|Posted by Shambler on 2005/01/02 09:41:31|
|Quake 1 remade in a new engine, blending old skool atmosphere and gameplay feel with nu-skool graphics and technology?? I think it could be fantastic if done right....so how WOULD it be done right?? One might not be able to trust a gaming company to do it right, but one could trust one of the last bastions of the Quake community to do it, right??
So post and discuss how you think it (hypothetically I'm sure, sadly) should be done...
Just make it have that arcade touch without the arcade looks & aesthetics (Quake 3 is a major offender here)
Some Starting Thoughts...
I do have a few specific ideas but also some general thoughts first:
What is important to keep about Quake:
+ Strong atmosphere.
+ Base/medieval/gothic style.
+ Simple visceral gameplay and control feel.
+ Fucked up monsters.
What is not important to keep about Quake:
- Random incoherent feel.
- Lack of story / background sense.
- Crude monster behaviour.
- Specific graphics / themes.
^^^ all of the above also count as "What can be improved in remaking Quake".
I think it would be possibly to retain the feel of Quake whilst upgrading it technologically. Since Quake itself, various games have, in various ways, managed to capture different aspects of Quake enough (e.g. Painkiller, but also bits from Enclave, Q3A, Doom3, and others) to convince me that one could capture the whole of Quake in a more advanced way. Some of what makes Quake Quake IS it's crudity (simple weapons, simple feel, straight-up gameplay), but otherwise a lot of what's special about it is special DESPITE it's crudity, and could be equally special whilst being more sophisticated in both gameplay and looks. More thoughts on that later maybe.
Yes, I love you. This is the best thread ever. EVER. I'm going to say I don't think Quake should be outright remade; If anyone "remakes" Quake it should just be a true sequel set in the Quake universe, not a remake.
+ Definitely get a strong story going to tie it together. The possibilities are endless.
+The atmosphere would HAVE to be retained in order to keep it Quakey. It's not gonna be all happy and well-lit and still be Quake, is it?
+ Fucked up monsters. One thing I love about the Silent Hill games is how much they remind me of Quake's style, or at least an extension of a direction Quake could go. And Silent Hill has fucked up monsters. Tons of em. I would love to see a Silent Hill influence on the monsters, no doubt. They're scary, creative, wierd, and fun to look at.
+ More awesome weapons. Gimme sumfin' new. The expansions had some "quake realm" weapons, kinda like how HalfLife had Xen weapons. I would love to see more Quake realm weapons. I mean how the Hell is Quake gonna launch this huge inter-dimensional invasion without any weapons, eh? Gimme a Vorehead or something at least.
- / + Base/medieval/gothic. I disagree with Bler on this. One thing I love about Quake is its ability to handle other styles of levels. Don't give me the same things. I'm also kinda tired of Egyptian levels, though I haven't played too many of em. It's just a matter of cliche imo.
I would LIKE to see more metal levels. I thought that was a great style and fit wonderfully in the game. I haven't seen too many of them, but they're wickedly cool. Thumbs up on metal levels and other unique styles.
I still prefer the levels to have the Quakey "catacomb/dungeon" feel though. That's just what Quake has always been, and I see no reason to change it out of the cramped claustrophobic nightmare it was before.
I'm not sure what you mean by " - Specific graphics / themes." You may have to explain that for me.
If some people in the Quake community would ban together... err, I better use a different word in case Scampie reads this...
Ahem. If some people in the Quake community would form a group and start working on a Quake "sequel" I would definitely offer my services. I see absolutely no reason to just "remake" Quake. It should be innovated upon, because there's so much room to be creative AND still retain the feel of the original while tying it all together. Viva le Quake!
This Is What I Dream About
If I had the time and resources, I'd be on this like a fly on shit.
It should be a open world game like stalker... linear FPS are dead and buried.
i think monsters would really make or break a quake1 reincarnation.
they must be suitably viscious and devoid of any cybernetics. it's all about the organic beasts.
for maps, i'd say anything goes, really. i'd be all for a painkiller-esque map lineup although perhaps a bit more coherent. a story would be nice, but i'm not sure i'd really demand one as "escape from here with your life" is sufficient for me.
painkiller-esque map lineup, as in many varied locations, unique texture sets for nearly every map. and not "horde gameplay".
quake gameplay is normally about the viscious encounter between you and a few monsters. although hordes are fun from time to time. ;)
I can't add a whole lot more in addition to what has been mentioned here but some things to consider are:
- Keep Quake as a codenamed ambiguous evil leaking into the banality of normal earthly existence.
- Either keep the number of weapons down (I find it annoying that some games have way too many weapon types) or limit the number that a player can carry so that you can abandon ones you don't like and pack your favorites. Six or so should suffice. For example, in the original Quake, did you really need the nailgun after you picked up the perf? Expansion packs would add weapons but still keep all the originals. Too cluttered - less would be more.
- Continue having marked secrets that are counted either in level or at an intermission or on a PDA device. Secrets encourage exploration and is a reward for those who want more then just war medals. To be fair, secrets should not be for trick jumpers only (I mean, don't have Painkiller type secrets - keep the Quake tradition here.)
- I like games that have a continous-contiguous world (like Half-Life and most games these days) but to me Quake could still retain it's collection of segregated levels within episodes all linked by slipgates. Quake should make you feel lost, that you are in this multidimensional multiverse, not really sure if you're deep in a planet's core or lurking about the surface of a moon in another universe with no earth. The slipgate concept means that the next level could be light years away from the one you just exited.
- It should have tools and textures and enemies that provide the user community with a lot of creative freedom. If the original Quake was only the 4 episodes and two mission packs, it would have been a good game but would be only a faint memory now if not for it's accessability to both casual and serious mappers and modders. The new Quake has to attract people who like to map and mod or it will be just another play-once and move-on type of game.
- More freaky enemies. Something like those flesh creatures in Hellfire (Diablo expansion pack) or like some of the better enemies in Shrak (Q1 add-on from long ago). The original filty, half-rotted, stinky and blood caked enemies in Q1 felt right.
- I don't mind a more linear flow but not as linear as Half-Life or even worse, the MoHAA series. The original Quake felt about right but some levels could experiment with a more open feel. Perhaps have the odd puzzle level or story advancement level to break up the combat focus.
- Keep lighting important. Consider the geometry of shadows to be of similar importance as the actual surface geometry in this world.
- Find a combat formula that balances fun, fear and strategy. Painkiller was frantic but completely lacked fear or immersion (but could span the spectrum from fun to frustrating). Using either skill levels or some great feat of design, try and produce something that doesn't keep sending players back to a loading screen. Loading screens destroy immersion and atmosphere, lighting and sound cannot provide a sense of escape if the player is either dumped too much or is reloading from saves. I read a good article describing how dying had more purpose in arcade games but with gaming taking on a more immersive quality, alternatives to the die-reload-die-reload paradigm have been succesfully explores (Diablo II and Price of Persia - Sands of Time present two approaches)
- Super graphics are not as important as super design. System Shock 2 did not have great graphics but the game design and story were amazing.
- Make it fun. Make it addictive. Make it a great escape. Keep it simple but sophisticated in the application of design to meet those three things mentioned above.
I was wondering how the levels should be layed out before the player too. The traditional episode -> levels in linear order seems outdated, but it does present that lost/helpless feeling Quake is good at conveying. You are a pawn of some sort, and following a set path seems like a good way of getting that across.
But then, games like Hexen presented the real-world layout, where you can travel back between levels and whatnot. That also has its merits. It makes the place seem more real. Sometimes you'll activate something which will change a level you've been to already, and the world seems "connected", which is definitely a positive, and can also apply to puzzles/story very nicely. But, this requires a lot of careful planning. A more traditional linear progression could also handle puzzles/story elements, but it would take away from the real-world feel, whereas a real-world feel would add to those elements.
But a continuous world would make level design more of a hastle as well, and mappers that were handling different areas would need to plan their sections together to avoid anything that would destroy the design.
But it's an interesting choice to think of, traditional linear progression linked by episodes or moving Quake in the direction of more modern games: retain the feel or evolve the game.
One of the things I "discovered" when I was playing around with porting the Q2 weapons to Quake, was that hitscan weapons like machineguns/railguns just didn't feel "right" IMO. Shotguns felt ok, because although they are hitscan, their power is totally dependant on range. I think what makes Quake so cool, is that even the long-range weapons like the SNG are never completely omnipotent (there's still a chance for the enemy to move out of the way). If the monsters had better dodging AI, this would be even more crucial.
So yeah, I think a Quake remake should focus on weapons that encourage short to medium-range combat.
Stygian world and shoggoths pls kthx
From The Looks Of The Screenshots
This doesn't look anything like a Q1 revisit, but Q2. Unless Scampie is going to bring all these suggestions to the dev team (good idea, don't see why not), and unless they start to reconsider Q1 or Q2 style.
I wasn't implying Scampie is working on Q4, but y'know, being in the same place and all.
V stands for 5, not 4. we know q4 is q2's sequel.
I Knew That
But I thought this was a Q4 discussion with a typo.. yeah.
In That Case...
I'd rather not see a Quake 5, some things you just have to stop at a certain point before the entire name is ruined. It's almost that way with Quake now, but there might be a chance.
At least apologise for being spectacularly dumb.
How the fuck will the Quake V symbol look? I hope it's not broken up into five pieces, that would look retarded.
/me slaps Phait around a bit with a large trout.
I think that's a decent logo. Wouldn't mind seeing quake 5 marked with that if it ever were to exist.
It should be like the q1 symbol, but with the curly bit replaced by a roman V, and the spike still going through the bottom of the V - someone knock that up in p'shop, I bet it'd look cool.
Okay, gimme a few minutes then...
1 - Visual styles:
1.1 - Idbase still with the same basic hexagon shapes. Beige, white and green hues. Washed out concrete against tarnished metal. Horizontally sprawling bases built across a fertile yet empty landscape.
1.2 - Medieval themes; Quake medieval for me has always been seperated from other medievals by being moist and dirty. All the original quake medieval levels feature water in some form, and they feel wet and rancid. Most newer medieval themes in games are very dry and clean, Painkiller for instance has almost no water at all. Also the water in quake is dirty; Leaves float around in it and it is murky and you can't see through it very well.
1.3 - Metal themes, keeping the blueish stone with horizontal lines. Detailing from interesting movements in walls (indentations etc). Even though you can see the sky, it rarely provides any light. I've always imagined E3 like being an infinite structure of stone and metal, a neverending two-dimensional hell, just that in quake we only got to visit a few areas and you never got high enough to view the vastness of the place.
1.4 - The elder world was never realized as any specific theme, but I guess the general feel I get from them is that they are opressive, deserted and dark.
2 - The gameplay style
2.1 - Episodic gameplay, that is one of the things that I hold in very high regard with quake, you choose your episode, play it, congratulations, you've completed another 1/4 of the game! Complete all four episodes to unlock the end!
2.1.1 - Episode progression, you first have to fight your way to the slipgate, then through that dimension, you end up (preferably) on a boss level where you obtain a rune and go home.
2.2 - Fighting with monsters is more often a personal affair in quake than in other games. You know there's an ogre on that ledge above you, and he knows you're there, so now you are fighting against eachother. You're not fighting a monster, you're fighting that damned ogre!
You often fight more than one monster at once, but even then you're not just firing your weapons in their general direction and hope you hit them. You concentrate on one of them at a time and dodge/run away from the others.
2.3 - Weapons are insta-fire, never reload. All the original weapons are loveable imho and shouldn't need to be replaced.
2.4 - Keeping the physics the same. Running up a slope and jumping, mid air turns, rocketjumping, etc. Please please forsake realistic physics for this.
2.5 - Monster AI ain't stellar, they pretty much just try to hunt you down and kill you. Don't bother with retreating, regrouping, setting up ambushes etc, just try to think of novel ways to kill the player. The shambler could for instance notice that there is a lava pool behind the player and attempt to knock him in with a lightning bolt. Fiends shouldn't indescriminately try to jump about everywhere. Ogres should try to figure out where the player is hiding and attempt to fire a grenade around some corners to get him.
3 - The story
3.1 - The story does not really need much deepening than what it was in quake. There's a military facility, they've got slipgates, baddies come through these and take over the base. Fight through the base to the slipgates, go through and get a rune that can open a passage to the final showdown.
3.2 - I've always liked that you never get to find out what the 'Quake' entity is.
3.3 - DON'T TELL THE STORY DURING THE GAMEPLAY!
3.4 - DON'T EVER HAVE CUTSCENES THAT TAKE AWAY CONTROL/VIEW FROM THE PLAYER!
3.5 - DON'T GIVE THE QUAKE GUY A PERSONALITY!
