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Thought 2 - The Increasing Purposelessness Of Mapping.
Perhaps not of that much relevance to this particular forum but still perhaps of interest. Probably applies more to SP than DM (think on that?)

Is custom mapping becoming increasingly pointless as games progress? Why - because game mapping is generally getting more spectacular, more impressive, more specifically themed and better executing those themes. In short game mapping and the associated technology could be leaving custom mapping behind. After all what`s the point in creating - or, more importantly, playing - a custom map for a game that`s already full of great maps.

For example, take Quake. Good in-game maps at the time, but it was and still is a piece of piss to make vastly better maps even quite soon after the game`s release (and that`s bearing in mind how new true 3D mapping was in those days). No doubt the game`s open-ended themes helped.

On the other hand, take, say, RTCW. Some bloody great maps with fairly specific styles. It seems to me it would be pretty hard to beat those maps at their own game. Unless one is to create entirely new themes (again, harder than before due to increased quality demands), it would seem quite purposeless to create something that`s unlikely to be better than what`s already there.

This is, I think, an increasing trend with games too. Personally, a lot of older (or cruder, e.g. DKT) games have given me much mapping inspiration (yes, JUST inspiration), while newer games have often have such good maps, I can`t think of anything worth adding that they aren`t already doing.

Thoughts?
Add To That 
the increasing amount of work involved to make a good map (well SP stuff anyway). 
Good Point Nits... 
....you could file that under "increasing technology" too, basically the whole thing is getting harder and what you`re competing with is getting further away.


But there are two counter-points to what I`m suggesting. Free* chocolate if someone gets both.








(* Note: That is free chocolate for Shambler hehe) 
Yeah 
i thought about that too
modern games usually strongly tied to the story
it`s either hard to map cuz of the strong storyline (RTCW) or the game is so complex technically that it kills the desire to map for it. that`s usual for the modern games.
quake was universal for that indeed. freedom creating your own style and relative simplicity creating maps.
and i think that in the future only for few games will be possible to map as from the style freedom as from the technical side pov. i still believe that doom3 will be relatively easy to map for. cuz it`ll support editing from the very beginning, and this game will have some default story as usual (i hope). easy to modify and create your own worlds.
the same goes for unreal2, even having some silly story it`s rather easy to make the map with absolutely no relation to original concept.
as for the other games, well, they use either u2, q3/d3 or lithtech engine, so why bother mapping for them (of course if you want to create some branch of the story or something) if there are original games on that engines which is easier to modify?
so the bottomline of my speech is that mapping (fps) will narrow down to that 3 main engines (d3, u2, lithtech) and initial games based on them. of course there will be some sporadic activity in the other games communities, but i think only half-life 2 will be able to keep vast community and long life. 
<Insert Topic Here> 
Yeah, what Vondur said. Except that I don't think Doom 3 will be easy to map for.

As far as I followed the recent developements, mapping gets more and more like modelling. So, you need to spend more and more time to get the details ironed out, to make it look cool. I'm not saying that this is neccessarily bad, but as it gets more time consuming there's almost no room left for mappers that want to create maps in their spare time. That means we will prolly see less custom made maps in the future imho.

Hmm, just my thoughts on this, you're free to prove me wrong... 
... 
I think this is a rather interesting topic, and one that is certainly very close to my heart, having failed to map on countless new games, having already learnt the editor.

Quake editing to me is an artistic form of expression in a way in which many games since have failed to emulate, partly due to the simplicity of constructing the game world. To me, editing in something like the UT2003 engine is like an artist having to tell his paintbrush where to go by entering coardinates! By this I mean that the complicated process of editing puts a stopper on the flow, and creativity cannot be so easily expressed.

That said, editing for the Doom 3 engine is a very exciting concept, and I look forward to working with it. Bump-map technology of that quality is going to produce incredible possibilities for creating the worlds mappers and modders envisage, although of course it will bring limitations. 
Er... 
After all what`s the point in creating - or, more importantly, playing - a custom map for a game that`s already full of great maps.


I dont really understand your point. Just because Nehahara existed, that means czg shouldnt have made Insomina? 
Oh I See What You Mean Now..... 
sorry, i re-read your post and i see more what you are getting at now. You are talking more about modern games, with greater technology.

i got distracted from the real argument by thinking about Quake 1. That happens quite a lot with me. ;) 
Mmm... Free Chocolate 
After all what is the point in creating - or, more importantly, playing - a custom map for a game that`s already full of great maps

From the creativity point of view, a mapper maps for his or her own pleasure and just wants to create a new world. I do not see that having a game chock-full of great maps detracts from that. As far as playing them is concerned, you have more of a point, but surely people still like to play new maps for their *new favourite game*, even if it shipped with a load of great ones. There is always the striving for the big one; the map that will put all others in the shade; the perfect map that will continue to force mappers to create and gamers to play custom maps.

while newer games have often have such good maps, I cannot think of anything worth adding that they are not already doing

In terms of *features* this may be true, but surely not in terms of gameplay. There is always room for another variant, another tweak to spice up a map.

