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New Q1SP: Ariadat Released
My first full scale release. Using textures derived mostly from e1m2-4 for that familiar swampy, dank green limestone style with some trimmings pulled from Amagon, IKBlue and KillJoy's IKWhite.

Emphasis is on up close and personal two fisted pump loaded action in tight, compact areas.

Slightly out of date screenshots can be found at http://pipeline.fov120.com/bigshot.php4?mapid=194&game=0&mode=compact&status=inprogress&page=1

and the zipfile can be downloaded from:

http://www.geocities.com/AlanR643/
http://scampie.spawnpoint.org/maps/other/ariadat.zip

I enjoy watching demos if you would like to send me one, at alanr643@msn.com
Comments much appreciated as well.
This Page Is Not Available. 
Is what I get!
Any other DL site? 
Me Too. 
i get the same 404 message 
... 
go here first:
http://www.geocities.com/AlanR643/

then click on the link. geocities doesn't allow remote linking, that's all. 
Thanks Necros! 
That did it. 
Hmm 
cant say I really liked it, sorry headthump.

The brushwork was averagey and the lighting and texturing didnt do much too enhance it IMHO. Some really odd texturing choices in general.

Gameplay wise it's a mixed bag. It's tough but not frustrating. I just didnt enjoy the combat though, there was no fun about it.

Anyway, it shows promise and I hope to see your next map despite this negative criticism. 
Yes 
skill 3
26:23
0/1
103/103

Demo on it's way. The time is pretty slow since the combat was intense from the start and that left very little health between the start room and the silver key.

Very narrow and cramped in places, a little confusing at times. Had a definite 1998-1999 map feel to it with it's narrow slopes in rooms and over water and fairly flat but "busy" architecture.

In general, quite fun if a little too involved. I enjoyed playing through. The whole thing was very intense and a bit hard to follow at times. A great effort for a first map and I hope you make more.

Oh, and WTF is that trigger_push in the water all about??

Oh, and the wall just disappearing in front of the GK door was horrible.

Oh, and I couldn't find the secret. Found the quad and the SNG which I thought could both have been secrets but not the real secret, whatever that was. :-) 
...geocities Is Banned... 
so any alterative DL?
Thanks! 
HeadThump 
I only got half the zip, then the page had its "data transfer limit" exceeded. It'll probably work again later, but maybe a 2nd DL url would be a good idea? 
Well ... 
I must say that this map could have needed some (more?) beta testing. A lot of textures needed alligment. The goldkey door was to narrow to the texture. Some wather brushes stoped before they reached the sourrunding walls. Just before the GK-door you are to push two buttons, by accident I pushed the first two times and the sequence was complete (the buttons shouldn't reset!) etc.

Anyway it's a first map and as so not that bad.
It had it's moments!

I played on hard (as I always does) and the start was well "HARD". Meeting 3 knights, 1 ogre, 2 Hknights and 1 fiend with the SG at spawn point is more of a nightmare 8-).
Well I survived (after three restarts, so no demo) and are looking forward to your next map. 
HeadThump Again 
please check your email for some info regarding the map. 
So Farm Uhm, So Mixed Bag 
I do thank all of you for giving it a whirl however you may feel about the level overall.

AquiRe I haven't got the message but MSN has informed me that there is a delay in the service that will be cleared up shortly.

Levelworm, if it is okay to send directly to your address you should recieve the file soon.

'Just before the GK-door you are to push two buttons, by accident I pushed the first two times and the sequence was complete (the buttons shouldn't reset!) etc'

ouch, I just checked it out and you are right. How would you off set it? Pass it to a trigger relay before the counter?

'I played on hard (as I always does) and the start was well "HARD". Meeting 3 knights, 1 ogre, 2 Hknights and 1 fiend with the SG at spawn point is more of a nightmare 8-).'

If you shoot the Ogre on the stairs once and immediately veer left or right, monster infighting should greatly reduce this burden.

In the second encounter set, I normaly only have to deal with a greatly weakened Vore as the knights and hellknights eagerly chop up on each other in the tight underground passage.

