|Posted by Kell on 2004/03/27 11:21:33|
|since there's been some discussion of custom monsters, both old and new, I thought I'd share these ideas I've had pulsing in my cerebelum for some time. Depending on my current mapping projects, I'd like to try modelling these sometime in the near future, but I'll pitch the design briefs here and let you foul creatures leer at them...|
maximum character length exceeded - I shall instead provide links to .txt files you can read
Please note: I haven't thought up these monsters because I'm a raving Lovecraft fanatic; literary zeal aside, I conceived them as appropriate additions to the Quake bestiary because they would fill a role in the gameplay I have felt during many mapping sessions to be noticeably empty.
here are the illustrations from the Call Of Cthulhu RPG as reference - I would deviate some way from these depictions in actually modeling them for Q1 though.
good ideas, both of them. i like the pitch black version with the vertical hammerhead bone better than the illustrated picture, much more cooler. :D
i think the pickup/drop thing would be hard to code well...
Sounds cool. But no matter how far the player is dropped, he only ever takes a maximum of 5 hitpoints. Consequently, it's good that you noted the player should take damage while being carried by the gaunt; however, I think 5 hitpoints every 2 seconds is too lenient. As you said, though, that would be refined during testing.
Gugs sound interesting, and I think a better substitute for an end boss would be rather nice. But the attack system has me a little concerned. If the damage delt is too much, then it simply becomes a matter of starting the battle with more health than the gug (or dealing damage at a faster rate than the gug); but if you balance that by making the gug slower than the player, then it will be too easy to avoid it. It seems to me that the amount of damage delt by the melee attack should be about the same or perhaps a little more than the shambler's, and the speed should be pretty much the same as the player's. At least you're not really planning on a "smash" attack, as I think that would definitely be too much.
Drawing the player out with the bilebombs sounds pretty cool, especially if the gug's speed and melee damage are balanced properly. Hopefully it would actually work that way, instead of turning into a poorly implemented feature that serves almost no purpose at all.
BTW, if this sounds like unintelligible, delusional ranting, that's probably because I'm in a rather unintelligible and delusional state of mind right now.
I had an idea for a monster. It was basically like a guy wearing a human skin trenchcoat and mask, and he had a chainsaw or some similar weapon, and he could like walk on walls and stuff. I got the idea after watching the Matrix Revolutions, and combined it with Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I decided to call them Skinnies. I also thought the Gugs would make a great monster for Quake, it seemed perfect when I was reading the Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath.
well if you've added a custom monster it emans you must already have tampered with the game code so you could just as well change the way falldamage works although you might not want that because it could come as a terrible suprise to a player who would expect it to woek like they're used to when playing quake.
About Those Gugs,
If I wanted a monster that slung shit at me, I'd piss off Courtney Love at a concert. Changaboom. Thank yoooou! Good Night!
But no matter how far the player is dropped, he only ever takes a maximum of 5 hitpoints.
Unless it's into lava etc wooooohooooohooooo
yeah, there could be little shalow pools... that way, it would also depend on how fast the player gets out of the lava to minimize damage taken... so the player still has a chance the help himself after he's been picked up.
But no matter how far the player is dropped, he only ever takes a maximum of 5 hitpoints.
Unless it's into lava etc
Exactly. R.P.G., falling damage wouldn't be the primary hazard of being gauntdropped. It would be whatever the mapper built under the info_gauntdrop. Falling damage should remain unchanged and would always be a possibility with gauntdrop, but is likely to be the least of your worries...
If I wanted a monster that slung shit at me, I'd piss off Courtney Love at a concert.
Shit? Uh, wrong orifice, dude. It comes out its mouth. It's called a 'bilebomb'. So you'd be better to piss off...umm...Courtney Love? Hmm, one above and one below :/
Zwiffle: sounds interesting. You do realise that the Quake ogre is based on Leatherface from 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre'?
Kell, This May Be Useful
Bile - a yellowish green fluid made by the liver from bile salts, bilirubin (broken down red blood cells), cholesterol, and other substances; the fluid stored in the gallbladder; the fluid released from the gallbladder into the intestine to help fat digestion
That really would be a nasty substitute for spit though.
I want to see a flying enforcer :(
I know that there is QC for that, but no models involved :(
Besides, most of Q1 monsters suck ;)
I like the drones used in OUM, forget who made them. Their constant muzzleflash is really annoying but easy to remove from the QC.
i'd like to see some more modifications to current monsters... like in neh, the vores could walk on the cieling, and there was a stronger version of the fiend which walked more upright and windmilled it's arms at you...
maybe there could be a version of the scragg that used it's tail to attack you, maybe swatting you around or something... :D
The "vores on the ceiling" still fill my nightmares, hehe.
I must admit, i dont remember the fiends you describe though.
are probably my most favorite monster from quake, followed by the ogre, so it'd be cool to see some more vore-type monsters. I can see a vore that explodes when it dies and spawns little vore ala headcrab boss from halflife. BTW is it Vores or Vore for plural? I'm not sure.
i had a 'normal' quakec version based on that neh upright walking fiend but it didnt look right because the animations weren't very long, and didn't look that good on engines w/o interpolation. if the animation was smoothed out & cleaned up it would r4wk. i'll try to dig it up when i get back home in a few weeks, might not be as bad as i remember :)
Because the general thread has moved on a bit, I'm gonna post this here, but it's actually an addition to the skin mapping stuff I said there.
I said then that there were two ways of fixing the skin while keeping under the vertex limit. It turns out that saying it without trying it is rather dangerous...
You can't weld vertexes back up in QMe to try and get back under the limit. Sorry, I said you could, and it's just not true. The way Qme decides whether a model is Q1 compliant is by comparing the number of model vertexes to the number of skin vertexes. If total skin vertexes - number of seam vertexes(as they count twice on the skin) = number of model vertexes, it gets the thumbs up.
The kicker is that merging vertexes only does it on the model, not on the skin. So if you merge them, you'll never get your model to run in Q1, as the skin vertex count will always be higher.
Oooh, and I'm making a night gaunt model, but as you might guess from the above, it's not gone smoothly so far. Pics once the skin works and I can start skinning it properly.
It's finally skinned, so here's a shot or two. I may still mess with the proportions a bit, but adding new stuff now would be very tough(for a start, it's exactly 1000 vertexes as it is) I've been making the skin as a 24 bit TGA, with colours that convert reasonably to quake colours. This is why the black skin is done in shades of green, as it's the best colour in the quake palette for highlighting black.
Shot of the .TGA skin:
And a shot of the quake colours skin:
It's not quite what Lovecraft described, it's not even what Kell described, but hopefully it'll work out. Animations to follow...
Exactly The Type Of Monster...
...that'd be bitched about for not fitting into the game. Dark green skin? God, that's hideously out of place.
Make it a brownish flesh color (like the fiend's skin) and it'd be great.
wow, man! that's awesome! the colours really work good in quake, especially the dark green.
i have a few suggestions, if i may...
waste a few polygons and give it some clearly defined teeth. maybe about 6 or so (maybe 3bottom, 2top or viceversa)
could you maybe stretch the rear or the head furthur back,and make the curve more... 'vicious'?
i'm also concerned it won't mix in well with the other quake monsters... for the most part, all the hellish looking ones have fairly light skin, usually pinkish... the dark green is really different... i don't suppose you tried it with shambler type white or the greyer vore color?
good luck with animations and all that!
The mouth looks a little funky. Maybe too wide?
And like Scampie and necros said, I think the dark green doesn't fit in well. A color set similar to the fiend, vore, or shambler seems like it would be much better, IMO.
Otherwise, it seems pretty good to me.
i'd like to see some more modifications to current monsters...
Flying Polyp For Quake 1
linkage to .txt file for further perusal:
pic from the CoC rulebook:
my custom skin on the spawn model:
I did try several eye designs and other stuff, but they just didn't look right. So I left it as a 'big flying mouth'. This is also my first skin :/
I have also put together a bunch of sound effects for the polyp. And some for the gug and gaunt too.
idle - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/idle.wav
sight - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/sight.wav
ranged attack - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/windblast.wav
invisibility - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/invisi.wav
weirdness while invisible - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/murmur.wav
back to visible - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/visi.wav
melee attack - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/chomp.wav
deathsplat - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/polyp/death.wav
This is everything. All it needs now is for someone to do the qc.
sight, or maybe idle - http://kell.vondur.net/monsters/sound/gaunt/sight.wav
That's it. I'll forego the gug sounds for the moment since there isn't a model anywhere.
