I haven't forgotten about this thread. I check it from time to time. I had this thread as a means of letting people put their 2 cents in and toss thoughts around. Never misinterpret my silence or absence as meaning nothing is happening :p

I updated the nehahra webpage at:

http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra

... and I have decided (firmly) to ditch COOP and DEATHMATCH. Absent of multiplayer, I have that much more room to concentrate on the single player game experience.

I also lean against having in-level cutscenes or even in-between level scenes. My thoughts are ... perhaps ... one short intro which gets right into the meat of the story without pussy-footing around. 

:)

also, although a short intro does start everything off fast, you can get more depth via longer intro... just 0.02. 

Hi!

And: Neh Nekkid plz kthx.

P.S. Please ask aguiRe to include a cvar to change particle effects back to the way they were in GLQuake. And make Phil the hero! 

its nice to hear this is still in your thoughts, mindcrime.

You should make it your overall project goal to make an even better single player epxerience than the superb Nehahra. =) 

I kinda forgot about the Nehahra nekkid thing ...

As for long intros ... I take a lesson from my experience with Nehahra. Any long dems will be separate, related but not mandatory, things. Some people dig watching quake movies or cinematics. Some people just want to play.

The 3 demo intro to the Nehahra game, between nehstart and neh1m1, should have been separate, as Seal of Nehahra was separate...

And I've begun writing a script for a pure Ph1l movie ... just for shits and giggles ... that'd sure be a fun project to undertake... 

or, if possible, make skipping the intro as simple as pressing a key or something like that... don't know if that's possible with demos though. :\ 

I've had a range of emails regarding Nehahra and how I would 'upgrade' it. One thing I have to be careful about is using my free time wisely. In creating Nehahra (aside from the problem of being a newbie at just about every aspect of modding) my resources were divided by too many projects at once, even if they all were Nehahra related.

When I started Nehahra (back before it even had a name) I was just doing a lot of tinkering and it began to grow into *something*. Working on it alone, my mental resources were divided between game code, models, sounds, skins (hah, I think it's of no surprise to anyone that I'm no artist...) ... and hey, that's a lot of stuff to juggle, that's a lot of hats to have to wear. So let's be modest and say that was 3 hats to wear, 3 balls to juggle.

I approached mappers when I had something to show and many came onboard when Nehahra was only a fraction of what it became. So the code, the models, the sounds, everything, was still a work-in-progress. Then I had to play the part of team leader and juggle the 'administerial ball' and 'p1mpmaster ball' for lack of better terms that my foggy mind cannot come up with. Organizing and overseeing a team is a big hat to wear. So call that 5 balls to juggle.

Then the movie ... all while everything else was in development ... I wrote it, coded it, shot it, did the voice acting.. how many balls are we up to now? I dunno. But you get my point.

I had too many balls! (HAHA!)

Hence, my firm decision not to bring mappers into Obscurus until the game is virtually done on my end (not that'll be adverse to adding some extras ... and I'm certain to have lots of bugs to fix... bugs are insidious things).

Anyway, so now I see my focus splintering again ... Obscurus ... Nehahra improvements ... cinematic ventures ... This is not only dangerous but likely to cause delay on all of the above.

The thought I had tonight was that Obscurus ... is a bit like an "off-shoot" from Nehahra. A few of the monsters I have in the progs/ directory (none of the monsters I have running in the game yet though) are Nehahra monsters redone, higher polygon, not even based on the original models...

My thought was, well, why not make the Nehahra off-shoot a tad stronger and bring the rest of the Nehahra monsters into Obscurus. That way, I'm technically working on both simultaneously. So while I might be working on a new Tsemoch for Obscurus (which I'm not at this moment, it's just an example)... it will also replace the Tsemoch in nehahra. We're talking models and animation frames (the Obscurus versions will have many more).

In terms of code, I think I should fix the things that are broke in Nehahra, but I don't think changing the AI or gameplay would be a good idea. Some people didn't dig the enhanced 'combat AI' in Nehahra (not that I can understand this, I like to be tense when playing a game and often desperate, basically I enjoy being in a world of shit ... it gets the adrenaline flowin') BUT some of the emails I've gotten... and some of the sentiments I've gotten in the past ... were... some people like Nehahra just as it is (AI wise). They don't want a chance in gameplay.

And after 4 years of Nehahra being the way it is, perhaps the gameplay is something I should leave.

The models however can be improved. If I bring on in some of my old monster friends from Nehahra into Ob, I'll be justified in working on them. Haha! (Or will I?)

