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About Lovecraft,Necronomican,and Other Stuffs
Well,though I'm not western,I still have strong interest toward those ancient stories...
1.Do you believe in Demons/strange seals/etc.?
I thought most of you are followers of rational

2.Anyone has got some research(seriously) on these?
I resume that the reseacher has to learn latin, ancient greek?
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Well,I Feel Sorry For My English... 
hope that's understandable...
BTW I heard that many games are influrenced by Lovecraft,right? 
We Re 
all followers of the dark unspeakable cults. 
Levelworm 
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=6157

Should provide you with interesting material. The func_ crew was at the top of its form there.

By rational, you mean us Westerners in general?

If we were rational would we have allowed our political leaders to waste our accumalitive wealth (taking a toll on our standard of living) on a war to topple the one ruthless dictator who was keeping the Middle East from exploding in the first place?

Well, I'll accept your flattery even though I feel it is a bit misplaced. 
HeadThump 
You're rational. Oil. 
 
Headthump: stop trolling already, that has nothing to do with the question/topic here.

As for Lovecraft, http://www.hplovecraft.com/ is filled with his writings and info. 
HeadThump Isn't Trolling 
Levelworm used a curious adjective to describe his impression of Westerners; I just wanted to see what he meant. After all, it is curiosity that has been addressed since Achebe's Things Fall Apart. I'm just putting his question in a broader context.

I assume he is asking a question on Western metaphysical belief. How does an interest in Lovecraftian fiction and mythos square with the western positivist mindset.

1) To most of us who are interested in Lovecraft his fiction describes a malevolent universe, and the metaphysics of demonology we don't take very seriously.
2) Lovecraftian fiction is science fantasy in that he used what was known at the time as a rationale to justify the improbable possibility of his creatures existing. 
Headthump 
this is just a personal opinion of mine, not an attack, i think your a cool guy, but:

you have a tendency to cross-reference subjects, and over complicate issues when you post.

When complex issues are being discussed, scholars try to delineate, clarify and simplify their arguments, and concentrate specifically on relevant points.

In short,
[1] focus
[2] simplify not complicate.

simplicty is actually *harder* to achieve than complexity, and also much more useful. :) 
Btw 
i could be completely wrong. :p

part of my personal preference, is that i just prefer a clear, simple style of writing and debate. 
That's Cool, Underworld Fan 
I get what you are saying. I rely on too many inferences, and assume the reader will make the connection where one subject of thought is related to another. I'll keep that in mind, avoid flames, and finish levels. A personal promise from me to you. 
Oh, Btw, UF, You've Reminded Me 
my e-mail client is working again. I'm going to vis my latest map build when I get home tonight. It is not playable yet, as the entities are embarrassingly non functional, but it will give you an idea of what I'm going for, and all of the architecture is there, though sparse in places. So look forward to an alpha .bsp later on tonight. 1:30 PM EST. at this time, around 10:00 PM if the vis is anything like the last one. 
Headthump 
please stop posting so many posts on this board, i'm bored scrolling through them all.
could you please join #terrafusion channel on gamesurge.net, you'll get proper treatment and hot auditory for your ramblings there ;) 
Vondur, 
Levelworm asked a few questions, and so far, I am the only one who has attempted to answer them. 
Quips And Sending Him 
away to other sources don't count ;-}~ 
Vondur! 
Switch to 1024x768 from 640x480 so the scrolling won't be a bitch anymore. 
Levelworm: Lovecraft: WARNING LONG AS HELL POST 
Uhm, Levelworm, I think you're seriously misunderstanding Lovecraft. I may not be as obsessed with him as Kell, but he is my favourite writer and I think I have a full understanding of his message. Lovecraft's work is a philosophical analogy; it is meant as an attack on conventional religion and Platonic ideas. Lovecraft was a materialist determinist: he believed the physical world is all that exists and that everything is predetermined and free will does not exist.

Nietzsche may have accused Plato of being a stupid asshole, but Lovecraft essentially says that he ought to be locked up. Lovecraft's reasoning is thus:

People are animals and civilization is a social structure. We deal exclusively with the physical world, and recieve no input from any other type of world. This is the philosophy of empiricism. Thus, Plato and his idea that concepts or Forms exist apart from in people's minds and that some sort of non-physical existence is possible, even that the soul itself exists as a nonphysical entity, is essentially crazy-talk. But instead of refuting the Platonic/Judeo-Christian arguements like a philosopher would, Lovecraft actually plays along with them: So say some pseudo-non-physical thing or entity came along and somehow began to interact with us human organisms: it would be horrible. Human beings fear what they do not or cannot understand, and something that is *wholly* outside of their sphere of experience, beyond their conception of reality itself, would destroy the very sanity which allows them to percieve at all.