I also updated the txt files with further ideas/refinements, but I won't post them in the thread for the moment.
has me interested... i'm going to go code it now. :)
can i have that skin please?
Should Have Mentioned:
you can't change the colours of the explosions' pixels. these (which include: rocket explosion, tarbaby explosion, chthon lava splash, and any other type of particle animation) are hard coded into the game, thus would need some new engine to change. :(
i was actually thinking of making the polyp explode into a bunch of like coloured gibs, as if it was loosing integrity and suddenly fell apart or something. anyway, when it's done you can take a look at it and see what it's like.
and...I suppose I should zip the mdl before uploading it o_O
gimme a sec...
it's still a WIP, so there's debug text in there and stuff...
also, i ommited the melee attack and implemented a more fancy movement code.
the monster will try to stay within a specific range of the player, backing away if the player is too close and closing in fast if it is far. it's all math dependant, so if the thing is really far from the player it moves very quickly, then slows down to a crawl as it gets into range.
once it's in range, it cirlces the player, firing it's wind/air attack.
i coulnd't get a decent looking air effect using particles, so i opted for a sprite that looks sort of like air waves, although i think some people may mistake it as Sound instead of wind... if someone can come up with a better sprite (or even better yet, model a nice air wave shock model) i'll gladly use that instead.
as it is, the wind will push you backways and up a bit. if you fight the wind, that is, walk into it to try not to move, the wind will hurt you, depending on how much you fight it and how long you are in the wind wave.
it will also abritrarily become invisible. kell, i know you wanted an nauseating piping, but all i could come up with that was remotely similar is an annoying high pitch whine
the monster will not attack while invisible however... it continues to move though.
as for the death, it does not explode, perse, but it does blowup into a shower of chunks which will hurt you if you touch them. acidic maybe? :P
to play: unzip into a folder, keeping folder names on.
do quake -game foldername +map polyp_q1
the map is unforgivingly ugly, but it lets you test out a 1 on 1 fight or 3 on 1 . there are no weapons, so do impulse 9 at the start.
remember, work in progress :) i'll work on it some more later. ;)
will check out when I get back to my lair :)
For the gib death, I reskinned the 3 gib models with essentially the same texture as the polyp skin but without obvious details. I called them polypop1 - 3 .mdl:
I did discover the thing about the particle effects being presets when I looked at the 'global model proerties' options. For the polypops, I unchecked 'trail of blood' and selected 'wizard green tracer' instead. In game it looks pretty good as an acidy spatter.
Going just on what you describe above:
I like the idea of the movement - actually backing away as well as advancing. And having the speed proportional to the distance to the player is a very neat touch, really suggestive of predatory intelligence.
My only concern with the absence of a melee is that the player is usually disadvantaged by a melee attack, because all the emphasis is really on ranged weaps. But I do like the ideas for the movement, so I'll playtest and see what it's like before commenting further.
The particles. Hmm, I kinda thought the rocket, grenade or vorepod trails would have been ok, but I obviously don't know all the technicals involved so I'll shut up about that. A sprite seems the better option than a model, and I'll have a bash at one if need be. I reckon a model would look a lot less like wind because it would look inherently solid.
The 'naueseating piping'. I did make the murmur.wav and I tested out as a replacement for both the shadowring whisper and the func_train ratchet. It does play more than once, but only every second or something, not in a seamless loop. The actual type of sound isn't terribly important - it doesn't have to be piping. Would you be able to use the shadowring whisper ( sound/items/inv3.wav iirc ) which loops? I think it's really important that the player has some hint as to where the polyp is when invisible.
The death/explosion...acidic maybe? Definitely :D "must be using it for blood"
Other than that, it sounds like a very cool implementation. I especially am looking forward to the movement behaviour since that is what I imagined would be the polyps most interesting aspect.
I built a more refined testmap, with appropriate stuff for testing against the polyps. Had other feedback to give, but cafe is closing and I have to go.
I created a new folder for this, and swapped some of the souds around, so it's a separate directory.
you didn't like the gib sounds! :D i thought it sounded cool with all the splattering noise! :P
i'll work on it a bit later today, btw... did a few changes though... it won't head straight towards you, but will strafe at the same time, but that's about it so far./..
it sounds col the first time, then gets intrusive. I don't think it's a god idea to have so many .wavs playing as the result of normal combat.
Btw, I tried another method for giving the player a hint as to the polyps' location while invisible: I added the grenade smoke trail to both models. It looks a bit comical when the polyps are visible, like a tailpipe from some dieselly old car. But when invisible it's quite spooky to see just these thin wisps of smoke weaving through the map to find you. So maybe keep it just for the polyp_i.mdl..? Try it yourself.
It would still be cool to get a looped wav working for invisibility, but the smoke trail alone would be okay.
Now, I had a bash at modelling myself last night ( no, I don't mean I modeled myself, I modeled a mons..oh whatever )
and came up with this:
No offence to Preach's work, but I had a very specific concept in mind and couldn't contain it any longer.
As well as the flat-color renders above, I stuck my effort in a map with some of his cronies for a Quake Family Portrait7trade;
The texture wot the gaunt is covered with is an amalgamted mush of vore skin, just to give an indication of color and style. Something distinctly gigeresque would not be unappropriate for the gaunt skin I think.
The 'model' weighs in at 149 brushes, yielding a polycount broken down thus:
23 polys/each wing
64 polys/head ( including teeth )
26 polys/each arm
29 polys/each leg
~ 150 - 200 verts ?
as a comparison, the shambler.mdl is also 284 polys, 144 verts. The shambler is a more solid, less convluted mesh so this gaunt probably has more verts but even so, it's well within the range of the existing monsters.
The problem, of course, is that this isn't a mdl...it's a map :(
I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone has ever been able to model anything without a grid equating to the engine's world units. So I used Radiant, and made this.
Now there's the quest to find a method - any method - to convert .map to .mdl
Speeds has already recommended a couple of things and I got hold of an old converter which might work. But I'm open to suggestions. If it comes to it, I'll try rebuilding the model vert for vert in the correct editor. But I'd obviously like to avoid that.
Any help appreciated.
In the meantime, here's a zip containing the above screenshotted map/wad and bsp:
I understand completely what you mean by a grid overlay -- I had thought as well that idea would be a good plug-in for Blender.
You can use 3dExploration (www.xdsoft.com/explorer) which can translate all common Quake files like .map into common 3d data files like .3ds, .obj etc and then import those into a Quake model editor.
dude! wicked! :)
there are some things i don't like about it, but they are mostly minor things... like, the legs are really skinny, and i think it would be cool if the horns curved forwards just a bit
but wow, if you do get it modeled, i'll definatly code that one too!
the only problem i see with the model is clipping problems with the wings, that's a common problem with models in-game with wings, which means it wouldn't look right in smaller spaces, which means it would limit where you could possibly put them. but that's just my opinion.
One gaunt, in mdl format. It looks like the scale's been preserved correctly. I basically used that 3D exploration program to convert the map to dxf, and imported that into QMe. The main problem was that .map files don't have the internal surfaces culled like .bsp files do. So at first the model had over 600 polys, as if you'd made each brush a seperate func_wall, so all the backfaces remained. But a little bit of surgery and the model's left with just over 300, not quite the count you were after, but it's easily alright for quake.
As for my model, I can see why it needs a more quakey skin, but none of the attempts I made worked out too great. Unless I get very inspired some time this week, I'll probably just convert it for prydon gate or something : - )
model skin coords... the wings would need to be seperate as well as the horns so that it could be skinned properly...
necros: yes, the legs are skinny, as are the arms. I did those last because 1) I knew I'd find them harder to sculpt than anything else and 2) they're almost the least prominent parts of the monster's form ( I think the order of prominence runs: wings - head - tail - legs - arms - torso ). I kept them skinny to save polys a bit and because they weren't so important, but also becaue they are called gaunts...they're supposed to be skinny ;) But if they look wrong when animated, then they can be bulked a little without adding more polys.
The horns do form basically a straight edge along the front of the face....and in Pitch Black, they do curve inwards. That's also what Lovecraft's descriptions says. I forgot :/ That can be remedied.