/me thinks probably no chocolate, but it is certainly an interesting topic 
the sky is falling! the sky is falling! 
Uhmmm... 
Maybe trying to map to pursue make a better map aesthetically is harder in nowadays games ( they are very story oriented, more detail based on static meshes), but most games gameplay can be far more interesting than in the retail game (think of u2, silly room to room maps with any surprises)...

Prolly mapping is becoming more team oriented (texturing/modeling/mapping/scripting)than just a lonely activity. 
Erm... 
( texturing / modeling / mapping/ scripting )than just a lonely activity.

damn short http adresses... 
Hmm 
1) lol wrath, indeed.

2) It will (imo) lead to an increase in map teams, someone doing texture work, someone doing the brushwork, someone doing lighting, someone doing gameplay/layout, etc (with one person doing more than one task if you want). It is just more mini mods than maps... (as I just noticed that Auhsan said) 
Interesting Subject 
Well, I think that even if the game comes with a large list of excellent maps for DM and SP, even those will begin to age after a month or two, and then a few custom maps we haven`t seen over and over again - that add some surprises and spice and a new world to explore - will be eagerly welcomed.

Regarding competition with the included maps... That`s not such a silver lining. You see, the game`s development team has some very expert professional mappers working for them, with a team of coders to back them up in any of their needs. It`ll take people a long time to develop even a fraction of that skill, and by then it may be too late, as the game is aging. Look at how many mappers still fail to align their textures or add detail? As few experts as there are for today`s games, there will be even a smaller select for tomorrow`s.

The other problem is, mapping may not be a 1-man job anymore. With the tremendous level and variety of detail and skills that are required in the new engines, I`m wondering if just one person can do it all... At least when expecting respectable results. Even in quake, often different people do the models and decals and textures and special code while others work with soely architecture. With modding communities being as fickle and undependable as they are, I don`t know how well it`s going to work when you`re depending on someone else to do their job. That usually equals the death of most mods and TCs. The coder or mapper or modeler dropped the ball.
And lots of maps fail on their own. Or you just get tired of it and want to move on. Not much fun when there`s even more people than yourself being disapointed...

Too bad games age like they do. I still like Quake1. And we`ve got a huge, wonderful variety of maps and mods. If only the new engines would band together, develop a standard, combine features, and mop the floor with Doom 3. The have all the parts, they just need to assemble it and make it work... 
Ffs Damn Post Eating Forum 
This is all bollocks.

Retail games almost always have maps that doesnt come near to using the potential the game has to offer and dont look that good most of the time either.

Its true tho that there are lot os games with ver specific themes and stories that make them more limited to map for blah blah blah. 
Timidly Puts Hand Up... 
"...while newer games have often have such good maps, I can`t think of anything worth adding that they aren`t already doing."

Your problem, don`t generalize.

"...basically the whole thing is getting harder and what you`re competing with is getting further away."

The after market level design community has grown with (and sometimes overtaken) the professionals. Don`t disregard the amount of accumulated knowledge/experience available so quickly. The development team notion was picked up by the biz after the amateurs showed what could be done with it. 
Hah Hah, I Get To Use Apostrophe '''''' 
The community will take care of itself. People will specialize as specialization becomes necessary. Is anybody bothered that games don't have much programmer art any more? I doubt it.

Maping in Quake isn't easier because the tools are simplier (I've seen those old pieces of crap and they suck lemons), it's easier because you can hack together just about anything and it will fit the universe. That's true of all 3 iterations. RTCW on the other hand is a very specific universe and not everyone is cut out to build to that style. Mapping in RTCW is harder than in Q3 despite being exactly the same in a mechanical sense.

In short: what wazat said.... 
Replies.... 
Bascule well done, free chocolate for me...

/goes to get some...

...ah fuck they charged me. Oh well. Anyway...

"There is always the striving for the big one; the map that will put all others in the shade; the perfect map that will continue to force mappers to create and gamers to play custom maps."

Maybe this isn`t your main point there but it hints at the first counterpoint: Although game maps are getting better, so are mappers in general, and there are always a few mappers who are just so bloody good they can beat the average new game maps. Sure it might be harder as games get harder to map well - and map individually for - but there should still be enough 1337 mappers around with the talent and vision to pull something off that`s a genuinely impressive addition to even the best-mapped new game.

"In terms of *features* this may be true, but surely not in terms of gameplay. There is always room for another variant, another tweak to spice up a map."

And auhsan got this too. Gameplay. Again, new games are trying to put more interesting gameplay other than just "shoot monster" in BUT I think that mappers can still add quite a lot to most games by focusing on specific aspects of gameplay and blending gameplay+design concepts that weren`t done in the original games. In simple shooters, mappers can introduce tactics, in complex games they can spice it up with more action, in linear games add exploration, in tough games smooth it out with secrets and stealth, etc etc.

