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New Q1SP: Bastion Of The Underworld
Ok, here it is - my first shot at mapping :)

Best described as a rolling, rumbling descent into Quake 1 single player devastation - with a few new surprises along the way; this is part of a larger episode that will be released later this year.

Especially big thanks to aguirRe for his encouragement and supporting me with his compile utils. WinQuake recommended; make sure you use -heapsize 32000 or higher.



Demos appreciated :)
Looks Great! 
Will give it a whirl when I get in from work ! =) 
This map is uber impressive!!!

I liked everything: modified and new monsters, sounds, architecture, atmosphere, GAMEPLAY!

Kinn you Rock!

They killed me somewhere in the middle, so this is not the full demo sorry:

Only flaw is the lack of the skybox in the distribution and no single line in the readme where to get it and how to enable it in the fitzquake, so i played with checkered sky till i died. After they killed me i set up some cute volcano sky and continued with it, which increased the pleasure of course :)

So people, get ready your favourite skyboxes and enable them with the "sky skyboxname" command in the Fitzquake!!!

Kinn, keep em coming! :) 
Thanks Vondur! 
I'm glad you liked it - and your demo rocked as well!

Looks like I made a cock up with the skybox. :(. I removed it from the pak at the last minute to keep the filesize down, but I forgot to test how custom engines handle it's absence.

For the record, it was "ofelas" from Kell's site, but i can't seem to reach that site at the moment.

Again, I apologise for this and suggest to others to follow Vondur's advice and manually enable a skbox of your choice if playing in a custom engine. 

Super! I'm impressed a lot!

I must say the same as Vondur: I liked everything, especially the gameplay. I want to make something like that in my future map (not upcoming, after that). I like ambushes and spawning monsters.

The only thing that I may not like in any other map is base monsters in medieval (gothic) maps, but I must say I liked them in your map.

And you didn't mention in readme some point I'd be interested to know:
How long did it take you to make this map?
What editor did you use?

I want to tell something more, but can't fight myself, I want play it again one more time =) 
I'm Afraid... 
If your first map was this good, God only knows where it'll go from here ;D Killer map, Kinn -- can't wait to play the full ep. 
am i the only one that can't play the map?
fitzquake and glquake crash saying there is a missing model ("progs/q2weap/v_shotg.mdl")
and winquake crashes with "Hunc_Alloc: failed on 1807696 bytes" even with -winmem 64.

what's the deal? 
the model name was:
progs / q2weap / v_shotg.mdl (without the spaces) 
necros: type "saved1 0" at the console and restart the level.

You've stumbled across a relic from the time when I had the full Quake2 arsenal in the game. Glitches like this will occur if the saved1 cvar is set to something other than 0.

As for the other error; I'm afraid I'm not sure about that one - i'll look into it.

PuLSaR and biff - I'm glad you like it!

To answer your questions, Pulsar - Editor: Valve Hammer Editor 3.4

Build time - on and off for a few months, but the QC has been simmering away for a lot longer than that - much of it probably dates back to 2002. 
you say winquake crashes with -winmem 64. I'm not familiar with the "winmem" command - I use winquake with -heapsize 32000, so you could try that. 
Sweet Zombie Jesus 
300 monsters! Fucking hell!!! 
Looks Amazing + 300 Monsters 
i'll try to review this map soon. :) 
Not To Be Negative, But... 
Screenshots look great, please update the pak/zip to include the skybox, I'll wait for that before I play it.

I don't want to go to the hassle of trying to find some other (probably inappropriate) skybox to use with it, I'd really rather just see the proper one without any fucking around. : )

I for one don't give a shit about the file size. 
I would download the Kell skybox that you mentioned, but I can't access his site either (I tried a few days ago and it was down then too) 
He He Sweet Zombie Jesus Good One LTH 
I have a new curse to add to my repartoire.

Can't wait to play it -- but now I'm going to make good on my promise to Necros -- perhaps tommorrow I'll get the chance.

Those screen shots are enough to make me cry as it is. 
ok, my file hosting situation is really fubared at the moment, so i can't upload a new pak for a while, but you can get the skybox from my yahoo briefcase:

id: goatrender
pass: gibsloocher

go to "my documents" - look for

hope this works ok. 
Once again Ugly American doing the French wrong. 
I grabbed the skybox from there, everything worked fine... thank you! 
Sigh.. Me Again 
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me where to put the skybox textures...

I've tried putting them here:


and I've tried putting them inside the bastion pak0.pak file under gfx/env, nothing works, where the hell do the skies go? FitzQuake readme doesn't say... 
well, heapsize is the glquake command line for ram and winmem is the command line for dosquake and winquake. winmem is in MB though whereas heapsize is kb, so -winmem64 ~ -heapsize 64000

i haven't tried it yet, but i suspect resetting saved1 to 0 should fix it in winquake as well.



306/306 (dzip) (zip)

holy shit! what an awesome map! dude this was so much fun! it's nearly my ideal idea of a map. great huge architecture, big fire, tons of monsters and just really awesome gameplay.

i liked all the little qc tricks like the rotating brushes and such. i hated the new explosion sprite which looked blue and ugly... there's a nice sprite i used for nesp06/09 if you want, or just stick with the regular one.
also, that axe is fucking jokes! it's so damn cool and you're right. it is useful. (although, only at the beginning)

just too much good stuff to comment on. i'm really impressed.

there were a few misaligned textures usually on faces that are at 45 degree angles on two planes.

i died at the second to last massive fight because i wasn't expecting so many monsters. :D

also, i was surprised by how well the q2 monster fit in with the grunts. that thing is brutal though... sometimes it would hit me even after i had killed it which was annoying. i'm pretty sure they did that in q2 too.
what was that wierd minotaur like monster? it was kinda neat... fucking hard though... sometimes it would charge as i would shoot a rocket and i'd end up doing myself in. :P

can't wait for the next maps! 
i put skybox i had (6 files vlcno*.tga) in the quake/bastion/gfx/env dir. that worked for me.... 
Note #1: Fitzquake can't load jpegs. Only pcx and tga. That's why the sky from the yahoo briefcase doesn't work.