It will get modelled. I'll have to wait 'til I get home to check Preach's conversion, but really besides the sculptural work and probably the skinning, it's Preach who's risen to this challenge; there's no way it'd even be worth my time trying this without Preach to actually make it happen. So not if - when it's animated etc. you will be coding it. Compromise is not an option. Escape is impossible. You will be assimilated.
zwiffle: I agree absolutely. Doing testmaps, I know the shambler's bbox will fit down a 96 unit corridor, but it's arms will clip into the walls. The standard/classic/generic corridor width of 128 units alleviates this. The gaunt model fits into a 128x128 doorway, but since it's going to spend most of its time flying - in fact, it's going to spend most of its time hovering - I doubt the mapper will need to fit it through many small spaces. Of course, there is always the greater likelihood of the gaunt flapping close to walls or pillars in pursuit of the player and sweeping its wings straight through the architecture. It may be possible to code it's movement to encourage it to give brushwork a wide berth, but that sort of playtesting is a bit away and...it's necros' problem anyway :P ( yeah, I'm still watching you, dude )
Preach: you are unstoppable. I love you :)
looking at those horns, i can already envision a sort of melee attack where it attacks you like rhine would use it's horn or something... sort of fly/charges you and swings it's head as it closes...
also, the tickling as the gaunt holds you...
that's great! :P you should actually be able to see the tail move around under you as you're being held...
ok, i'm waiting for the model now. :D
what about instead of using lightning for a ranged attack, the gaunt charges you like a fiend/lostsoul, physically hitting you with it's body?
well, the Pitch Black creatures use their vertical blades with extreme vicousness to 'butt' their prey, shattering bone easily. That's not a bad idea. I suggested in the design brief that a conventional melee attack would be beneficial so it wasn't just a case of the lightning and occassionally the gauntdrop. As an actual replacement for the lightning or other ranged weapon I have reservations; having the gaunt move as fast as a fiend's longjump attack would bring it close to the player very quickly, which sort of defeats most of the advantages of having it fly. It also means that multiple gaunts in a combat situation are very likely to end up crowded round the player, their wings clipping into everything.
But I do know exactly what you mean about seeing the gaunt swoop suddenly at the player and strike with its gladiate head ( note: it's the vertical blades that act as weapons though; the horizontal horns contain its sensory organs. but whatever )
So code away. Too cool not to try :)
So Far So Geodesic
I've done the hover
( lightning ) animations. There's still more to do, including pain, death, swoop etc. But these are the 2 I thought would be longest and most often seen by the player. I'm actually getting the hang of qME now; I learned 4 new tricks with it today. So I whinged. I tried. I learned. I stopped whinging :P I'm actually pretty confident this monster is going to happen.
While experimenting ( read: furiously fux0ring ) with qME I was able to make the h_gaunt.mdl
, the head used for gibbing.
I'm still having trouble getting the skin map sorted out, but the simplicity of the head model made skinning it a piece of piss. It's exactly the same polys as the one on the model...consistency is a good
Here's a pic:
necros: although not all the anims are there, you can start coding with the model now if you like. Besides, some of the animation may need to be based on specific forwardspeed values. So it would be better if I wait before doing them.
Oh The Woes Of Skinning For Quake 1
Making a nice skinmap for quake is by far the hardest part. The big problem is that to do one in the style of modern games requires a load of foreplanning. What I'd recommend for skinning the gaunt is to split the wings and head off, and create a skin frame where they aren't obstructed by the body.
To do that, make a copy of your model, that you'll only use for the skin. Select all the vertexes around the neck, split them. Do the same at the base of the wings. Then reconstruct all the objects from the base mesh
Then just move the head away from the body with the object tools, and the wings likewise, so that from the front view no parts overlap. Then run the skinmap wizard.
If you like you can mirror the wing onto itself, to save space on the skin, but that sort of thing can get messy. You could also mess around with the vertexes in the skin frame so that more faces are visible from the front, as long as you're careful with the ones you split at the start. Save frequently and good luck!
Oh, and when you've finished, animate the model with the copy you made earlier(You did make it, right?). That way you can export the frames from that one, and import them into the skinned version. By the magic of QMe it doesn't matter that the skinned version has had vertexes split, it'll import the frames anyway.
Ok... Started Coding
don't have much to show yet... just basically got the model in the game and such...
one thing: the monster is facing the wrong direction, so when it turns to face me, it's back is pointed towards me, so you *may* want to fix that. ;) also, you have to promise not to change the order of the frames that are already completed... this causes a lot of hassle for me as the coder and is easily avoidable for the modeller.
cheers and good luck with the rest of the animations! :)
i think it looks rockin, btw! the straight horns on the front look rather good ingame, although the bottom part has the texture really skewed...
if i might make a suggestion regarding the skin, perhaps you could try to do a q2 style skin for the head, by splitting up all the vertices so that you don't have to worry about stretched skin and such, plus you can get more detail into the head... i don't know too much about it though... :\
also, definatly go along with preach's suggestions. it will really benefit the model: you can see how the head part of the skin was also projected onto the part of the wings behind the head, for example :P
if you don't mind, i plan to use both the gaunt and the polyp in my next map! :D (plus the gug if it gets done!)
Jesus Crap, It's Done Er.. No, It's Started. :P
wow, you wouldn't believe how much trouble it was just to get the stupid bastard to pick the player up and move around!
it took me like 6 hours for what you see here:
it's a pak file, the map is "gauntmap", no sounds, only regular scragg ones and the model faces the wrong way, but i swear that's not my fault! :D (oh yeah, the map is butt ugly again)
it's far from finished (the monster that is)... but i felt i should at least show what i got today, maybe that'll encourage you to finish the animations, kell. :D
basically, all it does is pick you up and fly around. it doesn't drop you, and can't attack any other way. plus it gets a little buggy if it doesn't pick you up on the first try as it starts to just float around... :( (will be fixed later)
to test it out, basically, just walk up forward so it notices you, then stand still. :P no really, it has a hard time actually hitting anything, but that's just cause it's not done yet. :)
problems that i don't think can be avoided:
-when the gaunt holds you, the view is very jerky. that's because the monster only gets refreshed every 0.1 seconds (and you can't change that without breaking stuff on slower computers), and i used setorigin to manually set the origin of the player underneath the gaunt, plus gravity still affects you, so even though i reset the player's velocity to 0 everyframe, you still start to accelerate down, so again, that contributes to the jerkiness.
-needs gaunt_corner entities to work. the way normal movetogoal (which is what all monsters that move use) works is it basically just heads towards the player until it hits a wall (then it goes into wall following mode) or it reaches the player. so obviously, that wouldn't work if the player is held directly beneath it. so when the thing grabs you, it just starts going to it's path corners (or in this case gaunt_corner). the mapper can put paths over lava, with a drop ent between so that it can drop at the right moment. i'll probably work on this a bit more so that it can go to _any_ gaunt_corner which is closest, instead of the first one of the list.
by contrast, the dropping player stuff and the lightning attack should be relatively simple to implement, and i'll probably get that done tomorow. plus i'll need sounds, and the rest of the model. :D
off to bed for me! cheers
Quake 1 Skinning
May I share with you a technique I discovered to get perfect skin mapping with Quake 1 models.
- First, make the model without worrying about skinmapping at this stage. When the mesh is finished, save a copy of the .mdl as an .md2 in QME.
- Import the .md2 into NST (Npherno's Skin Tool) for Q2, and create a new skinmap. As an example, here's a new skinmap for the Quake 1 knight I did:
If your model already has a skin (like the Q1 knight), you can do a "retrofit" to the new skinmap, like this:
This can act as a guide as you paint over it to increase the skin resolution. I've started painting over the knight skin, as you can see, at 512x512 res, but I would reduce the skin to a 256x256 before using ingame:
- Finally, you need to convert your fully skinmapped .md2 model back into an .mdl to use in Quake 1. So far, QuArK 5 is the only tool I believe lets you do this conversion (qme does mdl->md2, but not vice versa, it seems).
I hope this has been helpful.
Very Useful Info Kinn
and the skin is coming on good as well.
Nice technique, if it works. (I have doubts about whether md2-style UV mapping will actually work in the mdl format.) Please post a screenshot of the finished model in quake, when you get a chance. I'd like to see it.
making more headway. got the drop stuff worked out, so that leaves me with the lightning attack.
i wanted opinions on this one... should it be a no-evasion-besides-cover lightning attack, like the shambler, or a lightning attack that tracks a little behind the player, so if you are moving/strafing, you can avoid some of the damage like i did with the brown shamblers in nesp06 and 09?
little behind. I hate Shambler's lightning.
Uv's, Quark, And Lightning Arcs
Yeah, the MD2 UV mapping can be done in quake, but you have to alter the model, so that seperated portions on the skin are seperate on the mode. Now, I've been spending hours doing this by hand, but it turns out that quark 5 does do this correctly and automatically, which is very nice to know : - ).
