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QUAKE IV Discussion
This game deserves its own thread for sure.

Post your impressions please. (but no spoilers, or use warnings).

How it stands, compared to other Quakes and Doom3

What about MP?

Tell us how it runs on your ti4200 or r9600
(6800+ owners dont bother please)
etc
Mmmm 
Well I had bad first impressions of its performance, however now I have got my vid card settings fixed I have it running at 1280*1024 medium settings averaging 30-60fps. That's on a 6600gt.

Since there are no spoilers I won't mention the big one I am sure everyone knows already from all pre-publicity, but I have to say that my first impressions of the Guake 4 guy (it just feels weird referring to him by a real name) as being a slow mover improves later on in the game.

Models ingame are much better than I expected from pre-release screenshots, and everything fits together nicely.

Varied (and BIG!) environments however some bits do feel a little bit too Earthy. I know that the general asthetic is carried over from Quake 2 but can anyone explain why an alien species would use the same horizontal yellow/black lines we do as a warning on floors?

Most levels don't have the same polish as D3, however the fact that the environments are much bigger and can thus have less detail crammed into them makes that understandable. That's not to say there aren't some stunning locations in the game. :)

I'm guessing I am just over halfway through right now and this is the first game in a while I haven't yet felt bored enough to cheat to get to the end of a level.

Objectives are a little contrived sometimes, but most of the game truly feels like you are part of a greater war going on all around you. 
 
o.k i�ve already try!! i think is a good game...much better then doom3... more lights and more action.
I like the guns very much :) guess i will be a small fan of this one! no game will ever bring much atencion as Quake I but guess it was becouse was my real serios game...since duke and doom2 was just a small part of the fun playing offline... online was just Quake I and since then, nothing that i�ve seen beat it!

maby i will find some of u guys in a Q4 server :) 
Not Yet In Shops... 
.. in France, and i don't know when the game will be avalaible... but for sure I will buy it.. or at least find a crack... ;P 
It Will Be Released... 
...in England tomorrow. :D Which is perfect timing, because I've had an essay to write this week and most certainly would not have worked on it at all if I had Quake 4 to play. Thanks Activision, you may just have saved my career. 
Single Player Ennui 
guess i'm just two hours into the game, but so far i'm quite disappointed. of course, it looks great, but the actual gameplay so far is bleh. it's extremely linear - so far there's no alternative routes at all and nothing to explore.
if i understand Tron correctly, you'll move faster later on in the game, but so far the slow movement also derails the gameplay. and what's with the lame arcade sections a la the atrocious serious sam 2?
i really can't find anything positive to say except that the graphics and models look great.
it also runs better than i had feared - very close to doom 3.

i'm also playing f.e.a.r. at the moment and the contrast when it comes to visceral gameplay, atmosphere, a.i. and plain fun is almost overwhelming. in f.e.a.r i've replayed lots of sections immediately as the fights were just so amazingly cool - in q4 it feels like you've done them 100 times before already. 
Yay! 
ok, everything finally clicked in a level called "Perimeter Defense Station", which was beautiful, tense, loaded with cool details and generally chaotic in a good way. things might be shaping up. will shut up now - at least until i've finished the game. 
 
I am still not interested in this game whatsoever, and everything I've heard about it makes me less interested. Raven seems to have just fallen off for me, they haven't released a game I was interested in since Hexen 2. Quake 2 was a good game, but this just doesn't seem like it's a worthy sequel. 
Initial Disappointment Syndrome 
Yes...I had suffered from the early feeling of disappointment, but that has vanished, maybe it was the game at the begining, maybe my state of mind, whatever. Things are much better than my first impressions. The weapons are pretty cool, and sound and feel great. I get great satisfaction out of using the shotgun and nail gun, but they are all quite good.

I'm very close to the end I believe, but either I'm missing something, or it is a bug, which will not allow mw to progress..., frustrating. Had a similar thing earlier on where you had to wait for involvement from one of your teammates to progress, however that involvement wasn't forthcoming. Had to repeat the previous section to get it to work as it should. Speaking of teammates, they can be a real pain in the arse, they are just so braindead. Some places, one in particular, they stand around a doorway in like a covering formation waiting for you to go through, and when you do, there is an event which requires you to retreat, but your path is blocked by your team, goodnight!! I would prefer no teammates, but...

The vehicles/Vehicle sections I have seen so far are all pretty lame, and the control is worse than any other FPS with vehicles I have seen. 
Does 
Q4 have a physics similar to the one in Q2??
Q2 was the only game where I managed to learn a lot of trickjumps. 
Nice 
i'm in the middle of the game and it rocks! awesome gfx, mean stroggs, feel of the war around and general fun :) good game, and it's exactly what i expected from q4. 
Most Definitely Better Than The %70 
That PC Gamer gave it. All in all after a rocky start for me, it turned out to be a very enjoyable experience. Maybe a tad short for me, but that's ok.

The Good
Graphics, Some awesome visuals.
Sound, love it, table shakin' goodness.
Level Design, for the most part. Some very cool stuff to be seen.
Action (might be old school, but nothing wrong with that)
Weapons, good feel, sound, etc.
Player Control/Feel.
Atmosphere, sense of being in a conflict.
Some awesome mechanics/machinery, wizbangery.
Multiplayer is an absolute blast.
Silky smooth (for me) System dependant of course
And most important of all..., It's fun!


The Bad
Can feel like the game is on rails.
Could have been more open to exploration.
Teammates are annoying, and tend to get in your way.


The Ugly
Teammates, they can be a real pain in the arse, especially when they cut of your retreat/advance, and cause you to take damage or worse.

Vehicles/vehicle sections, the places where you just 'ride' in a vehicle aren't very good at all, I would have preferred not to have that at all. The vehicles that you could actually drive/control, felt bad, the control was the worst I have experienced in a FPS with vehicles.

At least once, my progress through the game was brought to a halt, because of an event/scripted sequence, that was supposed to occur to allow you to proceed, did not occur, causing me to have to restart that level and play through again. Others have mentioned similar things, some in the same place as I encountered mine.
(the other one I mentioned above, wasn't a bug, just my own foolishness, overlooking the obvious :o( )

Really looking forward to going through this again, and then maybe again...

How does it stand with the other Quakes, well, it can hold its head high as far as I'm concerned. After all it IS Quake4 
Hmmm, 
Perhaps teammates aren't that annoying, they are useful, and unfortunately necessary for the game, however when they are annoying, they certainly are.

The vehicles, well, they may not be that bad, although they aren't that good either, they are playable. Thankfully they are only a small part of the game.

now off to the servers..., let the killing begin... cue evil laughter... 
Oh My God. 
This is actually good! To be honest, I was expecting to be highly dissapointed, but it's actually the most fun I've had in a new game for years.

Some of the set pieces and events are spectacular, and I even found the AI pretty good -- this is considering that the Strogg are designed for combat, rather than to act like humans. They've got some pretty cool moves. And unlike most contemporary shooters there seems to be some variety in the enemies from the very begining! Jackpot.

I love this game, and feel it worthy of the Quake series. 
These Bugs You Guys Mention 
where you have to repeat parts to get things to work right - would you mind posting or emailing details? :) 
The Good Stuff 
some of my initial complaints stand, but i want to strike a more positive note, so:
* it looks completely spectacular, with eye-popping architecture in places and nice details. if looks could kill, i'd be dead by now.
* the monsters are generally adorable - impressive models, neat movements and sounds.
* the weapons are satisfying as well.
now i *will* shut up. just wanted to balance my first post. 
Bugs, What Bugs? 
Oh..., those bugs ;)

Well I'm on my second run through the game, (currently nearly finished the Mech section) The place where I encountered the problem was where your team were just about to detonate the EMP device. After you've gone and done your thing, and return, the dude starts trying to detonate, (Trying not to spoil for anyone, but you should know what's going on)well anyway, after that action takes place, the scar faced dude is supposed to give you orders and open something for you, however on my first run through they just stood around the dead guy, and nothing further happened, they just stood there. I had read on some forums somewhere that others had also had a similar thing in the same area. Replaying that level everything worked fine.

I have passed that section on my second time through the game, and it worked fine.

------------------

I don't know what I was on when I played the first couple of levels on my first run through the game, what it was that gave me such a negative view of things, but those first levels rock, it's action from the start. Might be true what they say, that once you reach 40, your mind and body start to go, mine must have just been delayed a couple of years :)

I still feel the same about the vehicles/vehicle sections, but I guess they add a bit of variety, would have been good if the control felt better, and the ones you just rode on allowed a bit more freedom, I guess there would be design restraints as to what the player is allowed to do... just feels really on rails, shooting galleryish. The teammates don't seem to be getting on my nerves as much, maybe I am just used to them, and, or learnt how to deal with them.

Quake4...,Lovin' it!! 
Got It Today 
So far so good. I hate my squadmates, I hate the marines, I hate riding on vehicles.
When it for a seldom five minutes lets me go on my own, it is the rocking.

My specs;
Athlon XP 2600,
1GB RAM,
GF4200ti 128MB.
Runs fair enough at 640x480 medium quality. Framerate dips when there's like two dozen people in the scene with 5 lights on every surface and a hojillion sexplosion effects going on in the skybox.

Overall score so far: Giraffe. 
Love It! 
ok, so i am schizophrenic - so what.
my total frustration over the quake guy slowness has totally dissolved (i try not to spoil anything, so i'll keep it vague) and now it's not only fantastic looking but also great fun. thank god, as i really wanted to like this game. and now i love it!

first f.e.a.r and now this. brilliant. 
 
Finished my second run through last night, awesome stuff, looked around a bit more, found some more things than the first time, I even appreciated my teammates presence this time through.

