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Nehahra
I've found that adding to the Obscurus thread for Nehahra related stuff is moderately depressing, so with some substantial Nehahra releases in the future, I thought it best to give it its own thread.

This is the place to voice any comments or suggestions on Nehahra, as it is being revamped and the final official episode of the main Nehahra/Quake storyline is in development.

Progress in that department can always be found at:

http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra/revamp.html

It would be especially helpful to mention any bugs noticed when trying to play and/or map for Nehahra. Chances are I'm aware of it and have rectified it or intend to do so.

Suggestions for new features are welcome, even though there's already a truckload of those in the game (not to mention a lot of cleaning up -- where possible -- of wonky setups to certain features). Maybe I'll share some that I didn't share on the revamp page on here in the future. For the most part, once the release happens including the Devkit2.txt, a mapper with the intention of making a Nehahra map will have such a broad range of freedom and options that it might well result in them being committed to a local sanitarium.

Speaking of that, if anyone is working on a Nehahra map or episode that I don't know about. Clue me in. You can count on my interest. I know of several already.

The ones that I do not know the current status of are:

http://www.donut.prima.de/skyneh/skyneh.html

(what happened to this?)

and

http://www.glassman.mistral.co.uk/gmsp2pics/gmsp2pics.htm

(Glassman needs to answer his emails!)

--
Argh 
Not sure how I ended up with clone threads :/ 
Woo! 
Posting in clone of historic thread. 
Dead Clones And Phil Music 
The clone thread was murdered.

And I actually got off my arse and expended the atp molecules to register. Wonders never cease.

For the Ph1l fans:

http://www.backblast.com/files/thephil.mp3

Heh. 
Mindcrime 
11. Thinking about adding in a custom_monster entity for mappers who want to build maps post-release. It will basically enable the mapper to add in custom monsters not in Nehahra. All it will take is some know-how.

That would be a wicked, nice feature. I'm often beside myself wondering how to form natural groupings of monsters. It would be nice to be able to plug in a few extra ones to fill out a theme. 
Oi 
Oi. Though the entity name will be monster_custom. It will involve a handful of defining entities. But once you have all the entities that define that monster in the map, you need only do it once and you can then place as many of those monsters as you want.

For most mappers this will be too much, as it's practically coding a monster.. from inside the map! heheh

Though you could just as easily use models already in Quake and Nehahra and turn them into unique boss monsters too. 
Demo To DVD 
You should sell DVD's with the Nehahra movies on it. Easier to watch them on TV.

JoeQuake .dem to .avi ---> avi ---> DVD.

;) 
Nehahra Movie 
Hehe... I'm not in the business of selling DVDs.

Btw, on a movie related note, I've started posting the Seal of Nehahra script. I'll add to it a little here and there in my free moments. Eventually it'll be complete. (I reckon I'll add game scenes in the end too).

But it's right here:

http://www.planetquake.com/nehahra/SON.html

Only the first 3 scenes so far :> 
Skynet 
I talked to him about 3 years ago.

He didn't have the time to finish the pack, but offered me his two partially finished Nehahra maps if i wanted to do something with them. I declined at the time, but i'll fire him off another email and see what he has lying around. 
Skynet 
Hmm, cool. You could drop me his email too at: mindcrime@planetquake.com.

Maybe I had the wrong addy when I tried. 
Mindcrimef: 
good job! now you will get 100x more spam 
 
Like I don't already? run a search on my email.. It's all over the furgin place. :) I just delete the spam as it comes. ;) Nothing can make it worse than it already is. 
Another Phil-ism 
Fall of Chthon

A song inspired by Quake, Seal of Nehahra and one song made of Doom II. It's a lil' story of Phil, when he encounters the big lava monster Chthon in the end of Quake's episode one.

http://jace.ath.cx/?p=musicdl

Scroll down.

Not quite as humorous as thephil.mp3, but fun. 
Let�s Dig The Holes And Find All 
let�s dig the holes and find all the addons lost! :) if u want i can email again glassman mindcrime! 
Trinca Diggin Holes 
Easy there, trigger. Calm down. Regulate your breathing. :) 
Whoa 
Phil said "y'all"
Hmm 
Phil did? :o

I've already gotten emails thanking me for starting to put up the script. Geesh, I only mentioned it here and not on the Neh page (I wanted to have more of it up first before I linked it there).

I'm being watched. *looks around, paranoid* Heheh. 
Uh-huh 
Yeah, buncha lazy bastards y'all are.

See thephil.mp3. 
Doh 
He did indeed. :D 
Hubs & Other Stuff 
While the Nehahra game doesn't use any hub system, whereby you can return to maps you were previously and find them as you left them, but I had a lot of success working with a hub system in Obscurus (even if it requires saving games differently for it).

For potential mappers who will use Nehahra in the future, do you suppose I should plug this in for you prior to release?

On that note, is there anything in particular any of you mappers would like to see in addition to what will already be in the game (which is already quite A BIT).

I'm trying to think ahead a little here. If Headthump or anyone has any thoughts on this, I wouldn't mind hearing them.

Chances are, about anything you can think of.. I have coded at one time or another and have the code ready for it. I just don't want to clutter the progs.dat needlessly with stuff no one will ever use.

Something to chew on... 
Coincides With Today's Discussion 
A crouch function that could be used in Nehahra based projects that use Q3 bsps would be very useful.

If you use any of the current crouch modified .qc's with a Q3 bsp, you can crouch under things,
but if you stand while still under them you will find yourself going through those objects, if they are part of the hull. A little collision detection before allowing a return to stand should clear that up.

This is the code base I have tested

ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pc/games/idgames2/quakec/misc/crouch2.zip

Also, A hub system would be very, very nice. 
Crouch 
I never understood the point of crouching...

To quote from the text file from that link:

Most of the levels in quake do not have much in the way of waist high obstacles, so use this to hide underwater or behind windows, or, just to look cute.

"Just to look cute"? :)

In all seriousness though, explain to me the merit of being able to crouch.. I don't refute it (yet?).. I just don't see it. 
Also 
A point entity that can be placed in either fog or shadowed areas that can fuzz up the monsters perceptions of the presence.

The Q3 Bsp/crouch that takes advantage of the Q3bsp hull method idea can be discarded if it is too radical a departure from Quake 1 norms. 
Edit #21 
player's presence. 
To Me, 
it adds a bit to a player's tactical options, and
can be used to create alternative means of linking areas. Though I would agree with anyone who thinks crouching was used a bit too much in the Half Life addons. 
Hmm 
I don't know if I'm all that keen on Q3 maps in Quake 1. That is.. I'm all for it.. if the q3 map is indistinguishable from a highly detailed Q1 map (: If it *looks* like a Quake3 map... textures rendered in that detailed but plastic and soulless Q3 style... Blegh..

And it's not a matter of departure. Adding things like crouching is cake. But it always seemed to me to be a feature that really only exists for the novelty of it being there (rather than having any decent helpful use).

The only merit I can see is being able to map areas that you have to crouch and creep to get into (ala Q2).. What else is there? 
Oops 
Sorry, somehow I missed post #24. Eyes zipped right over it. 
The Merit Of Crouching 
If you stand over a corpse and crouch up and down very quickly it looks like you're trying to hump the corpse. Mind you this is only useful in coop or deathmatch modes. 
R.P.G... 
...pics please. 
Mindcrime 
can you make a progs.dat that would have all the mapping features, but would not need Neh to be installed (ofcourse that means no new monsters/models) 
Oi 
When the re-release happens, of course, there are now game modes, settable in the maps (for the mapper's convenience), settable by CVAR (for the player's which trumps the former). Player has choice of play.

Nehahra has a vanilla quake mode.. where if you load up a standard Quake map, you would be hardpressed to tell the difference. It plays the same (the original monsters... behave as they originally did.. at least those who underwent some changes in AI or whatnot.. but Nehahra entities, when used, are there, i.e. mapping features, additional monsters).

I will be releasing a version of Nehahra that plays on other engines (It's not as if this is that difficult). My only hitch on this concerns engines that do not support some of the most important features, like alpha/transparency, the lack of which may compromise the integrity of a map or more specifically the intention of the mapper. The other stuff is chiefly take-or-leave it (like dynamic red light on gaunt boomerangs and stuff like that .. and there won't be Nehahra .dems included as I think the DP engine is the only engine that supports that demo protocol).

I'd rather not like a situation where I have 6 or 7 different progs.dat for each engine, but perhaps one progs.dat that checks for extensions. My focus is not on this at the moment, of course, but I have been preparing for this and will be doing it... despite my being a champion of the new Nehahra engine.

Did I answer your question somewhere in there? (: 
 
Mindcrime said: "I will be releasing a version of Nehahra that plays on other engines" perfect for me :) i can use qrack,joequake,fitzquake,tremor,fteqw or any other in my choise :)

hey mind did u know anything about glassman and the other guy? 
On The Note Of "all Engine" 
I had discussed this with metl some and will much more before I'm through.

It may be inevitable that different progs.dat files are required in the end. I know from my experience with my stint with 'Nehahra Nekkid' that Nehahra maps that made heavy use of transparency for use as glass look sh1t without the transparency... this would perhaps lead to tacking on ugly hacks to remove the brushes that used .alpha (which is a lesser of two evils).

Some engines support fog, some don't. Most engines support skyboxes, a few don't.

It will be done but might prove to be tricky.

Speeds: also.. in response to your question which I guess I didn't quite answer...

Yes, I could make a progs.dat with Nehahra mapper features that require no additional files. Okay.. that require just a few files (explodable brushes need rubble MDLs). But if the capability to use new monsters is there (and there's quite a few more added to the list with Episode 4) why in god's name not have them there for use? 
 
only to be able to make a standalone map that doesnt need Neh to be installed 
Oi. 
Not a big problem. But is a map that has its own progs.dat "stand-alone"?

Yes, I could do that. You realize, absent of fog and skyboxes and transparency and the like which are engine based, there's not a trigger or function in Nehahra that wouldn't work on any engine (software included).

It might be nifty to put together a little package like that. 
MacNehahra 
After having played and enjoyed Nehahra several times, an anguishing question is bugging me: are they chances the new "all engine" release version will include MacNehahra? 
Errrr... 
I don't know about a Mac port to the nehahra.exe... You would have to talk to Bengt. Find his page off the engines page on the nehahra website (his engine is the first listed). Engine stuff is not my department.

However, the new nehahra progs should run fine with the original EXE too... 
No Mac 
or Linux versions from me. But as Mindcrime says, older Neh versions should also work as there (so far) aren't any new engine requirements. 
Oi 
What aguirRe said! 
Rawr 
http://macglquake.sourceforge.net/downloads.html

And darkplaces works on Mac too, you can compile it yourself or get it from Nexuiz.

Hi mindcrime! If you really have a complete hub system just waiting to be dropped into Nehahra, and it won't break other things, then why not go for it... I'm sure *somebody* would do something cool with it.

Actually, I'm curious as to how it works and what data is carried between maps. Health/armor/ammo I assume, but what about monsters killed and items picked up? Will they regenerate when I return to a level? and what about cross-level triggers or the multiple player starts needed in the hub? 
The Tsemoch 
I hope no one is particularly fond of this monster as it is. I do not know what charm that modified Q1test model with the spikes and the weird skin had for me during Nehahra development the first time around, but it doesn't work for me this time. I'm going to change the concept of it a little, still retaining the weapon options. Model and sounds might be completely replaced.

Considering it was one of the least popular monsters.. I don't expect I'll hear many objections. 
Hubs 
Well, putting the hub system won't be as easy as a drag and drop.. but it wouldn't be overly difficult.

For that system, parms and info are smuggled/updated via cvars, stuffcmded aliases, and execing config files... Entering a map where you've already been is technically loading a saved game on a map, only the code catches the player as he reenters, updates items, accounts for some lost time, and repositions the player.

(I probably just gave a bunch of QC coders some bright ideas eh? :>)

Downside: No multiplayer. 
Odd Man Out 
but the Tsemoch hunters were my favorite monsters to fight. 
Tsemoch :| Oof 
Headthump: Would it bother you to see a different model and hear different sounds though? Tactically, AI-wise, I can't change them much. It would damage the integrity of the intended gameplay in neh1m9, for starters. 
Since You Asked For It 
i'll give one suggestion, and that would be to rework some (if not all) the new monster models, in particular, the jagger and gaunt/archgaunt models are pretty bad.
their animations are rather wooden (esp nehah.mdl but also max.mdl->walkanim), and in some cases, poorly timed (the gaunt's death animation).
also, skins could use a bit of work (the jagger's eyes... black circles with solid red pupils and paint.exe spraycan tool red for blood splatters)

also, completly agree, the hunter tsemoch is one ugly model (not even mentioning the skin)

and (i think you mentioned it?) the baron needs some work. his animations are really nice, but they've got some pretty bad vertex dancing in places and from the side, all his vertices look like they were rounded off to the nearest integer coordinate in a very coarse grid... remnants from the conversion process?

heh, hope i don't anger everyone by criticising the 'epic' quake mod of all time. :P

but yeah, i think with some clean models the monsters would really benefit.

cheers :) 
Actually, 
scratch that. i don't care if i anger anyone. XD 
Not At All 
It's the hunter AI and its fight combinations that sets the monster apart. Tweaking the monsters or redoing them from scratch is perfectly understandable. 
Hmm. 
It's okay to critique, necros, especially in areas that have room for improvement.

Since you brought it up, I'll address the monsters you mentioned individually:

Gaunts and Archgaunts:

A lot of their animations were kinda meant to be stiff, but it's irrelevant to talk about. I'll be replacing both models. They'll look conceptually the same (gaunts have purple flesh, have a monk-like persona.. Archgaunts are tall, gaunt, prudish, have horns, and have green skin [the colorization intentional, as gaunt's skin pigmentation changes with age, not that this ever made it into the SON dialogue). I planned that from the beginning.

Max:

I might be replacing him. I have an orgy of sexier humanoid models. If I don't, I planned on tending to the walkanim. In fact, he's based off the hellknight model so just redoing him as he was the first time and keeping the hellknight walk might be the best choice. That walkanim is really only seen in cutscenes, the problems only blatant at certain angles which I tried to avoid when shooting the cuts.. but nonetheless.. I was inexperienced with animating walk frames (now I'd say I'm 'fair' to 'mediocre' at it)

Jaggers:

Here you might be knocking horns with most people, as most people like them as they are. I can say.. they might benefit from blood spatter. Sometimes models in Quake just don't look right without the blood :)

The jagger was based off the Blarg, but the Blarg skin was too divorced from the Quake feel and what I wanted. I did consider replacing the Nehahra jagger with the Obscurus jagger completely but too many people seem to like the jaggers as they are.

(The jaggers perhaps rank up there with 'most favorite monsters')

Whether the Ob jagger might come in and have a place of its own, we'll see...

Nehahra:

Oh.. I have things planned.. *wink*

Barons:

Already redone. 
Re: Jaggers And The Rest 
actually, i didn't mean that the blood didn't belong there, but i was actually refering to the poor use of it. it just doesn't look good the way it is done atm. it's just basically one colour stuck on the ends, which looks kind of cheesy as opposed to say, the fiend, where the blood really looks splattered on-- the claws are completly covered with it, and it gradually gets less thick as you move away from them, not to mention using more than one shade of red to give some depth to it.

also, regardless of what others think, i think the animations are rather poor. :P the legs don't seem to bend much, and i suspect the model looks decent ingame only because of model interpolation whereas it could look truly cool if they were done properly with model interp on top of that.