Note #2: Fitzquake looks in gfx/env, since that seems to be the standard for quake1 skyboxes (not that i've ever seen a quake map release that has a skybox.)

Note #3: If the sky is in the right place, it should load automatically when the map starts.

Note #4: This map rocks! So far i've seen a big flame model that looks great, and really cool flak cannon ogres -- it's a perfect new weapon for the ogre (i never liked the regular old nail ogres people used to use.) 
Re: the skybox - I'm afraid the only custom engine I use is Darkplaces, so I wasn't aware of it's incompatibility with Fitzquake - my bad :(

Necros - massive thanks for the demo, it's always great to see people's first run through :)

The Minotaur-beast is the "Shuffler", and they come in two varieties - did you by any chance get to see the White Shuffler's little surprise attack? ;) 
Yeah, I didn't even download the sybox and it played fine in Darkplaces, just with an original Quake sky. 
There's Stuff In Your Briefcase!? 
Not when I go there.

Anyway, I relabelled Speedy's "Elbrus" sky, and that fitted well.

One day I may get around to trying to play it. Some fine architecture here. 
Two Quick Tips 
for FitzQuake players. To get normal animated grey Q1 sky, just enter sky "" in the console. This disables the static Q2 skybox.

The default heapsize in FQ is 32MB, but even with that you might experience occasional stutter in-game. I'd suggest adding -heapsize 48000 (48MB) to the command line for better performance. Your mileage may vary. 
Did you do something to the damage boost physics? I can't seem to get any height on grenade and rocket jumps?

Maybe I'm just rubbish :-) 
Just checked and it's still there when I log in. If anyone has problems getting the skybox, contact me and I will email it.

I know this whole situation sucks, but I'm afraid I'm a bit behind the times with this here intarweb thing ;) seriously, once I get some proper webspace sorted out, I'll upload a new pak with 'box included. 
Damage Momentum 
The rocket jump situation...damn I was hoping no-one would bring this up :P.

Ok, here's my shaky justification for it:

Long after I had locked down all the brushwork, I discovered a situation where you could rocket jump up to the switch that activates the main gate to the exit, resulting in no monsters/ammo spawned for the final battle, and general suckage.

Realising that this situation would generally only be encountered by speedrunners, I ignored it until the last minute, when I got paranoid and fudged a quick fix by reducing the self-inflicted damage momentum (i.e. rocket jumps).

I knew that this would be controversial, so I'll probably introduce an impulse to toggle this for speedrunners, when I re-release this as part of the full episode.

I hope this hasn't marred your enjoyment too much :) 
2nd Screenie 
looks fantastic.

No time to play ATM but I'll give this a look whenever possible. 
I See. 
In that case, if you're going to release is again with the damage boosts corrected (and it'd be great if you did. :-)) can you also remove the invisible barriers that probably only speedrunners will ever find such as the one at the far end of the lava hall.

Outstanding map, by the way. The talk in IRC this morning has been of little else for the last hour or two. Very impressive but the deliberate stifling of the maps runnability has caused immense vexation. ;-)

I can't wait to see what you do next. The only thing I found tricky in my first run through was the lack of armour in the middle section. Ammo was always plentiful and the fighting was bastard tough. 
Great Fun, But Some Oddities... 
There seems to be a bug whereby sprites get a bit fucked up... I've picked up health packs that look like those orange nail the variant ogres fire and gibbed a rocket box :-)

The shortcut preventing invisible sprites are annoying, too :-) 

*FUCKING FUN! lots of killin' involved.

*Great map design, nicely connected, rather than just room after room of stuff.


*too much hacking :/ This seems to be a problem with overly qc'ed maps. Since quake wasnt designed for whatever addition, youve had to cover up bugs with various little fixes. I had a few problems with monsters turning into sprites, or monsters going invisible :\. Personally, i would drop all the qc and just use your wonderful map with normal quake stuff.

*I cant rocket jump :0 What the heck? i can only go about 1/2 the height with my rocket/grenade jumps!?

*way too much ammo everywhere, i didnt have a single problem killing 300+ monsters, even in the rooms where there were several shamblers etc.

*Packet overflows avast. Especcially when i try to speed run, and rush through the last room without killing anything.

*Invisible walls?? Dood, this is seriously not cool :) In the bit with the bridge over the lava that needs to be pulled up by two switches. I try to take a shortcut with some bunnies and a slope jump, instead of raising the bridge, and low and behold there is an invisible wall blocking my path.

Well.. hope you enjoyed my rant. I definatly enjoyed playing your map ;) 
The reason why some people have problems finding the file in your Yahoo briefcase might be that they're already signed in as themselves and then they can't see anything.

They need to first sign ut and then sign in as you. It took me a while to figure out as well, but I've now got the skybox and will convert it into TGA for FitzQuake. 
Oooooh.. i just had a monster turn into a scrag's yellow stuff. scary! 
Mwh, Sidd... 
The bug you describe where models/sprites are messed up sounds worrying. I've never encountered that before.

Could you please elaborate on what engine and setup you are using please.

Re: speedrunning restrictions, invisible barriers etc...