Multiplayer is very addictive, fast and brutal. Does become a bit spammy when there is to many on the map, which is to be expected, but when the numbers are right...ROCK. Gets better and better the more you play.

Vehicles... :( 
 
I do say, I believe I found some wierdness lunaran. The jumpads in mp are targeted to info_location entities (the sucessor to q3s target_location), as if it where a common garden variety target_null. Outrageous, I could hardly believe my eyes, I had to have a brief lie down. And don't get me started on info_locations not actually being used as they should, why in my day mumble mumble... 
Does It Work? 
Tinman: If it works why get all outraged? :) 
Ok, Just Finished It. 
If it was just the game, and they dropped all the fucking retarded storytelling, and dropped the fucking retarded vehicle segments, it would be a very awesome game. As it is, it is just good.

SPOILERS:
The boss with that scarface guy who sticks his pole into the sparkly bits was fucking difficult. The flying fat thing that I thought was the Makron was also fucking difficult, but more bearable than the scarface guy. The final boss fight was a joke. Didn't even die once.
However, in the last 1/3rd of the game, I rarely had more than 70 health. I often had to complete entire levels with nothing more than 30, and then I had to run gauntlet around all monsters and just pray I never got hit.
This was on normal skill mind you.

Also on the latter levels everything ran a lot slower than usual for some reason.

Climbing those three identical towers was pretty meh. The first time it was cool.

This game has made me more anti-American. I fucking hate the fucking US marine corps now. Shut up. I promise (not a promise) this will be the last game i ever pay for that contains lots of marines running around and being oh so tough and mean and like glory and honour and shock and awe and shit like that because that was getting old already in q2.

Kinn: You are SO fat!





Conclusion: Go buy this game but remember to turn off the sound whenever someone (in the game) is talking to you.

Biff: You are SO old! 
Czg 
agreed regarding fucking american marines... so boring.. 
Grr 
CZG, no storytelling is better than crap storytelling. Also, would one of you raven employees like to explain why everyone knew about the plot twist before the game was even released, and how people at Raven feel about it generally? I've seen a lot of people complaining that it was spoiled for them in the previews because too much information was revealed.

Anyway, still no comments from me. I probably won't get a chance to play until Christmas, but I am kinda looking forward to it based on the decent feedback it has received (from people who I respect, rather than some hack journos with their tongues placed firmly on Gabe Newell's shaft).

Oh, how is the music? 
Music 
Well, As soon as I found out how to turn it off,(60 sec's after I first heard it)it was only a distant memory. What I did hear wasn't my thing. FYI,
seta s_musicVolume "0"
in the Quake4config.cfg turns it off, default is "0.5". There is no actual menu option to alter the music volume individually.
I never listen to game music, whether it be in game or not. Music is the first thing to be turned off for me.
The ambient sounds etc I liked alot, as I did with Doom3, it really helps build the atmosphere. The sound in general I thought was well done. Love the weapon sounds. 
 
therealthan> Also, would one of you raven employees like to explain why everyone knew about the plot twist before the game was even released, and how people at Raven feel about it generally?

i didn't know, but frankly, i wish i had - as i was completely frustrated until it. i even considered to stop playing - but i wanted to check out the amazing graphics, so i gave it another shot.

someone should release a mod which skips the lame vehicle parts in the single player campaign. 
 
The final boss fight was a joke. Didn't even die once....... This was on normal skill mind you

I found there was a GREAT difference between Normal and Hard Skill (whatever there Quake4 equivalents are, corporal/lieutenant wahtever) in the final boss fight. My first play through was on hard, and second time through I went normal, and on normal I could just basically stand there and blast away and that was that, not so on Hard 
Thanbler 
Also, would one of you raven employees like to explain why everyone knew about the plot twist before the game was even released,

If you mean turning into a Strogg, it heavily featured in the promo video clip, released, presumably, by Raven.

If there's another twist, I dunno.

Now if Amazon would HURRY THE CUNT UP AND POST MY FUCKING GAME "DISPATCHED IN 24 HOURS MY COCK" THEN I MIGHT ACTUALLY KNOW... 
IIRC It Was ID Who Let The Stroggification Bit Be Known 
 
I Suppose They Let Slip 
because it's somewhat of a gameplay feature aswell as a twist. They needed to say -something- to get peoples attention, and I think it worked.

Though yes, it would have worked very well as a surprise too. 
So 
how does it actually affect gameplay ? 
Yah 
looking forward to this - I'll prolly play it in about a month I'm guessing. I agree with others in that I value the feedback from actual Quake fans (i.e. you guys) much more so than the agenda-filled shit you read in the media reviews.

Not over the moon about all the story/cutscene bollocks though. Carmack has actually said in his own words that he feels it's a shame that when you make a game nowadays, you basically have to make a B-movie as well, and they can't just concentrate on what makes a game, well, a game.

In a similar vein, I'm guessing they felt they had to put vehicles in just because it's what their consumers expect from an FPS now. It's a shame because I always feel that the Quake series should be "pure" - free from cruft and just concentrating on the very essence of FPS. 
Nitin 
You run faster, you reload faster, you get 25% more health and armor, you can use strogg health stations scattered around the world, and (I might just be imagining this though) the text on the strogg monitors becomes readable. 
Strogg Texts 
SPOLIER
about the text on the strogg monitors: you can actually see the text changing when the brain 'something' implant is being made on the monitor where the brain scan is displayed. The stroggification is well designed after that (hud changes, move faster), I loved the fact that you could hear both strogg and marine radio transmittions. Noticed on the second run through the game. It really should be played on hard once you get used to the weapons. 
Carmack Should Be Stroggified 
if that would make him do things the way they want instead of "what they have to". 
 
Lunaran, someone told me you were responsible for Lost Fleet. Thank you! The map is great, it's the best of the out-of-box maps, I just had a 2vs2 on it and quake 4 felt like a completely different game. 
Cliptastic 
Yay! Most of the maps seem nicely clipped 'n' caulked, shouldn't take me too much time to slap in some botclip and shake that sexy aas.
Oh except for q4dm2 terrain mesh will make baby bot cry :(, I will need to do a bit oh work on that.
A chunk of patch on stairs of the edge too, no problem.
Patch stairs on ctf1 should be ok after a quick n nasty botclip wedge.
And finally ctf3 with a few patch floor edges to brick up.
I would say it gives me something to do while waiting for sdk, but I've allready got plenty to do and don't mind if the raven lads take your time :P
I don't know if I'll spend that much time on my bot, a quick port in the very least. I do know of some more experienced bot authors lined up to have a crack at their own. So people won't have to put up with the retardedness of my bot (if they don't want to). 
Phew 
finished the game, liked it alot! everything rocks there.

sometimes american soldier bots blocked my way, but that's ok. and i wish the main hero betrayed humans and joined stroggs and didn't destroy their main brain... personally, i didn't want to destroy it... 
Troubleshooting. 
Just getting the shit setting up right.

Firstly - I've solved a problem with using the zoom / alt fire mode crashing the game - updated video drivers so was obviously a problem that the old drivers didn't support the visual faggotry zoom mode entails.

Secondly - the god-fucking-cunting-awful headbob, I can't believe that put something this awful in a game but there you go. I've half-solved this by adding the following commands:

seta pm_bobpitch "0"
seta pm_bobroll "0"
seta pm_bobup "0"
seta pm_crouchbob "0"
seta pm_runbob "0"
seta pm_runpitch "0"
seta pm_runroll "0"
seta pm_walkbob "0"


to the Quake4config file. BUT each time Q4 quits, it resets that config file and removes those commands. So I have to copy and paste them in each time before playing.

Anyone got any ideas how to get those commands in permanently??

Thirdly - anyone know how to reduce the HUD size?? Looked on the Cvar list here: http://hwspirit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129 but couldn't find nowt?? 
Shambler 
Er... put those commands into autoexec.cfg like you would do with any Quake-engine game?


...Duh 
Duh. 
Oh yeah silly me, I should have known that Quake 4 would function in exactly the same way as all the other Quakes as it's so similar in engine and in how things function, and remember exactly how I got commands to work with previous Quakes from the last time I had to tinker around with such stuff which was only 7 years ago with Quake 2 WHATEVER THANKS GENIUS. 
How About 
write-protecting config.cfg?
that was an old q1 trick too. 
Maybe It's Just Me... 
But the thing that made my draw drop in the game was quite sadly enough a rather mundane and boring shot...

In the opening cinematic, there is a shot where all the marines are sitting down in the dropship before it is hit, the lighting, the models, texturing makes it look pre-rendered like a cgi movie from just a few years ago. 
Voodoo 
Only the brushwork. Someone else laid it out originally.

And czg's right about the spoiler.

And that's all I'm going to say from here on out. 
The Spoiler 
Is mentioned on the box and the manual ffs _<_><><_>_ 
Also... 
In the multiplayer mode for people who jumped there first you have the Stroggified Kane model.