/shrug again, just my opinions, really. also, keep in mind, i don't really have any problem with their behaviour/AI. iirc, they all acted/attacked etc in cool ways. it's really only the look of them that i'm concerned with at this point.

in response to the others:

regarding the gaunt stiffness, i can understand that they might be intended to look stiff and wooden when moving, but what it comes down to is: do you want them to be animated as you imagine them, and have them look poorly animated, or make some concessions, add a bit more character to the sequences, and have them look well animated. :)

I have an orgy of sexier humanoid models. lol XD
max is actually one of the better made ones, with a lot of expressive sequences (although the run looks a tad unnatural w/regards to shoulder movement), also, the sequences where he jumps back up from lying on his back, could probably do with more undulation. (heh, i'm just getting sidetracked with particulars atm, apologies. :P) 
Hehe 
What you can expect is that all aspects will be better. How much better, dunno, but better is better than nothing. I'll do the best I can with the skill (and time!) I have, and my best is all I can do ;) Given the five year experience gap between then and now, my best might be much better indeed.

(a whole lotta bests and betters in that paragraph)

In the end, we'll see what I come up with. 
Cool 
that's all i can ask.
looking forward to it ^_^ 
Model And Skin Rant 
To tell you the truth though, the bar really isn't all that high in Quake mods. But let's be frank here, Nehahra -- in its untouched form -- has better models than.. what.. 99% of conversions? Even if that's not saying much, it's saying something. It's all in how you choose to compare.

A lot of the time the really well-made models in mods and paks.. are of monsters that completely don't fit. I think I've always been of the mind where it's better to have a mediocre model that fits, than a great model that doesn't (which includes, but is not limited to, being unQuakey). Knowing what fits I suppose just takes the right set of eyes (a level of taste, that you either have or do not have).

Of course, skins greatly impact how a model is perceived. Bad skinmaps and bad skins can have a detrimental effect. But again, I would rather have a cut-and-paste skin that fits and suits the mood, than an elaborately detailed one that has no business being in the game. For me, what's most important, is how it looks in the game and how it wraps the model. I don't give a damn what it looks like if you look at the skin BMP itself. It's immaterial unless... we'll get to the 'unless' in a minute.

I mentioned that I reskinned and reskinmapped the baron. But let me use the original baron as an example. This is probably the favorite Nehahra monster (whether one of the new ones will challenge his title, we'll see).

The original skinmap was god awful. It was just his idle pose. However, because it was his idle pose, I could be sure that the skin pixels would land about where I wanted them to. What you see is what you get. The skin of course used pieces of the death knight skin. An artist I am not, but I knew how to make it fit. (You might notice the gaunt's faces are ripped straight from a classic Quake texture... Are you beginning to see how I think?)

In-game he was scary and a little grainy, but grainy is good.. grainy is crude and crude can be brutal if done right.

I did not receive one complaint regarding the baron in the game (other than the occasional 'why does his shape ripple sometimes?'.. it's arguable that the gentle wandering of his vertexes has almost become part of his identity now..) UNTIL people started looking at him in the model editor and at his skin.

Now, he worked for Nehahra. In the game, he just worked. He visually fit. Even those damned wandering vertexes gave him character from my standpoint. It made him look more alien. (Funnily I received an email complaining that I was going to clean him up).

Sometimes the best things happen on accident or unintentionally. Look at Quake itself.

He didn't become 'a problem' until people wanted to rip him out and stick in their own mods to reskin and rework as they saw fit (which I don't mind.. but is totally *not* my problem).

Ever since I started talking about redoing the models (most heavily then, but I did have them as early as the week after Nehahra was released), I've been getting emails from people saying you-should-do-this-and-that-and-this-and-that and that's fine. I welcome suggestions. I also have a tendency to answer emails. When I got some dialogue going with some, the motives behind the discussion seeped out. Most of them hadn't even played Nehahra. They only downloaded it so they could rip it apart for models, textures, sounds, and the like. I'm all for pillaging mods for good content and base stuff (though I am more inclined to do it myself for defunct mods rather than active ones.. because when you rip from a mod that is still active, you tread a line between tribute and disrespect ... and I suppose it's how you use it that will decide which sentiment was at play..).

But I then have to wonder ultimately.. who the hell am I really working for? For me, or for *them*. The baron worked for me and he worked for Neh and he fit. Should the fact that he doesn't work for someone else who wishes to use him for this or that even be a concern of mine?

A couple years after the release, looking back, I was somewhat glad the baron was almost completely unskinnable. Because I thought.. chances are.. I'd probably find myself downloading some quake mod and some map pack.. and find the baron again with some distasteful/unquakey skin and would then vomit all over the floor.

I have a similar response to reskinned knights and death knights (they are in fact a pet peeve of mine). Sometimes I can see a lot of effort was put forth to make them fit. All the colors are right. Yet it looks wrong. Well designed skin, yet it is dull to the eyes in the game and completely stripped of the 'brutal feel' death knights have that get your blood pumping and make you worry. (my pet name for the offenders are 'kiddie knights')

Ah, so ends my rant :) Ran out of steam.

My point: if it looks right behind the gun barrel, if it looks right in the game, if it feels right, it *is* right. 
I For One 
like the skins in Neh, even if they are a bit wobbly or stiff. Standard Quake monsters have basically the same tech issues and they fit very well. The "crudeness" is a part of the game's personality.

It's the same reason why I usually prefer non-interpolated animations, it looks a bit weird. In Neh I think it's OK, since it's after all a specific conversion and interpolation can be turned off at will.

In the testing of my engines, I've plowed my way through a lot of PCs and TCs and most of their models are just awful (not to mention world texes). Apparently it's not easy to find or produce contents that fit together well. 
Gaunts 
I actually like that model and the animations now that I've look at it. Some of their creepiness comes from their stiffness too perhaps. They move inhumanly (yet not robotically).

Not taking them off the list of things to change.. but I think I might kick them to the bottom of it :/ 
 
baron skin\UVm was a mess, especially considering how good the original EvilBastard's work looks.
animations are slightly worsened, but mostly same as original, but the skin is :\

and for me it was 2x fuckedup, cuase I played on voodoo3 - it auto scales all the textures down to 256 (afair baron has really wide skin, cause of the long sword taking rediculous space on the UVm) resulting look was very blurry

tsemoch skin is a grey-ish mess too

the ogre-enforcers were the best

oh, and funny u mention the pathetic 'modders' who were getting Neh just to rip its content

lazy fucks could have d/l the models from polycount - the are all the evilbastard` models with original skinmaps and hi quality skins by different artists in several styles 
 
Hehe. I agree. I was only using the original baron as an example though.

The conversion was much better this time (well, I'm much better this time...)

I might actually put up a screen of the newly done baron. The way things are looking I might allow one animation sequence that he calls from time to time while idle where the vertexes do shift around (some people thought the 'ripple effect' was neat, doh).

I'm glad you liked the ogre enforcers. Some people bitched about them. :) I'm not touching them though.

fyi, I developed Neh on a v3.

Almost all of the skins are 256x256 now, with a couple exceptions. One that I know of is 256x512. 
 
Oh, and yes.. they could download it from polycount (just like I did!). But then they'd have to do the conversion themselves (and know how not to fuck up the skinmap.. which I already admitted.. I didn't know in 2000), remove objects not need for the DDZ --> baron conversion, merge the sword with the model and animate the sword in his hand, and then add the extra baron-y animations. Lotta work.. and that's if you have any idea what you're doing to begin with.

And yes, Evilbastard rocks.. which is why I did the baron proper this time. 
Ogre Enforcers 
Well, I'm not touching the models.. and the skin graphics. The skinMAPS are another story. 
Hrrm 
I just knocked both 'ogre mutants' down to 256x256. While we lose some texture detail on the weapons, we gain plenty on the monsters, which is a tradeoff I can live with. I fixed a skin problem with the grunt too.

And tested them on my old PC with 64 RAM and a V3 :) hehe 
Ok :) 
I'm going to assume from the lack of suggestions and comments, save for a few, that my notes on the revamp on the revamp page and here have sufficiently answered any questions or addressed any concerns and I'm in good shape. Of course, given Nehahra's initial release in 2000, there have been 5 years worth of comments and talk about Nehahra to go on when considering what to take a look at or change (at least, what things *can* be changed without breaking the .DEMs and affecting the intended gameplay in the 21 maps).

I only wanted to be sure that I lent an objective ear to those in the community who had something to say (so as not to be accused otherwise).

Thanks to those who offered a few cents both here and in the Ob thread re: Nehahra.

Good things in the future.

Cheers. 
New Question For Yas. 
In the Nehahra's "vanilla quake" mode, do you suppose I should shut off increased falling damage? 
 
i see no purpose to have increased falling damage at all, but baring it's removal, i'd say, yeah, take that out for 'vanilla quake' mode. :) 
 
well.. I added the additional (yet not quite realistic) damage based on distance you fall with the thought that if the quake marine jumps off a skyscraper, he ought to get more than a twisted ankle. Maybe skyscraper is an overstatement, but you know what I mean :) 
I Agree, 
if Quake guy falls from SkyScrapers or from high cliffs, he should die. I can't belly flop from a distance of four feet in to a pool with out getting my innards crunched up.

General question, Mindcrime, have you taken a look at the gyro physics mod? Or do you plan to do similar things with water boyancy? I know the original code allowed for entities to float, but the approach in the gyro mod was more systemic.

The Zodiac mod for Deus Ex added an interesting feature to the swimming mode. As the player, you could swim pretty much normaly like in every other game, but if you stood still, you automaticaly rose upward. 
 
I reckon it would be a mistake to change movement physics. A lynch mob might assemble to string me up and beat me like a pinata.

As for floating entities, I'd like to do more with that. The gibs physics have changed. They have these quirky underwater physics which are not realistic, but they are fun. They don't float however. I have a few things that float in Neh already, like if you push an explobox or barrel in the water.

Would it be interesting to apply floating to them or something else? Dunno.

I do know that there is a floating gibs entity in Nehahra that does not work properly that I mean to get to. I reckon I'll be playing with that then (I'm pretty certain how to go about them this time.. once I get to them... they aren't quite high on my list.. used in one place in nehahra...)

As for falling damage.. I think this might depend.. I might have to go through the maps and see if this change adversely affects anything... among the nice things about it.. you might have a very long shaft down to another part of the level (perhaps close to the exit)... might even be visible from where you start, but yet you cannot jump down there and basically skip the level.. you'll surely die.)

There might be instances where it affects the gameplay and the intention of the mapper (I can even think of one in particular in ep4).

I'll have to see how it plays with the proportional falling damage taken out in that mode. 
Ah Yeah 
quite true. it hadn't occured to me that you also were talking of gameplay specific uses for increased falling damage.

make sure it is clear, either via maps or somehow, that falling = bad, because otherwise, you'll have a lot of splattered players... XD

i'm still not a big fan of realistic falling damage though, because there are always other ways to stop players from jumping into areas, via lava/slime, void pits, teleporters. heck, you could even have the player ambushed by tons of monsters and die that way instead. :P

but since whether or not increased falling damage isn't in question, then i'd say you might as well leave it on for both modes, and let mappers use it as a gameplay device. it may be cool to have a worldspawn key to disable it however, incase a mapper wants to make some really crazy vertical level with lots of falling from high up and such.
but that opens up another can of worms because now players will never be able to tell when realistic falling damage is on or not. :P hehe, whee, devil's advocate is fun. o.0 
 
If the player can survive the fall in e1m7 after defeating Cthon, then I think the increased falling damage is fine. 
Game Modes 
You can survive the e1m7 fall, but it's about 75 damage, so a lot of times you won't make it if you took any lavaball hits. Generally not cool to defeat the boss and then die anyway though.

At the moment, I took out the quasi-realistic falling damage in Vanilla Quake mode. Seems to play okay thus far and no harm done to gameplay in the Neh maps.

On the subject of game modes, and "enhanced combat AI", there are two opinionated schools of thought on this matter and really I'm appealing to both this time. Even though I think Nehahra is too easy (granted.. by comparison)... with Vanilla Q mode, it is interesting. And it's nice to be able to choose what kind of gameplay I want based on my mood at the time.

Right now.. and perhaps in the final version.. the modes are set using the NOMONSTERS cvar. It seemed like the best to use for compatibility reasons and ... well ... it's a cvar not commonly used.

+nomonsters 3

would set vanilla q mode, which trumps any mode set globally on a map. Meaning, if a mapper built a map and set it to play on vanilla q mode... if I did want the upped AI and extra monster features, I could simply change the mode to Nehahra mode or classic Nehahra mode (there's only a few notable differences between the two). Also, vice-versa. [[ Although... a mapper can shut off extra features on a case-by-case basis with the "monster_ai" field .. which trumps gamemode.. i.e. an enforcer with "monster_ai" "-2" will always behave like standard Q, regardless of game mode)

Now, for the same reason as I considered mappers using the realistic falling damage as a deterrent, I also consider that there are surely maps in which you do take a huge fall every time (as standard Q of course doesn't have the increased falling damage), so the integrity of that map is hence compromised, as the player will die each time.

For this reason, I am very strongly considering having the game mode set to vanilla Quake automatically for non-nehahra maps (unless trumped by Cvar of course). And checking to see if it's a Nehahra map is really quite as simple as checking for an "info_start" (neh1m*, neh2m*, neh3m*) or an "info_world" (neh4m*).

At first I was gonna leave it. Maps with no info_start would default to the new Nehahra mode. There are a lot of players who prefer playing "old" quake maps, or non-nehahra maps, with the extra monster features. This is why I was going to leave it.

However, I see no reason why they can't type NOMONSTERS 4 at the console, or +nomonsters 4 at the command line, to enable the preferred experience.

The Nehahra enhancements were not the intended gameplay in non-nehahra maps obviously and really.. the mapper's intention, on a map by map basis, is of the highest importance to me.

Maybe some of you will have thoughts on that too :P

On a side note... as I was reading the last posts.. it occurred to me that it might be nice to add a trigger whose only function is to reset the jump_flag of players (which is what is used to measure how big of a fall a player took). So you could have a player fall and not take damage.

Not that you couldn't achieve the same creatively using some other entities... 
Falling Damage 
I think it's best to have falling damage be totally consistant across all gamemodes. 
Hmm 
Is there a consensus on this? 
 
i agree to! 
 
well, like i ended up saying before, either on or off, but falling damage should always be the same. players shouldn't have to 'test' to see if they'll take extra damage or not. they should load up nehahra and know if they'll die from a fall or not.

also this thing of modifying original monsters i've never liked the idea of. i'm all for making cool AI for new ones, but messing with the originals just doesn't seem right. for one thing, we've all learnt what a grunt or enforcer can do. when they start sliding all over the place and going nuts, it's more annoying than fun.

all this stuff about being able to customize the AI to use or not use the new stuff is superfluous imo. just have the original monsters behave as they always have, and have other monsters use the new cool ai. 
Post 71 
you stated: "when they start sliding all over the place and going nuts, it's more annoying than fun."

Which is why I added the game modes. Personal preference. Don't think I haven't heard that before and it's not a majority opinion (I will not say it is a minority opinion however).