'Oh, and the wall just disappearing in front of the GK door was horrible. '

I originaly used the hipnotic progs.dat for this and this area was set to be an exploding wall. When I nixed that idea in mid course, I was at a loss for an idea of what to do to replace that idea.

'Oh, and WTF is that trigger_push in the water all about??'

Part of the physical language of the level. Suppose to show that the capsized boat got caught in the undertow an underground river. Again, Hipnotic would have been more useful here.

And it is definitely retro. The idea was to make the supporting, functional brush design in the stark, original Id episode mode and then detail brush work it along more modern organic appearing lines for the purpose of creating contrast. If this one doesnt quite suceed I'm working hard so the next level will.

I worked on the level until I got sick of seeing it in the editor. Well, some time well past that point, but after I finish the current level I'll revisit this level to address the problems raised. 
Info 
'Just before the GK-door you are to push two buttons, by accident I pushed the first two times and the sequence was complete (the buttons shouldn't reset!) etc'

ouch, I just checked it out and you are right. How would you off set it? Pass it to a trigger relay before the counter?


On each button, set "wait" "-1".

Oh, and just as a general rule, try not to assume that the player will try to incite monster in-fighting. I made that mistake with RPGSP1, and consequently the level was too hard. (That wasn't the only reason it was too hard, but it certainly compounded the issue.) 
Basically 
it's about many of the sky brushes not being "real" sky brushes and therefore the sunlight doesn't work as expected. You must apply the sky texture on all sides of each sky brush.

Also, there are two torches with delay 3 (no attenuation) which makes the lighting in that room extremely harsh. I'd suggest changing them to normal lights (delay 0). 
Ah, Of Course! 
'On each button, set "wait" "-1". '

I was assuming I should make them still operable after usage but that is not needed art all.

AquiRe, that was a roundabout but extreme way of making the SilverKey platform noticeable as the goal. Using a small spotlight on the GoldKey area and reducing the room 'glare' makes much more sense! 
Spotlight On The GoldKey Area 
SilverKey area I mean. Had that dang 'Silver and Gold' song from Rudolf stuck in my head. 
I Get 
"This page is not available" or something and no link shows up for the download. :( 
I'm Activating 
the Alanr643@yahoo e-mail account so the correspondannce isnt reliant on MSN and Metlslime's generous tolerence. I'll be back to check up after baseball practice this afternoon, so, Zwiffle, if you have any further problems getting a hold of it, I'll send the level directly. I checked it out and from the vantage point of my server it seeems to be running fine. 
Mirrored: 
Thanks 
Oh thanks Scampie :D 
Demo Sent 
Easy skill

24:31
0/1
82/89

Got scared by some of the difficulty comments, so I did a first run on easy (I generally s4wk anyway).

Oh well, at least you can have a good laugh seeing me flailing around like a tard in front of the spawns ;)

Overall I thought the map was a bit of a mixed bag. There are some great designs here and there, but the level of detail in the brushwork is very inconsistant - varying from uber-detailed to very large flat walls.

I didn't think the terrain bit at the beginning was really necessary - espec. as the theme wasn't continued later in the map.

The buttons were rather odd I'm afraid to say - they seemed mostly to be one-shot triggers, but they didn't stay down which was confusing.

Some of the steps seemed a little too high as well - best to stick with either 16 or 8 high.

Gameplay was enjoyable on easy (perhaps more suited to normal?) - I can't comment on the higher skill levels, as I haven't played them yet. Some monsters got stuck now and then - the gold key door was too narrow, making the end battle too easy.

Layout was generally fairly good - the only bit that threw me was the puzzle-ish thing near the beginning where you had to shoot the demonic face (actually in hindsight it was fairly obvious, but I guess I just had one of those "doh" moments)

Skimming back over my comments it seems as if I'm focusing on the negative - but I found it a very enjoyable map overall. 
Similarly 
Some interesting combat situations throughout, though their quality varied immensely. I liked the spawn combat in the narrow areas, and also the death knights + ogre underwater (looked stupid but a good challenge). The beginning was too hard (played on hard) and the end was far too easy - hung back and pasted the vores with the RL. The shambler was also no challenge whatsoever.