I actually liked knowing the spoiler was coming up, it meant that I kept on waiting for it to happen in various fights and made them more tense. 
Hmm 
Game becomes alot more enjoyable after that spoiler... =) Was too damn slow before, should have happened earlier...
I'm definatly enjoying this more than Doom3, although the atmosphere isn't quite as nice, and the progression is very linear. 
Linear 
yeah, It's just like Doom3 in this respect, with less dark corners and some side doors to open just to find a dead end.
Still no ambushes while crouching, and still NO secrets. I remember when re-playing q2 I was thrilled to find the secret level which took you into a space ship, did not find it the first time I ran through the game.
But this deserves it's own thread (what was wrong/could have been done better in Q4 SP); I think some of the enemy sounds could have been improved, I loved the old sound of the iron maiden from q2. 
Playing Playing 
normal fps bits are fun (thats where you`r on your foot and indoors)
wehicles/target practice parts fail
and outdoor looks bleh for the most part
indoor levels are nice, I like the lighting

monstes are nothing exciting so far , except huge red spiders

overall, this game reminded me of Elite force1/2 (by Raven/ritual) rather than quake
I dont really mind squadmates. Not bad attempt at making player feel involved into a military operation and AI is quite good

performance:
Game runs like shit on the older hardware
-ati 9600xt some slowdowns even in 640x480
-ati 9800 some bad FPS in 800x600, ok in 640x480
-fx5900 medium/800x600 with rare slowdowns
(no AA/aniso there ofcourse)

and at settings low/640x480 it just looks ugly
(no wonder)
gameplay is quite faster than in d3 and when u get fps drops in combat and cant aim - its just not fun. Im enjoying Qfour much more after changing 9600xt to fx5900 and o/c my ram+cpu slightly 
@Mitu 
But it does have secrets! I've found quite a few armor health stashes etc that are hidden away(doesn't tick off a counter though.) No secret levels either as far as I have found. 
Secrets ? 
no, I meant real secrets, a secret level would have been nice, a cave level somewhere you could kill some secret lab experiment about a new weapon or, in the game trend, to give you a weapon upgrade so you could kill
more stroggos on hard skill :). 
It's... 
...very, very dark. Not overall but so far filled with unrealistically pitch black shadows. 
Shambler 
that's teh d3 engine for you :} 
If You're Complaining About Secrets... 
... then how about the lack of Quad damage in singleplayer? I was looking forward to finding a few scattered around, nomatter how 'unrealistic' it may be. 
 
I was looking forward to finding a few scattered around, nomatter how 'unrealistic' it may be.

"The Stroggs would NEVER put their quads here." 
Kinn. 
Yeah. I don't think I like the D3 engine to be honest, or at least not the way it's been executed so far.

Harsh lighting + complex textures > having impressive designs + clear visibility = dissappointed smables 
What The Fuck Is 'smables' 
the failure of shadow-volume realtime light at convincing outdoors illumination has never been so apparent ;/ 
 
smables means shambler you dump russkie! 
The Strogg Are Bamboocha! 
awesome game!
the sound rocks everything i know - this probably is the first game that really makes me realize what a subwoofer can be good for. all the explosions and stuff (war athmosphere, similar to cod, but more accustucally intense) - great! the weapons sound cool, too, especially the machine gun (which usually sounds like a grandma taking a shit in most games).
there was also some nice looking machinery - one thing i appreciated about doom3, too.
i'm pleasantly suprised the game runs very smooth on my machine - in fact even better than doom3 - both in 800*600 + high quality settings. i experienced some minor slowdowns only once or twice.

the strogg player model doesn't look that good, though, it's not stroggy-mean enough, too skinny, orange and all...
why can't the dead marines be ragdolled??
and yeah, gameplay is extremely linear (in fact, there is *always* *only* one way), but i didn't expect it to be any different, so it's okay. still a cool game.

the stroggification comes too early in my view. i hope this doesn't mean the game is as short as i fear (i'm at the waste facility now, i think), because that would really suck ass. doom3 felt kind of long - in a positive way - but about q4 i will see... 
 
some maps after stroggification but before the Mech have choice of routes actually - just need to look around more 
Hmm.. 
About sounds, I thought the machine gun actually sounded pretty bad, dunno... just sounds so plastic, feels like a toy or something. Rest of the sounds are fairly good, music is pretty bleh though, sometimes it sounds like something you'd hear in some ww2 game or something. =\
Still enjoying the game though. 
 
tried mp: maps are cliche - 45 degree angles, trims , prefab walls - like ztn q2 maps . and many maps look the same 
Secrets 
I'm going a bit OR with this, but did anyone actually like the HL2 secrets? There were plenty of them, but I NEVER felt rewarded by them. I would spend ages stacking fucking crates up to reach a secret area and find a fucking box with a clip in it...

..thanks for nothing, bastards.

One thing I like to find is hidden areas, where the reward for finding the secret comes from a small area you can expklore that contains neat details or cool views onto another part of the level (such as a good sniping spot, or view of enemy patrols etc.) Finding a health pack or ammo is so cliche. 
Yet Again, I Fucked Up... 
a bit OT. 
I Agree. 
 
Q4 Multiplayer 
While certainly not a carbon-copy of Q3 multiplayer, the speed, simplicity, and sense of "weight" in a Q4 deathmatch make it feel similar to me. In fact, I think this is the only decent, competitive deathmatch game to be released since Q3. Raven did a great job of incorporating the best aspects of the entire series into Q4, without sacrificing SP or MP gameplay.

For me, Christmas came early this year. 
Q2 Is Still Better Mp 
no double jump here :\ 
Geforce 4 Ti 4200 
I have a geforce 4 ti 4200 (128mb),
is Q4 gonna run ok on this card?
(athlon xp 2400, 1024mb ram)

or is it again time to buy a new card? 
Jimbo 
I have the same setup, except with an athlon xp 2600. Runs fine for me at 640x480, medium quality, shadows enabled.

Then again, I hear there are some size queens who refuse to play in anything less than 1280x768, and throw tantrums if there's no antialiasing. Fuck you, size queens. 
Hmmm 
I have a friend who has the same card, less ram, but I can't remember his cpu speed, it is amd also, it would be close to what you've got. He seems to play Quake4 ok, both SP and MP. I have not seen it running on his system myself though, I would imagine that there is a lot of stuff toned down. I can ask him about detail levels, resolution etc and how it runs and get back to you if you like?

I think he runs at 800x600 
Well There You Go 
 
FPS Games... 
....without anti-aliasing is like fist-rape without lube - ROUGH and really unpleasant to watch. End of story. 
So Shambler 
From this we gather that you enjoy a good, lubed up fisting? 
Oh Yes. 
I do. 
Ok 
go buy 7800gt everyone!
you'll get absolutely different experience!
1280 + high setting + fps 60 and more = omg, constant ejacs, need more doom 3!

saying that as proud owner of hi-end hardware. 
Performance 
Jimbo... not exactly sure about Q4, but I did run Doom3 with a setup similar to yours:

Athlon XP 2600, 1024 RAM, GF4 ti4800.

I was able to run 800x600 with medium quality and get pretty decent performance.

In my (brief) experience with Q4, it seems to run similarly to D3.

Important: make sure you do at least some brief comparisons with different resolutions and detail levels. I say this because after doing some timedemos in D3, I noticed that there was no difference in frame rate when I upped the resolution from 640x480 to 800x600. It all depends on your hardware, so don't just assume that 640x480 will automatically be faster. 
Czg 
Then again, I hear there are some size queens who refuse to play in anything less than 1280x768, and throw tantrums if there's no antialiasing. Fuck you, size queens.

In general I'd agree with you, but there's one important point that you might be missing:

LCD displays.

LCD monitors are made to run in a specific resolution (the one I have here is 1280x1024). If you change to any other resolution, the image is often pretty shit - much more blurry and crappy than it would be on a CRT display. Results vary depending on the game, and whether you let your monitor or display adapter do the scaling, but sometimes its pretty bad.

For this reason I run as many games as I can in 1280x1024. World of Warcraft, for instance, is particularly bad when you drop the resolution... the image is so much sharper and nicer at the monitor's native resolution.

On the other hand, obviously, I'll drop the resolution if absolutely necessary - in D3 and Q4 I just can't run 1280x1024 at an acceptable frame rate, so I have to drop the resolution. Its actually pretty decent in those games anyway... the drop in image quality isn't all that noticeable (the scenes are very dark and busy, maybe that's why).

By the way, czg... I may be a size queen, but you may be a size doofus :D

If you're running in 640 you may find you can increase the res with no performance penalty. It all depends on whether the bottleneck in your system is your video card, CPU, memory system or whatever. 
Smab 
....without anti-aliasing is like fist-rape without lube - ROUGH and really unpleasant to watch. End of story.

So do you always have it on? Do you prefer a lower resolution with FSAA to a higher resolution without?

Just curious - I generally value performance more than image quality in FPS games, but I guess you'd get both with a decent video card and the right settings. 
Fribsee 
can't you run at 640x512 - each pixel is doubled and the picture is sharp again.
Maybe the drivers or the game don't support this... Though even darkplaces support separate horizontal and vertical res. 
Settings 
I ran very properly Doom3 and HL2 with AMD Athlon 2600+, ATI Radeon 9200+, 768 MB RAM, and my screen size is 1024x768 (flat 17')... No choppy image, no bugs, no problem at all...
I took a look to PC requirements for Q4, and at least will work fine for me... 8D...
BTW, I used the defaults settings all the time, both for my video card and for the games itselves..
In anyway, hoping it could help somebody about settings issue ;) 
Fribbles. 
Generally I run games with 1024x768 and 2xAA - I'd probably go for 4xAA with a better card. I never feel any urge to go higher than that res. I dunno why, maybe cos I use 1024 for my desktop.

With D3 / Q4, I run 800x600 and 2xAA, which from tests with D3 runs pretty similar to 1024 and no AA - BUT I prefer the look of the lower res and AA, I found 1024 looked a bit too harsh and rich with the D3 engine.

As for AA at any res, I DO notice it, I noticed it a long time ago in a "blind" test (i.e. I was playing a game where I thought I had AA on, and after a while the jaggies started annoying me, and I realised something had gone wrong and AA was off).

