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Mapping Help
This is the place to ask about mapping problems, techniques, and bug fixing, and pretty much anything else you want to do in the level editor.

For questions about coding, check out the Coding Help thread: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60097
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ISSUE FIXED!!!!!!! :) 
I FIXED IT!!!!!!!! I'M SOOOO HAPPY I COULD CRY!!!!!!!!!!!

ATI driver coders need a good spanking. Turns out I needed an old version of the atioglxx.dll in the WC or Hammer directory, because I have the drivers, which mess WC and Hammer up totaly!!!

Well, that was a fun 5 or so hours. Thnx for your help.


P.S. Here is where I found a number of people with the same problem as me: http://www.chatbear.com/unity2/12/913,1188737745,4371/1054507/20?v=flatold 
Wow, That's Cool 
I encountered this hammer/drivers bug before, and I know I'm not the only one on here who has. But the only solution I could offer was to regress to a much older version of the drivers. I'm gonna go test this dll out right now, see if it works here... 
Old Drivers Is Key 
Unfortunately, the best solution IS to roll back to old Catalyst drivers. Get hold of Catalyst 7.9, because 7.1 Catalyst drivers still dont work with WC or Hammer.

There is a price you will pay. With the 7.9 Ati drivers, the native windows version of Dark Places WILL NOT WORK, so you will have to use the SDL port.

Dont you just love all this messing about? You have to spend like a day sorting sh*t like this out before you can even sit down and mod. It's still fun though :). 
Hmm 
Maybe I'll just stick with the old 5.12 drivers then, if it ain't broke... 
The OTHER Solution 
use wc1.6a like me, running in unaccelerated mode. It's pretty slow, and for some reason I have to disable then reenable catalyst AI to get the 2d window performance to not be utterly shit, but it does the job (just about...)

I haven't had any problems running the source version of hammer btw. 
More Worldcraft Annoyances 
Everytime I add a new custom entity in worldcraft, I cant compile and run my map, because I get a whole bunch of errors, the core error being:

[code]Error opening C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\game development\game projects\fire line mod\fire_line\maps\test1.bsp: No such file or directory[/code]

I added a custom entity in wolrdcraft called "ambient_sound", but I everytime I try to add any sort of custom entity, I get the same problem. Note that I'm adding this entity in WorldCraft, and I'm not adding anything to the FGD file.

I'm not sure if I need to even fiddle around with the FGD just yet, because what I do is I simply add some default entity > right click on it's properites > go to it's class name > type in my own entity that corresponds to the one I coded in QC > add the needed keys and values. I would like to know if I'm doing anything wrong.

Any advice on this would be great. thnx. 
Worldcrafty 
I'm not sure if I need to even fiddle around with the FGD just yet, because what I do is I simply add some default entity > right click on it's properites > go to it's class name > type in my own entity that corresponds to the one I coded in QC > add the needed keys and values. I would like to know if I'm doing anything wrong.
This sounds like the correct procedure, I do this all the time, which is why Quoth has no fgd file...

So I suspect the problem lies elsewhere. Can you confirm that the bsp file in the error message does exist. I remember having problems with Hammer(the newer worldcraft) when trying to read/write to directories with spaces in the path. Perhaps try working in something like c:\quake\fire_line\ and see if that makes a difference.

The only other thing I can think of now is that you are selecting a different mod configuration than usual, like "fire_line" instead of "quake". This might cause a problem if you've omitted one of the settings which allow quake maps to compile correctly. If you are, and you want to test this, open your rmf file and select "quake" from the mod selection dialogue. Then try compiling it like a regular quake map, and copying it into your mod directory to test. 
The BSP Exists 
The bsp exists when it gets compiled, but that only works if I have no custom entities...And I dont think that my directory structure is a problem, because it works in every other case, except this one :(, lol

The thing is that I'm using the default Quake configuration, and the map compiles fine WITHOUT the custom entity KEY VALUES. For example, even if I have the custom entity in my map, called ambient_sound, without any values, it compiles and runs just fine. But the moment I add in new keys, like soundfile, volume, speed, etc, I get the error.

Now, I did try one other thing, and that is exporting my map as a .MAP and using the hmap2.exe (tool from the DarkPlaces client, very good, used mostly for colored lighting), but even there I get an error (along the lines of "data missing in entity bracket"). Even there it works fine, as long as I dont have any key values for my custom entity.

I tried to google this, but I couldnt find any way or any tutorial on how to actualy add custom entites to WorldCraft and use them correctly, besides having to hack around in in the FGD file. 
 
"I do this all the time, which is why Quoth has no fgd file... "

*grumble*

:) 
 
On topic, there aren't any other errors? Usually when QBSP can't generate a BSP file, it says why. I can't imagine it's a Worldcraft issue or that massaging the FGD file will help. QBSP doesn't care about entity class names. 
Why Not 
Write the entity into the FGD? It's very easy to do and takes five minutes.

Probably won't help with your problem though.

First time I've heard that one and I've been using WC / Hammer for quite a while now.

Almost sounds like it's compiling somewhere else that your launched version of Quake can't access - as if -game whatever isn't there.

But if it compiles without the custom entity then I don't know. 
Total Wierdness 
Yeah, that's the interesting bit. Like I said, it compiles just fine without the keys and key values for a custom entity, even if the custom entity is there. I even tried adding the custom entity as a pointclass in the FGD after trying all other things, and it still doesnt work.

Maybe it's something stupidly simple I'm overlooking. 
Odds On 
You'll get bored with the problem, go have a drink, come back to the PC and the solution will be staring you in the face. Sod's law. 
 
Lol, yeah. I'm boring you guys with these little agreviating problems :P. Porblably gonna go and play some game soon, or watch some dvd or something. 
 
but even there I get an error (along the lines of "data missing in entity bracket")

can you maybe do the export to .map thing and then open the .map file and CnP the bit with the custom entity here? it sounds like WC isn't writing the entity correctly. i wouldn't be able to solve the problem if that was the case, but at least you'd know what was causing it. :S

maybe find the relevant bit in the vmf (or is it rmf? not sure) file as well for a CnP here too. 
Bits... 
Bits from the .map file:

{
"classname" "ambient_sound"
"volume" "1"
"speed" "1"
"soundfile" ""ambience/suck1.wav""
"origin" "192 -128 -64"
}


bits from the .rmf file:

CMapEntity
[some bits of file that cant be copied]
ambient_sound[some bits of file that cant be copied]
volume[some bits of file that cant be copied]
speed[some bits of file that cant be copied]
soundfile[some bits of file that cant be copied]
"ambience/suck1.wav"[some bits of file that cant be copied]

I hope that gives you a better overview of the problem. 
 
"soundfile" ""ambience/suck1.wav&quo...

apart from the end of that line that got garbled, notice there's a double " at the start of the key's value.

that would definitely mess things up but i think in this case, it's the .map exporter messing up because i don't see the "" in the rmf clipping.

so... i guess that didn't help at all, sozz :S 
Door Issue 
I have a small issue (I'm using Quoth BTW): I'd like a GK door to start closed, then to open with the gold key, but later I'd like to close it in order to force the player to use another way to the exit. I tried using the toggle field, but unfortunately it does not work... any idea ? 
 
A hacky way might be to have a copy of the door in the same location that starts open. Then trigger it closed when you need it. If the doors are textured the same it shouldn't result in any noticeable z-fighting or anything. 
Well 
instead of a copy of the door, you could just do like bars or something (or a different door in roughly the same spot) to make it look less cheesy. 
 
"(or a different door in roughly the same spot)"

Right, that's basically what I was saying. A second door that closes but looks like it was the original door. 
Willem / Necros 
OK, I understand the idea: thanks for the tip ;) 
Bold Prog 
I'm searching for a way to use the thunderbold flash for some kind of event, but I can only come up with the chtong hack, ie using it in a map with no doors. 
How Do I Set The Angle On A Dead-body Notnull? 
also is there a way of putting a clip brush that only effect monsters? Where did I hear mon_clip or monclip? 
 
There is no monster-only clipping in Quake1. I think that came in during Quake2. There are 2 clipping hulls in Quake maps and everything uses them equally. 
I Feared As Much.... 
oh well. thanks anyway! 
Setting Angles 
If you set the angles key directly it should work, give it
pitch yaw roll

Also, isn't there a hacky way to emulate monsterclip using clip brushes as part of a func_wall? You need a regular brush tied to the same entity to make it valid, which you hide inside level geometry. Then the clip parts don't impede player movement/physics objects, but some glitch makes them count for monster navigation. Anyone remember what I'm talking about here? 
 
i think clip brushes in func_s do stop player movement. i'm pretty sure i tried that once, but it was a long time ago 
Monster Clip.... 
one trick is to put holes or gaps in the floor, which are too small for the player to fall through. The monsters use hull0 for navigation, so they will think they can't cross those gaps. 
Tested Monsterclip 
The monsterclip by func_wall I posted above does work, but since it's a hack there are some big pitfalls. So far I've found:

* Physical movement by a monster is not blocked. Examples of this include fiends(etc...) leaping, and monsters dropping from mid-air onto the monsterclip.

* If a monster is stepping (that is to say changing height because the ground in front is slightly higher or lower) at the same point which it hits the monsterclip, it will penetrate it.

Although in some of these cases it sounds reasonable for the monster to enter the clipping brush, once one gets in, they are stuck as if they were spawned inside a wall. The fiend can escape by jumping again, but is still glitchy otherwise. So unless you use it sparingly, only in situations where these things can't occur, it's probably wise to avoid it.

Perhaps a good solution would be made QC-side. I've got an inkling of how it could be done in a clean manner, but I'd need to mess around a bit with it. 
My Bad 
i could have swore i had built an old school ladder that moved out of a func_door. 
Help 
fire brigade! 
Hmm 
Possibly not the best plan if your house is actually burning down. Phone would probably be quicker... 
 
phone was the course... 
Invisible Func_wall 
With a trigger next to it that killtargets it when touched by player - who'll never even know it was there.

That's assuming you don't need the thing to permanently block monster movement.

In Quoth it'd be a togglewall, or you could use a skipped func_wall, or else a clip brushed func_wall which has visible brushes on the extents. I mean visible as in not clip texture, embedded in geometry, with the functional centre being clip. 
Killtargetting A Func_wall 
Isn't that going to block lots of other important things though, like projectiles, and light of sight checks made by monsters? 
Yes 
But it's another solution. It could also be only 32 units high, which wouldn't block much, though would look wierd if it, with, say, a grenade.

Otherwise the holey floor would work as long as the monsters weren't jumping or flying. Or swimming ;) 
Ideas 
You could always use a clip wall with small regular brushes textured with skip at the extremes to stop it being glitchy and then kill it when the player gets close. That should work ok whilst allowing line of sight checks to work and projectiles to pass through.

Personally though, I prefer the tip posted by Metl, which I used in a couple of maps in the past - maybe even as far back as apsp1. I like that it doesn't block them movement of jumping or flying monsters, since I will typically want to use it to hold a sniper in place somehow. I may have actually made a small demo map to demonstrate this quirk of clipped brushmodels some time ago, so I will see if I can find it tonight.

Another way that requires no entities and will stop strict walking (no jump attack) monsters is to create a small break in the floor where you want them to stop. Monsters often have problems with floors that have a lot of holes in such as gratings because they do some kind of line of sight check to make sure there is ground below them. When there isn't, they won't keep moving forward. I think the crack only needs to be 16 units wide for it to work, though it needs to be a bit deeper than that. You could then cover the crack up with a func_illusionary if you wanted, though that is not neccessary, and would obviously look shit if a grenade fell in the crack.

Other suggestions include using a trigger monsterjump to fire the monster back very slightly (it may be worth experimenting with speed and angles here) or just embedding it slightly in the wall, which requires no extra entities but is a bit hacky and might not work in all engines.

All of these tips should work in vanilla quake. 
Sorry 
didn't notice metl had already posted the tip about using a gap in the floor. 
Sorry 
didn't notice metl had already posted the tip about using a gap in the floor. 
Also Sorry For The Doublepost And... 
it was preach who posted the tip I said I like, not metl. Here are some links about the tip:

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=37116&start=84 (my post about this tip)

http://than.quaddicted.com/files/invisBarrier.7z < the broken link was moved here...

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=4&start=5611 (preach's previous post on this tip)

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=37116&start= (tips and tricks thread... full of useful tips)

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=37116&start=107 (monsterclip trick by preach... a bit scary sounding :) 
Monsterclip: Ffs 
trigger_monsterjump with low values - height 10, speed 10. if you want it killable, use the info_notnull hack. 
 
"trigger_monsterjump with low values - height 10, speed 10. if you want it killable, use the info_notnull hack."

That's interesting. Can anyone think of why this wouldn't work? The monster might get stuck in a perpetual state of falling or something. 
But 
monsters still go through their attack routine whatever state they are in I think. if they are being flung through the air I think they still attack.

Not 100% on that though. 
 
The problem you'd have though, I think, is that the monster will never get the message. Sure, they'd be rejected by the jump trigger but that will never get them to change their route. They'll just run into the trigger forever, looking retarded. 
Necros: 
i think clip brushes in func_s do stop player movement. i'm pretty sure i tried that once, but it was a long time ago

clip brushes in funcs work correctly, as long as they are inside the bounding box of the visible part of the func. Quake (stupidly) doesn't bother doing collision detection against other entities when those entities are outside the visible part of the func. 
Monsterjump 
Does work, I forgot that one.

I think I used it with 0 vert ~5 horiz once. 
Does The Info_intermission (?) 
or whatever it is (the cameras for the scores between levels), er, do they take up room in the signon buffer? 
Buffers For Shoes 
The client doesn't know about them, because they don't have a model set, so they aren't transmitted between levels.

If you are having trouble with your signon buffer being too large, the easiest thing to reduce is the number of entities which have a model set at time zero. Static entities count towards this limit, but the only thing you can do about them is remove some.

It's worth noting that things which have modelindex != 0 do in fact count towards this total. I managed to discover this when I tried updating the quoth code to use this code for teleporting monsters:
http://inside3d.com/showtutorial.php?id=171
The line of code which hides the monster:
self.model = "";
is not enough to stop the monster being sent in the signon buffer, and consequently ne_marb started overflowing. If anybody uses that tutorial, it is advised to add
self.modelindex = 0; just after that, a trick which triggers already use.

I suspect though that the map which is hitting the limit is already a quoth map, and so you can't code your way out of it. In which case, I can suggest one or two entity hacks which might save you...


The first suggestion I have is to make some entities spawn later than they usually would, so they are sent in an update after the signon buffer. The candidate I'm thinking of is a func_wall, which is relatively safe to use. But be warned that it should not be done in the following cases:

* If anything is going to spawn on top of the func_wall
* If the func_wall is using an external model in quoth which wouldn't be spawned otherwise
* if there's some other reason that it needs to be in place from the start - don't worry about the player seeing it

Ok, so that's the plan, here's how we do it:

Change the classname of the func_wall to a info_notnull (hello old friend!). Give it the following keys:

self.nextthink = 0.2;
self.think = func_wall;

Can you guess what it does? It uses the fact that classnames are also functions ( http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=4&start=7981&end=7981 ) so that the func_wall initialisation is actually run as a think function just after the signon buffer is sent.


If you can't get enough mileage out of doing this on func_walls, you could look at doing it to other entities. Complex things like doors are probably a bad idea because the parts of the door have to link. You have to be careful that the spawn function doesn't do anything like precaching sounds or models, and you can't do it with static entities - they MUST be in the signon buffer.

Quoth is a bit more forgiving in this regard, as long as the model required has been precached by something during worldspawn, the actual attempt to precache it again later on is suppressed by the code. So you could do this trick on monsters for example - but then why not just give them the silent and teleporter flags, and teleport them in a second after the map spawns? It avoids using a hack to do it, and that bug about the signon buffer above has been caught and fixed ;-). 
Preach 
You are a legend, but allas - 'tis too late!

No fault of your own though, obviously, its just that i have weakened and folded.... 
Preach 
the stuff i've seen you do without modifying a single line of code is godly.

been meaning to say that for a bit now... 
 
I agree and echo the sentiment, Preach. Your level of knowledge in the area of Quake is incredible. Thanks for always being so willing to help with questions and being so eager to share. 
Heh 
See, I've been meaning to make a post on exactly the opposite thing - how to code things in such a way to defend against mappers hacking them.

Would people like to read that, or is denying people the fun of entity hacking just too much? 
 
I guess it depends. What would be your reasoning for preventing hacks? 
Versioning 
If you are making a mod which lots of mappers are going to use, but which isn't final - you may release a new version of this mod in the future, then you have to worry that all of the old maps will work in your new version. In an ideal world all you would need to maintain is the advertised features in your documentation.

Of course, the documentation of what you intended is never finished, and it can be hard enough just maintaining things as you add new code (see: quoth 2.0). If people start using "unadvertised features" in maps, then you can get stuck. You would like to make some change to something you thought was internal, but that will actually break the hack in some existing map.

So I guess the message here is that performing hacks in maps for id1 progs is basically safe because there won't ever be another patch for quake, 1.08 is the end. Since it's going to be unchanging, you can get away with a lot more. With a mod that might in the future. With a mod that might come out with a new version, you probably should colour inside the lines for the most part.

In my defence for suggesting the func_wall trick, it is actually surprisingly hard to break with a mod, since the features it uses (think, nextthink, classname) are all hardcoded engine behaviours. The only thing you could really do to wreck it is change info_notnull to set think/nextthink(which seems pointless for an entity designed to do nothing) or change func_wall to do something that isn't safe after worldspawn like precaching things. So I think it's safe to say that will work in future Quoth versions. 
 
Oh, honestly, I think you're off the hook there. I know about best intentions and all but if someone is leveraging a bug or a hack in your mod that you haven't documented and that breaks in the next version - so sorry, but oh well.

That's not an unreasonable position to take. Use the documented features only or risk getting burned. That's totally fair.

And, really, I'd rather have the freedom that the hacks provide rather than mod authors going through the work to lock everything down. 
Yeah Preach - You Shouldn't Worry About It 
because the person who is making the dodgy hacked map has a copy of the original progs he was using anyway, so if a later version breaks the hack then the player/mapper just has to roll back his version.

And you guys have catered for that by releasing the individual parts of quoth, upgrade by upgrade... 
Defending Against Hacks 
It's reassuring to hear that, I'll worry less about people hacking. As a future warning, don't hack anything to do with path_corners in quoth, they don't work like they used to in quake, and they are going to change...

Even so, I'm gonna post how you do it anyway, because at the bottom there are two alternate applications of the ideas. And also because the second way in here is a really cool trick that I've never seen anyone post about before.


So if you do want to defend against a hack, what can you do? Well, to my knowledge there are three ways of defending against things, from the very specific to the very general. Even if you don't think you'd want to actively prevent a hack in your code, you might find some useful information at the bottom of the post about making entities more friendly to modification while maintaining sensible defaults.

If you are concerned about somebody putting an unhelpful value in one specific fields for a specific entity, then the way to prevent it is simply to set that field during the spawn function to a correct value. For example, if you have a monster which gets enraged after firing 10 missile attacks, and you count the shots fired so far in self.shotcount, you probably don't want people to be able to set .shotcount to 10 so that the monster is enraged straight away, so you can add

self.shotcount = 0;

in the spawnfunction. Although it sounds like a trivial thing there, you can prevent people from giving your entity a use function(assuming it normally lacks one) with

self.use = SUB_Null;

You could even preempt people making your entity shootable and killable by forcing

self.takedamage = 0;
self.th_die = SUB_Null;

...although some people might call that paranoid. This method is in a sense exclusive, you chose which fields you are going to prevent being set. If you start doing too much of this stuff, you should instead look at the third suggestion.


The second idea is one I've never really used because the idea only just came to me after discovering a light.exe feature. Rather than preventing people from custom-setting one field in a particular entity, this one lets you prevent a person setting the field in ANY entites. A good example of something that might warrant this protection is .super_damage_finished . The super_damage_finished field makes an attacking entity do quad damage so long as the map time is less than its super_damage_finished value. It's a bit of an ugly hack using that to get monsters with deadly weapons.

The fix is to rename the field to begin with an underscore, like _super_damage_finished. Any field which starts with an underscore gets stripped from an entity as it is loaded by the engine. This is intended so that light tools could read extra fields on lights, which had sensible names preceeded by underscores. These fields then wouldn't cause warnings if the qc omitted their definition. What we are doing is flipping that, creating a field which is only used by the qc and never from the map, rather than always by the map(via tools) and never in the qc.

For those of you who are c++/java fluent, I've come to think of this trick as creating public and private fields on entities(with respect to the map loading). 
Defending Against Long Posts 
If you want to go further in the other direction, protecting almost all of the fields on a specific class of entity, then there is a pattern you can use in your spawn-function:

void() func_protected =
{
local entity template;
precache_sound ("misc/whine.wav");
template = self;
// we spawn a new entity with all fields blank
self = spawn();
self.classname = "func_protected";

//at this point you copy across all the fields you do want to inherit from the mapper
self.model = template.model;
self.health = template.health;
//...
//then you perform the setup on self as you would expect, eg:

setmodel(self,self.model);
//...
//finally, get rid of the template, since it is no longer needed
remove(template);
}

This gives you complete control on what can be set on your entity.


Although you may not see the need to do this for the reason of protecting an entity, there is a related construction which is more useful. Suppose you have a mod where several "rounds" of a game are played without the map restarting, but you want to reset the arena between rounds. How do you handle resetting something like a breakable wall, which may or may not have been destroyed during the round?

Method 1 would be to have a reset function which desperately tries to reset to zero all of the fields which might have been changed during the previous round on the wall. If it was destroyed, then the model field has probably been cleared, so you will need to store that information somewhere else, and you'll need to recall it's starting health from .max_health, and there are tons of things that could go wrong.

Method 2 is to use adapt the func_protected example above. The original entity placed by the mapper remains entire unchanging for the whole game, and we call this the "template". We split the above spawn function into two parts:
- the bit which precaches all the resources, which will run at worldspawn
- the bit which makes a new entity, copies the required info from the template, and sets it up

The latter function is called every time a new round starts, after the entity from the previous round has been removed. You should of course delete the line which removes the template from this version of the function!

(for c++/java people, this is a quake kinda way for doing the factory paradigm)


Finally, the flip side to the first method of protecting things(one field for a particular entity) is how to make a field customisable while still having a sensible default. Here are some methods for making the health of a shootable func_crate alterable (default:45), from the most common to the most bizzare:

if(!self.health)
self.health = 45;

This just takes the case that the mapper has set nothing, and makes it 45. We could fairly easily improve this to also perform a sanity check for negative health:

if(self.health <= 0)
self.health = 45;

We might instead decide to add whatever value of self.health is set by the mapper to 45.

self.health = self.health + 45;

This will still maintain the default at 45, but it's probably less sensible than the above methods in this case, as it would be confusing. There might be cases other than health where it would be a more sensible way. 
WTF, You Double Agent! 
First you lead us to the dark side of the progs, now you advertise methods of preventing the use of hacks... I can't map without them!

But yeah, mod/version conflicts are a potential problem indeed. Take the differences in model/precache handling in Quoth 1 and 2 for example. I had to come up with a crude way of progs detection in my 768 map in order to make the backpacks in the end arena appear correctly in each version. 
Didn't You Understood ? 
Preach is working for an antivirus program provider company: those guys are hackers one day, and the other they sell you the latest update of their tool... swindler !!! 
 
is it possible to teleport weapons in ID1? 
Nope 
 
Hah 
Didn't stop the Reaperbot... impossible CHEATAR! 
 
I have a map file for quake that I have created with Hammer. I would like to continue working on this map using the QuakeED editor. Is there a tool to convert the map file to the right format? 
 
Hammer. :P 
Do You Mean 
.map? there's an export to .map option in hammer. 
 
The exported map is in a different format. Aguirres tools can handle it but other editors can't I guess. 
Valve 220 Texture Data 
 
Yeah 
It's a pain in the nuts.

Export to .map and use a notepad++ find / replace function?

Probably a long shot though. 
Hm 
possibly try using aguire's map converter utility? if you pass the .map through without actually doing anything, maybe it'll strip out the extraneous data when it parses the file? 
Just Checked 
Between the two and it wouldn't work - not only is there more data, but its also rearranged, and alot of it is single numbers.

Convmap might be worth a shot, yeah, otherwise I'd suggest just continuing with WC for now. 
Func_door - Ignore Enroach? 
Is there a way to get a func_door to close regardless of what it's hitting? Say I want 2 doors to crush anything passing between them - at the moment, the one door immediately retreats back it's starting position while the other works as normal.

Is this fixable? 
Only Way 
is to set:

'wait' '-1'
'toggle' '1'
and manually retrigger to close after opening. 
 
isn't there a "crusher" flag that prevents doors from reopening on impact? 
Not For Normal Quake? 
 
 
The crusher flag is called "dmg" and should prevent the door from reopening if the value is high enough. And if not, give both doors the same "team" field. 
 
The "team" field didn't seem to work. The "dmg" is set at 10,000 so that should be high enough.

I dunno, I added a new spawnflag (SF_CRUSHER) and added a quick IF condition to the "door_blocked" function. That seemed to do it. 
Crusherflag 
Necros had it right first time about the crushing behaviour, it comes from setting wait to a negative number. Quoth the source(door_blocked):

// if a door has a negative wait, it would never come back if blocked,
// so let it just squash the object to death real fast
if (self.wait >= 0)
{
if (self.state == STATE_DOWN)
door_go_up ();
else
door_go_down ();
}

So as long as self.wait is less that 0 the door doesn't change direction. 
QMLE 
After several bumps in Quake modelling I won't get used to the fact a modelframe exported to dxf has a unique vertice and trianglecount.

It may be my poor knowledge of triangles and vertices but when I import this file in another editor and try to export them back to Qmle the vertices turn out higher and triangles are doubled.

I know it has something to do with triangles turned into quads and vice versa, but why doesn't these counts stay the same?
I don't add anything so that can't be the reason.
Is it the 8bit configuration, and nowadays 3Dstudio's 16 or 32bit? 
Don't Think So 
I've never had the issue, to be honest, but many do.

If you're working with editable poly then the 7 key isn't showing you a valid vertice / face count - change to mesh while working and the number practically doubles.

As a typical safety thing I'd export the model, open it, select all verts and do a weld within a distance of 0 then export and see if it opens.

If not then the model is bad from the start - having a vertex spike, multiple vertices in the same position etc. 
No Clue 
you're using 3ds max? make sure when you export that you only export the mesh.

3dsmax will export your bones as geometry without telling you. these may not show up if you import the frame alone into qme3.1 (ie: when they're inside the character mesh), but they will change the vertex/face count preventing you from combining the frame with the original model.

it's important to note that the reason it does this is because bones actually are just geometry. in fact, you can make your own bones out of boxes, spheres, splines, etc. the bones that max makes just have a premade shape to make it easier.

this also means that adding bones will increase the polycount in max's built in counter, so you should completely ignore that counter.

i've successfully used both custom rigs and biped in quake, so keep at it and check everything because it is possible. 
Paradigm Shift 
&startI'd really suggest that you start by not thinking of the .mdl format as the best container for your model. mdl format is not a robust way to store information about a 3D model, so you're always going to run into problems with this kind of thing. Repeated saving to .mdl while making changes can make the vertices wobble more than they need to, etc, although we love them because they render in quake engines we must accept mdl is bad.
(see also: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60097=155&end=180 onwards)

The way I think of it now is that you make your model in another editor, in a better format like .max (substitute a format of choice for the rest of this post), and then EXPORT to .mdl right at the end of the editing process. If I then decide that I want to add another animation to that model, I chuck out the .mdl format copy that currently exists, make the changes in the .max version, then export the .mdl again.

It's usually helpful if your pipeline to convert from .max format to .mdl is short and hands-off, you don't want to have to rotate/reflect/move the model at all during this process, in case you need to do it many times. Adding stuff like skins is a bit of a hassle, and you certainly don't want to be changing animations! Ideally, you don't even need to open the mdl during the conversion process, just export and then drop it in your progs directory. This might require a bit of trial and error in your main editor to get the model correctly scaled and rotate in game, which again is easier once the pipeline is short.

The problem often arises at the starting point, if you're trying to modify an existing .mdl file. It can be tempting to just keep working with the .mdl format, because it's "practically there" already. Even so, I think it's best to just import the model into .max format right at the start of the project, and make sure it matches up when you export it again. From there you can edit as normal.

(This post brought to you by 3DMax Studio, a piece of software Preach doesn't even own...) 
Mdl 
Ijed - I supose you're working in Max3d? As long as I use Qmle and Quark4.07 nothing goes wrong, but I'm tightened to only use manupulating tools like vetice change and rotating. Every output like the Qmle's dxf, or Milkshape's 3ds are the only way to keep the model clear. If I import to Max3D I haven't got the knowhow yet to even ad bones.

Necros - As I said I'm using the Am2000 studio I bought because it is the one that uses mdl files. Bad enough it is an other extentions then Ol'Quake uses. But it can import the dxf/3DS files. If it would be the creepy bone addon count I can't imagine 12 bones with 5 counterparts would end up in a double vertice count.
There the thing goes wrong and I can't get a grip on it.
Exporting them to one poly by count brings me the same model in QMLE, but I cant get up to the double verticecount.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/am2005.jpg

Preach - I'm trying in the Max3D studio, but as I have hardly experience with it I can't make a thing of it. Max3D can't import mdl files I thought? I tried most extentions for in and export but I don't know how that double layer triangles appears. 
Pathway 
Ok, here's the pipeline I work with in gmax, and I'm pretty sure that it can be replicated in max3d.

Import:

MDL
use QMe to save it as
MD2
import into 3dsmax ( http://host-a.net/getfile.php?usern=Game_Genius&file=md2Importer.ms is a plugin for this step, which I haven't tried out)
MAX

I'm pretty sure that the mdl->md2 conversion doesn't do any harm, since in theory this conversion can be done exactly. If it turns out I'm wrong and it does wobble the vertices more, I'll probably write a quick program to do the conversion in this direction without the wobble. (*)

Export

MAX
export to MD3(there are loads of plugins which do this)
MD3
convert to MDL(I used to use quark for this, but since it's a pain to get working, I wrote http://www.btinternet.com/~chapterhonour/md3tomdl.zip for this step)
MDL

And the job is done.
_________________________
(*) I've moved the whole technical discussion from this post into a footnote. Ok, here's the deal with MD2. It still compresses vertex coordinates into a single byte like MDL, but the scale factor is slightly different. Instead of having one scale factor for the entire model, like quake 1 does, MD2 has a scale vector per frame. This gives you more control, but is often counterproductive.

For example, you might look at your source model, calculate the bounding box of the vertices in each frame, and then use the corresponding scale per frame. This affords you as fine a grain resolution as one byte can carry in each frame. The problem is that it can create much greater "floaty vertex syndrome", because the grid that all of your vertices snap to is changing every frame. If you had a sequence where the arm of your character waves, but the body remains mostly still, then the body ends up wobbling as the extent of the arm is changing the size of the bounding box.

It could be argued that the MDL method has an equally bad problem, that vertices can end up not moving at all from one frame to the next if the movements are slight. But I'd disagree on two points there. One is that the motion is more regular in time for MDL, stop-starts is compensated for by the brain better than random noise is. The other is that MDL motion is more controlled in space - if the head is just bobbing up and down during this wave animation, the vertices won't move left to right in the MDL. However, if the arm is changing the width of the bounding box in MD2 then the head might wobble from side to side, and the rounding effect might even make vertices go in opposite directions as the grid changes, some left, so right (or worse, some up and some down!)

If you agreed with me, then you might try and write a more sophisticated MD2 exporter. It could first look through all the frames in a sequence, and try to create groups of frames where the bounding box stays within 10% of the max in the group. Then it would use the same bounding box for that whole group. You might even relate bounding box changes to the amount of movement in the whole model, rather than just changes in the limits.

