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About Lovecraft,Necronomican,and Other Stuffs
Well,though I'm not western,I still have strong interest toward those ancient stories...
1.Do you believe in Demons/strange seals/etc.?
I thought most of you are followers of rational

2.Anyone has got some research(seriously) on these?
I resume that the reseacher has to learn latin, ancient greek?
Well,I Feel Sorry For My English... 
hope that's understandable...
BTW I heard that many games are influrenced by Lovecraft,right? 
We Re 
all followers of the dark unspeakable cults. 
Levelworm 
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=6157

Should provide you with interesting material. The func_ crew was at the top of its form there.

By rational, you mean us Westerners in general?

If we were rational would we have allowed our political leaders to waste our accumalitive wealth (taking a toll on our standard of living) on a war to topple the one ruthless dictator who was keeping the Middle East from exploding in the first place?

Well, I'll accept your flattery even though I feel it is a bit misplaced. 
HeadThump 
You're rational. Oil. 
 
Headthump: stop trolling already, that has nothing to do with the question/topic here.

As for Lovecraft, http://www.hplovecraft.com/ is filled with his writings and info. 
HeadThump Isn't Trolling 
Levelworm used a curious adjective to describe his impression of Westerners; I just wanted to see what he meant. After all, it is curiosity that has been addressed since Achebe's Things Fall Apart. I'm just putting his question in a broader context.

I assume he is asking a question on Western metaphysical belief. How does an interest in Lovecraftian fiction and mythos square with the western positivist mindset.

1) To most of us who are interested in Lovecraft his fiction describes a malevolent universe, and the metaphysics of demonology we don't take very seriously.
2) Lovecraftian fiction is science fantasy in that he used what was known at the time as a rationale to justify the improbable possibility of his creatures existing. 
Headthump 
this is just a personal opinion of mine, not an attack, i think your a cool guy, but:

you have a tendency to cross-reference subjects, and over complicate issues when you post.

When complex issues are being discussed, scholars try to delineate, clarify and simplify their arguments, and concentrate specifically on relevant points.

In short,
[1] focus
[2] simplify not complicate.

simplicty is actually *harder* to achieve than complexity, and also much more useful. :) 
Btw 
i could be completely wrong. :p

part of my personal preference, is that i just prefer a clear, simple style of writing and debate. 
That's Cool, Underworld Fan 
I get what you are saying. I rely on too many inferences, and assume the reader will make the connection where one subject of thought is related to another. I'll keep that in mind, avoid flames, and finish levels. A personal promise from me to you. 
Oh, Btw, UF, You've Reminded Me 
my e-mail client is working again. I'm going to vis my latest map build when I get home tonight. It is not playable yet, as the entities are embarrassingly non functional, but it will give you an idea of what I'm going for, and all of the architecture is there, though sparse in places. So look forward to an alpha .bsp later on tonight. 1:30 PM EST. at this time, around 10:00 PM if the vis is anything like the last one. 
Headthump 
please stop posting so many posts on this board, i'm bored scrolling through them all.
could you please join #terrafusion channel on gamesurge.net, you'll get proper treatment and hot auditory for your ramblings there ;) 
Vondur, 
Levelworm asked a few questions, and so far, I am the only one who has attempted to answer them. 
Quips And Sending Him 
away to other sources don't count ;-}~ 
Vondur! 
Switch to 1024x768 from 640x480 so the scrolling won't be a bitch anymore. 
Levelworm: Lovecraft: WARNING LONG AS HELL POST 
Uhm, Levelworm, I think you're seriously misunderstanding Lovecraft. I may not be as obsessed with him as Kell, but he is my favourite writer and I think I have a full understanding of his message. Lovecraft's work is a philosophical analogy; it is meant as an attack on conventional religion and Platonic ideas. Lovecraft was a materialist determinist: he believed the physical world is all that exists and that everything is predetermined and free will does not exist.

Nietzsche may have accused Plato of being a stupid asshole, but Lovecraft essentially says that he ought to be locked up. Lovecraft's reasoning is thus:

People are animals and civilization is a social structure. We deal exclusively with the physical world, and recieve no input from any other type of world. This is the philosophy of empiricism. Thus, Plato and his idea that concepts or Forms exist apart from in people's minds and that some sort of non-physical existence is possible, even that the soul itself exists as a nonphysical entity, is essentially crazy-talk. But instead of refuting the Platonic/Judeo-Christian arguements like a philosopher would, Lovecraft actually plays along with them: So say some pseudo-non-physical thing or entity came along and somehow began to interact with us human organisms: it would be horrible. Human beings fear what they do not or cannot understand, and something that is *wholly* outside of their sphere of experience, beyond their conception of reality itself, would destroy the very sanity which allows them to percieve at all.

