "mindless praise"]. Its all about balance. 
Evan - Please Heed My Advice 
I have posted on this subject and it must seem like boilerplate now but my message to any mapper out there is to stay away from Qoole - period. Find a better editor - I switched to Worldcraft after putting what must have been a few hundred hours into Qoole. Qoole has internal bugs and it's floating point calculations result in maps that are different in the BSP then what appears in the editor. Qoole's bugs result in microleaks and brush seams galore that cause no end of compile errors. Try this - make some tricky geometry (conical roofs, complex gables, outdoor terrain, etc.) and export a .map file. Read that .map file in. See the errors? Vertices are not where you expect them to be. If your map is boxy - it's somewhat Qoole friendly. If you are going more curvy for your 2nd map - switch editors now or prepare to hate mapping. I'd hate to think that some hard working mappers abandon potentially good maps because thier tools aren't up to the job.

BTW - I paid and registered Qoole - that's how much I liked it. It had some nice interface features and I learned mapping on it. Only after finishing a 2100 brush map that was not VISable did I learn about my editor's shortcomings.

Haven't played your map yet but thumbs up for releasing it. 
Hmm 
Personally I'd reccomend Radiant, but the overall point remains, have a play with editors and find one you like, 'cos Qoole 'blows goats' 
Wow I Missed Out On A Flame War 
Because I was mapping!! The irony, all right, that word is getting old, the destitution of it all!!! I stay out of here on purpose to get some things done and you guys have the most fun looking flame war I have seen since I started coming in here :( 
Just To Clarify 
what Scragbait said. Qoole isn't bad because it's using floats (probably all editors and definitely all compilers use it internally), it's bad because it just chops off the fractional parts of the floats (i.e. 3.1415 becomes 3) before writing integers to the map file.

This causes massive accuracy loss and all non-axial planes (and even some axial) will get warped one way or another. In a big map this will cause a lot of unnecessary grief.

Windlash, please consider changing editor to a better one, there are several, e.g. WC 1.6, QuArK 6.3.0 and GtkRadiant (needs some special setup and conversion, though). 
Qoole And More Screenshots 
Qoole does have a few, rather annoying, bugs. But I have figured out ways around the problems that stand in the way of my mapping. I may try another editor soon enough anyways though.

Here are some more pictures of evspq2. Just worked on it 10 hours straight and now about 50% done with it.

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_10.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_11.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_12.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_13.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_14.jpg

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/misc/evspq2_15.jpg

Some people say the pictures look too dark, some say they look fine. Sorry if they look too dark :( 
Good Going Windlash 
I find that when there are areas in my map that I intentionally want dark that as long as the intended path in front of the player is lit they will have little problem getting through. I hate walking around blind almost as much as I hate jump oriented puzzles. 
 
They are very dark, I can't tell what's there. I'd have to save and brighten them and I can't be arsed ;). I'll play it when it's out. It could be my monitor, but mine is plenty bright and all. Maybe yours is brighter, or that map really IS dark. 
 
Do yourself a favor and learn a better editor, you will thank yourself later. The excellance of Worldcraft or pure power and eligence of Radiant FAR outweigh Qoole's single saving grave of a nice UI. I used Qoole for Q1 and Q2 mapping from when 2.5 was first released until just before Q3 came out, and have never regreted learning better editors. 
The Only Real Qoole Workaround... 
...is to completely rewrite the code to make it as good as WC, Quark, BSP or GTKRadient. Making brushes overlap etc. to fix leaks is no fun and precision building requires a precision tool. Boxing a level to prevent leaks will draw boos here since I know that mappers like to noclip and check on people's construction techniques (after playing through of course.) I had another mapping friend who refused to change because he found WC too difficult. His maps always leaked and time which could be spent creating was spent troubleshooting instead. I went through the pain of transition and it was painful but I have no regrets at all. Your 2nd map is not lost - just export your .map into a new editor.

I don't know about the other editors mentioned but WC's visgroups are way better then Qoole's Scope-Up : Scope-Down function. I depend very much on an editor's ability to allow selective display. You can also transfer brushes and ents from one visgroup to another. The Scope function requires ungrouping and regrouping since it's less flexible.

I played your map and enjoyed it. It is well made and pretty nice looking. A nice Quake fix in these lean times. I spent a lot more time in it looking for secrets and found 4/5. Finding the 5th is driving me nuts. Two secrets I found during my first pass through. The funky shaped teleport was neat and original and I liked the drop-down cross. Texture work was nice and aligned too. You've already read comments on your rocks and outdoor terrain skills are just one of those things that will need developement (as does my rock work.) It was worth releasing an I look forwards to your next map.

On a side note, the lava looks great in FitzQuake0.75. Maybe it looked just as good in the other versions but it is pretty. 
About Qoole 
I have always had a strange problem with Qoole and some of my brushes ending up strangely deformed inside the actual level when playing. I found out this only happens when I cut and paste intricate brush groups, so if I want to make four of something rather complex I end up now having to make all of them individually to avoid this. Other than that problem and the occasional program crash - I really haven't noticed anything restrictive or limiting about Qoole.

However, I guess my options would be limited to Radiant or Worldcraft. What would be the definate way to go? Is QUEST a good editor? I've noticed Iikka made his maps with that editor and was curious what you guys thought of it. 
About Quest 
In the very early years of mapping, it seemed that the best maps were made with Quest and the best mappers of the time used it. As time went on, Worldcraft developed and gained dominance. In the Q1 mapping scene, WC seems to be the most popular editor although this may be more a case of timing and of it being the most versatile tool of its time. Many recent and excellent Q1 maps are made with WC. Perhaps GTKRadient is the statte of the art today - I don't know. You could download several editors and try them out. There's Quark and BSP as well. Editors like Thred, Quest, Toe-Tag and others may be outdated since developement could have stopped well before the mapping scene got up to speed. 
Also 
There's Tread, but development has stopped on it. I don't know if there are any lingering problems, or if it is as suitable for making maps as WC and Radiant. 
As A Gtkr Fan, 
i'd say go for gtkr. ;)

seriously though, gtkr (and wc both) are powerful editors, and the safeness of the mapping you get from them is really soothing to the soul.

i know the same feeling you're going through. i used to use quark to map, and i honestly thought it was the greatest map editor out there. now that i've moved on, i can do things i never would have been able to do in quark, and do the things i was doing in a fraction of the time.

there's a good reason both gtkr and wc are popular. :) 
Errrr... 
also wanted to say that, although the screenshots are a bit dark for me, the brushwork that i can see looks really good. (i haven't played your first map yet, so i can't compare)
you may try to get a bit more contrast out of the lighting with some more apparent shadows and more 'forceful' sourced lighting. 
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