Generally sub-iD build quality. Some nice ideas in the designs, but messy brushwork and too much clutter detracted from the architectural set-pieces - you need to plan the layout of your maps better in order to accentuate the bits of architecture you've spent the most time on. I found the small underwater passages unnecessarily difficult to traverse.

Texturing was flat and taken from too narrow a palette, and lighting was adequate at best and nonsensical or shockingly bad at its worst (like the fullbright room after the spiky door). The clipped-off corners of the floors really needed to be lined and textured differently from the rest of the floor and walls.

It was interesting to play, and good for a first effort, but as someone said above, this needed more work to make it into a gem of 2004. 
 
I'm not gonna say this map doesn't suck, but I'm won't go into what was so bad about it either. Instead, I complement you on the layout of the level. Winding back on itself and visiting areas again was what made this interesting to me. I thought the layout of the level and the path was very good, well mapped out. I don't know if the GL in the water was a secret or not, it seemed like it should have been. I only found the Quad Damage by accident, but it was very useful in the room that followed. Good effort, great layout, just work on architecture and texturing a little more. 
Hm... 
well, it wasn't too bad. i couldn't complete the map because it kepts crashing fq just as i approached a wooden door after getting the sk and opening a fancy looking gate.

anyway, what the fuck is with everyone and scaling down textures? it looks like ass, ffs!
the map's brushwork is fine and gameplay is good. it's the fucking textures, that's all!

i liked it alot, until it crashed, to be honest. the cramped areas reminded me a lot of doom, and that's good. :) it made fighting the monsters much more difficult, and there were some genuinly cool surprises. also, the fight with the busted boat/mh with the vore in the water and the 3 hknights + ogre on top was cool.

but please, never downscale textures again, *please*. 
Blatch. 
but please, never downscale textures again, *please*.

Yeah, upscale your designs instead so it looks equally ass... 
My Thoughts 
about the map. It worked fairly well but had quite a bit of problems, the main being player movement difficulties. In all too many places the player couldn't move properly, stairs had to be jumped etc. Clip brushes could've helped here.

The next issue was lighting; the first big open area is almost fullbright and several others were either too dark or too bright, sometimes both in the same area. Part of this I assume is caused by the disabled sky brushes I mentioned before.

As others have noted, the texture combinations/alignments were odd and made an inconsistent impression. Several water brushes were chopped off and thus looked weird.

Gameflow was mostly OK, except from a confusing part in the zombie sewer with the opening hole at the bottom. Challenge and monster/weapon/ammo balance (on Normal) was also mainly OK although a bit uneven at times.

I'd suggest not to expose monsters that can't reach you yet (e.g. the fiend through the gate). Also, the end combat was overly easy since you could retreat and blast shambler & co from afar (the shambler couldn't get through the door).

I liked the first open yard and the boat area, the latter with a bit different textures and atmosphere.

Not bad for a first map. If the player movements could be improved, I think it would be much more enjoyable. Let me know if you need help with the lighting issues. 
Re: Crash 
i couldn't complete the map because it kepts crashing fq just as i approached a wooden door after getting the sk and opening a fancy looking gate.

Hey the same thing happend to me at the same spot.
I first loaded the map in tomazq 146 and got the same crash. Then I tried Fq 70 and 75, then Tyrq with same result. Winq wouldn't load on my system so in the end I played the map in MHq, with no problems. Weird! 
Does It Crash 
for you also in my engine? Is it easily reproducable? I haven't had any crashes, but I'm using a modified FQ 0.75 engine. 
Yup. 
it just freezes for a second then pops up the generic "glquakebjp.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close...etc..." error box. 
Well 
I liked the gameplay, some fun combats
but shambler, fiend and vores that were not able to pass thru th GK door were bad.
Some designes also were nice.

But texturing in quite annoying for me. 
Thanks Scampie, 
for adding the extra download link. Much appreciated.