Lovecraft's monsters exist only because man misunderstands the universe; they are not supernatural or nonphysical at all. Lovecraft makes his work more intruiging by saying that historical demonologists and occultists may have tapped into knowledge of such things, but like I said he was a strict materialist.

So basically, Vondur's first comment sums it up :)

And yes, anyone seriously researching history or historical things (occult being one such) has to learn a new language. If you're merely interested, you can just read translations and such. And no I don't know any languages besides english and a scrap or two of French (being Canadian and all, eh?), but I will have to learn one or two in order to have a Phd. 
That Was Really Interesting 
thank you Tronyn. I only managed to scratch the edge of the surface of most of that by my reading of lovecraft (not vast, but more than a normal person would ;)). 
Absolutely Excellent Tronyn, 
and probably will help Levelworm from going too far astray as well. 
To Clarify 
Most people's first impression on reading Lovecraft, myself included, is that he was drawing on an immense and dark tradition of occult and hidden religions. However, he himself said that if you look in history for this sort of stuff, there really isn't much there. Hence he invented the Necromomicon and other evil tomes just so he could have some material :) 
Thanks,Tronyn 
But...I heard that Necronomican was not created by Lovecraft,but an Arabian? I forget his name,and I'm a little...insane after watching that "in the mouth of madness".(this movie uses some Lovecraft stuffs)

BTW.I though most of westerns(no offence)are followers of rational because the shadow of Plato didn't leave this land until ShoebenHaur(right?must be wrong),or maybe as early as ****(can't spell his name,but he was once a friend of Hegel)

a third question: In western societies nowaday,do people concern with demons,god,or other supernatural stuffs?

Hoho,so much English for Wormy... 
Heh 
Lovecraft invented the Necromomicon. It was entirely his own invention (check this link:http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/necron/ if you don't believe me: it's extensive). In his works, he says the Necronomicon's author is the mad Arab "Abdul Alhazred", which is actually a name Lovecraft either invented or someone gave him as a child when he was interested in the Arabian Nights.

It's true that Plato's ideas have been entirely dominant since 2000 years after his time of writing. I would argue that even the so-called empiricists from Aristotle onwards *still* used his ideas and their political implications to a degree where the similarities are far more important than the differences.

warning: offensive opinion being served right up now :)

I think the general attitude of most Westerners these days is rather laid back: it's belief for your own convenience, sort of sitting on the fence. For example, most people want to believe in survival of consciousness after death, because they are afraid of death. They also want to believe in an objective morality, which of course they are acutely aware of (as opposed to everyone else, dumb schmucks), because this allows them to feel as if they have a meaning to their life and that they are acting well (that's important). Nietzsche called this "moral masturbation." However, they do not like to believe in a severe morality, because that means in an afterlife, if there is one, they would likely be severely punished. Thus, they take whatever is convenient for them and half-heartedly believe in it.

I think the general belief in OBJECTIVE (notice the caps there!) morality among Westerners is extremely hypocritical. If they cared about objective ideals, they wouldn't be acting as they do (materialism, ignorance, etc). However, I think that the starting point of many moralities is "I am good."

Pretty much, your average Westerner does what they want first and perhaps justifies it later; if they feel like it. Of course, there are religious nutcases here like there are anywhere else, but they certainly do not make up the majority. Among the more intelligent and free-minded people (this board being a likely-enough example) there are a wide variety of beliefs covering everything from Plato to last week's philosopher s. 
I Just Realized 
that that post makes me sounds as if I am apart from it all or somehow above it. Not the case. 
Yeah, Just To Concur With, And Summarize, Tronyn's Post 
There are a lot of people who say they believe in God, but there aren't so many that actually do. There are also a lot of people whose religion has stagnated due to cynicism. 
And... 
...by using 'Westerner' and 'rational' in the same sentence you run a high risk of creating an oxymoron. 
Easy Distrans, 
I was saying the same thing and the hall monitors started gunning for me. 
Well... 
I don't mean to hrut anyone,how can Wormy hurt humans? hehe,we always call ourselves easterners if neccesary.

To Tronyn:You've cleared my mind by telling that Necronomicon is created by Lovecraft himself,well I admit that I am a little disappointed because the book is so interesting,as an easterner I have never read these stuffs before.

But I still hope to read something old and mystery and is not faked by modern noverlists...anyone has a clue may guide my way :D 
And... 
After reading some novels by Lovecraft(Alchemist,Chuthulu,shadow,nameless city),I'm having strange thoughs over and over(damn that),I think I'dbetter have a rest :D 
Perhaps If You Are Interested 
in that sort of thing, John Dees may perk your interest, but much out there on him is fake as well. Neil Stephensons new novel QuickSilver is a good read. Chronicles the time centered around Newton when the practice of Alchemy transitioned into Natural Philosophy. 
Oxymoron 
But I still hope to read something old and mystery and is not faked by modern noverlists...

