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Screenshots & Betas
This is the place to post screenshots of your upcoming masterpiece and get criticism, or just have people implore you to finish it. You should also use this thread to post beta versions of your maps.

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It's rubicon fever!?

I've got a bsp2 map + mod that's maybe a month from completion.

A handful of new monsters and a few new features like Pineapple's entity randomiser.

I even considered trying to form a cabal at one point to make a rubicon map pack but didn't think anyone would want in.

Mfx / Gb / Pineapple / Vigil - what do you say?

Once more unto the breach? 
I have i pretty cool start map by now (screenshot), left over from speedmapping attempt:)
Dunno if i�m encouraged enough to make another tech/industrial map. 
Can Be The Start Map 
What about you as well? 
Hell Yeah 
Rubicon map pack; count me in. I need someone to collab with on this map though, more specifically a person that roughly blocks out the rest of the map, taking a few ideas into account. I'll take it from there then. 
Forgot To Mention 
This map probably also needs BSP2, so I suggest we pick an engine that can do it (both variants, since I'm gonna use the 2PSB toolchain) and ship the pack with that. FTE / Darkplaces? 
I'm using two engines, Spike's modified Quakespasm and one made by Tyrann. I can send those out Monday.

You'll be happy to know I'm working in Trenchbroom as well, so no problems with map formats. 
Content Owner Not Bla Blah 
Fuck apple!

...but the hardware works at least....

Most of the time 
your censorship is different from mine? Modern times! 
awesome a rubicon episode just like that! 
I guess negke is now in charge of the level bits that vigil and I worked on (he was given them today on irc at the least)

I'm not going to do anything more myself, sorry, got other projects I want to work on 
Depending When Its Required 
I might be able to contribute a gussied up version of one or two of my JF2 themed speedmaps... Maybe if I merged them all together... When would you guys actually get around to doing this? 
Thanks for the feedback guys. It wasn't received to well so I'm going to rework this.

JPL: In GTKRadiant it's jsut a matter of clicking shift + S and selecting natural.

It's Quake 3 btw.

I love those Rubicon shots guys. Very inspirational. 
My one needs about a month more - we can make a cutoff point around whatever people's projects are.

I'm AFK until Monday, once I'm back I'll send out the Dropbox link with the modded content to the interested parties.

Negke, you in? 
Look Like It's Contagious! 
Some shots from a map I are working on for 1 month or two.

Don't know if I want to change all the entities, thats a lot of work. I'm using Quoth atm.
Anyway I think this will be a BSP2 map as well.

But good luck with your projects!

Go to: 
Hell yeah! 
holy hell1! 
I think mine could be finished in a few weeks, but may I humbly suggest a deadline of "when it's done"? If one or two maps take longer to finish, then the rest of the gang could just chip in and help those. Like, actual collaboration.

We shouldn't grieve over missed deadlines the way Base Pack did... 
I'm coming down the home stretch for this semester so mid Dec would be much better for me...

AND HOLY SHIT! Hrim, that looks fucking awesome. 
Holy Crap Hrimfaxi 
That looks great. You're also using one of the generator models I've got :)

I'm easy on deadlines. And whoever finishes first can help the others - there's always more that can be polished and improved. 
Nice Slipgate! 
Is That A Mech From Malice In Shot 5... 
Loving it man! 
Rubicon is getting some love lately. 
Yeah! That model are from Malice (I think).
I'm using it as an replacement model for the flak Ogre. I think it looks more like a base monster than the Ogre does.
It may change under the rest of the process though! 
Looking For A Few Testers 
for my upcoming single player map that's going to be released, eventually. A note to everyone that this future map(s) will be of the bsp2 format, so the RMQ engine or any engine that fully supports bsp2 is going to be a requirement.

If you are interested in doing some beta testing, let me know :) 
@Orl : Is QuakeSpasm supporting the bsp2 format ? 
Not Officially 
Although Spike did a quick fix to enable it. Don't have it to hand just now... 
Nobody Wants To Beta Test? 
Then I don't want to hear any complaints when the map is released about not being playtested enough, since no one wants to volunteer ;) 
Beta Test 
I would like to beta-test it, but I'm on QuakeSpasm, OS X. 
Too busy :( 
Beta Test 
I'll try it out. Email it. Include a link to the engine I need to use. 
I Would, But RMQ Doesn't Work... 
on my surface.

I don't like missing out on maps, even this I will miss on release which is a bummer. 
The FMV version that Spike hacked bsp2 support into is here:

Haven't tried it myself yet though.

For actually beta-testing a map, I expect you'd want players to use the engine that it will actually be played in on release, but RMQ is a bit of a tough sell for the general Quaking public...

ANYway, I can give it a try this weekend in whatever engine you want. If there's some particular build of RMQ that is necessary please be specific about which one and where to get it. 
I Suppose What I Could Do 
Is release a trimmed down version of the map alongside the RMQ version of it, since RMQ doesn't seem to be a very popular choice here. It would have the exact layout and gameplay, but the many details would be either simplified, or removed completely to accommodate Quake's BSP limit.

It may result it the map looking somewhat plain and dull, but it would at least be playable in any Quake engine. 
Don't do that! 
Don't Strip It On Account Of My Pc 
I actually used RMQ as a main engine until I upgraded and now it wont work. 
I can betatest this weekend, if you want one more person :-) 
Too Busy 
what I would suggest is that be specific about which build of RMQ you tested it with and recommend.

Tronyn's map worked fine once you played it with the proper RMQ build but there was a lot of trial and error until people found the right version of RMQ to play it with.

ps : I dont think you should do a stripped down version. 
better cut in two, so we have a mini episode enjoyable in Fitz:) 
Just Use 
The Quakespasm hack that Spike made and was posted above by Johnny Law...

RMQ was just a forked version of fitz. It had some some to handle lights and rendering better... plus some effects that everyone whinged about before turning off. 
Also support BSP2 / 2PSB.

Not sure if these are considered faithful enough though.

The resistance to the BSP2 format seems to be 'I don't like big maps'.

Which I don't understand - it seems a shame since what many mappers want to do is push the boundries. One way of doing this is to extend the 1996 limitations - which has been sneaking into custom content for years anyway.

Remember when skyboxes were introduced?

The content of a map (good or bad) != map format. 
Yeah, I Don't Like Big Maps 
But I can understand why people exceed the normal limits at times.

I can't offer to do a thorough beta test because I have a map of my own that I'm desperately trying to finish this year and I just don't think I have time. I could give it a play through and offer any comments though. 
plus some effects that everyone whinged about before turning off.

I still can't turn off interpolation. 
</brick To Back Of Head> 
Isn't that just one of the standard fitz commands? 
Which Engine To Use 
The RMQ engine that I have been using for testing is version 0.85.3, dated December 28th 2011. The latest build of RMQ presents unusual problems such as grenades falling through solid floors and monsters getting stuck in places they shouldn't. I may just include 0.85.3 of RMQ with the map release, so there's no confusion of what RMQ engine to use.

I tested the map with Darkplaces, and it runs fine but there are certain essentials items that disappear from the map, as well as alpha textures not being supported.

FTE will load the map, but about 30 seconds in will crash, I'm not certain why.

@mfx The map is actually already split in two, that's how large it is :)

Fitzquake_mark_v_bsp2 unfortunately doesn't load the map at all, it returns with an error of mod_loadleafs 34703 exceeds limit of 32767. I'm assuming that this could be an easy fix.

To those concerned about the map being too big, I can say right now its not THAT big, maybe only 20 minutes for the first part of the map. It's size is massive, but the actual play area isn't too big, to the point where I'm certain you won't be able to get lost.

And I won't make a stripped down version of the map ;) 
Not in MH's Genius Engine 10.0, no, 
Big Maps Are So Last Year 
hubQuake is the new thang. 
yeah that sounds like a good idea. 
Can't Figure This One Out 
I had an idea, but when I went to build it things didn't work the way I thought they would.

The idea was to spawn a bunch of monsters, in a stack, inside a tall skinny box. I put a teleport brush in the bottom of the box. The teleport is triggered once every 4 seconds by a string of relays.

I expected the stack of monsters to fall every time the bottom monster was ported out, but no. In addition, not all the monsters would drop on top of the one below it when initially spawned. Some would just hang in mid air, at their original spawn point (I had them spaced with 128 units apart vertically). 
I haven't bothered to test this one, but it might just work...

Try adding a trigger_monsterjump with speed 1 and angle pointing down to cover all four monsters. Also place them closer together so it doesn't matter if they don't drop to the floor initially. 
What Engine? 
Oops, Thought I Was In The Mapping Help Thread 
I'm using Fitzquake 0.85, it's all I ever use.

A trigger_monsterjump will probably work, but I was trying to minimize the number of models required. I was able to get the monsters to fall correctly by activating them with another relay. Once they start moving they fall as they should. Pre-activating them this way is less than desirable though.

The way I had this working before, all the monsters spawned on a long, sideways moving door. There were small walls between them to keep them separated and to keep them from moving with the door. As the door slowly slid out from under them, they would fall into the teleport.

This worked, but the timing was hard to get right due to the different sizes of the monster bounding boxes, and I was trying to get rid of the door to free up another model.

I have gone back to using a door to move the monsters. This time the door consists of 4 brushes sized 64x64x8 (one brush per monster 8 units below each) moving downwards. The monsters correctly fall onto their section of door when spawned. Once activated, the door lowers them into the teleport brush.

The timing is more deterministic this way, so even though I haven't freed up any models, that is an improvement anyway.

I still don't understand why the monsters don't want to fall correctly.

In order to stay on topic, here is a screenshot: 
You Can 
trigger a teleporter. If you give it a targetname it won't do anything until called.

Would mean making a single teleport per monster though, so not particularly helpful for reducing entity count.

That map looks badass. 
That Screenshot 
looks very promising Rick! 
from dat shot perspective the map itself looks a bit dull , in kind of texture set

that rune texture(red-ish) added here and there would do the job 
Looks Awesome! 
Looks Grrrrreat! 


I've got an important message for you...

If you don't break up the textures on the wall more, it might slightly suck, David Cameron's a whore.

But seriously though, it looks really cool, love the tone. 
How in the world do you guys see anything in that screen shot? From that distance and with all that fog I think you can assume that whatever detail there is can't be seen.

It is a little on the monochrome side - that's intentional. There was more color six months ago but people said it didn't fit in or something. Whatever it looks like now is how it stays. I have no desire to make those kind of changes.

Yesterday I wasted hours trying to figure out why monsters didn't fall when spawned. Today I added the new teleporter system (that I finally got working right). To do that I had to change one room from short and wide to tall and skinny, deleted 12 unnecessary spacer brushes and I replaced a door that was using about 50 tris with one that used only 24 and when I compiled the map the marksurfaces count went from 32029 to over 32800. So I've spent the last couple of hours fixing that.

Does anybody know if there's a way to keep Netradiant from renaming all the target/targetnames when you copy and paste? 
we get the GIST of it Rick - gothic cathedral-like outdoor architecture, indoor Runic areas lit with oldschool spotlights, and lava! How could we not think that's sweet?

As for the technical side I'm pretty useless (other than bothering people who know what they're doing), but I'm sure someone useful will come along soon. 
I remember the moaning about the yellow lights,
and now people want it back. I like the look now,
monochrome or not.

People are strange.

As for the NetRadiant issue, i have no clue... 
Ah, Yes 
the infamous yellow lights and the big red window.

I did tone the lights down a little. 
Looks Great 
just great... 
So Great 
That Is Phenomenal Looking 
Drew on earth?
Maybe the Pugin comparison is cliched and cheesy... but yeah. 
I had added this room about a year ago. It's a pretty important room, but I was never really happy with how it looked. This is an old screenshot from before I did the re-texturing.

Old Room

I worked on it a lot last week end and I think it's looking better. Probably still needs some lighting tweaks.

New room

Different view 
That Outside Screenshot 
is phenomenal!

And yes new room looks better but lighting could be less flat. 
Hahaha Fuck Off. 
I meant neoclassical as in new school quake w old school sensibilities and etc. 
(not Mad) 
new room looks MUCH better with the texturing. those windows and bricks are great. the outdoor spires are fantastic. just be careful not to make it TOO dark. 
damn sorry Drew seems like I over-interpreted things again, as I always do.

New version of the room is a lot better, everything seems way more considered and detailed, including lighting and texturing.

/Eschews gothic label 
Drew U Mad As FUCK!!! 
I think the bricks look kind of small in relation to the huge scale of the room. I'd prefer if at least some parts of them could be bigger for a more 32ish style similar to the previous metal4_4 style. 
Grim And Unholy 
Which is good. The new one looks better because the textures break up the flat areas of the previous one better.

Is there an altar in the middle? 
Looks Great. 
Keep going with it. 
Oh Oh Oh 
Looks very interesting indeed.. neo-gothik / medieval maps are always cool :)

Go finish this ! 
Grim And Unholy 

I keep hearing this in my head every time I see one of those screenshots. 
Looks pretty good.

I think I prefer maps with a higher contrast of light/dark lighting. Also I thing I would personally avoid large flat walls and break them up with detailing with protrusions or texture changes. 
large flat walls

Honestly, what do you mean? There are not any of what I would consider large flat walls in any of those last few screen shots. There are some that are pretty tall though. I wonder if it's something about the angle the screen shot was taken at?

Here's an overhead view with an exaggerated fov. I didn't change brightness or contrast from the original, just converted it to jpg so I may look a little dark. 
dont let them distract you! 
You Could Break It Up Vertically 
If the walls aren't the same thickness at every height. You can make these transitiones in two ways - with a 'step', i.e. the wall suddenly gets X units thicker, with a perpendicular step, or with a slope. This is true of much architecture because the foundations need to be strong enough to support all of the weight above it.

Either way, it's a nice way of adding a whole other dimension to your architecture.

You could add some damage detail to the architecture too, maybe a few cracked tiles, , bricks out of place or missing etc.

Overall I think the shots look pretty awesome, just thinking of elements that you could take more advantage of. 
IMO I Think The Aesthetic Works Well As It Is 
It doesn't require gussying up. It has a nice stark balance and subtle detailing. In the shots I've seen, I'd consider that aspect of the map 'done'. 
You realise the map is already bursting at the seams with marksurfaces? 
What you've got is good. Finish it as you see fit.

Float walls refers to not using geometry (brushes) to make the light map do the work of making a space interesting. But with all the work you've put into the light it's not a mistake you've made. Don't go into pre-release worry.

We've only seen screenshots! 
Ie Flat Walls, Not Float 
Ie Flat Walls, Not Float 

dont let them distract you!

Not much chance of that. The reason is because I intend to stay within the normal Quake Engine map limits.

onetruepurple is correct, the map is bursting at the seams with marksurfaces

What this means is that the geometry of the map is pretty much finished, with no chance at all of any major changes being made.
The map is currently bouncing around 32000 marksurfaces, which is what causes me the most problems. Most of the time at this point, just adding a brush or two will cause QBSP to go insane and the marksurfaces will jump by hundreds and go over the limit. I've found ways of getting around that, but sooner or later I know I'll hit a wall.
I basically have to fight tooth and nail just to make small changes to the brushwork and not go over 32767 marksurfaces.

There is also a 256 model limit. I have 255 at the moment. If I add just one more Fitzquake gives me a mean old message that 256 models exceeds the 256 model limit.

It doesn't actually, but I will keep it at 255.

As of yesterday, I still have six "place holder" func_walls in the map left to play with.

I'm still kind of struggling to understand the various comments referring to flat lighting, large flat walls, small brick textures, and so on.

It's pretty hard to move along any wall, anywhere in the map for more than 128 units without something changing.

I really appreciate these comments. I think about what you guys have said along these lines quite a bit and give these comments much consideration, but when I play the map I just don't see it.

Somehow, I think the screen shots are failing me.

And if you really think this map has a problem with large, featureless walls, covered by a small brick texture with flat lighting, I have three words for you:

"Honey by CZG".

Yes, I am just teasing you there.

Yesterday, I worked mostly on the lighting in this room. It's a fairly important area that the player will pass through more than once.

What do you think? 
Remember: qbsp splits large surfaces every 224 units anyway. This can be used to your advantage.

Brush models and marksurfaces: This may or may not be helpful in your situation or the context of the map, but you can 'clone' existing brush models and turn them into functional entities (provided they are on the same rotation and light level as the originals). If there are identical bmodels used on several occasions, you can make one actual brush-based template and use it elsewhere as point entities. 
The screenshots are cool. Though I think I would consider using some vertical trim with seams on the sides inside the window frames. 
I like the screenshots a lot! Being overly anal about details that no player really notices can make a map worse.

Your windows on those 2 screenshots could have a stronger light emitting from them, leaving a pattern (just a cone) on the bridge. I think it looks completely fine as it is though. 
I can see a lot of work has gone into the trims and such already, I think maybe it's the contrast between the trims and the main texture that isn't different enough.
Let's be honest, the map still looks very nice and this is purely a stylistic suggestion on my part. There's nothing wrong with saying "this is my map and I want it to look like this". 
I was just elaborating on what could be meant by 'breaking up large walls'. The map does look really nice! I love those arches, and the mood of the lighting, in the shots.

Negke is right about the marksurfaces thing, but I know what it's like to be surfing the limits, and you get the map to compile nicely, why fuck with it at that point, when it's already looking really nice.

TBH it looks pretty decent to me man, go with your heart :) 
I'm Loving 
every shot you've put up so far. 
Well they are quite flat walls. But lots of popular mappers like czg have quite plain walls. I always try to pack as much detail into walls as possible, but then I could never make any of my levels very big. That's the trade-off of putting in lots of detail. Players prefer bigger levels over lots of fine detail. 
you can make one actual brush-based template and use it elsewhere as point entities

Negke, can you (or anybody) explain how exactly to do this? It's something I could possibly use in a couple of places.

There were some brushes that absolutely had to be changed and when I fixed them it blew the marksurfaces over the limit again. 
You can first try this: open the map file in a text editor and move all recently-added brushes (the ones after which the limit was exceeded) higher up, preferably to where the older brushes in the particular area are. This can arbitrarily lower the marksurfaces again.

The template trick is essentially a modelindex hack. You can look it up in (available on my site), it's used for the light sources and ammo pickups.
The original ("template") entity is a brush-based info_notnull located at 0 0 0. While this location isn't absolutely necessary, I wouldn't put it elsewhere because then it'd make placing the clones a pain in the ass. It's also lit there. I strongly recommend moving it up in the .map so it's the very first entity after worldspawn for easier reference. To save an edict, remove it on mapstart with "think" "SUB_Remove" or killtarget.

Then you can put point info_notnulls where you want the clones to appear and give them the corresponding values of the template, e.g.

"model" "*1"
"modelindex" "2"

This will create nonsolid copies of the original brush model which do not add to the model limit but take up an edict slot. They can be rotated, too.
It's possible to further modify their 'state', so to speak. For example, you can make them solid or turn them into static entities (=no edict) by adding "think" "func_wall" or "func_illusionary" and "nextthink" "0.1". However, this will override any custom rotation! 
Cool Trick 
I tried to do a similar thing with func_doors through qc. It even worked as well, after Preach explained some of the nuances of collision generation.

Nobody cared though. 
Okay, Thanks 
I may have to give that a try. It's a bit more complex than I thought it would be, but it could prove to be useful. Thanks for the explanation.

As far as moving brushes in the .map file to reduce marksurfaces, I've never tried that. However, my usual trick is to copy a large group of brushes that are near each other, delete them, save the map, then paste the brushes back in. I've always assumed that this is also moving the brushes around in the .map file. At any rate, it will often reduce the marksurfaces by several hundred.

I only do this when BSP goes crazy and ups the marksurfaces by a huge amount when some insignificant change was made. I don't worry about it when the change in marksurfaces seems reasonably proportionate the whatever change I've made in the map. 
I Cared! 
That was cool. It's also the kind of thing "external model" support in Quoth is meant to help with. Currently having an actual external file is a bit cumbersome to install (and to delete when the map is finished though), so it's a bit of a hard sell to get working.

One potential solution could be to create an "internaliser" tool, which would operate on your base bsp file. It would look for all your entities which reference an external bsp file, load that external file, and bake them into the bsp as an internal model. In effect, it's formalising negke's entity hack above, but in a way that doesn't require fiddling with brush order to get it working. Plus because you created the external model independently, you've got the freedom to light it without the rest of the map interfering, and easily set the rotation centre.

There is a second solution to the loose file difficulty, but I'm afraid I'm not yet at liberty to say...Or I'd just really like to see the internaliser become reality so I've got to sell it to someone with the bsp know-how. 
Sounds Like The 
Bsp referencing compartmentalised sections of itself... 
The Func_door_model 
Was just idle experimentation really. Whilst I tip my hat to those who struggle to colour within the lines of bsp1 limits, I decided not to bother with it.

The internalizer you mention in fact sounds something like the skip utility, which moved brush face around so they wouldn't be visible. 
More Screenshots Please! 
Thank you! 
<@sock> someone should re-work them into maps with vanilla gameplay 
Some Very Nice Maps In There... 
Too bad there aren't much monsters to fight, in these giant maps.

I guess I'll have to play them with the DMSP mod. 
Finish Them! 
Oh lord these maps look great. I can't believe these are sitting around unfinished. None of my scrap levels are anywhere near this kind of quality or completion (I usually rough out a couple of rooms, you seem to make entire maps!) 
Why The Cruelty ? 
Those superb maps doesn't do anything with the DMSP mod. WTF !?

Why, O why Lord !? The b1blue, b1office and b1rocks are so cool, why not finish'em ?? 
At A Guess 
There are no info_player_deathmatch entities... 
There are no deathmatch starts in those maps, which is why they won't work with dmsp. The map files are there though, so I guess it'd be fairly quick to throw some in and -onlyents compile. 
Just Started 
Extending Daikatana mainmenu graphics for widescreen support. Fun! 
If there's one thing I loved about Daikatana it was the texture-work. So rich and detailed. 
Can somebody do a hack of Daikatana to make those two side kicks Invulnerable? 
Pixel Life 
Brushwork Looks Ace 
but those yellow windows, i don�t know. 
I like it, very quaint. Almost thief-like in some respects.

Not everything has to be some outrageous structure. 
Lots Of Character 
I'm kind of surprised since I usually love the yellow windows, but I agree with mfx. They don't look bad but maybe a more toned down intensity or different colour would be better? Might be worth tinkering with.

Such a minor thing, but of course it's hard to find serious flaws with your shots. 
Rubicon Revisited 
/me Likes 
Rubicon Is Woefully Underused. 
I love it btw, very nice. 
Use More Floyds! 
2014, year of the rubicon. 
City Blocks 
I don't think the windows are too yellow, I think they are lit too brightly.

I can see a shadow on the ground, which gives me a light source, and the walls around the windows are lit but it cannot be coming from that same light source.

So if it were me, but it's not, I would either reduce the Light or move the light closer to the window so there is less 'overspill'.

Other than that, very pretty. 
Yes To Both Shots. 
I like it Sock, very fresh! Which is hard enough to do in Quake. As been said, the yellow windows steal a bit too much attention, although I like their contribution to the color palette. Maybe having some yellow oil lamps on the walls could be an interesting idea to have in certain areas, to get some variation from the usual torches.

Also, the stone wall above the stucco (?) housing seems like to heavy a structure to be on top of those.

I'm kind of hoping this'll start a trend for some Tuscan/Venetian village like maps :P 
The Yellow Window Light 
Looks fine to me, although that kind of bleeding makes me think it'd be better in a twilight / early evening setting.

A darker sky and some very mild dark blue fog...

Random idea, and we all love spouting those off.

Village maps are great. 
Pale Blue Dot 
A quiet stroll in the light of the moon. 
ooooooomph... that is sexy. 
So this is a 'Towne' style map?
I can't stop looking at this shot... 
beautiful shot
the blue sky with yellow windows contrast works well, the first shot seems too overpoweringly yellow with both windows and sky 
that is indeed pretty faultless. 
Don't forget the ambient sounds :) 
That made me feel some activity in the trouser region. 
'The Trouser Region' 
Would be a great map name. 
Kinn's Netherrealm 
The question is: on which side? 
always the left 
Most Likely 
definitely, in Kinn case it would've been both sides 
Great Shots Btw 
sock for president 
I Wasn't Sure How To Interpres Negke's Post 
as a left-right or front-back kinda thing 
interpres = interpret, duh 
Sir Dresses To The Right 
if one must know. 
Excellent work sock and mfx! 
Trouser activity is measured in either front or back occurence and evaluated by the implications each side brings with it in context. Spatial orientation is largely irrelevant in this respect. 
Doesn't this equally depend on locality and the coordinate system used? e.g. Your orientation might no be straight from 2 colluding sets of post-2-lates. 
Looped Around... 
...and up the rear. 
Speed Map Theme 
Shambler Wins. 
Ever since 1997. 
AAaargh ! 
I'm already erected !

When will you release that shit ? 
I like your stuff, sock, but I really wish you'd change your lighting style when it comes to those yellow inset windows. The light would in no way be able to hit the walls like that and it just looks ... weird. 
Random Idea 
This probably wouldn't work, but could an info_notnull with effects 8 produce a fake volumetric glow for the window effect?

Hm. Even if not, might be useful for marking buttons or other stuff, will have to give it a try. 
Agree With Willem 
The shot looks great, but the yellow windows just look weird and out of place... 
blue sky feels a bit too saturated to me, but otherwise it's excellent 
I like the windows :) 
Me Too 
but I think they would be better if they were a bit more orangy like the one on the left? opinions opinions... 
Don't Mind The Window 
But don't ever ever fuck with the skybox. 
Looks very nice. I also have to agree with a couple of comments.

I think the upper square window has too much of a greenish tint, more to the orange side would look better I think. And the way the light from it illuminates the surrounding wall is a little unnatural looking. That light would have to be reflected back onto the wall and there is nothing there to do the reflecting. 
Had PS Open, So 
What I had in mind...


About the lights being unnatural, I think the windows would stick out much more without them.
It's okay to sacrifice realism for improved local contrast, imo. Plus you need some kind of light source for lighting those parts anyway.
Doesn't bother me much. 
mfx and sock awesome pics, can't wait to play then! 
Windows are fine, that sort of unnatural spilling I think is fine in Quake 
Oh Lawd... 
is that a remake of e2m1? (I got that impression, or at least an e2-ish impression, from the moat/drawbridge type setup).
Looks amazing. Extremely atmospheric.

ps, I always light windows like that. if it's inside the light must be coming from outside, if it's outside the light must be coming from inside, heh. 
I guess what hits me wrong there is not necessarily that it's physically inaccurate but more that it makes it plainly obvious that there's a spherical light source sitting in front of the window. I dunno ... I'll shut up. :) 
I agree with willem, FWIW

The current technique would probably be fine if the light was more subtle. Currently it's bright enough that it has my brain looking for a source. Dimmer and I might accept it as general ambient lighting bounced from somwhere else. 
nope i like the blue sky over that dull grey. adds contrasting colour and is unique. 
I think it's the fact that the sky is the only thing in the scene with that color. When compositing a scene you need to repeat the main hues in several locations in a scene or it might look off. Ditto for the windows actually. It doesn't need to be as bright or saturated either, just repeating a certain set of hues already helps a lot. I tried to tone it down to bring it more in line with the rest of the scene, but ideally there should be other things in the set that share the color palette. 
Better Links 
Shot 1 Shot 2

Looks like a lot of rubicon stuff in the works. :) 
be sure, there is. 
That last shot owns! 
Thanks OTP 
Too Cheesy? 
or not?

Not Really 
But it's kind of flat, and in more way than one. The lighting could be a bit more dramatic, surely, and perhaps sink the middle of the floor, a bit? 
An Attempt To Pack In As Much Detail As Possible. 
I have been wondering how much detail you can pack in to a map before things start to break. I got to this point when I started seeing wandering vertices and degradation. 
How about a spotlight above the pentagram so it casts it's shadow on the floor?

5th, nice stuff, but it's a bit bright - some shadows would help. 
That's an editor shot ijed. 
Need A Bigger Tablet... 
And trenchbroom needs a lighting preview!

Also, I'll post some proper shots of mine (with proper links as well) soon. 
I feel like the gate and teleporter are too small for the scale of that room. Perhaps just making the gate larger would do it.

Otherwise, yeah it's cheesy, but such is Quake amirite 
Yeah, the lighting in that room needs work, that's why I'm looking at it. The floor could be less flat also, don't know if my marksurfaces can handle that though.

How about a spotlight above the pentagram</>

There already is one, but it's turned off in that shot.

the gate and teleporter are too small

I'm pretty sure it just looks that way because of the angle you are seeing it at and partly because I kicked the fov up to 100 just for that shot. The actual distance between the gate and the teleporter is over 800 units. Both the gate and the teleporter are pretty large, 192x192 I think. 
mfx: i love the super tall hallway in the right side of your second shot. more of that please! 
I decided to register since i'm becoming interested with this community. also, screenies: 
"How about a spotlight above the pentagram so it casts it's shadow on the floor?"

That pentagram is way too high to get a crisp looking shadow out of it.

I've found that if you use a func_detail brush (so no vis or r_vis hit) along with a skip texture (so the player never sees it) and then place it where the player can't get to it (and that there's never going to be an enemy above the player) that you can make some very detailed shadows in tall spaces like that 
That'll allow for a crisp shadow, but another way might be to have the pentagram purposely distorted; going up the walls and so on. Although I suspect that wouldn't work in that particular room.

I'm thinking of that one room in id1 where for no reason there's a Q shadow on the floor. And of an unreleased custom map that did some similar shadow painting tricks. 
It's kind of hard to see what's in the shots. Screenshots from the game are always dark, usually they need brightening in Photoshop or whatever to leave the contents more visible.

New quoth map in the works? Is it single player? 
Yeah, its a quoth sp in the making. I apologize for the dark screenshots though. 
Don't Worry About It 
And good luck! 
looks moody, but the walls need more detailing or breaking up.

Btw, I could see the shots fine, not too dark at my end. 
"I'm thinking of that one room in id1 where for no reason there's a Q shadow on the floor."

Actually that shadow is the clue for a secret on the back side of the teleporter that it's in front of that leads to the roof, a quad damage and a fiend. (E1M4 I think, maybe E1M5). That one was done using a func_illusionary )or maybe a func_wall) disguised as a sky texture and a solid "Q" shape with a normal texture on it above that (inside a box made up of a sky texture). That was about 2 player heights or so over the floor

What I was describing was for very tall spaces like the one in the screenshot where there is no way to do that and still have a crisp shadow. 
I messed around with this room for a couple of hours today. Never really got it looking much better but did manage to increase the marksurfaces by over 600, so I just gave up for now. I did find out that I can't really change the floor much because there's stuff under it that would be too much trouble to modify.

Here's a shot with the pentagram light "on".

Pentagram Shadow 
is hawt. :D 
Looks Great 
Can't wait to play. 
WTF Did I Just Find 
I have seen those before. My guess may be necros for those since he likes to use doom textures. 
I think those shots are fom tronyn. 

Gonna have to rip off the idea now. But that involves me making a nine point symbol because of... never mind.

Quaketree; yeah I remember. The red castle level with the various types of trap in it. And that's one of my favourite secrets as well. Really sets the tone for good secret hunting "something's not right here..." But it's not just a wonky texture or something. 
yeah those are my shots, I did post them somewhere in this thread... that map is still coming but alas progress is slow. 
That's why it's a wip, what did you expect? :P 
New Project... 
Working on a new thing, calling it "Quake As Id Did"... yep, I stole the idea. So it's QUAID for short. Not sure if I will keep the name tbh. This is about 30% on the first map. The idea is to make something simple, fun and faithful to the original game style.

I could make something more detailed and crazy but I am working a lot and don't have the energy to pour in detail like I did with Deck. This is like a de-stress project. Mapping therapy. I think this would make a good community project but it's just me on it right now :) 
Those look fantastic! Make me really really excited.

(Please add at least some misaligned or badly cut off textures, if only to annoy negke!) 
I honestly thought to myself "you know, if this is going to be exactly like id did then maybe I should screw up the alignment".

I can't bring myself to do it. I have OCD. 
but if it's as id did it, you need to unalign 50% of your textures ;) 
The base maps have terrible alignment issues, the other maps are nowhere near as bad. No idea why that is. 
It must be that Romero was going to go back and put in secret doors for every misaligned texture, but he ran out of time. Yup.

The Thing That I Noticed... 
in DTWID was that in general the weapons, items, secrets and enemy types and counts were pretty much the same in the relative sense of the original id maps that they are supposed to replace. Done entirely differently of course but there were a lot of similar ideas used in different ways. The same goes for D2TWID. I got the feeling that they were going for the same basic game balance but with entirely different layouts.

Just something to keep in mind as you progress. Good luck. 
There will be a progressional feel through maps in the same way here. Most SP maps now are singular experiences with every enemy and weapon appearing. Mine will try and retain that classic feel. 
Minor nitpick regarding the title, rather than calling it "Quake As Id Did", might be neat to be consistent with the Doom releases and call it "Quake The Way Id Did". Makes these projects feel more like a set with a common goal then.

Nice start so far though, have any plans to tackle other themes? 
Looks Sweet 
Rick And Tronyn 
Rick's Pentagram is kicking ass. Especially the shadow on the floor. Nice touch.