In any case, I've been a bit dishonest there contrasting MDL to MD2 because you can exactly replicate MDL behaviour with an MD2. Just set the same scale in every frame in the model! This is why during the import, it should be safe to convert from MDL to MD2, no information should be lost. Of course, going the other way you can't get an exact replica of every MD2 as a MDL, which is why we have MD3 as the intermediate format in that direction. 
Typo 
I've moved the whole technical discussion from this post into a footnote.

should in fact read:

I've moved the whole technical discussion from this post into Appendix A. 
Interesting, 
my approach is:

MDL
QME3.1 -> export .dxf frame.
Import .dxf into MAX

*animation stuff here*

Export all frames as .dxf
QME3.1 -> batch import frames 
Pac 
thanks for the mdl importer, Preach. I'm not familiar with max as I'm just learning the basic lessons. I'll try them out!

I never had the idea to make the files mdl2 or mdl3. I do use the old q2mdlr9b which can import and export Q1 /2 files. 
Hmm 
I seem to remember that, but it brings back memories of the mdl exporting not being 100% reliable, and it isn't an ideal tool for creating animations in either.

I also remember the first times I was trying to make models like this, and I also got frustrated with the exact same pifalls: tools changing triangle orders, messing me about, declaring the conversion to mdl impossible all of a sudden. Things got much easier once I had some reliable tools to import and export models around, and a good editor like gmax to do all the editing. One thing that it really takes experience to know is exactly what kind of models you can make which will still convert to quake format. Once you have that down, it's much easier to do everything in a high-end editor and leave the conversion to the end. 
And... 
And I really have to add that the most valuable thing I learnt is MD3 format is really your friend when it comes to exporting time.

As long as your MD3 is a single mesh*, then it can be converted to quake with only a loss of accuracy in the animations, the skinmap, smoothing and frames can all be converted. So seriously, find an editor which can export to MD3(blender, gmax, 3dsmax, maya all do), give it a try, and I'll bet you won't go back.


* "A single mesh" here doesn't mean that all the triangles have to be connected in a continuous object. It's a technical thing about MD3s, you can have multiple "meshes" making up a single MD3, which then get joined together with tags. Each of these meshes can have it's own skinmap, but MDL format will only accept 1 skin, and can't do anything with the tags. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to combine the skinmaps side by side and line up the tags, but it would be a bit hard for an automated tool to do well... 
Hugh 
That makes things a bit clearer. So it seems that mdl2 and md3 are the extentions I have to look for.

The qmld2r9b seems a good programm as it comes to exporting 3DS. I have never come further then in and exporting extentions in it, as the skinpainter is weird with the pal format and I never knew how to add bones.

The only trick i do is importing in AM2000 so I can attach bones to make the animation. While exporting back to QMLE the verticecount doubles, but as I'm making a new model from base that won't matter.

I surely need more knowhow of Max or Blender.
But as I bought AM2000 I have the import ext:
dxf lit seg mdl(own to program) ply 3ds av2
which are quiet a lot.
Export extentions are only four:
ply 3DS av2 mdl (own to program ie not the quake mdl). 
Counts 
Had a quick steamup with max3d and now I've managed to import an enforcer into max with a 3ds file.

I'm on the point that I have bones which are roughly devided over the model. But before going further I decided to check if my model still is on the same count.

Then I see I can only export 3ds and it has one vertice less?
So I import an enforcer
222 vertices 424 triangles
and it comes out as
221 vertices 424 triangles 
 
have you tried importing the enforcer and then exporting it again without doing anything at all in a completely fresh document?

if you're still losing a vertex then i'm not quite sure what's up... it shouldn't merge vertices on it's own. :S 
Yeah 
That's wierd.

The safe, but tedious, option is to export all frames to max then create a new .mdl - treating it as a completely new model. 
Well 
Here are some screenies to fill in the case...
I import an enf.3DS in Max3D and export it unchanged back to QMLE:

http://members.home.nl/gimli/max3.jpg
http://members.home.nl/gimli/max4.jpg

Nothing wrong.
Then I import the model and make my animations, export it to 3DS:

http://members.home.nl/gimli/max1.jpg
http://members.home.nl/gimli/max2.jpg

Max3D shows the right count but Qmle seem to import it different.(?!) 
Triangles 
You've actually gained some triangles there too. I wouldn't expect the import/export process to actually create an identical model though. If I followed my pattern of import cia MD2, then export via MD3, I'd expect the vertex count of a regular quake model to increase quite a bit, because you'd lose all the onseam information, as no other format supports that.

It's just another advantage of recreating the .mdl file from scratch each time, rather than trying to import new frames into an existing one: You don't have to worry if there's an extra vertex or if the triangle count has changed, you just start with a blank slate each time. 
Skyboxes And Water In Quake (darkplaces Client) 
hey just two questions.

How do I add custom skyboxes to my quake maps? I'm using WC 3.3 and the Darkplaces client for my Quake maps. I have a sky texture in my dev.wad called "sky", and I added the "sky" key in the worldspawn entity with the name of my sky texture as the value.

I have 6 sky texture files in my quakedir/mymod/textures dir with the names followed by the recommended HL mapping suffixes of bk, ft, rt, lt, up and dn.

However, when I test my map, I get a black box around my test level.

Also, I have a water texture in my wad with the name "!water", and it's 64x64 (as recommended), but in the game it shows it as one solid tiled chunk, and I cant swim in it.

Any help is appreciated. Thnx. 
 
The skybox images have to be in /mymod/gfx/env and liquid textures require "*" in front of the name (not "!"). 
Correction... 
can't have a filename with * in it, so i think you use # instead. 
Oh Oh... 
nevermind, if it's inside a wad file, you use '*' as post #8276 says. if it's an external texture file, then use '#' 
Well I Dont Use Anything 
Bareback baby! :P

Just check out one of my maps, I think they all have skyboxes except for the speedmap and the remix of e4m1. But off the top of my head i think I just called them duskeft, duskebk or whatever.

I downloaded them from kell.quaddicted.com, I remember having to delete a _ from each one. 
 
maybe i didnt have to even delete the character if i had put the key "sky" "duske_" 
 
Cool thanx for the info, I'll try it out later on today and get back to you on it. 
Got Water But No Sky 
Ok, I got the water working, but I still dont have a skybox.

I have a "sky" key with the value "skybox_" in my worldspawn entity list.

My sky textures are in mymod/gfx/env/, and are named as:

skybox_lt
skybox_lf
skybox_up
skybox_dn
skybox_ft
skybox_bk

and they are in 24bit .bmp format.

any suggestions :) ? 
Minor Success 
Ok, if I load my map and type in "loadsky skybox_" in the console, then it loads it, which asks the questiosn of whether or not WC is even taking into account the entity list change that I made in worldspawn. Also, I found out that the key should perhaps be "loadsky" instead of "sky", but I dont know if this is correct. And finaly, if I add "skybox_" with qoutes as the value to the key "loadsky", the map compiler says that it cant find mymap.bsp in the compile directory. Wierd huh? 
All Better 
Ok, got it fixed, I changed the key to "sky" and the value to "skybox_". The sky loads now, but there are visible seams, which I'm guessing is because it's loading the wrong textures on the faces of the skybox. 
Loadsky 
That is a JoeQuake syntax. Isnt it?

Well my skyboxes (Kells skyboxes) are not of .bmp format but TGA.


skybox_lt
skybox_lf
skybox_up
skybox_dn
skybox_ft
skybox_bk


the first line "skybox_lt" should be "rt" although I believe this is just a typo that you put into the post.

Try removing the _ from the value in the worldspawn and the names of the images.

Dont worry, it will work eventually :)

Darkplaces, AguirRe's GLQuake and FitzQuake all definately work with the key "sky", that is the normal way of doing it.


And finaly, if I add "skybox_" with qoutes as the value to the key "loadsky", the map compiler says that it cant find mymap.bsp in the compile directory. Wierd huh?


Big can of worms - "compile DIR". Just make sure that all of your bsp and map files, as well as the tools you use are inside "quake\id1", and that Worldcraft is set accordingly. Then you will avoid any annoying "file not found" errors.

Also in WC save your map and click "export to map file", then open the map file in Notepad or a text editor (not Word). The Worldspawn is right at the top of the file. You can edit/add keys/values this way, just save the file.

Learn to use your compile tools with a command prompt also, as the WC process window can be buggy as hell.....

let us know what happens when you remove the "_"s and make sure that the skyboxes are 24 bit targas (TGAs), leave the key as "sky". That should work really...... 
Oh Sorry Crossed In The Post :P 
Try your map with different engines. Im not sure all of them will load BMP files as skyboxes. Also JoeQuake and some other engines (Qrack, Tomaz, QMB) might not load the skybox, and you'll have to type loadsky blah.

Darkplaces AGlQuake and Fitz should all work though :) 
It Works Now 
Thnx for the info. It works now.

I got all of mt sky textures as skybox_lt, skybox_rt, etc, in my mymod/gfx/env/ dir. All of the sky textures are in 24bit .tga file format. I put in the "sky" key in the worldspawn along with the "skybx_" value. I got everything to compile fine.

I should make a note that I'm using hmap2.exe for my compiling, which i think is written by LordHavoc for use with DP.

The only slight bug I have with the skyboxes is that there are big visible seams, because the textures are not aligned properly, but this is due to the fact of what I think is the case of my saying "skybox_rt (right)" and DP saying "skybox_rt (left)". I'll fiddle with that and get backt o you.

The reason for all of this sudden commotion is because I started working on my mod. I'm experimenting with making HUGE maps (as in they go way off past the grid in the WC editor). I want to make GTA-like city levels. I got a few ideas I wanna try out. 
OK 
But remember that if you make the level too big it will take infinity to visually optimise (vis) so keep an eye on your details (marksurfaces, clipnodes etc etc). 
 
Yeah, my coagula map is already starting to kick my machines ass in VIS time. Grrr... 
Vis... 
I donn know much about the technicalities of VIS, or BSP tree's for that matter. I do know that the VIS program creates portals, which are sort of like ares that are visible, while other areas are not, because they are hidden bu occulders (or something like that). I believe that it's also used to like determine the visibility of the surfaces which are affected by the lighting in the level. Perhaps I got it all wrong. 
Well 
If your map is like one big arena this is the worst possible scenario, because each portal can see most of the other portals and this takes a lot of time for the program to process. JPL's Castle of the Dark Ages is a very bad map for this and took 50 days for his computer to run vis. Three Towers and a Sick Base was a harsh learning curve for me in the wonderfull world of vis, that map took 6 and a half days to vis. Some of Tronyns maps are also like this. So making a huge map like you describe could work but you will have to keep the details pretty low, so that there are minimum portals.

Some of Ijed's maps in WARPSPASM are massive, some of the biggest levels ever, but he used effective vis-blocking (making sure that the map is broken up by walls and cleverly placed bends in corridors) amd vis times we're comparitively short for him.

Dont confuse vis-blocking with Worldcraft's vis-groups feature, they are completely unrelated.

A massive city could work if all of the buildings touch the sky and are flat on top, and all of a similar height (they will act as barriers and stop the vis process from considering too much of what is on the other side of them), but if you make it so that all of the rooftops are accessible then your finished map will take a huge amount of time to vis.

And your r_speeds will be very high, causeing even modern machines to stutter and suffer frame rate drops.

Please go and make a huge map with good gameplay and vis-blocking :)

Also hmap2 tools are not the best (sorry Lordhavoc), better use these:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/

:) 
 
Thanx for all that info,and I downloaded your tools, so I'll check them out. Is there perhaps some official guide (as in more technical), that specificaly covers what each compile tool does and how to get the most out of it? 
There Is On That Website. 
Look in Quake 1 Tooltips at the bottom of the page.:)

The tools are probably the best for the Quake engine generally, rather than Darkplaces specifically. The idea of doing a GTA style mod would work if you meant GTA1 or GTA2, but seeing as you're asking about a skybox I figure you had a greater vision ;)

Lordhavocs website has all of the details for his tools and engine, but it really is the compiling which would screw you up! You could do a fast-vis "vis.exe -level 1" release which wouldnt take so long as a full compile, but it's not a healthy way of doing things.

Or so they tell me... 
 
"You could do a fast-vis "vis.exe -level 1" release which wouldnt take so long as a full compile, but it's not a healthy way of doing things. "

Not sure what you mean here but it's definitely a good idea while working on the map. You don't want to eat 6 days every time you want to test the map. :) 
RickyT123 
Generally during map development only fastvis is usefull... and then you can face really evil runtime on final fullvis if your vis blocking is crapy.... believe me :( 
I Know Man 
You and me both :)

I have never released a final version with a fast-vis, it gives crappy performance :) 
RickyT123 
The main problem is that fullvis runtime can vary in between minutes, and months !! And there's no possibility to predict what it will be before the first test... that is generally for me the last run :P 
I Usually 
Work with fastvis but do a fullvis a couple of times a week - so there's no nasty surprises later on. 
 
me to, at least once a week i made one 
Months For VIS?? 
That's really wierd, seeing as most people have like quad core CPU's and gigabytes of RAM, I'd imagine it would take at most a few hours. Then again, I do come from a general 3D background, where I'm used to seeing fully raytraced renderes scenes in minutes (sometimes hours). 
 
I'm with you there. I don't know how people are invoking levels that take weeks or months to VIS on modern day machines, but they claim they are. :) 
Apart From Compensating For Something 
They could blame QuArK, but for some reason they are even defending it. 
Vis 
I remembered with the Koho-vis test my computer ended upon 11 minutes, which I thought quiet fast.

The map I was making turned out on 87% after 5 days and it was there already 2 days.
I scratched the map because of 3 homs and started all over again.
Now making sure all polys were on integer grid.

The map turned out alright. And it still takes 6 houres, but that's understandable, having all on grid.

Still 2 homs prevent me from publishing it. 
Spirit 
It is not the tool you are using (i.e QuArK), in my case this is the size of the map (i.e 7915 brushes), and the way it is built.

If you are doing crap, you can have the best equipment, it will not help you :P 
Is Called Vis-blocking 
if you have a map which has 8000 marksurfaces and r_speeds never go past 400 then it will vis in a few minutes.

If you have a map with 40'000+ marksurfaces and r_speeds rarely drop below 20'000 (at level 4) then it will take days. 
RickyT123 
If you have a map with 40'000+ marksurfaces and r_speeds rarely drop below 20'000 (at level 4) then it will take days.

You are wrong: it can take a month !!! 
Yes 
Around 30. 
Ok...but 
that's still very very slow for something which todays machine should be able to compute in minutes. 
 
just a tought, huge Q3 map take much time to compile? 
Zylyx_ 
that's still very very slow for something which todays machine should be able to compute in minutes.

I would say yes and no: the limitations come from the VIS algorithm itself that is a recursive algorithm, so with very huge and complex map that has tons of volume to inspect (VIS is based onto volume rendering) the runtime becomes very high...

Also, a big processor, not to say a multi core processor, does not help that much. First because most of VIS tool are not coded for multi-core processor, and also compared to what I have, it would only save 20% of the runtime best case I guess (i.e i have an AMD Athlon 2600+), and the bottleneck is not only the CPU only but the motherboard fequency and peripherals access (i.e to memory particularly)

Anyway, when a process run for thousand of hours (more than a month) you have to be patient, so 2 or 3 days less will not make the difference there IMHO... as I don't have any manager pressure to sort out my map ;) 
Intersting... 
This is very interesting. We were just talking about the saturation of CPU speeds in my computer and graphics architectures class today, especialy things like how the cpu works with fetching instructions (particurarly in terms of arithmetic processing dependacy and parallelism). It would be cool if there is a way to make this whole VIS process faster , actualy the entire compilation process, without having to sacrifice detail in the 3D model of the level. But I guess that would require re-writting a lot of things from scratch.

My interpretation of this is that the build tools such as the BSP, CSG, VIS and RAD perform a lot of heavy computations, which require CPU level ALU's (arithmetic logic unit) to compute. Seeing as todays dedicated graphics cards hold a lot of processing power, especialy when it comes to floating point calculations, and fully programmable rendering pipelines, I'm guessing it would possible to re-write and optimize the code to work the GPU's, which I'm assuming would speed things up dramaticaly. But who would want todo all that work :)? 
All That Work? 
The Old One. 
Model Mesh 
what makes the Q1 model files so irritating incompatible to handle...argh!

repeated message, i know but I almost learned Max3d manual on importing and exporting them.
They keep dragging on verticejumps and triangle catches.
Finally had my model boned and animated then it turned out rejected.

Starting from scratch won't mind, but manipulating excisting files can be a doughnut. 
_Zylyx 
I'm guessing it would possible to re-write and optimize the code to work the GPU's, which I'm assuming would speed things up dramaticaly.

Indeed, I know some application prefers to use GPU instead of the CPU, because of the ALU performances, but it needs to adapt the software to be adaptable to the GPU... though...

Anyway, Quake standard does not like big map. It has not been built for what we are asking today. The community is constantly asking for bigger / better / more detailed maps, even if the VIS tools have made impressive progresses (thanks aguirRe !), the overall runtime is suffering... but this sacrifice is worth supporting it, as it enables fabulous maps and projects...

I think I'll try to contact aguirRe to get his point of view about using GPU instead of CPU, maybe he would accrpt to try the porting... who knows ? 
Monster Statue 
Is it possible with Quoth to have monster statues, that will wake-up on trigger event ? 
Lighting Question 
#1 I use WC 1.6 it supports a color picker. The format is Quake2 0-1,0-1,0-1 for RGB. What is considered the standard 0-1 or 0-255 for RGB.

#2 What modern tools support the 0-1 format? (not Hmap2).

#3 Must obey the use of _color so as not to screw with Quoth's light entities. 
Jpl 
i'm thinking this: func_wall with model key set to the monster and appropriate frame (like you set up for a monster corpse).

then a trigger that kills the func_wall model and spawns in the correct monster.

maybe some debris spawners for effect and a func_togglewall on top of the func_wall to make it 'solid'. 
Necros 
OK, thanks, I'll try it.

I thought it was something available with Quoth. It may be good idea to add such feature BTW ;) 
What Do Dale Earnhardt And Pink Floyd Have In Common? 
You will probably run into a problem with the func_wall, "SOLID_BSP with a non BSP model". You can use mapobject_custom to similar effect, although you'll have the non-solid problem. 
Oh Sorry 
yeah, my bad. for my original post, i should have said func_illusionary instead, since func_wall doesn't work, but i totally forgot you added in the custom mapobj entity, preach. :) 
But 
both fly a plane 
 
Dale Earnhardt : "I'd hit it like a wall!" 
Necros 
No problem ;) I'll test the method ASAP :D 
Close... 
The real punchline is For both, their final hit was "The Wall" 
LOL 
#8322 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2009/02/22 19:22:40
Dale Earnhardt : "I'd hit it like a wall!"


As for Dale Jr. I have seen him walk out of a bar with pair of fugly skanks on his arms. He'll hit on anything. 
No Log Exists 
When I run WC 3.33, it says the following for everything in the textures directory:

Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\id_base.hlwad ... details ...No log exists.

This is not such a big deal since I already have the Quake/Hipnotic/Raven etc textures converted and working. But if I want to convert new textures, it won't work.

Any ideas? 
Hmm 
Try using a program that can convert wc 1.6 wads to wc 3.3 wad files, wadconv.exe is a good one, but I dont know any links sadly. I think texmex can do this too, but I dont have a link for that either, sorry! :( 
Links 
http://www.doomworld.com/xwe/
http://www.quaketerminus.com/tools.htm

texmex is harder to find, but I'm sure it is there. 
TexMex 
Hexen Ii Styled Text Dialogue Boxes 
Hay guys,

I'm trying to do something pretty simple here for a series of Quake SP maps... and don't know the right way about going about this. If anyone remembers the dialogue boxes when you looked at a stele or obelisk etc. in Hexen II, it would bring up essentially a box with text describing it etc. and I'm trying to get the same thing in Quake without extensive coding and/or shooting pains in or around the anus. Normal triggers don't seem to work right w/ this due to the text remaining on the screen only for a set client-side amount of time :/

Any thoughts on getting multiple lines of text or a paragraph to stay on the screen longer, then resume gameplay? 
I Think You'll Have To Code It In 
Inside3d.com is the place to go, although there are some coders which are geniouses who may yet reply here...... 
This Is Func_read Or Somethin' Related 
you should ask tronyn about it (it was done in soe iirc) 
 
centerprint (entity e, string s);

is the function you want. it prints the string to the entity specified. the amount of time the center print stays on screen is controlled by an engine variable (scr_centertime, i think) which you can change in the console.

so you would need to circumvent that because you can't assume scr_centertime will be a constant.

what you can do is simply keep calling the function over and over at regular intervals (let's say ever 0.1 seconds) while you are looking at whatever needs a dialog box.
then, when the player looks away, stop and send a centerprint with "" to clear the screen immediatly. 
KamiKaze 
There should be a batfile called 'convtex' or something either in your WC3.3 textures folder or its root folder.

It worth noting that it converts all the texture wads, but if it fails on one for any reason then it stops converting - remove that one wad and the rest will convert ok.

If you've upgraded to Hammer then as far as I remember there's some other fuckup that stops you loading new textures in. 
Necros 
Thanks, this is probably the route i'm going to take due to ease of use and: tbh after looking at H2 source, the method there is a bit too out of wack for what I need..

After playing NSOE, I see that's pretty much the way I'd like it to work, so if the end result is the same / similar then all will be well.

I'll fidget w/ it. 
Color Light 
What do people use to achieve this? I've been googling and can't really find anything that tells you how to do it.

I read the .txt file for fitzquake and it said it supports colored lighting with .lit files. But google turned up nothing for .lit files. 
KamiKaze 
.lit file is generated during map lightning process. Depending on your light tool, it is supported, or not. Generally you just have to add a -colored and/or a -lit option to your command line.
You also need to add a _color field per light entity. _colored are using r g b fields in [0:1] range (i.e equivalent to 0 to 255). 
Colored Light 
Tyrlight supports colored light, exactly in the method JPL described. The readme should give more info.

http://www.disenchant.net/utils.html 
Question 
guys, what's the best/average _sunlight, _sunlight2/3 value? l tried with 220/100 value but its look like minlight has been used. or there is no best value :) 
Interesting Query 
What angle have you set for each of your "suns"?

should be "0-360" "0 to -90" "0"(the last number is there just as a marker)

If you dont set a good angle I'm not sure what the behaviour is, but regardless of the brightness you should have your suns all at different angles to see the effect well. I cant remember what the key is exactly - "_sunlight_mangle"? It should say in the docs on AguirRe's website:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmevis.txt 
As For The Brightness Of The Suns 
100 - 220 should look fine. The sunlight has no falloff so any value over about 15 should be obvious..... But if the angle is -90 then it may look like minlight in outside areas because it will be pointing 90 degrees downwards 
Something Like 
_sun_mangle 230 -45 0
_sunlight 250
_sunlight3 140 
OK, Quoted From Mthe Readme: 
The 2nd sunlight is enabled via command line option "-sunlight2 #" or via "_sunlight2" key in
worldspawn. This 2nd sun is actually many suns automatically positioned in an arrangement with
different yaw/pitch to eliminate bad shadows. When option "-extra" or "-extra4" is enabled, more
suns are used.

This 2nd sunlight value can be used to soften the shadows in outdoor areas from the normal
sunlight without using minlight, which in turn then may be reserved for indoor areas. A value of
60 is a good starting point for the 2nd sunlight if the normal sunlight is 250.

You can also add the "-shadowsense #" option which sets the angle (shadow) sensitivity for 2nd
sunlight (default 0.0). This can reduce the sometimes uniform look of sunlight. Recommended value
is 0.4 together with an increased 2nd sunlight level of about 10. For convenience, you can also
use option "-sunlight3 #" or "_sunlight3" key which just enables 2nd sunlight and at the same time
sets shadow sensitivity to 0.4.


Interesting it doesnt say how to set the angle of the second sun, but I would try reducing your "_sunlight3" (or 2) value to something much lower like 40 or 50.....

Maybe. Or email AguirRe :) he's very helpful 
 
shit sorry about the bad formatting... 
Afaik 
there is no (m)angle for sunlite2/3
but anyway thank you for the hell[p] 
Is It Possible 
To give a different colour to each sunlight? 
AFAIK 
AguirR�s tools don�t support colour. 
UVW Twisting 
What causes this?

I have the thing fine in Qme and can reopen where still it looks correct, but in game it looks like the texture is twisted round the object in a spiral. 
Also 
Qme can�t open DXF files from the most recent version of 3dMax? 
Well 
DXF is shittier than 3ds whose backwards compatibility format means it doesn't matter which version you export from.

Might try experimenting with uvw's there, but don't hold much hope - AFAIK the model will be reskinned automatically.

Twisting could be down to using different versions of Qme.

What I'm trying to do is unfold the model so its flat and correctly mapped, then have its first animation frame group as put back together, the second being the mapped version. 
Half Life - Missing PAK 
I think I've mentioned on here before that I'm thinking of doing some HL mapping. Wondering if anyone has any experience with mapping for steam (NON SOURCE) Half Life. Seems like theres no pak0.pak in the valve folder. Any ideas as to where it is, or what it has been replaced with? I'm frankly surprised at how backwards incompatible Valve has made their breakout product considering the user community was a main ingredient in its huge success. 
I Think 
if you've 'converted' a normal HL installation for steam, pak files are removed and placed in those GCF files in the steam/steamapps folder, but i could be wrong. 
Necros 
thanks for the quick reply!

does anyone know if there is a program I can use to browse GCF files? 
Nevermind 
Found one... 
Drew 
Yeah just extracting the .gcf's content to your gamemod's folder structure usually does the trick enough to get usable media ie: wads etc. That's how I got Radiant 1.4.0 Raven working w/ HL / DMC.

Also, looks like you found GCFScape ;) 
Im Looking For Some Help: 
I know I can set an info_notnull to be a single frame of animation from a model. I.e. a statue.
Im looking for the frame number of a dead shambler, when they lie on the ground with their arms out.

And also I want to make it "lie" on the wall, so I guess I would need to use the angles key, but what value?

If anyone can answer these questions it would be very helpfull and save me a lot of messing about! 
So You Want 
To crucify a shambler?

Frame: 104 for RQ 94 for id1

For angles you'll have to mess about, roll or yaw will depend on which way the wall is facing - NSEW.

Put it in a box, compile with player start and check. 
;-) 
thnx Ijed! 
Point Of Fact 
104 does something else instead. 
 
The hell, Richard! Ripping my ideas straight from my mind, or what??? 
Thats How I Get All Of My Ideas! 
I tap into your dreams so I can see maps which you dont even know you thought of yet :D 
Good 
you can't tap into mine or you'll loose your mind. 
Blood, Blood, Glorious Blood.. 
...nothing quite like it for spilling on mud

(apologies to Flanders and Swann)

I need a good blood texture - rivers of blood, pools of blood etc. Can anyone point me in the right direction please? 
Blood Texture 
Mike: here are some I have on my PC... maybe you have them... plus some others I added in Five Rivers Land (e.g blood falls, etc...). Let me know what you would need ;)

CTF4: *02owat
DKT3: blood, blood4, bool64... but need to be renamed with * prefix
Doom2: *Blood1d2
Doom3: *bloodhell
GYROTEX: *lava3, need to be renamed to *<whatever but not lava> to avoid damage when crawling
Hexen2: *rtex386, *skulls
HIPNOTIC: *blood1
knave: *daemon, *daemonica, *redfog, *slimered
OBTEX2: *ob105
ZERST�RER: *viscera_liq1, *viscera_liq2, *viscera_liq3, *viscera_liq4, meat1_5 and viscera10. The 2 last ones need to be renamed with * prefix

Make your selection :P 
Bloody Hell! 
 
 
JPL is the antichrist!!!

so much knowledge of BLOOD 
Satan Is My Lord... 
... and I will swallow your soul.. :P 
As An Info_notnull 
ogre grenade explosion hack likely to break deathmatch in anything other than Reaperbot 0.81?

I wonder if its Quakeworld compatible, or netquake compatible.

Any idea why the notnulls cannot be removed from DM mode via spawnflags? 
Hmmm 
someone (Negke) suggested I use the player grenade instead. So if ogregrenades are:

"use" "ogre_grenade_explode"

with or without caps or _s in places (my memory is foggy) then does anyone have any idea what it is for the player grenade explosion? 
 
I think it's "GrenadeExplode". 
Thanks 
I'll try that an the other suggestion "W_FireGrenade", will report back later 
 
Well, W_FireGrenade will actually spawn a grenade and throw it into the world whereas GrenadeExplode will just create the explosion, cause damage, and destroy the current entity (which I assume will be your info_null. 
Ahhh 
oh right! Thanks for the help :) 
Fat Controller's RCDM7 OxyMorons 
hellos,

i was wondering if fat controller has the oxymoron textures he(she maybe, they? i don't want to assume)used on the map RCDM7 "The Ministry of Love" available in/on the Internets

or if not whither he/she/they have a active e-mails or have a place most likely to contact too see if """ still have them or if i can get permission to get them from the map somehow

because they are awesome textures and this map has inspired me more to seek some literature, like how quake got me inta hovercraft, now i wanna read 1984 :O

thanks...or somfin'

[sorry if i DE-railed any previous discussions with this posting, heh] 
Hmm 
They're by Stecki. WAD is called Decon.

Here; http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/deconwad.zip 
Oh, I Have That But 
it dosen't seem to have the ministry slogans in it, sorry i should have mentioned i have the decon.wad with all the other textures :S

i dont really want to take them w/o permission and make fat controller mad if he sees or something

//in the case im in one of my drowsy crazy spells im talking about the "ignorance is strengh", "war is peace",and "freedom is slavery" textures 
Nah 
I gaunruntee he'll be alot more likely to be happier having his textures used than upset that someone's used them. 
Gauruntee 
But that's not right either. There's what comes from learning to read from the Beano. 
Hmm 
one of my drowsy crazy spells

I get those too ;) But I misunderstand posts more than miscommunicate... 
Hmm 
But yeh, iirc FC used to release all his map textures as WADs for others to use too. If you can't get hold of him I honestly think he'd be pleased if you used them. Guarantee'd. 
Ok, Thanks For The Guaran't :O 
ill keep looking see if he's listed anywhere before i break stuff trying to collect the textures though

//i feel like a creep when looking for e-mails and stuff like that though :S 
If Its Any Constelation (ha) 
I nicked my skybox from someone, I cant even remember who, and modified it. 
 
I have a WAD editor I'm working on that can extract the textures from a BSP file. If you email me the BSP, I can extract a WAD for you and mail it back. 
 
Willem texmex do that! :) 
 
Oh. Well, then he should have no problems getting the textures out. :) 
I Think... 
he was looking for permission, not the technical means to do it. 
 
My mistake then. Didn't read carefully enough. 
Hmm 
Yeh, but the line about trying to extract them without breaking things implied a need for software linkage...

What tool you making Willem? Or is this a new feature of Toetag? 
Hmm 
I have a WAD editor I'm working on

I win reading 
 
I'm redoing ToeTag as an editing suite so it'll have a level editor, WAD editor, MDL editor, PAK editor, and a bunch of other stuff. It's a longer term project but it's steaming along.

I want to also add stuff like editing sprite files, QuakeC editing/compiling, etc. 
I Got Them Out Though 
i was expecting more of a challenge, texmex is fast

i found an email for on the web comic he is doing (http://emotel.comicgenesis.com/)but if i do not get a replay ill most likely just use them w/o discreetness to see if i get a hollah

anyways, ToeTag looks cool from the screen shots i have seen, is it still only for mac things though?:O

anywaysanyways, thanks for the helps, cos this did help..in some way :D 
Solanum Everywhere 
Can someone point me in a direction here... I need to get a few zombies (and by a few I mean a horde) to play dead until triggered, ambushed, whatever, then get up, rise from the grave as it were, and start attacking.

Crucifying them is fun and all but gets boring after awhile. I'd like to try some necromancy.