To support a qc system that allows for 300+ monsters (and all the ammo) in the standard engines, I had to enforce a rather linear gameplay route, and sadly speedrunning attempts can often reveal some of the strings being pulled to acheive this.

I'm afraid i'm going to have to put this down to my relative inexperience, and promise to rectify this in the future release. 
You mentioned a lot of talk of this in irc. I'd love to read some of this but I'm afraid I don't have irc - could someone possibly email me with a log?

aguirRe - good idea with the tga conversion, cheers :) 
Bug Stuff 
Thanks for the hasty reply. :)

Ive tested the map with joequake-gl.exe as well as standard gl quake. i ran both with -mem 32 command line extension. Both had the same problem. Mosnters seem to mysteriously turn into other models, (and sprites i think?), so far ive had an ogres turn into a nails, ammo boxes, and empty space (still killable though), and scrags turning into variouse things, including scrag spew and a grunt(!). Most often this happens when im not looking at the monster, and when there is lots of chaos going on around me. The monsters are still killable when this happens, though im not sure whether they can attack. They seem to take up the same ammount of space, and move about like normal.

Theres not much else i can really tell, you. Ill have a go at recording it.

As for the speedrunning gripes, i wouldnt let it worry you too much. I enjoyed the level alot, but i was just dissapointed when i found out i couldnt run it properly. If you can find ways to resolve the few issues, that would be great, but even so, the level is really fun to play.

Great Map! 

Couldn't beat the last beasts, was running low on ammo, no armours, no health packs left, and I've used penta and quad before :)

Excellent layout and gorgeous architecture. Too bad you haven't included a proper skybox (don't give a shit about those, who won't download your map because it's 0.5 MB bigger).
The last area just owned me. I liked the two types of meatgrinders as well, I've even fallen down into one of them ;) Great stuff like rotating doors or breakable walls. Good usage of custom stuff, sounds and monsters- I liked especially nailing ogres and the shuffler (minotaur?), however I don't appreciate anything related to Q2, also I don't think grunts match to that gothic theme.

Gameplay is awesome, I just love such a battles. Also, the moment when you're opening the rotating door with that creeeeeeeeeeek sound was quite scary :) As well as when I first met the minotaur monster. The second big battle and the first one, where minotaur spawns, was very unexpected and nice :)

Summa summarum, a masterpiece, a must see and a must be. Minus for not including the skybox (although- for quite understandable reasons)

Keep up the excellent work =) 
Model Glitches 
I have to say I'm really stumped. Maybe this is a glquake thing, because I've never come across this in the countless times I've tested in WinQuake and DarkPlaces.

It sounds like the engine is getting the self.modelindex or self.model wrong, but either way it seems to be one of those annoying bugs that only surfaces in certain engines.

Do the monsters that this happens to spawn mid-game? Can you described any specific locations/occurences of this?

aguirRe, any thoughts? 
I Haven't Played It 
properly yet, I've just briefly checked it out technically in FitzQuake and my own simple GLQuake engine.

The only thing I've noticed is the large heapsize requirements (>32MB) when having full pak loaded (not just the bsp) at startup.

But I do remember players having similar model problems with the Soul Of Evil pak. I myself was sometimes chased by ammo boxes which felt a bit weird ...

At the time I recall vaguely one could get around it by using savegames or something about the engine startup sequence. I don't believe I have that particular QMap thread available; it was lost when QMap died. 
Weird Entities 
I didn't have any probs with using winquake and a heapsize of 64000.

I don't think this is the same as the soul of evil thing as that (if I remember) involved starting single player maps with DM (or DMSP) settings and the entities taking the wrong entitiy numbers. So in that case ALL scrags would look like nailboxes (or whatever) not just one.

If anyone manages to record this happening I'd be interested to see it (and try and solve it :-)). 
i rocketjumped to the quad/666 secret w/o probs. but maybe there were no probs for me cuz the height wasn't that big... 
I Found An Old EMail 
with the SoE issue. You need to select New Game, Single Player before reloading saved games after starting Quake. There are probably some necessary progs.dat code that runs when you do that.

Since I haven't played it yet, I don't know if it helps in the Bastion pak. 
A Demo Showing Some Of The Oddities

Three strange things happening: at about 6:40 there's a deathknight shaped like a gib, at about 11:20 there's a fiend with an explosion sprite and just before I die stupidly around 15:00 there's a ogre looking like a nail.

It looks like recently used entity numbers are retaining their shape or something like that? 
MisYu - fantastic! I just love hearing these reviews :) I'm so glad this map is being so well received.

An update on the skybox issue - i'm trying to upload a fixed .zip with skybox included (jpeg version), but my connection keeps buggering me about. I hope to have something up in the next hour or two.

aguirRe, Morfans - good sleuthing :), let's hope we can get to the bottom of this.

Vondur, yep - I made sure that places that require rocket jumps (just that one secret actually), are still accessible. 
Hmmm... I've tried playing the demo in both winquake and darkplaces, but in both cases, it crashes just at the start as soon as you start hacking the knights.

Very puzzling. What engine did you record this in? Also in Winquake, it dumped an abnormally large number of "total channels == max channels" error messsages to the console, much more than i get if i just load the map. 
Mwh Again 
Just tried the demo in GLQuake; same thing happened - tons of max_channels messages and the thing crashed a few seconds in, just after the knights with the error message:

Host_Error: CL_ParseServerMessage: Illegible Server Message 
do you plan to include a custom engine executable with the full episode? Probably advisable, given the number of QC changes made. 
That sounds like a very good idea. I'll include the latest stable version of DarkPlaces with the episode, although again I will strive to ensure WinQuake compatibility.