Also necros, you might wanna look at this inside3D thread when you're coding the lightning.
It's not about whether the lightning is accurate or not(I agree with scampie though), but it is a rather nice visual effect, and I think it's quite portable too.
While you guys are at it, how about making a couple more base set monsters, a runic set of monsters, and another zombie guy. I would appreciate it. Thx.
Since base maps are much more popular than, well, you'd expect from the four maps in the original quake, I always reckoned that they could do with some variety. But the problem is trying to come up with something that's not just a grunt with a different weapon, as those are best done with a reskinned grunt. Also it shouldn;t be too Quake2-ish, as quake doesn't really go in for cybernetic stuff.
The only possible I had was to rip off the arco-flagellant:
as it's kinda like the grunts(chemically enhanced, and has a pacifier helm that sedates it until it's triggered, when the helm is lifted the thing goes bezerk). It'd be a melee creature for those base levels, which would make a change(fiend cameos excepted). Some kind of flying thing would be nice too, any ideas?
I Have Been Fiddling With Reskinning
The zombie as a cybernetic, symbiotic looking creature that rises from the green sewage but results so far are butt ugly as I haven't had the time lately to develop it further. Maybe that idea would be an easy one for someone to implement if they are looking for a base creature addition without the time factor of modeling something from scratch.
a zombie that crawled around on the ground would be nice variety. it's attacks would be the same..
Well you could rip off Doom 3 and have a mechanical spider-head type monster. Then the player could put headless torso things around the stage, and the spider-heads would go them, attach themselves to it and use it as vehicle. You can't kill the torso itself, but if you damage it enough the spider-head will fall from it and won't be able to use it for a while. The only way to kill it is to shoot the spider-head while its not attached to a torso, but that brings about the problem of torsos falling into walls and not being useable, etc. If I come up with any more ideas I'll post em.
Player = Mapmaker
Id ripping off Rodriguez who in turn ripped off (but at least credited) Heinlein who was probably visually inspired by Rider
who in turn was influenced by Shelly's Queen Maub.
Very Interesting, at least to me.
for a flying base monster... I can't find a pic online but a nursebot-type thing that shoots hypodermic needles at you (a la bioforge) would be entertaining. :)
and.. who remembers those spider enemies with the death knight attack and scrag sounds?
Make hipnotic's roboscorpion float. It'd be perfect, I'm sure Daz will agree.
<D4Z> OMG! A scorpion that hovers without flapping!!!!!!!11
Yes that would be awesome, ph43r it, for it hovars without flapping!!!!!!11
Give The Fish
death ray eyes, water tanks and a Di Vinci like propeller to float around the air -- they would be the baddest Mothas in the game.
Shub: "I grow weary of your insolence Quake Guy! Send in the fishes!"
Update On The Gaunt...
again, wanted some opinions...
currently, this is what i have done...
this attack aims similar to the way a soldier aims it's shotgun. if you are moving, the shot will be slightly behind you and if you don't, you'll be hit dead on.
there is a small difference though: it doesn't miss as bad as the soldier, so sometimes you will be hit even if you are strafing (i'd say about 50% of the time) this is speed dependant, so if you're bunny hoping and got a lot of speed you probably won't get hit at all.
also, the damage given is completly dependant on where the gaunt hits you. (there aren't any headshots or anything stupid like that though, don't worry. :P) if you stand still, the gaunt will hit you dead on and deal about 9 damage. if you are strafing, and suffer only a glancing shot you'll receive maybe about 6 or so damage. (that's from an individual lightning shot btw...)
grabbing the player:
the gaunt will only go for a grab if:
-it has been at least 5 seconds since it last released the player
-it has been at least 5 seconds since it last tried to grab the player and failed
after grabbing the player, the gaunt heads for a gaunt_corner and starts following the route. if it passes over a info_gauntdrop (ie: around a pit of slime) it will let go of the player. (this also counts towards the 5 second delay before grabbing again)
while being held, the player receives between 1 and 3 damage every second or so.
ps, i haven't updated the monster i have on the net yet.
also, how's the model coming along, Kell?
Crap, Forgot To Add:
The lightning attack will only be attempted if the player is furthur than 384 units away from the monster, otherwise, it charges you and tries to grab you.
The Problem With Kell's Gaunt.
It makes too much sense:
It has a fairly normal amount of limbs.
It has wings to support it flying.
It's more anatomically correct than the average Quake monster.
And that, I think, isn't not in the spirit of Quake monsters. They (and I mean the true monsters, not abhumans) usually don't make sense. They have no eyes, or spikes instead, 3 legs so walking is a strange affair, they fly without any means of support, or bounce without any obvious mechanism. That strangeness is an inherent part of what makes them Quakey, rather than just another demon / ghoul / standard fantasy monster.
Just meh �2 (yes my opinion is more expensive than most :P).
Hey Who Asked For It?!
'Just meh �2 (yes my opinion is more expensive than most :P).'
Oh yeah, that's right, I did. About a month ago and it is about damn time!
Leather Wings Enfold Me
Gaunt Update, 18th April 2004
The skin is done, the model is almost complete. There's just a couple of animations I want to add.
The main thing that I don't know how to do is get the model to work in GL. I know it needs to be 'meshed' or something, and there are .ms2
files in the various glquake folders that correspond to the models. I'm sort of hoping that the engine can do this itself, but I really haven't a clue about it. Any info appreciated.
The animations so far, in the order stored in the .mdl file:
Animations to be added:
necros, regarding the animations:
Both the death anims take a few frames for the model to rise above the ground plane: deatha is above the ground in frames 6 -> 8, deathb is above the ground in frames 5 -> 8 This is important because the gaunt will drop from its location when killed, so I had to get the model above its centerpoint before it hits the ground, otherwise large portions of the model might sink into the floor then reappear o_O
I already mentioned in monster_gaunt.txt that the gaunt should remain airborne for a time when killed anyway, because it may be carrying the player when it dies and a short delay will open a gap between the falling player and the falling gaunt. Based on the model anims as they are, I suggest a delay of 1.0 seconds. I have no idea if this is actually something you can effect with the monster's qc, but it should be noted. You have the model - experiment and see what you get :)
Note also that I flipped the two halves of the hover anim. It's 10 frames long, 5 frames for each wingbeat. For one half, the tail remains dangling down. For the other half, the tail 'lashes disquietingly' ( the verts for the wingbeats are essentially identical for the two halves ). I swapped the halves so the tail lashes during frames 1 -> 5 instead of 6 -> 10. This is to coincide with how I imagine the tail attack to work. When the player is grabbed the gaunt reverts to its hover animation. Exactly 2 seconds after the player is grabbed the tail damage is inflicted, accompanied by one of the ( randomly selected ) player pain wavs. The actual damage of the 'tickle' can be modified during playtesting, but the frequency of the tickle must remain at 2 second intervals so the animation will sync with it. The first tail damage should only be inflicted 2 seconds after the player has been grabbed. That's why I changed the arrangement of the frames. Hope that makes sense.
I thought it would be a good idea to have the gaunt emit its sight.wav at the moment it successfully grabs the player. This makes sense because sight.wavs are used to indicate a monster changing from one behaviour ( passive ) to another ( aggresive ) and in this case the gaunt is changing from one form of behaviour to another. It would also act as a useful audio cue for the player so they always know when they've been grabbed, regardless of which monster currently has their attention.
Oh, and I rotated the model around 180° so it's facing the right way now :P
I had a look at the screenshots of that lightning modification. Excellent! If you want to use that for the gaunt's lightning, necros...feel free.
Thanks for all the info and advice regarding the skinning. Though I didn't read any of it until after I'd already skinned the gaunt :/ Tbh, I'd rather just stick with the Q1 format for now anyway. It's good to work within the limitations of the game, and I want the monster to fit with the existing aesthetic. And this is my first model, of anything. Evar :P
I think the skin turned out pretty good. I went for a bony, skeletal effect like the back of the vore and scrag. Not quite Giger biomechanical, but close. I may have gotten carried away with painting ribs. For the wings I did corrugated leather, which fits the prose description, the creatures from Pitch Black and the Quake color palette. Seems okay. The skin is 340x192 - only slightly larger than any of the id skins, which is mostly because of the wing surface.
Here it is in jpg:
I also finished the gibbed-head skin, so the teeth are now properly yellowed.
And any offers to make new sound effects for the gaunt would be muchly welcome. There's only so much I can do with the Windows Sound Recorder.
Oh The Humanity
that actually looks pretty decent, skinwise at least, can't say about animations. i'm looking forward to it.