Thoughts? 
Code Needed 
Think This Should Be In The Coding Thread But: 
wait, are you the same guy i told the half-zombie idea to? but i digress:

http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/quakec/monsters/

has some zombie stuff in it, it *might* have what you are looking for, but if not than maybe look for the zerstroer source, it has that kind [i guess i mean they do wait till a trigger or somfin then the rise ...right?

http://retroquake.planetquake.gamespy.com/blog/?p=177 
Hm 
 
Zombies... 
would it be possible to do this:

1. make normal zombie.
2. make a func_door with the skip texture right on the zombie's hitbox.
3. make door 'startopen' so that it spawns in the ground under the zombie.
4. make trigger_hurt over zombie with enough damage to make it fall
(at a certain level of damage, the zombie is coded to fall down 100% of the time)
5. right after, killtarget trigger_hurt
6. trigger door to 'open' so it is now blocking the zombie from standing.
(there's code to check whether a zombie can stand or not and will not do so if blocked)
7. when ready, killtarget the door and the zombie will stand up again.

it's really complex, but it could be used if you had a one off thing somewhere and didn't want to code anything up. 
Oops Sorry Ijed :S I Musta Typed And 
posted at the same time you did :S

necros looks like hes got his act together :O 
Simplification 
I'm pretty sure you could swap the door setup for a wall that blocks the zombie the whole time, which you then killtarget when you want the zombie to wake up. It'll still fall down from damage if it is blocked. 
Free Pro Tip 
If you place the func_wall so that it covers the origin of the zombie, then you can prevent splash damage from killing the zombie. Direct hits will still be fatal though, so be careful about letting the player kill the zombies before they get woken up, since that will leave an invisible wall which players might hit.

It might be possible to circumvent that problem by setting the touch function on the wall to knight_die3*. It depends on there being no touch event generated between wall and zombie, both if the zombie tries to stand up and anything sets force_retouch. I think the first case is actually safe, but not so sure about the second. Walking through a teleporter sets force_retouch, so a testmap could be made easily.


* Astute readers may have expected SUB_Remove here instead of knight_die3. The reason we use the latter is that you must not remove entities during a touch function. So instead we use part of a monster death sequence, which does nothing but change the frame(no effect on a skip textured wall) except to make the entity non-solid. 
 
ijed & meTch: Thanks. I'm going to end up doing some code in this project anyway, this may be a good start for it.

necros, Preach: That is absolutely dizzying. I considered a group of events for this but couldn't come up with a reliable sequence. :\
OK this gives me a lot of experimentation in both directions. Thanks again :D back to Radiant to try to make some magic happen. 
I Myself Have Come Up Witha Triggery Problem In 
the mid'st of the nite, is it possible to make a trigger_push blow you [uh huhuh uuuuh huh huh]in a slant-y-diagonal-y direction? im in QuArK dong this, i tried to set so a first push would blow you [heh heheheh heh heheh] upward, and a second one above it to the side, but it didn't quite work

[huh huh hu he said blow]

//sorry it has nothing to do with zombies not standing up though :S 
I Think: 
use 'angles' instead of 'angle' and set as a vector. 
Enki 
What's the project? 
Ijed 
a little themed sp adventure, something to pass the time. :D 
Not Really Mapping But 
http://g.imagehost.org/0163/vsyncorwhat.jpg
I noticed in two engines that if I look at void and move my view, the geometry tears and spasms as you can see on that screenshot (for example in tyr-glquake).
In other engines the void stays clear of the rest and there is no such tearing. (for example Fitzquake (sdl 0.80) and DP.

First I thought it was VSync disabled but vid_vsync is 0 in Fitzquake. In DP it is also disabled. Also forcing it in the video driver did not change a thing.

What is this? 
Spirit: 
is fitzquake 0.85 one of the problem engines? if so i'd like to see your bsp to see if i can figure it out. 
Ah No 
Fitzquake SDL 0.80 is fine so I assume any Fitzquake is fine. For me it is any map when I look at void (eg noclip outside the map) and move/look around.

I'll try it in Windows on the weekend. 
 
Spirit: some sort of gl_clear issue?

Preachcros: Nice one, keep em coming! :) 
Spirit: 
gl_clear 1 -- clear the void with a solid color
gl_clear 0 -- hall-of-mirrors effect 
Nope 
The tearing appears also with gl_clear 0. It's hard to explain. Try tyr-glquake and gl_clear 1, then noclip out into the void. If it happens to you too, that's where you see it best. 
Hmm 
Can someone give me the item bits for the SG please. All I need to complete the coag3_start is the weapon remove hack and then we can release, but while I've found the BackpackTouch hack info, I can't find a list of item bits and the example removes everything except axe...

I'm assuming 125 should add every weapon (value of 1 for axe, value of 2 for shotgun) except SG&Axe, but I'd like some kinda confirmation for someone who's mapped for Q1 within the last 7 years... 
Hmm 
nm, thank god for irc 
Hm... 
those patterns actually look kinda cool... 
Aalllllllll-righty Then 
thanks for the tip on the vector and making it angles instead of angle, because i finally figured out how to do it :D [i kept adding tick-marks between the numbers :/]

and fat controller did get back to me on the e-mail today and said i can use he textures as long as i give him kreditz which will not be a problem :D

this is what i kinda looks like atm:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/metchsteekle/quake0005.png?t=1238886386

and yes it will be some kind of a multi-player thing map, i just dont know what yet, maybe dm/ffa 
Odd Entity Behavior In Quake 
Hi,

I just started mapping again after many years gone. I've been working on a re-mix of my Quake level "Well of Wishes" (original map was lost in a hard drive crash) and I ran across an odd thing. I uploaded a map to quaketastic to illustrate, but basically I am able to push items through solid geometry, but only from certain directions. I was trying to find a way to add items as the player progressed using the fewest possible entities/brushes, but without resorting to a custom progs.dat and When I first came up with this I didn't realize the item bounding boxes were so tall


I may not use this method because it seems like might be more of a bug in the engine than anything else, but I was wondering if anyone knew why this happens. In the map I uploaded there are 4 alcoves with nails and health in each. The wall above the alcove is low enough that the player can't pass and get to the items. In the actual level the alcove would be hidden by a func_illusionary and when triggered they would be pushed into view by the func_door.
The only engines I've tried are fitzquake085, winquake and glquake, but it does the same thing in all three. The door will push the items through only from the north and east, from south and west the items fall through the floor when they pass through the wall.

If anybody wants to check this out, the example map is here:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/doortest.zip

Shoot the buttons above each alcove to trigger the pushing door.
Turn on r_showbboxes in fitzquake for a more interesting view.

Back to mapping for now. 
 
That's because the wall is too low - the items' bounding boxes are 64 units tall. I don't know why it works - albeit with a visible clipping glitch - on two sides but doesn't on the other two (probably related to the bottom right back corner origin thing of entities). Since you're going to use two funcs anyway, you could make the illusionary an addtional door or wall and killtarget it, or let the items drop from a closet in the ceiling or in the floor. 
MDL Time Stamps 
OK, I can't seem to get the time stamp field to do anything in either frame groups or skin groups -- is it used at all or does the engine lock that stuff down to a specific frame rate and that's the end of the story?

I'm changing values in my model editor but it's not having any effect on the speed of either kind of group. 
Odd Entity Behavior 
Yeah, I realize why it won't work, I was just baffled as to why it ever did in the first place. It must be some quirk in the engine code. I widened the alcoves by 64 units in each direction and items still drop out in only 2 of the 4 directions, so I don't think it's bounding box related.
Anyway, it's not a big deal as I was already using ceiling doors and floor doors in other places. 
 
The alcoves are fine, otherwise the items would drop out right away. The openings are not high enough - raise the brush under the buttons by 16 units and you'll see that all items are pushed out correctly. 
Arched Doorways? 
Really could use some help here. If someone could direct me to a tutorial for arched doorways in Radiant 1.5 for Quake III Arena, that'd be great. I've tried looking myself, and the one I did find was outdated and vague besides. If anyone has a video tutorial, that's even better. Thanks in advance!

Clock 
Willem 
Do you mean the value that's meant to set duration of each frame? As I recall, they work correctly in software quake, and in glquake based engines, the value in the first frame in the framegroup gets applied to the entire framegroup. Recommended setting is to set all of them to the same value so that the behaviour is the same in all engines. But you could make the framegroup-wide setting modifiable like that... 
 
Well, I currently have it set up where you edit them all and I guess I'll leave it like that as the file format supports it even if the engine doesn't. Heh, oh well... 
Arched Doorways 
That's Actually A Pretty Good Tutorial 
 
Half-life Like Transperent Textures In Quake 
Hi !

I was just wondering, is it possible to have transperent textures in quake? By that I mean textures which contain the image which is fully visible, but areas of the texture which are not rendered. A good example of this would a fence of some sort or barbed-wire.

I did hear that quake renders texures with the color value 0 (in the 8bit quake palette) as transperent, but I think this only works for sky textures.

Any help/advie is appreciated. 
 
Stock Quake doesn't do transparency in any way with the sole exception of the sky (as you noted). I think more advanced engines may support textures with alpha channels but I'm not sure. 
 
Ok, I'll see what I can do instead of using that then. Maybe I'll just model the fence, lol. 
Well 
You can use sprites to do that, if you don't mind the fact that they won't be lit by static or dynamic lights(which really limits you to placing them in bright locations or having them look quite odd. Quoth has a few examples of this. 
 
Cool, I;ll trya few different things and see how it goes. 
Eaxample 
as long as you make the width not to far and keep a little distance it wont matter, it can even give a magic touch...
http://members.home.nl/gimli/sprite.jpg
but when you change your view it will also change.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/sprite1.jpg

For transparant texture colour look for Wally:
http://www.telefragged.com/wally/index.shtml
trabsparant colour RGB 159 91 83 ColourIndex 255 
MDL Float Drift And Precision Issues... 
Is there an understanding in the Quake modeling community that you won't be loading/saving MDL files over and over with any success? I'm struggling to get my model editor to load and save MDL files repeatedly but float drift and precision issues are causing it to eventually end up with the wrong number of vertices and blam, down she goes.

Do people just rebuild MDL files scratch each time they write them out or do editors typically allow you to load and save the native MDL file format repeatedly? 
Yes 
That issue come up just recently somewhere. Might have been at Inside3D. 
 
Yes, meaning that people don't expect to be able to work natively with MDL? 
 
Oh, no idea about that. 
Standard 
When I make models, I keep a copy in gmax for any editing, and just export to mdl when I need to. I try to ensure that the only edits I do once it's exported are to the skin and the flags. Last time this topic came up was http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=4&start=8259&end=8283

Since then, I have thought of an analogy for it. If you're making an image/texture in photoshop, you might export it to jpg or tga format in order to show it to somebody. But you'd keep a copy with all the layers in PSD format if you wanted to go back and edit it later. 
 
"Since then, I have thought of an analogy for it. If you're making an image/texture in photoshop, you might export it to jpg or tga format in order to show it to somebody. But you'd keep a copy with all the layers in PSD format if you wanted to go back and edit it later."

Fantastic! Yes, this is how I've come to think of it now. I'm going to create my own file format that can hold the model and it's frames in high precision and you can export to MDL as needed from there. This will basically act as a project file, holding the frames and skins together in one place until you are ready to export. 
Yeah! 
And you could call it mdo!

:-p

QMe actually had two approaches to this. The older versions, 3.0 and earlier, used to store higher precision vertex information at the end of the mdl file, after all the stuff that the quake engine would look at. 3.1 onwards had it's own model format with the extension MDO, which stored higher precision vertices, bone information, etc. 
What 
Is the �official� version of Qme - the one from Quake Terminus?

That one doesn�t seem to support skin groups, though the older MDO versions did - but they f-up UVW�s a fair bit (hit and miss).

Willam, the newer version does only have one format, but it also has two save options - �Save� and �Save as Quake model� the second version skimming off all the extra data.

Confusing, don�t know why they did that.

The Photoshop analogy is perfect �Save for Web�. 
Versioning 
From memory, I think that the full version you get from Quake Terminus is QMe 3.0. If you download the QMe 3.1 demo from somewhere, then it comes with a patch that will upgrade 3.0 full to 3.1 full. So if you do that, you'll have the most recent version, which has the previously mentioned MDO format. 
 
"And you could call it mdo! "

Well, sure, but usable on a Mac. :) 
Thanks Preach 
 
Hax4fax 
I might have asked this before, but didn't get an answer or at least can't find it anymore.

Is it possible to use the activatable trigger hack for teleporters and pushes? It doesn't work the regular way (use classname/touch SUB_Null) and I couldn't get it to work by experimenting with the related fields/functions in triggers.qc, so maybe I missed something important - or does it just not work at all with these two?

A func_door can't have it's owner set to the player (1), or what? Works for all funcs I tested but not simple doors. Is there a work-around, am I just too dumb or do I have to use something else here (train etc)? 
But 
Teleports don't activate until triggered if they have a name - ?

I've experimented with the push before but can't remember how it ended up. 
Triggers Are Wonderful Things 
The thing that makes trigger_teleport and trigger_push fail is that both functions precache sounds during their spawnfunctions, an action which is illegal after the frames begin.

As luck would have it, there is a very easy fix in the case of the trigger_teleport. Set spawnflag 2 on your info_notnull. This is the SILENT flag, which means the file will not be precached. This does mean that you lose the ambient sound of the teleporter, but not the sounds when you actually teleport from it.

trigger_push is not so fortunate, so we have to work a bit harder. What we do is directly set the touch function ourselves, and then make the use function perform the trigger initialisation instead. The only other things that the trigger_push spawnfunction does is precache the sound, and set a default .speed on the entity.

The fields should look like:

use InitTrigger
touch trigger_push_touch
speed 1000


The problem with func_door is that .owner is already used for doors - it points to the master door. Even if you could construct an entity which has all the settings of a door except .owner equal to the player, you'd cause crashes as soon as you tried to open it. So a func_train or func_plat is probably the best bet. 
Thanks 
I didn't think it was that easy. There are other teleporters in the map already, so I assumed the precaching was taken care of. It wasn't supposed to have a sound anyway (and if it had been, a train_wait/noise entity could have done the trick).

The door is supposed to ensure that monsters can walk across seperated platforms - since they're skip-textured, it doesn't really matter which kind of func is used.

ijed: A trigger_teleport with a targetname only teleports if it's triggered (=by the player, unless another hack is used). However, I wanted a cleaner, or let's say, less dirty solution which also allows monsters to be teleported. 
Seems It's Not All That Easy After All 
The trigger_teleport is functional, however, since it has a targetname (inevitably), it has to be fired again in order to trigger the teleportation (like a regular one). I tried InitTrigger and teleport_touch, but to no avail. Is it even possible to have an activatable touch-teleporter with this setup? 
Hmm 
I think you should be able to hack around that it by setting nextthink to 999999, or a similarly large number. Then it should work until that time is reached in-game. I imagine that 999999 seconds is long enough that something else breaks first, so it's a fairly safe, if ugly, hack. 
Yes, That Works. 
And now I finally understand what nextthink in QC. 
 
*does 
Preach 
Issues start happening at 9.7 days, where the floats get big enough lose accuracy at the 0.1 seconds order of magnitude. There are 86400 seconds in a day, so that should be high enough, albeit hacky... 
Lol 
... 
Ok For Real This Time 
would it be possible to get monsters mad at something like a hurt trigger or something [like say zombies] so that they attack it? does what i just typed make sense? anyways, it would be cool if i could do that without mod, using quoth for mod btw :O 
 
i think you could haxor the edict number of a trigger_hurt into a monster's .enemy field when building the map, but the monster will just go after it right at map spawn time. this isn't great since the player might not be there yet to see what happens.
you could maybe hide the monster away in a monster closet or something i guess and open it up when the player is in the right spot.

but you can't do anything more complex without changing a fundamental thing about the AI.

specifically, the damage/combat reaction and sight reaction. the only way for a monster to get angry at something else is if it's 'found' via searching (which normally only looks for clients, which is even more selective) or being hurt.

except that when being hurt, all sources except players and monsters (.flags = FL_MONSTER) are discarded. besides, it'd be a cheap hack to make the monster attack a trigger_hurt by first having the trigger 'damage' the monster.

so that leaves sight.
adding it in there wouldn't be a big deal, but you'd need to add it in after searching for players, and then as either a find loop or a findradius.
still, that doesn't really make it useful since if the trigger is in sight, the monster will just go attack it regardless of if the player is around to see it happen.

so what's left would be making some kind of script object that, when triggered, makes the monster angry at a specific entity.
that sounds like the best bet here. 
That First Suggestion 
seems like it would work :O im hoping to try and make it similar to this
"""Directly in front of this yawning Polyphemus-door the things were throwing objects - evidently sacrifices or religious offerings, to judge by their gestures. Khephren was their leader; sneering King Khephren or the guide Abdul Reis, crowned with a golden pshent and intoning endless formulae with the hollow voice of the dead. By his side knelt beautiful Queen Nitocris, whom I saw in profile for a moment, noting that the right half of her face was eaten away by rats or other ghouls. And I shut my eyes again when I saw what objects were being thrown as offerings to the fetid aperture or its possible local deity."""
and ill be using zombies, so them dieing shouldn't be a problem 
Scripting An Attack 
Ok, here's a hack to make monsters attack an arbitrary entity:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=37116&start=74&end=74

All you need to do to adapt it is to change

owner n

on the "attacking" info_notnull so that n is the entity number of whatever you want the monsters to attack. For it to work, you do need to make sure that your monsters don't walk off before getting hit by the trigger, and remember that the player can still attract their aggression later by attacking them.

PS: A word of warning to neg!ke. Make sure you do not fire the targetname pointing to your newly spawnable trigger_teleports more than once. The first time will spawn the trigger_teleport, but the second time will fire the regular teleport "use" function, which will reset self.nextthink and thereby ruin the hack. 
Ok 
Good to know 
Creatures In A Func_train 
Hello,

I've been trying to get a sort of cage with 3 Shalraths (Vores) in it to move around in a func_train, so it's harder to kill them. A nice idea, but the bastards keep falling out even though it's closed and I positioned them inside the cage at the first path_corner. Is it not possible to get creatures on a moving platform without them falling true ? By the way, I'm using Worldcraft 1.6 a. 
 
I'm trying to think of an id1 map that had monsters on a moving platform but I'm coming up dry. Except for that slow descending lift that spawns the zombies. But even there, the zombies are spawning and falling onto the platform so it's probably not the same thing... 
 
I've seen monsters use lifts successfully but never, to my memory, a func_train ... dunno! Preach? :) 
 
Check if the cage is large enough - as with the items, there have to be at least 4 units of space (sides; maybe 32-40 above) between the brushes of the train and the monsters' bounding boxes. The bottom of the train has to be big enough, too - their bboxes must not overlap with the edges. Another reason they keep falling though could be holes in the bottom, if it is a grate for example, though then again, I think such things are taken care of in hull 1/2. 
 
Thanks for your quick replies.
I'd been thinking myself if I've seen it used before and could not remember ever seeing it done. I will try a bigger box and if that doesn't work maybe I'll make the floor move around a bit to get a similar result. Or maybe I'll just think of something else, I'll let you know if it worked. By the way, there are no holes in the bottom, only behind the Vores, but that's closed by a wall over the whole length of the path_corners. They just fall true and then block the "train", resulting in them slowly dying. It's quite humorous to hear them scream, but it was not what I intended ;) 
Monsters In Func_train 
the vore in hip3m1? 
Tip 
I have one quick tip. Make sure that when you place your func_train brushes in the editor, it is positioned so that the lowermost extent exactly on the first path_corner. To find the lowermost extent, consider the smallest bounding box which will surround the entire model. Then take the coordinates of the corner of the box where x, y and z are all smallest. This will make sure the train doesn't get moved when it spawns, which might be getting the vores stuck. 
And I'm Assuming 
That all other path corners should be placed with the same logic? 
Just Tried It 
but as long as the distance between func_train and vormit holds 24 units it rides fine.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/trainvore.zip

Good idea! 
Vores On A Train 
Yea it does work, just make sure the train is
triggered a little after the vores are spawned
onto the train. So, use a trigger_once for the
train. 
Lardarse 
Yeah, the path_corners always indicate the minimum point on the bounding box. The spawn function for a train always "teleports" the func_train to the first path_corner. So you need to place the vores in such a way to anticipate when the train will be once it's been teleported in this way. The easiest way to do that is to already place the brushes in the right place in-editor. 
And 
That can help you light the thing better, to stop dark patches etc.

So you can place it wherever you like, where it'll be lit properly, but the paths in the correct place.

That's assuming it doesn't need to carry vores though. 
Does 
Anyone have a method for finding a missing enemy?

I've got one left over and can't find him - there's spawning going on so most likely I'm not calling one that is spawned.

I tried reading the .sav but it lists everything - there doesn't seem to be a way to search the correct term. 
 
Could be a zombie that is knocked down below water and can't get up. I've seen that before. 
No Zombies 
That reminds me to put a fix in for stuck zombies though. 
 
What fix would that be? I had a huge problem with stuck zombies in the warehouse section of White Room. 
Func_breakable And Rubble Texture 
I'm using the func_breakable from qouth. If I set the rubble texture to glass the rubble isn't textured in-game. What could be the cause of this? 
Ijed 
you should check the save file, look for health value, every dead monster has negative health value[something like this]
"classname" "monster_army"
"model" "progs/soldier.mdl"
....
....
....
"health" "-10.000000"

alive monster will have positive h/val. 
Well 
What I have in mind is adding to an unused field for each time the zombie tries and fails to get up, like ammo_shells.

If ammo shells reaches 3 then the zombie gibs itself. If it gets up then it resets ammo_shells to 0. 
 
Oh, a code solution, OK. I thought there was some map trick you were doing. :) 
The Answer 
Email it to AguirRe and ask him ;P 
 
Well, there's a gameplay solution - when the zombie moans (trying to get up) you can kill it then with an explosion.

And yeah, I should have just mailed AguirRe in the first place. 
About That Func_train Thing ... 
It's with the going up and down that the trouble starts. When the train goes up again the entities fall true. MadFox, your example map runs perfect, thanks, only my idea was to make it run in a (seemingly) random manner, so the player will have to look where to shoot. So I made all my path_corners look like a vertical line in the XY view and sort of W shaped in the YZ view. Maybe I'll use your idea and make it move in a straight horizontal line than, I don't know. Anyway, thanks for all your help, people. I think another month or so and I'm finally ready to send this map to the world. 
Ron 
I made another setup with the example.
I think you could make the cage thing with the clip brush. Then bullets fly through, but the Vore will be centered to the func_train.
It rides every angle you want.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/mvore0.zip 
Fantastic ! 
MadFox, you did it !
This is really great, Thanks a lot ! 
 
Madfox the skull you made in arcus is fucking working real nice... the model is very perfect... i like it a lot!

visualy and in gameplay.

You are improving a lottttttttt in .mdls :)

keep the good work! 
Yeah 
just don't forget to retexture the head mdl, when gibbed its still greenish
http://www.celephais.net/board/icons/icon4.gif 
Ha! 
Ron, map on!

Trinca, when making the hangar with the zdoom models you warned me not to change Quake. RLOF.
But indeed, I start loving modeling more than mapping, except the texturing.

I'm an average player, and the Enforcer has got a real bite on me. I mean, quake is fantasy so where are the other magic players like scrag, hellknight and vormit and ogre?
Killing a soldier or Enforcer still feels wrong.

Spy - it was on the last moment I found out how to change the skin of Bones. Before that I spend evenings pointing pixel by pixel.
I had the alpha skin from Q3 in stead of the original.
Louis told me that the idle and attack sounds
are switched. I'll see for that. 
Madfox 
Are you following the tickets in RQ for NPC's? 
Some 
They come in that amount I mostly check the last ones. I'm still not familiar with the remake quake. I played some maps, and I'm working on the watermon.map

I'm trying to create a frogman, an amphibian, but combining the start_monster_walk and start_monster_swim is a hard bone. 
Not Too Hard 
movetogoal() will take into account whatever flags the monster has the frame when it's called, so it's just a matter of adding and removing FL_SWIM from self.flags.
deciding under what conditions to do it is the only hard part, but you can use pointcontents(vector org) to determine what the monster is in. 
Madfox 
NPC's should be able to handle that. 
No Diehard 
Trying to add a sprite to a models attack is already a big job for me, so I know on what thin ice I'm stumbling.

Me trunk hardly knows what NPC's are. 
Read The Ticket 
 
Stupid Fish. 
Does anyone know how to create a simple fish pond that looks somewhat realistic? What I really need is a pool of water that looks like the hole it is in has been dug up by hand...

Ideas?
Tutorials? 
What The Fuck? 
 
 
I guess put some brushes in the level and move the verts around until it looks good? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. 
Probably... 
you'd want to add some mounds of earth around the rim of the pond. For general techniques, search for "triangle method" terrain, that might be what you want. 
That's It 
You make the terrain out of wedges, then lower and raise verts to get what you need. Wedges are more difficult to break by vertex manipulation than rectangles.

Garden gnomes you can export from a 3d package - Qme can get you there with enough patience. Other features like a gazebo, rockery or magic waterfall + rainbow are a bit more complicated.

Oh yeah, and fish will most likely get stuck on the sloping edges of the pond. 
Fdsa 
fdsafdsafdsa 
Also 
tetrahedrons are impossible to break. 
Tough Motherfuckers, 
Thats for sure. More difficult to use though.

I tried developing a decent rock strategy for them but things got a bit too organic - everything ended up becoming a slope. and adding to it just decreased the inclination.

clockworkdroog:

http://www.katsbits.com/htm/tutorials/trisouping.htm

Apparently the method is called trisoup - which sounds stupid, but there you go. 
Perfect. 
Thanks for the help. 
Trisoup 
"trisoup" usually implies an aribtrary pile of triangles with no regular connectivity. At the very least when you make terrain out of triangles, you're probably at least making one continous sheet. And usually people arrange the triangles into a grid, so you end up with a pretty well-ordered array of triangles, basically a heightmap. 
Yeah 
A trisoup would have them intersecting, I assumed. Technically would work just as well if you stuck to a decent sized grid, but would be a mess to work with. 
'pitch Roll Yaw' Is A LIE!!!!!! 
agh, how many times will i be deceived by the stupid 'pitch roll yaw' explanation in the quakec comments and quake.def file. It's pitch yaw roll, damnit. 
Heh Heh Heh Heh Heh 
Rollin' 
Getting Back Into Mapping! 
I've installed WC 1.6 to keep things old school.
Something blocking the oldschoolness of my map making is the fact that my copy of quake now resides in my steamapps folder. Perhaps this is why I get this message when I try to compile my map?

nput file: C:\Program.map
Output file: Files\Steam\steamapps\common\quake\id1\maps\square01.bsp
---- LoadMapFile ----
*** ERROR 34: Failed to open C:\Program.map: No such file or directory

Elapsed time : 0:00

Peak memory used : 0.0 MB

** Executing...
** Command: Change Directory
** Parameters: C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\quake


** Executing...
** Command: C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\quake\quake.exe
** Parameters: -window +map square01

Hope I'm not retardedly missing something obvious.
Thanks! 
 
I'm guessing it's upset about spaces in path names so that "C:\program files\..." gets truncated to "c:\program". Try installing into a path without any spaces in the name.

Or, if possible, try to surround your paths with quotation marks but that's probably not going to work in this context. 
 
just keep everything inside c:\quake\id1\maps and nothing can go wrong. tools, source, everything. 
You Can't 
What you have to do is make the path name absolute - with a " at the start and end, that way it forces the spaces to be visible to shitty windows.

So

C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\quake

Becomes:

"C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\quake" 
So 
You're suggesting I add quotes on either end of the directory in the 'game' tab, correct? this isn't working.
I didn't have these problems with the steam version of half life, but I was the newer version of hammer, not worldcraft. Maybe I'll try wc 3.3... 
Hm 
Worked for me . . . 
Cool 
Now its working, though worldcraft is telling me that my map wasn't built.

Whatever. I can play my maps now, thanks guys! 
Stupid Question 
Is there any engine whose software renderer works in WinXP? 
Vanilla Winquake And 
aguirre's winquake should work in winxp 
 
winquake.exe 
Joequake 
has a software engine. You get two executables in the file. A GL engine and a software one. It works pretty good IIRC. 
SW Render 
Hmmm, must be something with my setup. Every engine crashes right after creating the window, with some variation on the "illegal memory write" error.

I wonder if the assembly code doesn't quite work on AMD? 
 
JoeQuake and stuff should work no problem, perhaps you should update your graphics card drivers? Or DirectX.

I'm quite sure your AMD CPU is 100% compatible with the assembly code in SW Quake. 
Figured It Out 
Had to turn off Data Execution Protection - apparently the sw renderer uses self-modifying code. I remember now I had to do the same thing to get Unreal to run. 
Preach 
Shouldn't it be possible to manually define the volume of a point (notnull?) trigger with absmin/absmax/size ? 
I Was 
Thinking of that for triggers without models. 
Afraid Not 
All the important setup for a trigger is done in the qc function InitTrigger in subs.qc. Half way down this function is:

setmodel (self, self.model); // set size and link into world

Any call to setmodel will reset the values of absmin and absmax from the values read from the map. If no model is set, they go back to equal the origin of the entity.


What you can do here is specify any other precached model in the model field of the notnull in order to give it that size. For example, using progs/player.mdl will give a trigger with the dimensions of the player.

If you set the model field to be *2, it will use the second brush model in the bsp file for the extents of the trigger. This is valuable if you already have a trigger of the desired size in the map, but want to create another without using a precache. Be warned that in order to get the trigger in the right place, you need to set the origin of the notnull to equal: the offset of the desired location from the position of the original trigger. 
Great 
That's absolutely sufficient (more than I hoped for). A map's standard item loadout already offers a good variety of possible sizes then. From weapon models for small triggers to Ogre/Shambler models for larger ones.
In my case, I can simply use the model of the very item the trigger is supposed to encompass (Quad) - saving precaches is vital here. 
Ok, But Be Warned... 
That'll probably get you a similarly sized trigger, but it might not be exactly the same size. This is because the notnull bases the size on the extents reported by the model file. But the quad itself follows up setmodel with

setsize (self, '-16 -16 -24', '16 16 32');

which gives it nice integer dimensions. Also, it has the FL_ITEM flag, which makes it slightly easier for players to collide with it (I'm being vague about that because I've never bothered looking up exactly how that works).

As a final warning, the size you get from setting a model may not be consistent across engines. Certain custom engines (*cough* *cough* darkplaces) have in the past reported different dimensions to regular quake. Admittedly, I've only noticed this with a sprite, but it might bother you. 
 
DP seems to handle mdls differently, indeed (though I didn't do much testing, either). What definitely works is using the model of a large ammo pack.
I couldn't get brush models to work for some reason. The offset thing means bottom/right/back corner, right? Or across the entire map?! I tried to use the model of the func_door beneath the item, but it wouldn't spawn anywhere near it (if at all). And triggers are not even assigned a model number?! 
Heh Btw 
Too bad powerup_touch + items 4194304 + super_damage_finished 360 doesn't work except for the status bar change. 
You Missed Soemthing 
When you touch the quad,it sets another variable. Take a look in items.qc

But there's no way to pass this onto the player when they touch it... 
Brush Models 
Suppose that the minimum point of the existing brush model is at posA, and that you want the new entity to have it's minimum point at posB. You need to set the absolute origin of the info_notnull to be (posB - posA)

eg: existing entity has minimum at '2048 128 0' and you want a new one at '2048 256 0', then place the info_notnull at '0 128 0'. Notice that the origin of the notnull is nowhere near either the new or old triggers.

Another way of thinking about it is that the existing brush entity has it's origin at '0 0 0', so you need to place the new one relative to that offset.

Triggers are assigned model numbers, although they lose them pretty quickly in the code. If you make a quick mod where the last two lines of InitTrigger are commented out then you can see where they are. You might find it easier to look up the model numbers in the ent file that from the engine though. 
I See 
Thanks for clearing that up.

The ent file has all model numbers indeed - I only looked at the edicts list before. 
Modeling 
As there's still not a modeling help toppic, a bit underestimated job I suppose, I'm caught with the next error.
Made a model, fixed the base skin frame, and after texturing the model starts mirroring the back and forsight.

The only thing I can do is deleting the triangle, and merge the vertices back again in the hope they'll return back in order.
Sometimes this works, sometimes not. But as I started the same model from start, I end up with a large collektion dummies with all kind of failure. And as long as I have no correkt base frame for texturing the rest of modeling is useless.