The one thing I will not do is bring in the Quake monsters into Obscurus ... Not on the principle that Ob would then cease to be a TC ... and not even in reckoning that the differences in the Quake models versus Ob models would be too stark and won't go all too well together ... (both of which are true)

But because ... man ... the original baddies.. I don't want to touch. I don't want to try making a better fiend or shambler ... In Nehahra I added extra animations, that's different. I even used a few as bases as kinda-sorta-new ones (new variations), but the original monsters I did NOT touch visually.

That would be like defiling a holy shrine ...

(I did not/do not feel the same way about their AI itself, of course ... but if I had, Nehahra wouldn't be what it is... UNIQUE.)

Anyway, as usual, as is the purpose of this thread, I welcome commentary... 

I thought obscurus was going to be more a 'steampunky' theme, rather than an offshoot of nehahra. I dont see that you could use too much of the nehahra monsters if that was still the case.

As for updating models etc for nehahra, I dont really think that's all that worthwhile an idea. Like you said, it's 4 years old. Anyone that likes it will already have it, the new models arent really going to be a big deal. Just put your improved modelling/skinning/animating skills to use in making Obscurus better.

Also, there's a modeller called Dylan who's made some imrpessive looking stuff on display in the Arcane Wizard thread. Considering him to lower the ball load might be an idea. 

new models for the neh monsters wouldn't be amiss... some of those models were terrible even though they were well executed... 

I referenced it before as a kind of QUASI-steampunk-industrial ... I don't know if that still holds ... I go where the inspiration is and the content that's been coming ... well, it's kinda Quakey :D 

Go where the inspiration is, but I'm personally more interested in Obscurus. 

Still chewing on it... though I confess that I probably ought to keep my eyes on the Obscurus ball and not concern myself with any Nehahra revamps (I can revamp Nehahra whenever ... it'll always be there ... and there ain't exactly a public outcry to do so...)

These thoughts gravitating towards Nehahra are probably attributed to looking back through the eyes of experience. That "Damn, I could do that so much better now."

I know when I look back on old writing I feel that way. Hell, the book I finished just after Nehahra has seen many rewrites since. I'm always on the look-out for ways to make it better. Perhaps however that the writer's "rewrite" mentality does not lend (or at least *should not*) lend itself to Quakey things!

One of the things I like about threads like this is that when I have absurd impulses, and share said impulses, there are folks around to give me perspective on it :D 

Are the PQ/Gamespy email servers down? I've received email reject/delay messages over the last seven hours. 

I agree with you Mindcrime on that subject. The more cagey you can make the monsters without manipulating the hit point, armor and damage factors the more satisfying it is to me as a player when I plow through them. Honestly, I did not find the Nehara creatures to be too difficult and I am by no means l33t in those respects. 

Hehe, Headthump, I play Nehahra on Nightmare most of the time. I never go lower than Hard (and I usually play on hard when I'm not feeling up to par...)

Of course, my desire is to embellish on a Social AI ... not just the combat AI (though in terms of combat, it might make for 'orchestrated' attacks ... group combat where monsters coordinate ... as opposed to monsters *seeming* to coordinate merely because they share the same dispositions). 

here is a sight with some screen shots of some of my work, my only beef would be getting in a project that allows me no artistic liberty in character design...

http://buckmontgomery.tripod.com/models/index.album?i=1 

doesn't use the mouse when he plays nehahra.... 

Some very nice model work there. Very in keeping with the Quake style. Impressive. 

Ditto that, dylan =D 

Forgive me if I get long-winded and zony ... I've got a bug of some kind and my brain is a haze.

Dylan: I've seen your work before. It's good stuff. As for artistic liberty ... well, this here's the deal ... I work a little differently than most. I wouldn't say HEY DYLAN WHY DON'T YOU MAKE ME *such and such* a monster with this-or-that detail. That's not to say that we couldn't have some discussion about monsters and modelling in general. A more likely scenario than this would be ... if you want to contribute ... you might send me some models and I'd give them all a sharp look. If a model inspires me, I'll want to do more with it ... and I'll want to write code for it. It could be a model with animation, could be just a base model (which might inspire me to animate it if you don't)... Basically, it would be a pick and choose thing from my end ... at first ... first deciding if I like the model, then deciding if the monster is right or will fit in with Obscurus. At any rate, feel free to email me at any time ... show me some stuff ... and we might get some dialogue going...

Okay ... in other news ... I made an update to the Nehahra page about the updated Nehahra engine that Bengt Jardrup has been working on. Any of you all who dig Nehahra might want to test-drive it and see how it plays comparitively. Lot of fixes in it. Some good smoke trails (which Ender fuggered up toward the end of the development) and other fixes. The old-style HUD. spr32 bug in the nehexe.exe fixed. And others. He made the exe name glquake.exe though so keep in mind that you might want to change that filename to something else ...( I know I myself have many versions of the neh engine ... nehahra.exe nehexe.exe nehdem.exe nehahra2.exe nehahra3.exe ... heh)

what else? uhh... blegh? 