The Monster Mesh
Models in GLQuake are meshed when the engine first loads them. They are then stored in .ms2 files for later reference. If you make a new version of the .mdl, you will need to delete the corresponding old .ms2 so the engine can re-mesh it. Obviously, there is no need to distribute .ms2 files with a completed model.
first of all, i really like the model. the skin is great, as are the animations. i find it surprising it's your first model! i like the rib/bone look of the skin!
so far, i haven't had too much trouble putting the animations in, however, i need you to change some things for the final version.
the death animations are busted... you see, when a monster dies, it falls, and stops falling when it's bounding box hits the ground... not it's origin. so the final death anims need to be 24 units below the origin, because the bounding box goes 24 below it's origin... (so, as it is now, the monster falls to the ground and hovers 24 units over the ground)
there are only two different sizes of monsters, small ones like the player and grunt, and big ones like shambler, fiend, vore, dog...
VEC_HULL_MIN = '-16 -16 -24';
VEC_HULL_MAX = '16 16 32';
VEC_HULL2_MIN = '-32 -32 -24';
VEC_HULL2_MAX = '32 32 64';
these are the presets that quake uses. you actually can't have different sizes of bounding boxes, because the way quake does collision detection. it builds three versions of the map, only the regular is the one you see. the other two get 'extruded' so that the game will know if a hull1 or hull2 can fit through...
as you can see, the z min and max are not even, though the x and y are... so remember to take that into account when you work on the death anim.
also, try to take that into account with the rest of the model... do a uniform move for all frames. i noticed the gaunt is a little forward and a bit down during it's normal movement animations.
the rest of them work great. looking forward to the finished product!
i always forget something...
i'm using the larger, ogre sized bounding box for the gaunt, kell. ;)
also: yes, you can have different sized bounding boxes, even bigger than the vore sized ones, but the collision detection gets screwed up. entities will impact on the real size of the boudning box, but quake will treat it as a size2 (larger size) bounding box, so movement will not be affected, and it will be able to move into walls until the preset larger bounding box limits it.
Kell Gets The Prize
Very original. If you need a good open source sound editing tool, it would not hurt to try this out
Kell, You Have Mail.
New Base Monsters
i always thought it would be cool to have a sort of in-between monster that bridged the gap between the grunt and the enforcer. half mindless lurching soldier half sleeker armored shooter. maybe it could throw crates at you!
also if someone could mod the SoA centroid so it could jump and walk on ceilings ala nehahra vores that would be kewl kthxbye.
...go Kell and necros!
..and I now have a name for the current 100b work in progress - "Disquieting Lash". Thanx Kell
kell, did you receive my email? i've been having trouble sending mail lately...
Yeah, I got it. Just took me a while to reply. Work progresses, protractedly :/
Just an update: the gaunt is developing well. Phase I Incubation cycle complete//all biorhythms within established parameters.
Me A Low Skinner
Is there in Qmle a way to patch an open vertice?
In the Orb model there is a vertice missing.
The side behind the gun back upwards.
I have not been able to make it close, although made several changes.
and.. who remembers those spider enemies with the death knight attack and scrag sounds?
Yeah, that thing freaked me out the first time I saw it (the sound and the jump), I seem to remember it having new sfx though, not the scrag sounds.
...will also put my hand up at being freaked out when I first encountered teh spider. I'm seriously considering their use for this year's All Hallow's Eve map.
What The Hell Is This Spider Everyone Is Talking About?
I'm Trying To Remember Myself
I recall something called "Willy the spider" - basically a flattened sphere with legs, I think it made scrag sounds when it attacked, and screamed like a vore when dying. There may have been a better one, but I don't recall seeing it.
But the System Shock 2 ones were the scariest IMAO.
According to the .txt file I'm reading here Willy the spider uses only scrag and vore sounds and was made by a guy called Ken Turner.
Unfortunately his homepage is now dead and I can only find the .mdl and .txt not the .qc so I can't send it over if you want it. :-(
Mind you, it was used in quite a few maps at the time so it shouldn't be hard to track down a copy if you really want it. plumber and wishing well being two I can remember straight off.
BTW. Can't wait to see the finished Gaunt. You guys are just so....
The Map With The Spiders
Do you mean welding a vertex? If you do, then there is a very hacky way of doing this in QME. Select all of the vertexes that you want to meet at the same point, and assign them to a new object. Then reset this object's pivot, open the object edit menu, and set the scope to all frames. Then keep shrinking the object, reseting the pivot when it's as small is it will go. Eventually the points will snap to the same place.
Also, here's a screenshot of a naked gug.(It's naked because I can't draw hair on it that doesn't look like black paintbrush lines...)
Add-on Q1 Monster
Thanx for your recall, Preach.
As my language isn't that commen, asurely not in constructive terms...I am trying to understand what you ment.
But as I posted the *.mdl in #84, it shouldn't be that hard to take a look at it. It is a vertex what doesn't want to "fill".
I've been trying with clipping, but it doesn't work. It still keeps an open vertice.
There must be a way in Qmle to repair it.
Had a look at the model, and I see what you mean. Luckily, it is quite easy to fix that. Select the three vertexs around the hole, and then right click. From the right click menu, select make triangle, and it plugs the hole.
I used the spider in a couple of my maps... changed the QC so that it used new sounds tho.
Great! I kept going from the dxf file.
Now it finally fits.
There are two spiders for Quake.
in the monsters section
you can find the zipfiles in the cdrom.com mirror, linke at my site
Alas the best spider is probably the Hexen II one.
The Hexen 2 Models, Static And Animated
are little masterpieces of Very Low Polygon modeling.
that spider reminds me one from the Shrak addon
shrak, that brings back memories.
Kell and necros you guys are ace! I really like how you are making an effort to really compensate for quakes shortcomings and also make sure the new enemies fit in well. GG, looking forward to playing the whole package when its done :D
(First post here, Hi! :D)
No Edit Function?
Couldn't seem to find an edit function, anyway I came up with a little idea. What about if you made a mod where the scenario was basically lovecraftian creatures versus humans(both teams player controlled)? Maybe battling over the necronomicon(if the team holds it it gets points?). Maybe skip out on the necronomicon, since I have never really read any lovecraft books(I will soon tho :D) I don't know if fighting over the necronomicon would fit in with the story. But anyway, Lovecraftian creatures(gaunts, fiends[?]) versus the slipgaters, battling over a rune or a book or whatnot. (Haven't really seen a playable flying creature in a quake conversion before I think :D)
it's an interesting idea and reminds me of the q2 mod where it was aliens versus humans.
i personally woudln't be interested in it though because it would be multiplayer.
also, welcome and thanks for the comments. we're still working on the gaunt but it's getting closer to being almost done.
and there are so many other monsters too... mmm... monsters...
I'm almost finished the gaunt anims. I added the new ones and I'm part way through modifying the deatha anim. Who's stupid idea was it to modify that one anyway? >:( Oh right...mine.
I'll email it tomorrow, or later tonight if I'm really fast an efficient. Stop sniggering at the back.
I'll send the design docs for the other monsters too...
Couldn't seem to find an edit function
No, me neither. Ask metlslime about it :P
hm... i just received one of those "mail undeliverable" replies from a message i sent you two days or so ago... just before getting it, i had sent you some emails, so just to be sure, can you tell me on here if you get them?
The last mail I have from you is 'on frames and why the models look..' dated 26th April.
can you check again, Kell?
checked just now; nothing new :(
it's likely that my hotmail account is highly viral.
I created a new one for you to contact:
monster_kell AT hotmail DOT com
See if that's any more successful.
Just started reading through - looks like some awesome stuff you've achieved!
I'll send a more detailed reply when I get the chance, but I'm really looking forward to getting home now.
My wings droop with anticipation.
Also: yes, I sent you the wrong version of the model, with the old ( darker toothed ) skin and only 1 frame for the launch anim. My bad; too many backup copies for my poor little mind o_O
It's late here, cafe is closing soon so I'll wait to the morrow before replying; I'll be a lot more articulate then :P
From the looks of it, you've now got ahead of me with the concept. All your suggestions seem entirely logical and I have no reason to disagree with any of them. Not even the comment about the sounds :)
Nice work, dude. Very nice.
i got the updated model, and working in the new frames wasn't a problem. i'm wondering if you did or not email the follow up you talked about in that email, because i haven't gotten it. just checking, because emails between us has been kind of buggy.
Just sending it now - I took some time to consider the 'axe-only/use of weapons' issue.