Tronyn, those editor shots look sweet! 
More Rubicon2 
Oh, Comme C'est Beau !! 
Really nice shots indeed :) 
Verily! I'm making them chronologically though. This is essentially map 1. I have a few experiments with other themes but my most complete maps so far have been base maps, I need to break the cycle! 
hmmm, i must admit, i'm not a huge fan of rubicon textures. I think it's the lack of colour contrast (everything is that same colour) and those giant blurry bolts around everything like xmas decoration. so it is good to see some other textures mixed in.

ijed your screenies remind me of zerstorer. 
...aren't you color blind Kona? 
Looks like the Rubicon Empire is trying to take over the quake universe.
Also, are those barrel textures in screenshot 3 from half life 2? 
Ijed And Hrimfaxi 
both looking good. 
If you like old school stuff, you'll like this: 
Most of my family are, but not me. Even my sister is, which is rare.

I like rubicon because of its contrast - the red and green. Which are classically the easiest colours to confuse when colour blind.

Rivets like Christmas lights. Argh.

Ok, need to include more red bits and less rivets. 
I kind of agree that the staple textures of the set are all kind of green/rusty/reddish without a huge amount of contrast. (though the red and green do complement each other so be sure to use both.) I think the way to make the set look best is to use enough of the accent colors like the beige concretes and rock walls, the hot red/blue/white light fixtures, blue computer screens, and the liquids/skies. You also need to use enough architectural details, and varied lighting and shadows, to keep things interesting. 
Always found Rubicon textures to be very noisy in terms of detail/luminance. Most of the Id base textures are very flat and simple in comparison (incidentally emphasize lighting more). I think toning down the contrast on the single textures but increasing the color contrast over the range of the entire set would make the scenes appear more appealing. So, reduce variance in micro and increase in macro...

On the other hand it does have it's charm. I like the clunkyness and rawness of it, which is somehow unique to Quake. 
Also, maybe there should be a steam-age Rubicon set to use with the non-base monsters? Could be a fun design challenge. 
Shots look great... but I think you might want to try some alternatives for the brown brick walls. They seem to give everything a busy look and steal attention from the other geometry. 
I've just started adding a bit more variance in the texture set so now is a good time to add distinct areas, ones that don't rely on the bricks as much.

The map needs this; it makes my previous levels look small in comparison. 
#10055 posted by ijed
Hard to tell but looks pretty cool from shots. Maybe a bit boxy in places. Sizeable already which is great.

#10057 posted by mfx
Looks cool, I like the grey tower textures and vertical scale in shot 2. Shot 1 the hazard tex on the grill doesn't look good!

#10062 posted by Rick
Style is very nice as are walls, room a bit empty. Pent is okay but not that interesting.

#10064 posted by FifthElephant
Like it, this is the sort of stuff I do appreciated wandering around a map. I might not notice it when I first go into an area but all that sort of detailing helps.

#10071 posted by RingofQuaddamage
Can't see much but like the swampy atmosphere and torch lighting. Keep it going.

#10088 posted by FifthElephant
Looks very Id and decently done. I would prefer beefing out of designs (doesn't have to be too much) and gameplay compared to Id maps tho.

#10097 posted by ijed
That looks cool, although image quality / pixellation is horrible. Nice variety and designs and nice details.

#10100 posted by Hrimfaxi
Looks good, great detailing in that, especially last shot.

Lots of maps in the works, great stuff, keep it going guys. Have still been loving all the Q1 SP recently. 
Bit Of A Redesign... 
I decided to make a new starting point of my map because I felt that I kinda screwed up or ran out of ideas on the last one. I also experimented with sunlight and sunlight color on this one. Anyways, SCREENIES COMETH! 
pink <3 
Needs Moar Pink! 
Actually, it doesn't. 
Don't Listen To Shambler 
Thank you! :) 
Interestingly, the actual RGB value for the center of the ubiquitous light3_8 texture is 219 195 187, which is a fairly pinkish color.

When I first started putting colored light in Quake maps I tried using that value as the color for light entities associated with that texture, but I decided it was just a little too much color. I now use 255 240 240 for that texture.

Colored lighting is a tricky thing to get looking right in Quake. 
Looks Great 
How upload files to ? I don't have login/pass 

Read the main topic.

Need a place to host your screenshots? Upload them here: (password is ilovetheshubhub) or here: (same password) 
Willem not available. now have new design and require login and password. 
If the quaketastic login hasn't changed recently, it's

Username: quaketastic
Password: ZigguratVertigoBlewTronynsSocksOff 
Johnny Law 
It's worked. Thanks 
The password was changed when the site switched owners. Seems arbitrary and counterproductive, a way to make it even more exclusive. In my view, it would be fine if the login information was stored in an on-site faq or readme.txt in the root folder along with the general rules - so there's only one hurdle involved which is finding the site in the first place. I doubt people would spam it with junk or warez, and if so, action against it could be taken then. 
Make It Take Either 
It Was Kinda An Institution 
* is shub hub down permanently?

* is the quaketastic password going to stay the way it is? (post #10128)?

If so I can edit the thread topic to be more accurate. 
Yeah, password is going to stay like this. is actually up and running, but I haven't installed a script (yet). If there's demand, I will, although I don't really know why we would need to places to store files. 
Due To Demand, And Because I Was Bored 
I improved my speedmap a tad (changed how the last arena is accessed, mainly) and added some eye candy/changed some monsters here and there so they are more efficient. Anyone wanna test it to see if everything works fine before I release it? It's short.

Pictures for the people who didn't play it: 
Lonely Knights

@Skacky, looks sweet :) now I want to make a metal map :D 
I sometimes think to myself how i don't like the metal theme, but then i look at shots like this and change my mind :D 
Multi-reply Time! 
@skacky Looks very nice! what engine are you using in the screenshots?

@sock Beautiful! can't wait to play it tomorrow! 
Looking For A Few Testers... 
This is map 1 of my quake like id did theme. Demos and feedback is what I am looking for. Just email me, in my profile, for the file. 
Nice Shadows 
I have a little advice, some of your lights in your map look a little dull. Sometimes it's a good idea to put a small but very bright light near the actual source... It looks a lot better. 
Too busy at the moment.

But on the subject of lighting, just as an experiment try putting a ball of lights floating in the middle of the room (no source) with key values

light 10
wait 0.25
delay 2

This style of fill lighting should make those flat shapes and sharp edges look a lot more interesting.

You'll probably need to experiment quite a bit though, those values are just off the top of my head. 
That looks properly id-styled. gj 
* Seal Of Approval * 
that reminds me of part of e1m2Quoth by Kell (comes with Quoth IIRC). Sweet stuff :) 
Great Start. 
Strong style already, stick with it. 
That Reminds Me Of Undying 
That Reminds Me Of Undying

The oneiros world 
Not Dead Yet

Not too sure when this will be released as there is still a lot of work to be done, but there's progress. Some of you might remember this map, I posted some pictures here over a year ago or something. Long story short: I axed a large part of the map and remade a lot of stuff from the ground up, and it's a lot better now.

I'm going to release my extended speedmap probably next week btw. 
Sweet, I Think I Remember Those Old Shots 
These ones remind me of "Breakfast at Twilight" in the best way. 
I Remember Those Too 
They look even better than I remembered! 
That Looks Amazing 
looks lovely! 
Nice shots! btw. i liked your (not)speedmap too.
Clean cut, i like that:) 
More Screens Of My In-dev Episode 
So, another angle of map 1...

And I have started work on map 2...

Really going for an episode 1 vibe, I know it looks little "copyright infringement" right now but that's kind of the whole idea, only with better alignment ;) 
@skacky, I love the verticality you have in those shots, I hope you have some monsters patrolling, it will add to the overall ambiance. 
@Fifth: Loving the second shot a lot, the lighting is moody and I'm definitely getting E1M2 vibes from it.

@Skaky: Tons of height variation, scenery shapes and ceiling details is really putting that texture set to good use. Also noticing some similarities in your mapping style from Thief here, which is not a bad thing at all. Considering how tall the map seems, it mostly reminds me of "Between These Dark Walls", is there going to be a lot of climbing involved here? 
Edit: "skacky". I'd die for an edit button. :( 
I'm very impressed with them. You got the theme right too.

The second one looks very good. But i do think that it has more of a vibe of DoE, even though the episode 1 vibe is strong on it.

By the way, those lights have delay 3, don't they?, or is there a light with delay 4 or 5? I thought you were going for full Quake the way Id did. 
Looks Good 
Nice looking screen shots FE.

I would guess delay 2 or 5 on the lighting with maybe some _sunlight? Delay 3 is no attenuation. Delay 4 is "local minlight" and I've never really figured out what that does.

I never used any delay in the past, but I've been doing a lot of re-lighting lately and I'm kinda liking delay 5, as long as the wait is cranked high enough. Delay 1 with low light values can make good fill light as long as there is only one or two in an area. 
quakis, thanks, it's not that difficult for quake to feel moody due to the textures, ease of adding a brush under a flame and the sounds attached to texture volumes (like sky and water). It's fairly quick to get going.

coce, I have used various wait keys on the lights. Not played with delay values actually. I am trying to stay faithful to the feel of the original game but I wouldn't expect it to be exactly the same. Can't say I played a whole lot of the expansions for quake, played them maybe once and though they're good I never returned to them.

Rick, thanks. like I said, just using wait, nothing with delay.

Glad peeps like the shots, I have done a lot to that area now. It's tempting to overdo it but that would stop it being "like id did". 
Very nice. Love the vertical look of it and the attention to detail in the "trim" around the doors, things like that make a level "Pop" and have a sense of being. My only (albeit minor) input would be that the wall lighting sconces could be a bit less of a "Block holding a torch" and maybe a bit more detailed. 
@ FifthElephant 
I like the E1M1 shot. The varying roofline gives it a feeling of depth without looking like it went too far off of the feel of the original level. Keep up the good work. 
@ skacky - looking great, and having see the speedmap, I definitely trust you on consistency and build quality.

@ Fifth - still good but pretty simple, I do like the pure Id theme, although any twists with your own design would be great. 
Thanks For The Kind Words 
@Tronyn: Breakfast is one of my main source of inspiration, especially the amazing outdoor areas.

@quakis: there is some climbing involved but nothing too crazy in terms of sheer height. There is one secret, however, that overlooks a whole area and that is very high up. The verticality is mostly used by monsters such as ogres and death guards to bombard the player from ledges above. Hard/Nightmare is a challenge thanks to them.

@quaketree: these are still work in progress, I'm not really satisfied with the way they look yet. 
Map 2... 
I'm thinking of redoing a lot of what I have done. Here's the screenshots... it feels a bit massive when you're in the map, it's a nice scale but it feels a lot less "id" than map 1. What do you reckon? 
I Reckon 
You lack monsters.


And ambient sounds, maybe. 
Looks good, don't scrap, keep it going. 
Yeah, That As Well 
Looks really promising! 
so were you going for the Oneiros tyle from Undying? Cos it looked promising. 
Kinda like that, but it's loosely based off of the secret area from e1m2quoth, which was included in the pak files. 
how do you take screenshots like that? 
Press "+" ingame until the HUD is gone, and then use r_drawviewmodel 0
Heres my binds for screenshots, you can copy it into your config.

bind "o" "r_drawviewmodel 1;sizedown;sizedown;crosshair 2;echo Screenshot mode off"
bind "p" "r_drawviewmodel 0;sizeup;sizeup;crosshair 0;echo Screenshot mode on"
Looks nice! 
Quoth base enemies in medieval world? No. Unless it's a transition start like E1M2.

Looks good otherwise. 
yesh the big white fluffy monster is right, no base. use tronyns little arrow shooting dudes if you want grunts, they're effectively replacements for the grunt/enforcer. 
actually e1m2quoth had a mix of base and medieval monsters, so I will have to play around with monster types until you guys like it. 
Looking really nice, nice terrain sculpting. Which editor are you using?

Like in e1m2, a few base details (crates and a slipgate) will make the base monsters look at home. 
Re Waterfall Pool 
Bothers me that the waterfall is continually filling the small pool without it overflowing.
Besides that, looks really cool! 
Please keep the base enemies in the medieval setting. It's freaking quake, things don't have to make sense. I don't understand the aversion to mixing themes in a game that's such a thematic mess anyway (and all the better for it!).

And yeah... put a hole in the pool :) 
Looking Good 
The Portal 
But the teleporter textured brush looks a bit weird.

Like the rest of it though, seems a bit cramped maybe? 
Mixing Themes 
I think that mixing thems in the same map is a good thing, in Quake. Here are my thoughts on this :

Quake is about parallel worlds turned mad (doomed dimensions), in an infinite Multiverse. So why not a kind of interference between them ? A dimension that turned so mad, that several other dimensions are "overlapping".

So imagine a map in which you have a main theme, and where elements of other themes are appearing here and there at start, then turned to be fulling mixed at the end of the map.

All along its path into the map, the player would say "WTF !?", "What the Hell happened here ?", "The Universe itself is doomed !"...

This would be like a kind of "dimensional nightmare". 
Teleport Brush 
Not sure about it yet, might try scaling it.

Ideally it should deform and distort while maintaining the classic starfield tex.

Will have to see what I can do.

Cramped? Yeah, unfortunately it seems thats my new style. 
Bricks And Stones And Broken Bones 
Repeating some of that red color inside the teleporter around the scene might give it a nice overall color palette. Just a thought. 
( Textures, Not Lighting ) 
You can minimize the distortion cause by the warping if you float the teleport textured brush behind the teleporter frame. Make it a rectangle just smaller than the teleporter frame and very thin. If the player can get back to the rear of the teleporter it won't look so good though. 
Yeah, I might make it blue instead to match the other colours.

Lighting and palette is pretty random at the moment. 
Blue Teleporttexture Was The Original Design.. 
Ended up experimenting :) 
Nice detailing.

As for mixing themes, it is possible but it must have some sort of internal logic and harmony to it, Quake might be an abstract and fantastical game but that doesn't mean it should be mis-matched bullshit. 
I Agree With Shambler... 
I see no need for abuse of themes. I'm sure there are plenty of variations on a theme not yet realised that would look nice (I made an experiment with wood and metal with yellow and purple lights that looked quite cool) but it needs to make some kind of sense. The grunts in e1m2 were there because it was a transition of themes. 
Remember the tech enemies from Operation Urth Magik? Or the ogre, carrying his chainsaw and grenade launcher, but dressed in a medieval one-si. Even the player is futuristic, but still hacking through all these medieval, elder and metal settings.

As long as you've got a well realized theme and you stick to it then you're good. 
The Game Is The Bottom Line 
You're missing out on a lot of gameplay possibilities by sticking to a single theme.

As for visuals the lo-fi and 8bit palette nature of the game ties together everything, the existing themes are pretty 'abusive' internally anyway. No need to go Madfox to make a point... 
This is pretty much personal preference, hard to make strong arguments for either way. 
Mixed Themes 
I posted this on my tumblr, it's a doom map with a mash of almost all the quake textures in a single level (base, metal, wizard, they're all there) and also a bunch of doom textures too. It doesn't look too bad actually but it's still seems a bit funky to me - 
Quake Textures In Doom 
Are like HD textures in Quake. 
I Like Them 
I think doom does well with quakes brown loveliness.... It doesnt work as well the other way round though, Doom textures are a bit too colourful for quake IMO. 
Doom Mod 
That actually looks pretty nice imo.
Didn't Nehahra use Doom textures in certain parts? Worked okay for the most part iirc. But prolly need to brownify them a bit I guess.

What's the resolution difference? I think Quake textures are twice the res? Id always upped the texture resolution really gradually. It probably stayed around Q3 level for the past 10 years tho :P 
Doom and Quake were both basically done with 64x64 textures. Doom textures were often made from "patches" which were pieced together to form the final texture.

Quake 2 had a lot of 64x64, but was mostly 128x128.

With Quake 3 Arena they changed to larger textures (most were 256x256) that were down-sampled in the game to half the original size. 
Re: Mixed Themes 
Just mix Egyptian into everything, it works 
Mr. Tronyn 
do you still have the src files of the Rapture pak?

As you remember one map has been split into two parts

it's time to join the map for its original state

pretty please 
Alas, Mr Spy 
I don't have the sources for anything before Masque. What's even more annoying is that years ago, like before Masque, I started a joined Rain Palisade version (I assume you mean that map), with a much bigger initial outdoor area and another vertical level. 
Well That's Disappointing, Ankh 
I was hoping you'd provide an update of this: 
Re: Mixed Themes Again 
Was there anyone who seriously disliked this map?
It was awesome in exactly the way Barnak described. 
The Ultimate Mashup 
@Tronyn, it was ok, it was cool when the base part moved to medieval but its not the best example of theme mashups.

The turtle map by Zwiffle is the ultimate example of how a mashup map should be done, amazing stuff! :) 
That kinda proves my point about mixed themes pretty well, yeah. 
I Don't Have The Sources For Anything Before Masque. 
That's really sad now, mr.T

yeah, i was referring to a Rainpal level 
Fuck That 
Tronyn is full of levels.

I want to see his new stuff. 
Re: Mixed Themes

The Elderworld Waystation looked pretty neat mix of base in a strange environment, though it's been a long while since my last playthrough. 
Maybe A Mix Theme Speedmap Is In Order? 
Been Busy Playing With My New Toys. (Graphics Card, Battlefield 4 / 3) 
Looks Cool 
Maybe some zerstorer trees could make the horizon lines more interesting, against the bright skybox. 
Looks good, but could be a bit more vertical. Try sloping down the grates downward, for a start? 
Sneak Peeks

Three not so revealing screenshots of my upcoming map, or rather maps, as it has gotten so big it had to be split into two. 
Third shot sure looks moody! 
That first shot. 
Nice Stuff! 
Are you using a custom mod or id1? 
My God... 
the second shot looks like a level from zerstorer. Impressive! 
Reminds Me 
of gunman chronicles... cool! 
That Looks All Kind Of Amazing 
Thank You For The Kind Words 
This is all id1 ijed, no mods here :) 
map shots look really good, but you should get a better engine! 
Can't see shit on the first and third shot. But the second one looks nicely weird. 
Are you suggesting that I use a certain engine of the Fitz variety, instead of the one that I have loved and grown accustomed to? :) 
Wow Orl 
Looks terrifying!

The second shot was inspired by Prometheus, no?

Looking seriously cool. 
Looks Orlish 
You Guys Think I Should Keep This Tower? 
when you�re done with this map, I think i will know it inside out.
Nice to let us follow your progress so detailed...
Shot is nice though.. 
I think you should go crazier with it, make it taller with turrets and everything. 
Keep The Tower 
and expand on it... Also, align the textures under the curved ledge bit! Otherwise people will lose their mind! 
Maybe put a rock structure inbetween... 
Yep Taller 
So Then 
will the Quaketastic info be updated here? 
Oh Yeah 
someone please do it and also mention that the maximum filesize is currently 128mb, and if someone needs to upload more, contact me 
Pixel Palace 
Not Sure How I Feel About The Yellow Lighting 

Shesp1 is one of my favs. 
^^Awesome Shot.. 
We can always use more IKWhite! Also, love the coloured lighting. The thing I love about white/light grey texture sets is that they are sort of a blank slate for your lighting. shadows are immediately apparent and become part of the texture, and even the faintest of colours can change the mood entirely. 
My discomfort may be misleading. Coloured lighting could be used so well if used tastefully and with restraint 
That yellow light stands out like a sore thumb. Even if it was a "shoot me" secret, I'd recommend changing it. 
...we meet again... 
the yellow light is good, i think it would be to drag without it, but there needs to be more than just 1. don't make everything yellow lights, there needs to be a mix, done in a way it would make sense to make you have certain tall lights that are yellw and the rest are white. or maybe the yellow lighting comes from the sunlight, which means change the sky. that way that top dome can have a ray of yellow lighting. it would mean most areas of the level where need some sort of peek into the outside so the sunlight can get in. 
I Recommend 
making the color more subtle. 
Yellow Light 
I'm still experimenting with lighting, since IKWhite is a very singular theme. I figured having a few warm lights would be a good idea, but I'd like to keep the thing mostly light cold blue (the only white light is the one from the sky so far). I'd like to keep the night sky.

The yellow light might be too strong though. 
Hey Skacky 
I'd agree with taking the yellow light down a touch - when it's surrounded by all that blue you'd probably even get away with not colouring it and it would look warm. Also, if you want a copy of that's been palette-swapped from ikblue to ikwhite, just drop me an e-mail and I'll hook you up! 
I like it. Don't think the color is too strong. 
For What It's Worth 
I think Zendar has the best use of coloured light in Quake that I've seen. 
On second thought, tone it down a bit. Or try making the spot yellow and the fill grey-blue. 
Most Blue Would Be Ideal 
but looking good. 
skacky you a very talent guy!

keep it up! 
Sure, I'll send you a mail pretty soon. Domes are welcome since I already have quite a lot of brushes in the level. :p

I changed the yellow light for a very cold orange and I think it looks better. It's less piss and more subtle. 
Waterfalls And Stuff 
.. but the waterfall has too much transparency IMHO... 
Looks Good 
but practically where is the water coming from? The top part should be set further down so it doesnt look as flat as it does at the moment.

Then again it probably will depend on player's perspective when he looks up, ie will the player be as high as where the shot's taken from? 
SHOTS. All looking good in their respective ways. Keep it going mapperz :) 
The player won't be that high up singe the waterfall is flowing down the slope. and also, do you want me to change the alpha scale or remove it? 
The Boxes 
The boxes shown at the bottom of that fall have some weird proportions. Doesn't feel right. 
Waterfall Looks Good 
agree re transparency.
Completely disagree re looking top part being too high, re boxes being bad proportions. 
Left one is 64x64 but only 32 high. Middle is 32x64 and 32 high. Neither of those are a "standard" size. Right one is 64x64x64. The weird shape looks like is because of an abnormally high fov setting. 
I had my fov set to 100, do you want me to resize the boxes? 
Make whatever looks good to you. You don't see non-cube crates often in Quake but that doesn't make them wrong. I was just saying that the distortion was probably just a display artifact. It does look a little more skewed than I'm used to, what engine is that? 
I'm Using Quakespasm, Rick. 
God Dammit... 
looks like my map isn't working very well, I'm getting strange vis errors. you think I should start over? 
I Would Like You To Keep At It. 
If you want me to keep at it, how am I supposed to fix all the vis errors? 
It Would Help To Post Them Here 
Here's A Bit Of My Vis Compile Log: 
---- WVis 2.31 ( XT build 1.01 ) ----
Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Multithreading enabled by Willem
Further mods by Tuna, rebb
Detail code by Alexander Malmberg <>

File: Bre01.bsp
LoadPortals: couldn't read Bre01.prt
No vising performed. 
Disregard What I Said. 
Found out what was happening, but there's a bug when near the waterfall, I get this odd HOM bug. how do I fix it? 
Ah The Joys Of Mapping.... 
You could always post some screenshots of the area and maybe a wireframe view of the area? 
I'm On The Verge Of Starting Over... 
You should make the map file available to one of the more experienced mappers here. I'm sure someone can tell you how to fix these problems. Maybe ask negke or necros, they are good at diagnosing technical problems. 
Waterfall To Bloodfall 
May I suggest to change the waterfall to something more in line with the red sky ? Bloodfall, or lavafall, with a river of hot blood/lava around the crates...

Would feel more "out of this world" ! 
Best thing to do is check to make sure vertices in the affected area are grid snapped. Make sure there are no mixed faces. Also is the map sealed off from the void? Sometimes a map which is unsealed has weird vising issues, plus be careful with brush entities as vising can sometimes occlude them in areas you definitely don't want them to be occluded from.

SW has a nice idea too, one of more experienced mappers may be able to diagnose the problem. It make be a simple case of rebuilding a few brushes in the area also. 
Well, Here It Is. 
Thanks For Uploading The Source 
I'll have a look too, maybe its a problem with the tools. I would also recommend compiling the map with TyrUtils and see if the problem persists. 
***ERROR 20: Found a non-convex face at (3288 -5275 608).

Working on it. 
Which Level Editor Did You Use? 
The Map Was Made Entirely With Trenchbroom. 
What texture were wads used? Some of thos I can't find. If you make the "bad" bsp available they can be extracted.

One thing I noticed that seems a little weird is that, in the rock areas around the waterfall, you have "tri-souped" using brushes with non triangular tops. Looking down from the top I would split these into two triangular brushes. 
No matter what happens, keep going. Nobody expects miracles in your first map and neither should you - this is your first test bed for ideas. 
No matter what happens, keep going. Nobody expects miracles in your first map and neither should you - this is your first test bed for ideas. 
Literally Took Ages On My First 
plugging bsp holes and bug fixing takes a while. I had problems where entire areas would scrunch into a mess with weird shapes.

I ended up redoing whole areas and brushes. Also I found that when you have too many overlapping brushes it tends to cause serious problems. 
@rick Texture Wads In Order: 
offcut.wad by sock (found in ivory tower pak)
kdmtex.wad found here:
Kdmtex Link Fix 
Make sure to go to Map Properties, then check the "Force integer plane points" check box. 
Can't Compile It On TreeQBSP V2.03 
It keeps on error20.
ven a big box around it keeps args on the non-convex face. I can't compile it.
I'm afraid there are too many shape-brushes that are used as hull-brushes. Then there's always a leak-error. 
I used TxQBSP 1.13 to compile the map, and I thought it worked fine. 
Fix This 
>>> Parts of the map are outside the 4096 limit.

txqbsp_xt generated 33 warnings, mostly point-off-plane but some r_cutnodeportals also 
Compiler Versions 
There are two convex shapes on 3288 -1276 608 and 896 -1572 128.
If I delete these brushes, (after surounding a box round the map) my compiler errors on leak.

I see you use convex brushes for the outer site of the map. (empty void) Not sure if that's a good idea, as the outsite brush becomes one of the three hulls.

I have no good experience with convex brushes in the outsite of a map. Even if they're well ligned, I alway seal them off with a cover brush. 
This only my personal opinion but I don't think anyone should use skip or detail brushes on their first map. This map is small and it's mostly one big open area, I see no need for either at this point anyway.

BTW, the part of the map that's outside the 4096 limit is the side with the waterfall.

I subbed some textures and ran it with no vis in fitzquake. Looks fine, I'll see if it will vis next. 
What do you mean by convex brushes? All brushes are, by definition, convex. 
Madfox Maps 
with non-euclidean geometry of course. 
Qbsp Vis Incompatabilty 
wvis.exe wouldn't vis the map with an error "LoadPortals: Not a portal file". I figured it was because of the detail brushes, so I downloaded the latest Tyrutils.

Well, the vis in that set of tools wouldn't vis it either

"LoadPortals: unknown header: PRT1-AM".

Why? I thought txqbsp_xt should work with it, it does detail brushes.

Oh well, I went back and BSPed it again with the qbsp in tyrutils. That one only generated 4 warnings, one about no deathmatch starts (!) and three of "WARNING 12: new portal was clipped away in CutNodePortals_r". It's been vising for over 30 minutes and "Calculating Full Vis" is up to ...7 should been done pretty soon (I hope). 
Just To Let You Guys Know... 
I have an email (obviously Gmail) but I don't show it here because I'm afraid that I could get hacked or have my personal information posted somewhere on the internet. 
The Water Thing 
Seems to be a problem with the Jury-Rigged Tools.

I've isolated the water-area and the vis glitch only occurs when a detail-brush is intersecting the water surface - in this case the crate.

TyrUtils does not show this glitch ( because Tyrann actually knows what he's doing ;) ), so i'd say use it instead.

You'll probably have to make some fixes to other parts of the map first for it to compile in TyrUtils though, i got quite a few leak errors in it and only the isolated water-area compiled on first try.

I'll investigate the problem tomorrow and hopefully come up with a fix. 
The detail-brush implementations of TyrUtils and the Jury-Rigged BJP tools are not the same and write different portal-file formats when detail-brushes are used. 
I Only Got 4 Minor Warnings 
and no leaks with the Tyrutils qbsp. I wonder if this is because the map was modified then saved in Netradiant? All I did was change textures though, none of the brushes were touched. 
Wow Guys... 
I never thought you guys would do all of this for me. thanks for your help. 
Wow, that thing took almost 2 hours to vis.

I looked carefully but I didn't see any terrible problems except - everything below any water surface is gone. Once you drop below the water surface it comes back. From inside the water looking back up everything is fine. It's very easy to see if wateralpha is set to something low like 0.01

I've isolated the water-area and the vis glitch only occurs when a detail-brush is intersecting the water surface - in this case the crate.

I compiled the entire map, the disappearing geometry problem also occurs at the first small waterfall and small pool of water. There are no intersecting detail brushes there. It definitely appears to be a vis issue because with r_novis 1, the problem goes away.

I'd like to remove the detail brushes and see what happens. I can't do that until tomorrow because it would probably take 8 hours to vis on my work/dev/internet computer and I can't tie up the living room computer for another 2 hours on Sunday night because that's the home entertainment machine. 
Rick, I Can't Thank You Enough For Your Patience And Assistance. 
One Small Correction 
Once you drop below the water surface it comes back. From inside the water looking back up everything is fine.

I have to take the above statement back. Apparently I just wasn't deep enough in the water. When you're barely below the surface, it's okay, but go just a little deeper and everything above the water disappears also. I don't think you can get deep enough in the first small pool of water to see this.

Also, for the record, I used tyrutils version 0.14 for this (well, except for Light). 
Did you compile with -transwater switch in the bsp phase ? 
I just plugged the different exe and map names into the same batch file I've been using for years.

Seriously, that's not the default? 
Apparently Not 
With txqbsp and txqbsp_xt the switch is -nowatervis to disable transparent water, with qbsp it's -transwater to enable it.

I probably should have read the docs, but I've been using txqbsp since 2007 and it never occurred to me that any newer version of qbsp would not have transparent water on by default. 
Okay I Used Transwater This Time 
Here are three screenshots. In your original five I actually wasn't sure where the problem was in a couple of them, but I could see the problem in the two shots taken from in the water near the crate. The last of your screenshots illustrates what the player sees when they cross one of the 4096 unit map boundaries.

In the water near the crate:

As you can see there are no problems.

Crossing the 4096 unit limit (this is normal):

I have no idea if saving the map in Netradiant magically fixed something, but I was too lazy to download the texture wads you used, so I had to load the map in Netradiant so I could change them to regular Quake textures.

I used the Tyrutils v.014 qbsp and vis to compile the map.

I don't see any reason to give up on the map at this point. You do need to move the map away from the 4096 boundary. The map is basically one large open area, I doubt you're getting much benefit from detail brushes, but from what I see they're not the cause of any problems either. 
Of Course... 
why would people here not help you? Even the jerks around here are addicted enough to quake to help anyone as long as they get their quake fix ;)

Seriously though peeps are cool around here and will help mappers out, even going to lengths like editing the map files for you and bug fixing :) 
This should now be fixed in the Jury-Rigged BJP Tools as well.

Test-Build ( will likely become main package soon )

Detail-Brushes should help even in open maps, as their portals will not complicate the vis calculations. 
You Called? 
This Is Good 
This should now be fixed in the Jury-Rigged BJP Tools as well.

I just tried this and there was no change to the marksurfaces count. When I tested the Tyrutils v.14 version last night, I got almost a 5% increase in marksurfaces. 
So That's What Was Happening Rick... 
Maybe I should move my map away from that boundry point. 
are you guys going to give me my map file that you changed around? or should I continue on the one I currently have? 
Didn't Change Anything 
Just substituted a bunch of textures, saved it in Netradiant, and compiled with Tyrutils v.14

Yes, you need to center the map. Right now it's mostly in the bottom right quadrant and actually extends past the 4096 limit along the right side. Select the entire map and, looking down on it from above, move everything about 1024 units toward the upper left. Not real sure how Trenchbroom views work, as an angle, move everything in the 135 degree direction. 
Ok Rick 
I'll do that if I have time. 
So Yeah... 
I just had to get rid of the leaks in my map and compile it. AND EVERYTHING IS WORKING! There's still tiny bugs I can fix but I can't thank you guys enough for helping me fix my first map! I'm starting to love this community! :) 
I Keep Thinking There Are Going To Be Screenshots!!! 
While I'm Here 
When I try to play a map I'm working on I get the following error from fitz and quakespasm:

Compile Error:
FGD - doesn't need to be merged, but doesn't seem to have everything included?
Mod_LoadBrushModel: maps/smqx11_drew_rumble.bsp has wrong version number (1112756274 should be 29) 
dr who stole the telephone cabin.

so, let there are going to be more screenshots 
Looking good, But I think it would be better replacing the textures on the rocks to make it look natural. Just my opinion on that. 
I Think You Should Pinstripe The Rocks 
with different textures 
Same sort of comment; I'd go with a stone blocks type of texture for the castle walls, and something more like rock and less like sand for the island it's on. That said, looks very impressive with all the little details, the Arabian-style arch on the bridge is interesting too. 
Just Remember 
texture alignment is for mere mortals 
I Just Love Castles 
and that's all I'm gonna say about it. 
Texture of the rocks looks a bit flat indeed.
I'm more concerned about the broad space, as it is only a small part of what happens inside.

Strange the alignment crashes while changing the map from Radiant1.5 to Quark6.4.
I had to start again several times because all rockshapes were scrambled. 
Rocks Need Work 
but I do like the look fo the castle! 
Laval Falls ?? 
Mapping For Episode Going Slow 
but I have done a bit of work today...