I found the source of the error that is causing those crashes. In the 52 builds I made, I encountered only one crash testing with FitzQuake 75, and GLQuake. It occurred at a trigger_once that pointed to a trigger_relay that killtargets a message. This crash never happened again in the several builds since.

For whatever reason, the error gated door crash didn't show up in test. At the point of the crash there is a trigger_once pointing to the doors. I mistakenly put a different sound on each side for the pair, and that is the most likely culprit.

I'm going to be away tonight, but with that crash, I'm convinced I should go ahead and spend a good part of tommorow rebuilding the level.

After the bugs, I want to redux the skill settings. Normal I believe should = Current Easy + Lake Bottom Vore + Bridge Crawling Vore, Easy should be Current Easy - 3 HellKnights + 3 Ogres + 1 spawn + 1 Scag, and Hard should be the same + a twist at the end.

Next are the textures. I will obviously have to keep the door, demon face and trigger textures as they are scaled to fit the demands of the brush work, but I can rescale the bricks (will have to switch to 1.4 GTKRadiant to do it as it is properly set to Quake 1 scale) and quarry stones back to their original heights and perhaps dampen the eye hurtage it may have caused. 
Hmm. 
For some strange reason both Fq 0.75 and Tomazq 146 don't crash now when I tried to reproduce it. Wonder what has changed since I played it the first time(s) 8-/ 
If Anyone Can 
give me simple instructions how to reproduce the crash, I'd appreciate it. I haven't been able to do it myself so far with the info at hand. 
I Forgot To Mention 
HeadThump, you're evil spawn lover=) 
The Crash 
When you walked up the ramp to the door that leads into the start room and the silverkey door. Just when you walked into the "ally" before the door the engine froze and then it gave the error message necros said!
But as said earlier I can't reproduce it. 
Bleh. 
Skill 2
Second attempt - first attempt died on the first Fiend huh.
15:00
0/1
102/112

Demo available. Comments as for other people's no doubt. The interconnectivity was nice and the cavern with the boat was a good idea. There seemed to be several places that should have been proper outdoor rock sections. There are some good ideas lurking but consistent build quality etc etc are lacking. Gameplay was a bit odd in places and hampered by the scenery.

Do better next time eh. 
Thanks Hrimfaxi 
I've tried exactly that numerous times in FQ 0.75 or my own latest GLQuake 1.11 and no crash.

If either you or necros are running NT/2K/XP, maybe you have a "post mortem" dump from Dr. Watson regarding the crash?

Search for a drwtsn32.log text file, copy the last GLQuake part of it (the file may be very big), usually a couple of hundred lines, zip it up and send it to me, please. 
Aguire 
well, i'm in a hurry, so i just cnped the last few entries in the logfile.

http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/crashes.zip

it will obviously be the last few entries, because i tried twice with fq, then once with glq, then with your glquake. 
Thanks Necros 
but the last entry was from Feb 29th when hl.exe crashed. Either you didn't cnp the last part or Dr.Watson has been disabled since then. 
AguirRe 
You got mail! 
Lol. 
i didn't see the dates. sorry about the non-helpfulness :P 
Hmmm 
I tried to play it first on hard skill and pretty much died within the first area or two a few times, before I gave up (didn't get past the first badly placed Vore).

The sub-par visuals were not enough to entice me to play again immediately. I will try again on easy or normal when I have a bit more time and patience.

If you want a few tips on how to not annoy the player (just based on the first room or 2 of your map... just my opinion though!)

- Don't place monsters where they can see you immediately after you spawn. It's fucked.

- Don't place Vores in areas where there is no cover, eg the first Vore in the map (skill 2). If you drop down the hole there's no way to avoid the Vore balls... and I couldn't pick him off from outside as I didn't have enough ammo.