If I were to go back in time to 2000, I wouldn't do a lot of things the same admittedly. C'est la vie. I won't elaborate on what would change (that I am not changing already). But I will point out that there are several camps on this issue. There are the in-betweens. But the two main factions are The For and The Against. These camps are quite strong. Google and altavista nehahra some time when you're bored and see what people are saying (then do a few more searches, misspelling it in a variety of ways (: )

There are some who play Quake with Nehahra exclusively and the AI is part of the reason. I wasn't crazy when I took this approach. I read what people were saying, not just inside the community (that's like looking for an atheist in the church choir), but outside ... where Quake was often scoffed for lacking certain things, among them... a real challenge in the SP environment. There are some who are so used to the competitive gameplay of DMing online.. that playing SP is insulting to them. I gathered all those bones and I chewed on them hard. I didn't just wake up with a goofy idea one day to make the game as it was.

If you operate only for the warm fuzzies of only those in the community, and/or those who visit this board, and them exclusively, that's fine, but I don't. I'm not being snippy when I say that. I'm just pointing out where I stand.

I'm at a point of no return on the issue of AI, as after five years, Nehahra has become an institution of sorts. When something becomes an institution, you meddle with it at its peril (or your own). And yes, in a sense, I learned that lesson a bit with Quake itself.
Though I could change everything in Nehahra to exactly how I might have done it this time around, it would be no less ignorant than how I conducted myself in 2000 on this issue. I will not try to appease the previous 'naysayers', gather them in my court so to speak, if it means alienating the fans. Then I am left with the same situation, only with people waving different flags, and that is not the state I want to leave Nehahra in.

Those who don't want the monster behavior changes, you need only go to the console and type a command.. or add a parameter to your BAT file. The idea that someone who strongly prefers vanilla Quake mode (and is able to play based on this preference) would be bothered that are people playing the game a different way because they *like it* that way, or vice-versa for that matter, is downright silly. Petty even.

Would it bother you to know that when I play maps in Fitzquake now, I set GL_OVERBRIGHTS to 0? More importantly, *should* it bother you?

This time I am foolish enough to want to please everyone (this is impossible, of course, but I reckon I will come much closer). However you want to play the game, you can play it that way.

I don't choose. The player chooses.

And, for crissake, what is wrong with that?? 
Furthermore. 
What's wrong with a mapper being able to choose how the monsters behave?

I do realize the gamemodes is both a testament and a contradiction to some of my stated philosophies. Namely, the one that concerns altering the gameplay to something other than what the mapper may have intended.

I.e. a mapper sets his map to vanilla q mode, but a player might decide he wants all the extra stuff.. so he NOMONSTERS 4 (the neh4m*+ nehahra game mode).

I know personally... when new maps come out. I play it through Nehahra, using the Neh progs.dat because it enhances my enjoyment as a player. (though those maps that come with their own progs.dats of course.. the Nehahra engine will use that progs... and it doesn't bother me either, even though I sometimes wish I had the choice).

(On a side note, though I think I've mentioned it, setting the "monster_ai" field on monsters individually trumps both the map's gamemode and the cvar, case by case basis though.)

Anyway, I've stated openly what I'm doing in the AI department and I will stay the path, as it is the only responsible course of action to take. 
Now... 
Would you care to comment on my comment about falling damage? 
 
i think maybe i'm just not thinking of Nehahra the same way you are, which is what's causing the problem.

when i think of mods for quake, i think of them as essentially extending the original game, which is why i'm mostly opposed to modifying anything that was already there, regarding AI for monsters.

I don't choose. The player chooses.

yes giving players a choice is nice, but frankly i think that's superfluous and can, in some cases, destroy a map's gameplay. a monster should be of constant difficulty in each skill setting. this is akin to having a standardized skybox key in the worldspawn, so that whatever engine is used, whatever player who plays the map experiences the same thing.

Would it bother you to know that when I play maps in Fitzquake now, I set GL_OVERBRIGHTS to 0? More importantly, *should* it bother you?
no, because it affects the gameplay in absolutely no way at all. it is simply a visual preference, which doesn't change the way a map plays (unless you had some sort of reliance on fullbrights for gameplay, but if you did something *that* non-standard, you would expect for it to not work for some)

turning off the advanced AI often makes maps too easy, and turning it on, while making it of proper difficulty, is changing established quake monsters.

if monster AI was tied into skill levels, it would make more sense, but i'd still be opposed to the modification of original monster behaviour.

nehahra is more about making a new experience and a new feel. this attempt to please everyone is simply resulting in an game that will be unpredictable (bad from a mapper's and gameplay standpoint).
i think if your original intention was to make a new feel for the game, that you should just go ahead and do it. enable advanced AI on all monsters and FORCE IT. some people may not like it, but then at least they are playing the game the way it's meant to be played.



aside (which i think applies to ANY game or mod):

What's wrong with a mapper being able to choose how the monsters behave?
because then you end up with Unreal type gameplay, where you'll be fighting monsters, and then all of a sudden, the same monster, who looks identical to the others of his type suddenly starts whooping your ass with no way of knowing it would. this is similar to an instant death trap, but, obviously, less brutal. there is no logical reason for one monster to behave different from another monster that is of the same type and it's tricking the player by not giving any visual or audible cues.
the player should always be able to learn from his experiences in the game, and not always be caught flat footed.

anyway, if any of this sounded evile or mean or whatnot, keep in mind it was all said in good faith. :) 
Bleh 
I've been punchy lately, sue me.

Firstly, falling damage: It'll be consistent. I wanted input on that to ensure I wasn't being stubborn.

Necros said: yes giving players a choice is nice, but frankly i think that's superfluous and can, in some cases, destroy a map's gameplay. a monster should be of constant difficulty in each skill setting. this is akin to having a standardized skybox key in the worldspawn, so that whatever engine is used, whatever player who plays the map experiences the same thing.

My response: You would then have to argue that playing on GODMODE also destroys a map's gameplay, and the player can do this at their whim. They can NOCLIP. They can attain all weapons with an Impulse. By the same logic, if I were to subscribe to your thinking, I should then disable all cheats. Right? :)

As for monsters of the same class acting differently. I was talking more about shutting off features than enabling them. I.e. you put a monster somewhere precarious and you don't want him to jump, so you set him not to.

Necros said: if monster AI was tied into skill levels, it would make more sense, but i'd still be opposed to the modification of original monster behaviour.

That's how I originally wanted to do it, but the skill CVAR is not my friend. But that's just the point. The modes are akin to changing the skill setting. You don't require as much skill to play Quake in its native form as you do Nehahra. Playing Nehahra without the monster behavior extras (or at least the combat stuff) is still pretty challenging on its own though. If I really felt (or if in the future feel) that the difference between those two modes is too substantial, I would proceed accordingly. But I don't think they will be.

Anything that broadens the enjoyment of a game I cannot see as a bad thing.

Modification of the original monster behavior: I've already stated my position on that in my long previous post. Stop kicking that dead horse! :) (See the bit about "institutions")

In the end, I truly believe this just translates into more people enjoying Nehahra. A dish served however you want it. And the players who couldn't handle the monsters as well as some others, well, they're less likely to get frustrated and cheat their way through (Fatty, ahem :>). I'd rather they play it.. and I suspect they would rather play it too. 
Falling Damage And Other Stuff 
I think I may still allow a custom mapper (probably through a field in the info_world) to disable falling damage.

My hang-up on this has more to do with encouraging mappers who are more interested in utilizing some of the great features of Nehahra (ambient sounds, level objects, and triggers and funcs, many of which no other mod has) but may wish for the monsters to remain as they were. Basically, the equivalent of a custom progs with the quake monsters the same but with all the added mapping features.) Mappers who want the map to strictly play, like the original Quake.. (and that may mean putting a clamp on 'realistic' falling damage)

That swings the door open wider.

The all-engine version I propose.. swings it wider still.

I want to leave the community more than something they can play, but something they can use.

Call me a sentimental fool. 
To Summarize What I Just Said On IRC 
My ultimate preference is that falling damage is always the same as in normal Quake. However, if you retain "realistic" falling damage, I won't whine much as long as it's consistant between all gamemodes. 
You Know... 
That might just be the best solution, all things considered.

Just take the damned 'realistic' falling damage out and it becomes a non-issue. heh. 
Blegh 
I'll be away from the func_msgboard for some days, maybe a week. I'm going to dump the evil butts again. This time, come hell or high water, for good. I'm in a position where this is the *only* sane time to do it. I've been flirting with it for the past week though (hence my glorious moods for those who have been around me.. heh)

But it's best I stay away from msgboards :) The withdrawal makes me irrational and temperamental (even more than usual ;) )

I'll come back and address any postings, answer questions, or whatever.. when my head is on straight (at least as straight as it gets).

Cheers. :> <insert bear growl> 
... 
My response: You would then have to argue that playing on GODMODE also destroys a map's gameplay, and the player can do this at their whim. They can NOCLIP. They can attain all weapons with an Impulse. By the same logic, if I were to subscribe to your thinking, I should then disable all cheats. Right? :)

that doesn't make sense. i wasn't aware the monster ai mode was considered a cheat since you suggest prople to set it to their preference. it's not like you tell people "well, you can play my map with godmode if you want"

godmode, noclip etc are all debug features for making maps which just happen to be useful when you want to just blast through a map. monster ai isn't a debug feature, it is designed entirely for the player.

your attempt to draw a parallel failed.

As for monsters of the same class acting differently. I was talking more about shutting off features than enabling them. I.e. you put a monster somewhere precarious and you don't want him to jump, so you set him not to.

i see now more what you were saying about having mapper controlled AI. not something that overly controls the behaviour but to disable specific things like jumping, which is a pretty good idea. 
MindCrime, 
I don't choose. The player chooses.

And, for crissake, what is wrong with that??


I think there is an assumption here that the player knows in advance what he wants when it is more likely the case he finds out what he 'wants' after the fact of playing a decent or great level.

If you are out to please the player, you will most likely make him more picky, spoiled and eventually miserable if you give him everything that he wants.

No. The player needs to be grabbed by his collar, bounced off the floor a few times and then dragged down the hall to greet the vision you have for him by yanking his head up by the hair, and yelling, "There!".

Inside of every player is a masochist, inside of every mapper is a sadist, and most often they cohabitate in the same specimen --

Thus Spoke Zarathustra 
Inside Of Every Mapper Is A Sadist 
yeah it is 
-- 
Ok the quit didn't last long this time either :p (oh, the horror of the cycles!)

Necros: I made the comparison to the CHEATS, because the cheats are ... oh, actually fugger. Let's not keep going back and forth :o It's making me dizzy.

The modes are in and there will be more Nehahra maps in the future because of it (yes, I was thinking just as hard about mappers as I was players with this). Not to mention, a number of players who couldn't get past the first 2 maps because it was too much for their skills ... playing again and deriving some enjoyment out of it... while a bunch of others (myself included) blast through it in the normal, more challenging game mode that we are more accustomed to now.

It doesn't mean I'm going to condone vanilla quake mode though :) But it's already in there for the mappers who want to use the Nehahra entities... and it wasn't a secret I was going to keep from the player.

I do think of it as merely a change in skill settings. A play who found Nehahra impossible before.. will probably now just find it hard.

More players. More mappers. That's my angle.

Perhaps it is best that you just wait and see when it comes to that. As we've been discussing (arguing?) the theoretical instead of the tangible.

Nehahra isn't out. Only when that happens and everyone's sank their teeth into it, will any of us know for sure who was right or wrong or what was a good or bad idea.

I really feel I'm doing the best thing in this regard however. I've had five years to think about it.

Truce, necros. 
 
Perhaps it is best that you just wait and see when it comes to that. As we've been discussing (arguing?) the theoretical instead of the tangible. then what is the point of this thread? o.0 i thought we were here to discuss things about neh such as gameplay implementation before they get finalised and become tangible, thus, unchangeable...

Truce, necros. hehe, i didn't know we were shooting! :D
i'm not using enough smileys, i think! ^_^ 
Keep Trying Mindcrime... 
... you'll beat them in the end I'm sure. 
No-one's Being Beaten 
except the poor dead horse. Give it a rest. 
 
hey mind did glassman and skynet respond? 
Flame Bait 
Trinca: I guess Skynet didn't finish, but someone said they might get ahold of the work he started.

Kell: That horse has been pounded to dust at this point.

Necros: I have looked at the entirety of this thread and every posting by you and I have discovered that every post you make has one thing in common.

It is you being contrary.

I believe it is you being contrary for the sake of being contrary. I do not think there is one aspect of Nehahra that you have *not* attacked under the thin disguise of feedback for reasons known only to yourself. You only make concessions in sips so as to project the illusion of being even-handed. Nehahra's too popular and hence must be attacked? I'm a threat to you in some way? Nehahra is? So what's your angle? No, nevermind. Let's not go back and forth and again. :)

Let's just solve this right now and get it out of the way so we can all move on.

Okay?

Ready?

Here it comes:

My penis is bigger than yours.

-

Don't we all feel better now? 
 
I forgot to append a smiley: 
Wtf 
o.0 
O_o 
:D 
^_^ 
It was a tension breaker.

Falling damage: My final word on it. The normal Quake falling damage will be restored. The 'realistic' falling damage goes bye-bye. :> 
Actually... 
Fugger. I will not say anything in absolutes and commit to anything. Tides of War has a lot of heights involved.

In the end, we'll see if it stays or goes. But I thank all who gave input on it. 
Skynet 
He has said a while back that i could have the old map files, since he didn't want to work on them anymore. I think that was three years ago.
I didn't take him up on the offer, although now i have no idea why i didn't.

I emailed him back recently to see if i could get a hold of them, but he's hasn't replied back yet. I think there was a long wait the first time as well, so i'm not concerned or anything. 
Ahem... 
... I was talking about the cigarettes! 
 
donnie you're out of your element! 
 
I was talking about the cigarettes!

Ah I see. Yeah, they're harder to beat than any dead horse :( 
Cigarettes 
Guhhhhh...

Sometimes I wonder. After you've quit and relapsed so many times, reinforcing the habit somewhere in the idiot primal brain, you are often left clueless how to approach it. It's a clever monster you can seldom trick the same way twice. It rewires. It remembers. It schemes. It's evile. :| 
Mindcrime 
"Quitting smoking is the easiest thing in the world, I've done it dozens of times..."

I am 22 now, smoking since the age of 13 :( 
Oof 
You know.. the best advice anyone ever gave me on that was the simplest... it was in fact the same advice I give to people who say they want to write but aren't sure how to approach it.

The only way to do it, is to do it.

But it's so easier said than done, isn't it? Heh. I'm an admittedly unstable guy when I'm smoking. You can guess what I'm like when I'm not.

People around me generally don't want to be in the same time zone. On a day by day basis, people who know me can gauge by my level of crabbiness and 'sensitivity' whether I've been flirting with quitting again.

I'll tell you that I've quit for days, weeks, and once last year.. for two months. :|

I have a lot of experience at quitting...

yet it seems I'm no good at it. HEH. 
Ddd 
less talk about smoking and more action! 
Falling Damage 
I think I saw a Shambler get killed by lava in Nehahra. I take it all the monsters took environmental damage, except drowning damage. Is this correct?

Did they take appropriate falling damage ;) 
Another Question 
When you shoot at other players in Quake, they can get knocked in the air + such.

It'd be cool to see monsters have to suffer the same ;) Plus realistic falling damage.