I agree with much of that apart from 3. I particularly like the description of the Quake themes.
I had an idea last night that if you're too far away from an Ogre, he'd start hitting grenades at you with the chainsaw. And if you're closer and keep dodging grenades, he'd throw the chainsaw at you (sometimes).
Apart from my concerns posted in the Tech thread, if it's to be done, I'd love for it to be set in the Q1 universe, tying the rest of the series together into a neat story that finalizes the Quake world. Perhaps Quake forces call the Strogg to help them, a final grand invasion of earth is undertaken... first episode takes place on earth, then strogg homeworld, then arena eternals take all the players of the war and place then in the settings of q3 arena, battling through brings you back to the war, but in the quake netherworlds... the final battle against the new strogg makron, a robotic shubby walker badass... god, it could be grand and epic and awesome.
Should be the Q1 cresent moon thing, with a big glowing red V slashed in as the spike.
The Thing About My Logo..
While the concept is kinda cool, it doesn't really represent Quake, the 5 is too prominent... Perhaps if the lower arch of the 5 and the spike was prominent, and the top half of the 5 was some kind of bolted, darker metal that is seen but not as bright.
What I Really Like
is the episodic approach in Quake. Most FPS games are completely linear, i.e. you have to go through all the levels in the same order to complete the game - if you get stuck in a certain level, it totally halts progression, and in the worst case scenario, can actually cause the player to get bored and abandon the game entirely.
I think a future version of Quake 1, should take the episode thing a step further; find a secret in an episode, and it could unlock further levels accesible from the start. Perhaps even make episodes replayable from within the same game session, so you can then go back and find the secrets that unlocks the goodies in the start map.
Perhaps Quake forces call the Strogg to help them
Oh dear god no. Crappy B-grade sci-fi cliches have no place in Quake's stylish Lovecraftian nightmare-world.
The end of episode portions would benefit from cut scenes -- like how CZG described The Netherworld -- You grab the rune, and then the camera pulls back on how fucking enormous the actual world is -- and if you pay attention, secret areas and connections between levels would become more self evident. Anything to enhighten the allusive evil feel of the game would be welcome.
Um, why not just imply the enormity of the world during actual gameplay? It would have more impact that way. Ok, it wouldn't be prerendered, but just think of some of the views in Painkiller for example - the Docks levels springs to mind.
What Quake Needs
is to have the Quake Guy chew gum and quip.
After each significant kill, a chase cam pops up and Quake Guy smiles into the camera and says something like,
"I only have one body bag left. I guess you'll have to share."
"I came here to chew gum and take names, and I'm all out of gum. So, I guess you will have to share"
Remove the red face, Kinn or the ideas will get worse.
do we really want to see how low on the casual gamer scale we can go? There could be junior execs trolling obscure forums like this just looking for something, Anything!, to appease the masses.
I'm going to post in this very idea-rich forum to try and head off what seems to be a gathering flamewar by calling HeadThump a retard.
HeadThump was just kidding. Anyway, I think he's made a valid point by highlighting the obvious dumbing down that a commercially produced remake of Quake 1 would no doubt suffer from.
this is quake ffs. how much more dumbed down can it get?
you enter map, pick up guns and kill things, then leave.
maybe there won't be guns, or monsters to kill,... or maybe we won't be able to leave the maps! O_o
It's Okay, Lun
I know you are just venting due to recent events.
PS. I only wear the helmet 'cause me skull is mushy.
So the impression I get from all this is we definitely want something we've already seen before with some cool shaders slapped on because totally new concepts scare us.
Am I the only one who appreciates how dissimilar Quake 1, 2 and 3 are? Yes, yes I am.
By "dumbing down" I mean adding all sorts of immersion-killing mainstream action game shite like heavy metal soundtracks, "bullet time", and cutscenes.
do you reckon it could be pulled off in the Doom3 engine without looking too plasticy? It does seem like the natural successor to the Q1 engine, as Q1 was heavily about shadows and lighting, after all.
pardon, but Doom3 was (IMHO) crap. id (software) REALLY seems to have a problem with the idea of OUTDOOR AREAS. I have always thought the coolest thing ever would be The Ultimate Doom's Mount Erebus level rendered right - that is, with a detail level of Doom 3 or surpassing it, in a level that huge, all outdoors. That or one of Doom2's huger hell-infested city levels. Why can't they comprehend that it would simply be cooler to see hell on a Far Cry-type scale, and that the universe is alas, not a primarily indoor place. I think you could still do Quake-style atmosphere (like what CZG said about episode 3), provided you designed the structures to be enigmatic enough. To be a pretentious bastard, think about Piranesi's artwork. That on a grander scale is kind of how I interpret what CZG was saying. Finding your way through a nightmare world would be so much more entertaining if there was some skill or exploration involved in navigating it.
I was really dissapointed in Doom3. Is it just me, or do the original QUAKE ONE levels have better layouts?
i fully agree with czg's uberpost btw
I was talking about the whole light and shadows thing, not Doom3's gameplay (which I haven't played yet, btw).
Carmack Talked About The Cause Of The Plastic Look
in his pre-recorded quakecon 2004 speech. Basically it's a problem with the specular light - even if you can vary the strength of it through specular maps all specular highlights are handled as if the material was some kind of dull plastic.
cybear, indeed. The size of a specular highlight can be small and tight (on a glossy surface like a sheet of steel or glass, or a marble floor) or broad and fuzzy (on a rougher surface like plastic). Doom3 just uses one curve for all specular falloff to cheapen the math, and it happens to be a broad fuzzy one.
I think it was meant to be the most universal medium between different surfaces like flesh and metal, "close enough" to all of them that you could pass them off as anything with the right textures/application. The mancubus would look really wierd with little shiny bald-head light spots scrolling over him :)
A good texture map and specular map combo can easily override how the size of the specular makes the surface 'look'. I've found griminess helps in that regard a great deal, to disguise the breadth of the highlight and make the surface believably less polished. Fortunately, Quake has dirt in spades.
what about all the brown in quake? i believe this to create a strong sense of continuous style in the vein of technogoth. but i'm wondering whether the same style and atmosphere can be acheieved without having to use that repetitive colour scheme. maybe a sort of dust/fog effect would be a modern incarnation of the style id's artists were trying to emulate.
So the impression I get from all this is we definitely want something we've already seen before with some cool shaders slapped on because totally new concepts scare us.
The impression I get is that we're all nostalgic for a great game that has never been equaled. The fact that the atmosphere and theme are dark and morbid is just an added bonus, and those are elements we've tried to create before and since Quake.
And the fear we have is that too often "something new" is just plain silly in the context of the original (or in any context, really), e.g. the movie AvP compared with Alien or Aliens. However, Rockstar did seem to get it right when they changed stuff between GTA1/2 and GTA3.
Re: Czg Weapons
Bleh. I think Quake needs new weapons. At least visually. I wouldn't mind having new toys to play with, and there's plenty of opportunity for cool weapons. I'm not saying Quake's weapons need to be replaced, but I'm a bit tired of the same thing all the time. Variety is good (generally.)
There Is Room For Cool Weapons
The programmer Maj. Bitch designed one for Quake2 that is beyond cool. You shoot it at your opponent, it wraps around his neck and then releases a grappling hook into the cieling above, pulls the hapless victim up and then jerks the rope until the guy is dead.
Such a thing done in Quake as a hand held daemonic organism would be quite fun.
Novelty Gimmick Weapons
Have no place in Quake.
Wich engine would be used, Doom3, its evolved version i.e. Q4... or a new engine developed for the community, this option is the most difficult but is a possibility.
I meant "...a new engine developed BY the community...".
gattling bolt thrower...
the impact it would have on ragdolls would be so satisfying being able to pin em up ala painkiller only w/ smaller bolts
toss it out; maybe a Half-Life mod to replace that cute little snark with something that has a lizard skull's head, shiny glowing red eyes, hisses at you and the occasional worm drops out of it.
Quake 1 -> Quake 5 Evolution
"czg's uberpost"(TM) [#24] is awesome and covers nearly everything; lots of other good points also.
Tronyn [#45], basically i agree. And isnt Insomina the ultimate example [so far!] of the perfect blend of indoor areas/outdoor areas "grander scale" Q1SP map design?
RPG [#51] The impression I get is that we're all nostalgic for a great game that has never been equaled. Agreed.
And all i say is:
[b]monsters same, lose worst monsters, add 2/3 bigger, more complex, new ones to complement vore/shambler.
[c]maps/episodes basically same structure.
[d]also must keep the SPEED of quake 1 gameplay, just make the graphics a lot lot better. =)
i think quake5 could use a stakegun. i like stakeguns. yeah.
And A Hipnotic Style
double thunderbolt. That would be cool. Ever notice that the Quake 1 thunderbolt is way better looking than the Q3 Lightening Gun? In fact the Q3 model just blows.
i think any q1 successor would needs very industrial looking weapons -- lots of scratches, exposed mechanicals, moving parts...
lots of cool intricacies
we're all nostalgic for a great game that has never been equaled
No remake is going to be able to compete with your nostalgic version of Quake because you've filled in all the gaps. When you look at an Ogre in Fitzquake do you see a non-interpolating model or do you see an Ogre and the many things that represents to you?
A spinoff of Ikka's AMAZING "Hall of the Shambler God" map, the episode basically deals with where Shamblers come from (the birds and the bees, eh?) Elder-worldish/other styles would probably be prominent, mixing in some ruins of temples, possibly Greek/Roman in style. Other ideas to flesh out the style as appropriate, no real solid idea as to how it should actually be. Generally more open-ended maps, as Shamblers are rather big.
The final boss of the episode would be the Shambler God itself, some sort of badass mofo no doubt. I have some ideas of what he would look like, and they're all of a huge twisted Shambler with a bunch of mouths coming out of different body areas (shoulders, chest, hands.) But then again, maybe not.
The thoughts popped into my head of what a Quake V episode could be.
Good Point Pushplay
I think you are very close to that unquantifiable element that makes a game immerse you or not. I have felt much more drawn into Quake 1, System Shock 2, Deus-Ex and even Quake 2 then I have in Unreal II and Painkiller despite thier graphical superiority.
I have wondered if I am just becoming bored with gaming. But then I played the Winter Map pack released not so long ago and I wasn't bored of this old game.
Pushplay may be onto something if there is something in your subconscience that draws you to certain titles - that it is more then the sensory fidelity of sound, physics and rendering in games.
Would it be a stretch to say that games attract people with more then the average level of imagination? If your imagination is not worked along with your reflexes and problem solving brain matter, do you lose interest in it? If everything is presented to you by the game or if you don't get a moment of reflection within the game world, are you losing a chance to bond with the title?
My mind wanders more when I play Q1 then with most other games. In fact, the games I like most are the ones in which you have time and a place to let your mind wander as you play. Tightly scripted games like MoHAA and it's mission packs took away any spare brain and had you playing like it was a job - forcing you along it's predetermined path and at the cadence the designers wanted.
Does this make sense?
the last two paragraphs in particular make perfect sense and its going into my print pasted work book along with CZG's post for this topic and Kell's advice on difficulty levels quite a while back in time.
Despite being an old title, Quake is a visual feast. Tonight I have been playing [Kona]'s Permutations of the Rotten. Now, the game play I am not too crazy about because of the confusing lay outs and arcade monster symmetry but man did he nail down a sensuously gritty atmosphere with this title. Wow.
He doesn't go outside of the Quake texture set in this one but uses a contrasting combination of metal, brick and morter textures and the results are striking.
I'll add this to what you said about the Quake player filling in the gaps with his imagination and so the game tends to attract a certain type of player.
Every Quake level is a physical narrative that tells its own story. It uses the barest of verbal ques and it doesn't push you into what the almighty level developer has in mind for you to learn from it. So, naturally, you fill in the details.
Here go some thoughts about the matter.
I'd like that it was make a reality... but i know it's quite difficult.
There should be the same original monsters from Quake plus new ones that'd fit perfectly in the Q1 style.
About their AI, i think it should be as Shambler has said.
The same weapons, about adding new ones i'm not sure here, i think not, but it's always possible that an awesome new weapon perfectly suitable for Q1 was designed and then what?, who knows.
Of course, they shouldn't need to be reloaded, it's not the Q1 style.
There should be an argument, i'm not very exigent here, it's only to have something at least, an Stallone's film alike argument should be enough =).
You know, something like you need to get the four dimensional keys keeped by their respective four Demons(Bosses), in order to open the sealed dimension where the Final Boss is.
Basically the same styles as Quake1, with new textures, shaders, and i also think that some type of slighty evolution keeping the coherence
Levels also shouldn't be linear and i'd add the possibility and necessity in some cases of back to a previously fully or not fully played map.