If there's one thing I learned from all this, it's that I grossly underestimated the popularity of custom engines. Also, not all engines load skyboxes in the same way :| 
Try This Baby With Tomazquake! 
gltomaz.exe -game bastion -con_alpha 0.5 -nomtex -primarysound -width 1280 -height 1024 -heapsize 32000 -noipx -nolan -dinput -zone 1024 +map bastion %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9
Another Technical Issue 
I forgot to mention before, this map is over the normal limit (32k) of marksurfaces; I get a warning when I load the bsp in my own engine.

I've no idea if this is related to the entity problems but AFAIK, anything could happen in the engine when this limit is exceeded.

If anyone can or cannot reproduce the problem either in my engine or in TyrQuake (which also has this limit extended), it might offer a hint to what's causing it. 
Zip Updated - Skybox Included 
Should work fine now. Same URL as before:

skybox still jpeg though, so some people may still have problems. 
Ah, I'm The Annoying Linux User... 
I recorded the demo in joequake. Sometimes people have had to run 'demtool -n' on my demos before playing them, I'm not sure what's happening here. 
Holy GOD! 
man another Quake Genius as born! man great, great, great, great job i love it a lot!!!simply greattttttttttttttttt 
I run in joequake-gl, real cool with 24 bits textures for some of then. Man is realy great to have another great builter! 
21st Century Quake 
I just got the update running and played a huge chunk of it. Love the flak cannon bearing Ogres, the ambient music similar to one of Quake Arenas better levels (too lazy to go back and look it up), everything added up to an amazing new experience.

Cheers to you Kinn, you magnificently talented bastard! 
i didn't see the white shuffler's special attack. at the last fight by the main doors, i was way to low on health, so i stood at the top level and 'nade spammed the monsters to death as they were stomping around in the lower part of the arena.

where are they from originaly? 
necros - the White Shuffler has a great special attack that may not be entirely obvious in a big fight - but once you spot it, I think you'll dig it :)

He started life in a HexenII mission pack. His sounds are from a variety of sources. I made the Shuffler missile sprites from scratch myself, along with the Sergeant's plasma and the decorative plasma balls. Rocket explosion sprite is from another source which I can't for the life of me remember.

HeadThump, and cheers to you my friend :) 
I've Just Started 
playing and noticed that god/notarget cvars are enabled at startup, I have to turn them off explicitly. I noticed this already before when checking out the map that when I thought I enabled the cvars, I actually turned them off (with interesting results ...).

I've checked the saved1 cvar and it's 0 and it doesn't help to set it to 0 again and restart. It's not really a problem since I just turned them off after startup and then they have stayed off, but has anyone else noticed this? 
225 Down 
and so far extremely well balanced gameplay, not to mention the fabulous architecture and eerie lighting.

Minor niggles are some weird shakes when riding platforms and the Q2 enforcer that feels rather out of place, both visually and with its attack. The grey/white static skybox should maybe also have more colours, since the rest of the map is so rich with colours.

This map is a sight for sore eyes, indeed. 
god/notarget are set at startup if you play with "developer 1"

also, with developer 1 you'll probably get a load of funny monster ai messages, also, you get prior warning with many triggered monster spawners - it's not the best way to play the map sadly :(

if you didn't have developer 1 set, and still got the god/notarget, then I'm not sure...

Also, they are now propagated across map transitions, but that shouldn't be an issue. 
I'm not sure what causes the shakes on platforms - it happens to me in WinQuake but not DarkPlaces. I haven't touched the qc plat code AFAIK, but I'll double check.

re: grey sky, well it used to be blood red, but I changed it when I dropped coloured lighting, ;) Besides, I think it matches the grey mountainous skybox better - now provided in the download of course :) 
Developer 1 
that's it, I always play with that enabled. OK, no problem. I noticed the other messages (which don't bother me) and suspected them being caused by the developer cvar, but I didn't see the relation to god/notarget, but now it makes sense.

With the grey sky I meant the static skybox (from your JPGs), not the animated sky which I think suits very well. The animated variant is a bit more colourful than the static. 
mwh - I've tried using demtool -n on your demo file, but I can't even get it to process the file - it seems to abort after a second or two. 
Great Map Kinn 
Very cool, nice lighting, curviness & massive :)
Specially liked the flak gun ogres & the fiery ball sprites.

Someone mentioned the jerkiness with the plats, I also noticed it when the shufflers stomped around in the big arena at the end.

Great stuff, very ambitious & successful. 
Important Download Info. 
I have changed the name of the zip file just to clarify the fact that despite the name, this is NOT a beta version, but the final map.

This is the new URL:

Please note that if you already have the map you DO NOT need to download this, as it is identical in all but the zip name.

The original file is still there for the time being.

Mods, could you please amend my original topic post to reflect the new URL, thanks.

Glassman - thanks! The flak ogres do seem to be very popular :) You mention a shuffler-related problem. Could you please elaborate - do you mean the framerate drops just when the shufflers charge? 
just thought i'd point out:

i noticed in a few places you force quake to display things faster than 0.1 times a second. this can cause lots of problems for people with slower computers, so i'd advise against doing it. a good example is the 'upgraded' LG from my own nesp06/09.
i made the LG fire every 0.01 seconds instead of 0.1 seconds and reduced the damage to 3, instead of 30. theoretically, this should maintain the regular LG's damage rate, however, on slower computers, where the game can't draw as fast as 100 fps, the game simply skips frames and the weapon does less damage. it seems, everything below 0.1 seconds per frame is not guaranteed by quake, whereas at 0.1 and above, quake seems to still keep track of missed frames.

just a little fyi... 
Thanks Necros 
Yes, I recall reading about that.