Make what you will of all that O_o 
 
Finished q4 yesturday. was feeling kinda sad actually... I'll bitch about 'marines' a bit later

the truth about performance: you really need fx5900 (minimum) to enjoy Q4 at 800x6, or better a gf6600 (its only 100$) and 6600gt very good fps at 1024x
It is _playable_ on ti4200, but hardly enjoyable.
And at 640 it just looks ugly -much more spacious areas than in D3, thus you dont see any detail at distance (textures get blured, geometry gets into pixelated mess) and still relatively low fps. Sack your gf4 for whatever money u can get for it and buy 6600gt

Everyone is advocating his setup (see von and czg) but I got to try q4 on several systems at work, ofcourse 6800gt is excelent, but 6600gt is smoth as well, and its ~2x cheaper

1gb ram would help too - raven abused huge textures

AA is not much of use in q3 tech games, cause most of the detail comes from textures. Better up the resolution and turn on aniso filtering - better looks for more fps.

and congrats Frib, saying the truth about oh so trendy LCDs that are bleh for gaming 
Some More Q4 Impressions 
still haven't finished it (which is strange, because usually when i get a new anticipated game i do almost nothing else than playing it).

+ shotgun reload - on shell at a time (at least before the upgrade), not as unrealistically as in d3
+ the organic machinery part and everything following the disposal facility (zombies+their dungeon) ->
+ the human machinery - this is a very cool feature. i like such misanthropic thingies. human bodies (or parts) used as machines or devices of some sort, to process data, to produce energy maybe, to filter waster products, and so on. i also kept in mind one information given earlier in the game that those former humans are still aware of what happens around them, but they can't help it. there is also a place where one of those guys with severed limps is being programmed or something, everytime this rotating machine stops he panically looks at it and so on... ver nice

+- finally gibs! took quite a while for me to see some (only after i got the rg and lg)
+- the waste processing boss was kind of cool, but i found it also a little annoying for some reason i can't recall atm

[- consistancy: not that much of a problem acutally, but it's always strange to find supplies (or supply crates) in enemy territories that couldn't have been passed by marines yet. i don't care so much, but this is something that happens in other games, as well]
- i experienced some unpleasant clipping errors in the disposal facility
- some maps feel a littly boxy (at least i had the impression). they still look good because of the interior (pipes, machines) and the lighting in most cases, though. 
Oh, And 
concerning the top post:
it works fine with a radeon 9600 (albeit pro = 256mb)....


...if the rest of the system specs are okay, too, of course. 
 
3ghzAtlon, 1024ram, radeon 9800pro, 1024x768 Medium quality and everything else on default, it ran quiet smoothly. The game was loads of fun from start to finish, I wasn't too fond of the vehicle parts but all and all a great game, I loved it. Can't wait till some custom single player maps come about. 
Fagots,Morons, And Loosers 
[quote]Then again, I hear there are some size queens who refuse to play in anything less than 1280x768, and throw tantrums if there's no antialiasing. Fuck you, size queens.[/quote]

You fucking mob of retards, the only people who would make such comments and complain about it are those who can not run games at a respectable resolution. Those with the hardware to run games as they should be, would not even mention crap like this. As I can see it there are only 2 reasons for this.

[bold]1.[/bold] You are morons or fagots, probably both. - Can't help you there

[bold]2.[/bold] You are loosers. - Get yourself a job and buy some decent hardware.

You call yourselves gamers? retards! If you can't run the game how it is meant to be played, don't go ragging of at those who can. ffs, I make sure that I will be able to run whatever game I am going to play at full speed, high res, and with everything maxed out. If my current machine wouldn't be able to handle an upcoming game, I buy new hardware, the latest and greatest at the time to ensure that I can run it the way I like. Simple isn't it?

Buy yourself a good monitor, nothing less than 21" will do (I have 5 of them, 2 dual 21" systems, one for game editing, gaming and one music, and one single 21"system for the internet and general shit), only fagots, morons or loosers use 17" or 19", anything less than that you are just a plain retard. Real gamers, real men use 21" and above. In conjunction with high end video cards this ensures the ability to run at high res with high refreshrate.

Not that I refuse to run at anything less than 1024x768, 1600x1200 in my case, I [bold]CHOOSE[/bold] not to, if that makes me a size queen, then so be it, at least I don't go bitching that I can't run games at high quality levels, you whining mob of pussy's.

And one more thing, just because you are all stuck in a timewarp, trapped 10 years behind the times, doesn't give you the right to whine about not being able to run the latest games. Get with the times.

Quake is dead, has been for 8 or 9 years, it's a crappy, ugly, abortion of a game which doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the games of today. Quake sucks!! Get over it you bunch of nerdified fags.

L8R, fagots, morons and loosers

sizequeen, and proud of it! 
Fagot Board 
what kind of a fagot board is this 
Fagots,Morons, And Loosers 
Then again, I hear there are some size queens who refuse to play in anything less than 1280x768, and throw tantrums if there's no antialiasing. Fuck you, size queens.

You fucking mob of retards, the only people who would make such comments and complain about it are those who can not run games at a respectable resolution. Those with the hardware to run games as they should be, would not even mention crap like this. As I can see it there are only 2 reasons for this.

1. You are morons or fagots, probably both. - Can't help you there

2. You are loosers. - Get yourself a job and buy some decent hardware.

You call yourselves gamers? retards! If you can't run the game how it is meant to be played, don't go ragging of at those who can. ffs, I make sure that I will be able to run whatever game I am going to play at full speed, high res, and with everything maxed out. If my current machine wouldn't be able to handle an upcoming game, I buy new hardware, the latest and greatest at the time to ensure that I can run it the way I like. Simple isn't it?

Buy yourself a good monitor, nothing less than 21" will do (I have 5 of them, 2 dual 21" systems, one for game editing, gaming and one music, and one single 21"system for the internet and general shit), only fagots, morons or loosers use 17" or 19", anything less than that you are just a plain retard. Real gamers, real men use 21" and above. In conjunction with high end video cards this ensures the ability to run at high res with high refreshrate.

Not that I refuse to run at anything less than 1024x768, 1600x1200 in my case, I [bold]CHOOSE[/bold] not to, if that makes me a size queen, then so be it, at least I don't go bitching that I can't run games at high quality levels, you whining mob of pussy's.

And one more thing, just because you are all stuck in a timewarp, trapped 10 years behind the times, doesn't give you the right to whine about not being able to run the latest games. Get with the times.

Quake is dead, has been for 8 or 9 years, it's a crappy, ugly, abortion of a game which doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the games of today. Quake sucks!! Get over it you bunch of nerdified fags.

L8R, fagots, morons and loosers

sizequeen, and proud of it! 
Eh, Okay. 
It was kind of boring, repetitive, and predictable.

(And of course you still messed up the tags after two tries at it, and your spelling and grammar ignorance make Baby Jesus cry.)

I'll give you 4 out of 10, just for sheer effort. 
A Swing And A Miss. 
Monsters 
Yesturday at tf we were discussing q4 monsters...
While I think they are not too exciting, being mostly hummies, they are quite good still.

My fave being the Harvester (huge red spider) - impressive somewhat frightening even and reminds of war of the worlds and some anime a bit.
Mini makron (smaller spider-like) is nice looking as well. Out of himanoids the gunner (ng/gren guy) dude and ... 'zombies' ( I like how they crawl from the barrels and try to move even w/o legs).
The "most rediculous" award goes to grunt aka 'iron monkey' - it doesnt fit witht the rest of monster design really. 
Q4 
Is That Vin Diesel? 
 
Phait 
WTF !! How can this screenshot colors be so ugly ?? 
Argh, 
whoever is responisble for the nexus core arena fight (on skill 2) should be dismissed at once! this really was the most annoying thing i've played for a VERY long time. the only reason i didn't cheat was because i had no idea how to bring down the console (duh).
in retrospecive it probably wasn't that hard, but as i played it those stupid flying homing-missles shooting fatsos sucked big time - two would have been fine, four were shit. i don't know how long it took me to get past this area, but i guess some 30 tries at least...

compared to that (and in general, too) the final fight was ridicously easy. this fact actually also reminded me of q2, where the player not only had the bfg and lots of ammo, but also quads and pents en masse, so the macron became a joke.
the final fight should always be the ultimate challenge, hard but at the same time not annoying. unfortunately, very few newer games manage to fulfill this principle.

anyway, despite all the nitpicks i mentioned, i really enjoyed playing q4 - great graphics, details, sounds, awesome-looking monsters (and nice porting from q2), cool environments, great overall atmosphere -> excellent game!

(now, i only hope nightmare is not as bleh as in doom3...) 
 
what nexus core, remind me?

yeha final was too easy, especially the makaron itself - ~10 seconds! 
 
near the end - in the last map before the finale.
hall with some columns, four runner-martial-arts-strogg, four flying fatsos, two spiders... remember? 
What? 
I don't remember fighting the Makron...I am pretty sure that after I destroyed that big brain thing it went straight into the ending cinematic.

I either have a faulty memory or somehow skipped the entire Makron fight! 
 
Makron is before the Brain in the same arena 
Neg!ke 
yeah, that was actually challenging bit, but I liked it. Reminded me of the typical q1 custom sp finale.
several 'flying fatsos' at once are hard - the blue rocket kills in one hit and has huge splash 
Interesting 
Almost Forgot: 
have you found any easter eggs? because i haven't, at least not that i could recall...
but there have to be some - it wouldn't be quake without? 
Eggs? 
none.
some stashed supplies only 
Simple Thoughts. 
Was a good fun game. Good enough gameplay and nice maps, and a fairly good atmosphere. Not as good as it should have, too linear and some obvious weakness, and not very progressive, but it's useful to have straightforward fun FPSs as well as proper innovative ones.