Another idea is that to complete a block of 4 levels for example, could be done not only in a secuencial order 1-2-3-4, but for example something like 1-4-2-3. It's just an idea.
This new version of Quake must conservate the same speed as the original, i'm not sure here if an engine like D3 could do that in the cases when you fight against 2 ogres, a vore, 6 zombies... all together you know, those dearly familiar meetings typical of Quake1, i think with the actual hardware, D3 can't handle this situation as fast as Q1.
But in the case that this project was a reality, it'd take at least two years, and the hardware available in two years will eat an engine like D3, so i suppose that those "magical ends of party" should be possible.
Also, it could be developed using the D3 engine
and ported at the end to a new engine developed for the community, or as a mod for the new game Id would release.
for the love of god, no frelling sprinting!!!
just have a run speed (and walk if you want).
also, falling damage should be limited to something small and constant (ie: 5) to give more freedom for mappers and make gameplay faster and more crazy and fun.
those times where you jumped out of the way of a fiend leaping at you only to fall 30 meters down into a pit full of zombies is what makes quake so much fun. no cautious playing -- dump the player into situations and let fast thinking and swift decisions win. :D
what Necros said... Q1 wouldn't be Q1 without that!
evil leveldesigners that know how to express that they're evil and want the player to die.
There should be the same original monsters from Quake
There should be an argument
Basically the same styles as Quake1
This new version of Quake must conservate the same speed as the original
You want FitzQuake and a few new maps with custom monsters basically.
sounds good! ^_^
You want FitzQuake and a few new maps with custom monsters basically.
Improve the edict handling capacity of FitzQuake, and we're cooking. With gas!
Actually, FitzQuake's edict limit seems ok now (1000 in v0.8 yes?), just bump up static ents, sound/model capacity, and stop those flippin' packet overflows.
THEN we're cooking.
i'm kind of an idiot, but i like playing quake a lot too, i don't know that i use my imagination a lot or if i just play sort of automatic... or something. but sometimes i think during play.
blah you get the non-point.
gotta have a bunch of those um... the blue bouncing biters, forming a man-sized creature that throws them at you and they separate from it when it's damaged... muhaha.
alright ill stop corrupting the good chat.
You want FitzQuake and a few new maps with custom monsters basically.
Isn't that Nehahra? :)
Well, OK, it's not FitzQuake, but the essence of the idea is the same.
Isn't that Nehahra?
Actually, most of GLQuake's rendering glitches are still present in Nehahra. Besides, Nehahra introduces a lot of unwanted cruft like annoying particle effects and disco lights.
Ok mwh, I guess you were talking about Nehahra *the game*, not the engine - in which case yeah, Nehahra *is* basically Quake with new maps and monsters. But so are all custom maps/packs really.
You want FitzQuake and a few new maps with custom monsters basically.
That sounds good, but i was thinking of an engine similar to Doom3 or D3 itself, even more evolved due to the time that a project like this would last.
Imagine the Q1 monsters done with D3 technology plus a few worthy new ones =)............
I'd also like to see Q1 using pixel and vertex shaders technology, for example.
FitzQuake is an excellent engine, is the one i use regularly, and should also be a good idea to develop something new using it.
I don't know how far we could go with this engine, and can't wait what'll happen with its future evolutions.
AFAIK, the whole point of FitzQuake is to provide an alternative to GLQuake, by fixing the various rendering glitches that (in many people's opinion) makes GLQuake graphically inferior to the software renderer. It is also a much more efficient, and therefore faster, renderer than GLQuake.
FitzQuake will never (and nor should it) introduce new graphical features that were not supposed to be in Quake in the first place. (Exceptions to this rule are: skybox support, .lit support, but these are generally acceptable additions).
I guess the question we need to ask is: do we really want "Quake V", or just great new maps for Quake 1?
I want at least a couple of new monsters, like 4-5 or so. I have to admit that although Q1 is my fav game of all time, I actually like Q2 monsters better.
I was talking about intent more than anything else.
I'm not able to FitzQuake, so I can't really comment on it's wonderfulness.
I think a large, multi-episode, multi-mapper quake expansion pack of similar ambition to Nehahra would be at least as awesome as a new game! This isn't what the thread started out discussing, but it's what it seems to have turned into.
Hell of a lot of work, of course.
You guys basically want something like Quake: Source.
That is simultaneously a great idea, and the worst horrible filth I've ever heard.
You are my new favourite person EVER!
I would prefer what it's been called as "Quake V", that from what i personally have understood should be Quake1 evolved conveniently, using the latest technology available but also keeping the identity of the original game.
So it must be used an engine capable of doing what D3, HL2 or FarCry do... or even better.
But i think as the majority, that is very unlikely that this project will see the light some day... it would be very difficult and long, but not impossible for this community =).
Of course, if something would happen i'd like to contribute.
The Thing Is
The identity of the original game is something which grew out of the engine. Game design can't be neatly separated from the technology that realises it - look at Quake movement physics for the perfect example; unexpected, idiosyncratic, frankly bizarre, and utterly part of the game.
You could replicate the physics easily enough, but the point remains. Quake remade in a new engine would not be Quake - it wouldn't be part of the dodgy, wierd old bucket of bolts that is the Quake universe with it's flaky water and overbrighting and collision bugs. You might be able to shoehorn the odd bit of new tech like ragdolls into the Quake engine without affecting the game much, but I think that with a whole new engine the look/feel/play gestalt would necessarily be different. It would be something else.
I both really like and really don't like the idea of doing that to Quake.
don't call it quake 5 or anything quake but something completely different. Don't include anything from quake other than trying to capture the spirit and general feeling of the game.... easier said than done though.
I Like Where CyBear And Blackdog's
arguments are going. There are two parts of the discussion that can be handled completelely different: The world/mellieu of the game and the game itself.
Theoretically, you could have a RPG based upon the world of Quake that has none of the gameplay of Quake, and theoretically, it would not necesarily be complete shit.
Aside: New Features, Fitzquake Philosophy
FitzQuake will never (and nor should it) introduce new graphical features that were not supposed to be in Quake in the first place. (Exceptions to this rule are: skybox support, .lit support, but these are generally acceptable additions).
What I think makes new graphical features okay in fitzquake is that they only show up when the mapper/modder intended them to. If you play stock id1, it will always look like it's supposed to. If you load a map where the mapper added fog and skyboxes and colored light, then those new features will show up.
I look at it as a content viewer -- the content creators decide what it should look like; my job is to accurately display it. Like a web browser, or a NES emulator. Fitzquake isn't perfect in this regard, but that's the general idea.
in my opinion, shouldn't be a perfect clone of Quake1. But even if that was the intention, i don't think it was possible, i agree here with BlackDog.
Quake V should be the natural evolution, also correcting bugs that the original game has.
The original style, spirit, they should be achieved as close as possible.
Also what cyBeAr has posted, opens another interesting option.
You could add a bazillion of graphical features and have them be turned off by default...
Just Another Idea
The inclusion of a fifth world made in the egyptian style.
This new style added would complete the fifth vertex of the famous satanic star, giving a more... satanic feeling to the game.
NO! NO! NO!
Egyptian is by far the most horrific theme ever introduced so carelessly by Rogue to the quake universe. I will NOT in any way EVER tolerate quake/egypt crossovers. Same goes for greek, mayan, aztec, roman, whatever.
Quake seems so far beyond ancient civilization themed maps. Although for some reason medieval fits, but whatever. I'd prefer to see something a little more original than copying Hexen 2. (Using some Hexen 2 tex in maps is OK though.)
I agree that using blatant Egyptian (or Mayan/Roman/Whatever) symbolism is crap and totally un-Quakey. However, Quake's architectural themes are pretty vague at the best of times, so I don't think it's necessarily bad to build something that looks a bit pyramid-ish, or temple-ish. It's been done before, and it's been done well. Just don't make it too obvious and cliche.
I take it you didn't like The Castle of Koohoo: http://www.vondur.net/maps/koohoo.html
i didn't intend it to be mayan/aztec/egyptian, leave it alone.
the castle of koohoo resides in the depths of raagoonshinnaah's realm, 3573 years before the great battle of geeheeb.
any relation to maya/aztec consider mistaken kthx.
But, But, But....
... i didn't think egyptian style was so crap... ok no other styles then, i caugth the message =).
Although i personally like it, i have a bad taste.
Anyway, the four original worlds are more than enough.
Koohoo has the feel of being built by netherworld creatures and not the feel of being derivitive of anything created by mere mortals.
What Vondur said. Koohoo felt to me like something out of the Cthulu mythos, not something built by a human civilisation.
It's all that Vondurian architecture that does it.
(Actually, I just wanted an excuse to say "Vondurian" again. Dag that word rocks.)
/me Goes To Replay Koohoo
... is related with the sounds and music.
Would be the original sounds used?.
I think yes.
Would it be necessary retouching them?.
I mean, in order that they had a better quality.
And music?, i dont't think it was necessary new music.
BTW, i've been told that Trent Reznor is going to release all the music that he was preparing for Doom3 =).............
BTW, i've been told that Trent Reznor is going to release all the music that he was preparing for Doom3 =).............
I've been told about it by a friend of mine.
I thought mayan worked fairly well in quake. Also, I thought that rapture used egyptian theming pretty well... or was it OUM... I can't remember, but it was one of those.
Rapture was DKT Norse.
OMG BEST TOPIC EVAR!!
Finally I get around to posting my ideas.
1. Should be a proper remake of Quake itself. Not a sequel, but Quake done proper stylee. Modern sophistication meets old-skool visceral atmosphere.
2. Overall layout: Should retain episodic stylee, but with 5 episodes. The HUB aka start map would actually be a section of the military base, from whence you could choose further sections of the base to explore each of which would be a first map in each episode in it's own right, and lead further into Quake's realm.
3. Episode 1 would be similar to Q1 E1, basically showcasing Quake's styles (including E4 and the new E5) through a randomish series of maps. It would be a compulsory Episode and completing it would lead to the choice of Episodes 2-4, each of which would have some description as to the style, so you'd know from playing E1 which style you'd like to play next.
4. E2-4 would be equivalent to Q1 E2-4, in similar styles to those episodes, and could be played in any order. Once all are complete it would unlock Episode 5 which would be......
5.....ZERSTORER STYLE OMG GENIUS. This would be the final episode laden with pure evile and gothic touches and leading to the final confrontation. Basically because Zerstorer fucking pwnz and it's the only thing that's out-Quaked' Quake for sheer atmospheric pwnage.
6. And that would be that.
7. Story. There would be a bit of a story. Something that's a combination of say D3 story with lovecraftian overtones. Maybe a bit of Hellraiser too. It wouldn't be story-driven but there would be more fluff and dressing to make Quake feel intriguing as well as visceral.
8. Coherence / realism / convincingness. This would be different and improved. No it would ***NOT*** be in any way a realistic game, but it would be more coherent and convincing. I.e. the military base would obey some laws of future-military-base sense, the individual Quake dimensions would obey their own laws too. There would be more purpose, stronger themes to each Episode. These would make the episodes both more convincing AND more fantastical.
E1 - as mentioned, a tour through the forthcoming realms of Quakeness including E5. It would be presented well, for example, you enter the E1 base section as part of a seemingly standard investiagation to find out what's happened in the base. Suddenly the teleporter technology goes SPAZZZZO and you are flung from realm to realm until you manage to calm down the source of this teleportic fluctuations i.e. Chthon and reappear back in the base to find it in an even worse state with portals opened up to 3 further Episodes (you SEE how Quake can be presented better and still just be Quake, YES?).
E2 - medieval baby. This would perhaps be the most traditional episode, involving more NATURE (suitabley warped of course) and traditional medieval themes. There would be hints as to why this exists, how it vaguely relates to Earth's medieval period, but no simple answers. I think in this episode, having some sort of WAR or CONFLICT going on would be cool. Some kinda background mayhem.
E3 - metal/stone/full on E3 shizznit. You know the score. Something that is infested by living beings yet not welcoming to them, not designed for them. Abstract and imposing. CZG's IDEA about it being part of a vast incomprehensible city is BRILLIANT and fits in exactly with giving the episodes more FLAVA whilst retaining Quakey vibes. I also think a certain amount of INDUSTRY would be cool too.
E4 - fuck knows but it would be a lot cooler than Quake was. No overriding theme, but large maps with a warped and disorientating nature would be good. I also think this Episode would be partly defined by it's GAMEPLAY, which would be more psychotic than most, more powerups and SHIT. Not harder but more MAYHEM.
E5 - Zerstorer and you know what that means, dark and GOTHIC as fuck. SPIKES. TWISTED WRECKAGE. DECAYING WORLDS. RUSTY EVIL. DARK ROCK THAT DRIPS BLOOD. Fuck yeah.