What do I do with triangles coming back up, but are divided in a lot of thin texture lines? Does QMLE scale the triangle so small the original text grid is lost, or am I looking at the inside if the triangle?
Or what to do when the model keeps mirroring the skinfile? 
Door To Teleporter 
In order to save some more edicts, I changed a monster teleporter room from individual teleport ents to a monster-drop setup. Ran into trouble, wasted hours, changed stuff around and eventually managed to get it into a semi-working state.
Anyway, just to get an idea what the problem was: the original setup had the monsters move down on a func_door until they touched the teleport ents on the floor. However, instead of teleporting to their destination, they would somehow got caught in a loop, creating a tfog fireworks, took damage from the door (block) and died. What could have been wrong here? 
 
They got their fat asses stuck in the transdimensional netherlands. 
Door Problem 
That's quite a stumper, I have to admit. Unless it's some weird case in the engine physics, setorigin being called in a touch function being called inside MOVETYPE_PUSH physics, but that must occur under other circumstances...

Have you tried reversing the direction of the setup, with the teleporter in the ceiling, and the func_door moving upwards? Setting it up this way round also means the monsters can't all fall straight into the teleporter one after another. 
Arrgh 
Of course, that won't work because then the pile of monsters are just stuck, forget that. 
Not Sure... 
but I tried a monster stack once and they had to be triggered in order to fall onto the teleport. Otherwise, they just stood there in thin air. 
All You Gotta Do Is...jump! 
They only run physics once you wake them up and they try to move. So I wonder if running a monsterjump trigger pushing 1 unit downwards would be enough to make the monsters respond to falling physics correctly? Since firing a teleport sets force_retouch, they should all try to jump again the frame after a monster succeeds in teleporting. It does add another entity to the count though... 
Yep.. Another Mystery Solved 
generic: Stacking monsters (add a self-removing func_wall for neatness, to avoid walkmonster-in-wall-related issues) and waking them up to drop has downsides: the player can't here their wakeup sound and there's a risk of telefragging - which is why I'm slowly lowering them on the teleporters. 
Yes 
I live in the netherlans..,
now looking for my threedimensional ass. 
Ah! 
I see. 
Teleporter Doors 
Well I have recently done the same with doors and teleporters to come under the edicts max.

I just made the dors go down into the teleporters with the monsters, and have had no faults with this setup. 
Keeping Preach Employed Even In Times Of Crisis 
Mental exercise :)

My plan for the boss battle included the spike_touch trick with the owner field set to the player in order to stop the monsters from infighting and refocus on the player every few seconds. Problem is, each monster seems to need its own trigger (three, they move around in an arena) which then only works once. Placing three large triggers in one spot only works for one monster, the others remain unaffected. Is there a way to make this work?


Hrimfaxi: Hmm, probably related to the way I set this up then. Don't think it has to do with the destination side, but possibly of the point teleporters or the shelf-shaped door.. 
Thinking 
I can kinda almost see a way to do that, but there's one little snag, where I need some function that sets self.movetype to fly or noclip, without setting any kind of model. I'll keep hunting for something like that, maybe post tomorrow... 
.mdl To .map 
Is it possible to export a .mdl (for a given frame) to .map ? any idea how to do it ? 
Working Link For Quoth2 Fgd? 
 
Quoth 2 
Check Kell's website http://kell.quaddicted.com/ 
Where Is It? 
I checked there already and couldn't find it - probably just blind, but it wasn't in the quoth editing section, and I didn't see it in the main part either.
I know that Ijed had made one up and posted it on quaddicted.com, but can't seem to find that either. I guess I'll keep looking! 
Have It 
http://www.btinternet.com/~chapterhonour/quoth2.fgd

It should end up on the main site eventually. 
Yeah 
Found it a minute ago, thanks! 
Preach 
Any success?
Not a big deal if it doesn't work, just would've added a nice little twist to the combat (-> Shambler+Vore with having one another set as owner, Fiend to used as a living shield and temporary diversion). 
Sorry... 
It's not going to be possible. The reason is actually buried in why the trigger disappears after one use. The spike_touch function has to remove the touching spike once it's done. So I had a look to see if there was an alternative function which didn't have this side effect.

Sadly, the only functions which do damage where the inflictor is different to the attacker always remove the inflicting entity at the same time. This property is key to how the attack from the info_notnull gets the monster mad at a different entity(the owner of the notnull). So it isn't possible to continue doing it multiple times.

If it's any compensation, I did discover a very cool hack on the way, which I hope to share with a testmap this weekend... 
Ah Ok 
Looking forward to the new hack, though. Means that my question wasn't totally fruitless. 
Re: Engine Standards 
Fitzquake brightens up the models heavily, while they are only dimly lit in Glquake. If I increase the light to make them look remotely acceptable in GL, they are almost fullbright in Fitz. Or conversely, models that look right in Fitz are barely visible in GL. This makes the pent-over-the-void secret almost a Fitz-exclusive. Fark off, both of you... 
You Been Reading 
Irvine Welsh Negke? 
No, But It Also Affects The Shubs Which Is The Real Problem 
A tip for bringing down the edictcount: info_player_deathmatch entities are not removed in a single player game, so remember to give them spawnflags 1792. This will break the DMSP mod, though. 
Question 
using aguirre's tools, how does one do an entity compile on a bsp when one already has the bsp and a .ent file
(I used bspinfo to generate a .ent, edited it, and now want to recompile the map). 
Really Dont Know Man 
Email him? I would :) 
Worldcraft 
Compile window has the only entity option, although you have to suffer the window itself.

Otherwise should be in the docs on his site. 
Tronyn 
txqbsp -onlyents mapname.ent

If that doesn't work, rename the .ent to .map and try again. 
Negke: 
But, fitzquake only emulates the original software lighting, which glquake deviates from. Since so many played glquake for so long, you could argue that the "standard" is dim lighting and lack of fullbrights, but at least fitzquake has those options if you know the right cvars.

For a mapper, there's no good solution other than making a map that is 99% enjoyable on any engine, even if a few things are less than ideal on some engines. 
Cool 
Thanks guys. Also if anyone else wants to volunteer to test, the more the merrier (I have 3 testers atm, along with others who are in on the project(s) like PM, or are consultants/observers (ijed). 
Last Hack Question For This Map (hopefully) 
Almost had this working but now my mind is too messed up and I'm tired of trial and error'ing my way through Quake logic.
What I need is a single entity that simulates an item pickup upon triggering: use the model, play the sound, remove itself.

"classname" "info_notnull"
"origin" "-140 1256 -152"
"targetname" "red_arena"
"think" "InitTrigger"
"use" "multi_use"
"killtarget" "red_arena"
"noise" "items/armor1.wav"
"modelindex" "233"
"model" "progs/armor.mdl"
"skin" "2"
"delay" ".2"
"nextthink" "9999"


This doesn't work obviously - what's the right think/use function to use here? 
Duh 
Didn't see the forest for the trees yesterday.
This one works:

"classname" "info_notnull"
"origin" "-140 1256 -152"
"use" "multi_trigger"
"touch" "SUB_Null"
"noise" "items/armor1.wav"
"modelindex" "233"
"model" "progs/armor.mdl"
"skin" "2"
"targetname" "red_arena"
"killtarget" "red_arena"
"delay" ".1"
 
Building Ladders In Worldcraft 3.3 
Hi,
can anyone help me out and tell me how to build ladders in quake?
I'm using worldcraft 3.3 but cant find out how to build ladders o_0
Any help would be appreciated. 
Ladder Trick 
Make a set of clip brush 'stairs' - the clip texture makes them invisible. Each step should be 16 units high, but only 2 units wide.

The player moves up vertical space instantly so the steep stairs will move the player up whilst they cross the small horizontal space.

You could also make the stairs out of normal brushwork, but I'm guessing you want something that looks like a ladder as opposed to steep, infinitly thin steps.

To have a proper ladder - climbing down, normal speed movement etc. you need code Quoth has ladders, as will RQ. 
Result! 
WC 3.3 working on windows vista / ATI -

http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/pop.php?opengl32

Drop the file into your wc folder. Which most likely you installed onto another machine and then copied to your vista machine.

Ah, progress. 
That's 3.3 Btw 
 
And Fix For 
Selection in the 3d window. 
Ok 
But it's adapting the UV's to the visible verts, so turning the camera causes an acid trip. As in texture distortion within the face. 
Wc 3.3 Texture Conversions 
never work for me, no matter the wad. trying to use ikbase - won't work. there are no textures too large in that file, so I'm not sure why it isn't automatically converting. Not too handy with tex mex, either. is there a simple way to convert wad files other than the program provided with bakers wc 3.3 installer?
I'm almost sure there is an obvious solution right in front of my nose, but I'm too burnt out to see it. 
Same Problem Myself 
 
Drew 
just load the wad file with texmex, then go to file ->save copy -> save to wad3
this should do the trick, as i'm usually do it

http://www.imagebam.com/image/8d9f3b38459316 
I'll Try It! 
thank spy! 
...nah 
doesn't work.

I need to convert them to hlwad files, not wad3! 
Im Surprised You Cant Get The Worldcraft Quakeadapter Tool 
to work! I never had any problems with it, except if the wad contains over 1000 textures it will fail, or if one of the textures is too big (like >256x256 or something) then it wont work either.

The .wad files must be placed in worldcraft\textures\ then it just works automatically!

Im using XP32 BTW, havent tried other OS's. If you would like me to convert a wad for you and email it to you I would be happy to, just give me a URLs for the wads you want converted! 
Hmm. 
with a hammer3.4 it works fine, maybe wc3.3 a bit differs 
Hey 
I'm using Worldcraft 3.3 and trying to make my first Quake map. Quality wise its pretty visually appealing but I suck whenever it comes to traps and shit(I have the ideas but I cant technically implement them). So I have a question. How do I make a monster teleport in. The only teleport entity I have is info_teleport_destination and that just lets me give a name, not a target... PLEASE help. i have a lot of good maps iw ant to make but this really puts a hault to that. 
Hey You 
I included the MAP (source) file for my last speedmap, here:

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60343

It has several monster teleporters in it. 
To Teleport A Monster 
under standard Quake progs, first you have to make a small box-room away from the main map, put your monster in there. Then make a brush which covers the monster.
Next select the brush and click the "to entity" button (or right click the highlighted brush and select "tie to entity" or whatever it is from there.
Make the brush into a "trigger_teleport", set teleporters target to the name of your teleport_destination, and also give the teleporter a unique "targetname" (the name of the teleporter).
Then make another brush which will be the trigger for the monster teleporting in, so make sure it is in a place where the player will walk into it, and cant walk around it. Highlight this new brush and click on "to entity". Make this one a "trigger_once". Set the target of the trigger_once to be the same as the targetname of the teleporter you have already made.

These "brush entities" you have made will not appear in-game, so it doesnt matter what texture you give them. Most wads contain a texture called "trigger" which has "trigger" written all over it, but this is not necessary, any texture will work. I use the "trigger" texture as a marker so I can see which brushes are entities in my editor.

You can set "keys" of the trigger entitys to do things such as alter the amount of time it takes for the trigger to fire, for example, after the player has touched it, messages you want to appear in the middle of the screen and what sound is to be played (if any) when the trigger is fired. 
Teleporting Monsters Tutorial? 
I really have all these great ideas for maps and traps, and some of them involve teleporting monsters. I am using Worldcraft 3.3 and the only entity I see for telpeporting is info_teleport_destination... is there any help you guys can offer? Basically I want the player to step in a specific area and have an orgre teleported to a certain spot. What do I have to do to get this to happen. I can't seem to get it to work... and I all these great ideas. I would REALLY appreciate it if someone could help :) thanks in advance :D 
Sorry I Lagged Out 
thanks for the teleport help guys, ill try it out. sorry for the lag outs. wernt sure if my messages got through so i posted twice for save keeping. ima go try out these suggetions :D thanks alot 
Ricky 
I'd love the kingpin set and maybe the ikblue... I'd love tons of them to be honest, but those two sound pretty inspiring right now. Thanks, dude! 
OK, Gimme A Little While....... 
(at work) 
OK Success!!! 
That was very hacky!

Yeah - for some strange reason IKBlue wouldnt convert because of two or one weird files within the wad. I had to remove a rather cool door texture (like 8 triangular wedges with symboly on it) and the pallette file to get it to convert.

As for the kingpin textures - well that wouldnt convert and it wouldnt say why! So what I did was open Wally (good old buggy Wally) and make a new package, a half life package (to which it attributes the file extension ".wad" rather than ".hlwad"), than I opened the kingpin .wad in wally, manually select all of the textures (using the left hand index column of Wally), copy them. Then go back into the new package, paste all of the files in. Then I saved this new package.
When I went to the directory through windows to view my new wad, it appeared as a 0Kb file, but when I copied it into another folder it came up as being 23Mb. Then all I did was rename the file from "kpin.wad" to "kpin.hlwad" using windows rename function (right click on file, click rename). Then I tried to load it into Worldcraft and it worked!! Job done!

Weird and annoying NOTE:
First I tried to do this on Windows Vista. Putting the original ikblue and kingpin wads in my worldcraft\textures\ DIR then loading WC brings up the all_wads_to_hlwad tool on startup. In Vista it calls an error for each wad, but wont show any details of either errors. In Windows XP it calls out the error for texuture No. 51, which atleast helped me identify which texture it was causing the problem. I used Wally to remove the bad texture and pallette file and it worked as normal.
But even under XP there was no detailed error report for the kingpin texture.

So in conclusion Drew I would recommend the following method in future:

1 - find your wads of choice

2 - open a copy of Wally: http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/wally_155b.exe

3 - open your first wad to convert

4 - click on "file-> new-> Half Life Package (wad3) (wad)"

7 - when the new empty wad file is opened, go back to the quake wad you are converting, select all of the files using the left hand index column, then drag and drop them into the new package.

8 - save your new package as normal, wherever you want.

9 - close Wally, and navigate to the folder with the new wad inside. Rename the new wad to "title.hlwad"

10 - Go and make a cup of tea! :P

PS - I will email you my results shortly! :) 
Another Question 
ever since i started compling maps ive noticed I cant even see my hud in the quake(I use the ezquake client). did it fuck up my resolution somehow? i mean my resolution is 800 x 600 like its alwayus been. but now part of the console drifts away and flickering where my hud should be. that happens on all hud types, 'classic' 'new' 'combined' and so on. PLEASE can someone help? 
Well 
+ and - make the HUD bigger or smaller, but I doubt that's the problem.

What engine are you using? 
 
ezquake is for Quakeworld. Use Fitzquake for singleplayer: http://www.celephais.net/fitzquake/ 
Well 
the thing is ive always used ezquake for singleplayer before and it only JUST started happening when i began compiling maps. idk what could have gone wrong. its hard to describe. i cant see my HUD, usually whatever i was previously looking at(such as console) fills that in... if you know what i mean, how if you ever float outside a map that kinda thing happens. its relaly really annoying and its completely fucked up my HUD. no idea how to fix it. but yeah ive ALWAYS used Ezquake for everything and its been just fine up until now 
Great 
thanks! 
Ilovequake: 
maybe try gl_clear 0? 
Hmmmmmm 
that makes it a black box with only the numbers shwoing up and other small things where my hud should be ... very very strange................ 
Tools 
My current map is breaking my compile tools in bad ways so I was thinking of upgrading to some better ones. Are these the best available?

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/

And, if so, am I looking for Tx/TreeQBSP or "Enhanced versions of RVis, Light & BspInfo"? Which tools are guys using for large maps currently? 
Both 
And use Tx instead of Tree. 
 
Are you sure? The TX has an older release date than Tree. What's the difference/problem with Tree? 
 
Afaik, aguirRe once mentioned that Tx is the preferable one because of the tjunc calculation (which Tree apparently lacks). 
Yeah 
Your looking in the right place! TxQBSP is proabably considered to be the best (fastest, most stable, extended limits, enhanced bug and error reporting etc, etc, etc). Infact AguirRes light and vis tools are also awesome - the light tool has some fantastic features, and it can even emulate other modified light tools, as well as giving the most hi-res lightmaps for Quake that I think are currently possible!

All Hail AguirRe!! (Mr Yardrup for those who dont know him as AguirRe)

Only problem for you will be running them on OSX, Mac thingeymajig... I think they're all Win32 applications, designed for use with Windows XP.

Seriously though, the TxQBSP is a godsend - used it to compile horrible maps like Sickbase, which were full of errors. 
/me Shows His Amateurish Colours 
 
Hmm 
Yeh, but I'm sure you can use Wine or some other VM on Mac to run the tools fine. And it's not like there's a viable Mac native alternative... 
Alternatively 
Compile them yourself? 
 
He includes source code. I'll convert them to Mac (it's usually just a bunch of warnings that need cleaning up as the id tools are written in portable C) and replace the ones inside of my level editor with those. I remember asking him about that a long time ago and he was cool with it... 
Hmm 
Aaah, I wasn't aware it was that easy to cross-platform compile. Lack of GUI/anything except proprietery math I guess.

But yeh, if it's that simple then that'd blatantly work... 
 
Didn't stevenaus, lazy_bum or gb port aguirre's qbsp and light to linux? That would be a start. 
 
http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/bjptools_linux.zip

I hope that is the latest version.

Willem, some stuff is dependant on Windows system calls, although Bengt always said that he tried to avoid that. The wildcard support in wad names for example. So for convenience I simply cut that.

Treeqbsp was easier to port than Txqbsp. Whatever, I don't have problems with tree - quite the contrary.

If you port Txqbsp, I would be interested in the source. I'd also be interested to know if the current stuff compiles on a Mac.

I planned to multithread the vis using your code, but haven't done so yet due to my whole life being absorbed by that bloated monster over there that was once an innocent little project.

I also want to implement origin brush support, since I seem to be the last man standing on that front, but haven't done so for the same reasons.

Anyway, if you do something, can you upload the source somewhere plz? 
 
It's also a c/c++ mixture so I use g++ to compile, even for the C files. There is some compiler option that makes it possible, look in the makefile plz. 
 
Yeah, I'll do what I did last time ... I'll create XCode projects for the tools and then I can set flags and all that junk pretty easily. Shouldn't be an issue although if there is Windows specific stuff now that will take a little longer. Still, shouldn't be a problem. 
Treeqbsp And Tjuncs 
i've always used aquirre's treeqbsp because I was using the original treeqbsp before aguirre tooke it over.

I think long ago the tree guy stupidly disabled tjunc repair, but later added it back. Or maybe aguirre added it back. Anyway, it should correctly repair tjuncs now, as far as i know... 
Jesus 
So I used your method Ricky, but...

Although the wad file I created shows up in Wally, itdoesn't show up in my computer or worldcraft.
I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out soon enough... 
Nevermind... 
I was being dumb. 
TxTree 
So which one is better then (despite the fact that it probably doesn't matter since both are good)? 
Hello Again, Back With A Problem ... 
Something weird.
The map I'm making crashes most Quake engines on startup. But if I use the Quake-on program to start the map directly (not via Worldcraft)with a mod selected, it works. So I select the Travail or Zer mod in the Available Patches section of Quake-on and then put "Mymap" in the map section, it does work. How can that be ?
I prefer my map to work on it's own, not using other people's mods. 
Well, What Is Teh Crash? 
is there an error message? 
Certainely... 
.. you have missed an option in your command line like -heapsize or -winmem or something like this.
Verify your engine launch command line setup in your editor, and try to reuse it in "standalone"..
It happened to me several times already ;) 
 
With Darkplaces the whole game crashes and the Windows Error Report screen comes up.
With Tomaz I get SZ_GetSpace: overflow without allow overflow set 
SZ_GetSpace: Overflow Without Allowoverflow Set 
These error messages indicate various memory buffers overflowing, typically in the protocol. The

major cause is too many things happening at startup, while playing or when loading saved games,

typically occurring when playing on Hard/Nightmare skill due to more entities.


Load the map with BJP's enhanced engines and in developer mode, it might print more helpful warnings. 
 
Excessive static entities (187, normal max = 128)
,I get in aguirRe engine. It will play the map though. Eventually. I've still got problems with starting aguirRe's Gl Quake, it takes about 5 minutes (!) to start up. I'm in a messy situation at the moment, having just reinstalled my PC and I've also just switched my video drivers. 
Ron: 
aguirre's engine is a good choice for loading maps that crash other engines, which is often caused by exceeding certain limits. Aguirre's engine will load the map and usually explain what limits you've exceeded.

If you have more than 128 static entities, that will reliably crash most engines. Assuming you want your map to be playable in most engines, you will need to reduce that number. Static entities include func_illusionary, light_torch, and other flame/torch entities. 
Note: 
fitzquake 0.85 should also load most limit-breaking maps, you could see if that has a faster load time for you. 
Still Weird Though 
But the thing I don't understand is that it does work, even in DP if I play it through a mod.
Could there custom progs have something to do with it ? Just guessing here, I don't know much about all this stuff. All I know is that I've got a map that's nearly finished and it's (maybe) good enough to show to the rest of the Quake world.

However, I know that I need to learn a lot more about efficient map making if I ever want to become a really good mapper. But I'm not giving up ! :) 
Static Ents Limit Is A Real Pain 
I hit it on my little Coagula map! Its not so bad with base maps, but torches in medevil maps blows it.

I had to remove some torches and add weird lights instead..... 
 
Maybe I could compensate a little using the +0, +1 trick and then adding normal light functions.
I'll try something ... 
 
You could of course get hacky and turn some of the torches into dynamic entities, but replacing them by texture light sources would probably be best. 
Friday After All ... 
Well, I'll leave this for now.
The sun is out and I'm off to the pub.
Have a nice one, thanks for the help ! 
I Don't Get This At All. 
I can create the half life wad using wally. I can see it in wally (AND TEXMEX!) but it doesnt show up in 'my computer' or in worldcraft, even when I change the file extension to .hlwad. I am not enough of a computer dork to wrap my head around what I should do here. this is killing like, 80% of the enjoyment I used to get from mapping. 
Hmmm 
That's weird man.

Where are you saving it to from Wally? 
Drew 
try hammer instead, it's pretty same as wc 
Aguire's Tool's On Os X!? 
Excuse me, I just came in my pants. Hope you can get it working, Willem. 
 
It's my project for the weekend so I'll report back! 
Buttons 
hey i have a quick quesiton. im making a sewage map and i have a slightly discoloured single brick that i want to make shootable(only once) that will open a secret door. could anybody be kind enough to give me a quick little tutorial on that? :P 
Ok 
Make the brick a brush, then make it a button entity and give it a health of 1. The player can't pus it, only damage it, at which point it fires its target - the secret door. 
Yeah 
yeah but for some reason it pushes back then comes right back out. i want to make it so it stays 'shot' and dosnt elt the player shoot it again. since it opens a secret door. ive made it a func_button but i see no option to make it 'shootable once only' or anything in that regard 
 
wait: -1 
Quick Question ... 
The normal "light" entity is not a static entity ? 
 
Normal light ents are only used for lightmap creation (by light.exe) but do nothing in-game. They don't take up any entity slot unless they have a switchable or blinking light style. 
 
Thanks. 
 
Saving the file to c/program files/worldcraft/textures...

Maybe I'll try saving it in the wally folder? 
Hooray For New Tools! 
No, I'm not done yet but I do have TreeQBSP running on OSX and it solved my recent compiling woes. Well, it's hacked together so it works anyway. I need to go back and fix my hacks and smooth out some rough spots before I can call it "done" but at least I can compile my level again.

I'll work on LIGHT and VIS next... Woot! 
Out Of Curiosity... 
What is the standard today in terms of WAD specification? I know that multiple WAD support is a must but is it generally assumed that the worldspawn entity has full paths to the WAD files or are relative paths still expected to work (i.e. "gfx/metal.wad")?

I ask because it's getting hairy trying to support both and would be easier if I could just support full paths. 
Initial BJP Tools Done 
These aren't perfect and require things like full paths for WAD files to work correctly, but they do work on OSX with multithreading support:

http://wantonhubris.com/BJPToolsOSX/

There are binaries in there as well as source code for those who are so inclined. I'll be massaging these a little as I get a new version of my level editor ready for release (one of these months), but these work! 
Willem 
relative paths are prefered. there is a maximum limit to the number of characters you can put in a string, so when using multiple wads, if you had to type in the absolute path all the time, you'd quickly use up those chars. 
 
OK, I'll have to come up with a set of rules about where it looks for everything then. 
Hmm 
Surely just getting it to check the folder the tools are in and <quake root>/gfx should be enough.

That and mebe a default WAD dir settings option added to search locales. 
 
Well, <quake root> and <quake root/mod>. There's a bunch of permutations. I'll figure something out. I'm probably just going to pass the Quake path and the current mod name to the BSP tool to give it a big hint. 
Hmm 
Shit, forgot about mods (again). But yeh, throwing it the Quake path and mod name should let it find the WADs easily without having to search the entire HDD... 
 
That's my current plan. I'm going to pass it the Quake directory and the current mod name. That will allow it to try looking in the gfx folder in the mod, the gfx folder in id1 and if those fail, use whatever it has as a literal path. That should be enough! 
Hmm 
User defined custom 'uber wad folder' path from settings?

(I'm just making suggestions, all my WADs are in the Q3 map folder with my compile tools/batch files) 
Wait... 
is is all this an attempt to avoid supporting both full and relative paths? 
 
It's cool, the code is written now. It support relative and full paths as best it can. Now to add multiple WAD support to ToeTag itself... 
Mapping Isn't All That Easy, Actually ... 
I'm having a bad feeling about my map ever getting finished.

First I got a (new) error, this time in the VIS, a nasty "Vismap expansion overflow".
I thought I'd try something to (try and)fix it, I made large parts into a Func_wall.
The (fast)Vis works OK now.
Only now the Light does not work, I don't get any errors but the level is full bright.

Now I understand the phrase "don't give up your dayjob" 
 
Well, mapping for Quake is actually one of the harder disciplines. Quake is relatively primitive and therefore has many gotchas for stuff that modern engines don't care about. It's very unforgiving at times. :) 
Ron 
Either your map is VERY huge, or it's leaking. Are you using the latest (Bengt Jardrup's) compile tools?
Turning stuff into func_walls has to be done with caution. It lowers the VIS time, but may well be contraproductive in other areas.

A map usually doesn't get fullbright over night (heh). Double-check your settings. Or maybe it's caused by func_walls + skylight.. 
Wait 
You didn't box it, did you? 
Post Your Compile Log 
So we can see it. Beware the maximum post length though, you may have to split it into two halves...

The QBSP log would be the most helpful 
This Is It, Without The Func_wall Trick, 
** Executing...
** Command: Copy File
** Parameters: "E:\Quake\ID1\MAPS\map.map" "e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map.map"


** Executing...
** Command: F:\gametools\WorldCraft\QTools\Qbsp.exe
** Parameters: e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map

TreeQBSP v2.05 -- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

Input file: e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map.map
Output file: e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map.bsp
---- LoadMapFile ----
*** WARNING 06: No info_player_deathmatch entities in level
----+----+
13386 faces
2308 brushes
523 entities
79 unique texnames
2400 texinfo
27 texture frames added

Building hulls sequentially...
Processing hull 0...
---- Brush_LoadEntity ----
----+----+
2041 brushes
---- CSGFaces ----
----+----+
11736 brushfaces
14349 csgfaces
11889 mergedfaces
---- SolidBSP ----
15547 split nodes
6673 solid leafs
8717 empty leafs
158 water leafs
29675 leaffaces
26381 nodefaces
---- FillOutside ----
1177 outleafs
---- MergeAll ----
11626 mergefaces
---- SolidBSP ----
----+----+
7485 split nodes
3251 solid leafs
4188 empty leafs
47 water leafs
19866 leaffaces
15947 nodefaces
---- Portalize ----
4235 vis leafs
15742 vis portals
---- Tjunc ----
15158 world edges
55601 edge points
14249 edges added by tjunctions
2 faces added by tjunctions
---- MakeFaceEdges ----
----+----+
---- GrowRegions ----
Processing hull 1...
----+----+
----+----+
Processing hull 2...
----+----+
----+----+
---- WriteBSPFile ----
7856 planes 157120
22989 vertexes 275868
8326 nodes 199824
2400 texinfo 96000
17343 faces 346860
22072 clipnodes 176576
4994 leafs 139832
21337 marksurfaces 42674
81294 surfedges 325176
41390 edges 165560
106 textures 1737648
lightdata 0
visdata 0
entdata 40467

1 warning

Elapsed time : 0:16

Peak memory used : 22.1 MB

** Executing...
** Command: F:\gametools\WorldCraft\QTools\light.exe
** Parameters: -extra e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map

----- LightFaces ----
extra sampling enabled
523 entities read
lightdatasize: 364948
0 switchable light styles
83.0 seconds elapsed

** Executing...
** Command: F:\gametools\WorldCraft\QTools\vis.exe
** Parameters: -fast e:\Quake\Id1\maps\map

---- vis ----
fastvis = true
4235 portalleafs
15742 numportals
************ ERROR ************
Vismap expansion overflow

** Executing...
** Command: Change Directory
** Parameters: e:\Quake


** Executing...
** Command: e:\Quake\darkplaces.exe
** Parameters: +map map 
OK I See One Possible Explanation: 
You should run the vis tool before you run the light tool!

I would recommend compiling the map using a command prompt (windows "dos box").

Copy your tools (TreeQBSP.exe, vis.exe and light.exe) into your e:\quake\id1\maps\ directory.

Then go through your start menu to Programs=> Accessories=> "Command Prompt"

Type (without the quotes) "cd e:\quake\id1\maps\" then press enter

Then type "TreeQBSP map" (where I noticed that "map" is the name of your map :), press enter and the program will run as normal

Then run vis, i.e. type "vis -fast map" or "vis map" then press enter.

Then run light, so type "light map"

Note: If im telling you things which are obvious to you here please dont be offended.
It is definately risky to run light before vis, and I think that might be the source of your problem.

Awaiting more feedback....... :) 
I Didn't Know That ... 
[quote #8651 posted by RickyT23]
You should run the vis tool before you run the light tool! [/quote]
I didn't know that, I always assumed that WC's standard was the right way. I'll give your suggestion a try.

What do you think about the figures though ?
Are they what you would call high, and is there room for adding stuff ? I still have to put some things in.

PS. it takes a lot to offended me ;), I'm actually very happy with all your help and feedback ! 
 
It is definately risky to run light before vis, and I think that might be the source of your problem.
The order in which one runs them doesn't matter. Both tools create individual data and store them in the BSP - they're independent from each other.

Ron: it seems as though while you're using the new TreeQBSP, it's still the old LIGHT and VIS tools that come with Worldcraft? If that's the case, switch to the BJP ones and see if that helps. 
As For The Figures 
They aren't too high or anything. There's still plenty of room for new stuff. TreeQbsp will tell you if the map exceeds any of the BSP limits. 
Im Sure I Read Somewhere That Light Data 
in a map can screw up the vis process. Maybe im going mad! :)

Ron: Negkes right about the tools, use these tools:

http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/visbjp.zip

Also TreeQBSP is good, but I remember AguirRe saying that TxQBSP was better for some reason, TreeQBSP didnt compile sickbase IIRC.

TxQBSP:

http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/txqbspbjp.zip

:S 
Yeah ! 
I wasn't sure if I was using Bengt Jardrup's Vis and Light's so I downloaded them again. I also did run the programs outside WC in a Dos box, combining both your suggestions. And it worked fine ! The fast Vis worked and Light as well !
And a lot faster too ! Thanks a lot ! Really, I'm quite happy, I've been working so long on this damned map now, it would be rather sad to have to bin it now ... 
From The Log It Looks Like A Pretty Clean Build You Have There! 
The only warning is a superficial one, and with 22000 odd marksurfaces/clipnodes it must be a fairly large or detailed map :)

This is a useful source of info regarding Quake 1 mapping tools, buy AguirRe:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/tooltips.txt

try runnning the bspinfo tool on your map too see the limits and how close you are to them...

Also post some screenshots please :DDD 
 
"The order in which one runs them doesn't matter. Both tools create individual data and store them in the BSP - they're independent from each other."

This is my understanding as well. If anyone has any concrete information about why vis should be run before light, I'd love to hear it.

AFAIK, as negke said, they are totally independent of each other. 
The Other Thing 
You can do is alpha testing - send your source to an established mapper who's already had to battle through the compile issues, they'll be able to point out known issues.