Likes:

Good general designs.
Decent amount of monsters.
Stroggos setting.
Any monsters that are strogg-like.
Outdoor bits.
Other marines and proper missions feel.
Nice GFX effects.
Gladiator rail effect.
Stroggification.

Dislikes:

Vehicles (often artificial and silly).
Too linear, on rails the whole time.
Arenas (also silly and artificial).
Not enough proper Strogg monsters (too many pseudo-humans).
Ending boring.
Should have had more Q2-like enviroments.

That'll do. 
Goodness, I Have Said Nothing Before Now 
Overall, I really liked it, enough to have gone back and played through again this weekend anyway. Seemed solid, felt Quakey, Strogg look fairly Stroggish. Might be imagining things but it sometimes seemed like enemies had different particle FX (blood/sparks etc.) depending whereabouts you hit them. Weapon upgrades work well, taking a weapon that is already good and making it better is the way to go (as opposed to say, Pariah, where most weapons are fucking useless until at least one upgrade has been applied). A more engaging and exciting game than Doom 3 I think.

Where are the parasites? They were my favourite Q2 enemy, I guess there is a creature that looks a bit like one but really isn't the same thing at all. Definitely would have liked some monstrous monsters.

The worst thing about the tank and mech levels is the way the regenerating shields are implemented. It's like the designers saw the regenerating player shield in Halo, but failed to grasp what it was that made that game mechanic fun. In Halo, you get beaten up and the hide in a corner shitting yourself, hoping that the shield regenerates before you are found by the enemy. Once you've been in the clear for a few seconds, the shield charges in a snap. In Quake 4 you fight a bunch of enemies in an arena and your ride gets shot up a bit, but unless you're really trying to get fucked over it's probably still OK. Still, better wait for the shields to recharge though... about a month later the shield starts to charge, another couple of weeks charging follows that and eventually you're good to go! Basically, shield depeletion is only a threat to you if you are impatient enough to proceed without waiting for a recharge. Thus Quake 4's version of shield regeneration serves only to artificially slow your progress through the level.

The grenade launcher's blast radius seems to be about 5 miles. This is both a good and a bad thing.

I like the multiplayer, although it seems like the pure server system still has the same stupid problems for custom maps that Doom 3 did. For goodness sake, just make it work like Quake 3 did! Also, needs more player models. 
Q4 Monster List/.pics (spoiler) 
Could they possibly use the word "unrelenting" any more?

The "Putrafication Processing Slave" idea is pretty neat though, I've never seen anything like that... 
 
Could they possibly use the word "unrelenting" any more?

Yeah, but they're also "brutal" and "devastating" :P

I've never seen anything like that

What, you mean a big blobby boss monster you can't kill with your guns, and instead have to work your way around the perimeter of the room to activate a feature that kills it? 
 
looks like mancubi. that's a good thing. ^_^ 
What, you mean a big blobby boss monster you can't kill with your guns, and instead have to work your way around the perimeter of the room to activate a feature that kills it?

No. From what I read the impression I got is you can ride the monster or you interact with some part of it's interface to control/kill it. 
 
That's not how I read it. Interesting.
Is this the case? Can someone who's completed the game confirm..? 
From the list: none of your weapons will destroy the Processing Slave, you simply avoid its attacks while working your way round to the control console situated on the left hand side of it's body. Once the control console is activated the Processing Slave will smash the glass and a door will open to its left.

Ok so you can't ride it, I surmised that from the screenshot of it (looked like you could hop on top of it), but otherwise kinda interesting. 
Putrefication. 
It's just a stationary mini-boss monster. You run past it avoiding instant-death attacks (on hard skill), and then press a button which kills it. Looks cool but not really the epitomy of exciting gameplay *_* 
 
defecation slave was a neat one actually
def better than makoron

oh, and you were not supposed to look at it unless you played the game! 
Hehe 
actually, i wasn't planning on getting it soon, but those monsters actually look pretty neat, so i might pick it up now. ;) 
 
No. From what I read the impression I got is you can ride the monster or you interact with some part of it's interface to control/kill it.

Needs more Shadow of the Colossus.

^_~ 
Heh 
I like how they call the rollerball enemy a "convoy." The entity name is monster_strogg_convoy because it's the monster in the convoy missions. :P 
Q4 Demo 
So I tried the demo. Here's my thoughts.

Pros:
+ Character modeling. Raven always seemed to do well with this. The eyes and head modeling especially. Too bad D3 didn't do this as good as Raven did. Honestly most of the effectiveness is in the shine of the eyes.
+ It performed better than Doom 3 generally.

Cons:
- Feels console-ified. It really feels like they watered down the legacy of id's work. I realise there are more features and action and such in Q4, but ever since the X-Box, it really feels like a lot of games these days are lacking because they're compromising for both platforms, and it's like the PC rarely gets a solid-overall title. It felt on rails, to echo the sentiment of many others.

- The sound was horrible. That first enemy you see goes something like "heegh-uuuaaghh!!!" way too many times. Not only that, the weapons sound very weak. The machine gun didn't look beefy enough. The nailgun felt very stiff (ah remember Q1's nailgun? It doesn't do it justice in Q4).

- Is it just me or is the specular x100 in Q4? It really ruined the immersiveness. Bright areas or flashlight lit areas were practically white. I realise Q4 isn't the only game guilty of this, but it seems even more present.

I knew from the start Q4 wasn't my cup o'tea. I didn't wanna play a reinvented Q2. The demo just confirms that dislike, only for even more reasons. 
Oh And 
Monster design is mostly ridiculous. That fat stupid looking monster was just... dumb looking, with those cliche concept-art-jutting-out... canister things from it's body. It's as if "hmm, I really don't have any other ideas for this monster, let's put some jutting canisters on it!" 
Got It A Few Days Ago... 
playing through still (haven't had enough time to finish it yet :o )

some points i'm thinking of atm:

i'm not really bothered by the linearity of the game. non linearity is fun, but i don't mind if it's absent. i didn't like the one vehicle 'ride' where you're standing in the back of the truck... that kind of shit just bugs the crap out of me... you can't even move at all... it's just stupid... i look around at the 2 other dudes on the truck with me, and they're both ducking for cover... and i'm stuck standing there like an idiot. right.

the second 'ride' in the truck where you have to use the mounted gun also sucked copious amounts of ass. just boring.

first makron encounter roxored, but the first time when i died, the game sent me to the restart/loadgame screen... so i didn't realise
you were supposed to die, and retried a good half dozen times until finally, i died one time, and instead of reloading, sat back for a moment (in frustration) and the makron scene started up properly. one of those 'wtf' moments...

stroggifcation (retarded name, btw...) sequence was darn cool, and well done. being able to see the guy in front of you getting the 'treatment' before you was good.

walking mech vehicle was fun, but annoying to use as it pauses all the time when you switch from forward+strafe to just strafing. very irritating.
hover tank was better as it didn't have the pauses, but it was still sluggish. while that makes sense because it's a tank, after all, it's not really that much fun.

weapon sounds are much much better than anything d3 had except maybe for the plasma gun. they all have much more body than d3's, and sound a lot more like actual guns with power. compare d3's flimsy machine gun to q4's, or, even more so, d3's shotgun to q4's shotgun.

music is pretty cool too. it usually fits in with whatever is going on the screen.

pod sequence, where you crash into that strogg tower was really cool too, and the whole area after that (where i am currently) is totally awesome. the first encounter with the iron maidens was pretty cool, although, i think the pink dress on them looks kind of silly. i'm not sure what raven was going for with that, but it doesn't look all that good to me... i think mainly because it stands out so much. none of the other monsters have any odd features (although, the orange metal on stroggified humans is kind of garish).

anyway, just what came to mind... need to finish it now. :) 
That Reminds Me 
Demo - The intro sequence, all in-engine was nice - and the music in-game was pretentious. 
Just A Message To Say 
That's the last game which I bought.
I bought doom3 and quake4
And the xbox version was better than the pc version. I'm fed up with that, why we have no coop mod on the pc game ? 
Got It... 
...as an early Xmas present last night. One tower to go, very little sleep. I'll post comments later but just say now THANKYOU RAVEN for giving the weapons some stopping power. So much more fun to play than D3. 
Quake 4 
the demo does NOT show how good this game is, I loved it from 4th map onwards to the very end.

The stroggification sequence was the best in-game cutscene I have ever seen :D

ffs the vehicle sections sucked so hard...

level design was utterly brilliant 
Cool 
You just started my day on a warm and fuzzy note. Glad you liked it.

(and yeah, I personally wasn't a big fan of the vehicle sections either--didn't feel as strongly as you do, but I certainly didn't love 'em) 
Pjw 
why didnt u actually use vehicles some more integrated way? could have used mech in more imaginative ways and make player jump in and out of it for some missions 
Hmmn 
I actually had very little to do with planning levels/missions. I joined the project late, and by that time most decisions re: game progression and levels were already made. 
WTF 
I didn't know you were at Raven TOO.

Note to self: keep up 
Thoughts So Far 
Ok, so I got this game for christmas, and have been playing it as of today. I started on the hard difficulty (I'm guessing it's "hard", because it's the third one).

Without repeating what everyone else has said, I'll just say that I agree with a lot of you; the vehicle sections suck rancid badger scrotum, really dragging down the overall quality IMO, which is a shame as the rest of the game (y'know the FPS bit) totally kicks arse, being quite a bit more fun than Doom 3 whilst looking just as damn good, and often better.

The squadmate thing works surprisingly well - I get the impression that they're saving my arse just as much as I'm saving theirs, which I'm sure was the intention, and it does work.

Well, I've just got to the Makron atm, and I'm dying quite a lot :} - I'll try to give him another go tonight.