I'm supposed to read all that?
It's shambler, it's worth the read.
That post he just made embodied every legitimate complaint that people had with remaking Quake.
possibly true, I do think that Quake V shouldn't be just a straight remake, but still, Shambler posts quality stuff.
Speaks the truth.
MORE COMMENTS AND RANDOM CAPS ABUSE.
So yeah where was I...
8. Maps and shit. Nothing particular here except that each M1 would be a base map, and, errr, that's it. Well some homages to Quake itself would be great for sure, that would be essential. Include some more memorable scenes and all. BUT they would all be cooler, bigger, badder, scarier. Not too much so it got silly, but just better. Like how mappers here have done things bettar.
Exploration would be a big feature too. Although there would be some story and some scene-setting and stuff, a BIG part would be that you're DUMPED in these ultra-dimensional worlds, that you have to explore and find a way through, you;re not lead through by your NADS as in HL2.
9. You. You are the marine. You are nameless. You are alone. You are sent in to do a job that goes way out of control. You may occasionally encounter others, in the base at least. You may occasionally communicate. But at the heart, you're a marine fighting through Quake's worlds on your own. To survive. To kill. To be victorious rather than to be DEAD.
10. Weapons. Quake arsenal plus a bit. Weapons would be simple and brutal. You will get challenged by the sheer bloody violence of the monsters you face not by fiddling around reloading your butthole.
Additional weapons...Chainsaw, Daikatana Shotcycler, Nehara Stakegun. That sort of thing. Upgrades might be good too. Something that allows multiple shots. Or different ammo. But nothing too extravagant. Solid violence.
Oh, and the NEMESAT if possible....that weapon is scary in itself.
10. Monsters. OH YES Monsters fuck yeah. One big feature - the base enemy would be seperate from the Quake enemy. They would be enemy for sure, but specific base enemy. A few may spill over into Quake's realm but they would be as unwelcome there as you are (CONFLICT). Anyway, possessed/warped humans, ex-military now zombified. After your blood as well.
All of QUAKE's MONSTERS should remain, but with a few of them (dogs, fish, lower knights) tweaked to make them more evile and Quakey). They will have Quake's distinctive style (often eyeless, spikey, weird), but enhanced. Not changed like the Skaarjbler made for D3, but enhanced. A few different classes of monster would be good too (e.g. different zombies). Give a bit of variety, keep you on your toes.
New monsters....some would be good. Fill in some gaps in the bestiary. Mega-enforcers and Scorpions obligatoire of course. The latter would be in the Quake realms I think. A Battlesuit/robot thing (QUAKEY of course) for the base stuff would be cool. In Quake realms, well. More swimming monsters. Things that crawl along walls. More flying things. All in the Quake style i.e. not traditional but slightly twisted and warped. Also, something big and chunky, with 6 stumpy legs and a ram head, like a rhino but Quakey. Maybe some more too. Spikey and all.
11. AI and behaviour. This could be improved a lot without delving into the realms of cheesy duck and grenade HL/2 AI. I;m thinking of stuff where monsters are still monsterous and VIOLENT but have CHARACTER, they have behavioural quirks. E.g. Death Knights are vicious fighters but have some pride and honour. Knights have less pride but are eager to please. DK's will also throw Ks out of the way or maybe at the player if they are being ineffective. Ogres are monstrous barbarians but also take boisterous glee in fighting. They will do occasional crazy things like throwing their chainsaws at you and other such pissed off behaviour. Scrags are sneaky and devious. They will lurk. Spawn are entirely mindless. Fiends are vicious hunters, out purely for blood. Base enemy will be more tactical and human like. Shamblers and bigger monsters are powerful but probably surprised you dare confront them, and even more surprised if you hurt them. Then they get pissed...
Etc etc. I think a certain measure of random AI, within given "I exist to kill" parameters would be good. These monsters are out to kill you but also have their own lives and own quirks, they don't just exist to follow a pre-programmed path. They should interact between themselves too, other than just fighting. Hierarchies and stuff.
Okay that's all for now. I hope this rambling conveys the point I'm after, that it's possible to improve a lot of Quake and not only retain the Quakiness but make it more Quakey by enhancing what's already there and making it more immersive, more gripping, and more IN YOUR FUCKING FACE.
I think, BTW, that DOOM3 did a good job of showing how updating can work, and how the "lone marine against brutal monsters" can works, from the point of view of styles, story, background fluff etc (not that Quake's would be the same, of course, but necessarily similar to be true to Quake), although NOT from the point of view of GAMEPLAY nor of CONVINCINGLY TWISTED settings (although it had some of those).
Yes, I agree, get to work... �_�
Btw, for E3, I'd see it more as some kind of giant evil machine/city, lots of strange and bulky gears and machinery moving around everywhere, whose purposes remain quite mysterious to even its local residents of course.
I think a combination of Lovecraft and Piranesi should be about right for Episode 4. Also, work some Beksinski into Episode 5, and you're golden >:D
Told ya Shamber had good stuff.
Barons maybe? If there's one thing I'd want to keep from Nehahra it would probably be them...
(And the stake gun... =)
I haven't re-read all the ideas posted on this thread but I think I agree with quite a few of them, and I think quite a few of them fit in with my ideas.
Oh I had something else to say about that and I forgot and my brain fell outta my ass well fuck that.
E3 could be really fucking class. I mean it was the stylistic highlight anyway, but there's some really interesting areas you could go with that style.
The other episodes would have to be 1337ified to match but I think that could be done...
I Want Quake V
Shambler's E3 needs to have smelting. In addition to heavy, industrial roaring cogs, cams, chains and bushings and belching stacks, you need flowing molten metal and thunderous forges, slamming glowing ingots into the steely bones of this boundless city. If only they could produce a PCI odour card so you could whiff the acrid steel, grease and blood.
I want Shambler to direct the design team for QV. I don't think it would be hard to collect the right mappers. I'll volunteer to scrub toilets and make coffee as long as I can help beta test.
I'm glad this thread is finally getting the attention it deserves. I mean, don't we ALL have ideas we would like to see implemented in a future/retro version of Quake?
While we are at it, I think void maps should make an appearance in some (if not all) episodes -- they always made me feel eerily out of time and place :)
No - industrial machinery is ALL WRONG for E3.
To c'n'p my comment in #tf:
I don't think you wanna make e3 machinery-based - there should be a lot of movement, but it should be weird, like vast metallic blocks silently floating in the sky, defying all logic and physical laws
One Point I Want To Add To What Shambler Said
13. Player should become a monster in the end. He should become more monstrous after each episode he had passed. His power should become more are more overwhelming. And after he killed the final boss he should become the Lord of all Quake dimensions.
Lol, that sounds like something Romero would dream up :/
Shamblers and bigger monsters are powerful but probably surprised you dare confront them, and even more surprised if you hurt them. Then they get pissed...
Indeed! Shamblers merely note your presence until you fire on them or try to get past them or unless some 'overlord' orders them to attack.
Kinn: I gotta go with scraggy on E3 especially since I'm working on a level that attempts an E3/heavy industrial mix (replacing molten metal with blood). Your idea sounds better suited to the 'wierdness' that is - could be - E4.
This is all hypothetical, but I still can't help but get excited.
I really like Shambler's idea of a Zerstorer style E5. I love the atmosphere of that mod, the way it just feels like Quake with a twist.
One idea I had was to have slightly different physics in different episodes or levels, e.g. the lowered gravity in E1M8. Since many levels are on different planes of existance etc, why should the physics be identical to here? perhaps on one level there could be less friction or something. I dunno, just an idea.
I love the idea of Hell Knights throwing Knights aside to get to the player, that'd be awesome.
I think bringing in some more Lovecraftian elements could be awesome too, especially in the later episodes. Crazy tentacled stuff and mishapen monsters is just sooooo Quake.
The most important thing is to keep it dirty, rusty and decayed. Quake ain't supposed to be pretty.
More Ideas (random Stream Of Blah)
FFS keeping my up last night with ideas pouring outta my ass.
Some episode "vibe" ideas. This sorta goes along with Quake being some entity (living? undead? sentient? machine?) that has some control or prescence (but not a physical one) in it's domains.
E1 - this is just a wild tour through the domains. Imagine an extended and playable version of the Resonance Cascade in HL1 - thrown from place to place and zapped randomly to the next place (in fact, you wouldn't have exits as such, you'd just be zapped elsewhere....so you could SEE other things in the distance, which you'd actually revisit later on. Make no mistake this would still be packed full of Quakey goodness though.
E2 - Quake in CONFLICT. As I said before, I think some sort of war-like background would enhance the medieval settings and make them more....tense. Maybe having more conflict between knights and their ilk and Quake monsters in this episode. Not out and out "oh look at all these scripted scenes presented to you" conflict, but more of a chance of infighting between more distinct sides. Oh and fighting you of course. At the same time lots of dank, hidden areas that the player skulks around. A stronger prescence of insidious monsters too, fish and scrags and stuff.
E3 - Quake INDUSTRY. No, not OTT industrial stuff, not obvious, not like Quake2 or anything. But subtle, incomprehensible industry. Basically a cross between Bals and Kinns and CZGs ideas, a metal city with monolithic abstract designs, mechanisms that do things, stuff going on but none of it makes much sense. Living things are aliens here, intruders. The city has it's own purpose, some of it grinds away, some of it moves, some of it sits there. Some of the vibes of the Combine buildings in HL2 really fit here, when they are just crushing through the city, no sense to it, no reason. All in E3 stylee of course. More OGRES and monsters that use mechanical things than most.
E4 - Quake WASTELAND. A sense of desolation, of ancient destruction, of forgotten conflicts, of meaningless repopulation by ravening hordes of monsters. Designs that are twisted beyond their original form, places that once had purpose but are now warped by insidious tendrils of Quake's power, leaving behind altars, artifacts, animosity. A bestiary of powerful, vicious monsters who bear no relation to anything Earth-like. A realm where you must succumb fully to the brutality of life in Quake's realm.
E5 - Quake's HEARTLAND. A home, a source of power, a location high up the hierarchy of Quake's rule, a place from which the evil and violence spreads outwards. Getting close to the centre of the seething nest of monsters and madness (a centre you will never reach, a centre that only exists in abstract concepts not in physical reality). Evil and terrifying, suffused with torment and darkness, organic matter blending with brutal designs of rock and metal....the latter being at least as "living" as the organisms within. The full bestiary is here, this is their domain, they are in control, in uneasy truce with their surroundings.
......please note that these ideas are not to change the vibes of each Episode, but to enhance them, take what is already strong about them, and make it stronger, more convincing, more atmospheric, and hopefully more fantastic - yes they will be less ARBITRARY places, but equally as detached from reality and as unrelated to earth as ever.
Scenes from Quake....I think there are quite a lot of more prominent scenes that should be kept, obviously enhanced a lot with cutting edge graphics, but kept recognisable. Particular designs and settings and scenes. For example, in E1:
E1M1 - outside area with river, inside spiral stair room with lights.
E1M2 - start area with slight bleedover from base, room where Fiend is unleashed.
E1M3 - whole of GK area, lift up to top area.
E1M4 - big underwater area, castle front.
E1M5 - starting area, room where Smabler first attacks.
E1M6 - crushing trap scene.
E1M8 - low G and pyramids.
- The idea being these would be part of much bigger and more imposing maps (not purely imposing of course, a lot of sneaky areas, twisting passages, etc) but would be recognisable - they would have to be done well to do justice to the original of course.
I Don't Edit These That's Why They Are Pretty Incoherent...
Secrets and kill scores - WOULD HAVE TO BE IN! No question =). But, to make them more convincing, you'd have a bit of an explanation about how your armour suit can track such things and keep a record (for what reason? maybe an interesting mystery there).
In fact I envisage the armour suit could be a bit more purposeful. Very little difference as far as the game goes, but there could be some hints that it's a powered suit, able to fit a carapace of other armour on top, and rack weapons on the back. No, this isn't as gay as it sounds, maybe it's not needed but maybe it would make things more convincing (see, explanations without needing REALISM).
Oh, I had an idea about supplies and stuff too. Possible idea, again, background fluff with little effect in the game. In the start map of the base, there's a warehouse section. When you explore E1M1 and things go SPAZZZZO, you end up finding ammo and armour and stuff scattered over the domain. Upon one's return to the base, the warehouse is in CHAOS, crates (yes, crates!) are scattered and open, wreckage everywhere, random flickerings of teleportation residue. The result, supplies are scattered throughout Quake's domain. And some of them end up in obscure hidden places - these are called "secrets".