Had to rework areas a few times, creating map 1 of the episode was easier but that's probably because I now have more experience with making something good with the base texture set. 
That Looks Great! 
Something weird going on with textures in shot 2 though?
Anyways, looking forward to this! 
Maybe consider swapping the white brick for metal in shot 2? 
Nice Indeed 
Shots have a very former Id-ish style: that is great ! 
Grumpy Ogres 
oh boy! 
That's quite skinny when compared to this sugar pumpkin 
That looks pretty good. 
Looking Promising! Keep It Up Sock! 
Maybe I'd feel differently seeing it in game, but I think the chainsaw's base is too wide. It comes off as a 'fat sword' rather than a chainsaw. 
Grumpy Acid 
Yes Man,. 
Very nice. "Grumpy Acid" should be the map name too! 
Wow Mfx... 
I never though people could make custom maps for rubicon 2. well done! 
You can find the stuff you need right here.

Scroll down to instant satisfaction. 
I Have Rubicon 2 Already. 
Scroll down, there�s also the defs and wads for the mappers and modders... 
Yes, I Know, Who Ever You Are. 
Its Me. 
Who is that guy? 
Oh. Hello Mfx. 
Didn't know you were typing that. 
Little Castle Interior Early WIP 
Irregular Room Shapes 
Mappers tend to stick perpendicular to the grid on the x/y axis. It's easy... Quake textures tend to be nice and modular when working like that (also, faster vis). Base maps tend to use more angles usually, for some reason. Would be cool to see more maps where the rooms aren't boxes though, helps make things seem otherworldly, since boxes are like the constant in architecture.
Also, rotating entire rooms or buildings so the horizon is titled, can give player a feeling of disorientation/unbalances.
Takes bit more work in bsp engine since need to keep things on grid.

Just a basic assumption that isn't questioned often enough I think.
Doom does it more, because it's more 2D and have less options for variation besides just making the sectors irregular shaped. 
I rotated a tower around the z axis and it took most of a day to get it looking right and aligned to the grid. You can kind of see it, lower center, in this screen shot.

Pain in the ass it was, especially the arched doorway you can't see :) But at least you can align textures fairly well.

The problem with going too far off straight vertical is that the texture alignment gets pretty ugly looking and not really fixable as a surface approaches 45 degrees tilt off vertical and is angled in the xy plane at the same time. 
I Love That Aesthetic 
Really lookin forward to this Rick! 
Rick, That Looks Really Good! 
what texture wads are you using? 
Little Castle Interior Early WIP 
the greatest square room i've ever seen 

for real or sarcasm? 
Texture Wads 
A lot of the textures are just cut and paste, highly modified versions of the standard id textures.

The stone textures are modified versions of the zstn3 set (I think) from Kell's Apocrypha wad.

The brick textures are based on a couple of full color jpgs from a site called Spiral Graphics. I had to modify them a lot to work in Quake, and I created nearly two dozen unique variations just for this map. 
(Just in case, BTW), I wasn't disagreeing with you or anything, as a matter of fact I pretty much agree 100%, I was just trying to point out that Quake is pretty unfriendly with regard to texture alignment when it comes to oddball brush orientation.

I actually went to a lot of trouble rotating that tower and even though the effect is subtle, I like it a lot. 
You need to use an editor with proper texture locking. Build it on axis and then rotate it later. Should save you a lot of pain... 
That works in vanilla Quake? I don't think so, but I'd be more than happy to be wrong. 
The problem with funky rotations was older compilers which lacked support for floating point rotation of textures, or not being consistent with editors when to switch between projection planes when dealing with 45 degree surfaces.

Quake itself has no issues as long as the information in the .bsp is correct. 
I See What You're Saying But 
while, some/many of the old compilers would flip rotations or planes or both, that's not exactly what I see.

As far as I can tell, it (Quake) always seems to project directly on axis (90 degree angles), never at 45 degree angles or anything else for that matter.

When a surface is exactly vertical, simple scaling will usually fix any horizontal texture distortion, but once the surface is tilted 45 degrees away from vertical it becomes hopeless. 
The texture projection is entirely up to the compiler. If you feed a standard map file to a modern compiler, it will however use the paraxial texture projection which you are seeing.

If you want more control over texture projection, you will need to use an editor that writes and supports Valve's 220 map file format, which basically allows you to set up the texture projection in whichever way you like. TB doesn't support this yet, but it's planned for TB 2.0 (I think you are using TB?).

OTOH, there are many examples of Quake maps with paraxial texture projection which have proper texture alignment on rotated objects, but it's tricky. 
Little Castle Interior Update 
RingofQuaddamage very old school, looking nice. 
Sorry For The Rant 
Hi all, I realize this is mostly me just ranting, but could you please be more clear when you decide to discuss non-standard Quake stuff. I'm really tired of these cases where someone says "Oh, yeah, you can do that", then, after wasting much time, I find out that, well no, you have to use this, or do that, or something else, and no it's not really possible in standard Quake, or it pretty much won't work in regular old Quake.

It's not that I don't find the information useful, but at the moment, I'm not interested in mapping for any other game besides Quake. I probably wouldn't be here if I was.

This site is pretty much the last Bastion of old school Quake mapping info. I sure hope it sticks around. 
OTOH, there are many examples of Quake maps with paraxial texture projection which have proper texture alignment on rotated objects, but it's tricky.

This is not entirely true though because when a face is off-axis on more than 1 axis, then the texture projection creates a skewed texture which is impossible to align no matter what is done. 
I'm really tired of these cases where someone says "Oh, yeah, you can do that", then, after wasting much time, I find out that, well no, you have to use this, or do that, or something else, and no it's not really possible in standard Quake, or it pretty much won't work in regular old Quake.

As a frequent advocate for the benefits of backwards compatibililty, I can assure you that you can create maps that take advantage of these new features that still run in the original winquake engine. You need a new compiler, that's all. 
Excuse Me, But 
The texture alignment problems are not a compiler issue. This is the way Quake normally works.

Necros has very clearly (thank you) re-stated the issue in post #103374

when a face is off-axis on more than 1 axis, then the texture projection creates a skewed texture which is impossible to align no matter what is done.

Again, if anyone has a fix for this in vanilla Quake, please share. However, I'm pretty sure it's not possible. For the record, I'm not about to incorporate some weird Valve texture alignments in a Quake map or be forced to recommend a "not really Quake" engine to play one I make. That's just the way it is.

Also please note, I was not complaining about this or asking for a fix. I was simply responding to a prior post in order to point out the difficulties and problems faced when surfaces are significantly off-axis in Quake.

BTW, I use txqbsp_xt. I think it's a whole year old. The only newer one I'm aware of is in tyrutils v.14 and that one has marksurfaces issues. The editor I use is Netradiant, the only one I know of newer is Trenchbroom. From what I see, these newer compilers and editors are still experimental and buggy. Surely that's not recommended?

Also, I still stand by what I said in my previous post. Please be clear if something you recommend either will not work in, or has not been tested in, vanilla Quake. It may save others from wasting time. 
You Don't Understand 
This is not an engine problem. The engine doesn't care how textures are projected - the appropriate information is generated by the compiler. You can "fix" the problems by switching to an editor that fully supports Valve's 220 map format, which was invented to solve exactly this problem. Most recent compilers will understand the 220 map format and generate proper texture coordinates for your map file.

The problem is that you need to find an editor that supports this map format. I don't know if Netradiant does.

All this will work great in vanilla Quake - it's all about the tool chain in this case.

necros' post only pertains to the paraxial texture projection which is used for standard Quake map files. 
It has nothing to do with vanilla Quake. It's just that the standard .map format isn't flexible enough to handle multi-plane rotations appropriately. It'll end up looking like the white bricks in the center here. Other map formats like Valve 220 can make it work. As long as the compilers support that map format (the Tx- ones do in this case), you can use it and it'll run in any engine. It's not possible in Netradiant, however.

There are no simple workarounds; it's needs a lot of experimentation and manual fiddling. I found that sometimes it's beneficial to change the shape of the brush/face ever so slightly in order to make the texture fit better, rather than trying to fix it by means of aligning. It usually won't be visible if it's just one or two units. Though often textures on multi-axis faces (at least those with only one spacial definition, e.g. horizontal seams) can be aligned neatly even without floating point offsets by changing the scale on the particular axis in very small increments. An example for this would be the trim inside the window frames on the roofcony in mce.bsp. But it's a pain in the ass, indeed. 
And FYI, QuArK has the best texture tools any map editor has. 
The Worldcraft Editors 
allow better texture alignment, Rick.

I don't use worldcraft because Trenchbroom is fun to use, though aligning textures is more problematic. 
I Guess QuArK Is Kind Of Like Spirit 
Despite its excentric appearance it has the potential to get things done. But you really got to know how to handle it, otherwise it'll refuse to cooperate and the whole thing will end in frustration. 
Can't really think of anything apart from the floating point issues that quark does not do better than other editors... 
User interface? 
Follows intuitive Windows GUI experience. Have you ever tried the Radiants? 
Quarks interface described as "intuitive". I think that's a first... 
Also, Radiant is not much better. I mean - multiple rows of toolbar buttons with random icons? Seriously, whenever I use Quark to check something out that doesn't work properly in TB I'm at a loss. I don't even know where to begin just to select a face and see its properties, for example. 
I'd guess that the Jackhammer editor supports the 220 format, from the way they describe their texture features. Haven't tried it myself though. 
Is this thread turning into a level editor debate or something? 
It happens every time someone brings up QuArK. Spirit's trolling attempts prove sucessful once again. 
i am honestly not trolling.

I had to read tutorials before I could even place one brush in a radiant.

Faces in quark are selected by clicking the icon at a face (squares) or by clicking on the in the 3D view. Then I don't remember much but the properties are shown somewhere in the left panel. 
Radiant is driven mostly by keyboard shortcuts, those icons are apparently made by people who felt they were necessary for some reason.

Netradiant has a Help menu that lists the keyboard shortcuts. 
I was being unclear - that "multiple rows" remark was directed at Quark again. Radiant's UI is a bit better IMO, but also suffers from a lot of issues. But back when I was still mapping, I found Radiant to be much quicker, as in, I generally was able to map faster with Radiant than with WC or Quark. 
Quarl still the only intuitive for me :\ 
I stand corrected. I looked at the crater map provided by Preach and the 220 texture thing does indeed work in plain old Quake. Unfortunately it looks like Netradiant doesn't support it. 
Little Start Area Thingy 

This is done in QuArK, but I've got to switch away from it - it's so slow.

AFAIK the vertical shearing I'm using on the sides of the staircase needs something other than vanilla quake .map, so it looks TB1 isn't an option for this map (I exported this as vanilla quake .map in QuArK, opened in TB, and the staircase sides are rotated instead of sheared):

Any suggestions? learn radiant for now? Or maybe the tilted wood panels look OK and I should stick to vanilla .map. :P

I noticed Tyrann's compile tools can read the Quake 2 .map format. Does anyone use that in combination with Radiant? I'm assuming the Q2 map format can handle arbitrary texture alignment? 
That Staircase Texture 
makes me think that TB really needs a texture skewing tool. Rotating to fit seems like a weird solution to that problem. 
niiice! For the slowness try using groups/folders for your map and hiding some. 
That's Probably Because 
TB doesn't support Valve's 220 map format (yet). TB2 will support it properly, but it's still a couple of months off. 
seems Doomish! Kind of like "Sever the Wicked" - exciting! 
For The Flack WC(3.3) Gets... 
Does this mean that the 220 .map format is superior? And should be adopted, similar to raised engine limits, by all the other editors? 
Agree Completely 
re doom vibe 
220 Map Format 
Is better in many respects but the most important one is probably texturing and how it deals with floating points.

WC3.3 gets flack because of few few things that I can think of off hand:

HLWAD format required which makes for extra work converting wads using TexMex.

The mandatory install location is hard coded into it which is not always desirable.

It doesn't always play well with 3rd party compiling tools as far as adding -flags without using a separate tool to use them (Necros's compiling tool usually) which means another layer of extra work

Difficult to set up for Quake without the QuakeSpasm (I think, maybe QuakeAddicted) setup tool.

I think that the above things have a lot to do with the fact that it's first and foremost a Half-Life 2 editor (source engine which is a derivative of the Quake 2 engine which is a derivative of the Quake engine) and not a Quake editor. There's 3 layers of engines and their extra features to muck through to get to editing a Quake map. 
It's pretty easy. I agree with some of the things you said, but really, it's a doddle to get it set up and get it to compile even huge maps for Quake 1.

The setup tool to which you were referring is called Quake Adapter (

The thing that doesn't work too well is loading the .map files output by Worldcraft into other editors. The texture alignment is always scrambled.

The only other real issue (and one you didn't mention) is that sometimes people will experience a bug where the cursor gets locked in the wrong mode in the 3D view, and you have to save with Ctrl+S, and shut it down, re-load and everything is fine. But sometimes to problem persists. The bug doesn't corrupt the map, it just prevents one from being able to edit it until the editor stops bugging out. I haven't seen the bug for years, but it used to happen to me once in a blue moon. Others have experienced it. 
Worldcraft Beef 
My beef with Worldcraft was that it obstructs the workflow in a team setting because maps produced by it can't easily be loaded into other editors. Plus people usually don't care to convert their maps every time they check them into the SVN (if they do at all).

Since most remaining Quake mappers work alone, don't intensely cooperate on the same maps, or actually use WC themselves, that isn't a problem of course.

My other beef with it was that it's closed source and unmaintained, thus new features that might require changes to the source (such as Q2/Q3 support) cannot be added, at all.

A third beef to me is the 4 pane layout; I'm used to working in 2 panes, a 3D viewport where I do most of the work and a switchable 2D viewport that I sometimes use to quickly create new brushes by dragging with the mouse. To my knowledge, Radiant is the only editor that supports this workflow.

Trenchbroom seems to solve some of those problems.

If Trenchbroom one day gets Q3 support, it would be worth long and hard looks from anyone who makes maps for Nexuiz, Xonotic, Warsow, SJ, Alien Arena, and any Darkplaces- or Quake3- related game. 
Re: Editors 
There's a new level editor in the works called Sledge, still in alpha stage and currently only supporting Goldsource and eventually Source, but the developer has said he isn't opposed to adding support for other games/engines if there's demand for it. Seeing as it's in development and only in alpha stage, anyone can make suggestions, and it's even open source:

I take it many people here are happy with Trenchbroom, but for people like me, who can't live without 2D views, I think this could fill the void nicely if Quake support was to be added. So let your voices be heard if you agree! 
Getting a huge Doom vibe as well from ericw's pictures. Also, I've been using Worldcraft for very long (more than 8 years) and switcihing to TB was very easy. I miss valve 220 sometimes, though. 
Re: 10408 
Jackhammer has Quake support with a WC interface. 
Grid Disaster 
Reading the editor chat I still get bumped in houres mapping spirit by this bug that keeps holding on.
Mapping with Radiant is really sharp in cutting edges and staying on grid.

But what to do if a map like this the other day opens like that?

I tried to understand what happened to the wedges, but I didn't change them.
In Radiant1.05 the map looks great, in Quark6.4 imported it's junk. 
I did change the map, not the wedges. 
So These Were Posted On Skacky's Twitter 
Hot Mamma 
Very Nice! 
can't compete with that. 
Beautiful Stuff 
a great new interpretation of IKwhite, the lighting in particular looks amazing. 
Avanipaala Praasaada 2?
can't wait 
Oh My God... 
Those shots are indeed impressive... very nice foggy/grey style.. looks to be an architecture masterpiece :)

Keep it up ! 
Lighting In First Shot (+fog?) 
is unbelievable.

Actually no all shots. 
Great Looking Shots 
Wot They Said. 
Plus, it's not a competition. Good is good, end of story. 
Keep In Mind... 
I did not make this map. skacky did. 
I was only hanging around.., 
Chasm The Rift 
How does Quake Fans feel about Chasm the Rift? I remember the weapons and models were great. 
I Loved It... 
but this is the wrong thread! 
Great art, gameplay was like a boring Doom... 
I honestly think i'm the slowest mapper. 
Grahf Is The Slowest Mapper. 
clearly Sock is the slowest mapper. 
That Should Be No Not Co 
What About.. 
.. staled mappers... (like me)... almost but never stopped, in lack of time/inspiration/etc..
Is it considered as slow, or simply out of the "context".. if in the context, we are many to pretend being the slowest :) 
Is the slowest mapper. 
Lol I never was a mapper :) but love to play u guys maps...Go map please! 
You�ll be served soon..

64k marksurfaces

3000 light entites 
Awesome love your maps ;) 
No One Is Slower Than Me 
I've been working on my current map since 2007. 

slowest, because I have no eggsplantation. 
Pro Tip: 
for mfx or anyone else using rubicon2 entities:

On light_fixture1, set these keys:

"angle" "315"
"mangle" "0 -90 0"

This will give a shadow on the wall directly above the fixture. 
Pro Tip II: 
Set _softangle to 20, to make it look neat.

Thanks metlslime, i already have the mangle wall-torch thing on the fixture, but a slightly smaller angle. Looks good anyhow. 
mfx y're a great mapper with awesome idears... with I could map like you :p 
slowest, because I have no eggsplantation.


What Do You Guys Think I Should Do With This Room? 
Not Copy From Sock.. 
A Little Idol Worship Is Okay I Think 
mfx, you never did release your Honey tribute, did you? 
oh no, he borrowed from sock's modern approach to an e1m2 look. what a fucking scandal

always copy from those who came before you. just make sure you add your own personal touchs 
Note To Self 
Shut up. 
Is There Anyone 
Not trying to emulate Sock's work? 
To Answer The Question 
Sink the floor and flood it, then nail some zombies to the wall. 
I'll redesign the room. 
I'll redesign the room. 
Nothing Wrong 
with making maps like Socks. He is a great mapper and copying is part of learning, plus if people think your maps look like his then you're making a good map! 
I like it! mfx was making a joke... 
I Have Popcorn For 2 Weeks! 
and yes, looks good, of course... 
If Sock has a patent on wbrick1_5 with some white thrown in and a bunch of wood, then e1m2rq must be the biggest heist in history.

even though I think the responses RoQ got were a bit asshole-ish, they did bring up a pretty interesting topic, style.

It's something I've been considering, like if I map in the future, I'd like to work in a totally different style. But style is interesting, I recall the term "negkeish" being used on here, lol, with all its (accurate) implications of impeccably detailed brushwork and mind games meant to torment us into rage quitting. 
Have some actual feedback:
The floor is a bit flat, and from this angle the room looks like it is essentially a rectangle. Does this lead anywhere? The stone-skull-slab to the left looks a bit odd being perfectly flush to the wall, perhaps pull it out slightly? Is there a reason the stained glass is there, and not centered in the wall? Does it serve a purpose?

Without any more context, I can't really say where you should go with the room. But do keep it up, I don't think you are "copying sock". I think like anyone you've seen some good work and it has got your mind going on a similar thread. I'm happy to see content that is so Quake oriented in its themes. 
Good Advice, Scar3crow... 
It's a bit difficult figuring out what to do with the room... 
put it aside until later and see if it fits then 
Not Showing Much 
Holy Shit Tronyn... 
well, it's that or scrap the map and start over. 
My advice was serious.

Sink the floor.

Put a water brush there.

Put zombies on the wall.

This is irritating. 
The first one is shit, it's a decoy ;) 
That looks wicked! At first I though the crane and some of the lights were base/industrial details, but looking closer I guess it's a pure medieval crane. Looks great in any case.

one thing - the light grey crane/buildings against the skybox looks kind of color inverted. maybe try lowering the rgb values of the fog just enough to get the crane silhouette the be darker than the skybox? 
I don't know whether it is made voluntarily but: those black and white shots are really amazing... or is it the fog that generates this visual effect ?
Second shot upper structure is really puzzling me: wtf is this ?
Can't wait playing this map ! 
Sorry Ijed... 
I'll do something similar to that... 
Looks amazing. Hope it's all b+w. can't wait! 
Changing Up Things 
Try replacing wbrick1_5 with wall14_5 
Looks Good 
Nice idea. 
Loovks very pretty 
hmmm no ones done a b&w map have they? could be really cool to see one, it'll give more focus to the lighting which needs to be fantastic.

looking really good tronyn! 
Negke Did A Speedmap... 
and that's it, I think...

PS - just wandered through the Bal scraps... so nice! Hope someone with the adequate skill set does something with those! Pretty crazy to think he whipped those up back in 05. 
Tronyn you map like a god, but i whould love to see a map from you less epic... a smaller map :)

Your maps have always huge sizes, but guess is your signature :p 
B&W Maps 
I messed with it years ago. I converted most of the original game content into black and white by texture and skin swapping but I hit a wall with engine based explosions and stuff like trails being in color which just didn't look quite right so I dumped it.

Aside from that it definitely added a different feel to the game as a whole. Too bad the feel was broken by the stuff that I couldn't change myself. 
couldn't you just create a greyscale palette.lmp and be done with it? 
What He Said 
crocodile tears...? 
This is a dm map I think Drew 
Ever since SM110/108 I've been fantasizing about making an abstract, possibly Alice-like map combining the B&W and Zer flesh themes. Maybe some day... 
doesn't fitzquake have a thing where you can make the whole game in black and white? :P 
after the Drake merger, if I make anything further, it'll definitely be on a smaller scale!

negke: what a great idea! sounds cool. If anyone should make a b&w map it's Tyrann, since his lighting has always struck me as the most impressive. 
awesome tronyn I love your maps ;)

smaller maps might gives us more maps :) wish I had the time and your skills! 
Noir Quake 
couldn't you just create a greyscale palette.lmp and be done with it?

I did that...(almost a decade ago now I look)

Of course, my hosting died since then - I can reupload it if there's demand. 
He made an sp version. with a mere 100 and something enemies...
Back me up here Tronyn! 
A properly done b&w map has to be built to be b&w, because much more emphasis has to be put into the textures and lighting for proper contrasts. not just slap an engine mod on it and expect it to look good.

where are these bal map scraps? I want a looksy-poo. 
Oh Heh 
you mean Dry Sorrow, yeah that was an old DM map converted for SP, and it's definitely the smallest map I released since like... I dunno it's even smaller than A Desert Dusk 
Need Beta Testers. 
I have completed the first 2 maps in my quake-like-id-did episode. Just need a bit of feedback. My email addy is in my user profile. 
Can I Test Out Your Maps, Fifth? 
Mind if you PM me a link on my steam? 
Any demos would be good too. And just your general impression of the map, likes/dislikes. 
A properly done b&w map has to be built to be b&w, because much more emphasis has to be put into the textures and lighting for proper contrasts. not just slap an engine mod on it and expect it to look good.

Exactly. I tried using the Preach method first (messing with the palette) but it just wasn't working out the way I wanted it to. So I converted everything individually in pak0 over to B&W. Textures, skins and sprites.

Because I did it texture by texture it looked a lot better because I could do some tweaking to individual textures to clear up some errors made in the conversion from color to B&W (but it still had some issues where the engine added color to a few things) but unfortunately I couldn't really do anything with it for fear of violating id copyrights so I chalked it up to learning something new and chucked it. In retrospect I probably should have at least saved the wad, sprites and skins somewhere.

You have to keep in mind that the engines back then were less than fully documented so figuring out how to make some thing look fully monochrome wasn't something easy to just look up online. I think TomazQuake (which had just come out when I was messing around with it) came the closest to looking closest to "Right".

IIRC I used Pak Explorer, AdQuedit, QME 3.0 (the free version) TexMex, MS Paint and Paintshop Pro 5. 
That Was Supposed To Be Aimed At Kona, Not Bal 
Here :

Wait no that was for Kona not quaketree! 
Finish That Episode, Bal! 
That *was* for you. 
wow those are awesome. i especially like that it's all custom textures, I think more people need to use custom textures rather than id's stuff all the time.

and as much as I'm well over base maps, that smaller one you've got there looks great with those textures.

you could even merge start, vil, tower and rocks all into one huge bsp2 map, they're kind of similar styles. 
RoQD... Link Sent 
for episode.

Anyone else? I need a couple of different opinions :) 
Fine Mom I'll Do It 
Count Me In 
i can do it too 
@ you all. 
Here's Your Demos, Fifth. 
I'm Looking For A Couple Testers 
for a chunky, unvised map that won't be out for a couple months (I want to start vising it soonish though). So you would need a powerful computer. Email dustin dot geeraert at umanitoba dot ca. 
Little Something I'm Working On
Hopefully I won't screw this up. 
Looks Good, 
keep on! 
You need to use the box that says force integer plane points!! 
Good Idea, Fifth. 
And For Gods Sake 
Bind "snap vertices" to the space bar and make sure you give it a tap every time you're faffing around with the vertex tool! (or the clipping tool!)


Plus you eventually get a feel for what kind of geometry is possible and what's going to give you nightmares down the line. 
Start Map... 
So I spent a lot of today just getting the start area sorted for my quake like id did pack... It intentionally very much like the original game, but I am going to make it a bit more unique once you go to the episode choice area (not actually made that yet) 
spot the horrifically misaligned texture. 
Looks Somewhat Similar To Id's Start. 
Looks Great though! 
Not Quake the way id did... perhaps Quake the way Raven (or Romero) would have done? 
A Challenger Approaches... 
Wonderful Troyn!

(don't worry, fifth, I like yours too.) 
I have played Tronyn's start area thing. It's epic on a scale you wouldn't believe (really, it's fecking huge). :P 
I Dont Like How It Says THE START 
breaks the atmosphere IMHO. 
I think after all these years, acknowledging the highly unrealistic nature of Quake levels in a meta- fashion, is fine. Arguably, stuff like Kell's e1m2 with its floating pieces of rock going into the skybox, similarly admits this. 
I think it would be cool if it were in Latin, and said initium 
Start By Tronyn 
Holly mother of GOD! That looks awesome. Where can I get the map? 
Tronyn's Bunghole. 
nowhere yet, it'll be released with the final version of DRAKE (my goal is by spring day 1).

but, the tech people, whom I massively admire, have made things easier, so I'm hoping to release the whole thing within like 2 months. 
Agree With Scampie 
nice to see you still around Shambler, approximately 15 years after you refused to review my first map. 
@Fifth, I know you are going for the whole ID vibe in your maps but it feels too similar to the original. I know you have done subtle changes, like extra floor detail but I was expected more differences.

@Tronyn, wow nice large epic start entrance, it feels very greek style to me, maybe have the start text in a greek style font and try 'begin' or 'enter' instead of start? I would prefer to see the screenshot in colour. 
This is the only room which will be so close to the original game. Once you get to the episode selection the differences will be much more apparent. There are some very small homages but it is all brand new stuff, promise! 
haha tronyn, 15 years since shambler refused to review my first episode as well! he was offended I even thought he'd consider putting it on his site.

re start map, fifth that just looks like id's start map. what's the difference? if you're going to do big changes to the other maps, why not the start map as well? it could have a lot more detail added. 
shambler refused to review my first map too!

it sucked though. 
Start Map Is Fine Guizzzzzz 
You'd be surprised at how different they actually are side-by-side. Mine is meatier with more detail and more defined lighting.

I might do a second pass on it once it's finished to make it feel a bit more unique anyway. I don't want to overdo the detail though as id maps were simplistic (and my intent is to actually release more maps per year). 
Look like HL1 :) 
WTF was he playing at??

On the plus side there does seem to be a correlation between having early maps rejected and then becoming a prolific and consistently good mapper :P 
well also Shambler, as you pointed out, at some point the general quality of maps became so good that even someone's first map was worth reviewing 
That Initial Sting Makes You Work Harder 
"I'll show that fat bastard Shambler what a good Q1SP is." 
Still Mapping... 
Mechtech one word... impressive! 
Nice architecture and texturing, but the lighting looks flat - maybe take some cues from sock's maps to improve it? 
yeah my episode sucked too. i thought it was pretty good at the time though haha. 
I'm Sooooo Glad You Said That Kona.... 
I replayed the Alkado Crisis just before this "issue" raised its head and... not that it stopped me from being in awe back in the day :) 
Are you using minlight?

Those walls are crying out for some spotlights! 
I Think The Redbrick 
texture is very out of place. Looks nice except for that one thing really. 
Oh Putain Que C'est Beau !!! 
@Mechtech: wow.... really nice and awesome arch texturing... hats-off.. 
haha distans I didn't even know that episode was still online anywhere, I thought I'd eradicated it from all existence!

we all start out somewhere making crap before we get decent. i guess to get pretty good it could take a good 50-100 hours, depending on the individual and how patient they are to improve.

i wonder what some of the early id levels were like, because I bet there was some early stuff in the learning phase that didn't make the cut. what did they do in the first 100 hours of level development... 
Very Much WIP 
Some the the textures are from The Florentine Library by Sock. Still doing broad strokes. I want to get to the end, whatever that's going to be and fill in the monsters, lighting and skill specific stuff. I also want to find a good subtle fog setting. Any suggestions? using Fitz 
fog 0.02 
I had more then 100 and never got decent :p 
The models are nice, but they do look a bit flimsy when compared to the big rustic architecture of Quake. Got to thicken up the details a bit to prevent it from looking 'unnaturally realistic'. I think you could do some interesting things with the ceilings not typically seen in Q1 
Gotta agree with the comments about thin details looking wrong in quake.

Quake's combination of low-res textures and lightmaps, and lack of smooth light shading across polygon facets, all combine to make fiddly details look weird and wrong imo. Quake is best when painted in broad brushstrokes I reckon, although strangely the super-thin fence/bar stuff in czg's honey worked really well, so add the usual arse-talking disclaimer to my generalisation there. 
maybe this is just me but there are times where thin, tiny details can look good. 
I Try Not To Have Anything Less Than 16 Units 
but it does happen.

Usually these are minor details anyway. 
thinness can look good in quake.

In that screenshot, i'm not sure i can pinpoint the problem. One issue is probably that the thin bits aren't anchored to the rest of the scene in any way. Are they touching the floor? The pillars? I can't tell. Adding a thicker vertical post at each end of the fence and having that touch the ground in a believable way might help. Or adding some sort of metal bracket where they touch the pillar could work too.

One thing that helps make things look solid in quake is shadows, and when objects get small enough, they don't cast shadows anymore. This makes it harder for them to be believably in the scene. That's why a wider or thicker brush where the thin bit meets the wall or floor can help.

These aren't as thin as your brushes, but the principle is the same. I added a chunkier bracket thing where the thin poles meet the wall. The bracket is fat enough to cast a shadow. 
Tiny Update 
Less Bland 
Love The Trophy Above The Mantlepiece 
Looks rad. Not too sold on the terracotta pillars though. 
Screen Shot Spammi 
Oh Boy Mech... 
looks very promising. 
Love that fiend head above the fireplace. Looking good. 
mechtech: looks interesting but i'd relax the colours a bit, just make everything closer to white while keeping a little bit of the colour. 
Enough With The Screenshots 
A (hopefully final) beta of Titan1.

Requires Quoth, recommend Fitz.
Skill levels easy=more Quake hard=more Quoth
Try easy first, hard is hard.
Please email with anything. Email in profile 
Re: Shamblers Reviews Back In The Day 
I always saw it as not so much him being a prissy bitch liking one mapper over another rather than harboring bandwidth in general back when that actually cost a bit of money. I downloaded a lot of maps from his site (on dial up over 8 real world hours away) and I honestly have nothing but appreciation for him doing that on his own dime. If you wanted to see every 3rd rate map out there back in the day then that's what fileplanet was there for.

That being said fuck you Shambler for never even looking at my first offering. It made me stop mapping and start looking at maps too critically...

(actually none of that is true and it's just the pain meds saying that. I've never really put anything out there and I'm my own worse critic that even that priss Shambler couldn't put to shame.)

But I do like knowing how the game works which is what ultimately keeps bringing me back here reading what you insane fuckers have to say... So there is that I guess...

Fuck me my back hurts. Feet shouldn't be numb unless there's snow involved. 
mapping makes the fun go round,
money makes the frags go down. 
I wondered why I never saw the weather lightning in Quake. So I took a pix into fimg and ended up here.

As a static model keeps on going I stated the last frame on
self.nextthink = time + 10.0
which is a blanc frame so it isn't vissible.

So now I have a weather lightning within 10 sec.
breaking my head how to add sound and light simultaneously.

File is on quaketastic/models/ 
The great thing about it is that, just like in the real world, the light and the thunder do not ever have to match up and in fact should rarely ever match up (honestly, if they ever do IRL you are probably fucked). That means that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the sound lagging by up to 10-15 seconds from the modeled bolts and light flashing. It would be harder to attenuate the sound depending on the time between flash and rumble if you randomized the (x)(distance) factor.

Didn't one of the expansions have an ambient thunder thing going on anyway? Not too hard to do really if you think about it. One more pass in Light with a _sunlight of 500 or whatever for one or two frames and a rand_sun(x) worldspawn tag. As long as you don't get over 4 dynamic lights (so 3 plus the lightning) even Vanilla Quake should be able to handle that. 
As Hard As To Do 
I must agree I totally believe what you say.
My qc attention is less than thunderstood.

When I made my static entity I knew there couldn't be sounds or light attached to it.
Already glad a sprite appeared, now I'm trunked again wanting to add sounds and lights.
The lightstreaks could be animated better.