More impressions to come... 
Finished It 
The Rawk:

Looked awesome, sounded awesome etc. etc. Great story and atmosphere. Definately a Q2 game. Even a few nods to the Q2 missionpacks (Gladiators with shields, flying repair bots, to name just two). Great-looking enemies and bosses. Superb realisation of the Quake arsenal; old favourites from both Quake 1 and 2 were there, which kicked mighty arse. Rather scary in places too -very similar to Doom3 in this respect.

Weapon upgrades - a good way of keeping all your weapons relevant whilst the enemy threat increases as the game progresses.

Teammates - having medics and techs that replenish your health and armor (it made me fight to defend them from dying just as much as myself.

The Sawk:

Squadmates acting dumb - standing on the edge of lifts blocking them from going up ~_~, blocking your retreat etc...

Some really inconsistent combats, e.g. the last big arena battle before the final battle. I mean wtf? Fat flying homing missile dudes, then those big spidery dudes, and a ton of other big bastard monsters? The final makron/nexus battle was just such a piece of piss in comparison.

Outdoor areas look kind of meh, but that's probably the D3 engine's fault.

Vehicles/on rails sections - crap. Should have been polished a lot more or omitted.

The "Maybe It's Just Me":

Enemies overall a little overpowered? It seems that even the weakest strogg could completely obliterate me from full health and armour if I didn't carefully consider my tactics and weapon choices. Meant lots of frustration and reloading. (I started on Hard, but brought down the console and changed it to Normal about halfway through; I still got eviscerated a lot though).

Shotgun underpowered? I ended up using this gun the least out of everything; maybe because the game seemed to favour mid/long-range combat I never got much use out of it.

Didn't mind the linearity. It's unrealistic to expect developers to just go around throwing resources into making whole chunks of map that may never be visited by the player. FPS games have been like this for a while now (probably since Half-Life).

Overall, I'd say that Quake 4 stands nicely side-by-side with Doom 3. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I don't think that I could really single one out as being better than the other.

Finally, hats off to those on this board who were involved in this game (and I know there's a few of you.) Well done chaps ^_^ 
Kinne... 
--- Enemies overall a little overpowered?

Yeah I kinda agree. They strip you to bones real quick. Would have prefered a few more enemy and less powerful.

--- (I started on Hard, but brought down the console and changed it to Normal about halfway through; I still got eviscerated a lot though).

Pussyclart man.

--- maybe because the game seemed to favour mid/long-range combat I never got much use out of it.

Agreed. Generally you don't want shit close where it's harder to avoid, so shotty was down the list. 
Just Played The Demo 
I really liked it. It was a lot of fun, and whilst nothing really new or groundbreaking, certainly had me wanting more.

The weapons felt quite nice and satisfying, and the enemy, although looking a bit meh were fairly good fun to fight. The berserkers are a damn sight more scary than they were in Quake 2, that's for sure.

As numerous people have pointed out already, the atmosphere and feeling of being part of a squad, in a war, is really well done.

Didn't think I'd like the game when I saw the screenshots before the game was released, but as it turns out, it's fun and looks good.

Even runs really smoothly on my notebook. I'll try a higher resolution next time (I was at 960*600 widescreen I think.) 
Glad You Like It. 
You realize that you need to make a Q4 version of "Pretend Best Friend", yes?

*nudge* 
Heh 
Maybe you can make it again :)

I haven't bought the game yet, and I'm not sure what daft price PC games cost here in Japan. I think they are expensive though. Might order it from the US. 
And What's It Going To Be Called This Time 
pretend boyfriend ? 
Hmmn 
Nah, making a second remake of someone else's map would be...I dunno...weird in some way. You can do it. :)

Dunno about "Pretend Boyfriend"--makes me feel like prancing. 
Initial Comments 
1. Installing the game is like the Tower of Hanoi puzzle, but with only one column.

2. I'm not very far into the game, but so far it feels more like D3.2 than Q2.2. Supposedly that changes later on. 
Raven Squad? 
I keep looking around for "id squad" and "Activision squad" but I haven't seen them yet. 
Just Installed This 
had a quick run through on level 1 with 280*1024 and ultra quality.

d3 looked more polished but this looks like it has better effects (upgraded engine?).

does it run slower later on or is level 1 a good indicator for system specs ? 
System Specs 
I'm up just past the "spoiler" area, and so far the "peaks" have all been about the same as level 1. I haven't had to adjust the settings. 
Cheers 
rpg, I'll leave it on ultra and the currentresoultion then. 
Just Started To Play It Some Days Ago... 
... and it is a little bit deceiving. However, it is visually very good, and the ambience is more Doom3-ish (but for girls) rather than really Quake-ish... a shame... though

Stroggs are moving like disco dancer when they try to avoid my bullets", not really like brutes running on you...

Well, I would have expected something more intense... well, maybe the next levels will be better, as it is quite annoying at the moment...

Id software, where is the Quake spirit ?? 
Hmm 
Romero left. 
Jpl 
I found it got better as it went on. Some of the later levels are terrific. 
Well 
Actually I've just been stroggified, and it seems it changes here and there some small things, that makes the game better now: I hope it will progress like this till the end :) 
The Strogg Changes Stay 
the levels get even better looking IMHO. 
Easier Boss Battles Ever. 
Quite enjoyable progression, though... 
Easiest Boss Battles Ever. 
Is probably not a bad thing.

I liked Quake 4. It felt pretty much like Quake 2 + Doom 3. I'd have prefered more exploration and shit, but it was still good and a good atmosphere. 
Easiest, Right. 
And, true, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

I liked it, too. Nice interactive movie thingie.

More exploration and a dozen more levels(coupla secret ones, maybe?) wouldn't have hurt one bit, though... 
I Still Wonder 
Why no official addons were made. It's a really good game, i wanted something more of this theme 
Right. And For That Matter... 
...Why so few DOOM3 e Q4 user made addons?

The last fps that I remember having a decent scene in custom mapping is maybe Q2...

I don't dig often for customs, but I don't think I have more than 10 DOOM3 and maybe 4 QUAKE4... 
Thats Just Because 
its a lot of work isnt it? especially if you want to make a new theme.

most new games require way more time to make maps than your usual q1/q2/unreal map. 
Nitin 
Indeed a lot of time. I started to make a q2 styled q4sp map, but is still <50% ready. But i hope i'll finish it someday.

Btw don't you think that custom mapping era is very close to it's end? 
Nitin 
Indeed a lot of time. I started to make a q2 styled q4sp map, but is still <50% ready. But i hope i'll finish it someday.

Btw don't you think that custom mapping era is very close to it's end? 
 
I don't think it's at an end but IMO it's very fragmented. You have those who are willing to put in the effort to map for newer engines and you have a bunch of people who like the engine they're on (Quake, Half-Life, etc) and just stay there. If you're having fun there's no reason to move ahead in engine unless you really want to. 
Pulsar 
I think for most newer games, yeah. Especially new themes in new engines are hard to do without a team of people working on a mod type scenario.

But you'll get people making some custom maps, if only to try their hand at new engines but most of these will utilise the art assets that shipped with the game rather than have too much new stuff. 
Philosophical Post 
I have been thinking for a while that I'll be moving on after Remake Quake. I just find DOOM3 an all around pretty good shooter game. I might just map for that engine as well once I have a machine that can reliably run it. Less reason to make mods for it, too, because it already has all that stuff like breakables, pushables, rotateables, ingame computer consoles and entering keycodes, inventory, NPCs/scripts, several bosses, high quality sound and graphics, a predictable target engine, better AI etc., yadda yadda yadda. All the stuff that is such a big part of Remake Quake (and that some people view as crazy ideas), for example, is already there. No need to invent CSQC or code breakables in DOOM3.

And obviously, I think that stuff is needed. That's what I'm interested in, really. Additional devices. Not so much additional monsters, game modes or weapon mods. I don't want to play soccer in a shooter, I want to splatter monsters across the wall with a shotgun in the dark. I do like some scripts or cutscenes though, I don't think they take away from the monster killing somehow. Time to roll a fag, indeed.

Why mod it? It is the result of years of modding. It's all there. I would much prefer a project where I could simply map, with the whole modding part already done and in place. This is what I hoped Quoth would be. As it turns out, Quoth is not a next-generation FPS toolkit for Quake. I don't blame it, it just means you have to code your stuff yourself, and partly your stuff is even redundant. :)

I like the D3 look, too. I might be a very ... simplistic or linear thinking mapper, but the variety of themes never was an issue for me. I like games with a relatively uniform look that tell a story in one or two places from A to Z. I think fewer, but more varied themes are good. Idbase for example is super limited. I find myself wanting more different tech textures and gadgets. Idbase has wall panels out the wazoo, but very little actual things. It's like that with all the Quake themes. Anyway, I don't care about the looks as much as the things that happen in the game.

As for it being harder to map for than Doom or Quake, well that's the price you pay then. The upside is that very little modding would be required. In my book, that's a good deal. 
 
Will you add a grappling hook, call it RedoneDoom and make a software-rendered port? 
Hmm 
Gonna suck when people won't be able to map for newer games... Who want's to have fun downloading 4gb, megatextured Rage maps? 
Hmm 
Tbh 4gb is only like 30 minutes. Back in the dial up days it'd take me as long to d/l a few hundred kb map.

It's far more a question of the time envolved in creating a more detailed map (altho there's the argument that map object pack will become the new texture packs) 
Well 
The mapping standards in terms of design and the level of detailing grows every year. If we compare it to the time of quake or doom, it was much easier to a newbie mapper to make a good map than today. The time of large mapping scenes is in the past. So what will be in five or ten years?