Sorry, but the supernatural cannot be reconciled with science. What I mean is that a supernatural event cannot be proven true; it is by its very nature inexplicable.

However, if you want to read older fantasy and lore, you might try reading the mythologies of various cultures (such as Greek or Norse), or perhaps stories written by centuries-old authors. Dante's Inferno seems like a good place to start, as it is even referenced in modern fiction. (Discounting strictly religious texts, that's probably the closest you will find to something that is true and yet supernatural.) 
Well.. 
If you are interested in really weird stuff, check out some books on the unknown. For example, Arthur C. Clarke, a highly respected science fiction author (he wrote 2001: A Space Odyssey, later tranlsated to film by Stanley Kubrick) has a series of books called Chronicles of the Strange and Mysterious, in which he and some colleagues investigate odd phenomena. There is a lot of *really* messed up stuff in there, but it often does have a natural explanation (which is yet more interesting).

Though I myself am fascinated by mythology and similar topics, I'm inclined to look at the supernatural as not existing objectively or "out there." It doesn't make it any less interesting for me, in fact it's sometimes comforting to know that you can't meet a werewolf for real :) 
This... 
...should be right up your ally Levelworm http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/

Have fun with it. 
Bleh... 
ally == alley 
Thanks Alot,guys... 
that really helps a lot...
I'm making my mind to change my major... 
Levelworm 
So what are you changing it from and to? 
Pushplay 
if I could goto Canada I may change my major from math to classics study/religion, just a thought. 
Well 
If you're good at something useful, like math, that will be guaranteed to land you a stable and well-paying job, by all means do that. Studying humanities means a lot of effort trying to get scholarships, grants, etc just so you can go to school without getting evne further into debt. Jobs in huamnities are available to graduate students, it's true, but you can't really do anything with a humanities degree except slowly become a professor, at which point you can make a respectable wage despite the fact that that particular job obviously demands to take over your life :)

If I were you and really interested, I'd finish the math degree first and then take part-time classes while working a real job, which would allow you to pay for the price of tuition as you go through school. Many people get second degrees or complete masters degrees after they have finished their first degree and are really working, or even married. 
Tronyn... 
...you can't really do anything with a humanities degree except slowly become a professor...

You can't be serious Tronyn.

Of course a generalisation like that requires only a single counterexample to refute it so...

Name - distrans
Degree - humanities
Job - Information Manager

Although, I absolutely agree with your advice in the second paragraph. I'm doing exactly what you said. 
Levelworm 
You can get a job with a humanities degree, but it's not as easy.

If you're so interested in classics, there should be enough slack in a math major for the relevant courses. Or you could extend your stay at the university by a semester and take some classes not necessary for your degree. It's a much less drastic change from chucking all your work towards a degree.

That said, I don't know what Lovecraft has to do with classics. 
Well 
If you want a job after you graduate, you take computer science, engineering, accounting, statistics, things like that. It's not as if there are no jobs at all with humanities, but still it does not by any means guarantee a career the same way a degree in engineering does. I'm interested to know what sort of humanities degree you've got. You can't deny that there are humanities degrees very little application to non-university jobs, such as philosophy for example.

Lovecraft was poor, and he studied humanities :)
Actually, he didn't even have a high school diploma. He was entirely self-educated. So the university stuff doesn't apply to the discussion of him at all, except as there might be classes on him, or subject overlaps between his work and humanities classes. 
Hehe... 
Name = distrans
Degree = BA Honours Philosophy (La Trobe)

Working on the Masters at the mo' 
Lol! 
Ok Fine you win! :) 
I Know... 
In fact I've already completed my study in a Chinese University, and now I'm trying to goto Canada to learn something new(not a master degree, but a bachelor one).
As you told me, it's not easy to find a job with BA in humanities, so...I'm trying to get into the math
department :D, and I may learn some classics after I've got a job or so...
BTW, how do you guys learn Latin in University? Can you pronounce with Latin? 
Latin Is Still 
taught at the High School level in many public schools and most Catholic Schools in the US, but is rarely required as a course. As for pronunciation, sure. Catholic Mass remained consistent from the 5th Century until Vatican II, just some 40 years ago.
I forget whether or not Latin verse is accented or not, but if it is, then it would be relatively easy to check the accuracy of modern pronunciation, just as it has been deduced from Elizabethian verse scansion that isolated communities in the Mid-Atlantic states of the US still speak in Elizabethian English. 
I Thought 
necronimicon was title for egyptian book of the dead which was indeed real? WTF.. 
Hehe 
phait, so lovecraft managed to fool you at last ;) 
Latin In H.S? 
sounds strange to me, but notso strange when I realize that we teach ancient chinese in our H.S.
hmmm...maybe a google searching would be useful 
LevelWorm 
What province of China are you from? Mainland, Taiwan, or HongKong? I'm very curious about the Quake scene in East Asia if you have any knowledge of it you can shed some light on for us. 
Mainland 
So...scene of Quake1? few plays q1 now, but millions of persons are playing q3 
No.. 
cause I've seen on History Channel or something mentioned that there was an egyptian book of the dead... 
Lol!! 
Yes, there was an Egyptian book of the dead, that's true.