The less time you spend banging your head against a wall and the more time inventing cool stuff the better.

Don't know how much time I'll have this week, but probably by thursday I can take a look if you want - my emails under 'people'. 
Thanks Once More ... 
To Rick: I'll run the bspinfo tomorrow or later this evening, I'm now doing a full vis, it's at 47.19 % at the minute and I've still got an estimated 7h 44 minutes to go. I think I will kill some time (and probably braincells too...) in the pub ! As for screenshots, I'll try to get some of more or less finished areas later. I have still got to do quite a bit of texture alignments and stuff like that to do. I don't want to post anything that's just not quite, ehm, good enough.

To Ijed: Thanks for your very generous offer !
I really appreciate it, and, if the offer still stands and you have time, I will gladly make use of your expertise. But to be honest, at the moment I'm back in and will battle on until the next problem arises.

Thank you all. You've made my day ! :) 
You Know It May Well Take More Than 10 Hours 
for the vis to finish, it will slow down as it nears completion!
I once had a map which took 6 and a half days to vis. And JPL, well he's the current record holder........

It must mean that the map has some large areas in it with a fair bit of detail, or some tiny details in it, or that there are places where you can see through a lot of rooms from some angles.... 
 
There are some basic tips to follow like - if you have gratings make out of brushes, func_wall them because each hole in the grating is a portal and VIS will need to process it and all of it's children. Very nasty.

The same goes for railings, cages, barred windows, etc. 
 
The only drawback there is if you were counting on cool shadows to be cast. In that case, well, suck it up and eat the VIS time. :) 
 
That said, I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a version of light that would cast light from func_walls (optionally, of course). If you aren't going to be removing the func_wall at some point through a killtarget, it seems perfectly reasonable to use it as a shadow caster. 
Hmm 
Something for you to do next weekend... 
 
Good job on the tools Willem. Multiplatform ftw.

This is my understanding as well. If anyone has any concrete information about why vis should be run before light, I'd love to hear it.

Some of the light programs use vis information to do quicker lighting. I think Lord Havoc's tool does this. Not sure on bjp's.

Some tests seemed to indicate that bjp's vis does more effective culling than others, btw. 
 
That said, I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a version of light that would cast light from func_walls

This has been on my compiler wishlist for a few years, along with other stuff like self-shadowing bmodels, global illumination, minlight on bmodels, light contribution caching for fast re-lighting after small lighting changes, "manual vis" (as used in medal of honor), portal-based vis (a static variant of the portal visibility used in doom3), hard-edged shadows, cubemapped lights, shambler clip brushes (hull2 only), nonsolid brushes (hull0 only), etc. I have hacked up the compiler sources a little bit over the years, but never enough to produce anything finished enough to release. (seriously, not even finished enough that i could use it for everyday mapping.) 
 
Even if that were true, lighting is very rarely the bottleneck. I suppose it could be cool if you were wanting to do fast iterations on lighting or something though... 
Multiple WADs 
I'm not familiar with how editors work with multiple WADs so as I add support for them into ToeTag, I'm going to have a few questions. Heh.

OK, so if you load up 2 WADs that have a texture inside of them with the same name, what happens? Say you load WAD1 and WAD2 and they each have a texture called BLAH -- what do level editors commonly do about that? Hold them both? Only use the first one they see? 
WC 
will show all of them in alphabetical order, and it will show two of any textures the same. So when I have a load of IDbase wads loaded there are often two or three of each of the common textures in a row on the display...... 
 
Excellent info, thanks!

OK, so how does the UI work for Worldcraft?

How do you load multiple WADs? How do you unload a WAD you no longer want (or can you)? Are you just editing the worldspawn key/values or is there an actual dialog box for it? 
You Go To Tools=> Options 
Which brings up a dialogue with several tabs ranging from 2d diplay options, your build programs, and one of them "is textures". Here you find a list of your current wads and the options to remove any you have highlighted and to load other wads. You can load as many wads as you like,and they will appear straight away in your textures. Removing a wad from the list requires a restart.
You cant actually see any textures from here.
You get to see all of the textures whenever you enter "texturing mode" (or whatever they call it). If you enter texture mode via a button on the left margin of the screen. If you press the button with brushes highlighted then all of the faces of those brushes become highlighted. A 90 degree right angle symbol appears in the middle of each face to make it easy to see what angle it is at.
A small dialogue appears near the right of the screen with a picture of the current texture on it. Beneath the texture are all of you alignment buttons (left, right, mcenter, top, bottom, fit) and your integer fields for x and y scaling and x and y position, and angle. There is a button beneath the picture of you current texture to open a window where you can see all of the textures you have loaded, and select another one. You can narrow the textures being shown to you by typing letters in a sort of search field.

As for the worldspawn, you never have to worry about that, WC just adds the correct paths into the worldspawn whenever it exports its RMF format into a MAP file. Along with a nice annoying key "mapversion" which it gives the value "220" and you have to remove it manualy (unless you have the utility "nomapversion.exe") :P 
 
Oh OK, so it's a global setting and not set up per map. Alright, thanks! 
Heh, I Can't Stop 
Suppose this won't work, but asking anyway:

A push that only works when being touched from a certain direction like regular triggers with an angle field? Perhaps with a movedir/angles combo, or bastardized use of trigger_push_touch? 
Same Textures In Multi-wads 
I was making some custom wads lately with the same textures in them and the BSP editor i'm using shows just one of them (a 2 frame animation). I was wondering though, has anyone been able to load a 512 by 512 texture in their editor? The biggest i got to see and use are 128 by 512, and 256 by 256. The wad i made with a 512 by 512 texture shows correctly in a wadviewer i got, but shows up as a 32 by 32 white texture in BSP. 
Nvidia Driver Conflict With WC 1.6 
This is just as a heads up for anyone still using Worldcraft 1.6 (myself) and who has the latest nvidia drivers. Apparently, if your driver version is anything higher than 182.50, your 3d view in WC will look something like this:

http://qrf.mine.nu/~orl/misc/wc.png

However, enabling the hardware acceleration option will fix the 3d view problem, unfortunately that also raises the other problem of not being able to select any object within the 3d view.

Again, anything higher than version 182.50 of the nvidia driver will result in WC's 3d view going crazy, and essentially useless. 
Wait 
you can make triggers only work from a specific angle!? 
Play 
Negke's tall map - Skinny Norris I think it's called. Have to take the puzzle route.

To have an angle trigger make the angle something other than 0. 
Orl 
Find the openGL.dll that I posted earlier in the thread and put it in your wc folder. It might fix the problem. 
Drew, Ijed 
Or simply: the start map ("this hall selects.." triggers) 
 
Wow, I NEVER noticed that the start map triggers did that. All these years, so weird... 
Ijed 
Sorry, but I can't seem to locate the openGL.dll you had mentioned. I checked this Mapping Help thread, but found nothing. Care to point me in the right direction? 
Pipes And Curves 
czg's curve tutorial, does someone have a link to it with the pictures intact?

Wouldn't this and the hiprotate tutorial be something to archive at quaddicted? 
 
Try this gb:

http://shub-hub.com/files/misc/Curve_tutorial_files.zip

I think that's the one. 
Thanks 
.

That's it, indeed. I can never remember this stuff :-P 
 
maybe a dumbass question. working on a sm, tested it out - a door moves. perfect right? added some more stuff, now it doesn't trigger.
its a lowering platform, and a setpiece that I need to keep. any ideas whats going on here? 
 
you said it was a lowering platform, which would imply it's pretty big.
are there any doors that come close to intersecting it? it might be linking. 
 
Yeah

Try the "door dont link spawnflag" on this door and any other doors near it....... 
QBSP Error 
Help! What could be the problem here??

TxQBSP 1.13 -- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

Inputfile: trinca/genitals.map
Outputfile: trinca/genitals.bsp
------ LoadMapFile ------
18 faces
3 brushes
2 entities
3 miptex
8 texinfo

Building hulls sequentially...
Processing hull 0...
------ Brush_LoadEntity ------
----+----+
3 brushes read
------ CSGFaces ------
----+----+
18 brushfaces
18 csgfaces
18 mergedfaces
------ SolidBSP ------
************ ERROR ************
SubdivideFace: Didn't split the polygon near (0 0 4), caralho1_2

1 warning

Elapsed time : 0:00

Peak memory used : 0.1 MB 
Looks Like A Fault QBSP 
It should process CZGFaces, not CSGFaces! 
Trinca/genitals.bsp 
rofl 
 
negke miss my penis -:|

u�re such a hore! 
Negke 
Texture may be scaled too small, if I remember well... Check aguirRe's tool tips 
Orl 
http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/pop.php?opengl32

That's the 'fix' put it in your WC folder.

It basically retards the software to use old drivers. It might work.

Apparently there's other solutions, like using virtual machines etc. 
Negke: JPL Is Right 
Thats a texture too small. At "0, 0, 4", right in the middle of your map.

Fow Show

Payce 
JPL, Ricky 
I know. 
Hmm 
Texture may be scaled too small

That or the fact it's only 3 brushes (I'm guessing two spheres and a tube...?) 
Nonentity 
like this 8====D ?

smartass :P 
Fuck 
yeah, yeah. of course. 
To Get Rid Of That Error 
you should change the map title 
 
caralho1_2
i'd like to see that texture ;) 
Ijed 
Using the old opengl32.dll didn't work, unfortunately. The problem still persists. 
No Fix Then 
ATI / Valve barstuds. 
No Fix... 
It's actually Nvidia but yeah, bastards. I don't even see how this driver update manages to screw with the 3d view, since I don't have it set to use hardware acceleration. Wouldn't it just use the CPU to render the 3d view?

I don't know, and I can't use old drivers forever. 
 
Orl i never had problems with nvidia :| and i always had nvidia grafic cards 
Orl 
try to disable desktop effects 
Rudl 
Like what, exactly?

The only thing I can think of is aero, and aero has no conflict with Worldcraft, as old as it is. 
Orl 
Radiant needs desktop compositing to be turned off to work properly in Vista. This will disable Aero while the program is running. Recent versions of NetRadiant do this automatically. You never know, it might work... 
Lardarse 
But I'm not using Radiant. I am using Worldcraft 1.6.

But alright, I'll accept the fact that there is no fix for this, and that Nvidia is solely to blame. This is not a Vista issue in any way, Worldcraft works perfectly fine in Vista. This is Nvidia's doing. 
I Blame 
society caused this, Orl. 
Destroy Vista 
I'm drunk, &#1103; &#1087;&#1100;&#1103;&#1085;, &#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1085; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086; &#1087;&#1080;&#1087;&#1077;&#1094; &#1089; &#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1092;&#1086;&#1085;&#1072; &#1089;&#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;&#1100; &#1090;&#1091;&#1090;, &#1086;&#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086; &#1087;&#1100;&#1103;&#1085;&#1077; 
Orl 
I can't use old drivers forever
Do you have an older card? If so, using the latest drivers is not always recommendable. 
It 
Upgrade to WC3.3?

If both ATI and Nvidia have problems then it seems stupid to blame two different companies - maybe the software architecture is just bad. 
Negke And Ijed 
My current card is an 8800gt, only about 2 years old. Why wouldn't upgrading to the latest drivers be a good idea?

I haven't tried WC 1.6 with an ATI card, do you know if it has the same problem, or a similar problem? 
Let Face It Here: 
WC 1.6 is a very old program, designed for Windows98. In WC3.3 I have occasionally encountered a bug where you cant select faces in the 3D view, and you can then only grag the view around in the 2D views and cant select anything. Rebooting the computer fixes the error. I always use the latest drivers for my 8800 card, in XP32. Forceware 186.16 is the current stable build, and works fine for me.
Orl - I recommend you make the transition to 3.3 because it has many other improvements over 1.6/1.6a, i.e. texture lock works properly etc 
Orl 
Because at some point drivers tend to put the focus on new(er) cards and contain changes that may result in worse performance (or even glitches) for old(er) ones. So sometimes it's wise to stick with an older version if it works fine (and if newer ones don't seem to bring any visible gain).
I don't know how it is with a 8800gt (or two year-old cards) - it takes a bit of experimenting with driver version. 
WC3.3 
Is worth the change overall. The texture control is a huge bonus.

It has its quirks, but you get used to them. The only ballache is converting the textures, that is automated thanks to Baker's pack, but when it doesn't work it's frustrating. 
Couple Of Questions About Skip Tool 
skip textured brushes cast shadows?
skip can be run after aguire's q1 tools? 
 
Yes.
Yes. 
Sweet 
going to build a shadow mesh for a large door out of skip then.

... except that i just realized... skip will cause the interior to be void... when the origin of the door travels through the skip brush, it might flicker or disappear? o.o 
Er... 
Also players may find it hard to walk through the opened door with skip brushes there. 
Also.... 
in software renderer, a func_door surface that is coplanar with a structural skip surface will not be drawn. So make your shadowcaster thinner than the func_* object.

And what preach said, the skip will be collidable, so hopefully you have a plan for dealing with that :) 
And... 
your door won't disappear as long as part of the bounding box is inside a visible leaf. 
Oh So 
it is the bounding box that determines visibility then.
i guess i should have realized that. :P

thanks for clearing that up, and yes, it wouldn't be used for an actual door, but things like extending bridges (that aren't accessible anyway) or towers that move as well as rotaters. 
Yet More Questions.. 
aguire's light.exe.
does it support coloured lighting normally?
i see that it supports -tyrlite95 which is supposed to do coloured lighting, but i can't seem to figure out how to actually get it to generate a .lit file.
also, is the spawn key '_color' or 'color'? 
Necros 
aguirRe's light tool does not support colored lights by default AFAIK. You would need to add the "-tyrlite95" in order to enable it, but I never tested this feature. I also guess you need to add a "-lit" option in your command line in order to enable .lit file generation, but I'm not sure. Also, the spawn key is "_color"...
Experimentation is the better school there ;) 
Well 
i messed with it yesterday, but it doesn't seem to actually work.

-tyrlite95 works, that alone doesn't generate a .lit.
according to the tyrlite docs, you're right, you need -lit before it generates anything. unfortunately, -lit is an invalid command line arg for aguirre's light. :S

so it looks like it's either use the real tyrlite and make do without sunlight stuff and delay 5 lights, or colours. :P 
Necros 
Other solution is to ask aguirRe about his modified tyrlite light tool.... I'm using it actually... The only penalty is it does not support the second sunlight.. but is it really a problem ? 
JPL 
Modified Tyrlite light tool!?!?

I hit an "entities" limit (of 2048 I think) with the last map. Does the modified tool allow for more entities in the map (not light entities, but ALL entities)? I had to keep switching entities about just so I could light the map! lol . . . . 
RickyT23 
I clearly don't know: ask aguirRe directly 
Entity Limit 
This sounds odd. Why would the compilers refuse to accept a map that exceeds a limit. Usually it's the engine.
I don't know if it helps in this case, but you could give the -hilimit option a try. 
AFAIK 
-hilimit is required for QBSP processing, or am I wrong ? 
Well There's Not Much Of A Problem Now: 
Starkmon was already released, with exactly 2048 entities in it :)

But when I tried to run tyrlite with more entities in the map than that it threw out an "excessive entities" error and wouldnt run.....

Annoying at the time. Although it brings light (no pun intended) to the issue: with all of these expanded limit engines, coloured light can only be applied to maps with less that 2048 enitities..... 
 
hmap2 supports sunlight etc, AND colored lights.

The result looks noticeably different from bjp-light though. :-/

There's probably some command line option buried somewhere that makes it behave like tyrlite etc.

Coloured light / tyrlite is somewhat old, hence maybe the limit thing.

Hack the source to increase the numbers? Or try hmap2.

Or ask Willem to hack colored lighting into bjp-light. I really can't do it atm, my schedule is full. 
Thanks Jpl 
i'll ask. i tried hmap2 and tyrlite out but i can't believe the difference not having all the extra stuff aguirre added. it's like going back 5 years. :P 
Probably Silly Question 
Can't you just use aguirRe's tool for the lightmap data and independently from that Tyrlite for the .lit file?
Assuming you don't want colored sunlight. How does the delay 5 attenuation formula differ from the regular one? 
Iirc 
colored lighting is basically the difference. so it looks at the point in the map with whatever light level, then it subtracts from the lit the the amount stored there to give rgb, so if the lightmap data is different from the .lit lightmap data, you get garbage.

also, delay 5 is like delay 2 except the max light level never goes over the 'light' amount, so you don't get overlit areas that are completely saturated. it's basically an upgraded delay 2 
Mixin The Lit File 
from tyrlite with a light data from light.exe results in a weird disco light effect, not good. 
 
i was looking at the vis source code from aguirre's vis.

in soundpvs.c, there's:
if (!Q_strncasecmp (miptex->name, "*water", 6))
Ambient[i] = NoAmbientWater ? -1 : AMBIENT_WATER;
else if (!Q_strncasecmp (miptex->name, "sky", 3))
Ambient[i] = NoAmbientSky ? -1 : AMBIENT_SKY;
else if (!Q_strncasecmp (miptex->name, "*slime", 6))
Ambient[i] = NoAmbientSlime ? -1 : AMBIENT_WATER; // AMBIENT_SLIME;
else if (!Q_strncasecmp (miptex->name, "*lava", 5))
Ambient[i] = NoAmbientLava ? -1 : AMBIENT_LAVA;
else if (!Q_strncasecmp (miptex->name, "*04water", 8))
Ambient[i] = NoAmbientWater ? -1 : AMBIENT_WATER;


you can see that slime gets assigned to AMBIENT_WATER, but it seems as though lava will be assigned AMBIENT_LAVA.
the thing is, it doesn't actually do anything.
i looked through fitzquake source code, but i wasn't able to find the spot that starts and stops the looping ambient sounds (wind and water) depending on where you are. does anyone know more about this? 
Necros: 
those four ambients (sky, water, slime, lava) are global sounds that play in the map, and vis calculates the appropriate volume to play each sound for each leafnode.

I don't have the engine source with me at the moment, but there will be client-side code in there that plays those sounds and adjusts the volumes based on the current leafnode. 
Decompiling 
I was curious about some old files I have with quiet remarkable capeabilities. Fact is that I often tried to decompile the progs.dat of files with the
qcc.exe -dec
but then I received the error
Error opening defs.qc: No such file or directory (ENOENT)

Is there a way to translate these stuborn files? 
Right 
decompiling 
Original QCC Can't Decompile 
UnQCC ProQCC and FrikDec can. 
Well... 
I ment proqcc but my hastiness cropped the text.
I used it to decompile the old Wilbur mod in which I succeeded.
Now I have the flamethrower.qc
Then I spend houres to subverse all the binairies in the Malice progs.dat to get the progs.scr which didn't worked. (of course)

Why did they messed up the progs.dat so bad?
I thought the licencewars nowadays were fairly obsolete?

o^o^o 
 
If I recall decompiling progs correctly: Their source code might have been good. But the decompiling cannot restore it in its glory. Thus the results from decompiling are not good.

It's almost like decompiling maps. 
On The Other Hand 
I might be violating a GPL licence. 
 
Normal progs.dat is divided in parts like:
defs.qc blah ai.qc blah world.qc blah etc

Malice progs.dat is divided in parts like:
��&#9788;&#9835;* blah &#9689;��&#9786;&#9787; blah &#9658;&#9835;&#9668;�� blah >��#&< blah etc

so the decompiler immediatly stucks on the
can't decompile ��&#9788;&#9835;* part.

I thought to be clever to change these parts in the same text as in the normal quake progs.dat but this didn't worked (of course). 
Mf 
And Spike's version? Even if there's not an official it's a cert he has one.

We can't compile RQ without fcqcc for the multi-frame and the other stuff. 
Hmm... 
I don't know if FTEQCC can decompile. I do know that stuff compiled with it will usually not be able to be decompiled by other things.

MadFox: Yeah. Someone believed that it would make it impossible to decompile if they used a program to scramble the strings that were the filenames of the QuakeC files used to compile it. If you can hex-edit something meaningful into those parts of the file, then you should be able to do it. 
Digit Block 
I don't know about Spike's version, where can I get it?
Should I check his site or email?

I tried FTEQCC, with no succes. And as I tried to fill in the hexidecimal parts I'm sure they're reiterated in the folowing hexidicimal part. As I'm not convenient with a binaire interpretator it's almost impossible for me. 
Check Site First? 
 
Items Falling Out Of The Map 
Hello again,

When I started my map in Bengt Jardrup's engine some items are not there. They were there in Dark Places. I use Worldcraft 1.6, by the way. I remember reading about this happening sometimes, but all related internet articles seem unfindable now. 
 
You placed them too close to brushes (walls probably). Move them away a few units and it should be fine. 
Err 
Of course walls, you can place stuff on the floor just fine. 
Thanks ! 
It's gonna be a damned puzzle making it alright though. Strange DP's doesn't mind. I had most of the weapons in cases. Oh well, I'll try something else then ... 
Help! No Textures :( 
Hello,

Just cracked open WC3.3 (+QuakeAdapter) to start mapping again. When I compile & run my map, none of the textures appear in-game. Anyone had this before? Anyone got any ideas?

Ta :) 
 
That generally means that QBSP can't find the WAD files during compilation. There should be a message about it in the compiler output. 
Do You See Them In Editor? 
 
 
No good advice, but if they're in editor you should be good. As Willem says check the compile window for errors, and your paths in the editor setup.

And make sure to use AguirRe's tools, although I think Baker packaged them inside the adapter. 
Nt 
Thanks, Willem - that's it: "WARNING: No valid wadfiles in worldmodel" from qbsp.

How can I get qbsp to find the right wads?

(I'm on Vista, which might be part of the problem.) 
#8751 Ijed 
spike's version, right
and where can I find his site? 
Ask Jonas 
I think he's on inside3d but I've never actually talked to him. 
LTH 
Uhm, edit worldspawn in WC or a text editor and add "wad" "..."? 
Negke 
It means that worldspawn will point onto a single wad file... But unfortunately, when you use different textures from different wad files, you will have to concatenate it before it works... hence more work...

Other solutions is to use a proper editor: QuArK owns this very well you know.. I guess it is the same for other editors ;)

So rather than editing the worlspawn, I would suggest to run the compiling processes from the editor itself, that may embed the proper wad generation with the necessary textures... safiest way to go I think ;) 
No. 
Editing the field manually, you can still have it point to multiple wads. And WC was one of the first editors to support this.
I assume the textures show correctly in the editor, so what if it's indeed some Vista issue? Maybe simplifying the paths could help. 
Negke 
Dunno actually, I've never tested such feature, manually at least... I'd rather prefer to stick to something I'm sure it is working ;) 
Heh 
One thing is very bad about Quark's texture handline though. It re-renders all the textures each time you open the texture browser. And it does not let you properly use it during that. This means that you will have to wait several seconds (for bigger wads) until you can select a texture. 
 
Spirit put file links... mine is fast... 
 
and i always have lots of wads instaled! 
Hmm 
key "wad", value "wad1.wad;wad2.wad" in worldspawn, put all the wad files in the same folder as the .map/compilers. Like negke said, it'll eliminate the possibility of it being misread paths...

(And manually specifying wads is a breeze compared to using an editor that has features you require missing (or has undocumented 'features' you'd rather avoid ;) 
Hmm 
(sigh) 
What is with me and the slow portals all the time... 
 
Thanks for the help. Seems like I can add a "wad" key but the value field isn't long enough to fit the path of more than one wad! Even so, the .map file gets generated with another (presumably worldcraft-generated) wad key, with all of the .hlwads in it, which is clearly wrong.

So how can I get worldcraft to generate the correct .wad names instead of using .hlwad...? anyone? 
WC3.3? 
Text editor then. No idea how to change it permanently. 
LTH 
In WC go to Tools\Options\Textures Tab and add the wad files you need. They will show up in the map files automaticaly. Compile should work without problems. Maybe you have too long paths to the wads also. 
 
This is really dumb - I've had exactly the same setup working perfectly well before.

Ankh - I'm using WC3.3, so I have to specify .hlwad files in it - which are obviously incompatible with Quake. I thought that the quake adapter did some magic so that at compile time it would re-insert the correct wads, but apparently not (or at least, not in my case). 
It Doesn't 
Because it's pretty direct what happens with WC.

But it's fucking irritating when things don't work as they should.

You should have a folder inside WC called textures with all your wads in there. Inside the editor you go to tools/textures and add the wads that are inside that folder manually.

And you're good.

Tech support isn't easy across a forum - but that should set you right.

The adapter does nothing magical, it's just a collection of tools - most of the legwork is still yours, so patience and experimentation is needed. 
Also 
Quake does accept HLWAD - but worldcraft 3.3 doesn't accept wad. It's a big hack, but it does work, at leaast until the tex conversion tool refuses to do the business. 
Is Full Vis Still Necessary ? 
I'm still working on my map, but when I run it true the Fitz or aguirRe engine with a fast vis only, it runs smooth as can be. Is full vis still necessary in this day and age ?

Another thing, if you get the "Excessive static entities" warning and just ignore it, do you get any real problems ? I don't care about warnings, but are there any consequences ? 
 
it's a choice you make. if you go over limits and get warnings in fitzquake, then you have to accept that it won't run in some engines.

as for full vis, my opinion is that it's just sloppy not to full vis. it's free performance, since not everyone has a monster machine and the quake engine becomes a lot less efficient at drawing stuff. the performance loss is not linear. 
 
I agree. It's a basic level designer skill to be able to seal your map and get a good VIS. And necros is right that it's not a linear thing - without a VIS, you're drawing the entire level with tons of extra lightmaps to boot. 
 
OK, thanks.
I thought it only had to do with speed, so gameplay doesn't become choppy. 
 
Speed is a large part of the reason but there are other concerns, yeah. 
Also 
There's lots of ways to build a map where full vis doesn't have to take weeks. Level of brush detail, turning details into func_walls, making LOS blocking 'doughnut corridors' putting clip brushes inside small holes and so on.

Its finnicky stuff to do, but it makes the map very easy to compile - which is important for betatesting, since not everyone has a powerful machine as mentioned. Some might be emulating in Wine or have other issues.

My Quake machine will have trouble on non-fullvised maps, for example - a decent incentive to keep my maps well built. 
 
"putting clip brushes inside small holes and so on. "

I don't see how this would improve VIS times. Clip is a collision thing while VIS looks at the rendering side of things, right? If you meant plugging up holes with solid brushes then, yes, that would help... 
Too Many Static Entities Is A Bad Thing 
the consequence is that some static entities wont appear in game (like torches and stuff)

AguirRe's engine should tell you how many static entities you have and what the limit is (256 IIRC)

Take some out and replace them with other light sources (i.e. light textures) 
Ok 
Not vis help, but general good building of the map.

For example putting a crate in the centre of the room on the floor or putting a crate in the centre of the room floating 2 units above the floor.

The second one is better (and invisible to the player) because it causes less subdivisions, which also helps compile time. 
No. Wrong. Don't Do This. 
 
Nevermind. I'm Wrong. But It's Still Dumb. And Makes Extra Portals. 
 
Hmm 
As CZG so eloquently explained, while this will indeed reduce subdivisions of the floor, the saving in VIS time/polycounts will be negligble when compared to the creation of many tiny, tiny vis portals under the crate (which'll slow down you VIS a fair chunk, especially if done with every crate in a level (there should be as many as possible)) 
Hm 
Fair point - I'll go back to my cave now. 
 
It's not dumb. It can lower the polycount considerably (depending on the area) and I doubt a few additional tiny portals will slow down VIS "a fair chunk." There's a more definite risk of ugly shadows beneath/around the crates, though.

However, speaking of poor VIS design: I'm now (again) stuck at a slow portal with no progress for a full week. 
Nasty 
 
 
found something interesting out about the hipnotic rotating stuff.

had never noticed this before, but you can attach ANY entity to a func_rotating_*

as long as the entity's targetname matches the target field of the func_rotating_*, that entity's origin will be continuously updated to match the position and angles of the rotater. i haven't tried, but i suspect it may not work with bmodels because of the way quake handles those, but point entities (even monsters o.0) work.

i was able to build a func_rotating_train which had torches attached to it as it moved about.

the effect is kind of ruined if the rotater actually does rotate though, because the angles of the child entities aren't updated, only their positions. 
 
clip brushes would help with BSP times as it's already telling BSP what areas to not put hulls. Some of the best ways to avoid high vis times is to avoid small brushes, huge open areas, and overly complex geometry (which is boring to me.)

I've never really understood the entire fretting about vis time other than your giving up use of your machine while vis takes place. Why should it matter if it takes 1 hour or 1 day as long as the map has good game play, is built properly, and looks great?

Most people playing these maps aren't wondering how long it took to Vis. They're having fun hopefully. 
Dear Programmers: 
Detail brushes have existed in Quake (1) for a long time.

http://quest-ed.sourceforge.net/files/mapc/qutils_2_src.zip
http://quake.chaoticbox.com/downloads/equakeutils.sit

It's a pity they've never been incorporated into more modern compilers, because they really do work to cut down vis times. I used pOx's eUtils quite a bit back in the dark days of mac quake editing. They even have nifty features the Quest tools don't, like non-solid detail brushes. So you can have your func_walls and func_illusionaries, but they still cast shadows etc. 
AEnoch 
The problem is that, these days, people are making maps that don't so much take days to fullvis as weeks.

It wouldn't be so bad if this trend wasn't utterly unnecessary... 
No Q1 Map 
I've ever made has taken more than ~5 hours to compile.

Someone's about to post a warp map compile of 6 hours to prove me a liar.

Remember that this is a mapping forum, on the mapping help thread - this is the place where we complain about vis times. 
Yeah, But ... 
In reaction to post #8797 posted by Lardarse:

Yeah, but if someone was to come up with a decent map, about ID sized, who would take notice ?

If you look at the work of people like Ijed, Tronyn, CZG, Necros, Kona and Kell(to name a few of the best ever), it's almost all huge. And I like it.

ID's Quake was great, but what these people have made is so much better. Better even than all the crap games you can buy in the stores these days. Works of art that inspire people like me to try and come close to, even without having all the knowledge that they've got. 
 
The size of the map shouldn't matter though. Proper construction and respecting the engine should result in reasonable VIS times. If you build a gigantic football field with bleachers, well, yeah, that will take forever to VIS but in my mind that isn't proper construction.

You can build a large map and still have VIS be reasonable.

Having said that, my current map is going to be a bastard once it's sealed. I've committed a lot of VIS sins and I know the VIS gods will punish me for it. 
 
"Yeah, but if someone was to come up with a decent map, about ID sized, who would take notice ? "

A map the size of an id1 map that was nicely detailed and well put together would be well received I think. You couldn't duplicate the originals and get away with it anymore but that size of map isn't necessarily a problem, IMO. 
Fuck Limitations... 
... do whatever you think is cool... And you end up in a 2 month fullvis map :P 
 
I dunno. I guess I'm of the mind that you have to keep evaluating your 'return on investment'. A map that takes 2 months to VIS isn't necessarily 60 times better than a map that takes a day. It may just be built wrong. 
Lack Of Skill / Knowledge 
I agree that lack of skill or knowledge is the bottleneck for people who start mapping. Even people who have been doing it for years could be making things more difficult for themselves without them ever knowing. That's why it is a shame that so many websites dedicated to map making are disappearing. 
 
ID's Quake was great, but what these people have made is so much better
bear in mind that id's levels was made ~95/96, do you remember, any custom levels of such quality those years? 
I'm With JPL 
If I build a map and people enjoy it, that's my return on investment (your pleasure is my pleasure, in a non-kinky way). I map for fun, not for money. My computer is not a 'resource', it's a hobby.

Sixty hour vis times is fine by me, I'll be doing plenty of other things in the foreground. So, time is not the issue: impatience might be. 
 
*shrug* Sure, to each his own. I obviously map for fun -- why else would I be making Quake maps? There's no money in it. 
Well 
I'm working on id1 remixes now and I find that everything gets slightly bigger - the originals feel very crampt by todays standards.

I tend to add lots more areas as well - my e3m3 is now around twoce the size but started off with a similar layout. I add the extra stuff just because it's fun to have.

A load of times in the id1 maps I'll come up to a dead end or a room just begging for expansion, and can't stop myself. Because it's fun :)

Still fullvising in under an hour in the above example. 
 