Maybe this subject deserves its own thread for discussion? 
Is It Possible 
that we just need better tools? Or is what we have now as good as it can get? (Aside from tools that automatically generate exactly what you envision in your mind, of course). 
Uh... 
Tools are getting better and better, obviously there's always room for improvement. 
 
UnrealEd and the Crysis editor are pretty damned slick, at least as far as placing assets and getting the level working. Creation tools, like Max and Maya, I dunno if there are better alternatives. 
There's A Ridiculous Amount Of Room For Improvement In Tools. 
 
Sometimes 
when I'm using Radiant, I'm thinking of Hammer. Sometimes when I'm using Hammer, I'm thinking of Radiant. I just can't choose between the two! 
Spirit 
No, quite the opposite. 
Complexity 
If tools are getting better with each generation of game, but content still takes longer and longer to create, then we are in an obvious pickle.

This trend seems to benefit companies with larger budgets, because they can afford to satiate increasingly-hungry customers; I mean, they get to influence the expectations of players to want 'more and more' instead of 'better and better' (although sometimes 'more' is 'better'). 
Definitely 
Quake 4 is worth playing... I was a little bit septic at the very beginning, but now it is definitely awesome.
There's indeed a feeling of "deja-vu" as the game looks like a remix of Quake 2 mixed with Doom 3, but OMG ! this game is good..
Also, monster AI is surprising sometimes, and this makes the game interesting, particularly in tactical combat... Well, I'm very heuury to fight the final boss, hoping there's a big one at the end....

Ca va saigner !! 
 
inertia

I think it's just the nature of the content these days. You no longer simply create a texture, for example. You create a texture and a specular map and a normal map and possibly a transmission mask, etc. It's just a longer process because the expected quality bar is much higher.

The tools are catching up but it always takes awhile. When Quake was the hot new thing, I remember that computers were barely able to handle the VIS process and level editors struggled to load any map of even id1 size.

Whatever is the current tech will always be more difficult to create content for. Now, 10+ years later, we create Quake content and barely even think about it. It seems so simple. :) 
 
id software seems to see how much better tools are needed, judging from the indepth look at their rage tools one or two years ago. 
Re 171 
yeah, but when you compare crysis to rage, rage doesn't look all that impressive when it comes to tools.

building stuff in crysis (and i guess far cry 2?) is incredibly easy to do... as long as the model assets are there.

i felt id was a lil slow when it came to integrating editing and playing. for example, the original unreal had it's own editor that was fully integrated. far cry had integrated editing/game engine allowing real time preview (and switching into the game) instantaneously half a year before we got doom 3.
id makes great engines, but if anything, they seem to be really slow with working on ways to create content for them. 
Tools 
So what do you want to see in new generation tools? As for me doom3 radiant had a lot of stuff in it, including in editor realtime rendering. But not in editor playtesting. What more do you want to see in modern tools? I have am old pc and don't know much about new tendentions in tools content 
Tools 
So what do you want to see in new generation tools? As for me doom3 radiant had a lot of stuff in it, including in editor realtime rendering. But not in editor playtesting. What more do you want to see in modern tools? I have an old pc and don't know much about the latest tendentions in tools content 
Well... 
Can't say for doom3 really, but for Source, getting external content (new models/textures/etc) into the editor is kind of hassle, whereas with Unreal, it's really quick and easy (and I think it's the same with Crysis).
Also did doom3 radiant have a tool to create shaders? 
Personally 
I think the biggest problem with content creation these days is that there are so many engines, and each of them has their own supposedly revolutionary new SDK. Back in what I like to naively refer to as 'the day' modding tools were more frequently created by the people who then went and used them, whereas these days they're generally created by people who want to make money. This isn't necesarily a bad thing in every case because we end up getting to use some nice professional tools, but it does broaden the 'class divide' between developers and modders by making us more reliant on SDK releases [just look at the excitement and subsequent dissapointment over the L4D SDK].

Obviously a huge element of the problem is down to higher detail assets requiring more skill to create as has already been pointed out, but personally forsee this leading to an interesting divergience between developers and modders. There will of course be some modders who aspire to emulate the developers, but more and more I foresee veteran/passionate modders realising that it's more fun to work within the limits of older technology rather than try to keep up with the cutting edge, and often produces more artistically acomplished results. I think we all know that it's possible for a Quake 1, 2 or 3 map to surpass the artistic merit of something like UT3 using simple brushwork. So let the huge teams of professionals waste time and money trying to hide lazy brushwork behind HDR lighting and softfocus aftereffects, and we'll carry on producing work with real depth, integrity and individualism. 
Text_Fish 
Ouch.
Plenty of professionals are still making fine work in games...
And what was the dissapointment over the L4D sdk? (Other than it being hammer anyways, which IS originaly an amateur tool). 
Re: 172 
The crysis editor looks easy on the surface but there is a crazy amount of depth to the editor just lurking out of view. It is true that the designer no longer has to worry about brush creation and texturing but this has replaced with terrain modelling and painting instead. Creating hugely detailed chunks of terrain and painting in all the detail (even with stamp and decal systems) can take weeks to get right. Coupled with countless layers of AI and scripting on top of all this and the typical industry designer has moved away from jack of all trade to specific areas. This has become apparent when you see the work flow for modern engines. 
Bal 
I certainly didn't intend to cause offense, I suppose the meat of my argument in that respect is that professionals are constrained by money and the latest trends. I've no doubt that if left to their own devices there are many very talented professional environment artists, but then they're just modders like me.

L4D sdk was criticized for taking too long to be released despite most of the tools remaining pretty much unchanged from previous source SDKs. There was also criticism levelled at Valve for revealing L4D2 about a week after, thus raising fears that the L4D modding community would be split in two before it even had the chance to get going. Basically, Valve's 'business plan' cocked things up for the amateurs. I don't blame them because they are indeed a business, but it simply highlights a growing gap between professionals and hobbyists. 
It Seems 
Like it begings a kinda battle between people in industry and hobbiest.

As for me, my geographic location doesn't allow me to find my place in the industry.
Where the fuck is drunk thread?
Tools imo should have been modified by users anyway, since i've never seen a perfect editor that i don't want to change a little 
 
admittedly, i never created any full release in crysis, but even after messing with scripting and landscaping, it still felt like the process was smooth.

creating roads is little more than drawing the spline and everything else is pretty much automatic. plopping down trees is just a matter of defining which material should have them and in what density and size. after the automatic generation is done, you just go in and move/delete/resize whatever, but (and this is just a guess) it felt like 80% of the work was done automatically, which i felt was pretty awesome considering most of it is just filler stuff.

i remember a map in crysis where i had taken a jeep and drove in completely the wrong direction. you could tell that it hadn't really been touched by the level designer because there wasn't really a path or anything, no mobs, no structures.
i'm guessing that area was all pretty much auto generated. some stuff here and there that was busted, like a tree model a little out of the ground or something, yet it still looked great and for the most part, on par with the 'hand tweaked' areas that you were actually supposed to play in.

pulsar was asking about what i'd like to see in editors and it's definitely more of this kind of automation. i'd like to see procedural prop placement more often (which, i think is in rage? so maybe i get my wish) and the same goes for decals.
to the point where you basically say 'i want this hall way to be littered with garbage. here's the models, do it.' and then only have to touch up a few mistakes or anything specific i want to place.
i'd rather be designing the kick-ass ceiling details then placing bits of crap all over the floor.

it actually surprised me when i read that (i think it was carmack who said it?) rage may not really be moddable. not because they wouldn't provide tools, but because the amount of work would be so high as to discourage most people.
i'd like to think he was talking about PC or TC mods since looking at videos of the editor in use, it seems like, as long as you were using rage assets, it should be fairly easy to create good content for rage. (which is the direction i would expect content creation to move towards) 
Procedural Generation 
It seems to me that PG is a lot easier to implement when you aren't trying to create an otherworldly or "fantastic" environment. I'm biased, but I prefer games that occur in nonfamiliar settings. 
 
No, it just requires a different approach. There is that one indie game in development by one guy with a abstract fantasy theme, procedurally generated and it looks gorgeous. Actually I guess a "non-realistic" setting would be easier to generate as things may be weird without the brain saying "ugh, no, that's an error".

I don't know what kind of editors there are nowadays but for me something completely 3D where I simply paint everything would be best. With an option for exact modeling of course. 
80/20 Rule 
The crysis editor does indeed do alot of automatic stuff and is an awesome editor for creating quick prototypes and/or alpha/beta builds but there is always more to do. For example the roads have to be decal blended on the ends, the surface underneath correctly painted to produce the right vehicle wheel dirt colour and the precedurally generated random floor litter (rocks/plants) removed so vehicles dont do crazy wheel flips. The attention to detail is what consumes all the time nowadays and it will carry on regardless of how good the tools are.

The editors have indeed got alot better but all that time that is saved is just spent elsewhere, like creating background cutscenes, decal placements, AI tweaking and crazy scripting sequences. I remember when reaching beta (on warhead) we had a checklist of essential details that had to be done, which involved the correct plant type sets to use, canopy density rules, mountain silhouettes, re-painting the terrain because of gameplay tweaks, critter and particle ambience and the countless AI checks to do.

Alot of editors nowadays will take the developer a long way but the end 20% of level polish is still done by hand with many midnight hours burnt trying to create more and more detail to level environments. The icing on the cake is the final frame rate optimization, reducing types of models used, particle optimization, AI spawn/removal tweaks and flagging things for different specs etc.

I personally believe that the polish/quality gap between pro and hobby games has grown to such an extent that one man teams will struggle and even thou the editors do more they are not simple drag and drop stuff. That is what the marketing/hype want everyone to believe. 
 