Maybe that might see a shift in custom mapping focus from design to gameplay?? 
Other Replies... 
Wazat - "Well, I think that even if the game comes with a large list of excellent maps for DM and SP, even those will begin to age after a month or two,"

Yes, worth raising as I wasn`t considering DM. Despite the bizarre DM4/Q2DM1 phenomenon, I think there should be enough demand for varied DM maps if only because they get played time after time (unlike SP) so even the best in-game DM maps will get old.

Cybear - "Retail games almost always have maps that doesnt come near to using the potential the game has to offer and dont look that good most of the time either. "

Okay mister bear. Could you perhaps give a few examples of some recent games (post Q3A/UT) where there are some obvious superb maps that could have been made for them in addition to the woefully inadquate in-game maps??

distrans - "Your problem, don`t generalize."

Maybe, maybe not. I think I`m quite good at thinking up map ideas and being inspired while playing a game to think of possible creations for it. And to be honest, with a lot of new games, I don`t see many people proving me wrong - are there really many excellent and inspired maps for new games that are worthy in comparison to the in-game maps?? 
Ya... 
Good question, anyone got some examples?

But with respect to post #17:

"In simple shooters, mappers can introduce tactics, in complex games they can spice it up with more action, in linear games add exploration, in tough games smooth it out with secrets and stealth, etc etc."

A very interesting perspective, and may go some way to responding to last point in your topic. 
A Couple Points: 
1. I feel that the games that have had well-defined, narrow settings have had less imaginative custom maps, and the games with more varied, inconsistent settings have had more interesting custom levels. In the quake series, i think that quakes 1 and 3 have provided much more freedom or style than quake 2 did. Games such as half-life, RTCW, deus ex, etc are even better examples of the restrictions of a strong story and theme. Cube demonstrates how a game with few thematic constraints can result in some really crazy stuff.

2. Custom mappers have advantages and disadvantages compared to professional mappers. The pro mappers' advantage is that they are more likely to get the art, model, etc. assets necessary to realize their vision, while custom mappers have to rely on what they can make themselves, or find online. The custom mappers' advantage is that they can spend 6 months or a year on a level if they want, while pro mappers have deadlines. Only custom mappers can go as far down the curve of diminishing returns as they want to. 
My Thoughts. 
God dammit it didnt post and I have to go to work in like .023 seconds. ANYWAY:

I think despite the fact that Doom 3 may be a chore to learn and utilize, it will allow us to realize (completely?) our ideas/dreams that we couldnt reach via older engines as well. This could be motivating and/or demotivating for the current mapper (more towards the latter for me, probably).

Also, while viewing http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/ryanw/HL2/hydra.jpg, I thought: hey thats cool, but what about random unscripted things that fit with the scenario, map, game etc to surprise the player each play through a map? What if that hydra wasnt scripted to save your life, but did? 1337. 
shamb : Maybe that might see a shift in custom mapping focus from design to gameplay??

Im curious as to your defn of design, I mean as opposed to the gameplay elements. 
Gilt 
I assume Shamb is refering to the increasingly detailed 2D and 3D components of map construction - as custom mappers will be less able to create this high-poly/high-res content quickly and independently for any project, they will rely more on the huge chunks of meterial established by the game upon release. Custom mapping would then be more innovative in the gameplay mappers were able to achieve with the established physical components.

I'm just inferring. 
See If I Can Post This Time (try #34) 
Commercial games are, well, commercial. Especially with large, big budget productions, it is essential to stick to stuff that most people will like. There is little room for taking risks, or for catering to any small segment of players, either aesthetically or in gameplay.

Another angle: check out any Sega production or something like Gran Tourismo 3. No, not the game, but all the fancy menus and previews and whatnot. In one sense, this has an impression and is nice. In another sense, who the hell cares. The games themselves, also, tend to emphasize details over making give you a damn. 
Hmmm... 
Shambler said:

Wazat - "Well, I think that even if the game comes with a large list of excellent maps for DM and SP, even those will begin to age after a month or two,"

Yes, worth raising as I wasn`t considering DM. Despite the bizarre DM4/Q2DM1 phenomenon, I think there should be enough demand for varied DM maps if only because they get played time after time (unlike SP) so even the best in-game DM maps will get old.


I suppose SP maps could also be included in this. Single player commonly suffers from the replay factor, ie "I beat it once/twice, and mastered it, what's the point of doing it again?". Unlike deathmatch, single player cannot offer the intuitive variety of a human opponent. Things tend to be scripted and lateral and predictable once you've seen it before.

While dm1-6 in quake are still played often when people feel like it, I don't think the same can be said for quake's single player. Yes, people do occasionally go through it again for the naustalgia or just for kicks, but it pales in comparison to the replay value of a good deathmatch - even against bots.