Lovecraft's monsters exist only because man misunderstands the universe; they are not supernatural or nonphysical at all. Lovecraft makes his work more intruiging by saying that historical demonologists and occultists may have tapped into knowledge of such things, but like I said he was a strict materialist.

So basically, Vondur's first comment sums it up :)

And yes, anyone seriously researching history or historical things (occult being one such) has to learn a new language. If you're merely interested, you can just read translations and such. And no I don't know any languages besides english and a scrap or two of French (being Canadian and all, eh?), but I will have to learn one or two in order to have a Phd. 
That Was Really Interesting 
thank you Tronyn. I only managed to scratch the edge of the surface of most of that by my reading of lovecraft (not vast, but more than a normal person would ;)). 
Absolutely Excellent Tronyn, 
and probably will help Levelworm from going too far astray as well. 
To Clarify 
Most people's first impression on reading Lovecraft, myself included, is that he was drawing on an immense and dark tradition of occult and hidden religions. However, he himself said that if you look in history for this sort of stuff, there really isn't much there. Hence he invented the Necromomicon and other evil tomes just so he could have some material :) 
Thanks,Tronyn 
But...I heard that Necronomican was not created by Lovecraft,but an Arabian? I forget his name,and I'm a little...insane after watching that "in the mouth of madness".(this movie uses some Lovecraft stuffs)

BTW.I though most of westerns(no offence)are followers of rational because the shadow of Plato didn't leave this land until ShoebenHaur(right?must be wrong),or maybe as early as ****(can't spell his name,but he was once a friend of Hegel)

a third question: In western societies nowaday,do people concern with demons,god,or other supernatural stuffs?

Hoho,so much English for Wormy... 
Heh 
Lovecraft invented the Necromomicon. It was entirely his own invention (check this link:http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/necron/ if you don't believe me: it's extensive). In his works, he says the Necronomicon's author is the mad Arab "Abdul Alhazred", which is actually a name Lovecraft either invented or someone gave him as a child when he was interested in the Arabian Nights.

It's true that Plato's ideas have been entirely dominant since 2000 years after his time of writing. I would argue that even the so-called empiricists from Aristotle onwards *still* used his ideas and their political implications to a degree where the similarities are far more important than the differences.

warning: offensive opinion being served right up now :)

I think the general attitude of most Westerners these days is rather laid back: it's belief for your own convenience, sort of sitting on the fence. For example, most people want to believe in survival of consciousness after death, because they are afraid of death. They also want to believe in an objective morality, which of course they are acutely aware of (as opposed to everyone else, dumb schmucks), because this allows them to feel as if they have a meaning to their life and that they are acting well (that's important). Nietzsche called this "moral masturbation." However, they do not like to believe in a severe morality, because that means in an afterlife, if there is one, they would likely be severely punished. Thus, they take whatever is convenient for them and half-heartedly believe in it.

I think the general belief in OBJECTIVE (notice the caps there!) morality among Westerners is extremely hypocritical. If they cared about objective ideals, they wouldn't be acting as they do (materialism, ignorance, etc). However, I think that the starting point of many moralities is "I am good."

Pretty much, your average Westerner does what they want first and perhaps justifies it later; if they feel like it. Of course, there are religious nutcases here like there are anywhere else, but they certainly do not make up the majority. Among the more intelligent and free-minded people (this board being a likely-enough example) there are a wide variety of beliefs covering everything from Plato to last week's philosopher s. 
I Just Realized 
that that post makes me sounds as if I am apart from it all or somehow above it. Not the case. 
Yeah, Just To Concur With, And Summarize, Tronyn's Post 
There are a lot of people who say they believe in God, but there aren't so many that actually do. There are also a lot of people whose religion has stagnated due to cynicism. 
And... 
...by using 'Westerner' and 'rational' in the same sentence you run a high risk of creating an oxymoron. 
Easy Distrans, 
I was saying the same thing and the hall monitors started gunning for me. 
Well... 
I don't mean to hrut anyone,how can Wormy hurt humans? hehe,we always call ourselves easterners if neccesary.

To Tronyn:You've cleared my mind by telling that Necronomicon is created by Lovecraft himself,well I admit that I am a little disappointed because the book is so interesting,as an easterner I have never read these stuffs before.

But I still hope to read something old and mystery and is not faked by modern noverlists...anyone has a clue may guide my way :D 
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