Shoot a Hell Knight with a rocket, he falls off the cliff, and it's a big fall and dies.

I liked the idea of realistic falling damage in Nehahra. But playing it, taking a big fall on accident pretty much meant loading a Save Game because health and ammo boxes weren't common enough to rebound from that.

I think realistic falling damage would be readily accepted if the only person subject to it wasn't just the player.

Haha. It would sure be great for fiends and hell knights to get knocked around by splash damage and get realistic falling damage too ;) 
Hiatus 
As mentioned on the Neh page, I'm going to M.I.A. for a while. I'm making a big move across the country (not that I want to, *ahem*). I'll be out of contact during the transition and not sure what the internet situation will be once I get there (i.e. how soon I'll have it). So if you email me and I don't get back to you any time this century, you know why.

At any rate, I'll be gone for a little while, but the only hiatus is on my side (in theory :>)... the map side will continue on as time permits. Unless I am eaten by a Florida alligator, Nehahra is still very much on.

This was one particular curveball of life I didn't expect. C'est la vie.

Till then: happy fragging and check out Quoth and Kell's and Necros's separate releases for it if you haven't already. Good stuff.

Cheers. 
 
have a nice trip and return safe to the comunity :)

cheers

Trinca 
Watch Those Hurricanes 
 
Input Desired! 
For those of you who don't know... yes, I've been back. And I have yet to be eaten by an alligator...

I'm inviting any interested parties to offer their input on a particularly knotty decision. This concerns not the game, but the demos.. The Seal of Nehahra, and the other .dem packages.

A Yay or Nay would be appreciated on what I'm contemplating doing, which follows:

A) SEAL OF NEHAHRA

I can't begin to tell you how many headaches the whole pak0.pak/pak0.zip matter has caused from the beginning. I thought it had been a simple thing. If you have the game and you're installing the movie afterwards.. you must unzip the pak0.zip file from the movie and overwrite the dummy/empty pak0.pak file with the game. Unfortunately, this has been a complicated thing for some people (probably because they are adverse to reading READMEs and webpages...)

My new plan is for the re-release of Seal of Nehahra to occupy its own separate directory. quake/the_seal... Run from the Nehahra engine or whatever other engine. So in order to watch Seal of Nehahra.. you'd do the following:

engine.exe -game the_seal

(engine.exe being nehahra.exe, nehexe.exe, nehquake.exe, darkplaces.exe, dpnehahra.exe, whatever)...

Giving the movie its own directory seems to be tidy. Bengt brought up the problem that if you tried to play the Nehahra game from the_seal directory.. it would prioritize the game data from the_seal instead of what's in the nehahra directory. But I could easily make sure the game uses different file names and/or Seal of Nehahra has all up to date models.

Though I could just as easily include a dummy progs.dat that does nothing.. and you'd have to exit and load nehahra normally to play nehahra.

B) MINI-MOVIES

As many of you know, there were 3 long demos between nehstart and neh1m1 before. A fair portion of data came with the game to be used by it (which makes the anti-cutscene crowd cranky as they have to download extra Mb for cutscenes that they aren't going to watch).

However, I've been wanting to compartmentalize this too.

What I would like to do is have another directory, which will contain a progs.dat quakec based menu for loading demos (as was common for Quake movies of the past). Don't know the directory name yet.

But this way.. the die-hards who want the long version still can still have the Seal of Nehahra-esque scenes.

In this directory, will be where Nehahra-related mini-movies are installed.. (or I could make each 'vignette' its own separate folder, own entity, but perhaps not eh?)

This regards THE FALL OF FORGE (the 3 demos in the original game preceding neh1m1)... A shorter mini-movie that takes place between Episode 2 and 3 chronologically)... and of course... the new movie that presents the story for Episode 4.. (we'll get to that in a minute)


C) If we go with B...

I will still do some teeny to-the-point cutscenes to be included with the game (where those 3 big dems went, between ep2 and ep3, and ep4 and ep4)... 30 secs a piece tops.. very to the point stuff. So a player who doesn't watch the scenes knows what the mission/objective/situation is.

However I will keep the between level demos of course in Episode 1 and Episode 2...

The finale mini-movie(s) will come with the game only, of course.

D) There will be a semi-substantial movie release with the full nehahra (episode 4). Which is part of the reason why the desire to compartmentalize was augmented...

If we do go with separating the 'machinima' from the game...

Then I intend to release the new Quake/Nehahra movie prior to the full release...

(sounds familiar doesn't it? It's like the Seal of Nehahra all over again... except.. ahem.. this one won't be 4 hours...)

[[jesus christ.. we can hope it won't be 4 hours...]]

Okay, any thoughts from those interested in having their say.. is welcome...

The alternative of course is to stay to the original form... and have EVERYTHING in the same directory... and keep the long cutscene sequences in the game. 
Ahem 
Though.. DO keep in mind... cutscenes don't have to be watched. Typing CUTSCENE 0 from the console.. or going to the menu options in the engine.. there is now a toggle for the cutscene cvar in there too for convenience..

Okay.. Let's hear it.

*hears crickets*

:/ 
Scumbags 
I guess nobody has a preference...

Go figure. You're map people, not cutscene people :P 
:) 
I know.. I'm expecting a response in one day on a weekend.

WHAT is wrong with meee???

(I WANT MY INSTANT GRATIFICATION! I WANTITIWANTITIWANTITIWANTIT...)

Blegh... 
INSTANT GRATIFICATION 
I�d say don�t worry about others to download some extra data, we�re talking about Quake�s finest here :) so they should deal with it.

It would be nice though if the install /play of the movie/mod would be easier, I remember it was quite confusing being a n00b and all.(no fiddling with dummy paks please)

Keep up the good work Mindcrime ! 
As I Said On IRC 
Just have a total re-release and don't bother with adding the new content on top of the old .pak files. Just start over. 
 
the major thing i�m especting in this re-release! is the episodes all glue :)i pray for that!!! :) 
 
matte 
&#1090;&#1072;&#1082;, &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1079;&#1072; &#1093; 
I say there were not enough cutscenes and not enough story in neh

but why so much effort on the old
everyone wants NEW 
Not Enough Story 
LoL 
My 2 Cents Worth 
to be blatantly honest, i personally have absolutely no interest in cut-scenes whatsoever in any game, ever. 
 
agree with underworldfan is like going to a sex show and dont fuck the girl :) we want blood!!! new monster�s and many wepons to use... :) as nehahra have! 
Most Disturbing Post Ever 
 
. . . 
Ohhhhhh-kay

underworldfan: you're not alone.

Even I don't dig cutscenes any more.

(The fact that I feel stuck with them in Nehahra makes me feel victimized by a former self... heh :| ) 
 
(Why else would I want to separate and compartmentalize?) 
 
well, dont u want any story at all? 
 
story is nice but to much get bored fast...

sorry czg i was very violent :! 
Suggestions 
sorry I haven�t read the whole thread but im a late starter. good examples of extra stuff to add to nehahra would be Lazarus for Q2 which I used for quite a while. one of the more useful features would be the hub system mentioned earlier but also maybe footstep sounds - in Lazarus mad dog did it by associating textures with custom footstep sounds, but I�m no programmer and have no idea if this is possible in Quake I.

anyhoo - the custom_monster EXCELLENT!

>anticipating the next release< 
Forgot 
and the other feature that would be really nice is random entity placement; a trigger is assigned to a series of hint_paths and at level start selects its targets and randomly places them on the hint_paths - semi-randomised monsters (or keys? or custom_items?) for replay! 
Suggestions 
Footsteps: I wrote a footstep code for use with Obscurus, but never for Nehahra. I don't know that anyone would want that as Nehahra attempts to remain Quakey, even despite the new stuff and the AI changes justified by the plot.

There is no means of identifying what texture is on a surface except in select custom engines (I'm assuming someone has done it)

Custom_monster: the downside is it requires a knowledge of the monster MDL in use, the frame numbers for each sequence, the frames certain things happen (like a jump happens or the launch of a missile).

Random Entity Placement: very doable. 
 
randomised monsters - bullshit 
Footsteps: Please No! 
I hate footsteps! They never sound realistic but ridiculous most of the time. 
Random Placement 
I don't see any harm in adding the functionality for it. Though if the randomization is radical and widespread in terms of monsters and ammo, it might be difficult to ensure game balance in every instance. You would certainly have to be careful using it. 
Claro 
teh randomisation thing (when I used it b4) was completely down to the mapper how far you went with it, the more _path�s you had the more random it would be. I would set a single randomisation entity for each grouping of monsters in a single room (with its own specific set of hint_paths) so everytime you replay you know what to expect in each room but not which direction it will come from.

An example would be going into a room one time and a shambler leaping out from behind a pillar on the left but the next time it�s over in the far corner on the right (or wherever else the hint_paths are set).

Course, it�s expecting alot for mappers to do this but it was a cool feature exspecially for playtesting because (what with sometimes 30 different semi-random groupings) it would always be the same level with the same ambushes etc. but just slightly different.

fair enough on the footsteps - just remembering the pretty decent ones in DarkPlaces. 
Yep, Another One 
how about the ability for a killed monster to drop other items as well as the backpack? eg. keys, weapons or custom_items? I know this could have problems with the item falling into lava etc. but this (again) would be the mapper�s problem.

Just remembering an unfinished map I started for Q2 where there was a chapel to the war god, if you collected the head of your fallen enemies (key_commander_head�s) and laid them on the altar then you were rewarded with a quad . . . heheh 
Dropping Items 
Quite simple actually. Crucial items being dropped in an irretrieval place is certainly a concern though. Again, this is another thing the mapper will have to use carefully indeed (especially if acquiring the item is necessary to advance in the map).


Anyway, yes, I could add it painlessly (for the most part). The capability is already there for other things (i.e. func_explodables yielding items). 
Updated Webpage 
I have updated the Nehahra website. Adding Louis Manning's new map pak to the Addons page, a new entry on the news and revamp pages.. and also something special to the Other page (for the curious Seal-of-Nehahra/nehahra-cutscene lovers).

Cheers 
 
hey mindcrime does glassman and skynet reply to u??? :) 
 
No . . . 
 
fuck! at least the could sent the .map files :( 
Argh! 
Try emailing to
glassman <bat> mistral dotty co dotty uk
and
glassman <butt> mistral d'oh net
too. I'm sure some of these is valid since he is hosted on his ISP. 
Dropping Items #2 
Okay, ijed. I enabled thrown/yielded items to monsters..

"items" flags
(DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN = 2
(NAILGUN = 4
(SUPER NAILGUN = 8
(GRENADE LAUNCHER = 16
(ROCKET LAUNCHER = 32
(LIGHTNING = 64
(SPROCKET = 128
(AUTO SHOTGUN = 256
(HEALTH = 65536
(SILVER KEY = 131072
(GOLD KEY = 262144
(BIO SUIT = 2097152
(QUAD DAMAGE = 4194304
(FLYING ARTIFACT = 8388608

You can also use the "armorvalue" field to have the monster drop armor... and the ammunition fields (ammo_shells, ammo_cells, etc) to drop boxes of ammo...

Not that you can do anything with this info at the moment.. but at least you know it'll be in there when Nehahra is re-released ;)

---

I'm not exactly sure how I'll go about the 'random placement' request without making the monster spawn functions a mess...

Might chew on that one for a while... 
Groovy 
>:)

I know it�s standard quake to have the vital gold keycard that unlocks half the base sat on a neon-lit metal plate - but - every time?

We can know have the monster_leaderguy drop the desired_item when killed. cheers!

With the random placement - don�t fret too much as I know you�d have to change or 90% of or completely redo spawning - I know quake1�s limitations in that department (Maelstrom�s main room with big locked gate - on getting the silver key the crucified zombies were killtargeted and eight normal zombies supposed to be spawned to replace them - dint work despite a 1001 attempts to work around it).

anyhow - I�ll try to think of some more mindwringers for you to puzzle over . . . 
That Didn't Work Because 
crucified zombies are turned into static entities, and thus cannot be removed after map start. 
... 
Although... that will work in the future... as I always thought crucified zombies should be gibbable... 
Cough, Yes It Did 
ahem - it worked as far as removing went. I did a bit of reading beforehand about static entities and yes, crucified�s count as such under all er, counts; but I still managed to remove them from the map with a killtarget - it was the spawning of 4 / 8 new normal that was the problem (even when I staggered the spawns as much as 2 seconds apart and under different trigger_relays)

Mindcrime - why not add an extra functionality (flag) for the crucified zombie? Basicly exactly the same as normal but also crucified - with the same vomit gibs ability as the vomitus. Kill em (non-gib) and they just hang there for a bit before reviving and starting to gob bile at you again.

BTW I liked the way temporarily dead zombies (and corpses for that matter) weren�t invincible in operation urth magik, but that�d probably be changing the fundamental game too much.

ah well, I�m workin on something at the moment so maybe I�ll post to the betas forum once I�ve got somethin concrete (ie. at least 1 map finishable) 
 
I didn't know OUM did that...

But that was the other thing I'm going to be doing with zombies too...

(in fact.. i think that part is mostly done already) 
Ijed 
If you are into QuakeC it only takes 4 lines of code to the zombie's qc(and I'm no coder of significance so the real coders would probably say "I'll do it in one!")

Let me know if you want the details. 
One Liner 
Funny really, I've just realised that you do only need one line of code. But four lines is more structured. Ho hum. 
No QuakeC Code Reqired 
You can do it from the Editor but the monster count is wrong. 
Mike 
I�m about to start messing with quakeC for some other stuff so maybe I�ll ask later for the zombie code (or how to do it etc.)

Also got an idea for a "construct" creature made out of multiple zombies . . .

I�m not 100% sure on gibbable corpse in OUM - I haven�t played it in quite a while but I seem to remember the evil deadisms with the chainsaw 
Mike 
ah go on then, can you send me your code for the zombies please - I�m doing a few different things at once but sod it, may as well learn now. My mail is louismanningatgmaildotcom

cheers. 
AguirRe ... 
I'm getting your emails, but my replies are getting kicked back. Delivery failures... 
Argh 
I've sent you an alternate address, please try that instead (don't reply to the email). 
It's Been A While. 
I thought this was as good of a place as any to mention that I'm still alive and -- for those interested -- that the work on the Nehahra rerelease with a new episode isn't dead. Technically. I've been left to do quite a bit that I don't normally, such as item/monster placement, and this has slowed me down considerably when I actually have the time to devote to it. No matter what, I'll be releasing *something* to the community, because I don't see the point of hanging onto all this work for too much longer. I don't expect that I will be opening a new website for Nehahra, so when the time comes, I may release it quietly on a free service such as the internet archive or anyone interested in hosting the files, you're more than welcome. This won't happen too soon, but I'm not going to let this drag out another full year from this date. I will use this thread or create a new Nehahra thread for news on that when I have it.

In other news, I've kept my real identity separate from Mindcrime/JTS for a long while, but I've since spilled the beans about my connection to it, on my blog:

http://jackkincaid9.wordpress.com

Given upcoming projects, such as a SF audio drama series under the production company name SLIPGATE NINE ENTERTAINMENT, the secret would be impossible to keep, not that it's any weighty secret. I just preferred to keep things compartmentalized.

You can find my present website at http://www.jack-kincaid.com but there's nothing Quake related there, obviously. My mindcrime|planetquake.com email is still functional, though you could also use mister.mindcrime{AT}yahoo.com

It's good to see that there is still a Quake community of sorts remaining.