When charging, Shufflers animate at 20 fps, because they cover so much ground; a 10fps movement anim looks way too jerky. I seem to recall ReaperBots ran at a similar framerate - can anyone confirm this?

Axe attack is also 20fps.

Other >10fps stuff I remember off the top of my head - corpse removal, the sprites -shouldn't affect gameplay hopefully. 
I Don't Know If 
it's related to necros' post, but the shaky platforms might be caused by nearby (or possibly remote) lightning effects. I noticed in another map that when lightning flashed, FitzQuake seemed to shake in a similar way when I was noclipping vertically. 
Do you mean it's possible that the switchable lights in the Fiend Cage could be causing this?

I do remember when compiling isolated sections of my map, sometimes plats would be jerky, sometimes they wouldn't be - I didn't really notice any correlation with the presence of switchables, but then again I wasn't really looking. 
Words Are Not 
cool enough to describe this level. Fantastic!

I loved everything about it, the new qc that actually fitted, new monsters (I like dthe q2 enforcer and the minotaurs), texturing, lighting and impressive architecture.

If there's a whole episode of stuff this good coming, I'm lookinf forward to it greatly.

ps : When you initially posted aboutt the new cq triggered spawning monster type gameplay I was a bit sceptical but it worked very very well I must say. 
As to the weird monsters happening, that may also be to do with compiling the QC with some optimizations turned on. I'd suggest recompiling with all optimizations turned off (if you're using FrikQcc then it's the /o2 switch that's especially dodgy). 
nitin - excellent! btw, I did some tests to see how well my monster spawners reduce edict counts in this map, and it turns out that each spawner accounts for an average of 4 monsters, which is pretty efficient :)

If you consider a normal large quake map consists of 200 monsters, then with this monster/spawner ratio, you could potentially turn it into an 800-monster map(!) that still loads at startup. (whether or not it is ultimately playable of course depends on other factors) ;)

LTH, thanks - I did use FrikQCC, but I always compile with no optimizations. I did once try the optimisations - and there were some very obvious bugs, so I played safe and turned them all off. 
Reading all these replies, I think I will wait for the final release....or at least a patch :P. 
could potentially turn it into an 800-monster map

you know... i'd really like to see the source code for these spawners... ;)
it's nice to get lots of monsters without requiring different engines. 
Shambler - don't worry, if you use WinQuake - as far as I am aware, none of these issues seem to be applicable.

If you are referring to the speedrunning issues - well, that was a design decision :P

Necros - email sent. 
309 Down And Done 
I was pleasantly surprised that the end arena battles weren't as hard as they appeared when I first went through them in god mode. I guess I triggered excessive monster spawns then, so the combat really was insane.

When fighting properly, it was much more reasonable although I had a serious lack of armor at the end. I had to engage both final battles with only 100 health but lots of ammo.

The final "Fiend Puker" was hilarious and as long as it and its offspring kept themselves in the pit, the GL was pretty effective. I found the quad also but didn't need it.

Great stuff, I'm already looking forward to your next map! 
Finally finished this thing after three days of playing it... great fun, great work, Kinn. 
aguirRe, LTH - awesome, thanks for playing guys :)

I suppose there could be a slight armour inbalance toward the end. There is a red armour behind the "Jesus Door", just before the final arena. Also, there is a red armour in a rather "Gloomy" secret near the second lava bridge button. A good tactic would be to clear both these areas before going into the final arena. Then run back and grab the "Gloomy" RA, fight the first wave of monsters in the arena, then just before you go up to the top level, you can grab the other RA behind the Jesus door, if you need it :)

Hehe "Fiend Puker" - i'll have to remember that :) I guess the goal here was to just create a really fun boss monster; and hopefully I succeeded :) 
Review Posted 
at my site

Kinn, excellent custom monsters [Flak Ogres, Sergeants, Shufflers], hope to see them again in other maps [by you or anyone else]. 
Cheers Underworldfan! 
Great review. Love it :) 
Demo Nargery 
Kinn, I have no idea what might be going wrong with the demo... I was told on IRC that it was playable for at least a few other people, maybe it got corrupted on download or decompression. Anyway, don't worry about it too much, just get on with the rest of the episode :-) 
Just Played It 
and I enjoyed it very much, thank you. Even on this archaic p.o.s. computer, it didn't crash, or run at below 1 fps. Definitely epic stuff, very much in the necros style, but where his lean towards the Insomnia aesthetic, this map reminds me of vanilla q3 stylistically. Lots of decorations, pillars, arches, etc were very similar to those in the original q3 maps.

Architecture was really epic, lots of towering spires, good verticality. Some of the less open sections could have done with more detailing; there were some corridors and the occasional room where a wall would be completely plain, and not split up along the horizontal. I couldn't load a skybox to pretty things up (blame my PC again) and I thought the gray sky was a bit bright for the overall light level.

The additional models and QC worked rather well... the large flame model was very swish; it filled part of the massive gap in the quake mapmodels department. I didn't think the Q2 exploboxes were really neccessary, nice though they are, but maybe they'll fit in better in the next maps in the series.

The monsters were a slightly mixed bag i felt. The flak ogre I felt quite neutral to, didn't really get too excited by it. Better than a nail grunt or something though, might be worth using in the right situation. The shuffler was o.k.... might have been better on a higher-spec computer. I would have preferred it if it didnt have a range attack, but instead had another melee one. Looked quite good though.