So, custom single player maps are perhaps just as valuable, maybe even more in demand, as long as there is an audience for them. They devalue a *lot* quicker, and need to be replaced with a new experience more frequently. 
Oh Well 
i"m referring to wazats post (if multiple just go figure which one i mean). he says that it wont be a one man job no more.

he"s got a good point. prolly will be more difficult to start off. but now most of us (you) often use each others textures or do joint maps and stuff so i think all is not lost.

on the subject of the official maps being worse than "aftermarket" stuff, well isnt that so with all things. like getting your new pc and bolting a better fan. developers have limited time and there are maybe 25 employed compared to 6 zillion vondurs, ztn, speedy <add your name here> etc.

now, the problem is when you are a newbie and try to compete with BIG stuff like nehahra or anything from the likes of neil manke or whoever you particularly rate. 
Wazat 
but it pales in comparison to the replay value of a good deathmatch

You should take a visit to the Speed Demos Archive:

http://www.planetquake.com/sda/

i think they may view things slightly differently to you. ;)

In short, in my opinion, neither SP or DM is "inherently" more replayable than the other. It simply depends on which gameplay style (as they are radically different, really), you prefer. 
Yes 
SP lifespan is neccessarily limited. Just like a book or a movie, when you've been through it once you know how it ends. That's never been a restriction on authors or moviemakers of course :P And people do re-read something simply for the pleasure of a classic, like LotR or Dune.
But that does bode well for custom SP because, especially given that custom material is free, it can feed the players' hunger for more of the same experience without the fore-knowledge of how it turns out. Sort of like a TV spinoff series if I may continue the analogy. No? Oh, suit yourself. 
I Think I'll Start Using Some Different Icons 
6 zillion vondurs

that sounds like the title for a map... 
Underworldfan 
Understood. But the fact remains that SP is a different animal than DM. In SP, different rules (such as speedrunning) must be created to enjoy the same map. In deathmatch, those differences are automatic as your opponent changes and adapts to you, and you to him.

Multiplayer is walking variety, while sp requires flavoring after the first bite. 
Blah 
The reason that newer games don't have maps better than the original game is not that the newer games are used to their full potential, but instead it is because the mapping community is so divided. Look; how many maps were released for FAKK2, eh? Or Serious Sam? Or NOLF1/2? JK2? Elite Force? Now compare with Quake/Quake 3/Unreal/HL. See the difference? There are or were perhaps tens of thousands of mappers for those combined games, but perhaps only a few hundred for FAKK2, SS1/2, NOLF1/2, JK2, and Elite Force. With so few mappers, it's no surprise that there was no notable release. All the mappers go for the big games where they can congregate with fellow mappers and where people will play their maps.

The only exception perhaps is Jedi Knight 2 or perhaps Serious Sam 2; you might be able to find some maps here that surpass those in the original game since neither shipped with astounding maps. And considering the pure horror value of most of the Jedi Knight 2 maps, it would not take much for a map to surpass it in both visuals and gameplay.

Also, see metlslime's post. Custom mappers have lots of time and can polish it until it's perfect, which is why we're not seeing custom mapper quality stuff even from companies that hire custom mappers. 
That Rtcw Map Set 
I talked about before shamb, that is a good example of maps (well after the first intro one anyway) that are on par with the game`s more decent maps.

Check out the screenshots to get an idea : http://www.itea.ntnu.no/~torej/wolfpack1.htm 
Lol Kell 
:-P 
Nitin 
bad example... 
Re: Kell 
Let me get this straight:
so what is being said is that in the future mappers will no longer create the art work, but rather in a sense, simply arrange it? 
What Do You Do Nowadays.... 
...with textures and entities? 
Cybear 
I dont think so, apart from level 1, IMHO the rest is actually pretty good even if tef didnt react very well to criticism.

And IMHO not *all* the levels in RTCW were that crash hot anyway, there were some pretty average ones in there too. So compared to them and the above average stuff, I think tefs set holds up. 
Re: Nb 
my point wasn#t to argue it. just noting a similarity. 
Similarity 
noted. 
Err, Yes 
nitin pretty much beat me to it, but I'll say it anyway.

I was not impressed with RtCW as a whole, let alone with the maps. Perhaps the reason people are not inspired to make great maps for it is not because everything good was already done, but instead because there was nothing good to make from it.

Personally, I found RtCW very uninspiring. There wasn't much worth doing with the given textures and themes, and what was worth doing was done in the game. Plus, the monsters were in three distinct categories that would not go well together in a single map, which further limited the gameplay situations that were possible. This was of course all brought up at the time the game was released, but if the game had shipped with decent monsters then I would have been tempted to make a map for it. I'd do it even if the theme had been done before, cause the gameplay is the most important factor, right? 
RTCW... 
Ho hum. Am I the only person who thought RTCW was the bollocks instead of just bollocks?? For playing, not mapping, that is. Sure the gameplay style was fairly old school but the graphics, settings, maps, variety, cut-scenes, and general atmosphere....well I liked them =).

But yes maybe to a certain extent (gives ground grudgingly here) the lack of mapping inspiration was more due to game specificity rather than game map quality (although I have few complaints with the latter). 
SP Vs DM 
I remembered what I was saying about this...

Reasons why DM mapping has more potential than SP mapping in games with great in-game maps already:

1. Easier to make a good DM map than a good SP map (assuming you have a clue about DM gameplay). Not least because they are generally smaller, simpler, and don`t use monsters.