It's hype but it's not. UnrealEd really does make creating levels in current tech pretty nice. Is it easy? No, but there's never going to be a "make cool level" button to click. You're always going to have to get involved in the minute details ... it's always been that way and always will be.

However, with advancements like Kismet (our graphical scripting system) levels can be made better with less effort and I think that's the real goal of modern tools. There's a ton of work to be done so try to make each aspect of it less painful with each iteration.

Material creation, asset browsing and scripting have all taken a major leap forward in the current Unreal tech. But I don't think we're ever going to get away from the level designer needing to sit at his desk and go over everything with a fine toothed comb to produce something shippable. 
 
So let the huge teams of professionals waste time and money trying to hide lazy brushwork behind HDR lighting and softfocus aftereffects, and we'll carry on producing work with real depth, integrity and individualism.

Translation: you have a year (or longer) to work on your map if you wish, with established tools and tech. Mr. Industry Professional has 1 week and half of what he needs isn't ready yet. 
Mr Fribbles 
I guess this is the main difference between a hobbyist that work on his project 5-6 hours a week, and a professional that works for his company project 10 hours a day, with milestones to respect, with commitment to the program, etc.. etc... and alos with the salary that comes with....

Or am I just that stupid that I didn't understand what is the difference between "gaming in the industry" and "gaming at home" ? 
Hahahaha 
Holy shit, quoting for truth:
Translation: you have a year (or longer) to work on your map if you wish, with established tools and tech. Mr. Industry Professional has 1 week and half of what he needs isn't ready yet.

@JPL, you got it. The point is that you can make your personal standard of quality (on your personal work) whatever you wish it to be, and spend however much time you want fixing every tiny thing you care to fix, and polish everything to a high-gloss mirror finish.

If you're being paid for something, then there are always limitations, whether that's from your supervisor, his supervisor, the company head, the publisher, whoever. Sometimes you have precisely X hours to spend on something, and you have to make difficult, sometimes agonizing decisions (or worse yet, have those decisions made for you) regarding what's going to get fixed, and what "almost no one will notice". *kills self*

It's very easy to sit back and curl your lip and talk about a lack of "work with real depth, integrity and individualism", but doing this for a profession is a whooole different vibe than doing it for a hobby. 
 
Yes, Fribbles has the right of it. When games are being developed you often have very little time to get the level done and often times you're dealing with code that was written the day before you started working with it.

The hobbyist receives a complete package dropped at his feet. It's not really the same thing. 
The Big Difference 
Is that if Mr hobbyist doesn't like a map then it goes in a scraps folder.

If Mr Industry Professional doesn't like a map then if he's lucky (and keeps his mouth shut) he can do a rework. Otherwise he finishes that crap or looks for another job.

Huge teams is a myth as well - you only ever have the bare minimum of resources for any given task.

Yes, T_F - nerves struck ;) 
Eh. 
**Shrugs**

Who doesn't love playing the victim from time to time? I'm glad I could oblige you all. :)

If I may just take a moment of your wound-licking time though, I would like to say that I honestly don't think any less of professional game developers as humans and do not for one moment question their skills. To the contrary, I feel we're all pretty much in agreement that the time and money constraints imposed upon you all are suffocating to your creativity through no fault of your own. I sympathise with your frustration, as I too have a job that was once merely a hobby, and it is soul destroying to feel your passion being sapped away little by little with every deadline and poorly concieved managerial decision. Ultimately though, very few people are lucky enough to do something they have even the remotest interest in for a living, so stay strong, and if the opportunity ever arises, stick it to 'the man' in a way that he'll never realise it was you.

**Beer** 
 
Oh, I wasn't really saying any of that. For my part, I was simply stating the reality that the professional is dealing with wet concrete and shifting designs while the hobbyist starts off running with a finished product filled with usable assets. That's all. :) 
Finished Q4 
I'll keep it short, pros and cons:

Pros:

Looks
Combat
Being part of a squad
Voice acting
Some inspired level design

Cons:

Minigames keep disrupting the immersion
Hyperlinear, absolutely dumb gameplay
Crappy arcade music
Monsters have potential, but aren't used well
Lack of ambient sounds (compare Doom3)
Huge, empty levels (especially 2nd half)
Plastic-y, toylike look and feel
No ambushes, highly predictable attacks


The repeated, forced vehicle rides and running around on a spaceship ruined the game for me, in the end. Sorry, I did not buy a podracer. I wanted an FPS.

I ended up cursing and godmoding through the vehicle sections to get back to the game. The problem was, the game is a total dictatorship. If you don't follow suit, some superior will shout at you to get your ass over to where he wants it to be.

There are no other options besides the objectives, either. You simply cannot do anything else in the game. There is only one way. This is also reflected in the level design, especially in the game's second half. What's there is designed to visually impress you (successfully, for sure), but has little practical value.

It's not a coincidence that when you're not on some vehicle, you're likely riding a lift or conveyor, and jumping off is punished by death.

Sigh.

To say something nice, though, the combat in the true FPS sections was all right. Being part of a squad also felt nice, but I think it could have been done way better. Fighting with the squad was the best part of the game. It's constantly disrupted by "cool" minigames though, and you're constantly ordered around with very little other things to do. 
Worth Buying? 
 
For The Visuals 
in the second half IMHO. 
But 
I buy games to play not to watch.

Regimented level design with irritating subsections inbetween . . .

It's a shame that most games are now designed b lawyers and accountants instead of games designers. 
Well I Found It Reasonably Fun 
to play too. 
Sure 
But there's thousands of games out there that are 'must play' so something needs to shout pretty loud to get my attention now.

Still need to play the Thief series, for example. 
 
if you haven't played the thief games, then i'd say you'd better off getting those instead. way more fun and original than quake4. the graphics might not be great these days though. and i dont know if they play with vista or new video cards. 
Vista 
Basically its only installers that have a problem - but then the thing can be installed on another machine and just copied over.

In any case, I'd still need to find time to play - and my time will soon be mostly spent on nappies. 
Q4 
I liked it quite a lot, but I think it is a fair criticism. The vehicle parts were shoe-horned in and the whole thing was totally on rails - unlike the more exploratory feeling hub system of Q2 itself. The general Q2 vibe was good, as were the monsters, it did seem to be a case of modern "interactive movie" gaming spoiling the fun of simple old gaming. But still good IMO. 
Ijed 
Worth buying as a budget title, yes.

Worth playing -

yes, for the few really good levels, and for educational purposes.

It's a fast playthrough, too. Two evenings max.

Thief is worthy, so is Tomb Raider 2. 
 
Quake 4 is nice. I played 1-2 weeks. The vehicle sequences suck badly. Much better than Q2 to me. Best plain scifi FPS since Half-Life (I guess) for me. 
 
And I played it 2 times since. 
I Found Quake 4 
to be an excellent compromise between Old School shooty fun and New School gimmickry [vehicles/scripted moments/etc]. I think if Raven had taken it fully in to the 21st Century it would have lost its Quakeyness. 
 
I have it for the 360. It's boring as all hell. I can't get into it. The maps are small and the vehicle thing is lame at best.

It had potential but Raven dropped the ball on this one. 
 
I like scripted sequences, like a marine getting his head smashed into a window by a Strogg. That's cool with me. But you can have scripted sequences in a less linear game, too. 
 
I sometimes prefer linearity, sometimes not.

I tend to finish linear games much rather. Never finished Fallout, Fallout 2 and Albion. Even though they are great games, I could not finish them by not knowing how to proceed.

Quake 4 is a nice game for people who like straight FPS. 
I'm Also 
a fan of supposed 'linearity' in games. In my experience non-linear games tend to be full of quite boring missions that involve lots of walking to and from fairly arbitrary locations to pick up items or kill copy/pasted enemies. Fair enough, maybe you can choose which mission to do at any given time, but seeing as most of the time all of the missions are boring/repetitive/pointless, I'd much rather have one long exciting mission that will hold my attention for the duration of the game. 
Finished It ! 
Well, the game is pretty descent: there are very good visuals here and there, nice gameplay, but the game improves itself after stroggification.

The end battle in the nexus is quite easy when you have understood what to do... and that you can simply ignore the monsters at the bootom, and just get rid of the others onto the platform... I was expecting something harder...

Anyway, overaal, the game is good. If I have to rate it I would give it 16/20... (I would compare it to Doom3, with more lights :P )

Now I have to buy a new PC if I want to play new games (L4D, QuakeLive, etc...) 
QuakeLive 
shouldn't really requite a new computer, ts just quake 3 kinda and made browserfied 
Linearity 
non-linear games tend to be full of quite boring missions

That may be the case if the actual game-mechanics suck and it isn't even fun to do stuff in the world. 
 
I�m playing Q4 at the moment and i�m having great fun also :) loved the part when we were defeated and tranformed in half men half strog... the rail gun is a fun blast :p 
 
That may be the case if the actual game-mechanics suck and it isn't even fun to do stuff in the world.

I'd love some examples. For my part, I guess I've only played the very mainstream 'non-linear' games, like GTA, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Boiling Point, etc. all of which have a few very good missions, diluted by hundreds of dull "follow this NPC without getting spotted" or "kill twenty rats" ones. 
 
Just finish the game today!!!

The Nexus :) nice ending!!!

I enjoy the game a lot, but i still prefer old stile games, with swards and medieval stuff

Not worth to waste my time for map for it� but is much better then Q2 
 
Just finish the game today!!!

The Nexus :) nice ending!!!

I enjoy the game a lot, but i still prefer old stile games, with swards and medieval stuff

Not worth to waste my time for map for it� but is much better then Q2 
 
double post suck hard :\ 
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