I really liked the Q2 dude though... that was an amazing conversion to Q1. Really fills a hole in the quake bestiary. The skin conversion in particular is flawless. I liked fighting him too; felt like a real quake 1 monster that had been playtested and refined. Who converted this guy? If it was you Kinn, congrats. The only minor negatives were: the sprite he fired, which looked a little OTT. Also his skin, though it was good, is still a Q2 skin, and doesn't fit in seamlessly with the Q1 ambience. I might try to give him a more Q1 skin at some point.

Great map, more please! 
Thanks Starbuck 
Nice to know it worked on a low-spec system :)

You raised some good points. I should possibly have gone with a more gothic-ish model for the explobox (or removed it entirely), but in the end I just didn't get around to changing it (and I can't stand those standard quake fullbright .bsp boxes).

With the shuffler, you're right in saying that it works better on a higher spec computer, as his running animation requires a framerate of 20 fps or higher.

For the monsters, I did all the model conversions and QC myself. The new sprites were made from scratch in Photoshop, apart from the rocket/grenade explosion which came from an unknown source.

The Q2 dude does seem to have gone down well. You may be interested to know that I did a similar conversion with the Q2 gladiator, although he didn't really fit the style of this map, so I left him out.

Again thanks for playing, I'm glad you liked it :) 
Some nice architecture and QC additives, but bunching ammo/monsters I didn't like. Good job on the immense/environment feeling. 
This Is Magnificent 
Utterly loved the map. Even to the point of making a shabby speedrun of it =)

So here's the easy run in eight and a half minute. I expect this to be severely beaten. Who's up for the challenge? Morfans? =)

I can't praise the map any more than has already been done. It's a masterpiece, and a top five favorite map for me. GG! 
I get a 404 on that link. 
Should Work Now 
Thanks Kay, 
Although I can't seem to run the demo - I have exactly the problem as with mwh's demo posted earlier - it crashes to the console a few seconds in. What engine did you record it in?

And of course, many, many thanks for your excellent praise of the map :) 
I Used Joequake-gl 
to record this run. I think it's basically glquake with zquake graphics and stuff. I like it because of the timer (try it and you'll see). Grab your copy on the link below =) 
Installed Joequake 
and played the demo. Excellent work Kay, and immensely entertaining :) 
Wierd-arse Entities 
Wierder and wierder. The Joequake recorded demo from mwh (above) crashes regular quake as soon as the flak ogre fires his nail burst. Also wierd, but irrelevant (for now).

In regular JoeQuake the demo plays fine and for me all the entities look correct! That is to say when mwh is cirling around an entity saying "wierd, huh?" it looks absolutely fine for me.

I usually use heapsize 64000 but even taking that down to 32000 it displayed fine.

I couldn't test it in joequake-gl as anything gl doesn't work on this PC.

If anyone manages to record odd entities in winquake or glquake I'd appreciate seeing a demo and a list of hardware and quake parameters if possible.

So, no real answers but one thing I have established is that the entities are not changing themselves (either model, model number or entity number), it's just the way that they're being displayed on some systems. But then that's kinda what we all guessed from the start... :-) 
Interesting Stuff Morfans 
I got the mwh demo working once I installed joequake, and this time I saw all the model errors as described.

I too used the software joequake.exe, and I haven't tried joequake-gl, but I assumed it would show the same.

Is it safe to say that this is most likely a joequake-only problem?

I have checked my spawner qc top-to-bottom and I can't think what could be causing it in the qc.

The only other quake mod that I know of that spawns monsters mid-game is that one which spawns monsters continously in deathmatch levels. Can anyone remember what that was called because I'd love to see if I can reproduce the same oddities in other maps/mods? 
Is that what you are thinking of? 
Yes, That's It 
I will check it out this evening :) 
Sidd Said... his post above he's had the same problem in regular glquake. Ho-hum. 
60:47 *grin*

4/5 my secret finding skillz 0wn j00


First attempt, normal GLQuake, no bugs.

Kinn I have a 2.8meg Dzipped demo if you're really fucking bored and have an hour to spare =).

What can one say? Awesome map and you know it. Anything that relates to custom engines, I don't give a shit about it, it worked fine in GLQuake. Most noticable aspects for me:

Map design was great. Good style & use of gothic. You should know that though, it's bloody obvious. End area was spectacular. I like the real gothic touches too.

New sounds completely unneccessary. Ambient sounds were fine.

Custom effects well used. E.g. exploding walls and sprites.

New monsters... Flak Ogres are fine. Enforcers are a pain in the arse due to their continuous attack. Don't like the bolts either and should be reskinned. Minotaur was okay....not quakey enough and the anim was a bit strange. Didn't like their bolts either.

Gameplay....I liked the abundance of ammo especially rockets....the ending was hilarious....sure not desperately hard but plain fun! Armour balance was a little funny, I needed a bit more near the grinder room and a bit less elsewhere. It would have been cool to give the player the *choice* of a quad/pent at the end.

Any criticisms are in the context of it being a generally excellent map of course. 
Thanks Shambler 
Great comments :)

A few people have mentioned the armour imbalance, so I'll definitely look at that when I re-release it in its full episodic context.

Monsters have been a bit of a love 'em or leave 'em thing overall. Did you spot the White Shuffler's little trick? I can see from your monster count that he pulled it off once ;)

Of course I would love to see your demo; if you could give me a download link that would be great :) 
If someone can host0r it for me, all my site access is down... 
You can email it to me if you like :) 
Can You Handle It, Big Boy? 
Well....can you take all that girth??

P.S. Dunno what the White Shuffler's trick is, it didn't seem to spawn anything?? Does it eat other monsters to regain health? 
Yeah, I'm Man Enough... 
I've sent 6.5 meg attachments before, so I can probably receive big 'uns as well.