Ambience thunder relays me a sv_startsound not looped. 
I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm just giving you some input. Thunder would be, in my opinion, a great addition. I'm just looking at the technical difficulties and nothing more. Preach is probably the one to talk to on this. If anyone can hack that into it it's him. 
Lightning Flashes 
There's a little trick to make lightning flashes work with light cast from the sky.

void() skyl_stand1 =[ $0, skyl_stand2 ]{lightstyle(0, "z");};

void() skyl_stand2 =[ $0, skyl_stand2 ]{lightstyle(0, "m");};

The light from _sunlight and _sunlight2 etc is always style 0 (in any compiler I've seen anyway). So this will flash all non-animated lights. You might not actually want all your lights to flash - what about indoor ones that shouldn't be affected by the lightning?

Since you can't change the style of the sunlight, the trick is to change the style of all the other lights instead. Give every interior light in your map which doesn't have an animation the targetname "interior". Then make sure to never trigger that targetname. Hey presto, the lightning only affects outside! You can of course use extra lights that "count as" daylight by not setting the targetname on them.

To get the thunderclap, you just need to find a suitable sound effect - one that isn't looping. Then just add

void() skyl_stand3 =[ $2, skyl_stand4 ]
��sound(self, CHAN_AUTO, "effects/thunder.wav", 1, 0.01);

Lastly, you might want to try something like:

void() skyl_stand8 =[ $7, skyl_stand1 ]
��self.nextthink = time + 10.0 + (random()*5);

for the delay, so that it's a bit less regular and predictable. 
Thanks Preach 
I'm a bit of a dummy so how would that get plugged into a level? If it's a quake.C thing that's fine but I like to make no assumptions on what someone can or cannot do that aren't using very standard editing setups.

Have you ever thought of writing a new progs.dat with the .fgd to cover it? A re-release of the game if you would. You understand the code at the level of Carmack and what you know probably shouldn't get lost in this little tiny slice of the internet. 
Oh, Sorry Quaketree 
Those were intended to be modifications to the code that MadFox supplied with the model, they would make sense to nobody if you weren't looking at the QC file supplied. The step-by-step would actually be something like

* Get the qc file from MadFox's download
* Add it to a clean quake source file
* (Make the changes I suggested)
* Add skylight.QC to the list of files in progs.src
* Compile the mod

Not too bad, but you do have to get all the qc compiling stuff to do it.

I don't know how much you'd gain from rewriting the progs from scratch; you'd make a bunch of unintentional changes that would annoy people, and probably not get enough benefit in return. My plan is to keep posting things up on the blog to share any good stuff I come up with (and as a teaser I do have a fun bit of code in the works right now!) 
@quaketree - ever since I played the addon pack I had the feeling:
great, thunder but where are the skyflashes.

Now my knowledge lays closer to qc I can make that happen.
Great you give some feedback how to make that happen.
I'm just more dummy to understand how it works if I don't have the strings excact where they belong.

@Preach - Yes, that was the thing I'm looking for. Maybe had to ask it in the modelling post, but now I can tinker on with the code.

The lights were a mystery to me, but that's a neat fix.
I loaded the sound management from necros to see how to add sound, but my compiler failed.

Well, let's see how to make this lightning pak. 
Sounding Off 
You don't need necros' sound management in this case - that's for sounds that loop continuously without a pause (but that you can stop and start at will). The sound from the thunder can just be played each time the bolt strikes - the crucial difference is that it's ok for the sound to finish and go silent between lightning strikes. So you can just use the single line of code above... 
Right, the sound is great now, just lowered the looptime to 15 sec before it gets annoying.

I see the lightstrike is rather pale, and affects the light by dimming it.
Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about inside light, as long there are windows.

I suppose the light can't be brought back to not-lightned for an instance?

here is the file so far. 
though I think it would have been cool to have the lighting done as the lightning model used in the LG gun... Definitely a cool start though. Couple this with some rain fx (I'm sure there was a mod for that) and you could make a really creepy haunted castle/mansion map 
Returning To The Light 
The line:


is what's leaving the lights on. The letter in the "quotes" is saying how strong the light effect should be. Some examples:

"a" is pitch black
"e" is quite dark
"m" is normal lighting level
"s" is brighter than average
"z" is as bright as you can go.

So in order for the lightning to not be permanent, you need always end on a
not "z" like the current code does. 
@fithelfant - making the tesslacoil I used a bold beam to reach the player. Not so easy to make it a split beam. There is a beamcode in the chtong map, but it excludes doors.

@Preach -I see,
great to see those parms, shouldn't know where to look.
Good to make it go from dimm to bright.
Still it feels a little bleached.

I dug into the SOA code,
it uses a lightning code that can make it fullclear for a moment.
"TheCrypt" has an example, where I expected such eyecandy.
Timing will be a cripple problem with a static entity. 
Flash Gordon 
Updated the the weatherflash with on Quaketastic with sound and scattered light.

Although the framecycle for the sprite is 15,
in game it appears 17-32-47.
So there's a delay of 2 sec.

Trying to use progsref for adding a flash fails going out of pattern.
I think it's because the static entity is apart of the game engine.

Thanks for support, Preach! 
Re: Shamblers Reviews Back In The Day 
Quaketree - no bandwidth, it was hosted on PlanetQuake, so it took me time to do but no ���. No favouritism either, I didn't know who any mapper was. Just a straightforward desire to promote mapping that was equalling or improving what Id had done. It was a long time ago and I probably went about it in a fairly crude or tactless way but my motives were pure. 
Mechtech - Titan1 looks great, nice strong designs and funky details. I agree the frilly stuff is a bit frilly, I also think some textures could be toned down, but keep this one going for sure.
Titan2 is not my style, it looks like HL1 in the Quake engine. I can see some designs and ideas are cool but I think the style needs to be made more harmonious with Quake and it's monsters.

RingOfQD. Nicely detailed but please just go ahead and make a map!! 
Recently Gave GZDoom Builder A Try... 
...and this is what i have so far 
Those that have downloaded the test map. Let me know if it works. If anything is broken, if it crashes. The textures, lighting and layout are done. I am interested in game play breaking bugs. If it's done I'll finish the second map and be DONE.
The whole thing started with this level from Duke3d.
That was amazing back in the 1996

beta map 
Making Progress 
Looks Nice... 
Is this a Doom or Doom II wad? 
Doom 2 WAD, Fifth. 
nothing better than the double shotty 
First Release Preview: DARK CITY 

This will be my first public release, titled DARK CITY. It is intended to be a non-linear survival horror experience.

Beta to follow in coming weeks, time permitted. 
Screenshots are a bit bright and washed out. Maybe tone down the lighting a bit?? 
Can't See Nuthin! 
But at least the map is true to its name. 
must need to change my monitor setting or something. 
Not Necessarily 
Screenshots you take in game will always look stupidly darker when viewed later. Increasing the contrast and brigthness by about 15-20 tends to fix that. 
Like The Shots 
I should take both possibilities, that the map is too dark and that the screenshots are a misrepresentation, into consideration.

However, I might explain further that part of the non-linearity of the map stems partially from the need for players to activate electrical generators that turn on lights to reveal new areas. So in many cases I have to make sure that the light is dark enough that the player will not see or be able to access those areas until the have toggle the appropriate lighting. Perhaps this makes screenshots a bad way to go, lol. 
For brightness, just make a histogram of the screenshots, better than eyeballing it.

Though it will always be ridiculously dark, cause it's Quake. 
I'll try that. I also started using fade multipliers. Here I've tried extended the geometry and added ambient light: 
look fine to me. 
Looking Good Featheon 
excited to play this! 
Different gamma settings probably. They look fine to me too on Linux with a sRGB monitor. 
same here. also the last shot looks awesome. city map with metal textures?? yes please! 
I Know 
I still have it at about 70% done. Unfortunately, I had it tested and it needs a lot more work to smooth out gameplay and it hasn't been detailed at all. 
yeah on my monitor settings they look fine. It's calibrated but I assume most people's are and so it just comes down to different displays doing things differently. 
Remember the inside joke in the mce library... 
Ever notice how screenshots from professional games never look pitch black on anyone's monitors? :) 
But I Assume The Flispide Of That 
is that they do look overly washed out on some? 
a bit washed out to me, but my monitor is quite bright. 
look too dark on my monitor. and of course my monitor is correct and all of ya'lls monitors are wrong. 
Willem is on the money. If 99% of internet images look spot on brightness wise (to everyone) and 1% doesn't....guess which ones are wrong??

Quick Willem, post something retarded about modern gaming so I can start disagreeing with you again :P 
Hey, You Two... 
...get a room! 
Easiest Troll Of My Career 
Gamma Reduced 
Pics From Quake Episode 
Apart From 
....relatively bland wall detailing / textures, those get a thumbs up from me. I like the classic styles with a few tastier details. 
Nice Stuff 
First thing I can criticize in each shot, just with a glance, trying not to look too closely.

Shot1; Maybe give the steps a different vertical texture?

Shot2; small intense lights on the red runes could work, bright red with wait 4.

Shot3; are there lava balls jumping under the stairs?

Shot4; ambient_drip

Shot5; maybe pull and push some of the big green bricks in the main walls to break them up a bit.

It's looking very promising! 
Like The Vibe But... 
...why the change of tex halfway up the wall in 09? 
that's the waterlevel when it's flooded. 
Keep It Up Fifth! 
You're doing good so far! 
Ijed, Distrans 
# makes no sense to change the tex as these are brick tile things
# no coloured lighting in this as the original game had none (next stand-alone map I think I may do something like Stark Monstrosity with coloured lights and stuff)
# no, but thats a good idea
# already got my ambient drip there
# The detail in there is already much higher than the original game, I am almost tempted to *remove* some detail!!


Kinn kind of got why I changed the texture, a couple of my maps have the brown texture go grimier and greener the more you go down and get to watery bits. It still feels very id-like and quakey while bringing some freshness to the texture use.

Overall I'm actually looking forward to making some Sandy Petersen style maps most, they were weak on detail but had some toughness which I tend to prefer in maps. 
^ Awesome ^ 
It's Something 
very classic Fifth, keep the good work! 
Nice Link! 
Pixel Candy 
Some more progress with DP engine 
Sock ! 
Amazing pictures !

What is DP engine ? Wil I be able to run your new thingy on OS X ? 
DarkPlaces it is called, and yes there�s a port for OSX too.

@Sock, no more screens, we want releases!!
(Looking too good;)) 
And What About QuakeSpasm ? 
I'm playing with Quakespasm. Sock, will your little warrior thingy be playable on it too ? Hmm ? Don't drop QS ! 
I�d suppose yes, but without the Eyecandy:( 
@Barnak, In The Shadows will still work fine with any Fitz type engine (Fitz, MarkV, QS) and now it fully supports DP features as well. Obviously Fitz engines don't have much eye candy but the core gameplay/assets are still present.

@mfx, it will be coming out soonTM ! :) 
QExpo 2014! 
Anyone mind testing out my doom map?
Just add me on steam and i'll PM you the link. 
Playing With Textures. 
I made this nice room but decided that it was too similar in theme to the previous map textures so I gave it a lick of paint.

Before -

After - 
Much better. The rocks at the top break it up nicely. 
The walls are much better in the first one. In the second one the repeated green vegetation pattern becomes very obvious 
I agree with Spiritt. 
To Each His Own 
The repeated brick pattern bugs me much more than the repeated vegetation pattern. 
It needs less chunky and more detail, its the year 2014! :P

On a serious note, the lighting looks very flat and even across the room. Try to break the symmetrical torch arrangement by the doorway under the stairs. The banding of the textures looks too neat and tidy for the vertical space, the upper dirty bricks should extend downwards more and be uneven in vertical size. 
the episode was ment to look like id's original level design. 
Feedback is feedback, 5th can easily just ignore what I suggested if he wants. I think it is better to comment than saying nothing.

Id's original level design already exists, there is nothing wrong with adding your own flavour to things, otherwise its just a perfect copy. 
Feedback Is Fine. 
The idea is "like id did", but I think there are areas which are similar enough to the game that I may get a bit of negative feedback about (and already).
I've tried to make the lighting as varied as possible to mask the large flat walls. But it probably needs a few more tweaks. 
2nd Shot 
is superior 
Why not have the swamp bricks just along the waterline, like they've been affected by the water but the ones further up are dry. Could put some decals on the plainer parts of the wall too. Or even cage the torches off to create some cool lighting effects. The roof could have some lighting effects as well. 
Got back to extending the Daikatana menu...

Greebles, too much! 
I always loved the texturework in Daikatana 
I Like It Too! 
Neat work! 
Button Overload 
I need some brand new spanking skyboxes for my ITS mod and I downloaded the latest Terragen. Compared to the previous version I used years ago it sure has a lot of new menus and buttons to play with!

First try at a Terragen 3 Skybox, Moonlight Crater 
Excellent Color Choice! 
Not Used TG In Ages 
but I might have a tinker with it for fun 
Tried It. 
Don't like the new GUI... really confusing to me, reminds me of the new Kismet system for Unreal. 
Very Nice 
atmosphere reminds me of Zendar but with Quake purple sky (no wonder OTP liked it!) 
More Doom Stuff 
Looks Good 
so far. Keep it up! 
You have a thin stripe of brown bricks on the floor (second shot). Something tells me it wasn't intentional. 
Vaulted Ceilings And Splayed Archways 
Working on my brush techniques. Bright enough? 
Shadow On The Dragon Door Looks Too Black 
but other than that, looks great. maybe some chandeliers or rafters to break up the uniformity of the central vault? 
Agree On Chandeliers 
Pillars in the middle could go a long way too. Anything to create a little bit of parallax goes a long way. 
I Like 
The shadows cast by the wall torches. It's almost like some sort of fake AO effect.

I wonder if an AO technique could actually enhance the base quake aesthetic. All the big bulky architecture could possibly make it look really nice. It looks fantastic in Minecraft (I think they use some sort of fake AO effect there) and really makes the blocks pop.

I've never seen a Quake engine with AO and I can't force it on in any of the nvidia drivers for Quake engines.

Eh a bit of a tangent :) Nice shot anyway, agree with others re: door. It should be brighter. I think some ceiling detail is needed as well. Perhaps some supports coming down from the ceiling into the room. 
Brushes look good! But the torches, maybe try this 
Ambient Occlusion 
If you map using Radiant you could do a test with Q3bsp + Q3MAP2 inside FTE or DP, which has the 'floodlight' and 'dirty' compiler switches. Essentially a form of AO. It can also do bounced lighting. Otherwise just spamming a ton of large radius low intensity lights in a 3D grid kind of works, though it won't give you the high res crispy-outlines kind of AO. 
yeah that is bloody good, as as the chap says himself, it's fairly easy to spam a load of lights around like that.

That said, AO done in light.exe would be nice 
Knee Deep In Mapping 
That Should Be 
On the wiki. 
That looks great, and is basically what I was rambling about :)

Something like that works great outdoors, I wonder how it could be used for indoor stuff as well. Perhaps creating an array of minlights around prominent indoor light sources as well? I would have to test it but it could work. 
The shadows cast by the wall torches. It's almost like some sort of fake AO effect.

I wonder if an AO technique could actually enhance the base quake aesthetic. All the big bulky architecture could possibly make it look really nice. It looks fantastic in Minecraft (I think they use some sort of fake AO effect there) and really makes the blocks pop.

Unreal (1) had a nice effect that I always liked as it made things seem really solid - I think it just darkens the seams where polys meet in a concave way.

Also, q3map2 has the -dark switch, which

"Enables darkening of lightmaps at brush/lightmap seams. Sort of like a half-assed occlusion pass, ends up looking a bit Unreal 1-ish. Very subtle."

I'll add it to my tyrlight wishlist... 
It did make it virtually impossible to do rounded concave corners that didn't look like ass though.

I always assumed Unreal didn't pad edge pixels in the light maps, causing interpolation to leak in the black margins around the edges.
I'm not sure if that's what was happening or it had something to do with the light attenuation formula. 
if it always darkened edges the same amount it wouldn't be good, but if it took into account the angle between the faces and interpolated between vertices, it'd probably be pretty awesome. 
if it always darkened edges the same amount it wouldn't be good, but if it took into account the angle between the faces and interpolated between vertices, it'd probably be pretty awesome.

Yeah i assume it's shaded based on angle 
Chandelier LOL! 
I don't know if i can make a chandelier: 
I Think It Looks Ace 
The chandelier implies it's a housing environment, now it looks like it's asking for some more decorative elements... tables and book cases near the walls maybe? Floor rugs? Perhaps experiment with the lighting, making the chandelier the primary source? Maybe some wooden bars across the ceiling holding a secret? Just keep doing your thing, sir! 
What Spiney Said.. 
i like it! 
I wonder if an AO technique could actually enhance the base quake aesthetic.

Lun3DM5 has zero pointlights and 100-something sunlights. I really wish q3map2 supported Quake1 :( 
On The Topic Of Lighting... 
I think I might rely too much on "realistic" light sources (torches and lamps). Do you use fill lights often? If so, what kind of attenuation? I usually add a zero-fall or inverse light with low value to create AO effects like that. 
I did not read all above but DP has a software GI renderer since 2012 if I recall correctly. 
A few years ago I modded aguirre's light.exe to support AO without hand-placing hundreds of lights. The thing is that the "sunlight 2" feature already auto-generates hundreds of lights, but the code clamps the result so that everything looks flat. If you take out the clamping and reduce the intensity of each of those lights, you actually get something that looks like AO. However you need to improve the distribution of those lights to get equal light from all directions of the sky -- the default distribution doesn't spread the lights out uniformly since it doesn't matter when you clamp the results.. Problem: hundreds of really dim lights run into precision problems, so you'd need to do some changes to the intermediate math so you don't lose a lot of precision. But it does look good. I should probably clean up and release that code. 
Yes Please! 
yeah, i'd be interested in that too. i hacked in AO/GI with sunlights but I didn't change the light level data type so you'd just get integer junk which looked ok, but didn't give much control. 
AO Light.exe 
I would love to have a play with that light util if you get some time to release it metl! 
You Should Add It To Tyrlite Instead 
... I think. Is there a compiler roundup somewhere? 
The Grand Hall & Kitchen 
Wow Looks Good 
great work! 
Great stuff! !! 
I've been mapping a dungeon - this has given me ideas 
Nice indeed :) 
I think the transition from wall to ceiling is a bit abrupt, maybe another layer of trim would do the trick. Especially with the protruding wall columns. Maybe lower the brightness of the wall torches a bit and push it some more on the chandelier? The torch lighting trick linked earlier might also help sell the lighting more. 
Barrel Vault 
This was more evident in the old shot before you put a chandelier in front of it:

The curved ceiling in the first area extends all the way down the hall, but you cap it off with just a 45 degree slope. If you used the same barrel turned sideways & intersecting, the regular square ceiling tile texture would bridge across the seam with perfect alignment. 
Looking Good Featheon! 
Good Eye 
That's exactly what I ended up doing, Luaran. I decided to move on from that ceiling at that time because I have a tendency for myopia.

I have a mapping question posted in the help forum as well.

First Play Test 
This is the very first section of my map where I believe I'm ready to get advice on the difficulty and monster placement, etc. It is very short scene, but I tried to design it so that the player has a choice in how the approach the battle: 
Coloured Lighting 
I don't really use coloured lighting in Quake, for some reason it never seemed to work as well as in other games I've mapped for, but how does this look?:

I also just suck at lighting in general, which is why I usually make outdoor maps (heh, lighting Arcanum was such a pain in the ass). 
very 1997 ;) 
Honestly Tronyn 
that looks terrible.. Subtle is a word used often when it comes to colored lights, but not here.
Tone them down, and don�t use the whole palette, i would advice you to do, maybe even strip them at all and go with fog.. 
IMO lighting is the easiest part of mapping. Less is more is my motto, use less lights but use them effectively. Cast big shadows, make the light at the source nice and bright for contrast and don't over saturate the lighting to make things washed out. 
not feeling it Tronyn. Have to agree it is pretty OTT. minimalism isn't really your thing though... 
80's Disco! 
Or an N64 game...

Red should be bright red but any other colours should be closer to white, I use paint's colour picker to set values that play nice with quake's palette.

In the shot you've got a lot going on too close - you're going from red to blue and where they mix you get a muddy purple / pink that isn't doing the brushwork any favors.

Try an only ents where the blue is 192 192 255 and the red ones have a wait of 1.5 or 2.

Those are just hunches, I'm not great at lighting either. No doubt some of the masters here can give better advice.

Oh, and avoid using delay unless you want it for a specific special effect - it's like hotsauce, useful on the right meal, but you can't drink it on its own.

And if you like your hot sauce, you'll know there's a right time for the green or red, the matured, the smoked, the pastes and the smoked. Those being parralells for delay 1-5...

Yeah, I'm eating while typing this. 
Double Rainbow! 
Woah there!

There's just too many colours. I would remove all the different colours being emitted by the various stain glass windows. Change all the blue ceiling / floor lights back to white and just keep the orange candle light and uncommon red wall lamps.

Or even better, remove most of the candles and use normal light, and have the candles+orange light be a nice contrast. You could use the candles to draw the players' eyes to things. 
I'm gonna dissent a bit from what to change, although I agree with the general feeling it might be too much. I'd say lose the bright red light in the back, it's too distracting and has unfortunate 90's coloured light overdose connotations.

I'd also replace the dim blue spotlights. I can see where you're going with blue tones in the shadows and warm tones in the brighter light, but it's easier to do that with a slight blue tint to unsourced light and warm colours in the spotlights. Blue sourced light seems a bit odd.

Keep the orange candles, everyone seems to like them. I also like the blended colour effect coming from the downwards vertical spotlights, so keep that up. I guess there's something with stained glass going on from the right, but it's hard to judge if that's working from the angle of this shot. 
fuck that, make them more saturated!
and make the flash too!!

on a serious note, i find it doesn't matter what colour you pick as long as there's sort of one main colour of a room. then you can use a colour wheel to pick the second colour if you really have a hard time with just eyeballing it. 
This Could Be Useful;

Also, only make them flash if you can do it in time to the masic and maybe use some rotatings with alpha to make strobe laser effects.

+ white fog. 
Color Scheme 
Maybe you could stick to exactly two colors that could be mediated by white lights. Representations of dusk usually combine a light blue and tan, for example. 
Valve used to have a great article about use of color in Nova Prospekt. Can't find it now. There is this: 
Bucking The Trend Here... 
I think that IF (and it's a kinda big if) you are going for a more surrealistic look then it has possibilities.

If you're going for realism then just no. That lighting is totally wrong.

Think American McGee's Alice with odd floating bits for no reason other than to have them be odd floating bits (which may or may not be important to getting through the level). Have some fun with it and get a bit outside of the box with what you do. Be creative and people will respect you for that.

That being said...

Colored lights are very tricky, less is more in almost every case and if you do use it it has to be consistent across the entire level/episode (unless you use it to indicate a secret or some other important element). Look around the real world and there are very few instances where the lighting isn't white or close to it. Colored lights are used to attract attention but not for task lights or for everyday living (unless you live everyday in a LSD induced fog). 
Just NO. For the reasons above. 
I don't think the copy/pasting of pillars and details is working that well either? 
I like it! See some comments inside the demos.

Scale of the table felt off, that room needs detail too. Skill level seemed high normal or hard. Maybe have one knight patrol the big room? 
Disco Lighting 
I never realised how different things looked on different monitors.

On my normal screen it looks pretty bad because the colours come out saturated and therefore very artificial. However, when I looked at on another monitor with both contrast and brightness set high (and I mean way over the top) I thought it looked great because there were no saturated colours but the colour was still visible.

(do I remember someone releasing a discoQuake map where Ogres were dancing? I'm sure some collaboration would result in something er... different) 
what? I cant believe you even asked for an opinion on that :) 
You missed the secret passage in the fireplace, spirit. 
thanks guys
it was definitely very Quake2 (I had the blue lights from Warehouse in mind).
I'll post a subtler/modified version later. 
To Be Honest 
I quite like the way some of the lights mix into different hues, it just clashes with the Quake aesthetic (it does look very 1997, haha).
I think you should keep experimenting a bit more, never know what you might come up with. 
Some 2-Color Schemes 
Sorry I Don't Know How To Edit: 
The Terminator 2 movie evoked the colors of a California (polluted) sunset by using blue and orange color gels: 
Also, if you wanna switch it up you can use warm ambient and cold direct light. Mappers rarely take that approach. 
my favourite thing which is also really easy to do is to set sunlight/minlight colours.

Bright yellow sunlight + low (10-30) dark blue minlight can bring almost any outdoor scene to life.

Another interesting combo is sikly yellow sunlight + vibrant green (but 10-30 intensity) minlight. 
I thought minlight was the work of satan?? 
You�re getting it wrong, global minlight is still evil.
What necros meant is faking global illumination based on various additive lights with delay 5 and pretty small values (as above stated 10-30 produces best looking results). Those lights are called minlights from now on.
When compiling with tyrlight 0.14 use -addmin switch.
And -soft1 -extra 4.
Have fun!

Next time rtfay! 
well no, i do mean normal minlight. but 10-30 is very dark anyway. just enough to give the blue colour and it's dark enough that you can still get nice shadows.

it's only when your global minlight starts going over 50 or something that it starts looking bad because it's just too bright and all your shadows disappear. 
Can you add colour to minlight? 
with MH's version based on Aguire's you can. Maybe tyrlite too?

sunlight: _sunlight_color
sunlight2: _sunlight_color2
minlight: _color 
and actually... now i come to think of it, it's not the minlight you would add color too, it's sunlight2 because you only want the colored shadows outdoors which is what sunlight2 is for.

sorry about the earlier post! 
forget the shit i wrote, obviously i am getting it wrong:)
My anti-knowledge is self-embarrassing as fuck..
Necros is right, thanks for explaining, now my map needs some retouch i think.. 
Promise Keepers 
I abuse global minlight. My lighting abilities are abysmal so I use lots of monsters to cover that up. With your help I will light my next level properly.

In solidarity, and with Jesus' love. 
Good Lighting 
often means you have to make the lighting unrealistic or impractical for it to look nice. I will often obscure lights in a stupid way to cast shadows, in a real-world situation you'd be a maniac to do this but for a game it creates interesting shapes and can often disguise more simplistic geometry (id often did this for this very purpose).

Lighting large areas means putting a wide-area light (or multiple) inside the skybox, this is almost the same as having minlight as you get large coverage but you also get the advantage of dark shadows for contrast.

I find lighting the easiest part of mapping, the hard part for me is making interesting combat situations (especially when it comes to end of map combat as a big finale) 
Load Zendar In Fitzquake 
and run around it with "r_lightmap 1"

It might be that we're used to Quake having all white light, it might be that the palette doesn't work with a broad range of strong tints, or some of both, but there are really almost no cases in Quake that I can think of where even remotely saturated colored light (more than 10-20%) actually looks good. Maybe lava.

However, as with any lighting, subtle colors well-chosen can look terrific. This is true in any game, but especially Quake. 
Infinite Lights 
i've been having good luck with infinite lights: the shadow cast by the beam in the first shot, and the starlight in the second shot is from one point light on each side of the skybox (it's currently a map inside of a giant cube of sky..)

The red light from the slipgate in the first shot is probably oversaturated.
For the second shot, I need to do something with that wide swath of flooring, for both gameplay and visuals. 
Crate Labyrinth? 
That Second Shot... 
I like how you added transparency there. 
2nd Shot 
The brushwork and lighting is good, good work!, but ... the textures are a bit too different in there, the ones on the right look plain compared to the ones on the left that look colorful in comparison. It is like looking at two different maps.

And are you using blue fog? it goes well with the brushes at the bottom, but doesn't look so well for the sky. Maybe it is that i never got the fog right in Quake 1 ...

- First shot looks very promising.l Maybe some detail in the wall around the door, make one of the panels go 8 units out of it.

Where is the transparency? I can't find it, RoQ. I got interested.

- About Tronyn colorful screenshot, i agree with Quaketree there, could look good on an otherwordly theme or for a for the fun map. But above everythihg, keep trying, maybe you'll get something unexpectedly good.

I miss the experimental maps that we saw a lot back in the 90's, even those that looked terrible visually. Now the trend is professional looking maps. Not that it is bad, but more variety would be good. 
thanks for the feedback. The textures in the second shot do clash, it's sort of two bases in one map (an idbase-textured base, and a rusty ogro and speedbase textured base). I'll try to do something to fix the part on the right where the rusty wall panels are touching the idbase chunk.

There is a faint blue fog, yeah. "0.015 0.01 0.02 0.04" maybe it's too blue?

The bars of the ogre cage are a doom sprite displayed with a (quoth) mapobject_custom. I love sprites! Only problem is they render as fullbright, so you have to have a bright light on them to hide the fact. you can see the grill sprites by the slipgate in the first shot stick out because the brushwork isn't lit enough.

ijed, yeah a crate maze could be good, I'll try it out. 
I miss the experimental maps that we saw a lot back in the 90's, even those that looked terrible visually. Now the trend is professional looking maps. Not that it is bad, but more variety would be good.

Thank god we still have Madfox 8-) 
Madfox's Brushwork ... 
... isn't experimental, his layout is. His brushwork, more than classic, should be classsified as idish in style.

Recent examples of experimental maps, i would say, Nyarlahotep, ITS, Ascending as descending, sm170, sm172, etc.

I haven't goten any good lighting into these after hours of tries. I want it so the monsters are lighted when they go near the torches but are mostly in the dark the rest of the time, but i don't want to lower the torches even more. I suppose the answer is doubling the number of lights, but ...

Any ideas for this ceiling? Nothing i tried convinced me. The lighting will change in the future. 
if you can't figure out what to put on a ceiling, just cloak it in darkness! :D

for the first shot, there isn't much you can do to make better lighting there because the brushwork doesn't really allow for anything. if you had rougher stones and things jutting out that could cast shadows, that would certainly help.

for the second and third shots, try putting the light down by the base of the pillars instead of high up and put them in the little corner where there's the inset arch so it casts shadows. 
Chugging Along... 
looks like it's coming along quite well. one thing i really like about doom mapping is just how fast moving the whole process is.
just be careful with doing the lighting effects because if you need to change the area later, it can be really annoying having to deal with all those sectors. 
looks good.
I really should try doom mapping some time 
it's fun and easy to get into!
doom builder:
slade (in beta): 
Love Doom, don't really play too many custom maps though. 
I recomend GZDoom Builder. 
My First Quake Map 
I Dig It. 
I Also Dig It 
I Definitely Burrow This 
I'm excavating so hard right now! 
Seriously though that's a potentially interesting bit of topology for moving/fighting around, and I've always liked the mossy-block Quake texture set as being one of the "most Quake-ish". Keep fiddling with the lighting. 
Decent Stuff! 
The full version of that texture set has a lot more textures, but for some reason I don't have it in a cloud service anywhere.

I'll check on my local drives tonight for it. 
Those textures look really nice! 
Full Green Tex Set Plx 
Nice work on your first map there Brown96, keep it up! 
Please Do, Ijed 
* Brown96, that looks good. Work on the lighting and, that angled brush at the left, looks unscaled to me, but maybe it is the perspective. That many health packs make me think that it is for a big fight, so i got wondering which kind of fight culd be pulled there.

* Faethon, Mechtech, i have some demos for you. When i get some time i'll send you them with some comments with. 
My First Quake Map 
the healthpacks are modified with QuakeC. with another spawnflag, they give only 2 hp. there is a total of 48 hp and 100 armor to be had in this room, and you will encounter a total of 2 wizards, a hellknight, and 4 knights. given that the nailgun is found in this room with 75 nails, it feels "about right" for my skill level.

i still haven't messed with the lighting in the previous area yet. i intend to do so over the course of the next day or so. thanks for the feedback. 
Found the textures. I'll prepare a neatened up pack.

They were painted for RMQ and feature modified / expanded sets of the id1 textures for the most part.

Should I email them to you as well Spirit? 
Sure, I will upload them then. 
What Engine Is That? 
With reflective water!? 
I Like Brown, 
and green. 
RickyT23: It's DarkPlaces With R_water = 1. Nothing Fancy. 
Re: Shots Nice Oldschool Style 
reminds me of the Bad Dark Cistern a bit, or Round the U-Bend (hey negke and than, how about more Dm-for-SP remakes, such as dm2?). 
RMQ_Texture Wads 
Texture sets armed up and sent to spirit, you can also get them here:

The wads contain work by myself, Gb, OTP and probably some others.

The textures are based off the id1 textures and designed to fill out the gaps in the sets. Often there's a cool texture in id1 but you want to expand it into a style a bit more, which is what happened here.

The rotmet set is the one mentioned above, and is an entire texture set based on a single texture from id1; met14. 
these are really good, thanks for uploading them. :) 
They'll find their way into a release :D 
I'm on the fence on these textures, some of them are just extended versions of the originals (ie, someone has just copy and pasted the tiles to make them bigger versions of the exact same texture). Some are just badly sprayed on...

It's not all bad, but it's more bad than good. 
Some of the darkmet textures have way too pronounced shadows and highlights. Not to offend anyone, but they look amateur. "Bevel and Emboss"?

The techsludge wad is also questionable. 
There's some crappy sets in there, but there's also some useful, more finished ones. 
On The Other Hand 
Some of the redtech stuff looks really cool, a nice compliment to a regular idbase map at worst. Especially those hybrid red-trim-on-idbase ones at the start of the set... 
Recovered This From An Old, Old CD 
Except the second one.