That's all for the moment.

Cheers. 
Good To See This Update 
Though I think Nehahra is good enough as it is, it's even better to know there might be a new episode waiting to be played in (hopefully) near future. 
Cool 
Now, if only Glassman came back from the dead too, or at least released the sources of his WIP Nehahra episode... 
Need... 
...more pics of Scampie's kitten. 
:) 
Glad you still alive and still kicking!!!

Big hug mindy 
 
Thanks. 
Same 
Looking forward to the future release, and it seems you've overcome something by merging personalities, so to speak.

Good to hear from you again. 
Overcoming Something 
I would like to think I am. Time will tell the tale. If nothing else, it should make things more interesting. 
Well, Good 
Also, I just (today) stole your idea for conversing monsters. It's pretty funny :) 
Conversing Monsters 
That's fun stuff. Wish I could have done more with that. 
Well 
I thought of making a whole conversation system, but realised that no player would even realise what was going on unless they were notargetting and there was animation going on.

In the interests of finishing before the next millenium I made it just an extended form of idle sound system. 
Lol 
"Did you hear a sound"
"No, must have been nothing..."
still cheers to all the extra features you're puttin in ijed your project will probably be the best Quake addon ever. Awesome to see you're still around Mindcrime, can't wait to see what you cook up. Nehahra the movie is still one of the most amazing thnigs I've ever seen or heard of. Creative talent through the roof. 
Hang On 
there's more nehahra coming? who made the maps? 
Ahem: 
"Agragagah?"
"Muh, Bradagrugrah..." 
 
Weren't there some unreleased balmaps too? 
 
The maps were made by Bal. They're sprawling masterpieces. I'm in love with them. Item and monster placement takes that much more time because they're so massive. My schedule clears up a little bit in late March and I look forward to getting back to it.

The other thing which slowed me down was moving to Windows 7 (sans XP mode) which made a number of my utils stop working, so I've had to do some jerry-rigging and tinker around with DOS boxes (for compiling code), & etc.

Murphy's Law prevails. 
 
then Glassman work still�s lost in the void? 
 
ijed: which is why you would want a delay or a "relations" system like Nehahra where the monster doesn't get upset at the player (unless triggered), so you can time it to preference.

Re: Glassman's work-- As far as I know, if I remember right, he lost all the work on that.

Tronyn: Glad you liked the movie. I know you weren't thrilled about a lot of the AI in the game, but you may reevaluate that once the final version is released. My tastes are a little different now. 
 
are there any plans to revamp any of the existing maps?

a few spoilt the flow for me. neh1m7 was too bright & simplistic, neh2m1 was too small/cramped and too out-of-theme with its stock textures, then nehend seemed too plain considering its significance and how much time you spent in it. i'd also have preferred a softer introduction in forge city but that topic has doubtless been covered plenty of times before!

i love the cutscenes though. they add so much. can't wait to see more of them... i have seen the movie close to 10 times now and have spent many an hour daydreaming what it could be like as an actual movie with real actors etc.. it was, imho, the first thing to give quake a proper universe of its own with a story and setting, rather than being an abstract and disparate conglomeration of worlds & dimensions. thus i feel it *IS* quake in many ways, rather than being a mere addon to it.

but yeah, can't wait to see new levels, new cutscenes & toned-down AI :) 
We've Got 
Nuetral and NPC creatures alongside custom monster / NPC's - which was one of the features you were tackling in the update if memory serves.

Actually using such at the moment hasn't been done, we've yet to use the potential of our code completely yet since we get bogged down with details.

But something like morphing one of the PC's into an enemy or non-corporeal form and see all the behaviours going on, or just using cutscenes, is a possibility.

We stole a lot of your ideas :) 
Yeah 
my main issues with Nehahra were the inconsistent level design and the AI/new combat style. I guess I am kinda conservative with regard to Quake gameplay (it did take me until 2008 to start using skyboxes lol), I'm more open to new things now, in fact I think the game really needs it, but back in 2000 it seemed like too much too fast. On the other hand the overall storyline, and the features and content, were awesome. Definitely some wow moments in every category of Quake experience.

psst I have been bugging Glassman lately for his sources - I doubt it will come to anything but the possibility is apparently not 0% - I say this only because the subject's already been brought up. 
 
Let's spam his email, snail mail, and phone lines with threatening messages until he releases the hostages! 
 
rj: There have been a few changes in existing maps, but no revamping done of the architecture or lighting. Level design is certainly not my department. The only place in Nehahra where I feel personally responsible for how level design happened has to do with the simplistic style of the beginning maps. I suggested to Elek an architectural transition (simplistic to more complex) from the regular Quake maps to the newer maps. There was a philosophy behind it, but now in retrospect, errm, it may not have had the intended effect. Not that I don't like the maps, as I do!, but I don't think I would have made the same suggestions.

tronyn: I'm glad you're more into it now, naturally. And I thought the Glassman sources were history? Interesting. 
 
ijed: Steal away. That will pretty much go for all the new code and ideas in Nehahra Final too. 
 
the main issue in here is that the project still alive!!!

thanks GOD!

:)

my mapping is still alive!

slow but alive! 
Seeing As You're About... 
What was your solution for the AI following the player?

I remember the F corridor description in the dev doc - the shambler ignoring the first branch because the player used the far one. But it didn't explain how exactly.

We've been thinking of the player leaving a trail of 'smell' behind them - dropping a finite number of entities basically, the oldest getting removed first. 
...which 
the monsters can follow that is, with some having a longer smell range than others. 
Never .... 
... mapped for neharah. Should try it one of these days. 
 
JPL if you make .qrk file sent me please! 
Via 
telnet 194.65.24.228:6969 
 
Email :) 
 
ijed: If I'm not mistaken, the monster records the vector location of its client enemy about every frame *if* the client is visible. If the client is not visible, it will try an alternate move routine to seek out that vector (the last place the monster saw the client)... before it defaults to the standard movetogoal hunting. 
Thanks 
That sounds cheaper, depending on how many players there are. 
 
I suggested to Elek an architectural transition (simplistic to more complex) from the regular Quake maps to the newer maps. There was a philosophy behind it, but now in retrospect, errm, it may not have had the intended effect.

i would actually have made that same suggestion. the first two maps were a pretty ideal introduction stylewise; perhaps 3 could have been a little more impressive to bridge the gulf a little more, but starting off small & basic before progressing upwards is always a good technique. it was only the tough gameplay i had issues with; it's always been my view that introduction maps should generally have relatively low-key easy gameplay, letting the player soak up the atmosphere and get a general feel for the game before laying the smack down later on 8) 
Ijed 
We've been thinking of the player leaving a trail of 'smell' behind them - dropping a finite number of entities basically, the oldest getting removed first.

That seems like a good system. It breaks when the player does something the monster can't (like drop off a ledge, or walk over a gap in the floor) but even then the monster will be no more broken than he currently is. Except it the player circles around, the current AI would start moving towards the player while this new AI would continue to try to get to this old breadcrumb... but then, if you limit the number of crumbs they will eventually de-spawn and the monster will start seeking either A. the player or B. the more recent breadcrumbs, which are closer to the player. 
That's The Idea 
Yeah. How many breadcrumbs and the frequency of drop (time or distance?) will have to be experimented with.

My coding's not so great though (too inefficient and takes me ages to write) so it'll take some time to get in - if it seems a good idea to the real coders on the team that is. 
Also 
Vertical movement -/+ 256 units could actually break the trail - removing previous entities left behind... 
Wait A Minute 
Or mark it as leapable... 
 
another cool thing you could do with the breadcrumb idea is if you wanted to make more "realistic" monsters, the breadcrumb idea could be used to make a monster seek to the last place it saw its enemy, rather than magically seeing the current enemy position through walls. 
Well That's 
The Nehahra method Mindcrime mentioned above. Using multiple points for that'd probably be too much since the monster has already seen the position.

I was wondering about disabling a monster's AI if it can see its target but not attack it. It would then follow smell - hopefully leading it on whatever route the player took to get where they are.

So around the corner, up the stairs and then AbleToAttack = true so return to Quake AI. 
Question 
how much of all this will actually be noticeable to the player? Because if its not, does it really matter? 
It'll Be Subtle 
But, imagine you've just ran away from a fiend, riding up a lift and going around two corners - but it finds you anyway.

Or how many times have you had a pack of knights underneith you, roaming back and forth and making angry noises? 
 
Call me old-fashioned, but I like that kind of predictability and dumbness of monsters. Works well with Quake's arcade-ish gameplay. 
 
"how much of all this will actually be noticeable to the player? Because if its not, does it really matter?"

That's the thing with AI. In a game like Quake where monsters die in seconds, it's hard to make anything look intelligent.

"But, imagine you've just ran away from a fiend, riding up a lift and going around two corners - but it finds you anyway. "

In theory, neat. In reality, how many times do you run away from monsters? :) 
Yeah In Maps 
where I would run away is because of low health/ammo and it would usually be backtracking rather than seeking alternative route forward (unless I have to).

I guess if monsters can track me as I backtrack looking for health/ammo, thats kind of neat but they do that already to an extent. A lift is one scenario where they wouldnt I guess but most the time they follow you somewhat. 
All Depends On The Gameplay Setup 
How about a map where you're unarmed?

Part of what we're doing is making the game robust enough to deal with most of what the mapper can throw at it.

The reason not to do the above with some sort of node or dynamic path system (without ruling those out) is for ease of use on the mapper and backwards compatibility.

The ideal from this point of view is to replay the original maps and be surprised by playing them - the monsters reacting less like robots. 
Thread Hijack +1 
 
I Think Its A Brilliant Idea!!! 
No more "trapping" monsters behind walls :)

I can think of numerous situations where this enhancement would make the game more challenging.

Like the Shambler in Starkmon in the lower area. Easy to kill that one by dodging behind the wall and just hammering him with the SSG. This new idea he would be able to walk round the corner and attack the player! 
I Also Think That There Would Be Situations Where 
low level enemies could benefit from this. Say if the player has low ammo or health, one grunt could prove to be quite scary of following the player around the map. 
 
Well, again, I think it sounds great on paper but won't work in real gameplay. But go ahead, it'll be fun to code at least. 
Come Off It Willem 
When's the last time you thought in a modern game 'Why are the monsters following me so well, they don't need to!' 
 
I can't remember the last time I thought a monster had really great path finding. Generally things either go down quickly or they hunker down behind cover and I need to flush them out.

Maybe it's my play style ... I tend to kill things rather than try to get past them and have them follow me. 
Sure 
And Quake's minions do go down quickly, but its leaving the options open for more open play styles.

Example:
Having an empty map with only a Shambler in it and an unarmed player. Since even allowing an axe would let some players (Sielwolf) break the progression. They have to run around the level escaping until the 1/3 point at which they find a weapon and a load more monsters spawn in.

Even if that setup or similar never happens (I'm planning on something like that for e3m7rq) the benefits of improved AI will still be seen in the rest of the levels that don't exploit the feature.

AI in modern games tends to be cut down (fuzzy completion date, lots of debugging needed) although still better on the whole than what Quake has. The luxury we have in RMQ is that we can spend the time on these kinds of details. 
 
"The luxury we have in RMQ is that we can spend the time on these kinds of details."

Eh, what you call luxury others might call a lack of focus. :) Not starting a fight, just saying - different goals, different methods. 
It's True 
But all depends on the design goals ;) 
Good Point Though 
Explanation of thought process is a weakness in the project.

They who march to a different beat. 
 
well, your example above is pretty specific and would definitely fall under the category of gimmick map (this isn't a bad thing, even though 'gimmick' has negative connotations, the idea sounds pretty cool). what i'm saying though is that something like that should just be scripted up in a simpler way instead of building a 'robust' system for only 1 or 2 maps.
it's a waste of resources. 
Just Deleted A Long Rambling Post. 
Gimmick is just a label. There are no bad ideas, only ideas badly done.

A robust sytem will work under a specific idea that I thought of when putting it together in my head, but it'll definately work for others.

Scripting doesn't exist in Quake, so I'd like to remove such a need.

I understand where the objections are coming from, but would like to remove the need for them to be made in the first place.

We're adding flexibility and adaptivity to the game. The only valid objection might be 'but you spoiled it!' which is pretty much invalid ... por hecho. By existing?

Those who don't like what we're doing can play the original game. Those who wanted something else from a remake project can do their own one.

<shrug> 
 
You can obviously work on whatever you like, no objections there. I just take issue with your defense of spending time on something that nobody except you will ever notice because it takes time away from other things.

In a hobbyist environment, that's fine I suppose, since you don't have to ever ship really. You can work on it indefinitely.

I just find it hard to think that way anymore after 10+ years of making retail games. I can't reconcile spending time on a feature/content that nobody will notice. 
 
Oh, and this:

"There are no bad ideas, only ideas badly done."

Is flat out wrong. Please. :) 
 
Yeah I agree. There are most definitely bad ideas.

"Hey let's play Russian roulette!" is not an idea done badly, it's just a bad idea. 
Where To Download ? 
PlanetQuake Neharah page is dead: where can I get Neharah pack and tutorial for mapping ? 
Quaddicted 
I disagree that nobody will notice the AI enhancement discussed - monsters that don't wander in circles underneath you but instead navigate to your position, or can follow you across a map is a noticeable feature.

Ok, bad ideas do exist. 
 
@JPL: The Nehahra pack should still be downloadable from Quaddicted (http://www.quaddicted.com/). 
 
"I disagree that nobody will notice the AI enhancement discussed - monsters that don't wander in circles underneath you but instead navigate to your position, or can follow you across a map is a noticeable feature. "

Not to belabor this too much longer, but the point is that you'll never be watching that unless you're out of ammo and the monster is in your way. Otherwise, the monster would be dead. 
I Agree To Disagree 
 
Willem, Not Everyone Plays Quake Exactly The Way You Do. 
 
 
Oh come on. You know anyone who tries to trick monsters and have them hunt you instead of just blasting them? I have serious doubts. 
 
Well IF monsters behave differently then so does the player - the reason you play the way you do is because of the current monster behavior, but if that were suddenly to change in drastic ways then I would imagine the player would adapt his/her play style to the new monster behavior as well. If monsters are likely to seek me out now, perhaps I can use that to sneak by them (they notice me, so run up the stairs to where I'm at, but then I drop down to the stash of items they were guarding) without a fight. Or lure them into a squishy floor and then push the button. Or whatever other different things you can do with monster behavior. 
 
This discussion is killing my brain. :) You'd have to redesign the entire game for that to happen. You can't just give the monsters this new seeking behavior and then expect that players will suddenly start sneaking around and tricking monsters. Rocket to the face, done. 
Mh 
Thanks ! I'll check Quaddicted !! 
 
That was merely an example (you should know that!) The point being new behavior alters the player's reactions. And yes, new behavior would mean changing the game. 
 
ijed : I think you should do whatever you please. It's up to you how you spend your time, so don't let others dissuade you from your vision. On the other hand, there are a grand many things in Quake coding (i.e. complex navigation routing) which are much easier in theory than in practice. 
Well 
I'm more designing than coding it - on that side I'll be support. Which means I have to be extra certain its not a waste of time.

I tend to be pretty hard-headed about a design I believe in - I've seen too much stuff go to pot because the leadership (or design ideals) weren't there to keep the game design clean. 
 