2. Because people play DM levels time after time there`s likely to be more interest as they`ll get old quicker (in theory at least).

3. I`m sure there`s something else I`ll mention later...

Yes of course I`m aware that games increasingly have complex teamplay modes or no MP modes at all... 
Mmblah 
Yes of course I`m aware that games increasingly have complex teamplay modes or no MP modes at all...

Or no SP at all. 
Dm Vs Sp 
2. Because people play DM levels time after time theres likely to be more interest as theyll get old quicker (in theory at least).

Uhm.... sp maps get old quicker. A good dm map never gets old wich is one of the major reasons many custom mappers are frustrated because its so hopeless to get their maps played online. 
Nope 
its because ass-holes still play dm4 or whatever. no offence to id but some people have no imagination... 
Aye 
dm4, q2dm1, de_dust, q3dm17

I think I can say with a great degree of certainty that these four maps account for more playercount/matches than all the custom maps for their respective games combined.

Sad, isn't it? 
Bear... 
I think you`re missing the point I`m making. I`m guessing that most SP players play the game SP maps and move on. They don`t play them enough to get bored with them. While DM players don`t play the DM maps and move on, they play them time after time. Thus they can get bored playing them, thus there is more potential for DM maps being needed.

Basically I`m theorising more demand for DM maps given the way DM is played (over and over again) compared to SP (usually once). It doesn`t necessarily work like this in practise as DM players seem to have a very high boredom threshold... 
Erm 
I've experienced recently how most mappers seem to only want to play Aerowalk or Ultrav. Great maps or not, playing these two maps over and over is no different than playing solely dm4 and dm6.

Also, I think Shambler is probably right about the masses of people. I think the custom map people are probably almost the exact opposite, though. At least I am. I crave new Q1SP adventures, but only play the same DM maps over and over again. To be honest, though, I do like to try lots of different DM maps; especially since there are so many great ones out there. But I usually go back to a few perfect or nearly perfect maps just because they're fun. 
Mapping As We Know It Has Changed Forever... 
in the good old days, it was natural that a "mapper" creates both geometry and gameplay. Nowadays (in up & coming commercial games), those tasks are entirely seperated, you have people making gameplay and _placing_ geometry, but they rely on a vast army or artists to supply them with cool geometry.

You, as a hobbyist, don't have that army, so you have no chance whatsoever to make anything remotely competitive. Your only chance is to do only the gameplay side and rely on geometry that came with the game. But this results in levels that, while maybe fun, just feel exactly like some levels in the game. So in short your opportunity for being creative is decimated.

So what do you do? some choices:
- you stop mapping, and do something more worthwhile, like coding ;)
- you are happy to just do entity and geometry placement
- you are happy to map for ancient engines

the 4th option some of you may think of, which sound like "collect a team of skilled artists on the net to create stuff for you" is not an option, if you think it is, you are incredibly naive (or incredibly lucky to be part of the 1 out of 1000000 teams that actually gets something done). 
Aard 
but what if you dont have ten people in the team, but just 2 or 3? that would drastically up your chances. 
Yep 
to about 1/10000 or something. 
1 Out Of 1000000 Teams That Actually Gets Something Done 
*sigh* 
:> 
that team was nehahra team i must say.
and it was rather hard to keep everyone working, and it was for q1.
so, no way to gather the same team and finish something worthwhile for more technically complex games... :| 
Dm Maps 
I`v been seriously playing q2 dm for some time .
To be any good in dm and to enjoy 1on1 game you need to know the playground really well.
Not only have the entire map in your head(thats something more than simply knowing where to run), but perform all the tricks and moves, understand the strategy and have idea where the other player is without seeing him. And even after there is nothing more to learn its still fun to play good map against skilled opponent.

Tennis players never get bored with the court, right ?

btw rtcw requires scripting - another thing that might put off the mappers 
I agree that only 1 out of 10000000 mod teams actually gets a final product out, but I think if you choose carefully you can greatly up your chances of joining a decent one. I mean, if you just browse mod sites, its pretty easy to tell who has their shit together and who doesnt. Granted, a lot of the teams that have their shit together still flop out before finishing a project, but 90 percent of the teams that flop out never had a chance to begin with because theyre run by two 13 year olds that think it would be cooler if you fought with nothing but BFG-type weapons and the max view distance was infinity with thousands of trees on-screen at once. 
But... 
i am always surprised when i open PQ at how many teams actually succeed. i have to say, i respect them and all of you a lot for meeting targets. yea, most teams might not but there`s still a lot making very good stuff, and free which is mind boggling.

as for playing maps, i`m the kind to have about 100-odd maps on rotation and play them. why know dm4 by heart when you can know all your favourite maps just as well. oh, and i DONT play dm on q3 till i can beat the nightmare level. not enough time in the day to be honest!

aard: i think mapping for an ancient engine is still quite cool (altho maybe the majority of people think its boring)!