Of course what you find is not all human supplies....there are other artifacts, other weapons....things that are lying around that may belong to Quake or maybe not, but whichever they are ripe for the picking and whatever use you can make of them. And some of the human weapons you discover don't make much sense - Nailguns? Stakeguns? Not very military - what is going on? (MYSTERY).
AGAIN, no change to gameplay but some more fluff to make things more immersive. None of which should detract from how alien Quake's domains would be...
P.P.S. Deathknights - steam rising out of their visor grills, nuff said.
Similar to Quake itself, apart from E1 being first. Choice of 3 episodes in any order after that. Within each episode, linear progression through maps, but plenty of exploration and alternatives through the maps.
Maybe backtracking possible? I don't know.
you dont know. ok
some one else will do gamedesign then
and you will be art director
:) / Slope / Speedy / Whoever You Are.
This is just brainstorming already.
YOU can be the toilet cleaning boy :P.
Your ideas about E2 and the armor suit are absolutely terrible.
Don't you pay attention? Ask any mapper what the best thing about mapping for Q1 is, and one of the first things mentioned is that you can combine any of the monsters in any way you want. Warring factions/clans/monsters? That idea has ruined innumerable games since Q1 was released.
And explaining how secrets/kills are counted? That's about the stupidest thing ever. Has it occured to you that maybe some things don't need explaining? Next you're going to want to explain how the Q guy can quantify exactly what percentage of his health he's lost, or keep track of all the ammo he's carrying.
Sorry, you don't get it. Perhaps I haven't explained it clearly - well, I haven't tried to explain it clearly.
Conflict in E2 would be more to do with hints and background fluff and a certain biased in randomly generated behaviour than factions and stuff.
As for the suit stuff. No, you're just wrong about that. It doesn't need explaining in the same way that nothing in any game needs to be made more immersive and more convincing. Making some aspects (those that relate to you) make more sense will make the Quake domains, and your playing experiences of them even more twisted and visceral. Besides, as I said, this was not to have any effect on the gameplay. Nor was I envisaging a cheesey HL2 suit at all.
I think you are perhaps better off not reading these posts as you suggested in the first place.
This One Is Short Enough For You To Read However...
...I think you have got it into your head that convincing, detailed backgrounds, enviroments and features are incompatible with simple gameplay, brutal action, fantastic locations and visceral atmospheres.
They are not. You can have both and the former can enhance the latter.
Firstly I realise my comments are open to a lot of mis-interpretation. I really have just ranted away and have not tried to clarify much at all. There's too much I'm thinking of to do that. But hopefully people can trust me that I have the best interests of Quake at heart (you might know I'm a bit of a fan of the experience), and that I don't want anything that would dilute Quake - but I see that it's Quakiness can be enhanced.
Secondly....oh there was a second point but I forgot it.
makes a lot of good points. I especially agree with E3 - sounds fantastic. I personally would rather see new dimensions to be explored for the other episodes, however, I'm kind of tired of medieval and elder world and whatnot, and God knows Quake can support more varied dimensions. I'd post more but I gotta go to school right now.
I should work in game industry as a idea generator
I should work in game industry as an idea generator
i hate preview button, it made me a doublepost (alsmost)
i sort of agree with rpg in that explaining how kills and secrets and such is pretty pointless... no one really cares. i don't think many people stopped to think in the original quake of how the game 'knew' how many monsters they had killed.
heh, most likely they probably thought "cool, it's not a percentage like in doom anymore so i can see exactly how many monsters there were." :P
scores and secrets and such is sort of external to the gameplay experience, and thus don't need to be justified.
But subtle, incomprehensible industry. Basically a cross between Bals and Kinns and CZGs ideas, a metal city with monolithic abstract designs, mechanisms that do things, stuff going on but none of it makes much sense. Living things are aliens here, intruders. The city has it's own purpose, some of it grinds away, some of it moves, some of it sits there.
just... sit tight. ;)
I Think The Problem Might Be
maintaining Quake's ambiguity while increasing the detail.
Maintaining Quake's Ambiguity While Increasing The Detail
That is far and away the most intelligent and insightful thing that has been stated in this thread.
But I don't see it as a problem - increasing the detail doesn't have to mean removing the ambiguity, it can just make the ambiguity larger in scope and more convincingly incomprehensible. I.e. you can provide more information (but not too much, there needs to be a balance) without providing any answers.
i really don't remember this: Nehahra stakegun?
when did nehahra have a stakegun?
the sprocket, which Mindcrime described like so:
Sprocket Launcher(Tsemochian Sprocket)
Crossbreed a spear, a rocket, and a grenade and you might end
up with a Tsemochian sprocket. This weapon takes some getting
used to, but after a while, you'll feel nekkid without it. :)
Keep it simple - there should be only two sides in this game - the monsters, and you. I don't like the idea of warring factions, or other things that distract the monsters from their goal of killing you (although the usual infighting is ok). Similarly I don't like the idea of "arrogant" shamblers (like someone above mentioned), or indeed giving the more primal monsters much personality at all. Monsters can be unpredictable, but will never lower their aggression. Monsters should have one goal only - to kill you as quickly and as brutally as possible, and they should never lose that focus.
As for the design, well, I would say keep it Lovecraftian - after all, that *is* the basis for Quake's original monster design. (Kell and Necros have the right idea here ^_~).
I would personally ditch all the Base stuff, except maybe the start/e1m1. I can't see much point rehashing what is fundamentally Doom's concept - that of an overrun base full of possessed zombies/humans.
Neither do I feel Quake's monsters need to infiltrate the earthly realm - maybe you can start as being one of a team of pioneering explorers venturing through the first slipgate into this unknown dimension, but then not long into the expedition, something goes horribly wrong and you end up as the lone survivor, struggling to escape this incomprehensible netherworld.
I shouldn't have used the word "factions" should I??
How about "an increased disposition towards internal conflict in certain episodes that would provide an atmosphere of unrest and unpredictability whilst maintaining that any monster has one thing it really wants to attack - you"??
OH, that was what I want to say earlier. A lot of this goes along with my "skewable random behaviour generator" monster AI I've been thinking of. Which is as follows:
Each type of monster has various AI stats that govern it's behaviour. These will have sensible and simple default levels which in most cases it will be fine to leave the monster at. However for some circumstances these values will be tweaked to increase the chance of certain behaviour types. This will not necessarily lead the monster to act "out of it's style" but will allow for other sorts of behaviour to creep in (this will also make the game even more replayable as well as being a fantastic modding tool).
For example, you have an Ogre and it would have the following stats (with default Quake 1 values):
Attempt to attack player - 100%
Attempt to get in CC range - 100%
Negotiate obstacles - 0% (I think)
If unable to reach player, throw grenades - 100%
If far from player and in limited area, move around a bit - 100%
Attack other monsters unprovoked - 0%
Attempt to avoid damaging other monsters - 0%
If attacked by other monster, attack monster until it's dead - 100%
But you could tweak those to give a certain amount of varying behaviour IF it was appropriate for the gameplay and situation. Say if you wanted some internal conflict, you could up the "Attack other monsters if unprovoked a bit". If you wanted the monster to be going about it's business, you could drop the "Always attack the player a bit". As far as E2 goes, I am just imagining a slight skewing of certain attacking other monster values, along with a bit of scene setting, i.e. stuff going on in the background that the player can see (in the same way that E3 might have something happening with arcane machinery and stuff).
Whether this randomising would actually work is....well....I don't know. But I think it would have potential of making SUBTLE changes that do LITTLE to alter the base gameplay except to mostly add some UNPREDICTABILITY and allow for enhanced THEMES in some settings.
Just an idea anyway.
I have to say, these ideas come straight out of my ass errr brain, I am just making this stuff up as it inspires me - but it is about inspiration. Some of it might be inapplicable, some of it might be impossible, some of it might be bollox. I haven't thought it through enough, I'm just doing the brainstorming thang.
But I'm also bearing in mind what I wrote earlier - it's essential to keep what makes Quake Quake, but also it's not essential to keep aspects that DON'T define Quake - they can be changed/improved without de-Quaking it.
these ideas of adding ai customizability sounds good, heck, some of that is already possible in quake, but it needs to be used very sparingly.
kinn said it perfectly: Monsters should have one goal only - to kill you as quickly and as brutally as possible, and they should never lose that focus.
i suppose having some scripted events where some knights get into a brawl or something which leads up to a fight against the player but any infighting that is not the result of retaliation should immediatly be dropped as soon as the player is seen.
ie: an hknight starts to fight a fiend or whatever because the fiend was in it's way or something like that. while they fight, both monsters should still be actively searching for the player as if they were standing still and if they see the player, both should become angry at him, and not at eachother anymore.
for normal infighting where one monster retaliates against another, the original quake behaviour of kicking it's ass until it's dead is good and should stay.
another problem with the degree of randomness is that monsters may end up clearing the way for you. there are some articles of interviews for stalker in which on one occasion, some random animal managed to kill a rival stalker you were supposed to kill. this is kind of neat and adds replay value, but from quake's point of view, is totally wrong. monsters should never make the way easier for you unless provoked actively.
i'm not flaming or anything. i like some of the ideas you are talking about and perhaps some monsters could use a bit more 'attitude' than they do atm.
also, i like the idea of, in your example, being able to control how much it will move around or what the likely hood of firing grenades is. but i think the level of customizability should be minimal so that, in game, the effects *are* noticeable, but can't be changed so much so that the monster can behave completly differently.
I agree with czg's comments, especially in terms of the enhanced AI. Some of the comments he wrote about that or what I would expect in a more upto date quake rather than what Shambler is suggesting.
Some neat ideas, here. I think the base monsters should still be used, seeing as how the places the player visits are the nefarious Quake's interdimensional ports of call, with some leftover henchmen to keep an eye on things. Infighting could be cool in some cases, where one could have the watchmen get entangled with the natives, causing a diversion for the player who might otherwise get swamped by both forces. In any case, I think the whole "frontier" type setting would be really cool -- a base-themed technology infringing on ancient gothicness. Mebbe its a converted ruin being used as a waystation, or mebbe the base has been overrun with ogres and dread knights, leaving a good bit of tech around for the player to use...
That's sorta what I'm meaning, adding a bit more PHLAVA without changing the monster behaviour to something out of character.
Maybe the idea for E2 is a bit OTT but I still tihnk it could have a good atmosphere.
I quite like the idea of death knights being sergeants of the ordinary knights. So you'd often encounter squads of 1 dk and 4 or 5 knights, and while the knights were still alive the dk would hang back a bit and direct things and, yes, maybe even throw knights into the fray.
Extending further, you could have some kind of monster clan-system, so monsters would be more likely to attack monsters from another clan, slightly less their own.
Or maybe this would just be fluff that would distract from the process of creating heaps of gibs, I don't know. Certainly a lot of the ideas in this thread could be done really cheesily...
Cheese yes, I think a lot of the ideas are open to cheesy abuse but as long as they remain in this community they will be safe.
My idea with the knights was to....give a more brutal vibe, like I'm imagining if some knights are not running towards the player quick enough, a DK roars in contempt and hurls one at the player before charging in to finish the business off himself. I want to enhance the vibe that these monsters are psychotic. But the effect on the gameplay wouldn't change it much, just make it more atmospheric.
Should be GENERATED behaviour not scripted of course.
Oh, more about my E2 ideas, I imagine a few scene-setting things. For example, in some parts you might come across a map that has more monsters than humanoid monsters, a pile of humanoid monster gibs lying around. Or elsewhere you might encounter a more organised "army" of knights - like in Kinn's map where they pour of the castle. Or at some point you might look out a window and see some fighting going on in the distance. So, like, you'd have the standard Quakey gameplay, which would be great, and that wouldn't be changed, but you'd have a few extra things to enhance themes and atmosphere, to make the Quake world seem more alive.
People And Shamber
I will steal all your good ideas and blantantly use them in my game
so please, try a little harder
and try to not get stuck in `96
Of course the monster AI would be better than Quake; that's kind of implied in the idea of doing a Quake remake with modern tech, so I think it's a given that the monsters would have more sophisticated behaviour and appear less predictable and robotic. That said, I think part of what makes Quake "Quakey" is it's simplicity of gameplay, so I don't think we want to concern ourselves too much with the minutiae of monster behaviour. After all, in those fleeting few seconds between alerting a monster, and reducing it to chunky gibbles, you wouldn't get much of an opportunity to observe the subtleties of a knight leadership hierarchy, or to contemplate the multi-faceted nature of an ogre's personality.
Painkiller sticks to *very* oldskool gameplay, but its levels are little more than static backdrops to the action, almost as if the design lead got a bunch of Maya-trained architects together and said "ok chaps - you model a bunch of interesting locations and then we'll build a game on top of that!"