Know what you're in for is what I'm saying. There's a reason that I concentrated on combat AI rather than navigational. 
Understood 
I learned a lot by looking at what you did with V1. 
 
Earlier today, I was going to say that I won't be including new cutscenes. But then, I stumbled on a 30 minute S-O-N style episode 4 intro I completely forgot that I scripted.
All I need to do is light tweaking and recording the WAVs. I suppose I have no excuse now, do I? 
 
Yes, that was a rhetorical question to no one in particular. 
Monster Behavior 
Speaking of monster behavior, in his DPmod, LordHavoc changed the way teleporter functions so that monsters can be teleported if they stumble on it. For example, in the silver key room of e3m2, if you don't kill the fiend there, some times it will walk through the teleporter and go to the second floor. The first time I saw this happen, I thought this was neat. I still do. Though this has really nothing to do with monster navigation, it does provide something new and unexpected for an old game. 
 
i think a lot of doom2 maps used that feature. 
That Dounds 
like it should be implemented, seems to be a no brainer really. Does it require quakec or can it be done on the engine side? 
 
That already works, I used it in my goatse-ish looking bouncing monster from teleport to teleport speedmap. 
Player Only Teleports 
Monsters being able to use teleporters is the default behaviour in quake, which is why you get those boxes outside the map from which monsters teleport in. The option to make a teleporter player only is available in a spawnflag, so you'd just need to omit that flag. The trick, unless you're writing new navigation AI, is to position the teleporter so that the monsters will navigate into it.

To put this into practice, you could even set up a monster whose patrol route required them to walk through a teleport. You'd probably want to have the player able to observe the whole route without waking the monster and see both ends of the teleporter at once. Maybe that's too much effort to go to for a patrol route though, since people rarely watch them for that long. 
Plan: 
monster_shambler DIMENSIONAL = TRUE 
And Yeah 
Another cutscene would be great.

How much work went into them - 'a lot' yeah, but for say ten minutes of cutscene how long were you scripting, more or less? 
SEAL OF NEHAHRA DIRECTOR'S CUT 
 
 
ijed: I can only speculate how many hours... days... went into it. I imagine it must have taken some time. I moved away from recording demos as I did in 2000 with SON, and moved to scripting in code just about everything, including camera angels, leaving only one or two little things for manual operation. When I enter the map it takes place in and hit a bound impulse, the entire thing plays out from start to finish. I was frankly amazed how much I had finished of it. I only thought I *started* it.

negke: Oh there would be a lot cut... 
 
I meant camera "angles", not "angels", of course.

There are no camera angels in Quake cutscenery 8-X 
 
To put this into practice, you could even set up a monster whose patrol route required them to walk through a teleport. You'd probably want to have the player able to observe the whole route without waking the monster and see both ends of the teleporter at once. Maybe that's too much effort to go to for a patrol route though, since people rarely watch them for that long.

There is a little sequence in one of the QDQ speedrun demos where a lot of monsters walk into teleports. I forget which one it is though. 
Hah 
There are no camera angels in Quake cutscenery 8-X

Only gremlins. 
Gb 
the intro to Quake done 100% Quick lite 2
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=47114 
Speedruns And Teleports 
I also remember a 100% speedrun on e3m3 which used teleporting monsters creatively. Since you don't get any weapon or powerup which lets you kill zombies, the previous records did not count them towards 100% kills.

The new trick actually made the run much slower, but killed them, by luring the otherwise invulnerable zombies through the teleporter, where they would be telefragged by the player who spent the level blocking the plate. It wasn't the most exciting thing to watch, but it certainly was clever. 
Nehahra Addon Maps 
I would appreciate anyone aware of Nehahra addon maps that I may not be aware of to mention them in this thread. I want to be sure with various code changes that I don't break the functionality of anyone's maps for the final version.

As it stands, I've dropped a new cutscene code into Nehahra (pillaging the remnants of Obscurus once again), but I have kept the original in there too (again: so as not to break maps others have made). 
Nehahra Maps I Remember.. 
permutations of the rotten by kona
'in vein' (forget the mapper name.. ian something)

both in here: http://www.quaddicted.com/webarchive/teamshambler.planetquake.gamespy.com/revname2.html 
Ian Bruce 
I'm Sorry, What? 
I had no idea - downloading. 
Also 
does anyone know what ever happened to glassman? 
 
I do have Invein, Permutations, and Maelstrom on my drive. I just wanted to be sure that I had any others (previously released others). 
 
On the note of Episode 4, I know there will be 4 big maps (most of which are populated now). I consider including a fifth "showdown" map, but the end of neh4m4 is probably sufficiently climactic on its own to serve as a good ending. 
That 
Sounds great. 
 
For heaven's sake, how do I disable that annoying monster behaviour again? I tried +nomonsters 1,2,3,4 with no luck. 
Spirit 
nomonsters 1 in my autoexec.cfg file. 
Mine Too,.. 
although truth be told i never noticed much of a difference with it 
Well I Think 
somewhere along the way the nehahra AI was tweaked down anyway so its not as big a difference now then when it was first released (when the AI wasnt tweaked down).

Or I could be totally making that up, cant remember. 
 
Uh, you would notice ice-skating and crosshair-evading fucktart enemies. 
 
I put it into nehahra/autoexec.cfg and they still strafe. 
Well.. 
i first played it only a month or so after release i think, can't remember. it was before the first nomonsters patch anyway and i never noticed the subsequent difference back then 
Spirit 
yeah but I think it should be slower strafing compared to normal. Try putting it to 0 and see if there's a difference. AFAIK, it didnt revert behaviour back to normal quake behaviour. 
Well... 
I don't even remember any more what the switches were for shutting off the AI and so forth in the Nehahra release. Hard to believe that was 10 years ago. I know that in my version you can shut all that stuff off completely, but that doesn't help anyone else much right now.

And, yes, as you may have noticed, I still haven't finished with a final neh release, 4th episode, etcetera. I'm back at the juncture of trying to allocate time and find motivation for it again. It never seems to happen... but I would like to believe that it will.

I think I've contracted the bad habits of a certain Frenchman. :)

Meanwhile, although it's not a Quake release, I did release something else which *might* interest those who were fans of Seal of Nehahra. This is what I'm busy with these days:

http://edictzero.wordpress.com 
Me 
like 
A 4-hour Radioplay? 
 
 
Two hours or radioplay, or audio drama, or whatever label you'd like to give it. But that's just the first two episodes. There will be at least one new one each month. I didn't know that anyone here would be all that interested in that, which is why I used the word "might". What do I know?

This isn't really Quake related. Well, directly. Some components of the story do trace back to it. It had influence. 
 
Just wanted to ask if the nehahra stuff is still being worked on? 
 
In theory, but not in practice. I keep telling myself I'll get back to it, but it never seems to happen. Part of the problem was being a position where I would have to do an awful lot of tasks that I don't normally do, am not comfortable or confident doing, and it became a source of frustration, which is not all that appealing to me. Prior to that, development was so preposterously, ridiculously dragged out that I could not maintain my interest or enthusiasm. Now the idea of finishing it (all myself) feels too overwhelming and there is no enthusiasm to draw on.

So, frankly, I don't know any more.

Not happy with the how the situation turned out. Hope something happens in the future, maybe when I take a break from audio production in May. If history is indicative, nothing will happen, but I'll hope for the best. 
 
Did any new maps get designed for it MC? 
 
Of course. Excellent ones which I was always happy with. Architecture is not the problem area for completion now. It's now entity placement. The task fell on me, alas, and that was never my department, so it's a slow, grueling process which I have little prior experience with. I don't have a lot of confidence in that department (which to my mind is "level design", even if it has nothing to do with architecture.) I did make quite a bit of progress, but it truly is an overwhelming task for me (who is inexperienced) to create the gameplay balance that the levels deserve. I'll do my best, but my best takes time there. I don't have the momentum I do in other departments (i.e. coding) with which I am more familiar and comfortable.

Short answer: Yes. 
Ergo 
Bal go finish your levels. 
Yeah... 
I'm partly to blame for the lack of progress, the maps are mine but I have completely lost the drive to finish them, sorry. =\
Item placement/gameplay etc on single player maps wasn't really ever my thing either to be honest, I get utterly bored with it almost instantly. 
 
So it's all on me now. It has been for a while now and I really did make progress, but what's left feels very daunting to me. I promised myself that the next time I go back into Neh, refamiliarize with the entities and utils and the mess of files (*again*), and work on it, that I would see it through to the end. Thus: my contract with myself--"only go in if you're serious".

I haven't felt serious. :-/ 
Get Some Other Mapper To Do It? 
 
Yeah Surely Someone 
else will help out*

*assumption from non-mapper player who wants more nehahra. 
 
Doing all the monster and item placement doesn't necessarily have to take an age. I hated doing it as well, but a mapper that's used to it might be able to get it all in there in half a day per map. In fact 70% of it is playtesting. It might not be perfect and lack complex fight setups, but at least you'll get some complete maps, and I'm betting they'll look fkn awesome since Bal did them. 
Man Are You All Environment Artists? 
...Surely placing monsters and making the gameplay go is the fun bit?!?! :p

imo it's architecture that's the drag really. Huge rooms that look arse for ages, waiting for compiles etc. 
Heh 
I'm a gameplay guy as well, but there's a bloated monster lurking on a server which demands a daily time sacrifice.

I tend to leave environment to artists now. 
What I Mean Is 
It's a fluke when my levels look good. 
Mindcrime 
How much work is left to do anyway? Only item placement on a few maps (how many exactly)? Is the code base done? Any additional content? 
 
I'd be willing to help - monster placement is what I do fastest. I hope you didn't use Valve 220 map format or anything obscure like that. 
Resist Jonas! 
i'd love to see negke take them on though... 
Agree 
Negke please. That would make me very happy. 
Hehe... 
ZealousQuakeFan, well as it turns out, yes I'm an environment artist (actually character artist now). It's playtesting that killed it for me, I don't really play quake anymore, so can't find the patience to play these maps over and over until the gameplay works (they are fairly long maps too).

There are 2 pretty big maps, 2 smaller ones, also some unfinished ones but does are probably better left aside.

Mindcrime, I don't mind if you want to get help from another mapper, he shouldn't sign anything until he's actually seen the maps though, as we both know by now it's not a trivial task to finish them up. :) 
I Say Unleash 
gb and negke on those. That way there can be some variation in gameplay styles too amongst the 4 maps. 
 
is this the bal3dm5 debacle again? 
Negkhara! 
Yes! 
Yeah 
let neggers do it. 
 
Given that the mapfiles are a mess with a zillion versions (the last couple finalized/sealed by Bengt as a favor, and where are the base files now? I don't know) ... and that all the work I have done doing placement in the maps has been through manually adding them (longhand) and compiling TXQBSP -onlyents... I honestly wouldn't know where to begin involving anyone else. 
 
Note that I'm not against the idea of involving other people (if they're really *that* masochistic to want to become involved), I'm just not sure how that would work given the present clusterfuck.

#277 : Code base is done, although there's a few kinks to work out for the final boss monsters and, well, I kept adding new features .. and more new features ... and more new features ... as I was working on the maps, so not everything (that's new) is perfectly tested.

Of course, to put "new" in context. I mean "new" to me & Bal, recent additions to Neh. There have been hundreds of additions/features added to Neh since the release in 2000, much of which would be fresh, new, maybe even exciting to someone who has only been exposed to the Neh from 10 years ago.

As I said, I'm not against the idea of bringing new people in at all. 
 
negke
noun (plural negkeke, verb to negk)
someone who enjoys crazy ideas, or who derives pleasure from enduring the pain of expressionistic quake mappery or from being forced to do dumb monotone work for others 
 
And if NahkahiiR does play testing one could call it Nehkhara. 
 
A mapper needs a complete .def or .fgd file, the texture wad(s), and the .map files. They also need a working version of the mod to test with.

Next step is to get them to compile reliably.

Once that is sorted out, find several good playtesters (onetruepurple, ijed and negke might fit the job). Their feedback can be condensed into a bullet point list of possible / desirable changes.

For getting stuff back and forth between people (every playtester needs the mod), an SVN repository has proven beneficial. Where you host it depends how big the whole thing is and if it's open source or not. RMQ does this and the team uses things like TortoiseSVN to upload and download stuff.

A team is invaluable. One person who ends up in a clusterfuck is a pretty bad scenario compared to a network of playtesters and contributors. The latter lets you actually finish stuff.

A central repository also acts as a backup and version control system. It's pretty nifty. 
I'd Gladly Host 
an SVN or git repository for this regardless of the size. I'd also playtest. 
 
I'll give this thought and next week, when I have time (between a scriptwriting phase and a production phase, oh and between podcast mastering phases for other projects) I will go through the Nehahra files, try to bring some order to it (mostly by trashing the gazillion junk files cluttering the folders), and oh document *all* the features properly in a devkit txt (rather than scribbled notes on paper.. which I'd done for a time, as I was the only one who needed the info any more...) One way or the other, I would have to do all this anyway for a devkit w/ a release.

The reason I'll give this thought is because it may be that this never will be finished unless there's a group of people on it, and I'm left in the position which I function best (coding, getting error reports from mappers/playtesters, fixing shit, tweaking models and other things). Basically, the position I was in 10 years ago with the Nehahra team where there was a good functioning feedback mechanism.

I can be many things, but I can't be everything ... not on a sane, normal mortal timetable.

I'll keep an eye on this thread for any additional thoughts and etcetera through the week. 
 
Consider zipping everything you have now and archiving it, you never know what you might wish you hadn't deleted. 
 
I learned my backing up lessons many moons ago and have since amassed untold of terrabytes of digital pack-rat goodness. Don't worry. I back up everything. 
Spirit Is Right. 
Oh, how I hate him for that... 
 
Is the new Nehahra episode going to have more custom monsters and weapons? 
 
Just wanted to ask how is that devkit coming along? 
 
I am definitely going to come back to this and address it seriously in May, which is the end of the first season of "Edict Zero - FIS" and the beginning of a 3-4 month vacation during which I'll have nothing else to do except writing (no production, releases, etcetera). Nothing else on my plate, and I won't put anything else on my plate during that time frame. I think I'll have spent enough time away from Q & Nehahra to come back to it freshly and w/ enthusiasm. Plus I can set my subconscious to the task of working out exactly what I want to do with it now.

Yhe1: yes, many more custom monsters.

Very sorry that I didn't move as quickly as I would have liked, but that I haven't abandoned it should be of solace. Most anyone else in my position probably would have, but most anyone else is not as neurotic as yours truly.

Thanks. 
 
You should check out negke's SPing DM maps, clearly monster placement is his strong suit 
No Need To Apology 
hi mindcrime, i'm glad to see you here again. i can't even say how much i'm looking forward to this nehahra sequel. don't apologize, good things take time and real life tends to intervine all the time.
-
jakub 
 
I think I'll have spent enough time away from Q & Nehahra to come back to it freshly and w/ enthusiasm.

i've found this helps a lot sometimes. :)
looking forward to neh2. 
 
yes looking forward to neh2 also!

hope that this realease give me also some motivation to map something :( I've been a lazy bitch to...

real life eat me all the time and the few I got, is for rest 
 
So it's *late* May, but it *is* May. Now I have the time to blow cobwebs off everything ... not to mention play Quake for the first time in a long, long time. :) 
Edict Zero 
btw, congratulations on finishing the first season, it was really amazing! great story, sound design, voice actors.. I'm new to audio dramas but just started listening a month or so ago and was hooked. 
 