Put the original Q axe into Neh and I'll love you like a silly fanboi!

Please? 

do you have qme?if so i can send stuff in .mdo format 

yup, Dylan, I've got a few versions of QME.

mindcrime@planetquake.com 

This far into Ob development .. its destination engine is assured. It's the nehahra.exe/dpnehahra.exe/darkplaces.exe. The nehahra.exe angle of this is all the more encouraging with the work that Bengt Jardrup has been doing on the engine.

On the monster side: I've got about 30 of 'em in various stages of development. More than a dozen running around in the game. A lot of the work being done has been on the model side of things (and I cringe when I look at a lot of the Nehahra models.. not the animation as much as the crazy wandering vertexes and godawful skinmaps .. by comparison, Obscurus's skinmaps are sexxy thangs indeed).

I said before about Obscurus being an off-shoot of Nehahra/Quake, which I think people took to mean that it would be a continuation of those story-lines ... when what I meant was Obscurus sharing common ground (and occupying a place in the same universe.. or in this case, occupying a universe within the string of multiple universes that encompass quake/neh). Obscurus does maintain its Total Conversion integrity by including no original ID stuff, and a TC was what I was after, at least on a technical level (though if future mappers were to use ID textures, would this threaten its integrity of being a TC? I don't think so. I've seen a lot of things passed off as TCs. I've even read in places where Nehahra was referred to as a TC, when it was actually a PC.. albeit an involved one).

I don't mind dropping a spoiler here as it represents only a fraction of what's in Obscurus, but (some) Nehahra monsters are making a comeback. I should add that the monsters are not the same models (not even using the original models as a base, the baron being one exception but he's based on the original model from which the baron was derived). These are higher polygon guys, but they're also being adapted to the Obscurus gameplay. It is only in name and CONCEPTUALLY that they are the same. So there might be some comfort in these visual familiarities even if there are stark differences otherwise. (and because it's the Nehahra monsters wiggling their way in, the integrity of the TC is still maintained). That is not to say that ALL nehahra monsters will have a rebirth. Not all. But if any of you have favorites, you might mention them on this thread ... and if I haven't given them any thought, I might.

(An interjection: Obscurus does have ogres, but they are only loosely based on vanilla Quake's. They are not better or worse, but different and really shouldn't be expected to fill our old friend (the monster_ogre)'s shoes.)

When I say off-shoot, I'm also talking about a continuation of the Quake-esque and Nehahra-esque feel yet evolving from both into its own distinct vibe. Which brings me to the next thing:

Weapon and weapon-esque item system: This has been a sticky point of Obscurus because I wanted something different. I wanted a deviation from the FPS formula. It's not my intention to create a Nehahra 2. I want to take it to another level and break out of the FPS mold (just enough to say I did, not enough to bust the "integrity" of the FPS feel). Because of this, perhaps ambitious, want.. I've scrapped (most of) the weapons in Obscurus more times than I'd care to think about. Some weapons have stuck around, yes. Every round of re-weaponizing.. something sticks. Sooner or later, I guess, enough of it will stick and fill up the slots. CONCEPTUALLY, I don't want the ol [melee weapon, little gun, bigger gun, automatic, faster automatic, grenade, rockets, lightning and/or rail] system. To my eyes, this is a tired thing ... and if we're doomed to be stuck with this for the rest of FPS-dom, god help us. What happens in the end... well, we'll see.

An old important question still lingers. I have the capability now of going either way.

LINEAR versus NON-LINEAR.

This has been discussed time and time again on message boards and in chats or whatnot. I've devised an almost flawless system for returning to maps where you've already been and the maps being left as you left them (and furthermore, the map having changed in your absence... or more precisely, accounting for the passage of time). Like Hexen II had hubs. Ob would have one big HUB, every ob map basically would be in it. My dilemma does not come from the inherent flaws of the usage of this kind of system in the past (the most prominent that comes to my mind is... serious lulls in the action... as maps you've blown through in other games are often ghost-maps when you return...) but looking at THE BIG PICTURE.

In a completely NON-LINEAR game, what is the ultimate pay-off for the player? What is the reward for your all your efforts? That's usually "winning the game", but can you win a game that doesn't ever end? 

Because of this, I'm still reluctant to plug the system in ... I feel like a man with a finger hovering over a button that might well be a NUKE button. Once it goes in, it'll be some bitch tearing it all out (unless I comment the hell out of the code and make it ghastly to look at when I'm trying to work on it).

That's all for now. Yeah, I'm still alive and still getting work done now and then.

Though I went for a few weeks without doing anything. I put about 30 hours into it this weekend.

Any thoughts, as always, are welcome.

((RPG: P.S. Just replace the sword model with the axe in the progs schmuck :p))