Was reading the lord of the rings last night, and they are currently with the rangers in Ithilien, and I suddenly imagined how cool a dark, shadowy, rather camouflaged archer enemy would be in quake.
Very tall, 7 feet.
Wears dark gray robe.
Face is hooded and shadowed.
Carries a bow which is as long as himself.
Same health as an enforcer.
Fires very big, fast, and high-damaging arrows, at a fire rate of about 1 arrow per 1.5 secs.
Stays as far away from you as he can, while still keeping you in his FOV. Easily detects the player and it is very hard to surprise him.
A heavy grunt as he fires an arrow, is otherwise very silent, except he screams "SLIPGATER" upon spotting you(shouldn't really be heard what he screams until listening closely. More like "Sli-gaehe" in game)
He has a dark, bassy voice.
Just figured I'd post this to see if I could contribute. Not sure if this goes with your overall vision for the project, but I sure would like to fight with a monster such as this one.
Check the Arcane Wizard thread - Fatty was talking about some medieval archer monsters...
Incidentally, I could throw in the Ontranto Archers and Crossbowmen as well. These guys automatically replace grunts and enforcers in medieval (worldspawn.worldtype = 0) maps and drop nails. There's rather a lot of them about in Ontranto :)
Seems Rather Cool.
Maybe have my own monsters throw spears for some originality then? :D
Hows The Gaunt Doing?
any new animations/skins to gape at? looks nice so far
Animations are essentially complete, excepting any last-minute tweaks. Code is all there, just playtesting now.
keep up the good work kell, if it ends up half as good as it sounds, i'd definitely include it in the level im working on
Well, You Know...
keep up the good work kell
well, you know, i did do a bit too... :P
but i havent seen any of your work on it yet so i don't know if it's good :). I'm sure it will be though if it's up to your nespxx standard, so keep up the good work! And Preach too, the modelling oracle!
well, you know, i did do a bit too... :P
More than a bit. Quite a lot in fact. And then a bit more.
necros: did you get my mail? I'm getting a little worried about the email b0rkage that seems to be going on :(
i got feedback on the 11th, then a followup on the 13th. i had sent a reply, i think on the 13th.
unless you've sent others, i've recieved all the mail you've sent me. i'm beginning to think there's something wrong on hotmail's end... perhaps try a different email thing?
there's this thing called spymac, and although it's geared towards macintosh users, their email is free to all. plus they give you like a freakin gig of email space. i used to have an account there. or just try yahoo or something...
just opened your resend from 14th. Feedback to come, as always >:D
A Fiend From The South Pacific Perhaps?
I like the almost-haiku up in the corner, too.
thats weirder than I thought; so it actually walks on the points of it's talons. Interesting :) I have your latest mail, feedback shortly ( when I walk to a better cafe :P )
i've just discovered one can specify _any_ colour on the palette for explosions. O_O
also, did you get my reply on TE_BEAM? you made no mention in the later feedback (may17) so i'm thinking you didn't get it.
How? Are you sure this works in all engines?
it worked for rogue's mission pack.
Ok, I Figured It Out -- I Think...
WriteByte (MSG_BROADCAST, SVC_TEMPENTITY);
WriteByte (MSG_BROADCAST, TE_EXPLOSION2);
WriteCoord (MSG_BROADCAST, coordinates_x);
WriteCoord (MSG_BROADCAST, coordinates_y);
WriteCoord (MSG_BROADCAST, coordinates_z);
you use the normal temp entity setup like for all the others, but...
WriteByte (MSG_BROADCAST, #);
WriteByte (MSG_BROADCAST, #);
replace # with actual numbers.
add in those last two lines. the first writebyte controls the palette colour to start at (look at any quake palette and count the blocks to find the colours you want)
must be a number between 0 and 255
the sencond writebyte controls how many colours to go up, to add some variety to the particle colours. so a setting of 3 would use the colour you specified and the next three. (or maybe it's the one you specified and the next two... not sure, i don't sharp enough eyes i guess. ;) )
don't forget you need to declare the TE_EXPLOSION2 constant in defs.qc or just put the number 12 instead as that's what the constant is set to.
yup, I got your reply re: TE_BEAM ( and the resend ) I was just waiting 'til I had some stuff to send and was keeping it a bit separate from the gaunt discourse for the moment.
I concur with your general opinion, though I still want to implement the design. Shouldn't be very hard anyway, and I have some specific map designs that are highly relevant.
Feedback later today. If I seem to be getting a little slow with replying it's just that I think I should spend more time in front of qME and Radiant instead of Hotmail ;)
Some Stuff You Might Be Intrested In....
I made a model once for a 'broodling', kinda like a small vore-type monster (looked related to a vore). The idea was that it would walk on dark ceilings high above, then drop down on a line of 'spider web' (invisible really) when the player had his back turned. It would then creep up behind the player (actually you could hear a quiet clicking of its claws) and perform a simple melee attack. Typically get around 6 of them attacking at the same time. You could send a rocket up into dark ceilings and see them falling down like apples ;) .
The code was never quite finished though. If anyone is interested (ie: wants to use them in a map or something) I'll upload the stuff.
Also I made a maggot enemy with an example map, you might have seen it.
Someone should also convert all the Hexen 2 monsters...
...some smallish, fast and scareish monsters in Quake, just like facehugger from AvP or headcrab from Half-Life. That's first.
For the second I'd love to see a decent flying enforcer with proper model, animation and code.
For the third I'd much appreciate any good techy-melee monster, like, I dunno- a fiend plated with armour, mechanical dog or something like that.
However, you guys rock with modelling, skinning, coding and sounding the new stuff for Quake, which the community can use in projects, maps etc. Respect to you all, magicians =)
'...some smallish, fast and scareish monsters in Quake, just like facehugger from AvP or headcrab from Half-Life. That's first.'
Kona's Carved in Flesh has a miniture but fast fiend that is very convincing in that role.
But the problem is I don't understand and tolerate any resized standard Quake monsters, because it looks ridiculous. =( =(
Necros And I Are
so ahead of you guys ;)
my model work using Blender isn't intended for Quake, but okay, you deserve that one uppage
It Wasn't Intended
Go Ahead, The Model Is Nice
pat yourself on the back. You're a good kid, Kell. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Cheeky bastid... now put your web page back up somewhere (if it is already, URL!?)
'You're A Good Kid, Kell. Don't Be So Hard On Yourself.'
was meant as a South Park allusion and not as an insult. You're awesome, Kell.
Anyways, my mom says I'm cool.
Sorry About Bumping The Thread
but hows the progress going?
(i'm a little excited about new monsters)
Floyd went to the petition for making Logo
candidate, meanwhile bulls and crickets made Floyd almost run for soldier.
For the part of the floyd.mdl I'm working on;
First of all - where to get those blue Mega Enforcers?
Secondly - how to put them in your level? Is it a complex process?
The original incarnation of the Mega Enforcers can be found in Zerst�rer add-on for Quake. If you can find the zer download, it also includes the devkit (including quakec sources). You options would be to:
a) use the original Zer quakec (disabling all unneeded stuff like weapon precaches and whatnot from the quakec sources).
b) port the Mega Enforcer code to ID or Hipnotic quakec sources.
The original incarnation of the Mega Enforcers can be found in Zerst�rer add-on for Quake. If you can find the zer download, it also includes the devkit (including quakec sources). You options would be to:
a) use the original Zer quakec (disabling all unneeded stuff like weapon precaches and whatnot from the quakec sources).
b) port the Mega Enforcer code to ID or Hipnotic quakec sources.
I have no idea how to do any of that. What you did to get them into your latest map? I have seen these guys in numerous levels so I thought they have been released to public as some custom monster pack or something.
I mean - I guess I need the code for the guys and the models - but would I have to do more than just place them in correct directories within the Pak file?
All that knockin'on Logo's door...
Ask Floyd yourself, as ready it is.
Here's A Command:
Basically, I downloaded the Zetst�rer and Scourge of Armagon QuakeC sources, figured what I wanted added/changed from the Scourge of Armagon sources and asked Kinn for help. The progs.dat that comes with my latest map is based on SoA + megaenforcer code ported from Zer, SoA weapon precaches disabled and a misc_ambient entity added for custom ambient sounds.
Good Advice, Jago
SoA QuakeC source creates suprisingly few bugs and conflicts in the registers when integrated with other sources. I had a devil of a time with Rouge some time back.
A Not So Custom Monster Or Two
Ok, two models that might, *might* just pass as quake style...although neither of them are new custom monsters, so don't get all excited folks.