I think in Quake V, the environment should be just as much an enemy as the monsters within it - traps, platformy-stuff, ambushes, etc. This sort of stuff has already been done extremely well in the original, and custom levels. Makes the place seem more alive, and the player more unwelcome.
So yeah, in conclusion, Quake with uber-l33t graphics, and some in-game scripted stuff - where do I sign up? ^__^
In Quake I always believed that Shub was the the Queen of that universe, using her mind control to direct all of the monsters lower than her on the totem pole. Hellknights do her bidding and direct the lesser Knights who direct, say, Rottweilers. Likewise, Enforcers lead Grunts who also control Rottweilers. While I believe Ogres would be somewhat "commandable", there would have to be a chance (like Shambler's suggestion) that they would take matter into their own hands. The other, more cosmic creatures (Shambler, Vore, Fiend, etc.) would behave more like the archdukes of Hell: their arrogance would make them least likely to take orders and, perhaps, equally unlikely to give them. The other monsters (Zombies, Spawn, Rotfish, etc.) would just do their own things no matter what. Right?
Errr Too Much Hierarchy I Think.
Anyway, a big part of Quake V would be a spectacular remake of the platform/pillar room in E4M4.
"ok chaps - you model a bunch of interesting locations and then we'll build a game on top of that!"
That's what my maps tend to become. :(
yeah spot on Kinn
painkiller got no leveldesign gameplay-wise
same for Sam
I simply can't believe the PK devs made a deliberate decision to remove any possibility of flow from their game.
"Hey, I've got a great idea for our game - let's lock the player inside each room till everything is dead! There'll only be one possible way to finish a map!"
There's lots of nice things about PK, but it still gets a solid "Pfft" from me.
Agreed About PK
I like it, I had fun playing it, and I think a lot of the levels are cool, but yeah the gameflow and artificiality of it all are bollox, feels more like a series of connected arenas than an actual world you are exploring.
PK is perhaps a good example of how to make something vaguely Quakey (fantasy/gothic worlds, monsters, fast action, easy controls) actually quite UN-Quakey in the way it's executed, and something useful to learn from to avoid that.
i think the player physics, fast movement, easy controls are almost exactly what Quake V could have. The gameworld is incredibly unconvincing though, and didn't make me feel for a second that I was looking through my monitor into an actual place.
I really disagree with the usage of a "here's the story" section tagged onto the beginning too. Sure, maybe it's an idea if you've already decided your game has no atmosphere or plot, but personally, Quake V would be all about the atmosphere.
Oh and when we make Quake V, lets just use the ending sequence from Painkiller. Perfect. Hope you noticed the sarcasm; i'm sure i've complained about it before ;)
I think you have a good discussion going here, and my thoughts for the moment -- put as succinctly as possible without too much elaboration as I'm notorious for (take this interjecting clause for instance) -- are as follows:
If you want to approach it like a poly-whore, fine, but keep the Quake vibe. The greens and browns included. And if you're gonna have colored ambient lighting, for crissake, make it very subtle.
2. TECH VERSUS MEDIEVAL
Keep the balance. The tech aspect of Quake was outsized by the medieval almost 10 to 1.
I'm with Shambler. Any monsters you add to the line-up... beeee careful. They have to fit.
The sprocket/stakegun thing would be cool. I always wanted one (probably why I made it). Chainsaw: definitely. As for the nailguns, I liked being able to choose .. but whether they really should take up two weapon slots is a matter open to debate. If they do, you have one weapon slot left as I see it (key 9).. if not, you have two. Whatever the added weapons are, stick to the KISS rule. Keep it simple, stupid.
5. NAME & THEME
To call it Quake 5 draws attention to Quake 2, 3, and 4. Think about it this rationally. Quake 2 should have been its own game, having nothing to do with the Quake name. I won't go into a does-Quake2-suck diatribe. I'll just say that it had so very little in common with Quake 1 that it should have stood on its own, as its own entity. Quake 2 had nothing to do with Quake 1 in the ways that matter. Quake 3 merely shoplifted a few things from Quake 1. Quake 4 is based Quake 2.
If you do a sequel to Quake and involve anything from Quake 2, you will be dragged through the halls of Azathoth and fed to the fiends. In the very least, you'll burn in Hell, but not before I publicly call you lots of naughty names.
My thoughts: You might be cute and call it Quake 1.5 :P Though that's perhaps too cute. Quake One of Two? Too technical. Quake: Chapter Two. maybe. Something along these lines. Quake: Source. Whatever it is it should strongly point to Quake 1... and inadvertently take a heaping, mushy shit on those that followed (by the mere implications of coming together to make a sequel to Quake 1 ... when we're now up to Quake 4.. what does that imply? You know.:p)
Why not go with Shub again? Who's to say you actually killed the bitch the first time? You know... you can only really ... truly ... kill these types of things on their home plane. I never got the feeling her pit was her home plane.
Only this time make her more active. You could really make Shub terrifying if you set your mind to it. You just have to stop thinking about her sitting on that island in the lava and wriggling her tentacles all pretty like. Imagine her taking a more active role.
As for episodes...
I wouldn't remake the Quake levels. I think the idea of starting it at E5M* is a good one. It also reinforces, in a strong voice, that this is indeed.. the continuation.
7. WASN'T NEHAHRA THE SEQUEL?
No. Nehahra was *a* sequel. Not *the* sequel. And because Id Software or Raven software are never going to make *the* proper sequel. Someone else should.
Hence, this thread rocks. Whether it will amount to anything... heh... I'll make no predictions.
Now For Something Completely Different
Well, there was quake. Then there was quakeworld. Then there was all this other ... stuff, that id did after that. Let's not talk about that.
Maybe now would be a time for a sequel for quake and quakeworld, now I see two ways the latter can go: quakeland or quake universum. (you know, like miss world and miss universum) Or maybe in the Commander Keen vein, quake galaxy. :)
Ok, ok, qw wasn't singleplayer like you chaps are talking, but still, they had all these glorious visions of players traversing the world through slipgates (that connect to other servers) etc etc. More to it than just banging the same deathmatch maps over and over.
Now the technology could allow them to do more stuff than back then.
Like how about adding lots of levels with the game going on and on and around the world and you could meet others and do co-operative stuff, immersed to the game all the time. (Never go back to the os to browse servers or chat etc.) The levels could be made by community guys and there would be different servers where a controlling authority would test and approve or demand improvements to submitted levels.
That would be the exact opposite of doom 3, which was a polished movie-like product, whereas the quakes have always been much more of a community process going on.
Just throwing out some ideas, unconventional and hard to think how they would exactly work.. :/
Thanks for those thoughts, I expected a lot more ranting for some reason ;).
BTW, non-base outweighs base 6.5 : 1 against not 10 : 1.
Agree that coloured lighting should be subtle. But it would be useful though.
I still prefer the remake idea to a sequel.
I discussed 'sequel' because that was where this thread seemed to keep leaning. A remake is okay... if and only if you had a team with each member dedicated to the task and would absolutely positively finish their work on it(at the threat of being publicly beheaded or demasculated).
What I Forgot To Say....
Should this graduate into a reality and move beyond the discussion stage. I'd be happy to be involved. That is, I'd be happy to help where I can. That's not a thing I say lightly because I really have to *believe* in a project to devote time to it. I think it goes without saying that I would certainly believe in a project like this. Whether I'd be of any assistance beyond being a quasi-consultant will depend on the platform and what skills I'd have to offer based on that.
We should totally work in some Aliens IP in there too.
Yes, Bring Back Shubs!
What if, after gibbing Shub in the original Quake, that the remaining pieces of her slowly became sentient. You could then have several smaller versions of her trying to reunite back into her original form. Each of these Shublings(TM) could have their own set of attacks and defenses and wouldn't require being killed by some cockamamie teleportation trick.
One of them could use telekinesis to keep the player at bay (a la trigger_push) while another spawned monsters. The possibilities are endless...
Could Be Interesting,
how 'bout, she does not reunite in here original form, but becomes a 640 foot tall hideously beautiful Goddess named Lilith and the form that was Shub was just her uretha spitting out daemons.
Quake And Lovecraft
The original sort of got away with a half-arsed "let's make a doom-ish game, but nick a load of names from the Cthulu Mythos" thing that kind of worked at the time (and is a totally cool thing to emphasise with custom levels, e.g. Kell's/necros' stuff), but in a modern version, I dunno - I think you'd have to choose to either do it properly, or create a totally original mythos. Maybe I'm fussing too much though.
We Require ... A
I like both ideas, a remake or a sequel, i've not decided wich one i prefer and i'm thinking about it since this thread was born... argh!
I like weapons that fit the architecture. I dont really love magical weapons, because break somewhat the inmersion.
So... I love powerfull double shotgun.
Do you know "The Army from darkness"? thats whas a Q1 film.
Yes, you can mix a bit of nowdays technology with archane one and very strange wizardy/chultu one. Thats work. But sould be really rush, gray, brown, old, oxxx.. The weapons need to fit the theme.
Sould also fit the theme. What Quake1 lack if big shambler versions of shambler. No giganteous, but 150% bigger. I also love the fiend. A shambler alike monster, faster than shambler, vicious but weaker can be fun.
Whats about gibs? I think gibs sould create blood stains. We want smoke, we want dirty. Gibs its to me something really related to quake. Other games (like hl1) have very small gibs or not gibs at all. Gibbing and Fragging its Quake
You probably don't know me, and might not value my input at all, but I feel obligated to stick my head out. I'm currently semi-active in the Quake modding community (yes the qc coders), have been with Quake during ups and downs, defended it when my friends explained how superior Half-Life is. Hope that counts for something.
As I started reading this thread, I instantly joked on IRC about how doomed and out of place this thread was. This because the qc community often sees func_/#tf as a bunch of stiffs, who are stuck in the past, only like Quake as it is and dare not change anything. Many posts in this thread already point to this. Now that I got you all upset and stuff, I must note that I'm glad it's being discussed. Proves that you aren't as stiff as I/we thought. I thought you all despised things like high-poly models, more colors and realtime lighting with stencil shadows.
One thing that is for sure, is the fact that there is no way to make a perfect (or even close to) Quake remake. This because Quake is in its essence very, very vague, which leads to people making up their own interpretations, stories, explanations. So what ever you do, everyone else will hate atleast some of it, if not most of it. I'll be one of those haters for sure, since it will with 99% accuracy not be what I personally envisioned.
This leads me to another point. I actually tried this once, remaking Quake. A fellow by the nick of Randy, or RandomMan as it is in its full glory, was making some textures and models to override the existing ones in Quake. I asked him why he wasn't with the re-texturing/re-modeling project bunch, and he said he despised them, as they had no sense for what is Quake and what isn't. As I agreed, we set out to, yes, remake the entirety of Quake with Doom3 level graphics, and other enhancements. After a while of work on this project brilliantly named RemaQe (thanks LordHavoc for the name idea), with Randy modeling and painting, me writing the design document and slightly coding, the project died out. It did so for the very reason I mentioned earlier, disagreements about what was Quake and what wasn't. Our visions didn't match (not just me and Randy, LordHavoc was there too). I now agree that I had some completely retarded ideas back then, and I'm sorry about those. The best thing that ever came out of that project, must be this screenshot: http://www.digitalfunk.org/crap/dp000104.jpg
Even if the Shamblers hand is inside the wall, it's the best one. It shows Randy's new Shambler model, and some texture updates on the walls (those were updated more later). Yes, that's a Shambler in E1M1. No, we didn't intend that in the final product :). The shot also shows some of the changes we decided to make, which hopefully you guys will agree are of the right type. Such as the toes on shammys feet there, and the loose hide. Those were added based on old Lovecraft text bits, and various artist renditions of a Dimensional Shambler from the Lovecraft world, independent from Quake. Feel free to check out the rest of the /crap/ folder, there's some interesting WIP screenies and other stuff, not all Quake/RemaQe related.
I'm not sure where I want to go with this post, besides noting my existence (hi mom), and bringing up the issues anyone who tries to attempt this will have. I'm not sure I can add a lot to what I think a Quake remake should be like, a lot of it has been already said, and I'm tired. I've got a lot of details in this document of mine, and in my head, and listing those would be longer than this post (thanks for reading this far by the way). This has slightly inspired me to go back to visit RemaQe storyline, compare what I thought was good back then, with now.
Good luck to anyone who attempts it, and long live the brilliance that is Quake!
PS: I must say I'm disappointed how no one mentioned DarkPlaces as the target engine to use for this remake. I know a lot of people dislike it for (in my opinion) silly reasons like bad particles, strange colors, and other stuff that doesn't pop in mind at the moment, all of which can be changed. Instead Doom3 was mentioned, which is bleeding silly. With Doom3 you get: limited support from engine dev's, limited amount of baddies on screen, can't release it standalone. Using DP you'd get the opposite of the above. There's also nothing more cool than to create an industry level remake of an old game, using the old game's engine. Significantly modified and enhanced I admit, but still :).