Thanks! I appreciate you saying so! I'm looking forward to Season 2, but I'm really going to enjoy my vacation in the meantime. For the sake of what's left of my sanity :] 
Way To Push My Quota 
I gave this a try today and listened to the first five episodes while mapping. Totally agree it's great. Very professional with excellent voice actors and production quality. Good use of sounds and music (though basically a NIN commercial), and interesting story. I'm definitely goind to listen to the rest as well.

It's amazing how varied the characters are, given the low number of people involved. A few voices sound fairly familar, though it might be conincidence). I'm impressed by your voice acting skills, all the different styles. Socrates is the one of the best, heh. And there I was expecting everyone to sound like Phil...

Not sure if I missed this or if it's explained only later on, but I didn't quire get what Edict 1, 2 and 3 are exactly. Some government organizations + with a bit of conspiracy or something? 
 
yeah, I didn't quite understand what edict 1/2/3 were either. Partway through the season I found this glossary page here that explains them and gives a little more backstory (it's "non spolier"):
http://edictzero.wordpress.com/glossary/ 
Ah, I See 
Thx. I also just noticed there's a short info text on the right of each page which briefly outlines the setting of the series. I just started listening without checking for background information. 
It's A Bit Like A Sci-fi Twin Peaks 
 
 
I'm glad you dig it, and there were listeners back in September--when the show premiered--who were fuzzy on the "edicts". That's why the glossary came into being and that seemed to have been an enormous help in avoiding any confusion. 
 
How's nehahra 2 coming along? 
 
There was never a Nehahra 2, only an added episode. I have no plans to work on it now, not in the near future, maybe not at all. The old days of Neh development were nice, but after that, it became ridiculous. Every little thing I ask for from anyone seems to be a terrible inconvenience to them. I ended up having to do a range of things that were simply not my department, and even now, when I asked for feedback on maps from someone I trusted, it is going on 3+ months and they still haven't ... gotten around to it.

And that, my friends, is *it*.

If no one else cares, I don't care.

I'm done.

Game over.

I apologize if that bums anyone out, but I did all that I could. I don't have any tolerance any more for excuses, laziness, half-hearted attempts, etcetera. I'm done.

To hell with it.

Now I'm back to producing audio.

Window of opportunity has closed.

C'est la vie. 
 
Guess you asked the wrong people mindcrime... many of us are dieing for some new stuff of nehahra.

I'm always up to test if you need! 
 
Aw shitballs! How much new content was done? Maybe you should just release it with what was done, instead of trying to complete a whole new episode? Unless you've just got a whole bunch of half-done levels. 
This... 
is unfortunate :( Especially if it is this community that let you down. There are still Nehahra fans here that would love to see more from you in any way, shape, or form you can release it. Hopefully, you can get the support you need to get this episode going again. Thx. 
 
Eh... I needed a vent, because--if you can't tell--the way things almost always go when it comes to the development of this, and other people ... just pisses me off.

The original development of Nehahra was one of the best experiences of my life. The related stuff that came after : the most irritating, and insane, and ridiculous...

Nonetheless, it will be a little while yet before I can get back to it. (sigh) I probably *will* get back to it, too, because I'm hopelessly mashochistic like that and leaving things unfinished evidently bothers me on a level that it does not for some others...

When the time comes, I'll come here and solicit folks via this thread, as one final last ditch effort.

Hope that sounds good. 
I Think That Would Be The Best Way 
I honestly cant see why no one would respond to a call for help if you posted it here. 
I'm Up For It. 
For any need within my range of capability (like, making coffee, cleaning the floor, taking Shamblers out for a dump).

Nehahra is too good, and your dedication too deep to let this chance slip away.


P.s. (seriously, I can test if you like) 
But Sir 
Pretty sure some of us offered help in this thread a while back. Do we have to wear skirts and wigs for you in order to notice?

Apparently we didn't lick your feet long enough. The bottom line is, you either want to do something or you don't. You seem undecided. 
 
he is stick to is "old internet friends" I guess :\

Bal, czg and others...

I think things shouldn't be rush, many of us in here don't have the skills of the names above(me at least), just want you to know mincrime that when u feel comfortable to ask for help to other's we are still here!

:) 
Just To Clarify 
ahhh I'm not pointing to Bal or Czg was just a exemple of some people that worked in nehahra and did a awesome work in the maps! 
 
I have trouble stepping out comfort zones, because I don't like feeling precarious and out of control, but ... I think it's evident that I wasn't very comfortable, secure, or in control on this front, was I? No, not at all.

In Mid-October-Late-November, I will put the files together and have documentation in order. Then I'll upload them somewhere and make the files available to anyone here who wants to download them, playtest, etc. And anyone can then send feedback, suggestions, and whatever else via email, through a certain time period I'll establish (several months likely), and then ... in theory... I'll have the wealth of feedback, a better idea what needs to be done/changed for monster/item placement, the hitlist of bugs to squash, etc, so I can resume in an orderly, effective way... and get this thing done.

In the end, it's a gift to the community who will inherit it and do what they will with it. And it's a gift to me, because it will be over. We can hope it will work out for everyone. 
That Sounds Like A Plan 
:) 
Midcrime 
Maybe the people involved years before have also some changes in their own life, like not being anymore student, having a jobs, kids, wife, etc... and all this eat a lot of your free time.
I guess these "lazy" guys you are mentioning just changed their priorities, and you know what, it is obviously normal and it is life...
And I know what I am talking about as I am not mapping so often as I would like compared to some few years before...

Anyway, I really hope you'll find a new team to achieve a nehahra 2, really ;) 
 
JPL : I was venting when I referenced laziness, and it's a relative term (too often I expect other people to be like me : an almost inhuman machine that never stops and ho-hums, one locked on a track of principle, one that plows through everything like a brute force of nature if it has to. I'm aware of what's normal, and I expect other people not to be that. I expect them to be better ... even if that makes them as screwed up as I am. It's a folly of mine. And it's really off-topic, so I'll end it there. Bottom line: I'm aware of human dynamics and how lives gravitate. I was just venting.)

Anyway, as I said before, there's really not that much left to do. Maps are done. Architecture, ambience, etc. Almost all (like 99%) of the placement is done, even though it might need some rethinking on some maps. It's really right there on the line of a beta testing stage. That's what makes it a little maddening. The hard work is pretty much over. It's at a feedback and troubleshooting stage.

As soon as I can properly document everything in a proper devkit, you'll see.

I regret that I posted a repy on the matter though. I've been in a hell of a mood. Apologies. 
Nah 
venting's good. And now there's a plan! 
 
Yup. Now there's a plan. 
Nehahra Client Problem 
Greetings
I watched the nehahra movie and wanted to play the game now only to find the savegames dont work it seems it is trying it to save in a unix style directory form on windows 7 the error message looks like this: "Error can not create C:\Quake/Nehahra/s0.sav"

I also tried Bengt Jardrups Nehahra client
it has the same error and i cant use darkplaces because it doesnt work with GLdirect OGL2D3D wrapper for use with Nvidia 3D Vision which needs direct3d)

Please fix this i enjoyed the movie so much and wanted to jump right into the action :(
nonetheless thank you for nehahra an absolutely well done movie!!
3D Glasses worked great with certain camera angles :) 
Hmm 
Is the directory read only? You can check by right clicking on the folder and going to properties. 
Found A Solution Regarding Save Error I Had 
I got the problem solved
it was the line -game nehahra causing which i added to the shortcut of nehahra but you cannot do that nehahra looks for nehahra directory by itself.
Now its working and i can play

Thanks again for this awesome piece of quake 
 
You're welcome. I hope you like challenging gameplay.

We can also hope that there will be an updated version of the game some time before the stars burn out. Approximately :)

Cheers. 
 
haha, Can somebody also ask Glassman to release his sources? 
 
Glassman don�t respond emails as far as I know... 
What A Glasshole! 
 
 
haha thanks, that was good ;) 
Nehahra Projects 
been away for some time but i built a nehahra map once. Are any of the new quake engines capable of running higher poly monsters yet? with more animations?
id certainly load up worldcraft again if such was possible. 
Edict Zero Season 2 Is On! 
iART: Darkplaces, possibly DirectQ/RMQ, maybe more 
 
How's the dev kit coming along? 
FFS 
This is like the tenth time I see a new post in this thread and get all excited, only to find another Yhe1 one-liner post.

Learn to fucking email. 
OTP 
 
same otp :( 
 
i dl'd the son movie from over here:

http://www.archive.org/details/The_Seal_Of_Nehahra

i dragged the id1 folder and the quakespasm engine into the same root directory that holds the nehahra folder with all the .dem files and the pak0 file.

i tried the command line:

-game the_seal

it just goes to original quake. 
Peter 
that doesn't sound right! you don't need to do anything with id1. the nehahra folder should be next to id1 in the quake directory, along with the engine. then you just run it with -game nehahra

you might need a different engine though, i'm not sure QS supports it. nehquakebjp would probably be the safe option 
 
nah, i have a mac, so that won't work. i was told that nenahra is quite 'difficult' with both dp and qs, but i tried both, and dp seems to get it it going ok, from the brief look i gave it.

itried typing game nehahra in the console after execing with dp, but the console says unknown command "game".
and i need the id1, as it refuses to exec otherwise. 
Actually 
i've just re-read your post a bit slower and realised your folder structure seems ok :)

might just be a case of wrong engine. with aguirre's you shouldn't even need a command line (providing the mod folder is called nehahra and not the_seal or anything else) 
Crosspost 
 
Re; #344 
in darkplaces the command is called "gamedir" instead of "game" 
Aha, I See.. 
i've never used dp apart from running dp quake of retro blaster.

user maps i run in qs.

the video seems to be running fine. i had to 'disconnect', as is it said about not being able to change gamedir while server is still running.." 'n' all that jazz! 
 
Nehahra support could be added to QuakeSpasm but it involves a fair deal of messing around, and there are some parts of it that diverge a bit from the way QS does things so 2 codepaths would be needed there.

It's one of those mods that breaks away a little too much from standard Quake behaviour and as such is probably best served by it's own custom engine (it's engine changes also date from a time before certain things were well understood, so they're a little on the quirky and unique side). Even DP has been quietly dropping Nehahra support for a while now. 
 
Is it possible for Quakespasm to copy what Aguirre did? 
MH Is Saying The Engine Modifications 
required are a bit tacky by modern standards. Would be better for someone to step forward and remaster Nehahra just a little to bring it in line with modern standards than to implement the undesirable engine modifications.

Like web page broke in modern web browser, go fix HTML on web page. 
The Engine Modifications... 
Are not huge or difficult in themselves; it's just going through all the code and finding the "if (nehahra)" bits and that will get you a mostly working implementation.

You'll break every other mod on the planet by doing that however as Nehahra uses an incompatible protocol but doesn't change the protocol version number.

There are also some subtle differences in how it handles fog and entity alpha that are fiddly to work over.

You need to figure out how to handle fullbrights (Nehahra assumes that you don't have fullbrights in your engine) and other core Quake features that were present in software Quake but dropped by GLQuake. That goes strongly against the ethos of FitzQuake (which is QuakeSpasm's direct ancestor).

Other GLQuake bugs are relied on (e.g. sending a 0x0 dimension texture not crashing the engine) and if an engine fixes these bugs then you'll have to go put them back in.

A lot of stuff handled by QC that would have been better put in the engine - like restoring some cvar states on game load that were modified by stuffcmd.

There's a boatload of cvars it uses for controlling demos that can be easily added but ideally should be removed from autocomplete lists if Nehahra isn't running.

None of it is impossible to resolve, I've done it myself, and felt dirty afterwards. The question is: is it worth resolving? This stuff is firmly in the 2000/2001 era of thinking and doesn't have much place in a modern source port. 
QuDoS 
I use QuDoS' Linux port of NehQuake.
Is it still online anywhere ? I found this link
http://www.bfeared.com/library/quake/archive/quakedev/qudos , but no NehQuake. 
Gl Upload8 Too Big Running Nehahra.exe 
i've been trawling around but can't find a solution.
it seems to be a skins/models resolution issue.

is there a fix for this? 
..but Then Again.. 
apparently nehexe.exe is the updated version of nehahra.exe, so maybe i'll continue with that.. 
 
my normal 1920 1080 setting look really bad when i set them in the quake injector command line box, not sure why.

-width 1920 -height 1080 -bpp 32

another problem is the fact that my mouse look config settings are being ignored. even though i have checked them, and they seem fine. mouse 3, i just don't know.

i've tried removing certain files, running it, putting them back, repeat process. y'know, the usual desperate troubleshooting of a non-lazy but novice game player.
but still, nothing.

i've tried quakespasm, i've tried dark places, all on my mac.
i've now got a pc and i was told that the nehahra engine is the best to run this mod, but..these 'buggy' things that are going on.. 
Is This Still On Mac? 
Otherwise try BJP's Nehahra port: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/nehquakebjp.zip (inconveniently called glquake.exe, I recommend renaming it). Has a few bug fixes and clean-ups.

As for the mouse settings, did you try putting the corresponding binds in an autoexec.cfg? Do these old engines even support more than two mouse buttons? 
Nah, Didn't Work 
bind "MOUSE3" "+mlook" in the autuoexec didn't work at all.

i tried the bjp engine, but that was more-or-less the same.
no mouse look, and the screen was nearly pitch black, for some reason. i could hardly see!

why is it doing that?

the in-game options menu displays forward slash and mouse3 for mouse look. the forward slash key works, but..

it actually seemed to work better running it with dp on my mac. no fogenable, but, at least it worked 
 
the darkness problem was solved when i entered width/height/bpp info into the quake injector command line box.

if i delete the old config file, then drop in a new one, then run the game, mouse look is working fine.
quit out, run it again, it defaults back again.

could there be an autoexec inside one of the pak files overriding my settings?
if so, that's a bit shit, really.

it's annoying, but i could persevere with it. a solution would be nice, though. 
 
You can set mouse look to be always on if you put +mlook just like that in a single line in the autoexec.cfg 
Really? Damn, So Close.. 
 
NICE!!! 
spirit, yer a proper SCHOLAR!!! (as they say over here, sometimes..).

i think you can take from my exuberant response that what you told me met with success!

thank god, now i can play through this classic game..

is it just me, or have they really ramped up the difficulty/ai, especially with the grunts. i'm actually very nervous around them now.. 
Music Mods 
i've just installed nehahra with nehquake via qi, and i'm not sure about the music mods that are in .xm format.
even though qi puts the mods folder in the main nehahra folder, i'm not sure if it's correct.

i usually use quakespasm, and i know where i am, with regards to getting music files to work, and the folder structure etc.

there's a music file in the nehahra mods folder called 'neh1', so i assume it should be playing when i start the forge city 1 map.

also, i can't find any instructions concerning how to play music mods in nehquake, as there wasn't a read me contained in the download. 
 
anyone got any advice on the above post?

cheers though!

baz. 
 
well, i don't know which maps play the music, but few engines (if any besides the original neh?) support tracker music.
quakespasm and others play audio tracks (ogg, wav, mp3). 
 
incidentally, if you want to just play the songs, get modplug/modplug tracker to open and play .mod, .s3m and .it files. 
 
good call, I will be making vorbis of those mods. 
 