The first one I made way back when people last posted in this thread about the mega enforcer. I've always reckoned that the force field, cute as it may be, isn't the best that the quake engine could do, so I've made an new model, with a different effect. It looks a bit like the glquake glow shells...but don't let that put you off. To try it in quake, find a mod/map that has mega-enforcers, and replace the enforce2.mdl in the progs folder with the model in:
Ok, if messing with the untouchable classic zerstorer wasn't bad enough, I've gone and made...a replacement vore! So, why would I bother, and why would you want to use one? The idea is that people who don't own a copy of quake would be able to play custom maps using just the shareware, if it wasn't for all those missing models from pak1.pak. So I have the slightly ambitious aim to replace these monsters.
The catch is, that I'm sure you'd agree it'd be a shame if the new monsters didn't fit in with that special quake atmosphere, so that's where you guys come in. If you would download the model, try it out, and give me some pointers as to what to change to make it match the style of quake, it'd be really helpful. Just forgive the walk animation, this isn't the final model, I'm still trying to get it to match up with the movement of the original, and right now it looks a bit off.
Oh, almost forgot a link to the vore model:
PS: There is an evil .tga skin with the vore, for evil people who use evil custom engines.
i don't think it looks very good. the proportions are all off. the torso is too skinny and the arms are too beefy. also, the wierd ridge/scales on the bottom part of the legs look strange.
attack animation could be smoother as well. also, the little spikelets on the face should be a bit more fat and juicy. ;)
good job with the skin though, getting all the nice details crammed in there. with this added detail, maybe you could try to get the skin a bit less 'smooth'.
it's a good start though, so keep it up!
for the mega enforcer, that effect works pretty well.
cunning idea there with the mega enforcer shield :) The only drawback is that it has to be skinned with the palette's very few fullbrights and of course there's no transparency. But for an implementation of someone else's idea, it does the job very well.
Om On Fire
repersent me when i talk
I'm Evel What's You'r Name
it just meens a funny way to let me out of funny would.
And Before The Toppic Runs Dry...
Well I decided to put my own Quake1 monsters on my site:
They are also on the ModB site bundeled as an addon:
I saw the floyd model used on Quake terminus as logo.., what will Metropolis play when he sees?
Great models you have there, Preach!
Nice enemies Madfox, a bit disparate so I can't immediately think of how to combine them well, but some good work.
The Grrl puts me in mind of a Q2 TC / expansion - after seeing how the Infantry was used in Bastion. Maybe five or so enemies ported across -
Could be interesting as a code project.
The Shalrath I'm not to fond of (Preach) it looks like you're going a bit insectoid in the style, whereas I prefer the shaggy netherworld creature look of the original.
The MegaEnforcer shield is excellent - you just inverted the normals I take it, clever idea.
Can't remember the thread where all the concept stuff was being posted, although I have alot of it now to go in my screensaver / reference folder.
Might put togther a creature or two and try dusting off the old anim skills.
I just ran the grrl under Quoth, so when the rocketeers turned up the grrl had rockets =)
I made them as substitutes for the usual monsters in Quake, sharpened my knowledge of their behaviour. Great you can make them work in a mod.
The idea for the bat to compare the scrag was an old wish I had as I thought the dungeons of medieval quake deserved it. But it's a hard trade to see the vertices getting meshed up from a clean dxf!
Now I'm working on a tricerops-like model I saw in that "HellBoy" movie, as it has a strange attitude of the demon_fiend. I wonder if I can get that medusa head working.
Interesting stuff - I've got a huge list of possible q1 enemies, and since they're fairly simple (8 frames for a run cycle! Less than 1000 polys!) I should get off my arse and put them together.
Oops, I Mean
Doing some house cleaning today and came across an email convo between Mindcrime and myself about his possible inclusion in the Travail team (March 6 2006). Mention was made of the original idea for endboss of episode 2:
The Twins are a different kettle of fish. Think two slightly up scaled Ogre's - torso, head and arms only - each is bolted to a hover platform. The Twins aren't dressed as ogres though, they look like the Enforcer's much older, angry, armoured brothers. One twin sports an SNG integrated into the end of his left arm. The right forearm has been replaced by a long pointed shock rod. The other twin's left forearm has been converted into a dual rocket launcher which delivers slightly staggered homing missiles. This one's right fist has been replaced with a buzz saw. Keep your distance and you'll cop it from their left side, get in close and feel the pain from their right. If you are still alive after they've depleted their ammunition, they will definitely close in for some face to face action.
Ah, the dreams of man...
Shut The Fuh Up.
Perfect Monster Would Be...
... genetic mutation in between a Shambler, a Gug and a Scragg.... though...
Was close to that. Shame you never got to fight him...
someone could re-rig him and make a monster........
An Old One from Lovecraft's dream cycle.
Almost impossible to animate though. Most pictures of it are crap - the tentacles / feelers should be meters long...
... Inever finished Zerstorer... maybe I should consider it ;)
Out, Heretic, Out
I Only Made 1 Model
I'd love to know what programs people use here that are still into quake1 modeling/animation...
There's not much info on making Q1 baddies :)
Looks good, although I thought its arms are unskinned.
The player looks like in deathmatch.
There are several programs for modelling in Quake. They are old but sufficient.
Each have th�ir own specifics.
Here are a few links of the programs I use.
Qmle is more for modelling
The Old Quark4.07 has a model studio
Binairy for Quake mdl
Preach Modelling Help (Very Good!)
Wally is more for texturing.
Thanks for replying. I'm currently looking into Blender and already had Qme installed. It's easy to use .dxf and .mdl formats to swap files between the two programs.
Question: what exactly is the the limit for a model in a modern engine? Does anyone know?
BTW: nice link to that modeling help indeed, thanks again :)
Depends Which Limit
480 height is the limit for a texture and engines tend to crash with non-power of 2 textures. Although all the id1 tex's are non power of two, its worth bearing in mind if a mesh crashes the thing and you don't know why.
Frames limit is 256 - any more than that and you'll need to split the Qc file, although thats the advanced class.
I don't think there's a limit on polys, but there probably will be. Haven't tried hirez.
What Exactly Is The The Limit For A Model?
Maximum number of triangles: 2048
Maximum number of vertices: 1024
Maximum number of texture coordinates: 1024
Maximum number of frames: 256
Number of precalculated normal vectors: 162
it should be noted that in stock glquake, i believe max triangles is 1000? or something really low (even though dos/winquake have the limits madfox posted).
i believe most (all?) modern engines based on glquake have upped the limit to match software quake.
also, non-power-of-2 skin crashing an engine sounds like bs to me. that would make the engine crash whenever it tried to run the game since all the skins in stock quake are non-power-of-2. it might have been that weird bug with the top corner pixel colour or something, although that usually just makes the whole skin black.
Although all the id1 tex's are non power of two, its worth bearing in mind if a mesh crashes the thing and you don't know why.
I've seen a crash from bad skin size and I don't know why. Playing safe I've fixed it in the past by making the skin a power or 2.
Not A Coder
but isnt that only if you tried to use voodoo cards and minigl or whatever it was called.
When I read/watch general low-poly character tutorials online, I see the artist work with quads and they only split the quad in triangles at the joints for proper mesh bending.
However, Quake 1 models can only have triangles, right? No quad polygons. I remember reading that somewhere and every original Q1 model I've observed in Qme, is triangular all the way.
Quads are only a visual thing anyway - in reality they're still split into triangles, you just don't see it.
But yeah, triangles only. Since there's so few polys you'll need the extra control anyway to get the precise dimensions right.
Wait A Minute...
"in reality they're still split into triangles, you just don't see it. "
If I read that statement above, I'd think I don't have to manually split the quads into triangles...
However, I've done an experiment with a simple object that only had quads and loaded it into Qme. Qme would then split the quads into triangles, but it did so by cutting/deleting the quad poly into half :)
I Forgot To Mention
Forgot to add that in the Preach Quake Expo tutorial (day 2:
he doesn't mention triangles at all (or I've missed it) and gets a default object in quake. Yet the weapon model in the same tutorial (day 3), is all triangles again...
Perhaps the md3 export already took care of the quads or gmax and blender work differently in that regard?
I'll figure it out. Perhaps I'll just model with quad loops first as in a great low-poly tut I found and then later fix it to be triangles and lower-res. On the other hand, I also observed a female .md2 model in Qme and I'm amazed how efficient that was done. You can clearly see how it's NOT just extruded loops. Instead, every part of the model is carefully optimized in triads in a very specific manner. For instance, there's some lower detail on certain parts, like the arms, but the vertices are moved around just right so that the shoulder and/or forearm still has necessary accents. The poly's that are saved this way are used to make a nice female buttocks :) Man, that's so awesome! I think that must be Paul Steed who was probably already working at id at that time... what a freak!