Your first mistake is, that the Necromoicon was supposdly written by an Arab, Abdul Alhazred. You know, Arab, Islam, Didn't-Get-Started-Until after 600 AD sort of deal, Prophet Muhammed, Islamic Empire, Crusades, etc etc etc. You're confusing that civilization with Ancient Egypt, you know, lasted from 3500 BC to about 500 BC, polytheistic, built the pyramids, abosulutey prior to the Greeks and Romans, prior to Christianity, etc etc! Islam came along AFTER Greek civilization, AFTER the fall of Rome, and AFTER Christianity. Two totally seperate civilzations.

Necromoicon is Lovecraft's creation, entirely. There was an Egyptian Book of the Dead, entitled what I'm not sure, but I'd be pretty surprised (and distured too :) if it said anything about Chthulu! 
����������� And The Papyrus Of Ani 
The Necronomicon (Greek: �����������) is a fictional book of magic invented by H. P. Lovecraft, which frequently features in his Cthulhu Mythos tales. Lovecraft cites the meaning of the title as being derived from Greek language nekros (corpse), nomos (law), eikon (image): "An image of the law of the dead". Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronomicon

I don't think the Egyptians would name something of their own culture using a word that is firmly rooted in another language. Although many languages (English, for example) contain words from other languages (anyone care to guess where "zeitgeist" comes from?), it seems illogical to do so for something that is central to your own unique culture.

Also, the Egyptian Book of the Dead (The Papyrus of Ani) is probably from 1500-1400 BC (Sourse: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/ebod12.htm ), and the Greeks had only been on the scene for a few hundred years. They probably weren't established well enough to have that much of an influence.

Sorry about all this. I just wanted to show that a little logic and some Googling can help with understanding. 
I See 
But I've never read any Lovecraft either so... but Papyrus of Ani is familiar. 
Some Mesopotamian Links 
Here's some neat stuff, which was mainly used as fodder for the fake Necronomicons out there (which also manage to include my boy Pazuzu, so as works of fiction they ain't so bad).

http://www.providence.edu/dwc/mesomyth.htm 
Hmmm...interesting 
You know what I have been watching these days?
X-Files!!!
I wonder why I am so fascinated by these stuffs :D
BTW. Anyone has read the "zero files" of FBI? 
Zero Files? 
Can't say that I am familar with the zero files though I know Project Blue Book's history pretty throughly. 
Er... 
Is that the investigation result of Alien/UFO? 
Yeap 
The original US milatary investigation; in the first few years of the investigation they were fairly honest and emperical in their research methodology, and then the beauracracy got a hold of it. Not that they found 'real' UFO's in that time period, but they were far more interested in the science and not the public policy at the start. There is a lot of publicaly available information on it; I did a research paper for a Political Science class years ago on Project Blue Book as it was a text book example of how beauracracies operate.

Pardon my mispellings, I see some, but my spell checker is non-functional at the moment. 
Shadow Of The Comet 
<Bl1tz> http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=961 speaking of Cthulu I'm playing this game right now and I'm stopping because it's kinda freaking me out here at 4:30 am alone in my basement

<Bl1tz> I'm surprised none of you Lovecraft fanatics have played it...
<Bl1tz> it takes place in 'Illsmouth' ffs
<Bl1tz> heh
<metlslime> who's a fanatic?
<Bl1tz> I don't know...people in her and on func are always talking about Lovecraft

Check this game out for any of you who haven't already and can put up with a point & click game from 10 years ago. 
Ahem 
can i run it on 2000? 
It Runs On XP...but I'm Assuming It Will Run On 2k.Run It In DOS. 
[nt] 
Bl1tz: 
Didn't run on XP for me... 
Hmm 
Human beings fear what they do not or cannot understand, and something that is *wholly* outside of their sphere of experience, beyond their conception of reality itself, would destroy the very sanity which allows them to percieve at all.

Sounds like string theory (or m-theory)... 
AHAHAHAHAHA 
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 
HAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA 
Good Luck 
with the demons spawning in frotn of your house right now :D 
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