it`s quite good as it is where mappers make maps for mods. its "sorta" like a team but i know, not quite as good. but still...

ps. metl: take off your hockey suit, get up from the couch and put down the huge remote control in your hand.

and stop laughing madly...

grumble

````` 
Blahblah 
Im sure artists will produce "geometry" packs just the same way many people use custom texture packs.. sure it might still be similar to just using the stuff that comes with the game from the mappers pov but there will be stuff different from what the game offers in future games too. This is pretty much how things work in ut2k3 and there are people making maps with their own or other peoples models.

And since people doing stuff at home for fun dont have deadlines they can very well do both geometry and gameplay altho only very few will actually be able to do it good. 
You Beat Me To It Bear 
Aard 
- you stop mapping, and do something more worthwhile, like coding ;)

Long live the coders! Bwahahaha! ;)

Actually, coders have it rough too. They need maps AND models AND graphics support AND a good dentist because they grind their teeth so bad with stress. :)

Plus, they also need to do some actual coding...

The nice thing is, with modding you`re just changing what`s already there. It`s like starting with a pre-built map and just changing what`s there. Very simple.

That is also its greatest weakness, obviously. 
Coders... 
...Are the scum of the earth. See Maj as an example.

He's also Welsh, which just compounds the issue. 
Interesting... 
Aardappel - yes exactly!

Wrath & Nitin - ROFLMAO!!

Speedy - you`ve got to have a fucking high boredom threshold anyway to play tennis for god`s sake!

Bear - interesting point. 
Bear 
I don't see that is going to work. A large & _useful_ geometry pack would be an order of magnitude more work than a texture pack. And while there are some very good & consistent texture packs (by iikka, sock, rorschach, metlslime etc.) there are not all that many.

available free geometry sofar has been VERY poor, with the exception of some of the better polycount models.

To be able to work with prefab geometry its gotta be very complete, diverse and extensive, all with texturing, maybe bumpmaps etc. Really only a company with a dozen artists working full time can pull that off (trust me, I see this process in action every day, and the results can be quite amazing).

And even if there were some good geometry packs, it is much harder to create your own style with a geometry pack, then it was using a texture pack and your own geometry (in how many different ways have we seen ikbase used exactly?) 
RPG 
Coders...Are the scum of the earth.

Oh, come on. You love us and you know it. ;) 
Wazat 
Come to #terrafusion so I can kickban you. Please.

Actually, I'm willing to admit that not all coders are scum. metlslime is a good example of a fine, upstanding coder. Actually, I wouldn't really categorize him as a coder, but he can still code stuff. I think the fact that he doesn't have delusions of grandeur is really what does it. Most of my conversations with coders have gone like this:

Me: Blah your mod/engine/whatever doesn't work on my map or any of these classic maps by huge authors!
Coder: Silence, pathetic fool! You're ruining my vision of an infallible mod/engine/whatever, and I refuse to listen to the pleas of philistines such as yourself.
Me: What kind of stupid logic does that make?! I'm just trying to help you make it better by pointing out bugs so you can make your mod/engine/whatever even better!
Coder: I told you to stop running your driveling pie hole, infidel! It's mappers like you who don't use mods/engines/whatevers that destroy the coding scene.
Me: Blah well with elitism like that it's no wonder people won't play your mods/engines/whatevers!
*RPG has logged off 
Aard 
I supopse I dont really have a lot of confidence in that people will actually do this (good anyway), specially seeing how people havent really used what q3 has to offer when it comes to creating strong and coherrent new visuals in maps (using own texes, map models, sounds and geometry for realising one vision).

The kind of "products" the "community" puts out havent really changed much since quake or even doom days other than keeping up with the updated but still very similar engine tech.

One can always hope that things will change a little when most new games will almost require cooperation to creat ethings that isnt just the out of the box objects arranged in new ways. It should in anycase bring more new people (modelers that preiously have almost only been used for character models) into creating extra game content. 
Aard 
I don`t understand what you`re saying about geometry (models I presume). Are you saying the amount of detail is just too much, and equating the switch to models which makes that possible with the workload itself? Or are the tools more difficult (why?) or is the degree to which it requires "artists" instead of creative techs higher (not necessarily). 
Bumbumbi 
And when I talk about how the "community" havent changed much since its beging Im talking about:

a) most mappers, texture artists, modelers etc just do their own thing, release maps, texture sets or models as seprate things

b) some exceptions like mappers that also do their own textures for their maps (in most cases the textures arent all that great anyway)

c) mods, people try to gather to create something together but usually the projects die. The ones that survive usually suffers from inconsistant quality because only a small part of the team are actually good at what theyre doing. Only on a few very rare occasioins is a mod copleted that is at least good in every field. 
 
u obviously havent checked HL mod scene

shamb: actually I get bored pretty fast with almost anything. and I dont play tennis