Triangles And Low Poly Reference
The most important thing I do in gmax is to work with an "editable mesh" type object. In the modify tab you then have the option to select by face(which automatically goes down to triangles), or by polygon (which preserves the quads if the model is made of them).
That tutorial is no longer state of the art, fiddling around with Quark can be replaced with
or the other tool I can't find a link to right now.
Also, for some great examples of low-poly work, including some helpful tips on the cheapest way to create properly deforming limbs, check out the low poly thread on polycount:
Thanks for that missing link about Gmax, Preach.
Those guys at Polycount still haven't finished their main webpage... how many years is this?
BTW: you're not 'Preacher' that created the map Aerowalk, are you?
Afraid he pre-dates me by a little while, 'tis a great map.
Not Costom Quake1 Monster Yet
That get's asked a lot...
@ Lardarse: What gets asked a lot? Whether Preach is Preacher, or any of my other questions in this topic?
@ MadFox: a modified Ogre, I like it :)
It's the original Ogre, but he wasn't costom enough.
If He's Preacher
The oldogre is now feared and worshipped by all the other ogres.
madfox sobs in russian bablefish...
Hi From A New Mapper
Hi all.. very interesting thread !
I'm making(trying) new models for my single player Quake projects
Welcome! So do you have any pictures of your work? :D
Here's What I Use
3dsMax for the 3D
Qwalk to export the models
Photoshop for the textures
Goldwave for sounds
notepad++ for coding
fteqcc to compile the Qc
Maybe concentrate on one thing at first, but once you get a bit more practice monsters can be put together pretty quickly. Making GOOD monsters is harder and takes a lot more time, but is worth it.
A lot of the stuff I list up there I have access to through work, though there are a lot of freeware programs that can be used instead - I've heard of Animation Master, Blender, Paint Shop Pro etc that can be used instead of the otherwise expensive 3D/2D stuff.
gimp is a free alternative to photoshop.
i had a really hard time trying to use it though, because i've been using photoshop for years now. i think, though, if you never used photoshop, learning gimp would be simple because you don't have to unlearn all the PS shortcuts.
i hear often that it's quite good, too.
+1 To GIMP
Great UI. Has its qerks but its good. Can take a while to load, it always loads loads of fonts before opening. I think photoshop is probably much better TBH. I've been using CS4 web edition which doesn't have photoshop, but the draw module in Flash I thought was awesome. You cant do that stuff with GIMP. You can do weird script-stuff in GIMP but I have never had a handle on any of that stuff. :(
Do you mean vectors? Use Inkscape for that.
I love GIMP. And I really like it's seperate windows because my window manager allows me to control them nicely.
Yeah, But There's No Line Tool.
To do simple drawing I have to use paint. But for editing bitmaps GIMP is awesome. I mean there's a clone tool, brushes like PSP, a magic wand selection tool like photoshop etc. But it doesnt have a line tool. Sometimes a curved line is what you need, and you cant get one from GIMP.
or selections. Draw On Selection or something.
Here's what I've been thinking about one of our 'new' enemies.
It should be a Shalrath class enemy, although much more defensive / medic class.
The vomit attack is its primary ability:
It eats any gibs lying around if it has no player in view or has no player, which become gib ammo.
If a grenade is fired at it then it is diffused and becomes grenade ammo.
It only vomits at player entities
When vomiting it fires a qty of stuff at the player dependant on the skill level 1-4
Grenades act the same as normal player grenades - they bounce and later explode
If a Vomitus manages to hit itself with a Grenade or gib then it is re-consumed
Gib ammo bounces but does not explode, causing 5 damage to any non-undead hit
Grenade ammo bounces and explodes as normal, it can gib undead
Any non-special ammo is deigned as blood ammo, the default
Blood ammo does not bounce and causes 3 damage on hit
As well as this the Vomitus can create zombies (after chewing) from any human-sized corpse. Bigger corpses produce a zombie and a number of gibs dependant on how big it is.
A gib produces one gib ammo
Dogs and fish produce two gib ammos
Scrags, Grunts and Enforcers produce a zombie and one gib ammo
Ogres produce a zombie and 3 gib ammos
Vores Produce two zombies and 3 gib ammos
Shamblers produce three zombies and 2 gib ammos
A dead player produces one zombie and one gib ammo, and any grenades carried are converted to grenade ammo
So, the ideaa is that it's not transforming the corpse but instead reconstituting it into something else...
I'm thinking also that three rockets or a combination of damages finishing with a rocket are needed since it instantly 'dispels' grenades and has a melee ability to fall back on called devour.
Devour deals 100 damage to anything hit, instantly converting it to ammo if killed (removing any corpse)
Vomitii ignore attacks by all other monsters (they're not the sensitive type)
Other monsters can't gib a Vomitus, and forget about it once it temporarily dies
Sounds A Bit Complicated For Quake?
That's just a gut reaction though.
Pretty Much My Reaction Too
first, i don't think it needs ammo.
i like the idea that it gains the ability to fire a grenade if it catches one, but there's no need to complicate matters by keeping track of how many it's got. all a player needs to know is that "when i fire a grenade at this thing, it can fire it back". a simple 'if grenade is caught, then next attack is a grenade attack' type of thing is all that's needed to convey this. after the first grenade catch, subsequent grenades are still caught, but won't trigger another grenade attack until the first has been completed.
also, i don't see why it couldn't catch missiles too. while it would be cool if it could fire actual missiles back at the player from a gameplay pov, it doesn't really make much sense. still, if it could convert missiles to grenades, that'd still be an interesting mechanic.
for it's normal ranged attack, i don't see why you'd want to limit it with gib ammo unless it's some kind of overpowering ability, which would be bad for other reasons.
as for the whole zombie resurrection thing, it seems like there's too many abilities on one monster. especially if you're going use the vomitus as a base, which has a really boring and ugly model. basically just a blob with a couple of tentacles.
this is just opinion, but resurrection abilities seem way too cool to put on a blob. :P
The 'I fire this, it fires it back' is pretty much what it does. The whole 'ammo' thing is just how it works internally.
Not being able to change rockets is just to allow the player to kill it, explained that the velocity of the thing causes it to explode.
The overpowering ability is being able to manufacture new enemies - the ressurection thing is just to underline the fact that it's undead and make it tough to kill. It can also start 'deflated' until triggered.
Already redone the mesh :)
Finally, about the complexity, a lot of our monsters are more complex than the originals, but to the player remain relatively simple. The idea isn't to confuse the player but leave them thinking 'ah cool, I'll be ready for that next time!'
So grunts that strafe and reload as opposed to patient Enforcers who lie in wait makes both more complex from a code standpoint, but the game more varied and interesting overall.
is the typical open source application. It has great features, is stable and performs well, but it looks and feels like shit. It does not adhere to any GUI standards on any platform that I know! I have never been able to use it at all.
I find Gimp, Blender, and GTKRadiant a lot more intuitive than PaintShopPro, Gmax, and Worldcraft.
I haven't tried Photoshop because I can't be arsed to pay the monstrous sum that some evil commercial entity requires. Same for 3ds max. I find Blender's UI to be superb, actually. GIMP is getting there, it's already down to two windows.
Also, wasn't there something called GimpShop that has a Photoshop-like UI? Or did that project die?
Looks Pretty Alive And Kicking To Me
Better A Half Knight Then No Horse!
jpl sure has to take a look at it!
I don;t get it .... o_O
I was aiming to the broken teleporter in one of your levels. It's still on my mind.
The knight tried the wrong teleporter and ended up like this.
... hmmmm... I don't see what you are thinking about... nv
Half arrives at one telepad and the other half on the opposite side of the dungeon.
i actually thought it was going to be like a special knight version where you kill him and his torso keeps coming after you, floating like that, with the entrails dangling.
broken teleporter is goofy. :P
I was thinking of a level, where there is a broken teleporter.
It looked something like this, but I can't remember the name of the level.
Anyone ever thought of remodeling some of the Silent Hill monsters for Quake? I know it wouldn't be original, but there's some pretty Fucked Up Shit in Silent Hill that would probably fit in Quake.
i liked those strange acid belching armless zombie things in the SH movie.
Yeah I always thought the Silent Hill monsters, or at least some of them, would work well in Quake. But I wouldn't just take them and move them into Quake, I would just use them as reference/inspiration.
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