- Don't force the player to rely on 'monster infighting' (as you have suggested above). That's a bullshit excuse for a lack of balancing and playtesting. 
.. 
- Don't place Vores in areas where there is no cover, eg the first Vore in the map (skill 2). If you drop down the hole there's no way to avoid the Vore balls... and I couldn't pick him off from outside as I didn't have enough ammo.

i think the main problem with that area is that it's difficult to move along the ledge because it's so cramped, and jumping back onto the bridge-like brush is difficult because it's got angled corners.

as it turns out, i did have enough ammo to get rid of the vore with the SG, but it was still difficult and long, because it involved a lot of running back across the bridge for cover. 
Necros 
I've got a Watson dump from Hrimfaxi that seems appropriate and I'll check it out asap. Thanks anyway for both your help. 
I Think I've Found The 
crash spot in FQ 0.75, but I don't know why it crashes there. It's in function SV_TouchLinks that seems to deal with "linked edicts", I assume entities connected by common target/targetname/killtarget values. HeadThump is probably right in his assumption.

But I still haven't been able to reproduce the crash yet. Well, it's easy to put in a controlled abort instead of the ugly crash, so I might settle for that. 
That Particular 
brush entity has both a killtarget and a target value. I wonder if it may be a result of different versions of Progs.dat causing the crashes and not necessarily the Engine Builds. 
hm...
as i recall, you are not allowed to have a trigger target one ent and killtarget another... but that doesn't explain why i crashes on systems and not others... 
My Discription Earlier Was Off 
the trigger_once is only set to target and not killtarget. It targets the doors to open them and also a trigger_relay which killtargets a second trigger_once that contains a message.

Up 20 odd hours due to a long drive last night.

Mr Fribbles, you have some excellent advice for me to mull over, but this one I take exception to:

'- Don't force the player to rely on 'monster infighting' (as you have suggested above). That's a bullshit excuse for a lack of balancing and playtesting.'

Monster infighting is purposively built in to Id games for the mappers to exploit. Some excellent mappers have used it well; Mexx9 in the 'Praying Monster' room, and the entire Hell Revealed MegaWad for Doom 2 uses it.

That it is rarely used in modern maps is more customary than a reflection of its usefullness. As I have said, this map is an intentional rollback to early Quake mapping, but I'll keep your observations in mind as I try to refine the style in the next map.

'There seemed to be several places that should have been proper outdoor rock sections.'

Good eye for detail there, Shambler. You probably mean the HellSpawn Walkthrough area, and some parts of the open court near the start. Those were rock area designs at first, but I had so many brushes in there to make the rock surface look convincing it took a toll on the speed. Okay on my system, but a map this retro should be able to make at least a PII user happy. I stripped it out and went for the simpler approach. 
Isn't There A Similar Crash In E2m2? 
I haven't tried it, but I remember reading about a crash you can cause in e2m2 (only on easy skill for some reason) that's something to do with the two buttons at the drawbridge conflicting with the trigger_once just inside the castle. 
Btw 
HeadThump, did you receive my demo ok? 
I'm Sorry. 
I meant to send you a note yesterday. The .dz format you used, I don't have an decompressor that handles it. I use 7-Zip which is pretty versital but that isn't one of its supported formats. 
Skill Level Dependant, Eh? 
Maybe I should try to reproduce the crash in Hard mode instead ... 
HeadThump 
you can download dzip here:

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/dzip/download.html

Basically, it's a zip tool specially designed for Quake demos, and compression ratios are typically in the region of 95% 
Thanks, I Heard It Mentioned Before 
but I didn't realize it was THAT useful. 
Just Finished Watching 
Thanks Kinn for recording that for me. It was very enjoyable. Watching you duck back in the middle of firefighting with the Ogre because a Spawn was coming directly for your head made it all worth while. Good reflexes.

That first button seems to give people some trouble. I think I should move it to the floor. Also, I moved the fiend out of harms way, he is overly exposed there though the gates make it difficult to shoot him.

All three zombie areas are designed for blasting them from safe and liesurely vantage points so you can allocate grenade resources more effectively. Damn Zombies! 
Cheers HeadThump 
I took a fair bit of time because I was fannying around looking at brushwork and such.

Thanks for watching the demo, and I look forward to your future maps :) 
Found The Secret 
Skill: Hard
26:04
1/1
103/112 (Don't know how many fish are here.)