Currently modifying the second to go more to the grid (it is a miracle it doesn't complain about the first, as there is almost nothing on the grid) and change lighting and balancing. Probably, I will use it later for some single player map.

* About the textures, fist of all thanks to Ijed for uploading them. Second, i do think they are a nice addiction to id textures maps, there is one third that are questionable or just cheap as some of you already pointed out, but the rest can add a good variation to id textured maps.

The redtech one is going to be on one of my maps for sure. It is a pity that i don't like runic theme, as there is some textures for details quite usable. 
On Textures 
bluemet has some utility, even if they are simply tiled version of the original.

darkmet has the best additions.

Salvage the best of those two and release a single wad.

redtek is just awful. Horseshit brown is just about the last color I look for in a sci-fi atmosphere. 
So, mrs Vore, what colour do you want to paint the dungeon?

Dogshit brown?
Cowpat brown?
Mouldy brown?
Horseshit brown?
Manky Brown?
Smoky Ochre with hints of brown?
Stale Coffee Brown?
Third eye brown?
Crate brown? 
... Just Simply In 
brown... that would make the deal ;) 
one time previously I said this and it worked, so I'm trying it again. 
Ok Then 
Ok So, Con Queso 
OMG lol 
Great Shots Btw! 
At This Rate We Will Know All About Your Maps Before Playing Them 
No, they�re huge. Well at least Ijeds, my shots are from two maps. 
Then You Won't Have To Play! 
Apparently It Still Works 
beautiful stuff you guys! 
Ok Then 8-) 
Good Job, Tronyn 
Ijed, that way i don't have to record a demo. Less work for me. :D

Those shots look very nice. Awesome stuff indeed, even thought i still don't like the brown brick texture, but now it looks better than in your previous shots.

* Ceci02: that fog looks good. How you did the distorted effect on the teleporter? Looks eerie.
* Ceci03: mixing a construction with a natural environment is something i always liked, and in this one looks nice, it shows, but there is room for imagination on what's farther up.
* Cecia08: that looks amazing, it makes me remember of some UT maps or of the most interior room in the alien caves in Forbidden Planet (the first one, of course).
* Ceci09: that provides a nice contrast with the rest of the map, with those white bricks.
*Tfrag01: that water texture that end in an unexpected place?
* Tfrag05: in the vicinities of the central pilar it looks impressive, as if there were something incubating in there, but when the rest of the brushes are pitch black, the lava looks like if there were some bug in there. Maybe with some brightness 30-40 delay 1 lights ...
* Tfrag11: i love this, i love the fluids tank.
* Tfrag14: after so many good looking small places, this ample place adds a good variety and it feels like a breather. 
The effect on the slipgate are thin layers of multiple func_illusionaries, with decreasing alpha values. Starting at 0.5, to 0.1 i think.

Not recommended, as this is purely a visual effect, and eats too many efrags. 
nice work :) 
Its rubicognak! Cheers! 
Excellent stuff, all of you. 
Thanks For The Comments 
tfrag1 - waterfall
tfrag5 - Yeah that area is an unfinished secret, based off the altar secret in The Nameless City.
tfrag11 - It has some functionality not apparent in the shot, you might have to play after all!
tfrag14 - I avoided showing the other outdoor areas since I'm still tweaking them heavily for visuals. 
Uh Oh 
It seem that there's rubicon fever going on in this thread! 
Cross the Rubicon... 
Go On 
and make a ikwhite fever to counteract it. 
locust4: please, please, use those ceiling girders to cast some sweet shadows! (please!) 
All Look Great! 
that response was off the hook - thanks guys!

These shots are exciting. Rubicon 2 was awesome, and it had that "partial conversion / mission pack / slightly new version of Quake" feel, so I'm really looking forward to going back to that world.

If you guys are all using the Rubicon2 mod, you should just link your maps together into a giant "Rubicon 2 - 2" episode and release it during QEXPO. Or maybe you are already doing this and it's a conspiracy. I am now going to stop making annoying suggestions and go map. I will post some shots in the near future. 
oh btw, kingpin textures look good alongside rubicon! 
It's Called 
The Rubicon Rumble Pack 
Oh Dear... 
...after Hrim's second shot I just stopped. I'll be upgrading my system to guarantee playing this lot. Rubicon2 and variants forever!!! 
Nice Work You Guys 
really cant wait to play them! 
Necros Is Correct 
What texture set is that OTP?? 
If that's multiple sets then you've done well, it looks good. Kinda doomish. 
jf2, Kingpin, Doom 2, cr8, and Jackboot. I try to learn from the best texture mixers (aka distrans). 
Hi All, I Just Made My First Map Release For Doom 2! 
omg woodmet!

also, make a news post about it ring. 
Reposted On My Blog Ofc.... 
Pretty good map. IMO I think it suffers a little from not enough ammo near the beginning and also it's quite tough, I never realised that the Revenants rockets tracked the player until I played this map. 
Plus it's a bit too linear, could have done with a couple of branching paths. 
Thanks, Fifth. 
I got some recommendations from the guys over at the ZDoom fourms and I fixed some misaligned textures and an area were the player can jump onto the crates and over the fence to get the blue key. I've uploaded V2 of the map btw. 
pretty cool map, but what 5th said.
Needs more ammo. 
Someone Need To Switch To Thief DP-ThiefTMA 
RoQ: Overall a nice little map for a first release. Demo recorded with ZDoom 2.7.1 - not sure if it works across quickloads, though.

Q1SP screenshots: Cool. 
I Was Bored And I Made This: 
Progress Of A Sort... 
Cool, i like the 1st shot. 2nd shot also, but the wooden beams at the stairs don�t make sense. 
That wood needs a lot of realigning on the smaller sides. 
^^^That Nickname 
needs a lot of imagination on both sides:) 
If you don't finish that beast of a level I will cut you.

So many screenshots :O Looking good! 
In this case I'd agree that a bit more alignment might be good, and wouldn't distract from the ID1 stylization going on. Agree with mfx too about that particular wood seeming somewhat out of place in shot 2.

1st shot atmosphere is rad, can't wait to play it! 
When is the QExpo anyway? 
The map has a lot of wood trims so that's unlikely to change much. Alignment is something I usually stick on top of as the map progresses, though I will be looking to get the next couple of maps tested before I do a second pass. The second pass usually involves refining everything and adding a few extra secrets (so the people who tested have a little extra something once it's released). 
Rubicon Screenshot Megadump. 
All looks great. HTH. x 
Rubicon shots look very cool, i'm excited to see this megapack when it's released.

P.S. regarding <a href="
">this screenshot</a>, you should give r_oldwater 0 a try :) 
P.S. regarding this screenshot, you should give r_oldwater 0 a try :)

Failed at my own messageboard 
why did you default that to on? i always looks worse. :( 
probably a mistake.

My philosophy when working on fitzquake was that it was a drop-in replacement for glquake -- lots of people using broken glquake, so let's give them an engine that is better, but has the same defaults for cvars and stuff so their hand-crafted configs still work.

Another example is gl_flashblend, which still defaults to 1 in fitzquake. Notably, both of these cvars default to the higher performance setting rather than the higher quality setting. This is due to targeting the same hardware specs as glquake, which at the time was reasonable.

But this is a new generation of players at this point, and most people get recommended fitzquake who just installed quake from steam or are coming from a different custom engine. And they have much better computers. So I really should change all the cvars to give the best looking experience. 
I should really finish that secret. All the testers are disappointed when they find it, and oh back at least once, thinking I can't possibly have left something unfinished...

Oldwater? Ok. Don't remember what that does...

I miss r_lavaalpha, r_slimealpha, r_telealpha. 
everyone who uses fitzquake or quakespasm should turn r_oldwater off (set it to 0). it makes the water texture warp completely smoothing (like it did in software quake). 
nothing much here (hopefully some actual screenshots in the next few weeks, as I am finally about to have some spare time), but anyway:

q2warehouse-ish coloured lighting shot previously posted:
version with no coloured lighting:
The more I think about it, the more the second one looks more "Quake." Btw it is a bitch to light those white textures especially in a level with no global minlight.

I was going for foreboding:
and a random editor shot of more fleshy life forms interfering with things: 
The more I think about it, the more the second one looks less "Regurgitated disco horror."

Definitely better. 
use fullbright pixels on the lights???

and yes, please go in the no-colour direction! <3 
Both Are Good In Their Own Way 
Of course wihtout colour is more Quakey, we are more accostumed to that in Quake. Provide both versions, if someone doesn't want the colour, he has it easy just by removing the .lit file

In the coloured version i like the violet coloured glass at the left. I think that more subtle colour in the rest of the lights is better for Quakey feeling. Non-coloured shot feels a bit dull, maybe it is just a feeling i have after seeing the coloured version, maybe it is because it is mostly black and white textures, maybe it needs stronger contrast in shadows or some spot that calls you to look at.

The third shot is perfect. don't change it. It feels like a shot from a recent high-technology graphics game.

Fourth is good too, maybe the texture used in the inner part of the window at the right ...

RingofQuaddamage, i can't give you a decent opinion as the last time i played Doom was 20 years ago, but those look good, maybe less of that brown texture. 
no color looks way better, but i like the idea of just providing the lit file, for the colorblind under us;)

And that fleshy thing is cool, reminds me of Zerst�rer maps. 
Nocolour Shot Is Better 
but the lighting is a bit dull. 
Colored Lighting 
quake doesn't have to be black&grey only. i like colored lights, just make them less intensive. only mild color tint here and there would be enough. 
Pretty Great Stuff 
there from tronyn. :) 
even to us colourblind, the coloured version is a rainbow overload. no colours pls.

bw3 is a work of art though! 
I still claim that a two-color light scheme could be used to great effect. Too bad I don't have any engines with colored light to work with.

Look to James Cameron's lighting techniques and try it again. 
No Colour 
Personal preference 
Work Continues On My Mini-mod! 
Not a big fan of "smooth" lighting in Doom. Most of the time it doesn't look nearly as natural as lightmaps, but it eats a lot of sectors.

Just a personal thing, of course. 
Considered swapping the cave textures for something slightly brighter and less noisy? 
Who wants to test the Rubicon Rumble Pack? 
Sure, I Would Like To. 
Just send me the DL link by PM in steam. 
Best start map ever. Just wanted to get that out :) 
don�t spoil me 
is this a custom texture set? I dont recognise it 
Wow, nice ! Gives me desire to play Doom again now ;) 
I am using community chest 44 textures (by various people) deconstructed textures and a sky from Vrack 3. 
More Wip 
Looks Nice! 
That somehow reminds me of the first room in Wolfenstein. 
I'm Making Something For MAYhem2048 
All Doom maps look the same to me. 
because of limitations of the engine or because custom textures are more rare in doom maps? 
It's simply because if you don't play a game, you're not familiar with the nuances of its custom content. Someone not playing Quake would feel the same way. Which is not to say that of the vast amount of custom levels there aren't indeed many generic parts that look alike. 
Partly probably that but I mostly blame the lack of brushwork and lighting. 
Yeah well, Doom doesn't work like Quake at all in that regard. You can do nifty architectural stuff in Doom but nothing too complex. 
Have you tried out some of the newer Doom engines? I personally like Risen3D and some of the maps made for it, especially the Egyptian themed one. If I were the type to give ratings I'd easily give it a 9 out of 10 (nothing ever gets a 10 in my book because there's no such thing as absolutely perfect). 
I recently tried some stuff for Risen3D. Felt like going back in time to the mid-00s, when it was all about making Doom look "modern" without much consideration for exploring its strongest points. The models are straight from that era, very little has changed.

Although it's probably wrong to judge by one level that I didn't even finish. 
10 doesn't have to mean perfect. It can mean, "Has my highest recommendation". Making 10 mean perfect means your scale is from 1-9. With 9 being perfect. And down the spiral we go!!! 
Turn It Up To 11. 
Nuff said. 
Risen3D is not available for Linux and looks buttugly. Thanks though! 
"10 doesn't have to mean perfect. It can mean, "Has my highest recommendation". Making 10 mean perfect means your scale is from 1-9. With 9 being perfect. And down the spiral we go!!!"

I blame my navy days for that. Nobody got a straight 4.0 evaluation from me, including myself (yeah, I had to evaluate myself which was kind of pointless really). Nothing is ever perfect and I'm always distrustful of any score that says something is perfect. If you can't find at least one fault with something, no matter how small it may be, then you weren't really looking at it.

I'd have to say that there are very few things that get that level of scrutiny and attention to detail. Generally speaking the worst enemy of good enough is trying to be the best, that usually means that nothing is ever finished because you're too busy polishing the cannonball to actually get it loaded and doing its job.

So yes, I suppose my scale is actually 0-9 out of 10 (which is still a scale of 10 if you think about it). 
I used to really prefer the rating system of 1-5 in the old CVG mags.

1. Poor
2. Average
3. Good
4. Very Good
5. Excellent

With this rating alone it would still make you want to read the article because it still feels less scientific than percentages or marks out of 10.
Plus CVG used to have a call out box with a second opinion on the game.

I really miss that mag, it was the greatest. If a game feels like it should somehow be worse than 1/5 they used to put little turd symbols all over the place. 
Now THAT is what Func_Msgboard needs. Every post that I have ever made needs that as an icon. Instead I'll use a crate, which is a sort of turd-ish thing seeing as it just sits there, takes up space, and is not something that people want to see. 
Just The One Screenshot... 
I have a problem... my "quake like id did" is become a little bit more detailed than I intended... Oh well. 
It's looking pretty sweet regardless.

Do you have any particular "rules" that you're trying to operate by, or are you more or less going by feel? (I remember that the DTWID guys really went hog-wild trying to figure out concrete aspects of the specific design styles of various Doom map authors.) 
Not Really JL 
I am making this entirely on my own and I don't really want to spend any time going through the minutiae of each mappers style. Generally speaking most of the maps in Quake could have been made by any of the other maps, *except* Sandy who had an almost doom-like style to his maps. I'm not even sure if I will end up finishing much beyond the first episode.

That also brings me to something else, should I release each episode as I complete it? 
Sounds sexy. I'm ready. 
I like the clean look of it... like if Id had spent the time making sure everything lined up neatly. 
IMO you should release episodes (or even individual maps) as soon as you are happy with them. 
That Shot Looks Very Nice 
Its more detailed and clean than previous maps, maybe even to nice, compared to the others. Not that they aren't pretty in their own way, but this is different, obviously, and might stand out as such. The nice details within the map might slightly undermine the aesthetic of the pack overall... Then again, as a personal project, whatever. I'd also be worried that the project could get extended/distended if you start feeling the need to do that consistently throughout, if I were you.
I'd say that considering the relatively quick pace at which you made the previous maps, it would be a better pay-off to release episode-by-episode, or, if you can make yourself wait that long, until the whole project is 'finished' - whether that's a 'megawad', or 2 episodes, or whatever.
That being said, one or two maps released early could, depending on your work/motivation style, give you the impetus to keep going at a fairly quick pace... 
who, other than myself, after a long day at work, and hoping to be constructive but worrying he is just rambling, writes like that? It is, I feel fairly safe generalizing on this point, a super fucking annoying way to write. 
All too recognizable, I start rambling trying to articulate trains of thought. Rereading afterwards makes me realize I could condense stuff into a third. I even piss myself off reading some of my crap. Lol. 
Yes Totally, (long Winded) Story Of My Life 
... Or whatever. 
Something's Changed With Func... 
Trenchbroom Tutorial Video 
I decided to create a tutorial video, this is a test. I would love some honest feedback on it, I want to create a series of vids which allow someone with zero level design experience to easily learn how to map in a short space of time. 
This Video Is Private 
Ok I set it to unlisted public. 
First Impressions 
Do an intro. Something that lasts 10 seconds and has a logo with a cool name.

Script it; you tend to repeat words a bit. Even if you throw the script out you'll be more fluid and comfortable because you have practiced.

Divide it into sections;
Editor Setup
At the start of each of these would be a good place to show your cool logo again as a type of intermission. This will help users pause, come back to it, try things out etc. and keep their mental place in the video.

Don't start with the func page - this should be something towards the end 'you can get help here'.

Show a map in the background near the start before you get into the detail, like 'You're going to be able to build this by the time we finish'.

Finally, finish with a preview of what the next video will contain. Maybe even break it up into lots of shorter videos covering the various topics above. This would allow viewers to jump back and forth and get to the video that explains the problem they're having. 
First of all, thanks for supporting TB, and a tutorial video is certainly quite welcome.

That said, I agree with everything ijed said. The video needs more structure and a script. I think if you plan ahead a bit more, you can make a much better video.

Also, I noticed that you don't use orbit at all (Alt + RMB drag on an object). I think you it would do your editing speed wonders if you try and use orbiting more. I myself never look around without orbiting anymore - it's just so much more useful than strafe + look. 
I actually created a bunch of tutorial vids with a friend about a year ago and they were much better than this. He helped me do all the structuring and scripting (he makes films), but he's also very slow at making stuff and terribly unreliable at releasing things. I'm basically throwing myself into the fire by trying to make videos (I spent 3 hours trying to figure out why I was getting lots of noise and feedback on my mic).

The reason I posted my test video here was to get feedback on what I need to work on. I wanted to make the first video a very quick "set up and make your first map", I find if you get very quick results and feedback from learning something new then you'll want to stick at it. If you have to watch several hour long tutorials without getting any kind of results or gratification then the time invested will feel wasted for the pupil.
Getting that first hurdle overcome will mean I can spend more time helping people refine their ability with TB.

As for using orbit, I generally forget about it most of the time. I find the tool very situational due to the nature of mapping for quake. If it was solid space mapping that back culled the outside faces then it would probably feel far more valuable to me. I'd much rather have a forward/backward movement that I can make as fast or as slow as I wanted (and smooth rather than the incremental feel that it has now) and a smoother strafe. 
Q3bsp With Pixlz

Did a test for someone about making a pixel art FPS.

Map format : FBSP (512x512 lightmaps, dirtmapping)

Texture format: 32x32 TGA file, RGB (but indexed to quake palette along the way), using an image by Moondrunk

Torch from SJ. :-s Sorry, I was too lazy to make huge square particles, but it's quite possible.

Engine: FTE (SJ) 
Why does everyone think that pixel art is about big square pixuls and nothing else? 
The torch looks sexy, really. 
Beware Of The Stairs 
M.C.Escher style is great! how do you navigate in there? Are you rotating the whole thing in game?
Or..? Just curious 
there's probably no real good way to navigate that in the fashion you would like to. I could imagine a set up using portals in unreal but it would have been tricky to do. 
yes, Madfox gets even crazier!

Will your trademark animated machines be included?

I have yet to see any game pull off an escher-esque environment (ie people shooting at you from different alignments) - I think Prey was probably the closest. 
-@mfx :
I saw the quake level of the villa of Escher and became so pleased that I wanted to try the other. Print through the animation master, I found a project of Buce Vo, which had a 3D version of it.

Although it looked complicated, I made a model of Pepacura, and I was a little obvious. After I came out a couple of times drunk out of GtkRadiant I began to shift sections. Turning parts can work, but it pointing my eyes to my nose.

-@5thfant :
It looks a bit, but sometimes it is difficult to. Using wrong buttons if the screen is vertical, putting a ladder against the ceiling.

@-Tronyn :
Good idea, from now I'm thinking in func_trains that go my misfits way. Why not make it a giant harmonica that jugs from top to button like a LunaParc? 
MP Level "Paradox" In SIN 
That pulled off the "escher-esque environment" pretty well.

Or is this single player only related? 
Speedy Textures 
I tried my hand at textures a few nights ago:

From a picture of a rusty baking pan, I cut out horizontal bars and applied bevel/emboss to each one.

The cool part is you just use the eraser to make the worn/distressed bits and the bevel/emboss as automatically applied.

Slap on some grime and blend as you wish, shrink, sharpen, adjust hue/saturation and brightness contrast, index to quake palette and BAM, speedy textures.

This set took about 1.5 hours total.

Now that I know how to make textures I'm going to experiment with less generic designs. 
Beautiful! You might want to team up with , which looks super promising. 
Really interesting and nice texture set !

Keep it up ! 
Standart Photoshop effects such as Bevel and Emboss are cool for some quick results. Although it's quite important to not rely on them too much. Sometimes they can be a bit too obvious.

Ah, Inside3d. I noticed it's quite hard to get there. After around 2 months of waiting I finally gave up hope that my account will be activated in the current decade. 
@Spirit, thanks!

@JPL, for the amount of time, thought and effort that went into them I think they turned out pretty good.

@dwere, agreed. However, using any effect or method injudiciously will look amateur.

If this was anything more than "learn how to make textures" I would have fixed the glare atop the "1138" sign to dim as it moved away from the light source, among other things.

I also understand these textures are about the easiest to make: Simple, geometric shapes with a noisy surface in shades of brown... kinda hard to mess that up. 
dwere: Your account should be enabled now. 
Why, thanks! 
Well, i�ve been waiting much longer now for a account there, and gave it up finally.
My questions were answered without account.

@KillPixel Cool textures you made there, i like the rusted pan "approach". made me smile. 
dwere, I fixed the rendering glitch for your model:

I'd like to ask on inside3d if the change I made is reasonable, I basically just randomly removed a 0.5 offset from gl_mesh.c, and the results looked good :-)

KillPixel: nice start on the texture set. 

They probably added this offset for a reason. But no matter what the problem was, their solution seems rather hacky.

Thanks for bringing attention to this oddity. 
my guess is 0.5 puts a vertex on the center of a pixel, rather then the vertex being on the corner of 4 pixels. I can't say why it's there unless it was to emulate winquake, and obviously you're saying it doesn't. 
Green Shift 
Looks Nice ROQ :) 
The 0.5 Change 
Bear in mind you're gonna make some people unhappy by changing that 0.5 pixel offset - for example sock took advantage of it on some of his models to create "half-width" highlights on a skin at double the resolution the skin size normally allows details. The Quoth .mdl format ammo models are also textured with the assumption that UVs sit at the centre of the pixel - which prevents them being a pixel perfect match to the bsp versions, but they're gonna be a whole pixel adrift on the right hand edge after the patch.

If you say it's closer to winquake then that might justify it, but just be warned that the GL rules might have become the defacto standard in the mean time...even the software renderer in QME uses the centre point. 
Re: 10914 
that makes a huge difference. 
God, I hate GLQuake. 
Good Point Preach 
Yeah, I guess glquake's behaviour for the texture alignment is probably more of a de-facto standard than winquake's at this point 
This "different standarts" situation is rather sad. It pretty much eliminates the idea of pixel-perfect detailing. Even if you align everything for one engine, it will look like ass on another. 
Probably Should Be A Cvar Then ... 
Cloudy Pixels 
Sock working on a quoth map?! Nowai 
Keep it burning! 
This "different standarts" situation is rather sad

I feel like I just had a discussion with someone about this.

also: yay sock 
if every GL-based engine uses the 0.5 offset, and QME (the only native authoring tool for quake models?) uses the same offset, then it seems like this is probably worth keeping.

Probably if you want to "fix" this you should have a cvar that can restore the behavior of all other GL engines, since a lot of content has been made now with qME and tested in a GL engine. In fact what content HASN'T been made with qME? 
Yeah, glquake and winquake are just incompatible in this small way. I'd give the tiebreaking point to glquake, only because winquake alias rendering has a bunch of artifacts when it renders far away models and large polygons - the distortion is very high. It's harder to make the case for an exact standard based on an inexact renderer - even though it has seniority.

Disclaimer: I may be biased, on account of having carefully accounted for the glquake behaviour on several models and tools, not knowing that winquake behaved differently.

ps: Loving those force-field walkways sock! 
Yay Sock 
fuck, you're just so good at this!

Also Lunaran, what ever happened to the grimy medieval map you posted shots of years ago? 
Sock, that looks awesome. 
Jesus' Ringpiece 
Sock, you've made look that even more fucked up and cool than what Neggers does with space maps. Sweet. 
Was Gonna Say 
Kind of a Negke vibe. 
yay socks back and has been mapping all this time!

never been a fan of floaty space maps, but it looks sweet. fog is very atmospheric. 
Socks New Map 
has the most notes of any map I have posted on my quakeguy blog and I only posted it a couple hours ago (35 notes so far) 
For An Upcoming Zdoom Jokewad Called WOOO 2 
Glad To See 
sock is back 
Stop being the better negke! 
Stop being the less productive sock! 
Stop being a mean Scampie ! 
... And Forgot To Mention... 
Sock: the shot is awesome ;) 
Nice pic Sock, look fantastic 
Also Lunaran, what ever happened to the grimy medieval map you posted shots of years ago?

it turned into five of them, with new monsters. dear god somebody help me 
that's the problem I find, it's more fun to build stuff and then expand it than it is to finish it

still I'm definitely looking forward to it 
Delete And Start Over Again 
is what i am doing
like this:
no clue, but theres rivets yeah!!

jfrust42 is the answer, like 42 is the answer, like you know the numbers..

and after all we�re only ordinary men... 
Thats Pink Floyd? 
anbd the the texture is jf2rust42..
Metal Mixup 
I can see the similarities to Lower Forecourt but the inspiration of this map is from playing MFX's latest map Klein's Bottle. I really liked the abstract architecture and bright floating void feeling. I have never been a fan of black void maps, it just seems a waste of a good skybox opportunity to me.

Didn�t Sock say he was retiring from Quake maps?
Technically I said I will not be doing anymore vanilla Quake maps. I am still working on my ITS mod (very slowly) and I have always wanted to play with a tech themed AI set which Quoth is a good fit for.

that's the problem I find, it's more fun to build stuff
This is exactly where this map came from, a desire to play with abstract architectural shapes surrounded by a cool skybox. The map is technically broken because it lacks any kind of portal/vis data and will only run on a good pc. It seems there are still people running Quake on old pc hardware and this map will be a slide show for them. It might be better to leave this as a screenshot rather than any serious release. 
People Will Be Mad If You Dont Release... 
Especially those 60+ likes I got on tumblr when I posted the image ;) 
I�m Honored 
to have inspired you sock, you inspire me too!
Peace! Release it, come on. 
60 likes? Pff, I got 130!!!!!!1123

Still looking for ACTIVE volunteers to join the page, I lack talent at recruiting people who like to post stuff... Join now to gain a lot of internet power and fame. 
Wait... posting on func_msgboard is the secret Captcha for activating an account? That's even more selective than NeoGAF! :-) 
Quake Like Id Did - Dilemma 
I am at a dilemma, I started work on making the secret map for the first episode of "quake like id did" and it was going to be a low grav map. In-fact I was going to probably do 2 or 3 low grav maps in total, but I have learned that on standard quake it has to be named e1m8.

Here's the dilemma choice -

1. Have no low grav maps.
2. Name the map e1m8 and have just one low grav map.
3. Have multiple low grav maps and use quoth.

I don't want to do #1 really. If I do #2 it means we get just the 1 low grav map like in vanilla quake. If I do option #3 then I could have a normal mode, a hard mode and a quoth mode (aka "quoth like id did"). I don't know how much of a pain in the butt it would be to balance for a vanilla mode and a quoth mode though.

Any thoughts? 
#2 sounds good to me! But it's not like I'd lead a pitchfork-mob to your castle if you do something else. 
with mob! 
Don�t Worry Too Much 
as i assume there is a workaround for your problem.
Negke can help you for sure.

add 'gravity' to worldspawn for custom gravity setting. 
Do I Trust This File? 
Is it going to replace all the enemies with spawns? 
that would take more effort than actually doing the custom gravity thing. 
I Doubt It Would Take That Long To Do... 
which reminds of this mod that fixes every single aspect of quake.... 
Option #2 is closest to the map pack title of "Quake like ID did it" IMO. I thought that the original concept was just to jazz up, expand and otherwise tweak the original levels as if ID had all of the time in the world to make them instead of being under a deadline to get it out the door.

Now that may mean that they might have added more secret levels with low gravity (I would think that that little extra bit of fun would have been something that they would have made the player have to work for before they could play it no matter what) but as it stands there is only e1m8 hard coded into the original engine which to me says that the "The way ID did it" part of the title means that that was a conscious decision, after all once the engine allowed for low gravity it would have been just as easy to make it a worldspawn entry.

There is a simple workaround, if you are willing to make each episode it's own standalone mod in its own folder you can have four secret maps named e1m8 with low gravity without changing anything in the engine or progs.dat. It's not like anything carries over other than the episode gates anyway (the sigils too) but that's just to activate the episode gates and allow entry to the final boss battle with Shub and there is a simple workaround for that too by simply making it tie into the final exit in episode 4.

The main downside to this is that it forces the player to take each episode in order instead of allowing for them to pick and choose (and the Nightmare skill teleporter might have to be moved).

Just my 2 cents... 
Oh, And... 
A quick scan of the progs.dat that necros posted looks like all that changed was that all of the "Official" map names (e1m1 through e4m8, all of the DM maps 1-6, Start and End maps) now allow for gravity to be set. I also didn't see what I saw in the joke progs where all enemies were turned into spawns. Adding a custom progs.dat is not an issue and to be quite honest you would have to do that anyway because if ID had unlimited time to roll out Quake they would have caught the fish kill count bug and fixed it anyway so no harm, no foul. 
Quake came with a custom progs.dat, so why shouldn't your map pack? 
I don't know what that prog fixes. I have no coding skills so unless someone donates a fixed one then it will just be the low grav... 
The idea isn't to spruce up all the id maps but to make an alternate universe quake. I kind of regret calling it that since it definitely feels much more detailed. I don't even think it will run on the original engine. 
I Don't Even Think It Will Run On The Original Engine. 
If you don't mind asking, why not? Unless you're breaking the original engines limits that is. If so I get it and I completely approve (not that my opinion matters a bit of course).

One of the things that I forgot to mention in my previous post was that I almost positive that your project would break the limits set by the hardware of 1995, and why not? That was one of the issues that ID was facing and why there was a much more blocky layout.

I think that any Quake level should still have that blocky feeling (at least in the background) because that's part of what classically defines it (and the original models wouldn't look right if that blockiness wasn't there anyway) but with todays tools, engines and hardware there's no reason to not get a bit more detailed or add more surfaces to draw at once even when you know for a fact that it's going to break the original limits

I was under the impression that you were going to basically keep the general tone of each level, add some new areas to explore, move some secrets and maybe add new ones but in the end keep enough of the original levels general idea to make it recognizable as such while switching up the gameplay to make it fresh again (that's what the similarly named Doom mod did so that's what I assumed here). Was I wrong in that impression or have you changed your vision as to what you want the end product to look like?

I'm not trying to sound whiny here (especially when the whole thing is going to be free anyway so there is no reason for anyone to complain) but there is only what I've read here written by you to go on and the screenshots are few and far between. 
With all due respect and not meant as discouragement but QTWID not running in the original engines would be a major disappointment. 
Would be a major breach of public trust. 
Re: Alternate Universe Quake 
I wanted to address this separately because I wanted to make some very specific points on it.

Alternate universes in fiction (and lets face it, Quake is set in a fictional world) have things that are the same yet different (sometimes very different, but still recognizable). For example, even though they share a lot of similarities in settings in a general sense, Star Trek is not set in the alternate universe of Star Wars. They are two very different universes.

I hate to sound like a Trekkie but if you look at how they did it the bones (not the doctor) were the same. The ships were similar in layout and overall feel, the enemies were similar (although they may be the opposite where who was once an enemy were now your friends and vice versa) and so on. In other words you knew what was going on was in an alternate universe, there were enough similarities to know in a general sense where you were but you may have to do things differently to complete your goals.

As a simple thought example, in the original Start.bsp the easy and hard level teleporters might be swapped in an alternate universe where reading was from Right to Left. In that universe it would make perfect sense and not cause anyone to bat an eye but would certainly draw comments in the original Quake universe. I'm not saying that a simple transposition is the answer but that the basic idea's could be the same while still being very different in implementation.

In another example e1m2 has a lot of things going on as far as choices for the player to get around. In an alternate universe some of the original ways to do things would have to be kept while others wouldn't be there but replaced by something different. Secrets, weapons and ammo may or may not be in the same places but the same amount and types would be there, that sort of thing. Continuity is the keyword here. The player has to be able to say to themselves "Hey I've been here before but it's different now".

Let the levels that you are re-imagining keep the bones of the originals. Then you are doing a "Quake as ID did it" because those bones are what helped to make Quake in the first place. Otherwise you are just doing another original mod or map pack and that may or may not stand out above the others. Gimmicky gravity might not be the way to go unless you do some careful thought on it first.

Again, just my two cents and that's not worth a whole lot these days. 
Would Be A Major Breach Of Public Trust. 
I respectfully disagree Shambler.

There are at least a few (free I might add) engines out there that are at least as good as the software 1.0.8 and GLQuake ones that do allow you to break the limits. Unless you want to play on a x386 with 8mb of ram and maybe, if you are lucky, a 260mb hard drive there is no reason for not being able to break the limits, not anymore.

If FifthElephant wants to keep it inside the original limits I have no problem with that (what I said was pure conjecture, but I did expand upon it) but it might limit what he has said in the past about what he wanted to do (he was after all recently considering switching over to Quoth which is so far outside of the limits that it's not even close to being original Quake, so consider that). But ultimately it's his project and it's his call. I'll respect his decision either way and let the work stand for itself in the end. 
Quake The Way ID Did It?