As for ol' Shuffles, stick godmode on and just run around without killing him; sooner or later he'll start unleashing his fiendish power. Only the white one does this though. 
...It's TOO BIG to fit.

Yahoo don't like it. Actually I'll try blueyonder... 
Got your demo - just finished watching it.

Good job with those secrets - you made me crack up when you got the pent and jumped into the lava :)

You missed a quad secret near the end, but it looks like you didn't need it.

Also interesting to see how you tackled the first big fight in the final arena by provoking a lot of infighting.

Good demo - I certainly enjoyed watching it :) 
Cheers Kinn 
I enjoyed playing it, apart from the Q2 thingies. I was playing carefully to try to do it first go....thus a lot of fannying around =).

When I ran back from the lava, I held down TAB to check the time to the pent and found I had about 23 seconds....there was a little moment of panic when I'm in the lava with no tunnel to swim down and 0.05 seconds of 666 left :P.

How do you get the quad secret at the end, BTW?? I know where it is but not whether you're supposed to RJ or jump off the descending switch (hard?)??

Yer, infighting, well you've got such a big area to run around in, it had to be done. A fun set-up for an arena that, reminds me a bit of CZG07c, the space definitely makes it more pleasant. 
Re: Quad Secret 
An RJ was the idea, but jumping off the switch sounds interesting...hmmm...I never though of that. 
There is a problem with that Kinn, that if anyone has tried an explosives jump previously in the map, they will have noticed the reduced effect and will come to the reasonable conclusion that you intend that RJing is NOT to play any role....thus it will seem unlikely to be required for a secret.

Just a thought... 
Good Point Shambler... 
True, I did shake some of the gameplay dynamics around a bit including the reduced damage momentum.

My personal views on rocket jumping are that they shouldn't really play a part in single player maps, unless it's to find a secret area. I guess reducing damage momentum was just my (slightly misguided) way of discouraging it without fully disabling it. 
5 Out Or 5 
...secrets that is. I found 3 on my first play through and went back to find the other two. I did this with no cheats or hints so that makes me a better person. I didn't even want to see the hints in the text file.

This is an awesome map and would remain so if it had been your 10th map released. It was fun to play through on hard - I got 100% kills and I spent almost 80min according to the end clock. I finished in about 3 sessions so this map felt like an adventure and was long lasting.

I ran it on FitzQuake and other then having to type in my sky at each game loading, I found no serious problems. My only petty complaint is that the roller crushers should have minced that fiend I tricked into jumping in. So disappointing not to see gibs.

This is the sort of map that would be fun to play again. The first time is for exploration and discovery - the following plays are for pure carnage and to see how many infights you can start.

Great work Kinn!! 
Thanks Scragbait. 
It always makes me happy to hear people getting a good chunk of playing time out of this :)

Good job with the secrets. I've been watching some of the demos people have sent me and have been pleasantly surprised at the way they take their time searching for them.

Hehe - I'll have to try that with the fiend - odd that it didn't gib him though - the knight gibs ok, and I certainly gib when I jump in there :)

Again, thanks for your wonderful comments :) 
on skill 1, finished in 31:27, probably more like an hour with all the quicksaves. :P In general I don't like "big" maps that try to squeeze the entire game into one .bsp but since it was fairly easy to figure out what to do next in this one, that's alright. :)

architecture - frigging incredible

monsters - very well done in all respects (sprite, model, QC, etc.) except the new skins, which all looked washed out against the rest of the quake colors in winquake.

gameplay - fine except the part just after the lava bridge where I had to fight off almost everything with 2 health and an axe. and at the end I just grabbed the pentagram and walked through the "main gate" without killing anything but that's no big deal. :)

sounds - okay 
Cheers Fern 
Hehe, if you don't like "big" maps, you're going to hate my next one ;) 
great map.
what i don't like is that you used q3 textures. makes it look like a wannabe q3 map :( maybe it's just me... 
Thanks Gibbie. 
I like Q3 textures. They're still medieval-ish, but a little more otherworldly than the standard Quake medieval textures. There's also a splash more colour to them as well (although I "browned-up" the Q3 textures in this map slightly to give a better Q1 palette conversion). 
Any1 Know Any Zquake Hacks / Cheats? 
if u know any zquake hacks email them 2 plz plz plz :) 
That's A New One. 
fyi underworldfan (and i doubt you have any control over this), but i tried to check out your review and i get this:

gg pq 
What's ZQuake? 
I have heard of ZDoom but that's a new one for me.

Well dude, while I'm here if it is anything like Quake,

tilde key pulls down the Dos looking screen (a C-O-N-S-O-L-E)
plug in God for Godmode
plug in Impulse 9 for all the goodies. 
What's ZQuake? 
I have heard of ZDoom but that's a new one for me.

Well dude, while I'm here if it is anything like Quake,

tilde key pulls down the Dos looking screen (a C-O-N-S-O-L-E)
plug in God for Godmode
plug in Impulse 9 for all the goodies. 
oh, and this '~' is the tilde key.

It gets its name from German Pinball. 
it's russian qw port
fuhquake is based on it 
Didn't Expect 
this thread to be bumped, but I might as well say I just noticed a rather nice mention on Fat Controller's site, which was cool - thanks Fatty :) 
Download Is Broken 
Thanks =) 
When I checked there the last time, it was WIP ;)
How about changing the links here either? A friend of mine searched for the map. 
Horde Of The Underworld 
After playing the second map first, I thought I would move on to the first map second and wow what an adventure in the Underworld! :)

The architecture feels grand as always and the choice of texture are gorgeous and consistent. The map even uses some of my techno texture set, which made me smile knowing they were used in such a classic of Q1SP mapping. It was strange at first to see the Q3 textures in the Q1 engine because it felt so D�j� vu after playing with Q3 for such a long time. The textures work really well across large surfaces and make the architecture stand out bcause they are such a bright colour palette.