What I Liked: Layout, Retro id texture theme, The boat

What I Didn't Like: Movement difficulty, Mob attack right at beginning, Build quality issues already mentioned above

Conclusion: Looking forward to your next map. If you want a beta tester, I'm available. 
Thanks Scragbait, 
I appreciate the offer.

You got the right number when counting the fishes. Also if you play it again at somepoint, look for a a second secret door in the GoldKey area. 
E2m2 
There is indeed a bug in e2m2 whereby if you shoot one button and then bunnyhop across the gap the trigger inside the door will hang quake if you are on easy skill. Complete lockup. Reboot.

I remember investigating this ages and ages ago and if I remember rightly it seems to be because the trigger inside the door tries to wake up the fiend in the water who isn't there on easy skill. But if you shoot the second button it disables the trigger.

(The trigger is there for people who fall in the water at the start and find themselves in the castle with the drawbidge up and the doors closed. It also triggers the doors)

Quite why this should cause a hang is a mystery in itself. I always put it down to e2m2 being one of the first maps made and they didn't recompile if once they had finalised the engine/tools but that is total, unfounded speculation.

If someone with a lot more engine knowledge than me (ie. everyone :-)) gets the urge to have a quick look at this I'd be very interested to hear if they find anything. 
Ummm . . . . 
I hope I'm not the only dummy who just tried what Morfans details too see if it really works - and since it does, locked up and had to reboot . . . ?! 
CETME 
There's nothing stupid about being curious. 
Thanks Kinn And Morfans 
The e2m2 easy skill crash is indeed the same bug as the one found in Ariadat, although much easier to reproduce. I hope I've fixed it now. 
Unmarked Secret 
I think I found a MH in what seemed like a hidden spot close to the marked secret. Is that the secret you mentioned, Headthump? I'll go back and look around the GK door. 
Thanks Shambler, 
Good demo. 
The MH Is A Free Gimme 
because of the difficulty of that particular room. When I played it, even when I Quaded up and ran into the room I got some major damage. So I just took out a knight there and put in the MH. The second secret you can find when you grab the Gold Key. Take a look up. Something very helpful for what is behind the door. 
If You Recompile The Map 
... you should tag that secret. I look around more if I think there may be clues for unfound secrets.

I hope your next map has a meandering layout that is as interesting as this one is. 
I'll Put It Back In, 
but, Poor Gold Key Door Shambler, he has no more chance now than his brother, Silver Key Shambler. He, he. I have a suprise I'm working on in the rebuild. That Shambler is just bait now anyhow. 
Caramba! 
AguirRe: Fantastic. Can you let me know what it was and how you fixed it, please. If it's too long and boring to post here could you mail me (morfans@planetquake.com). Thanks.

Thumpy: Don't get too wrapped up in continually polishing this release. Learn from all the helpful comments above and move on. The world is waiting for your next map!! ;-) 
Thanks Morfans! 
I'll AquiRe is doing most of the really hard work on it at this time to the extent he probably deserves a biline for the remix. I'm going to devote tonight after work to fixing a few things and putting it together with what AquiRe has done, and then I'll get back to mapping.

I have a layout planned for this weekend's SpeedMap. If I get the time Friday night I'll do it. 
:( 
i didn't finish the map, cuz scaled down textures made me crazy in the second hall there so as i got killed, i didn't press 'load' and exited....
i really cannot stand scaled down texes and wrong scales of architecture and that poor lighting, sorry :( 
No Problem, Vondur 
I'm sorry that you didn't like it. The idea was to put as much differing content in as compact space as I could. Hence the scaling. It's apparent that this is what put off most players who dind't like the map.

The set-up for GtkRadiant I'm using now is properly scaled to Quake. So no more scaled down texturing and archetectual content is the future. 
Good 
good
keep em coming with better quality :) 
Update 
With aguirRe's help, i've fixed the e2m2 crash in fitzquake. With the fix, you see a small warning message but can keep on playing. 
Yay! 
:) 
... 
Thanks For The Review Guys 
I found it to be a fair review over all. 
Headthump 
i just wanted to add your architecture is quite imaginative in smoe ways, but i think you could have used lots more variation in texturing. but i still think its a good first map. 
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