for ut2 mapping I guess you need to do most of your geometry in maya (maybe some other 3d editor). Tool much more complex than any map editor, but also very powerfull - u can do in few minutes geometry that would take hours to create from brushes/patches (if even possible). Doing skinmapping and skins can be another task (but look, many ut2 mapmodels are flat textured, so why bother).
So sure it becomes harder to make maps for new engines, but its still possible to do single-handedly. There are already some great examples. 
So.... 
It seems I have a point here. Hell Aardappel posted along the same lines so it must be right, yeah? =).

Seems like a pity, a real pity.

It could be that mapping has had it`s golden period, gaming-wise, from, say, Doom to UT. From when FPS games became sophisticated enough to create your own special world in them, to when they start to become too complicated to feasibly make a world as an amateur.

It would be quite sad, all that creativity we`ve seen, the communities thriving on it, a steady stream of inspiring amateur releases, that will be halted, won`t be able to move forward with recent and future games....sure there will be some great mapping regardless....but less...

Maybe the QMap community, as focused as it is on older games (albeit sometimes too claustrophobically) is the way forward after all, by staying in the past?? Hmmmm... 
You Pessimistic F*cks 
Apart From Pessimism 
maya. yes. nice.

wish i could use it for geometry in quake. 
RPG 

Me: Blah your mod/engine/whatever doesn`t work on my map or any of these classic maps by huge authors!
Coder: Silence, pathetic fool! You`re ruining my vision of an infallible mod/engine/whatever, and I refuse to listen to the pleas of philistines such as yourself.
Me: What kind of stupid logic does that make?! I`m just trying to help you make it better by pointing out bugs so you can make your mod/engine/whatever even better!
Coder: I told you to stop running your driveling pie hole, infidel! It`s mappers like you who don`t use mods/engines/whatevers that destroy the coding scene.
Me: Blah well with elitism like that it`s no wonder people won`t play your mods/engines/whatevers!


You know, I really want to disagree with you, but you`re actually right. :( There`s a lot of coders of either engines or mods that are just full of themselves.

And then there`s the "mod authors" that are really just spastic 12 year olds that figure "whoa, it`d be reeeal cool if you could have every known weapon and feature of every game in the world in the same mod. I can`t code, so I`ll just make other people do it for me."

And then the mod authors that say "I`m making a mod that needs special maps. You`re a mapper, do them for me. I need them by saturday!".

/me has spent the last 6 or so years trying to avoid becoming like that. 
Scripts, Styles And Time Pits ... 
Alot of new games are moving to scripting system which are getting more and more complex. Some companies have dedicated teams/individuals who look after the scripting elements of the game and do nothing else. Scripting is an extremely powerful tool for the development cycle but without the relevant people around to ask for help it quickly becomes frustrating.

Plus some of the newer games are very narrow on mapping styles and restrict the freedom of the mapper by imposing realistic limitations. RTCW is a classic example because the game is grounded in reality and set to a certain time period WW2.

Mostly the greatest factor against community SP maps is simply time, due to alot of the more modern games being too damn complex. I really feel sorry for newbie mappers nowadays because of all the skills that are required to produce just a simple map. The tools really need to become more friendly and visual. Like the ingame editing of Doom3 or Crytek latest engine.

The development tools need to be purged and made more friendly so as not to restrict artist ideas.

Sock 
Increasing Purposelessness ? 
What is the purpose afterall ?

Maybe to create and have fun ?
And get recognition too (doh)

Even if its hard to keep up with the maps created by teams of skilled profesionals it shouldnt stop creative people

One thought : there used to be only 1 major 3d mappable game, then there were like 2-3. Now there are many (I dont know how many) and I assume there are more people making maps nowerdays than there used to be in the days of doom (no pun), but they are scattered through many different game communities. 
I`m Think`n... 
Games may be getting more complex, and maybe custom mapping will fall out completely for a while. But if that does happen, game editing itself will not fail. There will always be things to change, even if it`s done on a smaller scale or different things are changed.

Another thing is, mapping may become incredibly hard for a few years, but it`s almost inevitable that the *way* it`s done will eventually be revolutionized, and all the tools and needs will be unified under a common editor that will handle a number of things for you. Tools will be more sophisticated, demands on the user will be lowered.

We used to be exacerbated by the amount of work it would take to program a computer to do addition and subtraction. Things change, hopefully for the best. 
Purpose: Increasing Purposelessness 
[quote]Even if its hard to keep up with the maps created by teams of skilled profesionals it shouldnt stop creative people
[/quote]

What they usually do is so predictable, it`s not necessarily even competitive with the freedom of making no money. However, I don`t see many examples of working in a different direction yet. Mostly people try to outdo original id stuff, which is only worthwhile because you can use the original Quake monster set and they can`t.

Also, custom maps can be more challenging than would normally be accepted. 
Speedos... 
Yes to both of those purposes - I`d also add "To make a quality product" too. But it still serves my point...

Maybe to create and have fun ?

Yeah and it`s harder to create something satisfying if the game is restrictive for mapping and your best efforts don`t equal the in-game maps.

And get recognition too (doh)