Haha, of course, I get the map sealed and a full VIS takes 3 minutes. WTF? 
See? You Got All Worked Up Over Nothing 
 
 
if a trigger_multiple killtarget's itself, is that the same as a remove() in a touch function? o.o 
Necros: 
killtarget is better because it sets the think function to SUB_Remove, which happens safely in the next think frame. If you remove() in a touch function it happens immediately, which could screw up the linked list of edicts, which can crash the engine. 
 
thanks for explaining the difference :)

now an even weirder question:

is it ok to build outside the 4096 boundaries if the player is never supposed to get there?

i know from past experience that the visual component of the map will be visible if it's outside the 4096 cube. the only thing that's bad is that the moment the player's pov passes outside, he seems to 'loop' back to the other side.

but the actual collision will still be correct, it just looks as if you're on the other side of the map.

so if i built a sort of skybox (brushbox? o.0) outside the 4096 as pure decoration and clipped the boundaries of the playable area, would it break anything? i've never tried making a full map with a lot of brushwork outside the boundaries, just usually it's a few stray brushes because i was careless. :P 
Necros: 
it's something i've thought of doing too -- should work, as long as the player or entities or anything else but world brushes stay inside teh bounds (e.g. if you shoot a rocket out past the bounds, it will look pretty funny.

If entities/effects/sounds etc go outside the bounds, the only issue really is that they will be rendered in the wrong place. Server-side physics and movement and and stuff will still work fine.

Anyway, you could make a pretty cool horizon/vista out past the bounds, like a cityscape or mountains or whatever. 
 
excellent! i wanted to make sure there weren't any kind of hidden engine glitches that would crop up.
there's still maybe a matter with vis.exe calculations? i don't know if it cares or not whether the pvs' it's calculating are within any boundaries or not. 
Necros: 
well, it's fairly untested ground, so there are no guarantees, but as far as i know, the only thing enforcing a +-4096 limit is the network protocol, so everything else should theoretically work with the larger space. 
 
well, i decided to try it out, so i guess we'll see. o.o

i guess the good thing about it being purely decorative is that if it doesn't work, it's just a matter of deleting it without impacting gameplay. 
 
So if you go beyond the 4096 boundary do you come out the other side like in Pac-Man? 
Seems 
to be the case unless there are special engines used or summat. 
Thought 
the squad shadow by making an object above the sky is the same issue. 
Aenoch: 
Yes, but it's a purely visual thing, your actual location on the server does not wrap around -- just the coordinates sent to the client. 
 
Are you sure about that? If you jump off an unsealed level and loop a few times, you can still land on the level itself and have proper collision which would imply that you are, in fact, wrapping around in terms of your coordinates... 
Dimensions / Metrics ... 
Hi,

Does anyone have any information on the metrics / dimensions used for the Quake world ?

I'd like to understand what each unit represents and how big fixed size entities are, in terms of real world application.

Thanks

-Mic 
 
I've heard it's 8 Quake units is a foot, but I don't know for sure. I just fool around until it looks right. 
Willem ... 
It was actually ToeTag that prompted this question as I was wondering what size the grid squares represented and how you knew what size to draw the 'fixed-size' entities etc

-Mic 
8 Units = 1 Foot ... 
Yep, just found confirmation on this page ...

http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/section2.htm

Unders the measurements section.

Will now work to this scale.

Thanks

-Mic 
 
Well, the entity sizes are specified in the .QC files and the models and things that are read in are automatically scaled correctly since the entire editor runs in Quake coordinate space. 
Willem ... 
Thanks for pointing me to the .qc files ... that'll come in handy.

You see that's where I get confused, you said above 'I just fool around until it looks right' but now you say 'models and things that are read in are automatically scaled correctly since the entire editor runs in Quake coordinate space' so in order for that to happen you must use some sort of measure/unit size ?

-Mic 
 
It's a 1:1 mapping. 1 unit inside of a model file is 1 grid unit. That doesn't relate to the real world, it's just how it's mapped within the editor. I use the same scale as Quake which, internally, is 1 unit is 1 grid unit. 
Willem ... 
Ahhh ... now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

-Mic 
It'sa Perception Thing 
8 units = 1 foot doesn't literally translate. The player is 56 units which would equal 7 feet, and can jump 32 units which would be 4 feet.

Even then if you create a room 80 X 80 and spawn in it, it doesn't 'feel' like a 10' x 10' room. 
So Probably About 10 Units Per Foot Then :P 
 
Hmm 
Indeed, if you're asking what I think you are then the answer is 'it's irrelevant'.

The units in Quake don't really translate that well into 'real' units of measurement. It's just an arbitary unit. What you seem to want to know is standard sizes, in which case;

128 units is standard for a medium/small corridor width. It's also the standard height of a floor/storey (ie, there'll be 128 units from floor to ceiling).

64 units is a thin corridor or a large crate.

16 units is the height of a step.

Of course, a lot of these, such as floor height/corridor width can be expanded/contracted depending on the size of room wanted, I'd suggest finding the source files for some maps and having a look at the scale of them in editor (I know Vondur releases all of his, as do various other mappers...) 
Look At Textures 
Also you can determine in game by some of the textures used the size of a room since most textures are either 64 or 128, unless they were scaled. 
AEnoch ... 
I think in terms of approximation, 1 foot equalling 8 units is about right.

7ft for the player doesn't sound to outlandish. Dolph Lundgren stands about 6ft 6in and I would have expected the player to be about the same physique as him.

And I would also expect someone of this physique to be able to jump about 4 feet.

-Mic 
SketchUp Converter ... 
The reason I'm asking for this is because I'm currently working on an .skp (Google SketchUp) -> .map converter, but the maps when loaded after conversion are too small because SU works in inches & feet and 1 foot doesn't map to 1 Quake unit. Therefore I need some sort of scale to work with.

-Mic 
Re: Willem + Looping 
If you jump off an unsealed level and loop a few times, you can still land on the level itself and have proper collision

this actually isn't the case. if you loop around, the geometry is drawn as if you had looped, but everything is non solid and monsters cannot attack you, even though they look as if they are able to.
any geometry that goes beyond the boundary though, will be solid to you when you loop over. but it won't be visible.

it's like the client is running on floats but the server is running with doubles. 
Re Units 
maybe this is for hl/hl2, but i believe they do 1 unit = 1 inch which works out good for like stair heights and such, but i think the quake player is shorter than the hl2 player. 
Quake Guy 
even shrter than the q2 guy 
 
necros

Oh yeah? Weird, I could swear I remember doing that but maybe I never actually tried it. 
 
it's like the client is running on floats but the server is running with doubles.

Literally, the server is using floats and the nework protocol sends them as 16-bit fixed-point numbers, with 13 bits for the integer part, and 3 bits for the fractional part (so the smallest representable difference is 1/8 of a unit, and the largest possible value is 4095.875) The client converts them back into floats, but of course you've already lost the extra range at that point. 
Also: 
you can see this 1/8 thing if you stand on a slope (like the beginning of e1m1) and zoom in on the wall nearby. As you slowly slide, your view ratchets forwards and downwards in noticable increments.

When working on protocol 666, i tried various techniques to add range to the coordinate system without increasing packet size. They were all very complicated and still made packets bigger. The simplest is just to always send floats, but this makes packets much bigger and I didn't want to pollute the protocol that way (as it is now, the packet sizes are about the same as 15 until you need to send special data like alpha, 2-byte modelindex, etc.)

I still have plans to support this in the future, I just wanted to get a functional version out and that requires locking down the feature set at some point.

The packet size limit is the toughest part, and there's not much I can do about it (but I should add a cvar so you can attempt larger packets on a LAN, which might have higher MTU than the internet at large.) 
 
angles are another thing where the precision is incredibly low.

the hanging corpses that slowly rotate in quoth are animated in the mdl because the engine's angles round to like, nearest 5/360th instead of nearest 1/360th degree. when you start doing rotating brushes, and the brushes are large (or are placed far from the origin) it can get incredibly ugly with this gigantic gaps between rotations.

it would be nice to beef up whatever handles angles if possible. 
Necros: 
protocol 666 does have high precision client angles (so aiming your gun is accurate) but not on rotations for entities.

I noticed the problem with hanging corpses but I thought the rotation was a model animation (so they could be static ents) rather than entity rotation. I guess that's a good feature to add to the next protocol.

Though, It seems like something that mappers/modders should avoid relying on, otherwise you'll have the huge ugly bmodel rotations you talk about happening in all other stock engines. I had this problem with a rotate train in rubicon2 and the fix was to spawn it near the world origin. 
Monster Action Measures 
maximum distance a player can jump without falling into water, lava, or traps
225 units

maximum distance a player can jump straight up and get up to another object:
42.5 units

maximum distance a player can fall and not be injured:
275 units

minimum gap in the floor spacing, slatted bridge or floating squares of lava:
35 units

maximum height that a step can be before a player must jump:
17 units 
Units ? 
What is a unit ?
I always have trouble making lifts go the right distance, most of it I guess and then adjust.
When you speak of units, how do they relate to the grid in Worldcraft ? 
 
(makes "shoot myself in the head signal")

FFS, its just been repeatedly explained not a couple of posts previously (like yesterday)

1:1, one grid unit = 1 unit, one 1:1-texture-pixel 
More On Real World Unit Size ... 
After researching this more, I have come across the Quake Editing Primer at ...

http://gamers.org/dEngine/quake/QDP/QPrimer.html

... which suggests 1 Quake unit is about 3cm or 1 foot is approx 10 Quake units.

This seems to make more sense now, especially with what others posters have suggested above.

The only thing that still puzzles me is the standard height of a step being 16 units. At 8 units equalling 1 foot, 16 units or 2 foot is far to high I feel, and although 1.6 foot (using 10 units per foot) is getting nearer the mark, I feel this is still too high.

5 ft 6 for the player size, and an 80 x 80 room equalling 8ft x 8ft rather than 10ft by 10ft perhaps seems more reasonable.

What do you guys think ?

-Mic 
More ... 
It also suggests that vertical and horizontal scales are different ...

Vertically : 1 unit = 3cm, 10 units = 1 ft
Horizontally: 1 unit = 2cm, 16 units = 1 ft

-Mic 
Don't Take It Too Seriously 
I always had the impression 64 units roughly corresponded to 1 meter. Then 16 unit steps would be about 20-25cm which kind of makes sense for the world. The scale for entities is totally different, though.

In the end, it's no use translating RL scale to Quake units - the dimensions of the environment isn't determined by logic, just by the textures. 
<- Face It 
The scale in Quake is shot: a 16 unit step/stair just doesn't look right with a player model next to it and larger monsters look ridiculously small when viewed from above. Go with what feels right and don't get too caught up in the unit conversions. 
 
" the dimensions of the environment isn't determined by logic, just by the textures."

^^ This. Just work with it until it feels right. 
Like I Said 
It's a matter of perception. Do what looks/feels right, and adjust from there. 
It Is Relative.... 
... to players size, that is 16 units tall if I remember well :) 
To Add Just A Bit More... 
When you're dealing with dimensions/proportions in a game engine, you're almost always going to have problems if you try to rely on exact conversion numbers and translation of stuff directly from the Real World.

In FP games in particular, the camera height and FOV are going to differ at least a bit (and often significantly) from what you're used to seeing in real life, so some things will feel right and some won't.

And then there's the problem of stuff being on a small flat screen, rather than actually being in front of you... 
Btw 
there is a limit after all to how far out you can build. it appears to be 8192 (doubles?) where, anything after that just doesn't draw. 
Necros: 
Hmm, I guess there are probably some client functions that assume the original bounds. For example:

- the far clipping plane

- the skybox size

- the trace vector used to light entities based on floor lighting (was 2000 units in original quake, now 8192 in fitzquake) 
 
you guys ever go back and play some of your really old stuff?
i was playing nesp09 and i discovered my lame sense of humour hasn't changed at all. 
 
i guess what i was really driving at was: do you enjoy your own maps after sufficient time has passed that some or most of it is almost like new? 
 
I play mines from time to time just to remenbered how noob I was and still :)

Yes I like to play then -:) and I love even more to play your maps necros ;)

ne_lend is my favorit map ever, i love the use of the nails in the map, very fast and fun. I played this map many many times... doesn�t look Quoth at all because is real fast. 
 
Like when you told me it wasn't possible to use the second (light brown) Polyp skin in Quoth while it actually is? Where we could have been now... 
 
I've replayed my speedmaps recently. Some are better than I thought, and most are much worse. Pretty much all of them are ridiclously hard - 60 monsters in such small maps, what was I thinking). And the humor in some of them is beyond lame, yeah.

The most obvious thing going on when playing one's old maps is realizing their shortcomings, like Trinca said, and how one would build it differently. 
 
I also think that the fact that you guys play others games help a lot in inspiration!

In my case i dont play others games because of my very limited time :\ i wish i had more time to play others games and map more :\

But in the other hand i�m very glad of my life, i love my kids and my wife ;)

I will keep mapping for Quake but this year and next will be hard for me to release anything, only speedmaps... full map i dont have the time and the will. 
Rather 
joyfully playing my own map again then seeing it quoted by someone who HAS to do the job. 
WC/Hammer 
Has anyone gotten Wordcraft/Hammer to run well on Linux? 
It's Difficult Enough 
Getting it to run on windows - no joke.

It's got a very nice interface but if you're looking for editors I'd suggest going for another one, maybe QuArK. Which is multiplatform AFAIK. 
 
It is not and it is an editor that makes it too easy to screw up (and likes to do that by itself just to annoy you). 
WC 
I've had no problems with it on windows. I know Radiant works on Linux but I've been using WC for years and it's what I'm comfortable with.

I have Quark but it runs slower than WC. I'm just wondering as I'm looking to switch to linux. 
Fair Enough 
I'm still looking for a solution to the 'no 3d selection' issue - There are dll's that can be used but they screw up the texture rendering. 
 
Radiant and Quest run natively under Linux.

Several others run under wine (pretty well actually), if that floats your boat.

I'll learn Radiant soon anyway. 
I'm A Few Posts Late But 
I fucking love replaying 90% of my old speed maps. I never get tired of them, and I don't look at them critically (probably because I haven't improved much, if at all). 
Argh, This Is Taking On JPLian Dimensions 
Full: 75.01%, Elapsed:307h 39m, Left:482h 54m, Total:790h 33m, 38% 
Hm 
Is it really worth the full vis? After all the map is very open. 
I Think It Is 
It'll still have an extremly high polycount, but even if the fullvis can only lower it slightly, it'll be worth it. 2000 is better than 4000. 
 
your computer will burn :|

make a backup of everything NOWWWWWW 
 
I wonder what the magic breaking point is for VIS. My latest map has gotten larger and is still VIS'ing in under 5 minutes. It has one huge room in it with lots of detail but even that doesn't seem to daunt VIS... 
 
It scales up exponentially. A single room (how huge is huge in Quake terms) might work, but if most or all geometry is inside a single volume like in a space map, it creates a multitude of portals. There's one for every little edge and slope and all they also affect each other.

http://negke.quaddicted.com/images/coag_prt1.jpg
http://negke.quaddicted.com/images/coag_prt2.jpg

Note the portal jungle in the upper half. 
 
CDA seems near the magic breaking point, if anything.

That suggests if your map is one large sandbox with all structures open to it, and some triangle mesh etc perhaps, you might have good chances. 
Negke 
wow, just saw those numbers. You love pain, right. 
Uhm 
get the urge to leave... 
Just Give It A Few Years 
Multithreaded VIS on 8-core Nehalems will make this problem pretty much go away. Remember, id had to use the most badass Alpha hardware available in '96 to compile their Quake maps.

or you know, detail brushes. 
 
or use Doom 3, no more vis. 
 
yeah, whatever you say about the lighting, the visibility system in doom3 is badass. 
Understanding VIS 
What system resources uses Vis anyway ?
Does it help to have lots of memory and a good processor or could you just as well run it on a Pentium 1 from the old Quake days ? 
VIS 
VIS process needs memory and a fast processor to limit its runtime.
It is based onto a recursive algorithm (a kind of "turtle" algorithm)... the faster the CPU will be, the less consuming the VIS runtime will be.. Having GBs of RAM will not help, as I don't think the process needs it... though...
But in anyway, VIS process is the evil one in the Quake map building flow :( 
 
Also, VIS benefits greatly from multithreading since each leaf can be processed independently of each other (which is how id ran theirs on their Alpha machines). I've enabled this in my Mac version of the tool but I don't think any Windows versions exist like that. 
Willem 
I'm not exactly sure bout the implementation, but it seems it could be faster with multi core processor indeed.
I already discussed this topic with aguirRe, and he told me that ID indeed had their first VIS process running onto multicore Unix machine, but it has never been ported to Windows in this way: Window VIS tools are single CPU only, and AFAIK.. unless somebody has a specific tool on his own ;) 
 
The code is in there - it's just #ifdef'd out. All a Windows programmer would have to do is define "_alpha" (or whatever the symbol) is in preprocessor symbols of their compiler and fix the errors that spit out. It was really pretty simple on Mac.

I've not done much multithreading on Windows so I can't say how closely the structures and such relate to what id wrote on their Unix machine but it can't be more than a few hours of hunting around some documentation to find equivalents. 
So Willem... 
...care to do me a little favor? 
 
Haha ... I might take a stab at it. Which VIS do people use? Point me at some source code and I'll take a crack at it this weekend but no promises... 
BJP's Of Course 
I didn't mean compiling the vis tool, though! 
 
negke already in 90% 
Not Quite 
Full: 76.65%, Elapsed:359h 37m, Left:885h 2m, Total:1244h 39m, 28% 
 
negke

Oh, well, the best solution long term would be to get a Windows version with multithreading working. I could run it for you, yes, but that's painful. :P

To be clear, this?

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/visbjp.zip 
Yep 
 
Willem 
somebody provided be a vis tool that is supposed to run 40% faster than Id's original one... but I never tested it as I did not trust the guy that much: anyone who wants to benchmark it can send me an email: I'll provide the stuf.... at your own risk :P 
Forgot To Mention... 
... I also have the source... 
 
Can someone hook me up with a .PRT and a matching .BSP file so I can run some VIS debugging? 
PRT Files... 
...you can generate them yourself from the BSP. Use for example BspInfo (delivered with aguirRe's visbjp suite) and the -prt flag. 
 
Ha! So you can, awesome. Thanks! 
Go Willem! 
 
OK, This Might Work... 
...but it comes with zero assurances of it actually working or not corrupting data. :P

I took some of my lunch hour today to see if this could be done quickly.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/161473/Vis.zip

That should be a multi-threaded version of BJP VIS. When you run it, you'll see some additional text appear like:

"Using X threads."

The X will be however many cores/processors you have in your machine.

The percentage and progres stuff is all kinds of messed up and I don't have time to fix it today - lunch time is over! But I'll take a look at that in the future once the basics are nailed down.

Anyway, try it, run some side by side timings and let me know if I'm crazy or if this actually works.

The best way to see it work is to start up your Task Manager and look at the processor activity. All of your cores/processors should be pegged at 100% when this is running.

Thanks! 
 
swapping to your vis for all my vising needs. i'm seeing 100% cpu usage, so it appears to be working fine. i'll let you know if anything weird happens.

you are currently on my list of people made of awesomeness for this, btw. ^_^

damn, i wish i had a quad core though. :( 
 
The part that scares me is if the map will load into Quake when it's done. That's something I can't test here. :) Let me know, plz! 
Willem 
Despite it may load, it also can generates HOMs and leaks.... wait and see :P 
 
I don't see why it shouldn't load into Quake. After all, all you changed was the resource management. The actual vis calculation and state file handling remains untouched.
I'm running a test at the moment. One hour of willemvis vs one hour of regular (single-threaded) vis. The time estimations would help here, but whatever. No idea if there's much of a gain. I don't have a real multicore machine, just one of those p4-hyperthreading dudes (I was always suspicious about this being a possible bottleneck). 
 
How many threads does it say you're using? If it's more than 1, you should see SOME improvement. 
OK, I Think I Fixed The Time Estimates And Percentages... 
I also renamed the EXE for easier use.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/161473/WVis.zip

Give that a shot if you want the time estimates to be useful. 
Will Test This For Future Builds 
 
 
So I guess now, whoever has the most cores/processors on their machine needs to become a VIS mule for the group. :P 
 
Yes, there's definitely some improvement (with 2 threads) - I'd say it's at least 40% faster. I was so dumb as to accidentally close the window just now, so I can't tell the exact difference, unfortunately. But still, your version is useful for running at night when there're no other programs running beside vis. Thanks for offerning your lunch break. 
Uh 
offering the sacrificing 
 
well, i've been using it all day with fast vising. it is faster, but it's hard to tell just how much without doing a proper full vis.

i have a second map that's in the final stage so i'll do a couple of test runs of full -level 4 vising on it, one with and one without multithreading for a proper comparison, but assuming there isn't a fundamental difference in what vis is doing in -fast vs without -fast, i'd say it's creating .bsp files that are perfectly fine. :) 
Awfull 
how you managed to improve this blocking up tool, Willem!
If I count all vis time I made since I started mapping in '97 I could have learned C+ and have dived into it... too late I guess. 
 
"i'd say it's creating .bsp files that are perfectly fine. "

Sweet! i guess it's good to go then. 
Er...... 
link is 404? 
 
Sorry, the file moved. I've made it permanent here:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/tools/windows/misc/WVis.zip 
Thanks Willem 
2 Core AMD works!!!
Test map 60 sec vis down to about 36 sec.

Base vis is crazy fast 
Looks Good 
It looks like the WVis times are rounded to the nearest minute?

This was on a Core2Duo E6850 (3 GHz).

Original VIS run:

---- Vis 2.31 ---- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
2929 portalleafs
8356 numportals
State file out of date, will be overwritten
testlevel = 4
ambient sky disabled

average leafs visible: 192
max leafs visible: 646 near (-608 352 592)
c_chains: 39836161
visdatasize: 219 kb compressed from 1049 kb

Elapsed time : 6:52

WVis run:

---- WVis 2.31 ----
Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Multithreading enabled by Willem

File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
2929 portalleafs
8356 numportals
State file out of date, will be overwritten
testlevel = 4
ambient sky disabled

Using 2 threads.


average leafs visible: 192
max leafs visible: 646 near (-608 352 592)
c_chains: 39880904
visdatasize: 219 kb compressed from 1049 kb

Elapsed time : 3:00

I just did this, so I haven't actually looked at the map in the game. If I see any problems I'll post them.

The only difference in the log is the c_chains (no idea if that's important). I ran the full BSP, Light, Vis each time with no change to the actual .map file 
C_chain 
I guess this is the recursive linkage made in between volumes. As in bsp process there's a volume expansion process that defines where are each faces / leafs, I think it is almost the same for vis process except the tools creates a chained list of volume in order to process them recursively (i.e from this volume, process the faces, and check what are the others visible volume not in the list, etc...) and determine which volumes (and then number of faces to render per volume) are visible from a given position.
This is how I understood the system in very "rough" way.. and maybe I'm wrong :P 
 
Yeah, I'll check the rounding but I didn't really change anything there that I can think of. Hmm... 
Wow ! 
Progress in Quake map building, after all these years ! Nice work !

Quick question about something else:

Does it really make a lot of difference if you make your curves just by cutting them with a circle, or if you use the vector manipulation to make them more or less the same size and triangles ? If anyone has some more info (on the web, maybe ?) about vector manipulation, please let me know. 
Ah, Found It: 
http://www.quaketerminus.com/hosted/happymaps/curv_tut.htm

Learn those ratios by heart, use them. The ratio used in the above tut is 0:2 2:4 4:2 2:0 if that makes any sense. There are other possible workable ratios but that one's always worked for me.

As far as constructing said curves, the 2-point clipper will probably give you less headache (and fewer invalid brushes) than trying to vertex manip everything into place. 
Black Monsters 
I remember someone else having a problem awhile back with this ... I have some spots in my level where creatures turn black despite the floor and the walls around them being lit perfectly fine. Is there an easy workaround for this? I'm running FitzQuake... 
Well 
If they're passing over a sky brush then they'll always appear black unless the sky brush has a normal, solid brush inside it.

If they're appearing black when passing over normal lit floor then there's an issue with the origin of the monster.

They take no reference from the walls. 
 
But what can I do as a mapper? Just rework the brushes in the area until the engine stops having an issue? 
Can You Upload A Screenshot? 
Maybe it's a known issue. 
 
The screenshot would just be an enforcer standing a well lit ledge but he's black. If he moves to either side a little bit, he lights up. I guess I'll just play with it. :) 
Fair Enough 
Doesn't sound like any issue I know about. 
Tiny Misalignments Maybe 
 
 
the problem i believe you're remembering was mine where i had torches and stuff fulldark even though the ground under them was nearly fullbright (or overbright even).

i think i understand what causes it. i suspect it has to do with FQ's lighting interpolation, but only on maps that are unsealed.

the problem usually happens in corners or along walls, never in the middle of a room.

i believe this was because the sides that made up the bottom of the wall brush and the side of the floor brush were fulldark and the interpolation was getting messed up.

i've found that sealing maps so that those faces are removed tends to fix it.

if you have an enforcer on a ledge, is it possible there are faces in the area that are messing up the interpolation?

from what i recall of how metl explained it to me, FQ doesn't just look at the floor directly beneath the model to light it. 
 
The map is definitely sealed but there might be some dark polygons in the area. I'll take a closer look... 
Curves 
Thanks a lot for that link, Grahf ! 
 
from what i recall of how metl explained it to me, FQ doesn't just look at the floor directly beneath the model to light it.

I haven't actually figured out this bug yet, but the fitzquake interpolation should still be looking just at the same floor polygon as glquake. The difference is that when you trace a line down and it hits between lightmap samples, glquake picks the nearest one and fitzquake blends between all four.

Again, since i haven't figured out this bug, i can't say in what way fitzquake is doing it wrong. 
More Curves 
No prob Ron, I'm welcome to pass the info along. Thank CZG actually, he wrote it.

Actually, it's worth mentioning that the tutorial I linked to in #8923 was written specifically for Worldcraft. The more advanced methods, of bending a hollowed pipe, simply do not work in editors such as Radiant. I beat my head against a wall for a while until Speedy told me the solution: the pipe itself can only be 8-sided, but you can bend it around a 12-sided curve. So there you have it, in case anyone was wondering. 
 
oh fuck, got a map with 400 brushes but is stucking my mapping :\

Isn�t giving me any inspiration at all :\ in some way i want to delete the dawn bastard but then I feel petty for all the work I�ve lost

But guess I will have to let this baby died and start a new one!

I�m want to start a new map like tchak but the size make me be afraid of never finish it... :\ 
Curves 
page was inspirating me to a new map!

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quake00.jpg 
MadFox = Dr.Seuss 
???? 
???? 
not sure, but does it metch:

http://members.home.nl/gimli/dummi.jpg 
Forget It 
or post your hat. 
Im Sorry 
im not comprehending what i think im supposed to :S

i think my brain has gone to warp stage 
Summary 
That's nothing.

In my occasion I never know what to think
when adding a post and the toppic grows
dead for weeks. 
Smd 
someone needs a model animation but has only the smd format.
It seems something to do with the Team Source SDK Model Source File.

I can only use 3DS or DXF files but he tells me the file in Milkshape or Max3d will only transport to these extentions without bones.

As I need to animate them it's usefull to keep the bone structure.

Is there a solution to this convert error? 
 
it's been a long long time since i was converting hl2 format models...

i believe there's a 3dsmax plugin that imports SMD files directly.

http://www.chaosincarnate.net/cannonfodder/cftools.htm
get mdldecompiler here.

this lets you decompile the mdl file into all the seperate pieces to get the smd, which, afaik, is just the mesh with vertex weighting.

then go here:
http://www.wunderboy.org/sourceapps.php
and pick up the 3dsmax smd importer to directly import the mesh into 3dsmax. this should preserve vertex weighting. 
Thanks 
for the links, necros!
I didn't realize it were hl2 models as I only came to HalfLife1.

I earlier overcame to the stunning effect when importing an enforcer it meshed up the bullit inside its gun, so I didn't understand were my extra triangle was left after exporting.

I only have 3D Studio MAX R3.
I hope the converters can handle this old version.
I could install Milkshape to get the bones preserved as modelling can get messed up when I start adding them myself. 
 
Ninety-two percent.
Oh, woes! Will you ever stop?
Space maps suck to VIS. 
And 
You're into the slowest part of the process.

Really looking forward to this map, and won't be the only one - if its any consolation. 
Heh 
that map i posted about a couple of weeks ago... estimating 1351 hours, and that's *with* willem's multicore fix. -_-

i suspect i will have to rework it. :P 
Compiling Is Fun! Honest... 
TreeQBSP v2.05 -- Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Mac port by Willem
Input file: leamondetest1.map
Output file: leamondetest1.bsp
*** WARNING 03: Line 45756: Brush with duplicate plane
[a bunch of duplicate plane errors removed]
Title: "Lea Monde"
31430 faces
5229 brushes
1023 entities
117 unique texnames
3703 texinfo
*** ERROR 37: Failure seeking to 1694052352 in file rt_gnosis_q1.wad
29 warnings
Elapsed time : 0:01
Peak memory used : 5.1 MB

So as you can see, qbsp is spitting out this bizarre error as it is loading my .wad files. I have 4 wad files I want to use, which are all in the same directory as qbsp. My wadfiles are fine, that is, they loaded with no errors into a wad editor. The above "failure seeking" error is generated when only one or two of my wads is specified in worldspawn. The number it fails to seek to varies with the number and order of wads listed in the worldspawn's "wad" key; sometimes it has been negative, but it is not random - for any given order and number of wads, the number spit out will be the same. If all four wads are listed, I get this:

qbsp(3538) malloc: *** vm_allocate(size=2690650112) failed (error code=3)
qbsp(3538) malloc: *** error: can't allocate region
qbsp(3538) malloc: *** set a breakpoint in szone_error to debug

If I am reading that vm_allocate() right, it is trying to allocate 2.6 gigabytes of memory, which I don't have. My machine has 1.5GB of physical RAM, and I got this error with 1.1GB available. I'd have thought that OS X's virtual memory management would have taken up the slack, but apparently not. Also, I was unable to reproduce the out of memory error just now, which confuses me further, but reinforces my intuition that it's a cover for something else going on. The failure seeking error is persistent however.

Oh, and the weirdest part is that if I remove the "wad" key from worldspawn entirely, the errors go away and the qbsp finishes. But I don't think it's going to look very pretty without textures. The map itself is pretty big, ~5200 brushes, but that ought not to matter because I'm getting these errors before the meat of the qbsp process even starts.

Lastly, if I ever do get this thing compiled, it has a painful lack of visblocking. You guys are scaring me. 
 
this is sort of a long shot, but it's all i can think of.

looking at the bsp info above, 117 unique texnames meaning 117 unique textures. this is a lot and i know there's a limit to how many textures can be stored (or is it a limit on how much memory can be used in textures?)
and the limit may only been in the engine itself, not the compiler, it's just that when you said that removing the wad key (and hence not loading any textures) makes the problem go away is what made me think of it.

try making a test map and replacing most (or all?) of the textures with a single one and see if that does anything... 
 
The number of textures isn't the problem here (there have been maps with twice as many). There seems to be something wrong with the WADs, some that your editor doesn't mind but QBSP chokes on. Try merging them in TexMex or at least save each of them to a new filename in case there're some faulty bits somewhere. 
 
ijed: Just as any new map is appreciated and looked forward to. Keeping you informed about the process is actually a double-edged affair, since it kind of renders me as a fool for going through such a hassle for so little gain, both in terms of VIS results and the quality of the map - which is not to say it sucks, but it got out of proportion some 500 hours ago. :D

necros: Keep in mind the time esimations don't stay constant throughout the whole process. If it says 1300 hours in the beginning, you can bet it'll go up dramatically at a later point and especially towards the end. Better add a digit. 
 
yep. i'm currently running a test with vis -level 1.
if that's enough to keep things smooth, i can stand not having super accurate vis calculations.

there's something wierd though, because i seem to be getting strange behaviour with the timer.
elapsed time is incorrect saying 34 minutes when it has been running for over 2 hours...
the estimate at level 1 is only 3 hours, but if the timer isn't working, than likely nothing it's outputting is correct... i'll see what it's like tomorow, i suppose... 
Sure 
But this is a big negke space map. 
Timer 
maybe the elapsed time readout is based on actual cpu tics used for vis, not real-world elapsed time? 
 
i doubt it because that doesn't really make any sense for aguire to code it that way. besides, i've used his vis for lots of maps and never had anything weird like that happen.

trying again with -level 2 and it seems to be working properly now. 
Blah, Update 
I put one texture on all brushes in the map, "wad" = "knave.wad" in worldspawn, and still this:

*** ERROR 37: Failure seeking to 471762432 in file knave.wad

I imported the whole map into a new file, and still the same. I even tried on a completely different map. If there are no wadfiles in worldspawn, it will compile. If there are valid wadfiles specified, qbsp will fail. Either there is something really fucked on my end, or there is a problem with the Mac port. Sorry to bother you all, I'm gonna go bawww at Willem now. 
 