There's a clue in the name... 
"RMQ" Flashback 
If it's no longer what the name implies, better call it something else. People take issue with those things. 
Lol Who Cares What Its Called? 
IMHO do what you think is best. Whether or not that conforms to some nostalgic pre-existing name based bias is another question. 
look at the original qsrc world.qc

void() worldspawn =
lastspawn = world;
InitBodyQue ();

// custom map attributes
if ((self.model == "maps/e1m8.bsp")|| (self.model == "maps/insertyourmapnamehere.bsp"))
cvar_set ("sv_gravity", "100");
cvar_set ("sv_gravity", "800");
that should do the trick
something like that 
Quake The Way ID Did It? 
I agree 100%. But it's a take off of "Doom the way ID did it". And that is not something that would ever run on the classic Doom engine. It exceeds the Doom limits in almost all respects and requires engines that exceed those limits, which is why I said that I expected that this would exceed the Quake limits.

Did I say "Exceed" enough? That is kind of the point of these types of things. Quake made as if almost no limits were there to keep the original level designers constrained to very limited .bsp and hardware constraints of the day. What would they do given the broad palette that they left behind if they would do it now?

The concept was never to run inside the limits of the original Quake engine (and apologies to FifthElephant if I ever misrepresent this, that's all on me) but to take the original levels and tweak, twist, modify or otherwise change them to be the same, yet different. All while not worrying about original limits.

He's (apologies to FifthElephant if you are a she but he works better in text) is trying to re-image the original Quake levels in some other way. From past comments made by him I was just trying to remind him and the readers of this thread of what he said his idea was months ago. Mission creep sucks and all I wanted to do was to nudge him away from it. 
The sentence is "Quake The Way Id Did It" not "Quake The Way Id Might Have Done It If This And That". 
Doom The Way id Did doesn't exceed any vanilla limits. It was designed to be as close to the stock levels as possible. 
Quaketree, You Obviously Misundertand 
Doom The Way ID Did does run on the classic engine. The whole point of the project, and similarly FE's Quake The Way ID Did, was to make (new) levels that look and play like they could have been part of the original games, as if made by ID themselves. It does NOT mean touching up on the stock maps or making overly detailed maps that break vanilla engine limits.

I'm also of the opinion that the QTWID levels should run in vanilla engines, otherwise it would defy the goals or the idea of the project. How can they exceed the limits anyway - one should think that smaller, less detailed maps wouldn't even come close to having any of such issues. If they do, there's clearly something wrong with the design.

At the end of the day, it's FE's decision how to proceed. However, I would be very disappointed if it turned afterwards that tweaking the levels for vanilla limits was possible after all. 
Well Then. 
This is a lot of text.

I will probably be disappointing many people with this project. The first couple levels will very likely run on the original engine but the last two maps I made I went a bit mad with the details.
The maps are supposed to be like an extension to the game not a revisit of the originals.

I think if I went back and took out all the details just to make it run in the original exe people would be mad. I might just give it a name like the expansion packs and let it be its own thing.

People will still see the inspiration from the original game 
I am a mere lurker, but I think a proper QTWID should be a community project where detailed id style analyses are used to vet and refine maps, just like DTWID. Studying the DTWID site and Doomworld discussion threads would be a good first step. And of course all maps should be vanilla-compatible. Anything else does not follow the TWID ethos and should really use another name, IMO. I very much hope someday a proper QTWID is done, and it would be unfortunate if the name was already taken by a set of maps that follow a significantly different design philosophy. 
I agree with you on all points. 
Ok, Just Tested 
using winquake and all the maps except map 3 run fine.

The only problem is map 3 took me quite a long time to make and is fairly elaborate. I dont think I could go back and rework the entire map. I think I would have to redo a lot of it from scratch. Honestly it may be unsuitable for redoing as it's just too detailed and too much of the map is visible from any one point.

As for making QTWID a community project? I did make an attempt to do this and the guys here ended up doing a speed map session that ended up only 1 map really feeling like it was made by id. 
Which limits does the third map exceed specifically and by how much?

Community projects don't work here anymore, unfortunatly. There's simply too little of an active mapping community left. 
The geometry is disappearing, probably too much shit visible on screen. So you can see into the void in a number of areas.

This is the only map which has this problem. I'm probably going to have a look at making some cuts to get it to run in vanilla. 
Oh. I thought you were talking about the hard limits that crash old engines. Technically, according to the rules disappearing stuff or grey flashes shouldn't occur in TWID maps, indeed, mut this is not that much of a critical problem in comparison. It can be alleviated by adjusting maxsurfs and maxedges in software engines. Of course, if you could optimize the areas a little more, it would go a long way. Still, no end-of-the-world problem as it sounded at first. 
Aren't there already tonnes of maps that are qtwid (ps shouldn't it be qtwidi, what happened to the 'it'?), just play anything from 96/97/98 and they're all within original limits and mostly id textures.

What exactly is Quake the way Id did it anyway... small, blocky, underdetailed levels? Is that really what people want to play now?

I'm all for creating some levels inspired by the style and design that id did, but "extremely under-detailed" shouldn't be a prerequisite. You can make an id themed map with detail.

I wouldn't worry about a custom progs and it not running on the original engine. Is there anyone at all that would actually attempt to run this in the original engine at 640x480? I'd still be playing it in dp. 
Got It To Work 
in standard quake. Probably still needs a tiny bit of tweaking but it's pretty much resolved. (Just chopped down on detail a bit)
The detail I have reduced isn't going to be missed, the map has still retained the same feeling. I think once I am done with this pak I will make a much more detail intensive map like I did with q-deck. This should restore balance to the universe. 
For Those Who Aren't Familiar With DTWID 
According to the DTWID site:
"The idea behind this project was to imagine that the original Doom had more maps before the release, but they were lost. The mappers tried to simulate the work of John Romero, Sandy Petersen, Tom Hall and achieve that authentic id-feeling in their maps."

Achieving that id feel entailed analyzing Romero, Petersen, and Hall's individual mapping styles/habits and refining submissions based on community feedback to better emulate those styles. You can see how the project developed and find some great design analysis in this gargantuan thread: 
if the name causes so much offence (spiney was rigth re RMQ reference) call it soemthing else and still do what you think is right fifth. 
Mapping Advice 
Community projects don't work here anymore, unfortunately. There's simply too little of an active mapping community left.
Sadly this is the state of quake mapping nowadays, but there are a few people still around. It really depends if the project is going to be organized properly and actually finished!

if the name causes so much offence
I get the impression people are concerned because the project name means something special to them and feel it is not going in a similar direction to the previous doom project.

After reading the first couple of pages of the Doom project it seems the doom community spent a lot of time analyzing and trying to understand the original authors building styles and design ideas. I assume this is what Fifth has been doing, but his design process has not been visible to the community, hence the comments.

Here is an awesome quote from the Doom thread that could easily apply to Quake mapping:

You do know that the main reason the stock episodes looked the way they looked is because:
1. id had to make suire the levels could run on a common computer from the early 90s.
2. Romero was a better level designer than Petersen.

I would say that to create a level that mimics Romero you would have to throw away all bells-and-whistles off today and follow the rules Romero made for himself:

* always changing floor height when I wanted to change floor textures
* using special border textures between different wall segments and doorways
* being strict about texture alignment
* conscious use of contrast everywhere in a level between light and dark areas, cramped and open areas
* making sure that if a player could see outside that they should be able to somehow get there
* being strict about designing several secret areas on every level
* making my levels flow so the player will revisit areas several times so they will better understand the 3D space of the level
* creating easily recognizable landmarks in several places for easier navigation
being strict about texture alignment

Well, when you don't have fancy preview modes and auto-alignment features... 
There shouldn't be this much of a debate. It's not like Fifth is planning on reinventing the wheel with a tiny mod, he's just trying to redo e1m8's key feature. Blame Romero for being a lazy dicklord who could've easily made gravity a worldspawn key/value instead of doing a shitty hack.

The goal is to make maps that emulate id's, who cares if it's /id1/ or not. Is it 'more' like id did it if he has to use an entity hack and break save game compatiblity? id would never have shipped a map like that. They would do it right in code.

Besides, done in it's own .pak, a custom start.bsp can be made. id wouldn't have had players bring down the console and type in skill choices or which map filename they want to go to. 
Blame Romero for being a lazy dicklord who could've easily made gravity a worldspawn key/value instead of doing a shitty hack.

Actually it was American who's been responsible for the main QC coding
Just wondering why the id had never fix all of the qc bugs 
although some people may be getting a bit butthurt (and not really, even) *I* certainly can't condemn anyone for that even if they do and actually this is a good design-based discussion. I just hope 5E doesn't take any of it for discouraging since it's great to see episodes still coming out these days, episodes are easily among the most exciting releases. The idea of an e1m8-inspired map obviously knocks my socks off as well (it's true though, e1m8 is arguably cooler than e3m5, yet it hasn't got tributes). 
I just hope 5E doesn't take any of it for discouraging since it's great to see episodes still coming out these days
People are just expressing opinions, ultimately its Fifth's project and he can do whatever he wants. Its certainly not much fun to hear lots of people moaning about your project idea, but there are plenty of people who will love it regardless of what direction it is going in. 
I'll Love It 
Cause it was made with TrenchBroom, and therefore, love. 
all the maps made with TB are my grandchildren. 
Stop it .. all of you, stop it! You're making me want to map and I don't have the time for that. AT ALL. Stahhhhp... 
The reason FE is being publically criticized and subsequently shunned is not because of the mod, but the fact that at least one of the maps exceeds old Quake's visibility limits (*).

Thus the blame isn't on American McGee for employing hacky code, but SleepwalkR for releasing an editor that encourages detailing! 
(*) Which, like I said, doesn't seem like that much of a problem compared to the hard limits. 
Hold on, there was shunning? Did I miss the shunning? Aw man. It's been a long time since I could get a good shun on. 
/me Shuns Johnny Law 
Maybe I should just released it without telling anyone that it didn't work on standard quake to see if anyone noticed... ;) 
You could take the offending maps out of the pak and release them separately.

Or leave it all as is and call it something slightly different. id tribute pack, or, something.

Or: just do whatever you want! it's other people who are apparently having the heart attacks. 
I am looking forward to your release more than the next sock! But the QTWID label might invoke different expectations than what you made. Either live with some bullying from pseudonymous internet twats or name it QTWITIMHDID. 
quake the way i think id might have done it ... dude? 
Options = Twats 
But aren't we all internet twats? Am I right guys?

All This Makes Me Very Unenvious Of What The Epic Guys 
will have to put up with for the community based new UT development. 
Ha ho no kidding. 
"Unreal Tournament The Way Epic Did It" 
Sorry About That 
I probably shouldn't have brought it up...

Fifth, I think that I made it clear that you can, and I encourage you, to make it the way that you want it to be. There can always be a QTWIDI-2 or whatever. My comments were purely based upon what I recalled about what you said that you intended to do way back when you first mentioned it several months ago (December-ish I think). Whatever you release I will play through and based upon QDeck I think that it will probably be pretty good. I personally would stay away from Quoth though. That kind of goes outside of the whole "The way ID did it" part. If you do go with Quoth I would suggest changing the name. 
No Shunning, Just Kidding. 
Ignore all this.

Just make something you think is cool. 
"Unreal Tournament The Way Epic Did It" 
Is what it will turn out like. When they realise they actually do know how to make UT better than all the gibbering internet fucktards do (as proved by the previous 4 incarnations of the game). 
'id quality is bullshit!' 
Natural Selection 2 Is Worth Playing 
Floating Pixel 
dat skybox tho.... unffff 
Please Release That Sock 
Is what it will turn out like. When they realise they actually do know how to make UT better than all the gibbering internet fucktards do (as proved by the previous 4 incarnations of the game).

Pretty much? I had thought this was true from the outset and that this was mainly a way for epic to generate buzz. designing a game by committee is a disaster waiting to happen as everyone tries to pull in different directions and I have to assume they are aware of this. 
now you have to! sorry, but its awesome! 
very nice. is that your own skybox? Can't remember seeing that before. 
Can you make the antennas pointy and much taller, and stick impaled guys on them because that's what I do in every map I make...

Uh, I mean, good work, keep going :) 
Shame sock didn't put a clothline with a dirty sock as a credit easter egg in Zendar like I suggested. Perhaps this map is another opportunity. 
"Pretty much? I had thought this was true from the outset and that this was mainly a way for epic to generate buzz. designing a game by committee is a disaster waiting to happen as everyone tries to pull in different directions and I have to assume they are aware of this."

Obviously every community suggestion won't be taken at face value and blindly to the game. There's a difference between developing a game "for the community" and "with the community". The latter, which is what we're doing, comes with implied curation and filtering and iteration. 
"and blindly ADDED to the game", I meant to say. 
I Still Dont Envy The Filtering Part 
will take lots of patience :) 
Or lots of interns. 
Design By Comittee 
is the worst idea. However!

I think a lot of people feel very passionate about their games and what makes a good one (I got a lot of feedback, I will take it).

I think a lot of people really understand what made UT great in the first place. Things that I hated about the newer UT games were the bland colours and the stupid American Footballer style proportions on *everything*. 
I Have To Say Though 
People who will actually make some UE4 prototypes, instead of simply spamming the forums with walls of text, will be listened to by Epic first and foremost. I wonder if that was an intentional way on Epic's end of encouraging people to subscribe. 
This topic is about screenshots. C'mon guys and worms, show us more pictures of Quake maps in the works. I want an erection ! 
Yes, prototypes are the way to go if you really want to make an impression. Words are great, but if I can fire up your blueprint sample and PLAY what you're talking about ... that's gold.

"Or lots of interns."

As a first pass filter, maybe. Ultimately, it will have to be looked at by someone at Epic - likely me - before it goes into the game for reals. 
AAA games are already designed by committee, may as well have the gamers on that committee too. Even if all their suggestions are fucking stupid, they are likely to lead to better gameplay than what your art lead is suggesting. 
#10894, Dwere 
The point was to prove that a 90s style look is possible with FBSP, q3map2 and FTE, using non-paletted (ie RGB) TGA textures.

The idea was to demonstrate that technology is not per se a hindrance in achieving that look. 
Or marketing, production, creative dictator(s), other designers, parent company wanting to 'help' and of course, the client.

bloated, distributed teams are becoming a thing of the past. The industry has changed so that more agile and focused teams are more effective.

Hopefully this will mean the end or at least attenuation of committee design.

Still a long way to go though. My title is games designer, which really means facilitator. 
Random brain rambles, but I wonder how many of those stories of "the publisher ruined our game!" are actually true.

I know it happens sometimes but I think at least some of those must have been smoke screens. Sometimes a game is just shitty. :) 
Oh Yeah 
Not trying to excuse the oinkers I've worked on.

Biggest culprit for a bad game is a bad team and/or teamwork.

This can be caused by morale though, and there's nothing for lowering morale like a command from on high that's counterproductive and must be done anyway. 
"there's nothing for lowering morale like a command from on high that's counterproductive and must be done anyway."

Sooner or later, no matter what field you're in, you realize that The Wire describes your workplace. 
From my experience, it was a little of column A and a little of column B. A mixture of directionless idiot leads, with a Publisher (who happens to own the studio) who just wants to flip Call of Duty shaped hotcakes off the griddle. So you go from atmospheric horror/puzzle game with time travel mechanics, to mediocre and forgettable shooter with time travel story. 
What game are you talking about scampie? Singularity had time travel...

A lot of games suck because there's a mass of dumb cunt gamers though don't know what good games are. The younger console market who just want to do STUPID FUCKING MINDLESS SHIT like minigames and running over pedestrians and collecting pointless crap like new outfits for your character. I've been playing far too many of these open world sandbox games lately that seem to be more about just fucking around doing random shit with your mates over while eating pizza, instead a really amazing gaming experience. Unfortunately, that seems to be what brings the money.

Dead Rising 2 is the current one I'm playing through and I'll take any COD game over DR2. 
@nitin, yeah this weekend hopefully.

@necros, yes this is my skybox. I bought the latest version of Terragen and have been testing out some ideas, this is one of them.

@ijed, the architecture is a cross between runic and base. The towers of runes are suppose to be topped with metal antenna poles. No spikes or bodies for this map.

@negke, never been a fan of easter eggs in my own maps, just simple secrets is enough.

@rest_of_the_idiots, seriously start another thread "UT dribble" or talk in general. This thread is suppose to be screenshots and feedback. >:( 
A Peak Into Crateworld 
For Scampie 
I was working on it for awhile at the end of that 'two year mess' 
And I Should Add 
I have nothing but respect for the team that came after and actually finished it.

But I can only relate my time during that story... and it was not a very happy time. 
awesome look forward to it. 
The Problem With Bob ... That. 
They are fucking annoying to fight against. Not hard, just annoying.

Map looks rad tho. 
Maybe Thats An Idea 
Change them for Sentinels?

Those are a bit more runic than tech and don't have the dodge behaviour. 
Man up, you pussies. Bobs are much less annoying than any other Quoth enemy.

Sentinels are most likely too slow/poorly visible for that environment. 
Bob is rad for its retro look (rivaled only by Floyd from Rubicon 2) and death sequence (I dunno, I just like it). 
Really interesting read. I enjoyed the little I played, but the the shoddy DRM (game freezes when not connected internet) broke it for me :(

Steam is DRM enough, I wish publishers would stop bogging down their products with this crap. 
Cliche up, negke, you macho nob.

Actually, sentinel's slowness would work well in the void I think, it could add some vibe to it, especially if they have patrol routes. 
I should have faith in sock, I doubt even Quoth can ruin his reliably fine gameplay balance. 
Man up, you pussies.

The new enemies are belligerently unfun. Each one feels like Doom3's "bludgeon the player and call it a challenge" design philosophy brought to Quake.

I could tolerate this at first for the sake of playing cool maps from the community, but it became a dealbreaker when some in the community made clear their attitude that it was my fault. Quoth can apparently only be appreciated by people better than me, because I'm a pussy.

I won't even read the news post for a new map farther than the word Quoth anymore, regardless of who made it or how cool it looks, because I already know everything I need to.

For sock, I'd make an exception. Good thing Quoth implements impulse 205! 
Doom3's "bludgeon The Player And Call It A Challenge" Philosophy 
Doom3 was challenging? That's news to me.

This is how Doom3 "bludgeoned" the player:

"Ok now, we're gonna spawn not one, not two, but THREE enemies in your general vicinity. Be ready, we're giving you all the ques that this is going to happen... hey, here it comes, get ready. It's coming. Aim your weapon, use your WASD keys. Here it comes. We're gonna spawn them one at a time, just in case you get flustered, ok? Get ready. Actually. Nevermind, here's a scary sound and a medpack."

NIGHTMARE mode was such a missed opportunity in that game. They had the chance to offer a challenging difficulty setting, instead it's just veteran with decreasing health :| 
There are two sides to the issue, in my view. I agree the gameplay in many Quoth maps can easily become annoying, but is it because the enemies are designed in a bad way or because the authors use them in a bad way?
Probably a bit of both: It seems to me they were intentionally designed to be more difficult in order to provide a high-tier supplement to the stock enemies much like the occasional fiend and shambler in a base or medieval map. However, authors often use them as replacements for regular enemies which results in a much harder overall experience rather than situational difficulty spikes.

So perhaps a misunderstanding on both parts. Designers wanted high-tier supplements while mappers expected normal-type additions for extended variety. Add to that a possible veteran player mindset on both sides and the result is frustrating gameplay.

I don't mean to bash people for not liking the new enemies, prefering less taxing combat, simply being not as hardcore players as others. Shambler being the exception of course! :) However, in the case of Bob, I don't understand the hate it often gets. It's not unbalanced in terms of health and damage like several other Quoth monster; the only thing that sets it apart from the regular enemies, in a positive way IMO, is its unique attack behavior which I don't consider difficult to read and master at all, there's no randomness or unfair behavior. 
The Problem With Bob ... 
Let me be you're betterman(live) 
About Nuwolf 
i'd like to here , whats happened to D4 beta
anybody in 
I had no idea people disliked Quoth's gameplay until, I think it was with ARWOP, someone said that Drake was just like Quoth - I thought that was a good thing but apparently not!
Personally I think Quoth is great, but apparently I've underestimated the traditionalism here, even though I didn't even use a skybox until 2008.
Anyway it's nice to see forum activity and Sock screenshots. 
this is supposed to be the screenshots thread. not some debate thread. 
discussion goes where ever discussion currently is. over the long run, the thread will go back to it's original purpose. 
I think relentless is a fair assessment of some of the Quoth monsters. On investigation, I found that sometimes they were literally more relentless than stock monsters in nightmare. When the patch notes for 2.2 say that the "contrast" between nightmare and other skills has been increased, translateed that says the worst offenders have had such behaviour shoved into nightmare where it belongs, and more resemble Quake creatures in skills 0-2. 
I get the flak Quoth receives despite my personal love for the additions on offer, but I've always felt bob criticism was weird -especially after he got retooled. his pattern is very easy to master, I think. 
I think that sometimes designers will design a monster that's numerically in line with Quake monsters, but put one in a test box with a pillar in the middle, easily kill it without being hurt, and think "oh, I need to make that way harder." Thing is, every existing Quake monster fails that test too. You can even (laboriously, with practice) solo a Shambler with the axe just by doing the "shambler dance." The danger of a Quake monster doesn't come from its abilities, it comes from how those abilities overlap with other monsters, with surrounding architecture, with where the player's attention is focused, and with how his movement is constrained.

Meanwhile, the whole Quoth menagerie has homing shots and perfect leading shots and hitscan attacks with no anticipation frames and every new dude is like his own miniboss.

this is supposed to be the screenshots thread

You're right! 
Fucking Incredible 
That looks more moldy than my 92 year old grandmother, and I like it! 
to people complaining about actual discussion taking place on this forum for a change: Calm down. 
Bring back the forge screenshot! 
use rubicon monsters, they are fairly nonthreatening when spawned alone in a cube room :) 
I really liked Singularity, it's an underrated game. I didn't realise it had such a scrappy development. Ironically I think it's a better game than Wolverine Origins in pretty much every single area.

Funny that it had such big issues running in ps3/xbox - the levels are all pretty small and linear for 2010. 
Damn (re Singularity Development) 
I know there's Hellraid, but I always hoped Raven would be able to return to their roots. I guess I hoped for the same thing with Human Head. Hell even with id, since they've done nothing in 10 years that reminds me of their old stuff. I especially suck at letting things go, but from Heretic 1/2 to Call of Duty franchise work just depresses me. We all know the masser the market, the dumber, but I'm sure all of us have seen the same commercial influence corrupt things - the parallels with music aren't too hard to see. 
Community Game Development 
Saw this on reddit, pertinent to a previous discussion... 
Fuck yes. Love the moldy mildew monolith deal you're showcasing there. I'd say I can't wait to play it, but I guess the last couple years prove otherwise. That shot has me more excited than Sock's though, which is saying something! 
That Shot Form Lun 
reminds me of the atmosphere from another game, cant quite remember what though! But love it. 
Lovely Skybox (where Can I Get It?) :) 
yeah looks great lun (once I put it into photoshop to turn the brightness up hehe) 
hehe exactly willem 
man up you pussies! lunsp2 is for hardcore players who cover their windows with black tape! 
i love the massive height of that hall. something that might be a cool theme would be a map where every room and hallway must been taller than it is wide except where absolutely necessary. 
For the common sense - see, you ARE capable of it.

But, it's not just about the difficulty or the imbalance, it's about the annoyance - Bobs are one of the easier Quoth enemies, but fighting them is annoying due to their size, dodge mechanics, and distracting attack. 
For one of the maps, I've set the goal that the player starts near the very top of the valid grid, and the exit must be near the very bottom. All (or nearly all) the 768^2 maps had the player start at the bottom and ascend, which is a very natural progression to the point of being the default. I wanted to see what the hurdles were in designing a map where the player is always descending, deeper and deeper, without just stacking locked chambers.

Discouraging shortcuts is tricky in a game without falling damage, as is creating combat scenarios where monsters below you are still threatening.

When I build it out for real it'll be fun to transition the visuals to an extreme degree as you descend, so it feels like you're disappearing into the bowels of the earth. 
yes, i've tried going from top to bottom as well and those problems are why i never followed through with a complete map.

finding ways to stop the player just jumping down without flat out putting walls everywhere is a huge challenge. I am curious to see you complete this map just so I can see what you end up using. :) 
Endless Wind Brushes. 
Lunaran, what editor are you using? 
That's Radiant 
Sikkpin's Qe3 
an unreleased version with bugfixes someone here sent me. it was either necros or negke. anyone know where sikkpin's gone?

I like QE3 because it still scrapes a folder full of *.qc files for /*QUAKED*/ comments, so I can document entities as I create/change them in the code, and not have to faff around with maintaining a separate file. Also because it's basically Radiant. :)

necros, having lots of death pits helps. I made a chart of the maximum distance a player can leap horizontally given 'x' height difference, so I can make areas visible down below the player that are just far enough away that a flying leap still sends him into the void. you can also use a ceiling a bit wider than the floor, so if you try to drop down you'll slide straight down the side of the ceiling brush and past the ledge. it's still possible sometimes to nail a gentle keyhole trajectory between the two if you do that, but it's hard enough that it probably falls under "speedrun tricks" which is okay. 
I like QE3 because it still scrapes a folder full of *.qc files for /*QUAKED*/ comments, so I can document entities as I create/change them in the code, and not have to faff around with maintaining a separate file. Also because it's basically Radiant. :)

i now feel like a complete buffoon. i had no idea it could do that and would always copy/paste the comment block into a separate file. god damnit that is a massive time saver.

how do you set it up to do that? set your base path to your mode folder? 
f5 to edit project, and change "Entity File(s)" to "c:/games/quake/sickmod/src/*.qc" or whatever.

seems like id used .qc files like a functionality garbage dump. qe3, qcc, and modelgen each parse .qc files and digest separate but overlapping parts of them. 
my god... how did i not know about this feature?? 
That could be cool to have in TB... 
@Lunaran, lovely mouldy look, I thought you had finished that map? Is that green or black fog at the top? Are you reworking the textures?

More Metal Pixel Pimpage - Runic Prison 
Nice Stuff 
Are those from the wad I uploaded a while back?

Metal is great. You are obligated to keep it clean and 'bland' for want of a better word...

Gah this is a fun hobby. 
one thing that would be nice for metal would be an ikbase style set with some angled textures for a bit more variety. 
Runic Base Trim Set 
Are those from the wad I uploaded a while back?

No, I started with two large rune sheets from my favourite metal map by Kell. I then extended the rune shapes into larger panels and created a collection of colour/style matching metal trims and door structures that also work well with the id runic set. I even created runic light fixtures with horz/vert versions for correct rivet shadows.

The final set has enough panels and trims to create enough variety for edges and large set piece objects and not feel out of place next to id runic pieces. The wad and source map will be included in the metmon pak file if anyone wants to play with them in their own projects. 
sock, I've already had to rethink a bunch of visuals in the first couple maps because you one-upped me so much last year, please don't make me have to rethink the metal map too :( 
just do what I'm doing... intentionally make shit maps and say "it's like id did it". ;) 
lmao 5th 
Well, This Looks Different... 
Looks Good Quaddamage 
is this a map, episode or megawad? 
It's Actually Another Part Of A Map I'm Making For WOOO 2... 
...Which is an upcoming jokewad for ZDOOM. 
It's certainly a mega screenshot ... 
Are those hexen rocks? 
Mmm Jokewads 
I love doom. 
So Many Pixels... 
Looks Great Killpixel.. 
Really love shot one.

RoQ, not bad... make your screenshots smaller though jeez! ;) 
First pic looks cool as fuck, Killpixel. 
Doom Is Somewhat Adequate 
Thankee, Thankee 
oddly, shot 1 was started and completed in an afternoon. I wish all areas went by so effortlessly :(

all shots are very WIP, btw. 
Those Are Some Sexy Corridors 
Corridor Crawls. 
I like them. 
The Lighting 
Is pretty sweet also.

In the second shot the stripes of light are coming from the left? (outside of the shot)

The third one also has an interesting indirectly lit look. 
In the second shot, the stripes of light are coming from the top.

When I first started this map I knew nothing, not even that light had properties that could be manipulated (falloff, angle, etc) so I thought of this little gimmick to kinda get light the way I wanted it.

In shot two, you see a little bit of a white light texture in at the top, it's illusionary. Behind it is a shaft with a bright light at the end. This allows you to focus bright light into any shape you want, in this case, a rectangle. By moving the light closer or father away you can change the sharpness of the projected light.

It's a cool effect. You can have very controlled bright light in otherwise dark areas. The contrast becomes even cooler when enemies move between the shafts of styled light.

Now that I know how to change light parameters It's not my go-to way of lighting, however, I still use it for it unique effect in certain areas.

Here are some very early shots, the top right was the first use of the shaft light method. 
I remember playing an old version of this... it was pretty unique. :) 
Good info :) 
Last shot reminds me of some architecture I used in the Monolith map in E.Y.E. Good stuff. 
The Rune of Black Magic is whispering dark secrets into my brain, Scoob! 
bottom right shot looks so cool. Way to go. 
love those scooby-doo backgrounds.

I love how they light the nighttime scenes with shades of blue. I wonder if this was an influence on lucasarts adventures (esp. monkey island) which has a similar style 
nice lightning block in the middle. 
More Textures + Mapping Derp 
A few days ago Lunaran posted a pic of a really nice looking Quake4 map. Upon looking through the rest of the screenshots, this caught my eye.

It was sexy and I knew I'd seen it before, like here in Doom3 or here in Quake2.

These areas use tall, pillar type brushes that look structural. In between them you can place walls, eye candy, or whatever. It makes mapping flexible and it looks cool. Ordinary walls now have a bit of interest and the utilitarian look if the beams/pillars adds believability.

So, since I'm over a decade behind on mapping theory, I gave this idea a shot. This also gave me an excuse to give making textures a second try.


It's generic as hell, but still cool. This is part of the big map I'm working on. The new textures will seem jarring, as there aren't any others elsewhere, but, meh.

Download the map and take a look for yourself, or Download the textures if you'd like to use 'em. 
nice textures! 
I think we found our next speedmap session. 
are those your textures?

If so, some advice:

1. edges of features should line up with pixel boundaries in a consistent way. For example, your floor texture has 4-pixel wide openings, but the space between openings seems to be 4.25 pixels, so the third slot is obviously .5 pixels off, and then by the 5th slot you are back on grid. This creates a lot of unnecessary and inconsistent antialiasing.

The wall vent in the top right screen shot, far right edge is an example of repeated features completely not lining up with the grid, so they are all blurry and weird looking

2. repeated patterns like vents and ribs also should be powers of 2 in size. This way even when mipmapped down they retain their crisp readability. Your floor vents are good because they are 4 pixels wide with 4 pixel gaps (once you fix that gap width) so even on the third mipmap they will be crisp. So try to make things 1px, 2px, or 4px in size, and gaps between features should be 1,2, or 4px wide.

3. All of the textures in your screenshot have almost the same color across the entire texture. It's a very flat, brown look. Adding some sort of contrasting material color can really help make your textures pop. It doesn't have to literally be a "Color", it can be more brown but of a different value (for example you have one panel that is slightly darker brown, try making it even darker so it stands out against the lighter brown you are using everywhere else. It can also be the same color but a different saturation, for example taking that brown and fading it almost to a dirty grey color. And of course you can add more of a real color too. The red pipes in some quake2 maps is a good example of color that pops well.

4. finally, a good way to maintain color harmony with different textures -- once you have more than one color :) -- is to make sure that in any given texture, some pixels share the primary color of other textures. The quake palette helps with this of course. if you look at the quake metal textures, the grey textures have blue pixels and the blue textures have grey pixels, so the eye sees those repeated colors and it pulls the whole scene together better. Textures that don't look good together often have no common colored pixels. 
@necros - Thanks!

@FifthElephant - IF you do, you might wanna download my first attempt at textures and mix them in for some much needed contrast.

@metlslime - Thanks for good advice. I fixed a few other textures that suffered from the misalignment issues you mentioned, but then just got lazy... I should fix these. What they would look liked mipped never even crossed my mind, nice pointer.

And yes, they're all exactly the same color. I should do something about that. hehe... looks like Alien3.

And your final point is very nice, I'll put all your advice to use my next texture making go around (third times the charm, hopefully).

Tell me what you think of this idea, and if it's not a very good one on a technical level:

I planned on greyboxing an entire map, focusing purely on gameplay. Then making a single, giant texture for each wall, all uniquely drawn. It's basically like megatexturing quake style. I think this could yield some really cool results, however, my technical ignorance causes me to wonder how bsp/engines would deal with that.

Just imagine: a map without any tiling textures, just a big, uniquely drawn canvas full of detail... 
It's worth trying but you should do an early stress test to see if it's even viable -- there are a number of steps in the texture loading pipeline that probably never had to handle 100s of megs of texture data. You'll probably need a giant -heapsize, for example.