I'm going to bed. Good night.
Welcome To Func
I thought you all despised things like high-poly models, more colors and realtime lighting with stencil shadows.
You really mustn't read this board very closely then.
We play other games. Newer ones. In fact, we have an "Other Games" thread about the other games we play that aren't Quake. But we keep playing/mapping for Quake because Quake has not ceased to be fun simply because more graphically detailed games have come out.
I haven't read this board very closely, no... In fact I was linked to this thread. I think I will start reading around though.
/me moves the mouse-pointer towards the Register button
I think the main problem most of us have is that almost all attempts to add technical improvements to Quake are accompanied by content that's mediocre at best. Normal mapping is cool, but we're not going to get excited about crappy normal maps. Most of these engine projects seem like tech demos rather than coherent mods.
I think we're also pretty jaded about the capabilities of the community -- there's talent here of course, but probably not enough for us to expect some grand new TC or mod to appear with enough artists, coders, and mappers behind it to be a quality package.
Bring back Bnayni!!
Some of those shots look pretty cool. Well, "pretty cool" = based on what my own ideas are for what an updated Quake should look like. Although I have to say there's not a lot there for new content; it's just different shots of the same stuff.
Anyway, go poke around the forum.
I would love to expand on Quake like crazy. If I made Quake V, it would probably be a lot different than Quake is now. I would not just have more idbase, metal, medieval and elder worlds. The Quake universe is simply to wide to be narrowed by such repetition. There are countless worlds out there that should be explored, of course keeping with Quake's flavor.
Just keep that medieval crap out!
my life for medieval crap !
No Medieval Crap
more metal/runic clunkery i can accept, but for god's sake no more castles!
Vondurian and Kellish medieval is good and rightly unique.
Im fine with em, as long as theyre creative, and not just... big stone walls with a portcullis and a moat over and over.
More supernatural, and in more unique situations involving water (and not watery tarts, which is hardly a basis for a system of government).
Either way, I am a fan of things like The Crypt of Decay (I wish there were more centralized monolith maps) and they have their own place in the Quake world.
If you're a Quake fan, you HAVE to like castles.
Remaking quake has already been done already. In my opinion, it is nearly done, if only you put all your maps, models etc together.
Nobody except the hardcore quake lovers will play a remake of the original, there is too much stigma attatched; you say "quake", and the word association triggers "brown", "ugly" and "old". I know YOU all love quake, but most people dont. If all the coders, mappers and moddlers got together to make a new, standalone game, i think many would join.
A sequel/standalone game should keep the old atmosphere, but have good graphics, atmosphere, physics, AI and above all, awesome gameplay. No more running through levels, just shooting monsters, Serious Sam has done this perfectly. No more running around to press all the buttons and all the switches, it isnt any fun. What i enjoy in a single player game is varied gameplay. Sniper missions, or shooting from a moving vehicle is awesome. Shooting down spaceships with rockets is superb.
In my opinion, what the quake community lacks is direction. I see workers on seperate projects, rehashing different ares of the same game. A big project atracts help, a mod only attracts interest. So, get a website, call it the biggest project ever, advertise for help wherever you can, get a team and you have the beginnings. I believe the community would drop what they are doing and help, because this would be the largest quake project ever attempted.
Here is my idea.
-Challenging AI (enemies run for cover, throw grenades round walls, run while shooting, try to flank you)
-Varied gameplay, sniper modes, timed levels, underwater battles etc. I think this is the most important thing.
-Half decent physics ant least, ragdolls are now standard.
-Big guns. Not futuristic, bit powerfull, old fasioned things. Bombs are also fun. See duke nukem 3d for my thoughts.
-A storyline. One that makes you think you are making progress, not just running through random levels.
-Frequent news updates. Or people will give up interest.
imho thats EXACTLY what we dont want/need - different game modes are just the workaround for a bad 'main mode'. i dont want to drive cars (id play a racing game for that), i dont want to camp and snipe (id not play cs for that). i want one real good mode - just like in quake. the variation comes in during leveldesign. quake never gets boring, just because its so much fun fighting the monsters in different situations (not including driving or similar stupid shit).
btw im replaying descent2 atm, just because its so much fun shooting robots and navigating in real 3d. it doesnt have vehicles, it doesnt have sniper guns. the gameplay is just plain good.
enemy ai is a different story tho - im pretty sure i dont want ogres to duck behind cr8s and throw grenades at me, but it'd be extremely nice to have enemies trying to get behind you, etc.
Thanks for your input, although I don't really agree with any of it.
Nobody except the hardcore quake lovers will play a remake of the original
So by similar reasoning no-one is going to play Quake 4 because only the hardcore Quake 2 players are still playing Quake 2?
Sniper missions, or shooting from a moving vehicle is awesome. Shooting down spaceships with rockets is superb.
What megaman said. This kind of gameplay has nothing to do with Quake.
I believe the community would drop what they are doing and help, because this would be the largest quake project ever attempted.
Well, I don't think there is realistically going to be a community remake of Quake. For starters, to make a standalone sequel to one of id's games would surely violate all sorts of license agreements. That Doom "Reborn" project for Quake 3 got shut down pretty quick, didn't it?
Secondly, out of those people who care enough about the original game to do it justice, I feel that those with the required talent and/or time available to be capable of tackling such a project comprise too small a subset.
I can agree with that... Quake did one thing, and it did it well. Very well. Quake gameplay is a stout fire that never cools, though you can grow used to the glow... but that is what we have custom maps and mods for: gasoline.
As far as AI goes... I love AI. AI tickles me in places where Scampie wouldnt dare (or think of). But monsters in Quake dont take cover, they dont angle their grenades off walls and around corners. They dont radio in for backup. But they do hunt your ass down by the scent of your crusty wounds, and the taste of your blood upon their lips. They may not know the extent of their surroundings to well, but they should know what a door looks like, and get the gist that stairs go up.
So what I would propose is not all kinds of advanced AI concepts... but a good waypointing system. So if you alert a monster, and then disappear from the room, hes going to go where he last saw you, and then choose a path from there. As opposed to in id1 where they just kinda bounce around within that room, and you can step in and out, picking them off with pot shots.
This is the main thing I think, that makes people regard the monsters as being stupid. Their inability to get around objects and at least SEEM to be looking for you. Ive theorized a lot of systems to make monsters emulate hunting for you using waypoints, some of them more effectively than others (because a fiend or a rottweiler should be better hunters on a pheremone level then a knight or grunt).
And my proposition for these waypoints is... FrikbotX. Not the bot itself, but its waypointing system. It works. We can see that by the bots navigation through maps. And they are external waypoint files, so you dont need to hardcode them. Also, they are available for every id map, via the Frikbot Waypoint Depot.
Its not a massive change to Quake, it is very minor; but it makes a big splash at the same time. Of course there are little nuances you can add, such as monsters becoming alert and hunting if they encounter a monster corpse, or see another monster that is alert, or hear firing, or see a random grenade come bouncing about.
I could go on a lot longer about this, but I figure this post is long enough as it is.
monsters becoming alert and hunting if they encounter a monster corpse
IMO, the Quake universe is so hostile and random that a stray corpse might not mean anything other than Mr Shambler woke up on the wrong side of the bed and took it out on Mr Ogre.
but a knight/hellknight/enforcer/ogre might notice
You Can't Make The Monsters Too Smart...
... because there's only one of you and there's a metric crapload of them (imagine marcher with SAS-style enemies!).
That said, having them know the way around the map sounds sensible.
each monster should have a Ph.D. and consistently beat Edward Witten and Stephen Hawking on a team in chess matches. Also, they should all be able to shoot laser beams from their eyes (or horns) and rocket bees from a magical space cannon.
I Am By No Means An Artist
but I am by all means trying to stay awake at work... and thus will make crappy pictures based upon loose ideas Ive had. I know, its not geometrically perfect, its not texture, and its sloppy... I would much rather model it and render it in someway, then Photoshop it up some, but I used what I had available to me on this uni pc.
Either way, without further ado, my crappy Quake 5 logo.
If Quake is about anything, it is about fucked up demon arches -- even on our spikes . . .
The AI should bring out the character of the type of monster. Right now they all have the exact same behaviour except for different weapons and the zombie thing.
And having the monsters idle better would help too - instead of just standing there they could work hellish machinery or wander about a bit, randomly along a given path. It'd add to an element of surprise and give it more of a replay value. Not to mention you'd actually have to improve at combat and not just learn the level.
... like so that replaying the level you'd still be surprised by the encounters that you're repeating, because they'd happen slightly differently. With them moving around you'd never have guaranteed clear areas either, you'd have to be on your guard constantly.
The ORIGINAL Quake Concept
I would love to play a RPG-like Quake game, with all the original ideas (the Hammer of Thunders and the Soul Cube, and dropping the militar/base stuff). More H.P. Lovecraft than anything. Why didn't nobody ever tried to make a mod using the original id ideas ? Copyright issues ?
and dropping the military/base stuff
The base levels justify using modern weapons
in the game, so I don't see getting rid of those
unless you go premodern with the arms or use an other dimensional variant of the weapon types, and that would be pretty cool actually. I consider the thunderbolt to be unearthly though none of the adversaries use it.
A lot of mods use the themes you believe to be lacking. Tronyn's work is Lovecraftian, as is Kell's and MindCrimes.
I consider the thunderbolt bla bla none of the adversaries use it.
A big one is installed in the first dimension for destroying C'thon, however.
Speaking Of The House Of Chthon
The base levels justify using modern weapons
in the game, so I don't see getting rid of those
unless you go premodern with the arms or use an other dimensional variant of the weapon types, and that would be pretty cool actually.
Well, that's the idea: remake Quake as it were supposed to be. I wouldn't complaing seeing some of Painkiller's weapons, like the painkiller (that spinning blade weapon with a hook in the alt fire ) or the stake launcher replacing the nailguns. Bows. Spears. Torchs! Some monsters, like the zombies, could fear the fire, for example. Medieval weapons, magic weapons (earned in later stages). Think, for example, combining the end-level runes with the Hammer of Thunder and enabling new attacks. There is just so much room for new ideas. I really would like to see something really different but yet having that Quake atmosphere.
A lot of mods use the themes you believe to be lacking. Tronyn's work is Lovecraftian, as is Kell's and MindCrimes.
What I observed is that nobody yet took the original Quake concept and tried to make a mod with it. I believe there are lots of good work with Lovecraft inspiration, but that's another thing.
A more Lovecraftian Quake would be cool. I could see fighting on some moon village or travelling to more dream-world landscapes with neat visuals. The original Quake took place mostly in dungeons and sh*t, but a ton of Lovecraft's stories revolve around majestic cities witnessed in dreams or far off kingdoms etc. There's definitely a lot of room to expand the Quake feel while losing the brown/grey Quake look. So, if anyone were to do a Quake V, then I would say definitely expand the concept of the Quake universe instead of just making more base/castle/runic/metal maps.
one could do Quake Roots. :)
But hey, on a side note, are those lovecraft books and stuff good reading? Which of them?
A Few Thoughts.
In terms of level design I think one of the most important things to add to the tools would be props. It's the little touches that really enhance atmosphere [I think], such as old bones scattered around the edges of a room, spent ammo strewn about the place and maybe even the odd Fiend turd for Quake Guy to stand in.
It would also allow for more detailed light fittings, etc. Just imagine that light texture with the fire behind stretched faces, modelled in 3D and casting proper shadows on the opposite wall.
Ambient sound is also very important, of course [no footsteps though, they make movement feel sluggish]. Hearing distant monsters communicating with one another in some freaky language would be interesting [and could also be quite chilling, if done correctly].
Ragdolls shouldn't just be the same boring crap I've seen in all the new games. Each monster should have 'ragdoll behavior' ... for instance, a Hell Knight will still drop to it's knees before slumping on to its face, but will react correctly to the surface it lands on. A fiend, if killed mid-jump might go limp and slide heavilly along the ground, scattering a plume of dust/debris. Of course, gibbing should still occur and be as unrealistic as ever.
I think one of the hardest areas of a remake/sequal would be making the monsters more detailed without having them look cheesy. I've never really approved of any remakes I've seen of the Shambler, because they always look a bit cartoony. Some ideas I've had for monster details would be for Scrags to be semi-transparent [so you can vaguelly make out a ribcage and organs] and for zombies to be maggot infested, perhaps with flies buzzing around them [no ragged clothes please, that's far too corny].