If that WAD file is loading into your editor correctly then there's no reason it shouldn't work in QBSP. Weird. 
Grahf 
Which editor are you using ? 
I'm Not Sure The Editor Used Is Directly Relevant, But 
it's gtkradiant 1.4 on mac os x 10.4. I convert the map file to q1 format with sleepy's java map converter. I would be using Willem's excellent Toetag, but it rendered my stupidly big map at molasses speeds on this old hardware.

In qbsp's source code, warnerr.h, I see that there is an "errSeekFailure" which is obviously what I'm getting. When and where would this be called?

I've tried several wads, most straight from quaddicted and a few I've assembled myself, all giving the same error.

Actually, I just had the horrifying thought that it could be failing to seek because my hard drive is dying. Yikes. Though I haven't noticed any other similar problems. 
 
Oh, I didn't realize it was a Mac port. In this case you, can put all the blame on Willum. Is there any other compatible QBSP you could try, perhaps with a Windows emulator? Doesn't MacRadiant save to .map or why do you have to use that converter? 
Grahf 
Indeed, the editor is not relevant, however for some reason, sometimes during .map generation, it can generate weird stuff.... anyway, the fact it is a Mac porting is certainely the issue.
You may should try with TxQBSP instead, or move to a PC... :( 
 
The fact that it's a Mac port should actually have very little to do with it. I use that version of it all the time and it works fine for me. I can't imagine what the issue is here...

Definitely try another version of QBSP and see what happens. If it's my fault, that's fine, I'll fix it - but I'm having a hard time buying it at this point in time. :P 
Mac-hate Is Digital Racism 
 
 
Grahf

Email me the MAP file and the WAD you're using (preferably something reasonably small) and I'll try compiling it myself. Should be easy to track down what's going on... 
Upgrading Is Digital Genocide 
 
 
Ahh OK, grahf has a PowerPC machine. I don't believe these tools are set up for big/little endian swapping. I believe the tools are currently Intel only.

I'll put that on my task list. :) 
Doh! 
I had a feeling that might be the cause of my problems. Thanks for looking into it anyways. 
 
I'm working on it. It might be easy and it might not be. I'll know more by the time the weekend is out. For now, you could compile in a Windows machine by using Parallels or something ... or just use a regular version of QBSP for now. 
Some Basic Questions 
I have a door but the angles 135 and 315 don't seem to work. Am I stupid ????

And how can I make a trigger that makes another trigger operational? 
Re 8970 
1. not sure, can't say i recall having any problems with those angles.

try 134 and 314? could just be those specific angles or the door could be linking with others. check that each door's bounding box isn't intersecting another.

2. short answer, you can't.
long answer, you can.

make an info_notnull but as a brush entity. (make it a trigger_once and rename classname to 'info_notnull'.

make a 'think' key and set it to InitTrigger.
make a 'nextthink' key and set it to '0.5'
make a 'use' key and set it to 'trigger_once' or 'trigger_multiple'
now set targetname.
set up any other relevant stuff like message or delay or whatever.

when you trigger this thing, it will turn into a normal trigger but will not do anything before. 
Thanks For The Quick Reply 
1. 134 and 314 don't seem to work properly either.
I uploaded a testmap where I have this problem:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/door.map.zip
2. Thanks I will try that :) 
 
try fudging it by giving the broken doors negative 'lip' values. 
 
That seems to do the trick :) 
 
you know what would be wild?

make a program that will load a bsp file that has had it's vis information calculated and somehow allow you to manually set which portals are visible from other portals. 
Necros 
make a program that will load a bsp file that has had it's vis information calculated and somehow allow you to manually set which portals are visible from other portals.

Pure nightmare !! 
 
Or how about a program that would let you directly edit the light map? Could be useful for fixing those odd errors you get sometimes or just for creating some interesting effects. 
 
not really directly editing, but it would be awesome if you could both assign a bitmap image as a light pattern on a spot light as well as be able to specify 'noise' on both sunlight, minlight and normal lights. 
Editing The Light 
Probably the best way to create a program for editing the lights would be a custom engine. Just add the ability to "paint" by applying a dynamic light to the scene which gets written to the lightmaps fully. Then add the ability to save those back into the bsp. Only problem is that you'd have no way of restoring those edits to the bsp next time you compiled. Unless you recorded a demo of yourself doing it... 
<- 
 
I Love Posting This Link. 
Whenever someone says, "wouldn't it be cool if quake had..." chances are decent that pOx's eUtils has done it.

http://quake.chaoticbox.com/

I quote from the readme:

Tyrlite+ contains support for OpenQuartz ( http://openquartz.sourceforge.net ) LIGHT noise extensions. These allow you to apply noise algorithms when lighting a level to break up common color-banding problems, or acheive more "organic" looking lightmaps. The following attributes have been added to the eUtils Quiver defs for all lights:

"Noise Level" (_noise) accepts a floating point value from 0-1.0 (0 is no noise). You can "overexpose" the noise with values greater than 1.0, but the effect is usually undesireable (values of 0.5 or less are best for subtle effects).

"Noise Type" (_noisetype) can be set to 0 (Random), 1 (Smooth), or 2 (Perlin).

"Noise Resolution" (_resolution) controls the size or scaling of the effect. Higher numbers make the end effect larger (lower detail).

"Perlin Noise Persistence" (_persistence) This controls the perlin noise decay per octave.

You can use the "-noise" switch from the commandline to add random noise to all lights, but note that you cannot currently use noise on Global lights (Sunlight or Minlight).


Too bad it doesn't do noise on sunlight, pretty sweet otherwise though. Presumably you could get the code straight from OpenQuartz, but their hasn't-been-updated-in-five-years website wasn't terribly helpful. 
That's Cool 
i guess you could rephrase my above post as 'wouldn't it be cool if someone haxored pox's stuff into aguirRe's utils? :P 
Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X (PPC) Compatible 
wouldn't it be cool if it was cross-platform? 
Hmm... 
I thought all the id code handled byte swapping, could be mistaken though. 
Autosaving 
we've discussed this before, but i have no idea where it went...

i wanted to implement this for my next map, and i was thinking:
send console command save ne_autosave
and in a config file bind f8 "load ne_autosave"
f8, afaik, doesn't do anything and it's both close and seperate from f9.

opinions? 
 
can you use stuffcmd to load the game as well as save it? that would be better. (i.e. when user hits "jump" or "shoot" while dead, instead of doing the normal thing, the quakec would trigger a load then.) 
 
this is for quoth, so no qc modifications.

but yeah, i don't see why you couldn't do that.

in void() respawn:
if (coop)
{
// make a copy of the dead body for appearances sake
CopyToBodyQue (self);
// get the spawn parms as they were at level start
setspawnparms (self);
// respawn
PutClientInServer ();
}
else if (deathmatch)
{
// make a copy of the dead body for appearances sake
CopyToBodyQue (self);
// set default spawn parms
SetNewParms ();
// respawn
PutClientInServer ();
}
else
{ // restart the entire server
localcmd ("restart\n");
}

it would just be a matter of replacing the restart command at the bottom. 
Need Someone With UnrealED3 (UT3) 
I need someone with UnrealED3 (the UT3 version) installed to take a brief look over a map I have been slowly working on for a loooong time now to help me decide whether I should continue slowly building upon it or whether I should just put it out of it's misery.

Download it HERE
Arrow 
As I'm making a frogman model I'm confronted with a strange qc compile habbit.

I reconstruckted the model on the enforcer qc, this means I used the shoot section to evaluate its harpoon action.
As I compiled the arrow suddenly blasts to the sky.
I couldn't find a reason for it, so I changed the
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 16';
from the model_fire section into
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';
and now the model shoots somehow left to the player, but not exact aiming its goal.

What I don't get is that they both seem to harm the player.
Also if I change the -24 a measure further the arrow shoots in the ground.
It seems impossible to aim it straight to the player.

Another strange habbit occurs on the model that's in the water.
It is the same subroutine I use for as the land model.
Only the land model shoots an arrow, the watermodel only shoots but there doesn't appear an arrow in water.
Does this mean the conditions for a model to spawn is different than on land? 
 
have you called makevectors(self.angles) before using the v_ unit vectors? 
Yes 
as I thought this part was the positioning of the shooting angle of the model itself, it didn't make sense to me the arrow shoots straight to the sky.

void() harpi_fire =
{
local vector org;

self.effects = self.effects | EF_MUZZLEFLASH;
makevectors (self.angles);

org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - self.origin);
};
 
 
ok, that bit looks fine, now you need to check if launchharpi is correct. 
Well 
It's the same as the enforcer, but I must admit it is not a usual qc.
It is a combination of two models, who will be going to be melted as a water and a land model.
So the problem might as well lay in another part, although both of the models use the same Launchharpi.


void(vector org, vector vec) Launchharpi =
{
local vector vec;

if (self.classname == "monster_enforcer")
sound (self, CHAN_WEAPON, "enforcer/enfire.wav", 1, ATTN_NORM);

vec = normalize(vec);

newmis = spawn();
newmis.owner = self;
newmis.movetype = MOVETYPE_FLY;
newmis.solid = SOLID_BBOX;
newmis.effects = EF_DIMLIGHT;

setmodel (newmis, "progs/pioen.mdl");
setsize (newmis, '0 0 0', '0 0 0');

setorigin (newmis, org);

newmis.velocity = vec * 600;
newmis.angles = vectoangles(newmis.velocity);

newmis.nextthink = time + 5;
newmis.think = SUB_Remove;
newmis.touch = harpi_Touch;
};
 
 
i see a potential problem here. you have a variable 'vec' being passed into the function, and you also have a local variable 'vec' being declared at the start.

remove the local variable and that may fix your problem. 
Necros 
I'm not so familiar with the stats although I'll believe you.
Remove the local variable, is that

//vec = normalize(vec);  
 
No, this:

//local vector vec;

Then you'll be using the variable you passed in rather than the local one. 
 
yeah, the normalize(vec) is actually very important. normalize makes whatever the vector passed in a unit vector.
that is to say, the vector is reduced from whatever it was so that it's total length is 1.
this is how you can then multiply vec by an arbitrary number to create consistent velocity (ie: projectile always travels at 600 units per second). if you didn't normalize, the velocity of the projectile would change in relation to how far apart you and the enemy are. 
Thanks! 
I included it in the qc, but I wondered. I always thought that the

org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

positioned the point of shooting from the monster, where the last three numbers were the actual position of its gun.

With these coordinates I get a shooting frogman which shoots its arrow 24 units above its gun, but the arrow goes left above me.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/frogman.jpg 
 
org = self.origin + v_forward * 30 + v_right * 8.5 + '0 0 -24';

assuming makevectors has been run, the above line will set org to a position 30 units in front, 8.5 units to the right and -24 units up (all monsters are 24 units above the ground, so -24 will make it right on the floor).

the reason it's shooting nuts is because when you call launchharpi, you are calculating the trajectory with self.enemy.origin - self.origin but your spawn point is at org.

in order for it to work correctly, the function call should either be:
Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - org);
or:
Launchharpi(self.origin, self.enemy.origin - self.origin); 
Indeed! 
It might as well be above my hat but it seems to work.
I just get a little confused by the -24 as it still shoots above the players head.
It reminds me at the moment I placed the new monster in game and it flew 24 units above the ground.
I decided to lower all frames. So it is this difference that shoots the arrow overhead. Can't think of a way to overcome this now. 
9000! 
 
It's Over 9000. 
just take -24 off.

it's shooting up because you are doing:
self.enemy.origin - org

think of it this way:

self.origin = '0 0 0' (you)
self.enemy.origin = '128 0 0' (monster)

this would be both the monster and you being at the same height.

but now, you are calculating:
self.enemy.origin - org
let's forget about v_forward and v_right for now.
that makes org = '128 0 -24' because the math is: '128 0 0' + '0 0 -24' = '128 0 -24'.

so think of it like the enemy.origin is the gun which is -24, so it has to shoot up towards 0.

removing -24 from the vertical element will make the monster shoot straight horizontally.

remember shamblers, how their lightning goes downwards or droles shoot at the player's feet. the drole shooting at the player's feet was completely unintentional and was a by-product of the spawn point of the drole missile (which is above the origin of the monster, so it shoots downward at the player which is the opposite of what's happening to your monster). 
Alternatively, 
if you want the monster to shoot from it's feet, then change the trajectory vector.

instead of Launchharpi(org, self.enemy.origin - org);, do Launchharpi(org, (self.enemy.origin + '0 0 -24') - org); which will make the monster shoot at your feet too. 
Right 
Thanks for your clear explanation!

I understand now how this positioning works.
I just couldn't understand why the arrow kept shooting above the monster, although the cooordinates were right.

Then I realized when I imported the monster into Qmle it was 24 units above the ground.
So when I put these models back in game the arrow shoots right.

Now I need to know how I can lower the model 24 units and keep their original shooting point.
It sounds kinky, but it seems Qmle imports models rather rough.
One moment they are exact on the 0'0'0 axis.
But after playing in game they suddenly drop 24 to 48 units down the zero line.
Also it seems as if there is no difference between the zero line and, let's say a multiple above or below. 
 
all monsters' feet are at -24 units. 
So 
Noone has UnrealED3 (UT3) installed? 
Jago: I Had A Quick Look 
Heh - my first time ever looking at UnrealEditor. The level looks pretty smart, You obviously blocked it out with the brick texture. I never work like this, although I know a lot of people do. I actually dont think that the red brick texture should be used anywhere in this map. I think if you went for some tech-style textures (metal panels etc) which would go with the trim. The trim (the meshes and stuff) look like they are out of a spaceship, or an oil-rig or something.
I think you would find that the level would start to materialise into something which looked a bit better-themed if you slowly went through the map and replaced all of the brick textures, with dark metal panels and suchlike.

The layout looked prety interesting - multi-tiered, and nice interconnection. So I would say you should finish it for sure. Just do more with tech-style texturing and good old brushwork :D

Nice work 
Looking Into Making A New .map Editor 
Tell me, what features do you like and what parts do you not like. anything goes.

It will be implemented in Erlang with plugins written in Erlang. The newest release of Erlang includes wxWidgets and OpenGL so I decided to learn how to use wxWidgets. 
Good Luck 
I'd say these are the important features:

Good Cameras
Decent Texture System, with texture lock and multiple WAD support
Ease of use entity listing (def, fgd, whatever)
Ease of install / setup
Slice Brush Tool
Vertex Manipulation Tool
Prefab Library

Probably some stuff I'm forgetting there. 
Damn 
Viusal (named group) hiding is nice as well. 
Some Notes 
| Good Cameras
Is that good camera controls? Ability to change camera positions quickly? i have an idea (look below)

| Decent Texture System, with texture lock and multiple WAD support
I consider multiple part of the virtual file system I will have to make.
Texture locking is for moving brushes, correct?
And what kind of User Interface controls are needed, tagging textures and using that to browse sounds usefull for instance.

| Ease of use entity listing (def, fgd, whatever)
I already started with using a fgd file to see how i can make my own format: http://3spire.com/quake.txt
it is based on Erlang terms and can be loaded easyly, will this format work?
Configuration will also use this kind of file, so that it can be loaded easily.

| Ease of install / setup
I plan on using the same install system of Wings3D

| Slice Brush Tool
| Vertex Manipulation Tool
These should be able to be done with plugins

| Prefab Library
Also done with plugins, so that the prefabs can be configurable

| Visual (named group) hiding
I would like to be able to provide multiple views into the same map as represented as named tabs. Each tab can control visibility of each brush/entity and the positions of the 3d camera and 2d grids.
Another idea is to make brushes and entities each belong to multiple layers, and hiding/showing layers are per tab as well. 
Awesome 
QuArK does some things really well.

-I LOVE the interface (how you create and edit things) and could never get into the major brainfuck that are the radiantish editors (Blender is easier...). Not to mention not having a mess of lines but just dots for the grid. So such an interface would get my love.

-All the texture alignment features (apart from locking I think).

-grouping things in folders, also being able to hide those.

The texture browsing is badly implemented, vertex editing is plain horror.

So Vertex editing is what I am after the most. Especially if you could then triangulate for new edges. 
 
Cameras - all of those. Extras like 'walkthrough mode' and so on are just a waste of time, although a feature I'd like to see is 'mangle readout' so that placing camera entities inside the level becomes easier.

Yeah, texture lock means it doesn't move when you move or rotate the brush - not an easy technical challenge. Changing projection options between local / global is useful as well.

Tagging isn't as useful as it sounds, even though it does seem like you're going for an 'all wads on the HD' approach (which is great). I say this because wads are usually named in a fairly logical fashion - the ones that aren't tend to be not very good. For me such a feature would be an extra. If the texture listing is alphabetical then you're probably good.

Having said that a 'currently used in map' toggle would be good. Worldcraft is a popular editor (I use it as well despite the bugs) which has a very nice texture system - you couldn't go wrong by copying it.

For an entity list remember that it needs to be editable by mappers who may not have any coding knowledge - the simpler the better.

Tabs = win. Especially if they're user editable.

And finally, make everything you can customisable as far as the interface goes. Nobody works the same way, so the easier it is to turn the grid from lines to dots or chocolate drops the better. For example :)

Like with most 3D editors, ease of use and end user customisation options tends to win out over powerful functionality. 
Hm 
'Worldcraft has a nice texture system' that's only true if you count not having to convert the wads (in 3.3 at least, 1.6a has shitty texturing). 
New Editor 
What will yours do that will set it apart from others? Or is it just a fun personal project to learn programming stuff?

I think strong brush manipulation tools are key for working with large and complex objects - actions like flipping, rotating, scaling are very helpful and save time for the mapper.

Also, it's probably not a must have feature but I really love 3-point clipping. 
 
What will yours do that will set it apart from others? Or is it just a fun personal project to learn programming stuff?

this is the first thing that came to me mind.

as grahf said, good brush manipulation is a must. rotating groups of brushes by arbitrary angles (with intelligent vertex snapping onto the grid). more powerful automation of texturing over curves (being able to propagate texture alignment as if multiple faces were a single one, for example). mixing between the straight forward regioning of gtkr and vis groups of WC.

basically this late in the game, it'd take a lot to make me switch editors. 
 
I have always wanted to create a mapping program, but the interface bits is my more immediate concern.

I would like to get this to a level of making maps for Nexiuz.

I also would like to model the editor to be more like Wings3D, where there are commands that can be done on vertex, edge, face, object.

And concerning the convex nature of brushes I would like to be able store a complex brush while editing that gets decomposed as multiple brushes when saving to a .map files.
That should solve many problems with brush editing I think. treating it like a 3d model rather than a convex object.

for curve texturing, that sounds possible with the internal representation of the brush I have decided to use. And it annoyed me as a mapper that I had to manually adjust texture offsets to get them to match.

This is not the best time for me to start a project (getting married in a month and I travel alot) but this will defiantly sustain my attention. 
 
"And concerning the convex nature of brushes I would like to be able store a complex brush while editing that gets decomposed as multiple brushes when saving to a .map files.
That should solve many problems with brush editing I think. treating it like a 3d model rather than a convex object."

This is something that I wanted to do for ToeTag but, brother, it's a bitch. If you can get it working it'll be great but I haven't found a nice, reliable way to break down meshes into convex chunks yet.

Although I haven't tried my octree idea yet... that one had promise. 
 
In fact, if you've got a handle on things like how to do texture locking and breaking down meshes and that sort of math in general - we should get together and maybe do a cross platform version of ToeTag or something. 
 
concave, not convex, right?
That feature would be a true killer feature. 
 
dunno if this is what you mean, but it would be awesome if you essentially build a 3d mesh out of n-sided polys just like in 3ds max and the editor would automatically split ngons into tris. afterwards, it would look at the face normal and whichever direction is closest, north, south, east or west, it would simply extrude the face backwards, keeping it parallel.
ie: you make a collection of faces that face upwards, it would extrude the face down allowing you to make cool trisouped terrain easily. the same could be applied for caves. 
 
Madfox looks very nice the frogman :) 
The 
Type of advanced brush treatment you're describing isn't in any bsp editor I've seen (anyone else?) so if you need testing then let me know.

I'm pretty busy so testing to destruction I probably can't do, be an update a week wouldn't be a problem. 
Moving Discussion Of New Map Editor 
Why? 
 
 
Yeah, all the mappers are here. :) 
Maybe 
all editors are there....

preach, you've got email. 
Toetag 
Does Toetag work in Linux, since Apple's current operating system is mostly Unix based ? 
No 
Would using a GPU for VIS be a possible (and sensible) idea? 
 
"Does Toetag work in Linux, since Apple's current operating system is mostly Unix based ?"

No, it heavily relies on Cocoa and Objective-C. The underlying OS isn't really a factor. 
Linux Mapping 
Radiant is probably your best bet, either the venerable GTKRadiant or the somewhat newer fork NetRadiant. 
Necros 
What went wrong with your building outside the limits experiment? I don't remember :P

I'm thinking of a similar sort of thing, a brushwork skybox. 
The Hell, Will It Ever End! 
99.60% and it takes longer than forever even on a quad core machine. At this rate, I estimate it will be done in around five days. However, the problem is that I will be out of town for a month tomorrow (I'll still have a computer available, but a slow one).
So, does anyone here by chance have a really fast machine and is willing to help me out? Willem, that 16 core thing of yours - would it be possible to use it for this or is it only for work stuff? 
 
ijed: absolutely nothing! you can build outside the +/-4096^3 playable area to your heart's content, just don't ever let the player walk past that boundary because they 'loop' back to the opposite side of the map (like in pac-man) but the collision behaves as if you hadn't looped back.
also, don't let the player shoot projectiles past the boundary because they loop back too. if this is for RQ, it would be a good idea to place triggers along those boundaries to remove projectiles.
also, as a side-effect to this looping, you can't place any point entities outside the boundary, but bmodel entities are ok.

there is a hard limit though. you can't build past +/- 8192. anything beyond that doesn't get displayed at all. in fitzquake, it looks like you have farclip on-- it's just cut off at that point and you see the void (or hom).

this behaviour is attributed to the fact that the coordinate system of the server runs on variables twice as large as that of the client. 
Negke 
Play russian roulette: Set up a script that zips and uploads the file in 120 hours, then shutdown the pc. 
 
negke

I could try and run it but it IS a work machine. I can't tie it up endlessly with a VIS process... 
Hehe 
with 16 cores, just keep like 4 for you and the rest for vis. :P

well, unless it's used for cg rendering or something and let me tell you, 16 cores rendering would be pretty damn badass. 
Thanks 
 
Re: 9035 
are you could just make a script upload the file every few days along with it's .vis file to the same spot and you can keep checking to see when you have a complete map by starting the vis process up on your slow machine. 
Negke: 
there is a hard limit though. you can't build past +/- 8192. anything beyond that doesn't get displayed at all. in fitzquake, it looks like you have farclip on-- it's just cut off at that point and you see the void (or hom).

this behaviour is attributed to the fact that the coordinate system of the server runs on variables twice as large as that of the client.


this is not quite right. Both server and client use floats for their coordinate system, but the network protocol uses a special 13.3 fixed point format when sending coordinates. This means 13 bits devoted to the integer part of the number, and 3 bits devoted to the fractional part. So the precision is 1/8th of a quake unit, and the highest possible number is 4095.875 (lowest is -4096)

so when a client is rendering anything with coordinates that come from the server, it will never be outside that range. But the server side location and physics are actually working, just what you see is wrong.

The question of how far quake can draw world polygons should just be covered by the gl_farclip distance, which is configurable in some engines. Not sure if there are any other factors besides that. 
 
I made a google group because this forum is not very efficient, its only one thread. 
9040 
oh sorry. when we were talking about it before, it was a little complex so i guess i forgot some of it.

i'm not really sure what was happening regarding that 8192 hard limit, but that no matter what gl_farclip setting i set, i could never seen beyond, what i was guessing would be 8192 units away from the origin.
there was a solid cut off with just void at that point that didn't move at all. 
Necros: 
hmm, must be some other cause then, maybe the vis tool uses some distance limit? Does it show up with r_novis 1? 
 
Willem: Hm, I see. Don't want to cause you any trouble of course. I just want to finally get this thing out for good (and as soon as possible, not only in October). Maybe you could at least let it run during a lunch break for an hour or so to see how much progress it makes? I would then continue from there.

Spirit: Indeed, but I don't like the idea of leaving the computer on for such a long time when I'm not around. 
 
negke

Sure, email it to me or put it up somewhere I can download it. I'll run it overnight or something if you want... 
Excellent 
 
 
if anyone is still interested, my solution to my problem above with long vis times was simply to remove all the terrain into a seperate map. that map will only get a quick vis, leaving the left-overs of the original to get a full vis (which only took 20 hours vs 700-1200~, lol). 
 
What does that mean? Can you have separate maps like that for release, or is this just a way to let you iterate without killing yourself? 
Necros 
I am confused about what you said.. Is it really possible to fastvis only one part of a map, and then fullvis the rest of the same map ? How do you do that ? 
Do You Mean 
Having a .bsp placed in the map as a model? 
 
sorry for the confusion, i just meant that i split the map up. the first portion has enough terrain to connect the interior areas, but i reworked gameplay such that the majority of the terrain could be removed and placed in a seperate map to be played linearily after the first.

terrain seems to be a serious vis killer. all those odd angles and varied planes really fucks the BSP process up resulting in thousands of extra portals or whatever. since the terrain section is mostly wide open anyway, and vising would have limited to no effect, that map will just be fast-vised. 
Otoh 
i would be incredibly bad-ass if you could, for example, modify qbsp so that if you cover an area with a 'fastvis' textured brush, any portals (or whatever they are) that are touching that brush are ignored in the full-vis process. :P 
Well 
Maybe placing bsp's as entities could work. How it'd not get screwed by vis (flickering entities) would probably depend on dividing it up into chunks with some trial and error though. 
 
lighting something like that would be a nightmare though. :S 
 
depends on the engine i guess. with a shiny swiss army tool like darkplaces it should work fine. for some fun copy some map to progs/player.mdl and do chase_active 1 plus chase_back 3000 (or something like that). a piece of cake for dp.

proper lighting (for the "external" objects "in" the terrain map) would hard though,yeah 
Add New Weapon 
Where can I find a suitable add new weapon qc?
I searched at Inside3D but all there is are modified already ingame weapons. 
Tutorial 
It's just a matter of finding the right tutorial:

http://www.inside3d.com/showtutorial.php?id=60

This one is about adding new weapons. You do have to pay attention to some of the slight cheats they have to use. One is that rather than setting up a new key to press for the weapon, they make it so that pressing 2 twice brings it up. They also don't make a new entity in the map for it, which is something I expect you'd do if you're making a custom map. 
Random 
Building http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qeu03.zip on modern Linux is easy, just remove the lines containing the del and coff2exe references.

And now I'll continue the search for a commandline mip2saneimageformat tool. Could not get MIP2BMP.EXE from http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qmaphack11.zip to work with Dosbox. 
 
Niels Froehling's QuakeTools-library would be an epiphany but compiling is just not possible without a tremendous amount of work I guess. http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames2/utils/bsp_pak_tools/qtools0.3-src.zip 
Found 
the right tutorial indeed, but after covering all errors I just keep
drawing 2 untill I too error.
Seems as if replacing v_shot.mdl is an easier way for testing.

Strange to conclude these tuts are so wicked in error messages.
Although they added my EathQuake. 
My New Mapping Technique Is Unstoppable 
i've been trying something new. essentially, working only from the top view, i'll drag out brushes 32 units high of varying width and length creating floors. i create a significant portion of the map at a time in this manner and i specifically try *not* to pay much attention to the size of those floors, other than keeping them on a 32x32 grid for texture alignment purposes.
i'll make the decision that, say, a generic hallway is 192 units wide, but everything else goes. a room can be any dimension (and any combination of brushes to create the final shape).
after doing this, in a side view, i'll semi-randomly move connected sections of floor up or down up to 256 units (in either direction).

this can lead to some pretty weird and convoluted shapes with that sort of 'tumor growth' mapping look. 
I'm Not Sure I Get It. 
pics to demonstrate, please? 
GTKRadiant Not Finding Quake 1 Textures 
I just installed GTKRadiant to try some Quake editing, and I set up the paths all right, but it won't load any textures other than the SHADER NOT FOUND one. When I look in the console it says:
Texture load failed: "textures/"
Any hints on what could be going wrong? 
What Version Of GTKRadiant? 
In the latest version of GTKR 1.5, I just put the .WAD files in C:\Games\Quake\id1 and point the editor to C:\Games\Quake for the game engine path. 
How To Extract? 
How do I extract the WADS from the PAKS? I've tried several programs but I can't see any .wad files anywhere... 
 
the wads aren't in the pak files at all, but you can get the textures from the individual BSP files.

But you can also get the wads here: http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/ (look for "quakewad" i think") 
Yay! 
Downloaded the quakewad file and put it in id1... Now works perfectly! Thanks! Although you need to rename the quake101.wad to quake1.wad. 
How Are You Guys Lighting Your Quake Levels? 
What light program and command line options? How many light entities? (relative to the number of brushes maybe, just to give perspective). Do you use minlight or skylight or both? How long does it take to run the light part of compiling the level.

I'm real curious about this cause I read a post where Than said the Plumbers Carry Shotguns level took about 25 seconds to light, and my current map is taking almost 10 mins for a high quality pass. There were 2758 brushes and 16621 faces at the time of this run:

----- Light 1.43 ---- Modified by Bengt Jardrup

Extra 4x4 sampling enabled
Soft light 3 enabled
Soft distance 16 set
File: c:\quake\id1\maps\wish16.bsp
Using minlight value 15 from worldspawn
1079 entities read, 625 are lights, 13879 faces, 3.9G casts
4 switchable light styles

lightdatasize: 467 kb

Elapsed time : 9:58 
Well That Aint Too Bad Really 
Many of my maps have taken double that (like 20 mins) in the past.

Plumbers Dont Wear Ties is a detailed map, but not too detailed, but also its not really that big. Its a realistic scale, and its condensed, but its not very big compared to say the Warp maps or Marcher Fortress. Load Bengts engine and load the Plumbers map and type into the console "lightmaps" and try it with your own map too. Lightmaps are if you like "X amount of texture worth of light info", so the bigger the map (so long as the texture scale is 1:1) the more lightmaps.
Also if you have plenty detail in your map that wont help the speed (but it will make the map look sexier :).

I wouldnt worry about it too much! 
 
I probably should have mentioned I used a Core2Duo e6850 (2x 3.0 GHz) with 2 GB RAM.

I wasn't worried really, it just seemed like 25 secs was way low for a map like that. I ran id's e3m1 this morning with the same settings as I used for my map and it took 2 mins 14 secs.

Anyway, I'm still curious how other people light their maps. 
Light My Fire 
this is my understanding of the issue...

When you have multiple lights with inverse falloffs hitting the same surfaces over a long distance, the light time tends to go up. With inverse and inverse square falloffs, the light level never completely hits zero, so if a light using those formulas is in a wide open area, all the surfaces within line of sight of that light have to be calculated, even if the light level only increases infitesimally.

APSP2 was a fairly narrow and cramped map, so while it was detailed, none of the lights had to cast very far.