The combat is still hard and intense and there is one AI that really does not fit well, the Q2 machine gunner. There was one cool moment thou when I killed a q2 machine gunner and it kept firing the blue plasma at me while it was headless. The rest of the AI was perfectly suited and the final boss type moved really damn fast and often caught me off guard. It was interesting to have the horde style combat this time broken into two areas because it helped the overall pacing better.

I still prefer the second map more because it has proper skill levels. I am not a fan of the everything approach but weaker AI health bars. I have played the map a couple of times now and each time it feels better, especially the horde moments which are just fantastic. The setup so perfectly captures the doom feeling of massive amounts of AI just running around but this time there are infighting as well. I saw so many cool moments of fiend/shambler and hknight/fiend slugging it out while the rest of the horde was going crazy.

My only nitpick is the spinning death trap with the water tunnel because it was just random luck to get it right. Sometimes I had the water bounce bug and other times I just came out of the water and instant death, total luck. The other 4 secrets were awesome and I especially like the sharpshooter one for the pentagram of protection.

I think that Kinn is a Q1SP mapping god and as much as these two maps inspire me to want to make something for Q1SP they also convince me that it is unlikely I would be able to create anything that would be better. 
U can bet sock!

This map is like the main temple of all levels of Quake ever made, hard to build such a level.

What impress me more in this map is the rocks, they are so well made that make me cry! 
You make anything, keep playing and posting - this is an... educational process. I don't have so much time to play anymore, but reading each post plays me back from when I did.

In any case, I look forward to a map from you, especially since you still call monsters ai's. That's the kind of fresh eyes I had about the game more than ten years ago, when I found the best game I'd ever played.

The more FPS games that I play, the more I think back to this one. That invented them.

Cue hairsplitting arguments about Wolf and Doom. 
It took me 10 years but I finally found how to get the secret pentagram by the zombies/rl!

Easy skill, 24:24, 303/303, 5/5. 
Oh Man 
imagine a cross between Marcher and Zendar, that would be utterly insane. 
With Due Respect To Kinn And His Dungarees 
Hehe, True Dat 
To be honest I'm not really gonna defend any design decisions I made in a map a decade ago.

My current map is about as linear as a Scouser's walk home after a Friday night on the lash, so there's an improvement there at least. 
I Don't Agree With OTP's Assessment 
yes choice of routes is a good thing, but the real problem that chart assesses is lack of interconnectivity. Marcher (or Breakfast at Twilight or, ahem, Masque) is 100% linear, but it's interconnective. The problem with lack of interconnectivity is that you have no sense of progress at all; interconnectivity within large vertical outdoor areas provides that. I think OTP misinterpreted that chart significantly.

Aka, I'll defend design decisions you made a decade ago, Kinn! (of course, choice of routes ala Zendar, e1m2, e2m2, or my old soe1m4 Autumn Citadel, etc, can be great too). 
It Was A Joke You Massive Meathead 
It took me 10 years but I finally found how to get the secret pentagram by the zombies/rl!

Whoops, missed your post Mandel :} Glad to hear people are still playing this thing. Out of interest did you use the secret hints in the readme?

I'll defend design decisions you made a decade ago, Kinn!

Lol cheers, but it's probably best not to :} 
thanks for the respective contributions ;) 
You Mean The Super Easy Secret 
Where you shoot the button in the roof in the room just next to it? 
"Sharp shooting short shrifts the Shuffler"

That's The One 
yeah no I never did read the readme. 
There Was A Readme? 
There's Always A Readme 
Ur Mom's A Readme 
...with no word wrap 
Help I'm Stuck In Bastion ! 
I'm in the zone with the big spin-grinder, monster count is circa 130/300, I've already pushed a rectangular stone(with runic effigy) and got that message "still one to go", I can see this other one stone protected by bars above a big room of lava.. but there's no way to reach it ! 
The Single Grinder? 
(There's another grinder room later with two grinding wheels.)

From the first grinder, go up the taller set of stairs, turn right, head left up another set of stairs. You're at a T hallway, to the right are some locked bars which lead to the second grinder room, the button to unlock them is up the stairs to the left.

In the second grinder room, take the exit that has stairs going down to a gate with a red rune on it (push to open). You'll find a silver key eventually, the SK opens the door to the second runic button. 
Wow Kinn This Sounds A Bit Unintuitive. 
My undetectable instagib traps will ensure the player stays on the critical path by enforcing a tough-but-fair trial-and-error gameplay stratagem. 
"tough but fair" 
Please Don't Make Fun Of Dark Souls I Love It Dearly 
Let Me Tell You About Dark Souls... 
*Sharpens Ears* *Gets Out Pen And Paper* 
*Gets the popcorn* 
Ok Here Goes... 
j/k I haven't actually played Souls properly, even though I have bought all the games.

Unfortunately, I haven't been touched by the 'tism enough to be able to persevere with the gameplay to the extent that they deserve. :( 
Thank.. But 
Me was thinking to run through the big room of lava and jump onto the door ..impossible indeed :)

I'll try your tip ericw, anyway great map Bastion !
On my PentiumII400-Voodoo3 + glquake unofficial 1.13 is smooth as silk :)

By the way how can I lower down brightness in glquake 1.13 ?? 
First runs on hard:

8th attempt from stracth: skill2, 304/306, 0/5 
I'll check those out when I get a spare mo, cheers! 
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