Also, map load times will go up linearly with the amount of texture data to load. I like how quake takes 2-3 seconds to load a map. Changing that to 30-60 seconds doesn't sound like fun to me as a player. 
"Tiling textures are really just a crappy form of compression." -John Carmack

"No, they're a great form of compression." -Lunaran 
Carmack 1, Lunaran 0.

yes killpixel studying the level details of lunaran and others like him that are good at architecture is the best way to improve your mapping skills. 
I Love The Style Man 
Speedmapping could be a great idea with this set :) Totally Doom-base style (which I love).

Crappy form of compression, great form of workflow. 
Glad ya dig it :D I rather like the doom base look myself. 
Carmack will decide on a viewpoint that he finds "pure" and then use that as the justification for a huge amount of decisions that must be correct because they're derived from a pure assumption.

We all heard the story he kept trotting out about "being able to see what brick will pop out of the wall" in a cartoon because the brick is cel shaded and the wall is a painted background and that's why lighting should all be unified and real-time. Great, sounds terrific. Lighting wasn't unified up to that point, of course, because it allowed you to make pretty deep case-specific optimizations that made your game actually run fast, a lot faster than Doom3, but now you've talked yourself out of that completely for pat-yourself-on-the-back points. Anyone else would be called naive.

Tiling textures are, from a certain very grognardy point of view, a form of compression. Sure. And if your goal is to perfectly simulate the real world, yes I guess it's not 100% accurate. In the context of the reality of having to make a video game, however, it's really pretty damn good.

1) Very simple to implement. Already supported by 100% of hardware!
2) Artists intrinsically understand it and can work with it easily.
3) Players barely notice, and environment artists barely notice once they've started playing and stopped looking.

I no longer take the view that the goal of a video game is to perfectly simulate a real world, because doing so just so you can fill it with absurd gunfights and guys who wear tires for hats is dumb. Building a game with nothing but unique surfaces and textures that the player will then drive past at 40 mph in a dune buggy is dumb. 
but that concrete wall looks literally the same as THIS concrete wall!

I planned on greyboxing an entire map, focusing purely on gameplay. Then making a single, giant texture for each wall, all uniquely drawn. It's basically like megatexturing quake style. I think this could yield some really cool results, however, my technical ignorance causes me to wonder how bsp/engines would deal with that.

Its a trap! Unfortunately the only person who is really going to notice all this detail is you because you created it. Most players will notice the first room, but after that it, it will just become a blur of detail overload.

I never really understood the fascination with the metal Doom3 texture set, its mostly fixed sized panels painted over generic corridors. I really preferred the wide atrium, outside areas and underground temples to the constant alpha/beta/gamma lab corridors sections. 
Taken in context, extolling the virtues of megatexture, his comment makes perfect sense.

But, sure, if you want to talk realities of shipping games you certainly wouldn't want to listen to John Carmack. What's he ever done? ;) 
Let's also bitch about how Quake maps are slower/harder to build/longer to compile than Doom maps because of all the bullshit innovations. 
On A Tangent 
All realistic games suck. 
I see your point, and you may be right.

However, I quite liked the (macro) detail and uniqueness of RAGE. It didn't feel like detail overload and the environment always had my attention... of course, that could be because the game had absolutely nothing else to offer.

The idea of greyboxing is to give the level designer total freedom in terms of gameplay. Later, the artist can "make it work", making giant, area specific textures which gives the artist flexibility needed to do that.

So far, my little test is coming out much better than I expected. The mapping is easier, the texturing is easy and it's looking really cool.

I'll post my results in a week or so. 
"What's He Ever Done?" 
Number of games (non-id & excluding expansion packs) shipped on Quake3 engine licenses, according to Wikipedia: 15

Doom3 engine: 6

Rage engine: 2

Do the Unreal or Crytek engines only support one lighting path? They must, if it's such a brilliant streamline. How about fully virtualized textures and geometry? 
mean this?
This is so 2011. 
wasn't that video panned as just a play for investment capital? 
Well, you know, billions of voxels are really just a poor form of compression. What we need are actual digital atoms. 
Seems like a pretty shitty form of compression, although then again we seem to be getting some hints that it's more efficient than we think 
"What's He Ever Done" 
To the best of my knowledge he's never made a level. Carmack is an engine guy. That's not a bad thing or a pejorative statement but as I see it it's not in his toolset to be creative outside of programming. I liken him to the guy who lays rebar, makes forms and pours concrete into them. He makes the foundations that great buildings stand upon, but I wouldn't call him an architect even though the architecture wouldn't stand without him making the foundations that they sit upon.

This line of thought brings to mind some other people. For example Henry Ford made a blanket decision that all of his cars would be painted black. It was a wise decision in that it streamlined the production process but soon enough people were paying extra money to get their cars painted in colors other than black. Ford made the cars but others added color. As I see it Carmack is the Henry Ford of the gaming world. 
It Should Be Noted 
"Pure" mapper's perspective is also limited. 
"Pure" Mapper's Perspective Is Also Limited. 
Without a doubt. But I will say that the mapper has to learn the limitations made by the engine so they tend to understand what they can or cannot do. The guy who makes the foundation doesn't always know what will be built upon it so it has to be both robust and flexible. Carmack did that well and I have a lot of respect for what he did. But, his vision was in programming the engine and what it could do, not the levels themselves.

Doom and Quake were both built upon Carmack's engines. What came out of it wasn't Carmacks doing any more than any work of art was made by the people manufacturing the paint, stretching the canvas or quarrying the stone. 
I Dunno 
I think at some point he made some deliberate decisions relating to what sort of game he wanted to see, including its environments; he seems to have dealt with mappers' requests with impatience. I think he did have a vision of the games and that the limitations of his programming reflected that. The artists worked within his context and that context was certainly not mostly unconscious. 
I understand the analogy somewhat, but I think that creating an innovative engine is a bit different from manufacturing some generic tools for artists. You can't do the former without a slightest idea of what you want to see in a finished product. That's the problem with Carmack's latest efforts - they're too focused on certain goals, and therefore are less flexible. 
Holy hell ... Look, the quote in question is in regards to selling megatexture as an alternative to levels mapped with tiling textures. His point being that all tiling textures are is a form of texture compression - he has a valid point.

I don't know why the argument that Carmack never made a level raised it's head here, but it was never argued that he HAD so we can leave that one outside for now.

Technologically speaking, the quote is correct.

Ask any artist (at least the ones I know) if they'd prefer tiling textures or unique textures and they will almost always choose unique. Tiling textures, however, are more realistic for shipping games but I think that's more of a workflow/storage issue than a visual or aesthetics one.

So if uniquely texturing worlds ever becomes as easy, workflow wise, as applying tiling textures you can bet money that it will become the standard. 
Willem Hit The Nail On The Head On All Points Raised 
Also, unique textures =/= realism.

To me, megatexturing just makes the art (realistic, surreal, cartoony, whatever) more rich and interesting. 
To me it justifies a $59.99USD price tag and 50GB of data XD 
WIP Plutonia Map 
Looks nice! 
Looks Good 
makes me want to go on a doom binge 
Some Unfinished Business 
1 2 3 4 - Kell 
So good. I remember these... Are they lost forever, or are you advertising that you have the source? 
please tell me you will be finishing those, neg!!! i loved them back when he started them and they are still amazing. 
I don't have the source. Just stumbled upon the screenshot while searching for a particular video for mocking sock and thought I'd share them for inspiration. 
That implies you still have them!? 
not the sources, no. these were maps Kell made during Quoth dev that he had originally intended to make into an episode. Unfortunately, what you see is most of what there is. 
New Paint On The Walls 
1 2 3

Socks Sky is from sock, havent got a better one at hand now:)

map is just a speedmap with nothing really in it, no time.. 
that looks super cool!

If only the egyptian enemies from rogue weren't so shit they'd fit in so well there. 
Ooh Yeah. 
Agree! Maybe the altered ones from Drake? Certainly a few centroids would fit the setting!

By the way, holy hit You map fast! I really have to get trenchbroom working.

Also shame about the kell source. Great inspiration for a new subtheme though 
Gaunts and polyps in masses... 
A Collection Of Unfinished Things

Some good, some bad... most will never be finished, some my get reworked someday. Who knows! 
It is really weird to me that someone took the Wasted set I uprezzed and repainted for Quake3, based on the Quake2 set, and downrezzed them for a Quake1 wad.

also, dunwich is too cute not to finish. maps with little houses and graves are neat. put the castle in that nero shot at the end of it. 
FFS Scampie. 
Get reworking and releasing already, some of those look great. 
And i was thinking that no one mapped for DoE because it is a mythos and in reality it doesn't exist ... 
Yeah scamps you need to bloody release some of these ;) 
I'd love to see Lemuria finished Scamp. Or just combine all the tech stuff into one level. 
why do you have so much great-looking unfinished stuff? Lemuria has a really unique look to it and I would love to see a full level in that style. I guess it's probably because (like me) it's more fun building stuff than finishing it.

Shame about the Kell sources, I never forgot about that "netherworld palace" idea he seemed to have going on.

How about a speedmapping theme where each mapper takes one of those kell shots (or one of glassman's old shots) and uses whatever it depicts as a centerpiece for a level. 
I'm Still 
really gutted about bal's unfinished maps. I dunno how anyone can throw that much work at a bunch of maps and then not finish them. Seems weird to me. 
dawn you mfx, those shots are super uber fantastic!!! 
I have no idea why there hasnt been a lot done with this set. It's quite nice (except the lack of a door texture, had to kind of fudge one together). 
That set was made for a Quake3 level that didn't have any doors in it.

Quake's at the same texture res as Doom, just use the door from Doom :) 
I like my door that I made better ;)

There's a really neat lift too actually. 
same here fifth, i think they look great. so much better than plain old idbase. I did a couple levels with them, dm levels for q3 and q2 and really liked using them. don't know why q1 users don't branch out a bit more in texture use. maybe it's too much effort to find different wads. but there's a lot of good tech style textures that could be mixed to fantastic results. 
Well ... 
There is some textures that don't look as good when sawn in the Editor than in a map, but i think that the main reason is that people prefer bad already known textures that take the risk. Thats probably the reason too because some people don't like custom mods.

My reason is that i prefer to know how to use Quake's well before moving to the rest. The same as when i use mainly vanilla Quake instead of mods to map. The only thing that goes out of that rule is Quoth entities that give the mapper the opportunity to do some interesting things and others that would need elaborate setups without Quoth.

Fifth, those textures choices look good. Keep on it.

About WIPs, i would be happy the rest of the year if some of this got released. Just by releasing an unfinished one would be enough. 
Dunwich/The Experiment 
both are deserving of release based on shots alone, particularly the former - such a great look!
Lun's suggestion to put the necro castle at the end of Dunwich seems possibly fitting if the progression from the church is downwards, beneath the floorboards and into the earth; it would look great situated in a dark cavern rather than a dusky pink sky 
Screenshots Of Projects To Be Discarded In The Near Future 
First up, I was inspired by Sock's monstrosity to make a shitty Coagula map, though it is really much more indebted to (and aiming for the quality level/ scope of) ELEK's Coagula 2. Black fog in lieu of lighting, because who has the time, am I right ladies? No monsters either, nor any real idea of how gameplay will go. I'd say this is like 30-50% done.

A slimy speedmap that I started for Quoth that seems worthy of expanding a bit, even though the gameplay overly difficult in that classic Quoth-implemented-badly way discussed elsewhere. Silver lining: no Bobs!
Probably like 60-80% done, depending whether aforementioned expansion actually happens. Also some fucked up parts I have been avoiding dealing with that will take a minute to fix. 
Stop Using Dropbox For Posting Images You Lazy Shits 
What's the issue with Dropbox? It works for me. At least I don't have to enable a bunch of useless JavaScript to see the pictures, unlike most of the other image hosting sites. 
Some work places ban it which is retarded. It's an incredibly useful tool. 
Blocks public access after a number of views, doesn't allow to open the image separately, is blocked in some work places, etc.

There's no reason to use it over imgur. 
That Works. 
But Drew's and Fifth's don't. 
Huh, Didnt Realize That 
Seemed like a nice way to skip the hassle of uploading to quaketastic. So yes I'm a lazy shit. (go map). 
I Dunno 
Why mine won't work. Hmmmmmm 
If it's in your public folder, just right click it in Windows Explorer and choose "Public Link". Paste that link anywhere you want to show it ... 
Well I don't have any problems viewing anybody's screenshots from Dropbox. There is a Dropbox background where it whines about requiring JavaScript, but I could always just right click and select "view image" if I really didn't want to see that. Doesn't actually bother me though.

Blockage in the workplace is another story. If that's the case for you, then you probably have the same issue with lots of other sites besides dropbox. For some reason, many employers don't like to pay people for surfing the internet. 
For some reason, many employers don't like to pay people for surfing the internet.

Especially fun when clients send you blocked URLs! 
Dropbox also implies "this file will be deleted whenever I feel like it" while Quaketastic is meant for longtime accessibility. 
Rick - Sure, but for any white collar, creative type job the internet is pretty important for a whole array of reasons. Blocking it in the hopes of raising productivity likely does the opposite.

Spirit - Fair point! 
I Use Dropbox 
simply because it's the fastest and easiest way to host files. I always click the link I share to make sure they work (they always do for me on my home pc).

I dont know why it wont work for you. It's unlikely that files on my drop box will be deleted soon after I upload them, I am just not that organised. Also I think it would be unfair for me to throw WIP shots on quaketastic, seems like a waste of bandwidth. 
Well I have posted some of my wip pics on tumblr, I could always hotlink them. 
Also I think it would be unfair for me to throw WIP shots on quaketastic, seems like a waste of bandwidth.

Absolutely not!

Tumblr links are very volatile from what I know. Imgur likes to recompress pictures and deletes them after a while

I just organised the archival of 140,000 mp3s off a dying website, I care about longevity. 
If you use a pic hosting site, use Minus, it doesn't recompress pics. 
Some Map waffle and reflection on making things in a hurry.
(Features screenshots too!) 
Thanks sock 
Longecity is one thing, authorship rights is another. Some people like to keep control over their images, the freedom to delete them whenever they please. 
then posting on a public (as can be) board might not be what they want but rather something more private with a restricted audience? 
Just Use Quaketastic You Gits 
It's what it's there for. Don't worry about bandwidth, it's practically unlimited. 
Shots look good, map on! 
is that not available for download? 
thanks for the comment mfx 
@nitin, I want to do more to the map and release it another time. The article is just me making notes and thinking about what went right with the map session. 
thanks, I think it looks too good not to release. 
A Little Something I'm Making For NOVA 2 
Messing Around With Heretic 2. 
I made the brushes in trenchbroom and then used quark to add the lights and other entities.
It's not an ideal way to do things but until Sleeps adds full support for other engines this'll have to do...

The first lighting pass looked pretty good, but with subsequent rebuilds I've noticed the lighting get a bit weird. 
I'll so play a Heretic 2 map. I loved Heretic 2 and mapping for it. The texture sets weren't as flexible or durable as Quake's, but it did have a distinct art style with some really great environments (the sky cities, mountain temples, etc). Tons of cool map objects too. Quake2 engine + fantasy style produced some interesting creativity. 
Looking at those screens makes me wish that Enclave had custom maps. :( 
*cough* *cough* 
What do you use to make your maps? 
Oh Shit, Disregard The Above Post 
I actually use GZDoom Builder to make my doom maps. 
Yeah The Doom Maps What I Mean. 
I should give it a try when I have another free weekend. 
Even More Doom Stuff 
I really should give doombuilder a try... 
Shame I never got to finish the big Doom map I had started a couple of years ago. Only did the lower part, a dark blood sewer/dungeon - there was supposed to be an upper floor as well, some sort of butchery factory with monsters working on large meat grinders with conveyor belts and all. Unfortunately, at some point I accidentally overwrote or deleted what little I had and then lost interest for the time being.

1 2 3 
Great Scott ! 
that really IS too bad!
Love the outdoor area, reminds me of Necros' doom-style Quake map.
What about that villagey Quake map you posted shots of a while ago? If you're not making anything especially for the Honey map jam (I'm not, I'd love to take part but I'm not, as any mapping I do at this point must be dedicated to finishing old stuff, not starting new stuff), then you should just box that up, fill it with zombies and rottweilers, and submit that (after all Honey did start with a village).

now I'm going to go map. 
Yeah, Great Scott 
Who's Scott anyway? 
Musta Been A Beercup Icon 
He was a great man...

@RingofQuaddamage - Looking good! The second image of your last post is sweet. I'm a sucker for blue floors and tan walls with a bit of tech.

@negke - Well, you've made good progress, you should just hold out and do a megawad :P

With maps that big it would be, what, 64ish hours of playtime? I'm ready. 
Mother of god! 
It's Like A Party In My Eyes! 
Beam Me Up, Neg!ke 
Shame the releporter beam got stuck. 
Those Shots Look Good Negke 
I always liked mapping for Doom. I had a couple of maps that I was going to release once, but I ended up contributing them to a total conversion/megawad project.

I had to make a lot of changes so that they would fit in with the megawad thing, but I've always wanted to take the time to rework them back to how they were originally and release them as stand alone maps. 
sexiests floor plan I have ever seen 
did you ever make any progress with that map i sent you? if not, i was thinking i should just release it as is. 
I'm afraid I didn't make much progress. I suppose it could be released in its current form and would be accepted by the Doom community - there many newly released maps that are more plain. However, I'd like to give it another shot - just a few touch-ups in some of the bigger rooms might do wonders. It's not like we're pressed for a release date. 
sure, np. i was only going to push it out if you had given up on it. 
Don't Give Up On It! 
I would like to play a Necros/negke collab very much. I mean holy shit. 
not so much a collab, and more a 'i gave up and negke was pissed because he playtested so much' :P :P 
Dat Floorplan 
Since You Guys Are Talking About Doom Now... 
you can play MAYHEM 2048. I made a map for the wad and you can find it on the list of maps in the op. 
Looks Like Someone's Guts 
Necros + Neg!ke Collab 
you guys could call yourselves negros! 
Some textures are missing when I load up your map in zdoom? 
Grab RC4 of Mayhem 2048:

my map (emerald gardens) is map 14. 
WIP Wad Update 
Map 01 is about done! 
KP14: Quake Megatextured 
Here is what Quake looks like megatextured. It's uniquely textured (well, 95%) but it's not one physical texture, rather, nineteen of them (not including the door texture and accompanying shader). Shader? Oh yeah, this isn't BSP29 either, it's FBSP (q3map2/qfusion). "Megatexturing" for vanilla quake is pretty laborious, which caused me to abandon my first megatexturing project. However, I did get some useful graybox textures out of the deal.

The most notable benefits of switching map formats are:
1. No palette!
2. No WAD repacking and map recompile to update them in-game.
3. Textures must only be divisible by 2 rather than 16.

The room took me about three solid evenings to make, quite a bit of that time was spent fiddling around and getting the hang of things. One who is experienced could do a better job in less time. I say this because it pertains to my initial question: is megatexturing Quake, or a derivative, viable? Based upon my findings, my answer is ABSOLUTLEY.

Of course, certain variables alter it's 'viability'. For instance, opting for textures with a greater pixel density than Quake will result in much more texture data. My test, KP14, has exactly 3mb of textures. If I were to make a map 100x larger and megatexture it, it would only use approximately 300mb in textures, which is nothing.

This is the workflow and benefits of texturing this way that I imagine:

Concept art is the anchor, the unifying element that both the level designer and level artist will use. This is key. The level designer lays out a map focusing almost exclusively on gameplay, the level designer does not texture the map, he only grayboxes it. The map is continually refined until it plays great, I mean beautifully, as this is the designers main focus. Now that we have a great playing map, the artist goes in and draws all over it, focusing only on making it look great. The end result is a map that looks AND plays great.

I feel that by narrowing the focus on these two elements, the end result is of much higher quality. Both the level designer and artist have a much higher level of freedom than they would if using traditional texture sets.

There are other details, but this is the gist. It sounds good on paper, at least.

Anyway, here are some pics of KP14 being assembled.

bam and boom 
That is a shitload of commendable effort! I like the direction you went, it reminds me of both Rage and Warsow at once, somehow.

To be honest, though... I think I'm siding with sock and Lunaran on the matter, in that while the difference between regular textures and unique textures is obvious on paper, the average player won't really notice it in game. And especially not in the heat of Quake combat.

No palette!

But you can already have that with normal BSP and external textures. 
If I Had One Complaint About Your Art Though 
Is that you seem to give everything a fairly thick outline. Which is okay on its own but you'll notice Quake hardly ever does that.

Place a couple Enforcers and ammo crates inside that corridor and they will stick out considerably (and not in a good way). 
Clearification & Context 

Sadly, I went down the wrong road in the art direction (I was going by the seat of my pants anyway), as this effect could be pretty easily achieved with tiling textures.

When I say "Megatexturing Quake" I really mean megatexturing a game that is a Quake derivative. In other words, a unique IP built on the tech.

Agree, if you're looking to simply map for Quake, this method is overkill and the result is very un-Quake. However, it's doable if that tickles your fancy.

"the average player won't really notice it in game. And especially not in the heat of Quake combat"

The reason many games suck today is because the are made for the average player. They're not my target :) 

Are you sure that is Doom? Maybe i played a different game. Too awesome to be true.

If you don't release that we will loath you forever. 
I have no idea how to download that file. I dont want to download an .exe 
The Mayhem wad?

At the top where it says:

Download: MAYhem2048.wad

just click on the file name. 
try this link:

and click on the underlined message that says mayhem2048.wad. it will download the wad file. drag and drop the .wad file into your doom 2 directory. 
I must have been doing something wrong badly here. Got it this time though. 
Too many insta-death situations for me... the chaingun ambush was overpowered IMO 
Quake Mega-Texture Thing By Killpixel 
Fuck, that's awesome. 
Just keep doing your thing KP, I dig. 
very cool. 
Yes, Very Very Stylish!! 
"the average player won't really notice it in game. And especially not in the heat of Quake combat"

The reason many games suck today is because the are made for the average player. They're not my target :)

my head hurts 
Mine too.

otp is right, this is overkill for Quake. I wasn't responding to the statement itself, rather, the underlying philosophy (however, in the context of Quake mapping, is appropriate).

If you only do things the average player will notice or appreciate your games will be just that: average.

That's all I'm saying. 
@RickyT23, Spiney, nitin & mfx

Hopefully this is just the first baby step of something awesome.

time will teeeeelllllllll..... 
if you compress an mp3 so that the average listener can't tell, does it become average music? 
I See Your Point, But I Think You're Missing THE Point 
Also, as someone with a background in music and audio production, my answer to your question is this:

The artistic merits of the music are not lessened. However, the overall impact of the expression could be compromised because of the technical limitations of the medium.

To put my point in question into simpler terms: Developers who make games as shitty as their target demographic allows will end up with shitty games.

The "average player", in terms of the largest generators of income for the devs, set the bar pretty low. Going above and beyond that bar, even though it doesn't positively impact your bottom line, is not a bad thing. 
Reqiuem Avenging Angel 
Been Playing this game called

It's like a cross between Quake II and Undying and it's pretty good.

It's on Isozone, and it runs on Win 7 using wndmode. 
Sorry Wrong Thread 
hiring masses of artists to uniquely texture your entire game world isn't "going above and beyond the bar" for just the discerning environment art geeks in your audience, it's a captain-goes-down-with-the-ship style decision made purely on the principle that unique is automatically better, and that tiling a texture is "shitty" and only worthy of these fabled unwashed masses who are ruining everything with their F2Ps and their QTEs.

and you've spent how much time on just that one room? honestly assess just how much value is added by slightly different faded paint, slightly different scratches on the corners, and having a different big number on each wall, and tell me you're excited about the possibilities that it opens for doing a whole map that way. 
You made several points, I'll address them one by one:

I must have been unclear in my wording. I'm not saying games with tiling textures are shitty, nor am I saying that games with unique textures are superior. My previous points aren't about a specific practice (in this case, texturing), rather, the idea that doing enough to get by, or generate profit, is sufficient.

Also, my conclusion that uniquely texturing a game on this level of tech, at this pixel density is a viable route is not based on the "principle that unique is automatically better", as you assert.

In my eyes, unique textures makes it possible to create very rich environmental art, that is, if the devs have the capacity wherewithal to do so.

To quote you:

"honestly assess just how much value is added by slightly different faded paint, slightly different scratches on the corners, and having a different big number on each wall, and tell me you're excited about the possibilities that it opens for doing a whole map that way."

To quote what I said to otp a few posts up:

"Sadly, I went down the wrong road in the art direction (I was going by the seat of my pants anyway), as this effect could be pretty easily achieved with tiling textures. "

Clearly, I understand I didn't have the wherewithal to utilize the freedom of unique textures.

And of course, not being a moron, I have "honestly assessed" the logistics of doing things this way. That was the whole point of doing this in the first place ;)

This room took me a solid 10 hours to texture over the course of three evenings. That is a long time.

To quote my initial post:

"One who is experienced could do a better job in less time"

Some dirty math:

Say I want a level 30x times that size, that's roughly 300 hours of work. At a 40 hour work week, one artist could finish it in 2 months. for ONE artist, working full time, they could theoretically pump out 6 levels a year.

Say you want a 16 level game done in 1.5 years. A team of three artists would be sufficient. That's basically 2 levels per 6 six months for each artist. I'm talking artists, there would be a separate team of level designers.

To me, this isn't "hiring masses of artists".

If uniquely texturing games wasn't viable studios wouldn't be doing it.

Bleh, maybe I'm nieve (I'm sure I am), on the flip side, maybe you're jaded. These are just my findings and my opinions, if you disagree with them I understand. I should be more clear when simultaneously discussing separate issue that have both stemmed from one subject... 
You assume work is linear, and vastly underestimate, which is the downfall of many a project manager.

"30x times that size" is not going to be a whole level, it's going to be 30 more empty hallways each with their own slightly different textures. Your basic sci-fi hallways are the easy part of making a map.

Make it 300x more, and you have a slightly more reasonable estimate... but it will likely be even more than that as complexity of the level grows. 
Aww man, you got my hopes up that Spike actually implemented it in FTE somehow. Calling lots of standard textures megatexture is like promising the greatest boobs ever and then they turn out to be fake. :(

Wouldn't texturing like this be very wasteful on memory?

You still seem very limited to the faces so the look is not very unique. It looks very similar to recent Q3/QL. I was expecting some really wild texturing not "standard tileness". For random decals as detail you could just use decals. 
"You assume work is linear, and vastly underestimate, which is the downfall of many a project manager. "

Very much so, yes. Assuming a linear level of productivity over the life of a project is just not realistic. People will get bored, tired, distracted, etc. You won't have consistent levels of output.

And even then, doing an entire game with levels don't like this would require an astounding level of discipline where levels won't be changing once they are textured. That has NEVER happened on any project I've ever been a part of.

That's why things like decals are preferable to painting in splatters and such that cross multiple walls. The walls can change, the decal can move, etc. It's flexible and inherently far more productive than repainting the decal every time you decide that a pillar should be 16 units further to the left. 
Having said that, I understand that actual megatexture games don't have all those limitations ... they have a source file that bakes down into the final so you CAN move things around. It just requires baking everything down again.

Doing this for Quake with existing level design tools feels very limiting. 
Just keep doing your thing KP, I dig.

After A Night Of Troubled Sleep 
I went to bed last night with the essence of Lunrans comments fresh in my mind. I realize that my time/work assessment is about the most optimistic it can be while still remaining quasi-realistic. I choked down a few bits of harsh reality, some of which has been posted mentioned by Scampie and Willem.

Work is not linear. Nor can I expect anyone to BLEED this project until it's done. Just because I could abandon life for a year and a half to live at a computer desk doesn't mean I could expect that of anyone else.

My outlook is often optimistic, it hasn't failed me yet, in terms of personal projects and work. But I understand going by a plan that is very much "best case scenario" is unwise.

After taking a more cynical, or realistic, look I would say using standard, but diverse tiling texture for a majority of the map with key areas uniquely textured is a goal that would require little bloodshed to achieve.

As for now, I'm going to have to let this topic rest. I have more stuff to work on. However, I'll continue to weigh all points raised here. 
For a hobbyist project, I think you can do whatever you want. Who cares? It's your time, spend it as you see fit. :) I was speaking from a professional perspective.

I think uniquely texturing areas is an awesome idea but the key is to make it worthwhile. Not just, as Lunaran pointed out, a unique number on the walls or custom scratches. But really stretch it ... look at Rage for inspiration. It's very obvious in a lot of their environments that the textures are unique. 
And their geometry often makes it so that custom textures are required to make that geometry sing. 
It looks good, but the architectural style of 'future base' is designed to be built from prefab panels and girders, the generalised look of which doesn't lend itself so well to megatexture.

Take what you've got and stretch it as Willem says - explore the benefits of megatexture within the Quake setting.

I dunno. How about turning the centre of the base into a gigantic crater? Or twisting parts of it into organic shapes that have been warped by demonic / slipgate energies.

Anyway, keep going - its great to see stuff like this. 
I'm a pretty lazy mapper, although I do try to incorporate the feedback I get... but yeah, whenever I cut corners I used to think "well, it *is* free" but these days I kind of have to in order to get it released at all.

I loved how maps in the Myth series of games were basically megatextured whereas other RTS games at the time were using tiled images (and were mostly just 2d as well). But for FPS, even for Rage, I don't think unique textures everywhere is an efficient use of artists' time. My $0.002. 
I mean I saw the Rage editor videos - these guys were painting onto a 3D world map, just as you would paint onto a 2D canvas in Photoshop. It gives the ability to use decals for example, but without unnecessary layers underneath [at some point in the rendering pipeline], and then do little touch-ups here and there.

I like the fact that you can use tiling textures and then touch parts up to make each part seem more unique.

Imagine if SleepwalkR put this ability into Trenchbroom! Imagine an editor that would allow you to pixel-paint onto any surface, and then created the necessary .mips and generated a wad when you export the .map file....

Good idea, huh, huh?

I bet there's some ready-to-use code out there that would save the effort of creating a painting app from scratch, it could be hacked into it.

Then doing what Killpixel has done wouldn't be as time-consuming... 
I really geeked out over Myth maps... the placement of goals and terrain features, the available unit selections, how that all worked together. Some of those big texture maps were cool and iconic; I even used them as desktop images for a while. But they were also the barrier that told me if I wanted to make my own Myth maps I could either become a texture artist or fuck right off. So that was a bummer. :-) 
Painting On Walls 
One could import a map into blender. Also, Photoshop CS6 has a greatly improved 3D editor. I'm not sure how well it would handle a map, or even sections, though.

The most time consuming part of the method I used was grabbing the dimensions of each surface. Doing that for an entire map could take a week or more. But once the dimensions are grabbed, a basic, flat texture is made and placed into the map. After that, it's only a matter of drawing on them.

This pic shows some of the basic textures placed onto the map before they were drawn on.

Obviously, if one were to do a whole map (or more) in this way, the artist would have asset libraries to pull from. It's not like every surface would be hand drawn from scratch.

This kinda makes me think of the game Riven. Although pre-rendered, the world was uniquely textured. If they had used tiling textures, the impact of the environments would be diminished, imo. 
When your game's just a prerendered slideshow the whole debate kind of goes out the window because there's a bunch of other tricks that come into play instead - noise based textures, editing and compositing in post, etc. Whole new renderer, whole new point of view.

For a hobbyist project, I think you can do whatever you want. Who cares? It's your time, spend it as you see fit.

Willem reminds me, I should point out that I never meant to tell you you can't do this. It'd be pretty hypocritical of me considering I released a tool-assisted q3 map with fully unique geometry. :P I've just never had any real faith in megatexture as something that adds appeal for anyone other than the people who actually art the environments. I know, I've got the exact same internal artist voice that's always saying "more, more, better" but I know that voice is greedy and utterly unbounded by practicality.

You seemed to be on the same koolaid pretty hard, so I couldn't help but pound the keys. Sorry about that.

Embedding textures in the .bsp does present a neat opportunity for bundling in unique assets, but only if they can be created in a smart way and are only used for the "hero pieces" where the most eyeball value will be derived. Like ijed said, a prefabbed repeaty space hall is the worst place to show this off. I always thought that if there was anything in Rage that did visually benefit from an all-unique approach, it was geology, the domain that suffers the most from tiles. Nature rarely repeats itself.

ugh, now I want to go add compiler-level procedural rock textures and grass blends that just bake huge unique textures into the bsp :| 
Rage + Outdoors = Nice 
Rage did have some of the most beautiful outdoor environments I've ever seen in a video game. 
Re: Johnny Law 
lol, me too.

Once upon a time I had an idea for a long, story-based "episode" that would take place in several different games, including Myth and Rune. Then I realized that yeah, efficiency is a concern. 
When your game's just a prerendered slideshow the whole debate kind of goes out the window because there's a bunch of other tricks that come into play instead - noise based textures, editing and compositing in post, etc. Whole new renderer, whole new point of view.

I didn't mean as an example of practicality or viability. Simply, that unique textures offer a look that tiled textures could not.

For a hobbyist project, I think you can do whatever you want. Who cares? It's your time, spend it as you see fit.

Heh, a no point did I ever feel I was told I "can't" do this. I don't think anyone here would dictate to anyone else what they can or can't do. Should, well, that's another story... *cue Never Ending Story music*

For contextual purposes, this would be more than a hobbyist project. A potentially commercial effort with a small team of 4-8 people or so. Otherwise, the question is simply "should I spend my personal time doing this", which is something one could answer themselves.

You seemed to be on the same koolaid pretty hard, so I couldn't help but pound the keys. Sorry about that.