As for episodes, I think there should be far more than five but they would be shorter affairs, comprised of maybe one huge level or [more realistically] a hub of interconnected levels that you may occasionally have to go back and forth between in order to complete goals. This would allow the mappers to revisit old themes AND explore new ones. I'd like to see a 'wood' theme, a little like how I imagine the proposed wooden 'world' that somebody designed for Alien 3.
As for gameplay devices, I still like keys and buttons, but perhaps they could be used a little more sparingly than in the past.
Weapons: No sniping weapon of any sort, please. Sniping has to be one of the most boring things in an FPS. Personally I also dislike chainsaws -- the noise always irritates me [and I'd hunt down anybody who tried to replace the axe with ANYTHING].
Weapons should lie on the floor or be propped up against walls ... none of that floaty spinny guff unless there's an obvious explanation for it in the environment [other than: "Oh it's magic"].
I have an idea for a storyline [actually, several intermixed], but I'll spare you all for now.
Re: Frag-machine's Comment
Ermm, hmm, Lovecraft was the furthest thing from my mind in Nehahra...
(Many years ago, I was a bit of a Lovecraft junkie... but that was before Lovecraft became *trendy*, ahem)
I like your style, especially this:
A fiend, if killed mid-jump might go limp and slide heavilly along the ground, scattering a plume of dust/debris. Of course, gibbing should still occur and be as unrealistic as ever.
And also this:
I think one of the hardest areas of a remake/sequal would be making the monsters more detailed without having them look cheesy. I've never really approved of any remakes I've seen of the Shambler, because they always look a bit cartoony. Some ideas I've had for monster details would be for Scrags to be semi-transparent [so you can vaguelly make out a ribcage and organs] and for zombies to be maggot infested, perhaps with flies buzzing around them
You too seem to be thinking along the "keep it Quakey but enhance all the Quakey aspects" lines, w3rd.
Which Reminds Me
of those shitty "better looking" textures which have become standard for alot of players (The drop-in .tga or .jpg ones). I know gibbie is working on true-to-the-original texture replacements, and they look good, but I am still jaded against replacing the textures since they almost always look like crap!
Show us gibbie. And I am right up there with you inertia.
Id's Textures I Suspect
would have been made from a master set that was then indexed for the game. If they could be persuaded into releasing those that would be the best of both worlds. Higher resolution for those who want it, and for those who don't, dithering software for indexed textures has improved quite a bit since 1996; running those through an action in Creative Suite 2 and putting them back into classic .bsp's as 16 bit palleted textures would still produce some wicked nice results.
Hmmm, if the id textures were based off higher res originals, then I don't think anyone could object if they were used in engines that supported them. I'm not 100% convinced that they were though - I vaguely recall reading that id made the doom/quake texes in an in-house pixel-pushing program that effectively just streamlined the art of directly painting in an 8-bit palette at (I would imagine) the target resolution.
Sounds a bit crazy, and I might be (i.e. probably am) talking total bollocks. Someone should ask Romero on his forum what technique they used - he's usually pretty receptive to answering questions like this.
I had a model kit as a kid called The Visible Man. It was a clear human with separately installed bones and organs. I painted his viscera all different colours. Your concept of the semi-transparent Scrag is awesome. With your imagination you should be an advisor to the design team if we are ever lucky enough to get an upgrade to Q1.
Good Idea There
I would first have to ask him about the nick, TheRomero. I could see George Romero getting away with it, but John?
FFS let's settle this shit.
They are hand-made 256 color pixel art by Adrian Carmack. (Who's retired now btw.) Read up Kevin Cloud's interview somewhere in the web. He explains how they've done stuff for those games. I won't bother into browsing the net for that article since this computer doesn't have a mouse. (really!)
At least deluxe paint was used when making art for doom and quake 1. That is one damn good and intuitive program, and I still use it occasionally.
That's why they are so fucking amazing. They're hand-made by an extremely good artist.
If you look at q2 textures, they're generated from higher color and prolly higher res stuff too and have horrid banding and sloppy fuzziness everywhere. Just the grey base stuff is sooo ugly it makes q2 look 1000 times worse than quake.
Doom had some very nice and inspired textures too. Some were made from photos but still touched up by hand.
Pixel art is an archaic skill in this age of photoshop layer smudging... but there still are a few sites that show some old masterpieces from the amiga and vga pc era.
Calm Down, Bro
I suspect there is a master set because you can see subdetails jump out quite clearly when you resample the textures at higher resolutions. The method you describe doesn't exclude that possibilaty.
But if A. C. really did create these at 64x64 pcx, I'd agree with you that that is impressive.
Cheers, I thought so.
I'll have to look into Deluxe Paint sometime if it is available now. I'm all about getting as much bang per pixel to minimize download sizes.
Okay, maybe I leapt into conclusions some.
The interview is a fascinating read anyway
GameSpy: Could you describe your creation process? How do you move from concept to the final skin or texture?
Kevin Cloud: My process has changed from project to project.
I used DeluxePaint for years. We didn't have an animation program. So we tested our animations by toggling between the page and spare page.
For DOOM we sculpted and scanned.
[snipped doom stuff...]
With Quake, I picked up Alias's PowerAnimator to create and animate the models. Adrian did an excellent job creating the skins and in the end they turned out pretty good. Compared to today's games the models and textures in Quake look pretty crude, but in the end I was proud of the work. In my opinion Quake's art was far superior to the work we had created for DOOM.
This should settle the shit.
"Adrian is tall, with long brown hair, a goatee, and a soft Southern accent. Sitting next to his partner Kevin Cloud, he clicks his lightpen all day long, making minuscule adjustments, one pixel at a time, to countless texture tiles: lichened stone, pitted wood, corroded metal, viny corpuscular stuff. This monotonous detail work is the foundation of Quake's environments, giving level architects an extensive index of patterns and textures to draw from as they construct interiors. Adrian's pencil drawings of Quake's monsters are beautifully detailed. The game's relatively low resolution barely conveys his sinister sketches. Of course, there's little time to appreciate the aesthetics of creatures whose only aim is to destroy you."
Word. Quake is eternal.
Good Find, I Remember That Issue
Ponderous wooden doors swung open with an incongruous pneumatic hiss instantly recognizable from Doom
I know that sound! Though, I always thought it sounded similar to doors opening on the Starship Enterprise.
made of wood always remind me of Myst/Riven. Having read the books of Myst only helps to reinforce that notion.
Quake is fine as it is. leave it be! :D
Are You Proposing
that id sponsored a team to make quake V for the original quake engine?
Hmm. How nice.
Maybe there could be a shadow "QV" project with 4 grand episodes in the making... wait, there are such already like Nehahra. But a more high-profile recent more kind of a quake-vee-ey thing? A bit like doom2 was for doom? What slight texture, model and client updates? Who could be the taste judge?
To Resurrect Another Old Thread...
I think the thing that made Quake unique WAS the sense of no explanation. Quake had a severely powerful sense of place, a sense of weirdness, that would never be conveyed if the game slowed down and zoomed in on some boss monster who made a cut-scene speech to the player character (Prince of Persia style, or some other new game, etc).
Quake worked because it was a combination of three influences: attempted fantasy RPG, attempted update on DOOM, attempted Lovecraftian mood piece. The sense of being an anonymous killer in an anonymous, unknown, unearthly world - that's what Quake's all about, and what has made all the custom maps for all these years all so playable and so good. The Quake Guy could be a space marine fighting robots. He could be a godlike savior destroying degenerate beasts, or a demonic destroyer dismantling the world of men. He could be involved in some kind of struggle between demons (Vondur's Koohoo), or a pawn of higher forces (as masterfully stated in Nehahra). The point is there is no real answer as to who he is, or as to why he is where he is. Imagine waking up in a fucked up world with only an axe, and walking around the corner and seeing an Ogre (in real life graphics of course). And you'd kill the Ogre first, survive that, but imagine if this world never ended. And your only existence, with possibly no ultimate goal or meaning at all, was just to kill those other lurking things out there, before they killed you. After all, after at least 1,000 Quake levels it's impossible to say when the anonymous player has ever reached the finish line.
As the Doom Marine said, "Where's my fat reward and ticket home????"
After all, after at least 1,000 Quake levels it's impossible to say when the anonymous player has ever reached the finish line.
Some say he came close in the interval between Bastion and Marcher, reaching the outer northern steppes after breaching one of the larger of Quake's netherworld garrisons, but then the Gaurochs used long distance telepathy or some shit to mess with his head and drove him into the mountains so it was back to square one lmbo.
QUAKE FIVE BRAINSTORMIN
Quake 5 (five) will be...
in a fantasy setting
with cartoonish style
and maybe an anime tilt
with emphasis on social interraction (ala 2nd life)
and on Wii
Quake5 Will Be
uniquely textured on every polygon of the world
3 years late, 3 hours long, and dull
You seem like, just perhaps, you have a negative attitude upon occasion.
Well, what choice do you have when you grow up in a frozen region where one only sees the sun at most 1 month of the year? He even grew resentful of those living in the sunny south, proving this by hating his time in Savannah. All this is rather reminiscent of the Morlocks, really.
So he had but one choice: become a cynic, or a Russian. And because of the sentiments toward communism at his birth, there really wasn't even a choice.
yeah ... I should do something about that.
could only happen if iD made a couple of games that weren't received well, and realized that they needed to make something just as innovative as the original quake
I'm still up for a Q5 TC for Doom 3, or, even better, Prey. PLLEEEEASSSSSEEE????
I think Source would be a better engine.
The Doom 3/Prey engine has shiny, plastic-like crap everywhere which is a visual blight that I've yet to see anybody adequately overcome.
Edit: That said, Quake Wars does seem to have removed the shineyness and looks a lot better for it, so that would be a great Quake to mod. It'd allow for some truly immense hell-bastions as well.
I think Source would be a better engine.
The Doom 3/Prey engine has shiny, plastic-like crap everywhere which is a visual blight that I've yet to see anybody adequately overcome.
Or you could just, you know, make new materials that aren't supposed to be simulating shiny metal or plastic in the first place.
Can You? I Don't Know
because I've never seen it done, even by people who've tried to simulate bricks.
They Can't Have Tried Too Hard
Turning down the spec is hardly difficult. Authoring decent materials is, though.
Having said that, I also far prefer the look of source. Realtime lighting is simply too ugly and limited to match the precomputed methods.
Unreal Engine 3
would like a word with you, if Gears of War is anything to go by (hint: it is)
it would just be sick and perverse to develop a Quake game on Unreal technology. :P
was Quake really that good or exceptional or innovative??
Some aspects I really liked, like many nice textures and the nimbleness of the hero. But overall Doom was more compelling as a single player experience.
Was the environment of quake really that special?.. I don't know. Maybe it isn't so relevant.
post scriptum to lun: at least you have a point in your negativisms, it isn't just some pure emo.
One thing I really love in Quake is the movement/feeling/"physics". It's easy to learn, feels 100% fast and immediate, and yet offers so much to learn and improve (for speedrunning things).
i think one of the things that makes the q1 single player experience special is that, somehow, it convincingly pulled off a wide variety of different environments -- and had a simple yet compelling explanation as to why they were that way.
compared to modern games, quake map styles (in the original game) changed suddenly, and got continually more evil as the game progressed. maybe, to force some reinvention, we just need to destroy the base and temple stereotypes...?
it would just be sick and perverse to develop a Quake game on Unreal technology. :P
Yes, but wouldn't it feel naughty?
Oh so deliciously naughty
If Quake 3 was part of the Quake series while just being pure dm, I think Quake Wars has just as much right to be part of the series so aren't we really discussion Quake 6 here?
Zwif: I think Hexum has an awesome looking d3 level somewhere on Doom3World where he is making a Quake style project. Looks great. There is another Quake in Doom 3 project around there somewhere as well if you are really interested.
Well, the name is largely irrelevant; we are talking about a remake (or a sequel in the same "universe") as the original. Perhaps we could call our hypothetical game "Quake: The Brownening" from now on, as it doesn't invalidate any of the points in this discussion.
HeadThump: I take exception to your baseless accusation.
maybe I should be careful whom I taunt; the last guy I called a fancylad for wearing a leapord skin cap with a matching coat turned out to be a pimp. It did not go down as bad as the encounter with a pirate though. Apparently, the unedited lyrics to the old chante goes:
"What do we do with a drunken sailor,
Tie him to the mast and cornhole him later.'
But But But
If you tie all the sailors to the mast, who will navigate the ship?
That Is What These Fellas Are For
we have talking crows for gamedesingers
I don't know why ID software games are so good.
Maybe because they have something satanic in them.
The original QUAKE was my first love!
Quake2 was a piece of shit
Quake3 brought a little refresment to the genre
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