Nehahra plays the music dynamically, when triggered, doesn't it? Not universally looped throughout the map like normal Quake music. 
Anyways 
 
Just a note that I haven't forgotten about this and I apologize about some earlier crabby posts. I had some major health misadventures (from which I have mostly recovered) coupled with my life being turned upside down. August to December was an awful period, to sum it up. It was the perfect shit-storm and it set me wayyyy behind where I wanted to be on a number of fronts. Things are much better now and though new opportunities have arisen and there are other things on my plate that have higher priority ... well, know that I haven't forgotten. There's really nothing else I can say atm.

Good discussion going on here. Cheers. 
To Update 
As an update: the chance of returning to Quake work on Nehahra (and other meddling with the Quake engine) has gone up considerably. After this summer, I'll have nothing but free time (bachelor anew, among other reasons) and because I'm a nonstop creative hurricane, I will be able to find time for it without question. Just *because*.

I did make a recent entry on my Slipgate Nine Entertainment blog about Quake & Nehahra too, for any interested.

That blog is here: http://slipgate9.wordpress.com

I'll drop a note when I get those wheels turning again (Winter, on a guess). The next six months I'll be focused on the major life transition, which isn't all a bad thing.

Cheers. 
 
That's good news! 
Or Not, Considering The Cause 
 
"The Cause" 
Life is a journey. New beginnings aren't a bad thing if it leads to better, happier times. People tend to stick to bad situations because it's familiar. With familiarity, there is an off-setting comfort. Eventually, the bad can outweigh the comfort. That's when "change" isn't as scary as keeping everything the same. I'm optimistic and know that it's all for the best. 
 
I look forward to seeing some new stuff from you. Sorry to hear about the real life shit though. Most of us go through all of that at some point and as one of them let me tell you that it's never as bad as it seems when viewed in retrospect. You seem to have a good mindset on it so I'm sure that you'll get through it ok (and you can always make a particularly nasty and deadly trap in a level and give the a name... if you know what I mean). 
Good If You Can See It That Way 
Best wishes either way ;-) 
 
(No such catharsis will be necessary, Quaketree. :) It's an amicable thing.) 
Hmm.. 
i've played through the whole forge section, and not heard any music.
the only music i have heard is on the start map /the intro movie and the forge end of level screen.
is there a way i can play continuous music of my own choosing?
i'm using the nehquake nehahra engine. 
 
anyone know how to achieve this? 
Try: 
Open an audio program in another tab

Create playlist

Set to continuous loop

Press play

Start Quake

Can you hear continuous music of your own choosing? 
Touche.. 
ok, sarcasm, i get it, i really do (honestly).

anyway, that aside, that will do the trick just fine, actually.
i was just thinking to play my own tracks the way quakespasm does (sound/cdtracks/track002.ogg/track003.wav tracks etc.).

you see what i mean?i guess i didn't really make it too clear in my previous posts, so my fault, i guess.

is there a way i can use the nehquake engine to -play my own tracks without having to minimize the game everytime i start a new map, so i don't have to change to a different track on vlc or whatever?
i could play in a windowed mode, but i really prefer fullscreen mode. 
Ah Yes 
I see what you mean.

A built in playlist manager would be an awesome addition to any engine IMO. Especially gnarly Quakeworld engines. Though I could see it being a nice touch for an SP engine too. Would actually probably get used by a large proportion of users at some point. 
Anyone Now About This Little Problem? 
First token (/*) isn't a brace on line 8073

this is what quake error i get when running nehahra on nehquake.

i recently changed engines to see what dark places was like, then went back to nequake.

it's only when i try to load up my last quicksave that i get the above message.

i tried running it with DP one more time, and it loaded the quicksave fine, so the QS file is not corrupted.

i could continue the rest of the game with DP, but it looks/runs better on nehQuake.

anyone got any ideas/help for this one?

i tried looking around the net, but nothing came up. 
Another Thing.. 
i was running it through the quake injector.. 
 
looks like darkplaces adds in extra crap to save files? i've had that happen when i'm testing fitz/dp compatibility on maps/progs stuffs. 
 
is there any way to fix this?

i've gone through the folders and removed any files/folders not related to nehahra. 
 
Yup, DarkPlaces adds a /* ... */ comment into save files that other engines choke on. You can open the file in your favourite text editor and just remove it (be sure to change nothing else!!!) 
Nope 
now it's just saying:

First token (sv.lightstyles) isn't a brace on line 8073

i found two points where there were:

/*

all on there own on seperate lines, so i deleted them.
not worth the hassle, really.

i can either:

1) carry on, but using the dp engine

2) restart the whole thing all over,using just nehquake.

if i'd known this would happen, i wouldn't have farted around with other engines half way through a game.

oh well, shitty lesson learned:( 
 
try deleting everything starting with /* and ending with */ 
 
i couldn't find any other parts of the text that had /* or */ in it.

i'll continue on with dp, or maybe start again.
i should be able to be up to the point i was at quite quickly, maybe? 
 
/* and */ are block comments, this means that everything in between those symbols must be removed, not just lines where the symbols appear in. 
 
Just tested this with a vanilla Fitz 0.85 build.

DarkPlaces by default adds an extra block at the end - and only at the end - of the save file. You'll be able to identify it because it begins with something like this:

/*
// DarkPlaces extended savegame
sv.lightstyles 0 m
sv.lightstyles 1 mmnmmommommnonmmonqnmmo
sv.lightstyles 2 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba


So, if all that you've done is remove the "/*" and/or "*/" part(s), you can easily locate the rest of the stuff and remove it too.

Like I said, this is at the very end of the file, so find the "DarkPlaces extended savegame" part, and remove that line and all lines following it.

It also manages to contrive to use UNIX line-endings even on a Windows box, but that doesn't seem to cause any further problems. Once the main offending chunk is removed, the save game works. 
Interesting... 
it's commented out presumably to hide it from other engines' parsers, but only darkplaces can correctly parse multi-line comments? 
 
I'd assume that some others can too - FTE would be one obvious example, and I know I added it to DirectQ (because of this specific issue happening to me a coupla years back) but haven't tested it in ages - but otherwise, yeah. Nasty stuff. 
Still Works 
Cheers Guys! 
 
So What Engine Options Are There Available To Play This 
the nehahra engine runs like a bit of a dog on my new system for some reason (choppy/jerky) 
 
I know aguirre's engine supports this. DP as well maybe? 
Yes DP Supports It 
Actually the first time I saw DP was in the form of DPnehahra coming bunddled with nehahra. It was way back then, almost 10 or 12 years ago. How time flies ... 
@Nitin 
You've likely discovered the multi-core clock bug. Jerky, jerky fast, slow ...

It affects: all of Aguirre's engines, Fitz 0.85, many older engines. But not DarkPlaces, JoeQuake, DirectQ, Mark V or Quakespasm.

You might consider using JoeQuake for Nehahra, 
Hmm 
I dont get similar behaviour using fitz 0.85 for regular quake though? 
Nehahra Exe Source Download Problem. Download Link Request. 
Hello, everybody. And again, it's a dead fileplanet link: www.fileplanet.com/dl.aspx?/nehahra/nehsrc254.zip
Btw, i could not compile nehQCsrc.zip because reacc compiler give me runtime error 200 at 0002:0095 even on windows 98 SE virtual machine and even when the qc files are in another folder or deleted. 
 
https://www.quaddicted.com/files/engines/nehsrc254.zip

What is your goal anyways? Maybe people can recommend easier way to achieve than poking around in evil old code. 
To Spirit. Increasing Carrying Capacity. 
Hello, Spirit.

I want to increase my max health, max armor and ammo carrying capacity. I was very unsatisfied that I can carry only 100 points of health, 200 points of armor, 100 cells and 200 nails in Nehahra. In single player - there is nobody to leave ammo, health packs and armor for (on the levels)...

I know that these parameters (in original quake) are stored in .qc files named client.qc and items.qc. Darkplaces engine can display up to 9999 of ammo (of each type) and up to 1099 points of health and armor, and I'm gonna use these HUD maximums as my ammo, armor and health maximums. :)

For example in nehahra code in items.qc in function armor_touch (don't trash old armor):

Was: other.armorvalue = value;

Going to change to: other.armorvalue = other.armorvalue + value;

And delete or comment out this line:

if (other.armortype * other.armorvalue >= type * value)
{
exit;
}

In function ammo_touch and bound_other_ammo i'm going to replace values 200, 200, 100, 100, for example, to 9000.

In function PutClientInServer in client.qc
change self.max_health to 1099.
Aslo in function SetChangeParms

should be: if (self.health > 100 /*(not 250 but 1099)*/ {
self.health = 1099;
}
change in function T_Heal:
if (e.classname == "player" && e.health > 250 /*(not 250 but 1099)*/)
{
e.health = 1099;

}

And the last, function health_touch
change lines
if (other.health >= 250 /*(not 250 but 1099)*/) {
exit;
}

If they can, I will be very grateful to them. :)
Yes, it's a bit cheater thing but I really need it. :)

The more unreal the Quake is (including unreal carrying capacity), the more I like it. :)

Cheers, Alex. 
 
for ammo caps, check this function in items.qc:
void() bound_other_ammo =
{
if (other.ammo_shells > 100)
other.ammo_shells = 100;
if (other.ammo_nails > 200)
other.ammo_nails = 200;
if (other.ammo_rockets > 100)
other.ammo_rockets = 100;
if (other.ammo_cells > 100)
other.ammo_cells = 100;
};
 
Problem About Carrying Capacity, Max Health In Nehahra Is Solved. 
Necros, don't forget that we are talking about Nehahra qc. You also should increase the values in function ammo_touch in items.qc otherwise the function will return nothing and ammo will not be picked up.
Properly, the topic is here:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-help/servers-coding/10530-qc-what-do-i-need-run-reacc-without-crashes.html 
 
oh sorry, i didn't even know it was written in pascal. 
Rtlights For Nehahra 
hi there, sorry for ressurecting this old thread. i made rtlights for the whole nehahra + some other small graphics tweaks. darkplaces isn't very popular around here, but maybe it will be interesting for somebody who would like to give nehahra another go.

more info, screens & download at the bottom of the first post here: http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod-releases/finished-works/11833-jakubs-rt-lights-experiment.html

take care

jakub 
Super Necrobump 
I was wondering if anyone would consider picking up the torch for Nehahra?

It would be super, super cool if the mod got a bit of spit and polish to make it fully compatible with modern standard engines.

The mod deserves more love and should be more easily accessible in all its glory for players new to Quake. It would also be a lovely 20th birthday present. ;) 
Yes, More Support For That Gem ! 
I was never able to play Nehara with QuakeSpasm on a Mac. I did "played" its maps but without the mod features, so most of the maps are "broken".

I never understood why Nehara can't be played with QS. Any info on this ? 
 
I have no idea what changes were made in the nehahra engine, but I'm guessing no-one wanted to have to maintain all that nehahra-specific stuff in QS just for that one person who wants to play it that one time. 
 
Proper Nehahra requires a lot of engine modifications, extra built-in QuakeC functions, some minor physics changes, a couple of barely new particles that are hardcoded, awkward ways of doing what we now do in other ways, and if you intent to do it right, extra cvars and commands and other little things to support the demo playback. Plus some other things that are too technical and boring to describe. 
To Sum It Up 
its awkward and boring, right?

My memories of playing nehara are faint, and yeah...
I don't have a problem with not being able to play it. (Strafe jumping monsters in quake, wtf lol..?)

I'd put 50� in the bucket for a proper support by june nevertheless. (Lets revive the bounties.. or sth...) 
 
You can switch strafing off. 
Yeah With The New AI Off 
it's much more enjoyable IMHO. And the maps still rock. 
 
I was thinking of the mod itself being made a little more compatible. That way it would be one job done once and then everyone could play Nehahra more easily.

Is there anything that the mod does that couldn't be redone to suit modern engines?

PS: I'd also be up for chucking some money towards a bounty... 
 
Is there anything that the mod does that couldn't be redone to suit modern engines?

This is one example and I'm working from memory here so I could have some things wrong.

Skyboxes.

The modern standard is to add a "sky" field to the worldspawn entity.

The Nehahra standard is, IIRC, to stuffcmd a "loadsky" command when the player enters the map.

In fact Nehahra could be considered the king of stuffcmd. There's one case, I don't remember exactly what, where it stuffcmds the same setting every frame (in addition to all the other stuff it uses stuffcmd for).

This is an example of the kind of thing Baker means when he says "awkward ways of doing what we now do in other ways".

The point I'm making here is that bringing Nehahra up to modern standards is a little bit more than just a simple touch-up here and there. It's virtually a rewrite. 
On Spirit's Recommendation 
I tried the Requiem engine for nehahra and it works very well. 
Directq 
Directq 1.88 patch 1 also supports nehahra 
 
Here is a DOS Quake engine with Nehahra support

http://dk.toastednet.org/QDOS/ 
There's one case ... where it stuffcmds the same setting every frame

Yes - we all love Nehahra... but QS support is too hard, and i would kindof die before we inlined it.

Someone should update and host QuDos' (cross-platform) NehQuake (as an Darkplaces alternative) if it hasnt been done. Maybee i still have the source. 
Nehahra Autoshotgun 
Import Nehahra's autoshotgun into arcane dimensions 
 
I originally posted this question on the Quaddicted forums, but since no help seems to be forthcoming there, I thought I'd repost it here:

Hi all. Wondering if anyone could help me out in my second attempt to play Nehahra [using ReQuiem]. I played through about half of the first episode a while ago, but a hard drive crash erased my progress. It seemed like the start to a great campaign... except for the strafing AI which lots of people seem to complain about. I tried using the nomonsters 1 command, and ReQuiem seemed to accept it as valid in the console but it had no effect, either when I used it in-game or before loading the first map with the console. Everyone was still running around and strafing like an asshole. That's my job! Also didn't work when I put +nomonsters 1 in the command line, nor when I put quotation marks around "1". 
Did You Try Putting It In The Config Or An Autoexec? 
 
 
I didn't. Doesn't work when I put it in the config, having tried formatting it in various ways. What's the correct extension for an autoexec? 
.cfg 
 
Iirc 
there's no much difference between nomonsters 0/1
the monsters still wont behave like your vanilla Q monsters 
 
That's too bad. I thought the quaddicted description implied it would disable *all* ai changes. 
 
The monsters do still strafe, but there is still a noticeable effect. Maybe you are inputing the command wrong 
 
Grunts and enforcers will no longer strafe when setting nomonsters to 1. Read the source if you want.
You have to use an engine that supports it. 
 
I've been using reQuiem. I also know Fitzquake Mk V supports Nehahra, maybe I'll try that.

@Yhe1: I added a line to config.cfg like so
nomonsters "1"

then made an autoexec.cfg with the only line:
nomonsters "1"
and left it in the mod folder.

Assuming I'm not inputting it wrong, I could just not be noticing the difference.

Although, to be honest, whether it's working or not--I'm already back to where I was the last time I played Nehahra and it's not that bad. It's probably a combination of knowing what to expect and being better at Quake now, but I don't mind so much. It would be nice to know if I'm doing something wrong, though. 
 
Have you tried this syntax: "nomonsters" "1" in your config/autoexec? 
 
The engine accepts the command. It just doesn't make Nehahra a whole lot less annoying. I highly doubt redundant quotation marks are gonna fix that. 
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