It's no problem. Hearing other perspectives was the reason for posting. I already knew what I was in for.

Like ijed said, a prefabbed repeaty space hall is the worst place to show this off.

Agreed, I mentioned this as well.

I'll get a better idea of the logistics of it all as the project evolves. It's still in it's infant stages and at a time when possibilities are on the table and examined 'tis all. 
Isn't This Supposed To Be The Screenshots Thread? 
You Asked That Already. 
And you got an answer:

discussion goes where ever discussion currently is. over the long run, the thread will go back to it's original purpose.

If you're not interested in intelligent discussion regarding game design, then, well, I have bad news for you. 
actually most of this HAS been directly related to the (numerous, cool, interesting) shots that KP posted.

I'm afraid that there aren't enough people mapping right now for a new 15-20 posts in a thread to be all screenshots (err wait... actually that's over in the Honey map jam thread!). 
Right.., Back On Toppic 
Here are some screenshots from work in progrez.
shoot screen shots 
Wow, Love The First Shot 
looks great, a few suggestions:
-marble tile floor texture looks out of place, I'd suggest something more like city4_1.
-I'd use a darker, solid rock texture (actually city4_1 might work) with less obvious lines, for the lining of the arch.
-See how it looks with a low minlight (30?) and fog; this might solve the issue of black surfaces next to lit ones.
-make it so rotfish jump out of the water (heh). 
Use A Decent Light Compiler Madfox 
And look at this explanation:


Brushwork looks cool, needs ambience! 
Madfox Saves The Day 
what's going on at the base of the waterfall? is that an mdl?

also, on a scale of "yes" to "absolutely" how much is this your reference image for the first shot? 
More A Dark Night.., 
Tronyn- brushtex is a bit out of order, as it was more a case of will-it work or collaps.
As it works I was planning to use the rock5_2 tex for the cliff.
The light errors were due to the light1.24 of BJ.

@mfx- thanks for the tutorial, almost gave it up after finding Tyrlight.

@Lunaran- whole waterfall is an mdl, at the base is what my poor imagination could think of turbulence.
On the scale to "maybe" and "sure" I must relay to the inspiration and reference thread like four elephants asking: someone should make this fifth.

Cliff Demons" .OBJ pack has fine eyecandy for skyboxes by Poison
Gorgeous Images 
wait, shouldn't that go in the Mapping Inspiration thread?
jokes... actually it's really cool to see what images mappers used for inspiration... perhaps the basis of a future article at Quaddicted. 
Yeah, that looks cool, MadFox. Although aligning all those textures will be a bitch. Great inspiration images, too.

On a somewhat related note, I imagine a Tronyn version of that Ukrainian castle would be like this. (Hint!) 
aka, with way less detail & is very angular, & I should stop pretending there's terrain around it, since any such attempts suck anyway? if so, totally fair!
sh(ee)it with how slow I am my levels should have more detail... so I'll just call it "oldschool/doom style" heh. 
actually it's really cool to see what images mappers used for inspiration
I used that IMAGE for inspiration for the bridge at the front of Zendar. It is not perfectly the same but it has the same vibe. 
Go Madfox 
that looks very nice. +1 on it needing some good looking fog. 
I have only just noticed you can link things with labels on func now.


100 Points For You! 
Wait, How Do I Do That? 
Here - check section - "What HTML markup is allowed in my posts?" 
Lunarana: you've been able to do that since the site was launched... even on Qmap you could do that. Possibly even on Qboard. 
Wtf Lunarana? 
it's like typing bananana you just can't stop 
actually i think i added the anchor tag support after launch... originally you could only put raw URLs and it would auto-convert to links 
A More Important Observation 
I need to stop derailing this fucking thread 
If There Only Was Something Topical You Could Post Instead... 
I've posted a screenshot more recently than you 
I posted two in the jam thread. 
Best Use Of OTT Darkness And Coloured Lighting... 
...I've seen for a while. Evil as fuck. 
Oh Man 
That looks straight up satanic. I love those bone candles. 
@otp: son of a bitch!

@tronyn: son of a bitch! 
I Run Faster To The Moon Than I Become True Purple 
moon runs purple

The last screenshot shows the strange behaviour of using another skybox. It looks as if the green has becomes silver.

I'm searching for a good fog setting.
If I use 0.02 I get a fine effect indoors,
but outside my skybox gets hazy.
So I make my skybox harder in contrast but even setting fog to 0.01 or 0.005 it seems to keep its thickness in outside area's.
The results of the distance wil be due to it. 
these look good. 
Spike some people/bits on those trees! 
Fuck Yeah 
r_skyfog command will set the fog level applied to the sky only.

You can't set it in the map file though. Either enter it manually or put it in a quake.rc file in a game folder.

I don't know if engines other than fitzquake can do this. 
I added it to worldspawn and it works fine.
I'm just obvious about seeing no change in 0.01 and 0.005
I think the scale ends at 2 dec. 
Interesting texture combination, keep going. 
Thanks, Skacky 
I was busy procrastinating :P 
Started Something New 
Looks Cool 
keep it up (and keep it simple)! 
Looks Sweet, Mechtech 
...and strangely familiar...

Look forward to playing the final product! 
Boss Fight :) 
That must be a tronyn level 
I cannot see the phallus for the trees 
Re #11330 
Looks like you used the carpet from my local Gaumont cinema. 
Did a search for "Gaumont cinema"
I think your right about the carpet.
More Gaumont 
My memory is clearly better than I remembered.

It had fairly Quake type ceilings as well

I think most of the Gaumonts were kind of art deco. 
Made something for Plutinya 1024

Danger close

You guys like? 
I Like 
Looks fun :) 
Looks Good 
now please also make a jam map :) 
IMHO coloured lighting is too saturated. Otherwise looks great. 
searching the right light
Make the windows glow in warm yellow:) 
I Feel Guilty... 
for posting that picture. Looks good though madfox. 
the canyon is lit from within and the castle is not. 
@mfx -I took your advice the light tut. The whole canyon is lit with a few lights.

@5th - Won't blame you, more the fact that I haven't seen chance to participate in the mapping jam.

@Lun - I went back to zero light and there are only three lights with a 30 wait 0.4.
It seems large spaces take ohther light advantages than small rooms. 
Ruined Architectural Scale 
A few screenshots (from a map which I may or may not ever finish) illustrating the evils of 16 unit high steps.




And just for good measure...

Step fronts are not for detail 
I don't see a problem tbh. 
I like the scale of those steps, fits Quake. Awesome first shot! 
That is an outstanding looking map alright.

For all the meticulous texture work, though, I'm not sure about the tiled texture on the curved stairs. 
Could you add a couple of that red_dish runic textures
just drop em here and there , right now that looks very monochrome 
What others said: I don't see any problem with the stairs, and it looks really good :) 
Looks Good. 
Release please. 
Rick ! 
Looks awesome.

Please, finish this map, or I'll set an army of fiends to your ass. 
Negke Made Me Smile 
It's from the Z-Kart community project
The 16 unit steps comment is just a bit of a joke referencing a post in the Map Jam 2 thread, as is "step fronts are not for detail".

...I'm not sure about the tiled texture on the curved stairs.

The brown part on the top surface? Not real sure about that myself, but haven't come up with anything better so far.

Could you add a couple of that red_dish runic textures just drop em here and there , right now that looks very monochrome

Yes, the map is mostly grayish brick and stone with wood and rusty metal here and there, and slightly tech looking light fixtures. That's pretty much the way I want it.

I had a big red window at one point and some yellow lights under a bridge, but several people said that looked out of place. I guess you actually mean the little squares with the runic symbols like you see on exit teleporters? 
No Red Needed 
IMO. Also stairs look fine, if not mind glowingly gorgeous. What's holding you back now? Still struggling with limits? 
"step fronts are not for detail"

I meant 8 unit steps.

"I can't fit any detail in there!"
"So don't!" 
I know, I was just making a bit of a joke.

The 16 unit steps are obviously staying. I might change the name of the map to "Ruined Architectural Scale" though. Has a nice ring to it, eh?

Anyway, here's one more picture. I figure if I just actually work on the thing I could finish it pretty soon. It's really just minor nit-picky things that need doing now, it's playable as is.

Wanted: Sexy vampire chick to perch on ledge 
Love The New Expansions If Stock Textures 
Someone really should make a new id megawad with all the stock and all the new id1 variants made by sock, than etc 
Release that before jam3 so it can be the theme 
That Was Re: The Megawad 
but yeah, it applies to both 
I know, I was just making a bit of a joke.
Your behaviour is not a joke, this is you being an online bully because you feel my comments are a reflection on your own work. As I have stated this is my views and work ethics and it does not mean you have to be a jerk about it.

Getting everyone to agree to your view point by showing screenshots of a map you have been pushing brushes around on for a year with no before or after comparison of steps heights does not prove your point, it just makes you look petty and vindictive. 
*Stair Wars Theme Playing* 
now as someone who has an unfortunate tendency to be petty and vindictive, but who also uses 16 unit stairs... least don't threaten to not finish the new well of wishes, if it's already playable! 
Step Size 
I find the 'discussion' on step/stair size quite interesting as I couldn't remember what I used to do.

So I just reinstalled BSP, loaded an old map and had a look. Wow! I can see I was firmly on the side of sitting-on-the-fence (or perhaps that should be handrail)

For narrow staircases I mostly used 16 unit step size. For wider staircases e.g. the stairs up to the Imp's Castle in FMB-BDG2, I often used a 16 unit rise with an 8 unit step at the front, giving a sloping tread.

I do remember that I tried to introduce a degree of asymmetry into my maps, so maybe that also had something to do with it.

(that's if anyone gives a toss) 
To Be Fair 
Rick did kind of go apeshit in response to socks comments which, while ovely prescriptive, were certainly not aimed at him. 
Lol @ Stair Wars. 
I get that step do look a bit bulky at 16 units but it shouldn't be something to start a flame war over. 
I Propose 
That us 16 unit purists start a new messageboard which more adequately reflects our values. 
Can You All Fucking Stop Now 
Map Jam 3! 
16 Unit Stairs Only! 
16 Units World 
for the next mapjam or speedmap.

All the brushes should have at least one dimension (heigth, width, depth) of 16 units. 
Splinter Group 
sixteen unit stairs with textured fronts that subtly convey the feel of 8 unit stairs without the extra polys/work to build them.

Anyone with me? No..?

how about making a ramp with a stair texture on it? With a parallax shader it might work. 
Ramp loses the detail of the player view shifting up each step... guess you could hack in a camera animation that fakes stepping.

On that note, I actually noticed while testing my Jam2 map that Quake does a funky thing where it shifts your camera up/down a staircase when you are on them if you are in a default view (don't mouselook at all). I hadn't realized it did that but that seems really smart when you consider that most players were expected to play Quake with keyboard only. 
I Think It Does That On Ramps As Well. 
Time To Get Back On Topic 
Or Make A Shader That Just Procedurally Builds The Map 
Then just make a box room, and apply the shader... 
On Topic 
that's not ...

why do i even try with you people 
Bobbin' On The Stairs 
I often would put clip brushes over 16 unit stairs to turn them into ramps so as to stop the bobbin'. They still looked like stairs but the player would glide up them. 
We did that all through Unreal Tournament as well ... players would rather slide up staircases. It's less jarring to the camera. 
I think in Quake, the player will slide down when standing on those fake ramps, no? 
He will. But who stands still in Quake? :P 
This is why I don't clip stairs in Quake. I do clip stairs in other engines though. 
Quake also has ramp jumps, which shouldn't happen on stairs.

I think the small bit of camera bob, done with some smoothness so it's not too obscene, helps with immersion. People are used to stairs in real life, and stepping up a step is accompanied by your head being lifted up at that moment as well, not a smooth gradient upwards that a character's bounding box would do as it slides up a ramp. 
Lol What 
if this view-tilting is not smooth enough, it's obscene? strong word choice I would have gone with "annoying." 
Standing still happens in Quake. Fighting often happens on or around stairs, and since they physically behave differently players will expect their movement to be one thing or another, cued by the geometry that they see. Sometimes the best safe place to peg an ogre or taunt a fiend might be standing on some stairs, and sliding out of position in that case when you don't expect to would be annoying.

Also, everyone avoids ever jumping around on stairs because stepfinding doesn't happen while you aren't FL_ONGROUND so stairs become momentum-killing walls, so ramp-clipped stairs is a confusing signal that way, too.

easy solution: actual ramps!

Quake3 had nicely fixed camera movement and physics going both up and down stairs (so you don't run off the top of the top stair and go DOOF DOOF DOOF all the way down), but messing with Quake player physics in .qc or the engine is probably unreasonable. 
although now that I've said that the engine guys who read this forum will see it and by the weekend we'll have three new network protocols and "sv_useoldstairphysics 0" 
I'm Thirsty 
for screenshots 
Post Yours 
I Have None 
If Life Were As Easy To Solve As That 
... We would be completely bored.

Make some.

For example, you can do something for the jam2. In the 48 hours that remain till the deadline, you can finish something as big as the shortest ones in jam1. 
Here's something I'm working on. in editor because I'm new to this and have yet to compile a map/didn't research how yet!!!

also texturing comes later! I hope you fill in the details with your brain so it's not so ugly. 
Have you mapped before? That looks pretty decent!

I suggest learning how to compile sooner rather than later, just in case you have some gotchas. It can be easy to make bad brushes or something that the compiler won't like, and it's nice to know that as you build!

Here's where I link my getting started mapping tutorial and point you at 'Tools of the Trade' and 'Time to Compile' sections! 
I played a lot in Hammer before, and DromED (which was a failure), and dark radiant but never released anything. I've finished a number of maps that were mostly quick throw-togethers.

This is some of my older stuff I made in Hammer, never really had much of a game play plan for it, but it was intended to be ported to the dark mod. I like to think I'm very good at storytelling, and think of a lot of ways to tell stories through level design and lots of creepy stories to tell. That's what I'm doing with my map up there, but I'd never sacrifice game play for story...I want to be great at both.

I'll have to look at that later on, and thanks for the advice! I'm trying to go on the general rule if it doesn't crash trenchbroom it won't make a compiler kill itself. 
Failing At DromEd Doesn't Surprise Me 
I should know it, I still have a Thief map in the backburner that's on hold due to stupid compilation errors. NewDark made things easier but the interface is still a pain and the compilers are dogshit.

Your stuff looks pretty cool map, keep it up! 
Nice shots, reblinds! This one is particularly intriguing. I'm ready to play when it's done.

Make some.

I am :) Just not screenshot material yet. I posted a couple dozen shots these last 30 days. I wanna see what other people are doing! 
by "this one" i meant 
Welcome To The Dungeon, Reblinds 
Good brushwork there. Looks good, I can see that the inspiration comes from sources outside Quake.

When you finish reading the wiki continue with this and this, this and this are for later. 
Thank You Everyone! 
Man you guys are really supportive. I should have posted years ago when Quake mapping interested me. My main inspirations are Thief and Quake. I just hope I can make an effective non-linear level where the secrets are more focused on alternate routes and giving the player combat advantages through that. That's one of my goals. I'm gonna have quite a bit of reading to do, but thank you for everything, this is all really exciting for me! I'll try to get back to you guys with some more finished content later on. 
This community must have changed in recent years. He called us supportive! 
Continuing on the supportive note, you should check out sock's maps, esp. zendar. It's a prime example of exactly what you're trying to do. He also wrote a along article on his web where he explains many of his choices. 
Hexagons, Hexagons, And Orange Hexagons. 
Makes me feel like Tron. 
Reminds me a little of Ribbiks' releases, "Swim with the Whales" and "Stardate 20X6" in terms of its one-colour contrast theme. Could turn into something interesting if the idea is approached well, but that all depends on which direction you're planning to take this map toward. 
In fact, a hexagonal themed texture set could help compliment the visuals, i.e. perhaps some dark, neutral coloured hex-floor tiles to dial down on using solid black. 
There's a Sunder map that's made with lots of hexagons as well. 
Aard's 10 sector map was made of randomly generated hexagon sectors: 
Thanks For The Comments, Guys. 
The map I'm making is inspired by Ribbiks's entry for Doomworld Mega Project 2013 
If You Like Quake And Thief 
Not sure if irony, but 
I wasn't, I think it would be neat to see more people making ITS maps. 
A Map I Was Making Back In 2006 That Never Gonna Be Finished 
Sure it will :)

Give it a push! 
Push it into MFX's email pls 
that looks good, why will it not be finished? 
was looking on phone before.
On laptop, those look really nice - very solid theme going on, it looks like. If you don't want to finish, you should seriously consider posting the scraps! 
I'm Making Another Map For Plutinya 
Cool Style 
Yeah Man 
looks classy and interesting.
I love how flexible Doom is in that regard. 
That's cool. One of the rare shots that makes a Doom level look like an actual place rather than an abstraction. 
I was making this map for a while a long time ago (textures are mix of speedbase, quake2 and some other wads), then moved to another city without pc, then finished arcanum map, then was busy with real life, then found these screenshots in my id1 folder in 2014. I lost the idea of it. Tho need to check if the map file is somethere at my current pc. 
A rare day with no work and university work I can procrastinate has led to me opening up an editor for the first time in a decent while.

Obviously incomplete, just working out a style. 
Is That Darkplaces? 
Looks pretty rad.... 
Doom 3. 
I like it, the ceilings with the inset bits are cool, but the overall shape of that area is quite square. I think it would benefit from either changing the floor height in some parts just up and down a bit or making that left wall bow outwards a bit and to get some angles in there.

Nice vegetation models, btw, are they yours? 
the overall shape of that area is quite square.

doom3's rectilinear light volumes perversely encourage you, for performance reasons, to build areas of the same shape.

that's about as good as rooms in doom3 get! 
Yeah... I dabbled in D3 for a bit and really disliked that about the lighting. :(

Still, I doubt many people would have trouble running a map with 3 or even 4+ lights on the majority of the surfaces if they are small like the above screenshot these days. 
This is just really a little passageway between areas, if it gets expanded out more then there will be more interesting shapes for sure.

Vegetation models are downloaded from some stock models site, can't remember the name right now. I've been playing with different material techniques to try and get some plants in Doom 3 that don't look like total arse. Having nice assets to start off with certainly helps.

With regards to light counts, Doom 3 is ten years old. I just operate under the mindset that so long as it runs on my five year old machine I don't care about things like light counts. 
I just operate under the mindset that so long as it runs on my five year old machine I don't care about things like light counts.

I think that's a safe assumption to make. I'd like to see some doom3 maps that are in the same vein as modern q1sp where you just make whatever as long as it runs good on a modern machine. 
Doom 3 Makes Me Cry Sometimes 
I'd been paying so much attention to getting some nice faked bounce lighting going on that I completely forgot to check what any entities looked like in the area. Stuck an imp in and it was half in darkness with ugly solid black shadow that didn't fit in at all with the lighting of the area. Pulled out a couple of the lights and replaced them with a larger one which doesn't look as good but at least things fit into the environment better.

I should have remembered to check that earlier, been caught out by it in the past. That's what I get for not doing any serious mapping for a few years.

Fucking unified lighting. >.>

So not much progress to show, apart from that I've just been experimenting with various lighting tricks like god rays, thanks to help from Zombie. 
isn't there a way to use shaders to apply lighting only to some shaders and not others? you could make a new shader for the monsters and have lights that only work on them and not the world. lots of extra work though. :( 
You Can Do Exactly That 
Was discussing that idea with Zombie earlier tonight, it's a crazy amount of work though since the tools aren't set up to do it easily. 
Doom3 Lighting 
is really painful sometimes. tho it's very powerful, it's hard to make everything look good 
If you have the time, painting special light shaders can help a lot.
If you are making world geometry in a 3d editing suite, there's the option of baking on lightmaps as well.

But yeah, it's mainly inflexible unless you are willing to dump tons of time into it.

However, these days I think you could get away with making oversized light volumes with the exponential light shader and lighting areas like you would a quake map... 
I painted unique volumetric lightmaps for a silly Quake4 map. Results weren't bad, but it took a while and meant even less flexibility.

Raven added a little fudged normal map contribution to the ambient light shader in Quake4 (Doom3's was just flat diffuse) because we just had to use it so damn much. Every multiplayer map except DM11 had one big ambient light covering the entire thing, because otherwise nobody could fucking see the other players. 
Replayed Strombine just yesterday checking out that lighting technique you used, I think I'm definitely going to be stealing that gui based interaction system you came up with for it. 
I read Tron as Tronyn and was pretty confused. 
Oh Yeah 
I forgot I even did that. It's a GUI plane with nothing in it, right? So you get the interaction with nothing displaying? You should probably take it a step further and have some kind of glowing interaction hint display in worldspace, like the hand icon in RTCW.

It might not work in Doom3 though, I think D3's GUIs had to have an opaque background? If it doesn't you could fake it with doomscript. Doomscript was the only good part of that engine and it was great.

also I think Tron, Tyrann, and Tronyn should merge into a superentity and do battle with DazDranz and negkcros. 
Doomscript was the only good part of that engine and it was great.

Hell yes. I loved that scripting engine. 
Jim Dose took it with when he left id and now it's in L4D2/Portal2 and called Squirrel. :P 
I'm all in favor of this super-entity idea, so long as I get to be one of the arms.

Been playing around with creating a custom ambient texture, Strombine style. Produces some nice effects around vegetation when a bit of colour is introduced for the filtered green light and I think it's definitely getting adopted as a standard technique by me. Can't really see it in effect in this shot, but I figured everyone can enjoy a fine wall of Imp ass. 
Early Quake 2 Project Made In TB 2.

No screens but it's a really, really, early look at what I've managed to do with TB2 so far. I have to say this is going to be an awesome time for Quake 2 players when TB2 is finally here. 
Hear Hear! 
SW And Also For Those Who Dont Have Quake 2 Installed 
I had to edit the .map file cause I couldn't find the way to edit the face properties. (I kind of copied whatever the properties from an identical file in quark, fairly easy to do actually but a real ghetto way of mapping also) 
Looks Good 
The warm lighting fits with the textures, but the cooler lights don't as much, maybe you'll need to tone down the saturation on those ones, except on the third screenshot. 
I'm just gonna sneak this in here before I go to bed... 
overgrowth and bare fluorescents go well together. are these your textures? the ornate copper floor and ceiling are beautiful. also pipes and ventilation vanes!

probably the most visually boring is the mineshaft... 
WOW Hipshot 
This map is incredibly beautifull. I played it a bit on my Mac mini, and it's running very well. I'll try it with some bots tomorrow.

Really awesome work ! 
Necros And Barnak 

Some are mine, some are just photosourced from cgtextures. But I produced them all into the level if that means anything.

The actual ornate floor and ceiling are actually more or less like the source, but the pipes I've made myself, the small pipes are actually a really old texture.

Feel free to use the textures, I'm gonna make a source release of this later on too, all max files, map file etc 
By "superentity" are we talking a human centipede kind of dealie? Sounds fun. 
You can edit the surface and content flags in the face inspector by clicking on the ... Buttons. 
I feel like an idiot if I missed that. 
Looking good man. Will download later. 
Cocerello's Map 
The map is ok, but (as others already said) has a very bad gameplay. I write this just after I played the map, I came here to see what others say, I thought maybe I'm stupid or something. I played on EASy skill, I repeat - EASY (skill 0), not even normal.

You say the map is unfair only on hard, sorry, but that's bullshit, pleas try to play your own map on EASY and see how easy it is. I ran out of ammo quite fast, playing with just the axe is not fun at all, especially when you are fighting death knights and fiends.

Otherwise the map is ok, but please, please, next time try to test your own map, at least a quick run from start to end on normal or easy to see if it's "doable". 
Bad Post 
Somebody please delete the previos post, it was meant for other thread, I can't edit it or delete it :( 
Play it where it lies! 
Quake Was Made For Little Girls, Sissies And Grannies ! 
All these old nannies are knitting and stretching their wool : 
Post #11468 Undeleted 
we don't have a delete feature, and if it is flagged as spam your IP address gets blacklisted, which is not what you want, so i unflagged it. 
Not really a screenshot, just some initial test bits for a quake texture pack I plan to make when I got a bit more time. 
Very Nice 
Have you done any PXart before? 
If by PXart you mean pixelart, then yes, infact I am a professional game artist who is specialised on pixelart. 
Me and my friend [url=]released a a pixel art game last autumn[/url], where I made almost all art, I've also considered making some q1 textures with the q1-palette.

I'm always looking for talent, do you have some home page or portfolio? 
You can go to which links to my slightly outdated art blog and pixeljoint gallery. That should give you an idea of my skillset. ATM I am mainly focusing on getting better at 3D in my freetime. 
you made Hammerwatch?! I freaking love that game, me and my friend played the co-op for hours when it first came out!

Ptoing, your stuff reminds me of old school bitmap brothers - 
Thanks, the Amiga OCS stuff by Dan Malone is certainly an influence. 
seriously though, I hope you do make a full set in this style, would be amazing. 
I plan to. It will probably take a while because of work related stuff. Work first and all that. But I am pretty fast once I got going, and once I got some decent base textures for metal and rock and all that those kinda things should be fairly fast as well. But yeah, plan is to make a full set or sets. Base, Metal, Rock, Weird shit.
Yep, yep. 
Omg Bitmap Brothers... 
I loved xenon 2 
I Really Need To Start Signing In... 
Ptoing, your style reminds me a bit of heretic. I like the orange, not many textures like that. 
Thanks. The colour I used is not indicative of the colours in the final textures, just one of the 16 colour ramps to get a good base. But I want to make textures with colour variants which are not that common in the original Quake set.
I still have to experiment and get a feel for the colours and which ones work well together. 
Looking forward to seeing more of this! 
Bitmap Brothers 
I always wanted to play Gods, and spent hours trying to guess how it would be in reality, based on some full color double DIN A-3 pages in a magazine, that had all the levels in the game on those pages, as a guide to complete it.

Xenon 2 is also a game i miss a lot. I always loved the feature about buying weapons, upgrades and bomb-like equipment, like the one where you get enough weapons to fill the bottom of the screen for a few seconds.
Unfortunately, those are the only games i know done by them.

Looking forward to you work, Ptoing. If you do it quickly enough, it could be the next map jam theme ;) 
Doubt it will be ready for the next map jam, but yeah, would be cool if it was used for a jam when it's done. Would love to see what you guys can do with it. 
Oh hey ptoing, remember you from Apedogs and Unit16 when I used to lurk there a couple of years back. I have no doubts those textures are going to go out like hotcakes :] 
Hah, small world. 
Some more stuff. Maybe I should make an own thread for this? And yes, I plan on doing colour variants of probably most of the textures. Or at least for the ones where it makes sense. 
the top row looks the best. like bronze or something... would be cool if there was some teal/green in there like the id *cop* textures. 
Yeah, teal/green could be nice. So far I am very much still in an experimental phase, seeing which colours work together well. Top row looking best I would say is highly subjective, thought I quite like it myself.

I think that it will heavily depend on the surrounding textures used and as such I will have variants of almost all textures in my pack. a) because it's easy and b) mappers will have a lot more variety to choose from to give accents to their maps or use it for stuff like secrets, hints and the like.

Oh btw, I have not tried this yet, but I take it max amount of animations for a texture is 10? +0 to +9? 
Are those too small? I would have expected twice the size (or maybe map editors always scale up textures?) 
Those rune animal ones are 32x32, which is the size of the red rune textures in quake for example. I will probably make combinations of different ones as well, and have them as single ones too.

Most textures in Quake are 64x64 actually, I will probably go more towards 128x128 for walls since that will allow for more variation on bricks and such. And it's not too much more work.

But yeah, I think I will make a new thread for this and post my updates there. Don't wanna clog up this thread. 
This Is A WIP Thread 
so if it it's WIP then it's the right place to post. It will be nice to see a new texture set... shame it's not purple (we're dying for a purple set here!) 
Func Threads Are More For Large Discussions 
ie flamewars 
Damn Straight 
Fifth: There will be purple variants. VARIANTS OF EVERYTHING! I reckon that I will have over 1000 textures when this is done. Because variants are quick. Like make a brick texture. Make a banged up variant, make an even more banged up variant. That is 3 textures.

And then 5 or 6 colour variants of each of those and potentially mixes where you combine 2 or 3 coloured bricks into one texture for more funky kinda layouts, which would already be 15-20 textures from one basic brick texture alone.

And again, yes, purple will be available, I promise :) 
So I Was Wondering 
Just made a 128x128 brick texture and then made 9 really quick brightness variants. This is really easy to do and surface colour vs lighting in the level is something to take into account.

But I was wondering if this would be a bit overkill. Because once I do other colours (not every ramp is as stretchable as the browns) and stuff like mossy variants and so on it will quickly go to 100 variants for this single texture alone.

This also makes me wonder how to best organise the wad file. It is probably best to break it up into several wads. Question is how exactly. Theme makes sense. Base, Metal, Medieval, Runic and so on. But the question is whether to break it up into colour sub wads or what. Suggestions are welcome. 
are you a god damn wizard. How did you make a 21 colour texture look 24 bit? Like seriously?
Also, careful with the last 2 lines of the quake palette, if you didn't already know the last 2 lines are reserved for full brights. (just checked and I'm sure you've avoided this problem anyway but still)

As for texture organisation, just make sure you name the textures well. Like wall1, wall2, wall3, trim1, trim2, trim3, light1, light2, light3 etc etc. 
My 2c 
I think 8 different shades of the same texture is overkill. 3 is probably the sweet spot (bright, middling, dim) as level designers can then use the three shades to make cool shapes.

I would rather see variations of the texture with different trims, misc small details like blood, scorch marks, etc as then level designers can also incorporate those elements of the textures into the game play of the map.

Textures do look great though! 
Hehe, Thanks. And yeah, I am aware of all the ins and outs of the Quake palette, colormap and so forth. I actually have 2 palettes I work with, one with and one without the fullbrights so that if I use dirty tools like blending and the like no fullbrights can creep in.

Yeah, it will probably end up being.

brik##gr kinda format and use the #s for variant and shade and the gr for colour, so that would be green or something, will see.

But so you are saying, basically yes, more variants are useful.

I can see that, since you might wanna make a level that has an area of dark bricks without being actually that dark, or use lighter bricks in some not so well lit areas.

I fear that this set will go into the 10s of thousands, haha, not even kidding. It could happen. 
Just a quick thing that popped into my head : Consider doing some extremely large versions of some of the "bread and butter" textures in your set. For example in czg's level "Honey" there is a 512x512 wall texture that is all simple brick but has loads of different grime, grit, dust and moldy bits on it. It really helps break up the repeating nature of the large surfaces in that map! 
Ah, posted at the same time as DaZ was.

I will totally make variant stuff with less destruction, more destruction, blood, trims, what have you. And those will only become more once I amass a bigger texture library to combine from. But this variant thing for the shades is literally 5 seconds of work. But I also see where you are coming from with the 3 brightness versions.

What probably is also something to take into account is mixed brightness/colour textures. Since doing that with brushes would be a bit tedious/overkill. 
Yeah, see what you are saying. I will have a look at the Honey textures.

This one being 128x128 is already bigger than most original Quake ones, where stuff like bricks usually was 64x64. I will have 64x64 ones in there, but I kinda doubt I will do that for bricks. 
Btw, what are the naming conventions for quake testures. Do the names have to be 8 symbols only or can they be longer? 
are those palettized? if so, good job. if not, you should check to be sure it looks ok.

if you want to make huge amounts of variations, go for it, but please don't lump them all in one wad file. a mapper can easily load multiple wad files to get whatever textures they want, but it will just be a mess to sort through hundreds of textures in a single file. 
there's only 21 colours and they're all on palette... I'm blown away to be honest. 

Nice work! Looking forward to seeing them on a map!

Are you the same Ptoing from Pixelation forum by any chance? 
Yeah, they are palettised. I work in Cosmigo Promotion which is geared toward indexed work/pixelart and animation. So nothing here was painted at a higher bitdepth and quantised down, it is from scratch using the Quake palette.

And here is a little teaser for FifthElephant :)

About the organisation, yeah. I don't think I would have them all in one wad. It will for sure be wads sorted by theme, texture type so they can be easily found as well and you will have groups that make sense in editors like Trenchbroom.

What would be good to know is if I can give the textures longer names than 8 symbols, and which symbols are allowed. I reckon alphanumeric only and _- or something? seeing as + and * are special. Any clearing up in this regard would be much appreciated. 
than: Yes I am. To my knowledge there is one other person that goes by the name of ptoing but our paths have not crossed so far.

metlslime: thanks a lot :) 
Textures Can Have Names Longer Than 8 Symbols 
but I don't know what the maximum length is. 
It says 15 characters in there. And I reckon 15 should be enough.

brick1_2purple is 14, so yeah. 15 should be plenty enough. 
These Textures Are Pretty 
But they're very big.

I think brick works well if it's small and dense. It's interesting that you have stuck to the same palette gradient in order to get more out of the texture colour range.
It might need to be made grittier or dirtier in order to fit the quake aesthetic, using noise and colours from other sections of the palette.

Here's a really simple room I just made - 
In this screenshot the texture is scaled to 0.5 in order for it to fit with quake's scale. 
Hm? Why scale it down, I am confused. The texture is 128x128, but has the same scale as all brick textures in quake, just less repeat. As in the bricks are the exact sam