And it`s harder to get recognition if your amateur map looks like a newbie box map incomparison to much better team-made in-game maps.

...... 
i feel the mapper can become detached if the tools are so complex that you dont know what they are doing. its like driving the latest merc which does everything for you. nice, but not very satisfactory.
its nice to get a grasp of all the technical aspects. maybe not at the start but when you encounter errors and stuff, the technical knowledge helps alot.
sure, i can make something hugely complex in maya but not necessarily exactly what i want. same goes for music progs where i am searching forever for the right "sound", when a musician can more directly get it by matching his guitar to whatever amp and whatever speakers. 
 
Ion cleanser, now with 97.6% more bullshit! 
Was That A 10 Year Necro? 
I'm getting old ... 
Scumbags 
 
Good Thread To Bump Though 
 
Yeah 
I have been wondering about the lack of unique (or to put it less flatteringly, "novelty") releases over the last few years. Of course I'm not exactly an innovator myself. 
 
I think it's more about the mapper having fun these days than innovation. I mean, really, what's left to do in Quake?

"Into The Shadows" was a great mod, for example, but it was a LOT of work for 10 or so people to play it and enjoy.

You have to be into it for yourself these days or it's not going to feel worth it... 
 
Back in the 90's most people would have viewed mapping as a way to break into the industry (as well as a fun hobby) but mapping for quake is now primarily a hobby with a small audience. But who cares? I've had a heap of fun these last few months catching up on all the user-created stuff, and the quality of mapping is exceptional!
Graphics aren't the be-all-end-all of videogames, if it were then we'd never heard of games like Fez and Minecraft.
To say there isn't innovation is ridiculous, I have a great idea for a puzzle-platformer which retains all of the style and setting as quake... but the idea is on the back-burner until I make a few more maps and maybe learn how to make quake models. 
 
You have to be into it for yourself these days or it's not going to feel worth it...

Yes, that's definitely my take on it. I also find mapping is a wonderful way to pass the time while keeping my head in a creative and active mode.
If people play and enjoy my creations, that's a bonus. I think if I made a map that everyone hated, I would still have had fun with the creation of it. 
 
Back in the 90's most people would have viewed mapping as a way to break into the industry

Today, I'd probably hire someone who turned up with Quake in their portfolio.

And that's not just my biased Q1 view - any mod project, from any game would do.

It's amazing the amount of idiots who feel they deserve a job just through deigning to exist.

Someone who turns up with scraps of paper or a notebook full of hastily scribbled ideas is already on another level than someone without.

Many (even ones with university educations in the field) seem surprised that they need a portfolio of work.

It impossible to teach motivation.

And agree with the above views on the hobby completely. If I want to veg out then I play a game, if I want to be entertained I bang some brushes together or figure out how to make some monster or feature better. 
 
If I could break into the game industry with a portfolio of quake maps that would be the dream... as of now I'm just mapping to fill my day with something other than searching for jobs (unemployed for 12 months so far!). 
That Sucks 
Hang in there.

Try picking up a free engine and making a full game in the meantime - there's lots of ways to publish, and you could actually get some food money out of it :) 
This Thread Is A Spam Magnet 
 
Ilovit 
I didn't touch an editor for 6 months now...
because I didn't do nothing, and do mean nothing else the 12 years before it.

That means: waking up - get my dopefish - start up Quark - work for 12 houres - go to bed.

I never wondered about the results.
(for what its worth). 
The MadFox Abides 
Rebb 
never seen that level before...
but I have no tubeyou or driver license.

I guess you intend well although there are no email or site data on your account.

so I made this for you
 
My vote goes for new episode boss. 
 
That's just.. beautiful 
Well 
I didn't realize you were a developper.

Feel a bit stupid now, as the dopefish swims upside down.

I dont know what it is, I always seem to do things backside forth, an Orb that shoots backwards, maps that were good I spend that much time to make them better I become ugly.
Even the name of this toppic reminds me of the purposeless that makes me ness of purple.
I'm howling at the moon seeing others making beautifull maps, while I'm just clunching with a cheek of tooth-ached farmers on a collapsing time debree.

I won't cry, just moaning a little. I must have been mad from the very start I tried to add only one good map to the quake1 universe.
Now I maybe have, but what�s the point having an architecture etched in my mind while it seems just a drop on a heatened plate?

The more I learn, the more the magic of it disappears. Like waiting on a realvis map to come that takes 24 houres and end up with a HOM. Then start again and end up a day later with another one. Then again, and again, for 16 days on I got so screwed up I started my last attempt and went to the Carnival. Ending up in the Ghosthouse seeing ogres grinning at me everywhere and when I thought I could leave I was wrong because outside was the Hall Of Mirrors watching me with tenthousand stopwatches and I knew I could never play the level again.

Oh foolish me. 
<3 
Madfox for World President! 
MadFox In Wonderland / Through The Looking Glass 
Now, where did I put that dictionary again... 
You Know 
you have to put Pink Floyd on when reading a Madfox post. 
Kinn 
lolz. I just read that post with Great Gig in the Sky in the background and it improved it immensely. 
Does Anybody Want Any More? 
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