The extra 4x4 sampling and soft stuff increases the time as well. But thankfully, light calculation time is not painfully exponential like vis, it seems to increase fairly linearly. 
Re Lighting 
Rick: are you sure Than didn't say 25 minutes? to me, that would seem more realistic for a map of that size with the amount of lights present. but maybe he just has a monster machine...

grahf: aguirRe and i had a discussion about this kind of phenomenon with inverse square lights. mostly it was regarding how using that delay type with switchable lights could quickly run up to the max lightstyles on a face warning.
he implemented the 'fade gate' command line. essentially, it will cut the light off once it's light level has been attenuated below a cutoff point.

setting -gate 1 on aguirRe's light util will cut down on lighting times by a large margin because it's disregarding a lot of lighting that wouldn't even be seen.

back to Rick: as for light utils and settings, for preview compiles, i use:
light -gate 1.0 -fast -soft
and final compiles is:
light -gate 1.0 -soft -extra
i don't use extra4 though, because that is just insane and will take millennia to compile. aguirRe recommends -fast -soft -extra4, but i haven't tried that yet.
it's really worth your time to look through all the info aguirRe has on how to use his tools: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmevis.txt the lighting tool has a huge amount of options in there. 
Lighting... 
Yeah, extra4 basically takes about 10x as long on my maps, so for a quick look I don't use it, with just -soft it'll light in about one minute.

I did read through all that documentation and it was very helpful, I've been experimenting with a lot of the new stuff.

I wasn't real clear on the Gate thing, but now I think I understand it. I'm also not certain exactly how the -softdist is supposed to be used, but it seems like I get a lot fewer of those abnormally dark faces when I use that option. The documentation (I think)indicated using small numbers like 3 or 4, but I've been using -softdist 16 
 
i guess it's impossible to change the player model's angle without having to use fixangle = 1 (thus changing the angle the player is looking?

it seems i will have to replace the player with an invisible sprite and then make a dummy model that follows the player's position in order for me to get the results i want? 
Yeah, I Think That's Correct 
but you probably need to use an .mdl, otherwise there might be engine issues (i know the weaponmodel expects to be a mdl, not sure about playermodel) 
 
i got it working with a sprite so seems everything's ok.

btw, your chase camera is kind of wonky and is prone to being shaky at times. it seems to pick up on stairs and angled floors in front of the player, where the crosshair is pointing or something. just fyi :)
i've also noticed a bug with the camera where, if you are looking down, and the camera is higher than the player, and you enter into a tunnel where the ceiling is lower than where your camera is, the camera goes psycho and starts moving in huge arcs outside the map. (this is with chase_up set at 32, which is higher than the default) 
Necros: 
yeah, it kind of sucks. I sort of stopped trying to fix it once i realized it's pretty much a gimmick and Quake is better in first-person mode anyway :) 
GTkRadiant 
Cannot compile in GTKRadiant 1.5 for Quake. Anyone know how to fix this for GTKRadiant 1.5? 
Nik 
Try the "search on this page" option while vieuwing all posts of this thread upwards with the word GTKRadiant. 
I Know It's Cheap..., 
but helpfull. 
So.... 
just looking around at the quake sources.......

how the fuck did they get any of that to even compile? o.0 
 
I know it's easy to point and laugh at the original Quake maps but those guys built some pretty cool levels with technology that was changing on a daily basis. That's tough to do. 
 
Not to mention the primitive tools. QuakeEd was ... pretty rough. 
 
i'm not laughing. i'm serious. the original qbsp was incredibly finicky which is what taught me to map with incredible precision making sure everything lined up properly etc etc.
looking at maps like e2m2, it's almost like divine luck or arcane power that would have allowed it to compile without exploding. 
Dog Rough 
But when you look at it you can see that they're at the minimum level of compilability.

Which means each of those maps must have undergone loads of iterations to reach that level, probably starting with something resembling Escher vomit.

Like Willem says, after ten years of trial and error with bsp it's impossible to make a comparison. 
Fake Shadows 
I constructed a terrain map with triangles.
After fitting all polyhedrons well tight the light seem to cast all kind of rare shadows.

Is there a way to avoid this odd behaviour? 
 
depends.

if you're using aguirRe's light
i found -soft will make these shadows a lot. even if the faces are perfectly connected. obviously, not using -soft is a solution, but not a good one. if this is a preview compile, and you have -soft and -fast, usually not doing -fast will reduce it.

it's always there though, afaik. smooth transitions of angles like terrain don't seem to go over well with any of the quake tools. :P 
Oh 
one thing, you can try using _anglesense 0.1 on lights hitting the terrain (and _anglesense on your worldspawn for sunlight). setting angle sensitivity way down like that will make light not attenuate much on different angles. this makes it look very shitty and weird (faces not really facing the light will still be bright as if they are directly facing it) though, so it may not be a viable solution (i haven't tried it) 
Black Slopes 
I made a polyhedron from a cube and cut of a pyramide on top.
After some punctual accurasy it can be used for terrain maps.
Point is that after placing it on grid and changing the topangles also replaces the cube foot after forcing it to grid.
So if I don't force to grid the lightning looks well.
After forcing it to grid the slopes cause black shadows.

I will try your light options. 
Haven't Tried 
anglesense either, but according to AguirRe it will give a softer, more diffuse lighting effect.

shadows on triangle geometry are always a problem - AFAIK they cannot be solved 100% - but I've never had the problem. So far. 
Too Many Static Entities 
My map compiles with no issues, but when i goto open it with my client i get an error of "too many static entities" any ideas of what this means? 
 
Not to state the obvious, but you've gone over the static entity limit for Quake. You'll either have to reduce the number of static entities in the map or play it on an engine that has a higher limit... 
 
whats the limit then? I'm running ezQuake as a client... I've looked around and most sources said its a limit of 128 is that true? then i noticed a post by rick earlier and by reading his post it said that he has 625 light in his map... how is this possible i think mine is 172 if im not mistaken... 
 
yes, 128 static entities is the limit.

not all light are static entities. essentially, only an entity with a model can be made static, so this only includes flames and torches. normal lights with no entities are not counted.
try to replace your torches with normal lights and use light textures instead if you can. 
 
damn.... kinda defeats the mood of the map im creating.. looks awesome with all the torches... thank you for the help... 
 
one more thing... is the 128 limit going to effect my backpack and flags too? because they have a model attached to the entity... 
 
you could look into other custom engines, i suppose, although curiously, a fair few custom engines which do have bumped up limits still have the old 128 static entity limit.

both fitzquake and aguirRe's glquake allow many more static entities, but as you're using ezquake, you may not be satisfied with those engines because they stick pretty closely to the original glquake. 
 
cross posted, re: 9096

there's 2 types of entities in quake.

static and dynamic. dynamic is most types of entities like monsters, items, doors, triggers, etc. these are also called edicts, and you can have a maximum of 600 edicts in a map.

the only reason torches are made static is because they never move, and never interact with the environment in any way. 
New Stuff Learned Today. 
Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. You can't trigger a trigger_monsterjump.

2. A trigger_once can't have a killtarget or it won't trigger it's actual target?

3. Clip brushes can be part of a func_door and will push monsters.

4. The model limit is 256. 
 
1. nope (trigger_monsterjump has no use function)

2. nope
killtargets are processed first, before targets are.

3. i know it definitely pushes the player, so probably monsters

4. yep 
 
Well, I though clip brushes didn't affect monsters since they won't cross gaps filled with them. Maybe that's a game logic thing though. 
 
that happens for a different reason. ai decides how it moves based on the visual hull (hull 0) while collision is based on the respective hulls (1 and 2). a monster could walk over a clipped service and wouldn't fall, but the ai decides not to. 
 
For a clip brush to be part of a door it seems like the clip brush has to be surrounded by regular brushes, or maybe the door model has to be bounded by real brushes. Something like that. I had a door with two regular brushes at the ends of a long clip brush (looking from above) which pushed some scrags upward and it worked. I removed one of the real brushes and then it didn't work. 
I'm Not Sure 
but i believe that the clip brush must be within the mins/maxs bounding box of whatever bmodel. 
Yeah 
Clip must be 'inside' the normal brush model or they won't collide.

BBOX explanation - the space is defined on the grid with three negative and three positive numbers. so -1 -1 -1, 1 1 1 gives you a 2sq cube.

All objects work like that, including triggers. So don't expect a L-shaped or diagonal trigger to have an Lshaped or diagonal area of effect.

The only trigger that can be triggered in standard quake (I think) is trigger_teleport - useful for the classic black box monster spawning or auto-porting the player when a condition is met (eg. kill an enemy). 
Pre Lauching Elevator 
I made an elevator in the corner of my map to bring you to the top of this little bunker, but it seems to always start moving upwards just before you get on... Is there a way to decrease the 'sensitivity' of it so i can get on first? 
No. 
func_plat activation trigger is based on mins/maxs of the bmodel in question. the only alternative is to use a func_door + trigger_multiple combo instead which would allow you to set a custom trigger size (or change the func_plat). 
GTKRadiant 
This has been covered before I'm sure, probably in this very thread, BUT...

I've downloaded GTKRadiant 1.5 for my Windows BootCamp partition and it's running fine ... except I don't understand where to put my WAD files so it can see them. Any hints? Their documentation is equal parts missing and abysmal. 
 
OK, after reading way back in this thread I see I need to put WADs into Quake/ID1 but that seemed to be crashing GTKRadiant this morning when I tried that on a whim. I guess I'll try it again tonight. Weird. 
Pre Launching Elevator 
It sounds like you're using a door (which is triggered as soon as its touched) instead of a plat (which triggers when you reach it's center).

Give the door a name and make a trigger_multiple to make it start moving. Put the trigger_multiple right on top of the door/plat and make it 32 units smaller in the X and Y directions that way the player will have to be completely on before they touch the trigger.

You'll probably want the delay before reset time on the trigger to be long enough for the door to complete it's travel up and down. 
Why 
does the ai use the visible hull? bug or feature? 
Not Sure 
But its the cause of fish and scrags sometimes going through walls, although the bugs are slightly different. 
Pre Lauching Elevator 
It was an odd shaped platform which seemed to be the issue... So I went with the basic square shaped one instead. 
Like I Was Saying Before 
If your platform was a Z shape for example, then Quake would just draw a big square bounding box for the trigger. Slightly smaller than the Z, but not following the shape. 
 
Sorry for the string of noob-ass questions, but I'd really like to be building something by tonight.

Do GTKRadiant users typically compile from a command line or do you go through the trouble of telling the editor where to find your compile tools? If you go through the trouble, how do you do it? Is it a hassle? 
 
not gtkr, but i use sikkpin's qe3 which is essentially very similar.
i never use the menu system, although i believe it's the same thing. i have one of those gamer keyboards, and i have a macro to compile my map bound to one of the keys.
before i started using qe3 (and before this keyboard) i was using gtkr1.4 and i'd just keep a command prompt open in the background and what i wanted to compile, i'd just switch to it and use the previous command button which would launch a batch file. 
Hmm 
As necros said, just use batch files for compiling, the in editor menu gets a bit trippy when compiling for Q1.

Also, you might want to try using GTK1.4 and mapconv, there's a tutorial how somewhere on necros' site [ http://necros.planetquake.gamespy.com/gtkrq1.html ], the interface/creation flow was changed quite a lot in 1.5, for the worse in my (and a fair few others') opinion. You may prefer the 1.5 interface, but I'd suggest trying out both versions and making your own call... 
 
I set up the in-editor menu. It's pretty easy, you just edit the XML file sitting in the q1.game folder. The one thing I can't figure out how to do is copy the BSP to the right directory and start the game up. So I need a command line open for that regardless...

Oh, and here's a story for the stupid. I set everything up last night and I made a small test room with a light. It compiled, loaded into the game, everything was grand. I then booted back into OSX to resize the partition I gave Windows because it was too small (FYI, 15GB is too small for Windows Vista and a Quake editor). While doing this, I misunderstood something and ended up killing the Windows partition entirely.

So ... I re-created it and reinstalled everything AGAIN. Only this tims I allocated 32GB. Let's hope that'll be enough. 
Yeah 
windows partitions need about 10gb (or more maybe, for vista?) just for the OS itself and then you're gonna want at least 2-4gb for your paging file.
you never really notice that when you're setting it up on a native windows machine, but when you're splitting between mac and windows, it becomes noticeable. mind you, mac isn't exactly a lightweight either; i spent a couple of days cleaning out all the useless software on my macbook, but i needed about 80gb for my macos partition to be able to work comfortably.

anyway, on the subject of gtkr, i personally hated the 1.5 version of the program. they changed fundamental UI stuffs in there which made it a lot slower to use (eg: operations that used to take 1 key press now would take 2), so even though 1.5 supports q1 natively, i found it harder to use than to just save a q3 .map and have a batch file that runs a converter first (aguirRe's, i believe, is the most up-to-date) and then compiles.

as for batch files, just make a bunch of them (for different compile levels) and put them on your start menu (or get rocketdock which is essentially the mac dock for windows) and you can just click the appropriate one and never have to touch a command prompt. 
Lol 
My c: is 80gb 
Another Vote For 1.4 Here. 
Yes, I'm gonna keep on beating that dead old horse. 
Linux? 
I'm thinking about installing Quake and GtKRadiant on this new Linux box I've got.

Can anybody point me in the right direction? 
Netradiant 
the gtkradiant based off 1.5 that the darkplaces/warsow? guys use. 
FitzQuake 0.85 Question 
Is there a way to make it so I can launch FitzQuake to check out my level without it resizing every window on my desktop? Or is this just a Window wart that I have to accept? 
 
OK, I guess the answer is to run GTKRadiant in a non-maximized state. That seems to reduce the amount of swearing I need to do each time I test the map... 
Willem: 
if it's fitzquake 0.85, you can run it windowed but with a -height and -width equal to your desktop -- this will fill the screen completely but without your desktop actually switching modes, which might help. 
 
Ahh. that's something I hadn't thought of. OK, will try, thanks! 
Dumb Simple Question 
setting sunlight?

good value for day time light?

I don't understand the angle situation. I've just never bothered to. Can someone give a simple explanation of how they'll work? 
Ofhand 
No, but just read AguirRe's docs:

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/

More and more concise information than you'll need. 
Offhand, Even 
 
Nice 
Thanks Ijed. I can't believe I haven't read through that stuff already!
Kind of confused about the implementation of 'second suns'.
My basic understanding is that I just put _sunlight2 in worldspawn with a lowish value and it will lessen ugly shadows? 
_sunlight 
or take one sun and lighten those ugly shadows with a light.exe -light 15 so the deep darkened places keep their luminance for a degree of 15. Helpfull, while it diminish placing lots of extra lights.
^v^ 
Yeah 
it's really not _sunlight2, it's _sunlightarea_minlight.
it's a different minlight for areas that the sun hits. 
Oh Okay. 
Thanks guys, I think I actually get this now. 
Hammer - Selection In 3d Window Issue With Catalyst 
I confirm that this solution to Hammer 3d window selection issue works:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=4&start=8179

I have put this file into the hammer directory and the problem on my laptop is fixed.
http://rapidshare.com/files/138119760/atioglxx.dll

Great! I can continue now. 
 
I just wish there was a similar fix for Nvidia cards. 
I Think It's The Same Dll I Posted A While Back 
It works, but if I look at a face and not all of its verticies are visible in the window then the projection screws up, aligning the last UV coordinate to any other visible vert.

That's a bad description. Basically the UV's are all fucked up. That's better.

And Orl, there will be such a fix for your card, AFAIK Nvidia is much better supported, although to be honest I didn't know there was a WC problem.

What the DLL does is disable stuff, you'll notice there wasn't one there beforehand. WC checks if one exists and if so uses it in favour of the onboard library.

Does anyone have the knowledge + inclination to make one that forces software mode on? In WC1.6a there was an option for this :P 
Ijed 
Maybe I don't understand the problem with UV's that you described, but try to enable Texture Filtering in 3d options window. After enabling this option the textures look ok for me. 
Will Give It A Try 
If it works my mapping time will double. 
 
And Orl, there will be such a fix for your card, AFAIK Nvidia is much better supported, although to be honest I didn't know there was a WC problem.

Unfortunately, I very highly doubt there will be a fix. Basically the problem is, using any Nvidia drivers after version 182.50 in Worldcraft 1.6a in software mode, the 3D view is completely garbled, making it impossible to see anything.

And yet, even the older Worldcraft 1.1a's 3D view works perfectly fine with the latest Nvidia drivers... strange.

For whats its worth, I'm running Vista SP2 with an 8800gt. 
Ankh You Are Legend 
That works; turning off filter textures. Can't believe after pissing about with all those different (non) solutions I missed that option.

So the dll + filter off solves it for me - thanks!

Orl, have you tried 3.3? It might sound like a ballache to switch, but the texture lock alone makes it worth it. The renderer changed a fair bit (which is why I and others have had problems) but maybe its worth a try so you can map. 
Speaking Of 
textures and wc 3.3

does anyone else have problems converting texture files (not just because of overly large textures) with Bakers wad converter?

I think RT23 had some issues with that too - or maybe he helped me with mine... It's all foggy... ...what year is this? 
I Think I Converted Some For You 
But the wads you wanted were weird

I never had that problem until I tried to convert that WAD which you were saying you couldnt manage.

Cant remember if I had to use texmex or wally as well as the supplied util. Its all on this thread somewhere, lol!

Most textures convert fine, it would seem to be some wads which dont (!) 
Wrong Quake Lighting In Wolrdcraft ? 
I hope somebody here can help me.I have make some small maps and trying different stuff they compile right and start. But the lighting isn't just right... I don't know what's wrong. I downloaded the original quake one maps in a .map format and there is the same problem.

The map E1M1.bsp for example. Some corners and the first double door left is way to black. On the door you can't even see the textures....
Many places are pretty same as in the game but when i started the original map in the Pak0.pak not through Worldcraft everthings is normal.


I use fitzquake085.exe for the game and the Quakeadapter tools for compiling and testing.

What tha hell am i doing wrong ???
Please reply cause i want to make a real map and not test maps anymore, and that's the only problem that prevents me from getting starting.

sorry for bad english i am from germany! 
Heh Dont Worry Man! 
Open the .map file in a text editor, find some of the light entities and copy the text and post it here.

or upload one of your map files and ill take a look if you like.

Also take a screenshot of the Run Map window you get in Worldcraft when you press F9 "to run the map" and another screenshot of the "tools -> options -> Build Programs" window.
Seeing those might help too..... 
Lights 
Some corners and the first double door left is way to black

Maybe you use the wrong light options?
With Aguier's compilers you should have good results with let's say:
light.exe -dist 0.6 -range 0.6 -light 15 -soft

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/ 
Yeah 
the converter doesn't convert any of my wads. I could try to convert id.wad and it wouldn't convert.

actually...

"Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\id_base.hlwad ... details ...No log exists."

So, I guess I'll have to convert them with Texmex? I don't really even know how to do that - anyone have links to more info on this?

Oh, and good luck bobbbybob - i'm sure you'll figure it out if you follow Ricky's advice. 
Pretty Weird Man! 
I dont really understand how the tool was made.
I mean what is .NET framework, cause I dont know if the tool uses anything like that or even anything different or what-haveyou.
Its pretty weird that it dont work for you.
I have loads of hlwads on my HDD.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=rjm5lvzf3i3

If you would like me to mail you any of them I will do happily :D 
Drew 
I get the same error. No solution yet.

BobbbyBob, post a screenshot - map data could help, but it sounds like you've got something badly configured somewhere in WC.

The screenshot will clarify the problem. 
Ijed, Drew ... 
"Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\id_base ...""

Are either of you using Vista or Windows 7?

The qconverge command line utility expects to be able to write to the folder it is in.

And come to think of it, the QuakeAdapter expects to be able to create a .bat file to execute.

I know with Vista the idea of having write-access to any given place isn't exactly a certainty. 
I'm Using Valve Hammer Editor 
and converting txtures via texmex, don't have a texture problems at all,

maybe it's time to switch to hammer editor to you guys? ;) 
Yeah 
Vista. It occurred to me that the security crap is most likely blocking the thing from working. Turning it off spams error messages so I was about to try converting in a 'non-secure' (aka 'non-fucked') folder last night but got caught up in something else. 
A Little Insight In How The VIS Process Works 
Might be helpful to some for a better understanding why things sometimes take so long.

Courtesy of BJP:

OK, this is just my interpretation of how vis works, it may not be correct.

Apart from its normal bsp building from the map, qbsp also generates the portal (prt) file. This is done by dividing all the empty volumes (player space) in the map into smaller pieces, called vis leafs. The more complex solid architecture, the more leafs you get.

These leafs are just convex polyhedrons (like brushes) with at least four sides (the simplest pyramid). All the sides of the leafs are the vis portals ("doors between leafs"), but I'm not sure if the sides against the solids are also counted or it's just the sides between the leafs.

When calculating visibility, all these leafs have to be checked against each other to determine which ones that are visible from a certain leaf through all of its portals. It's assumed that the player can be in any of the leafs (no matter how small they are) and look in any direction.

To make things worse, visibility is checked twice for each portal, one in each direction (back and forth). I don't know why this is.

It should be noted that this "leaf visibility" calculation is a simplified variant of the more realistic point-to-point visibility, which would probably take even longer time since the position granularity is higher. The leaf visibility method also increases engine overdraw, i.e. it'll have to render stuff even if it's actually occluded, thereby increasing r_speeds.

Since all leafs have to be checked against each other, this is a variant of [at least] an "n x n" (n being # portals) problem, which will scale very badly as n grows. This is the main reason why more complex maps take so extremely long to fullvis.

In fastvis, vis first makes some simple analysis and determines which leafs that can be trivially rejected as being invisible and all others are marked as "potentially visible", i.e. need more calculations using fullvis. If you just run a fastvis, all the potentially visible leafs will be rendered by the engine as visible, slowing things down. When building a map to be fullvis-time-effective, it's probably vital that fastvis can trivially reject as much as possible.

In fullvis, vis goes on to the significantly more complex algorithm, where it "flows" through all the potentially visible paths, checking if there's a way through. This work is divided so the simpler paths are calculated first, since they will probably be used in the more convoluted paths later. This is the main reason why vis slows down so much while running, it has left all the heavy parts for later.

The division also lets vis manage the multithreaded aspect by having several threads doing different paths (but still the simpler ones first). I can't say though if it's guaranteed that all simpler paths have been done by all threads when the more complex ones are about to begin. In my version (and most others), that's a non-issue, since the paths are all done sequentially by one thread in the right order.

With increasing # leafs and portals (which you can read at the beginning of the prt file), you can probably realize that the amount of calculations grows very quickly. 100 portals will generate 40,000 "work items", for 1,000 portals it'll be 4,000,000, 10,000 portals is 400,000,000 and so on. I don't want to think about 100,000 portals ...
 
Re Light Problem 
Hi thanks for the answers.
Ricky, here are the screenshots and compile logs.
http://rapidshare.com/files/302918736/quake_screenshots.zip

With light.exe -dist 0.6 -range 0.6 -light 15 -soft it's like no rad / fullbright.

But I didnt' know that you can configure the light.exe thanks for that info MadDog. Maybe someone know how to set my light settings right.If not, i will put some more light enities and a higher brightness value in my maps. This will work i think...

The lighting in the compiled originals quake maps have irritated me. 
OK, Weird. 
Well I need that actual light entity information, you have sent me the information for somebrushes with a light texture on them.
The light entities will be at the bottom of the document (the .map file that is) and will look like:

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "200"
}

As for the command line options well I would use (for a map the size you have) -extra4 and nothing else.

But yeah you can use a "wait" key in your entities to make the light spread out further or be more concentrated.

A wait of >1 will make the light more concentrated, i.e.

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "400"
"wait" "2.5"
"origin" "blah, blah, blah"
}

And a wait of <1 will make it go further, i.e.

{
"classname" "light"
"light" "200"
"wait" "0.3"
"origin" "blah, blah, blah"
}

You can also use "delay", but Im no expert on that one. I seem to remember delay of 2 being nice effect. 
The Screenshot Solves It 
That's a door that's fullblack? If it a door or other entity (func_wall or whatever) then it fullblack because the origin is outside of the world.

This means that it doesn't start inside the vis'd (lit) space.

Select it, the red X in the centre is the origin - if that's outside of the lit space (inside a wall, like yours seems to be) then the whole thing won't be lit at all. So make a recess for it to fit into or make it smaller so the origin is inside the world.

It's worth remembering that although entities look like they're normally brushwork in many ways they behave like point entities.

In other words, they only care about where their origin is when it comes to light and vis. 
S S 
Those were missing from the above post.

Also 'brush entities' as opposed to 'entities'.

Having a baby is the greatest thing in the world, but your head is all over the place for lack of sleep. 
. . . And 
Its an optimisation (AFAIK) of AguirRe's that the compilers don't light all brush entities no matter where they are, like id's did.

Definately a plus, but also shows another b0rky map feature common in the originals.

Mind you, very easy to be aloof ten years+ after the fact. 
Thanks for the help! The last post is what i wanted to know. I found it weird that the original quake maps had different lighting when starting in Worldcraft. Thought it was a problem in my Worldcraft configuration or something.But that explains it all.

And i am not sure if you notice that the in_game_screenshot.JPG was a screenshot of the original E1M1.bsp not mine small testing maps.

Anyway Big thanks! 
Yeah 
That's why I said that AguirRe (who's compilers come bundled with the wc3.3 adapter) made optimisations that id didn't.

If you used their compilers it'd work without showing the door black but take alot longer. and run very slightly slower in game I think as well. 
Congrats Ijed! 
you lucky father and happy mother.

apparently the same goes for a good map:
Having a map is the greatest thing in the world, but your head is all over the place for lack of exit. 
Thanks 
silver_key-gold_key-exit.

change-feed-sleep.

Now that's a nerd comparison. 
Pak File Programs 
PakExplorer: 'explorer' type view, limited to 8 character filenames. sucks.

PakScape: 'explorer' type view, not limited to 8 character filenames. converts all upper case chars to lower case and progs.dat is case sensitive. sucks.

DZip: not limited to 8 chars. doesn't change char case from upper to lower. is NOT an 'explorer' type view, just a long list of crap so very difficult to organize pak files. (as it's primarily for zipping demos anyway).
sucks.

are there any other pak file programs? one that doesn't limit file chars to 8 or change the case around and that has a proper way of displaying files so as to be able to organize things well? 
Heh 
That is one thing QuArK can do very well. 
 
there is a pak plug-in for total commander. It satisfies my needs for exploring pak files. 
 
i was under the impression that both of those could only open and extract files from paks? 
 
Nope, QuArK let's you save just fine. 
 
I have just tested and the tc plugin is creating pak's as well. Very straightforward 
Necros 
Pakker 
 
thanks :) i wasn't able to check myself today.
wasn't able to find pakker though, but i should be able to use quark as i've already got that. 
Pakker 
Wad Problems 
so, i made a few pathetic textures and im trying to get texmex to put them in a wad, like i did once before i think, but now when ever i try to import it gives me "was ignored" on all the textures

the textures are in .bmp format and i believe they are 8 bit color

...i don't get it any clues? 
 
i remember that happening, and don't really recall why it did, but i'm pretty sure if you convert your bitmaps into 24bit targas, the problem should go away.

it might have to do with the 8bit bitmaps not having the correct palette (it's not enough for it to be 256 colours, it has to be the correct 256 colours). 
 
Are the bitmaps compressed? That might be it. 
Copy 
Your texture, then 'paste image as new mip' in TexMex. 
Ok Thanks 
those both worked :D

... i don't know how to compress bitmaps so i dont think i can decompress them :S 
Brush Heaps 
I'm working on a terrain map. I use triangle shapes to lift the corners to equal heights and then use force to grid 1 to fit the brush.

Sometimes the brush takes the grid on a counter line and it is possible to move the brush back into its original position, gaining a clean, converted brush.

Othertimes it gets out of grid and causes the vieuw to get out of position.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/align.jpg

The first method , without forcing to grid, brings a well compiled map with errors, caused by the compiler with warnings and heling points. But a fitting brush order.

The second , with force to grid and reposition, brings a misaligned map with less errors and a better compile log, and a rather blurry brush fit.

How to avoid the process and which would be best suitable?
I never minded thes misalignements, I'm already glad the compiler takes it. But then again, the small difference could change vistime considerably. 
 
when i make terrain in qe3, i just do my terrain mapping in 3d view after copying and pasting all the triangular shaped brushes i need.
i keep the grid on 16 (or 8 if i need fine details) and just pull individual vertices up or down depending on what i need in the 3d view.
this usually creates good results for me. 
Actually 
It would be really ace if editors allowed you to select say, 4 brushes and lock 4 vertices which all interleap with a simple keyboard shortcut, then you just drag the locked vertices into the appropriate position as one, and then "ungroup" them. 
Yeah 
or when you rotate a group of brushes. why do editors persist in snapping vertices to different points when they were initially sharing the same one...

also, why does firefox keep underlining 'vertices' like i'm spelling it wrong. what a bastard. 
Heaps 
As I read, I think my failure is caused by using the 1 grid option in force to grid. It turns out to become a disordered 0.x grid position that hardly can be healed. 
I Dont Know How You Managed To Find Such A Problem 
Which editor do you use? I forget..... 
 
your terrain generator program should automatically snap to grid too, so i don't know why it would change again if you snap to grid in the editor. 
Snap To 1... 
... it could be that, unless you are zoomed into the maximum, your manipulation on the different brushes is just not lining up and not that it is actually off-grid.

I would not go below 8 for snapping unless I was trying to fit the terrain to an object that was not on the same grid reference, and then I would definitely zoom right in.

I use BspEditor and can zoom to 1600%. At that level it needs a very distinct mouse movement to move one unit and snapping acurately is easy. At the standard zoom (75%) it is impossible to line up brushwork in single unit movements even though the editor is 'snapping'. 
Grid Account 
I use Quark63. It took quiet long before I could sahape a terrain map.
I don't use a terraineditor. Maybe a silly way I come up with.

I started with a triangle brush. Made it as precise I could. As long nothing happens to the brush it stands on grid with integers.

Then I turn the grid to 1 and force the outcorners to the 1 grid point. Of course the origin of the brush gets disordered so I have to force the whole brush into grid again.
That's my startpoint with terrain mapping and it compiled well.
Now I can make a terrainmap of all the triangle brushes. All goes well untill I lift the outpoints of the brush to level it with another brush.

From there the two outcomes appear in Quark.

Some brushes after distorted flip to a decimal but after resizing the brush with 1 the force to grid puts it exact 1 gridpoint aside. So I can easily rearange it untill it fits its origin.

Others get distorted and will never line up with the others. They will fit on x and y-axe but not in the lenght.

So I was thinking. Maybe I shoul force to grid only on a 8 or 16 grid. 
 
The wonders of QuArK. This is just normal behaviour from my experience... 
Terrain 
I am no terrain expert and it is difficult to make suggestions without knowing what you are trying to achieve. But... if you are doing anything on a large scale, then use a terrain generator and do all (most) of the modelling in that and then import it into the editor.

I did a large lump of terrain in FMB-BDG in the form of a cavern. It was over 1000 units in each direction made up a few thousand triangles of 64 units. It took about 30 minutes to do in the generator - I dread to think what it would have taken in the editor.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5075/fmbbdg16bu3.jpg

You can probably make it out in this screenshot.

When I had finished, I ran the BspEditor Brush Merge and got it down to about 900 brushes (from memory). 
Well I Use The Folloing Method: 
1 - select the brush tool, set it to "wedge" shaped (triangular prism)

2 - select a suitable texture

3 - quicky make about 4 or 5 wedge shaped brushes

4 - in the "top" view I use the vertex editing tool to move the corners of the brushes into whatever shape I want, usually on a grid not smaller than 16x16

5 - I switch to a "side" view and move the verticle edges of the prisms up and down to shape my terrain

Notes:

Nothing ever goes off grid. The editor is set to "snap to grid" and whatever the grid size may be, the points of my brushes snap to them.

Aligning the textures better is as easy as selecting my brushes and setting the attributes back to 0 (i.e. rotation, movement x, movement y, x scale, y scale), then click a button which says "to world", which tends to look OK.

You can use this method to make overhanging rocks and other intricate shapes.

It is quite time consuming but looks good in the end! 
Terrain 
I've just checked that old map and the cavern is 3000 x 3000 x 800 high. 
Is there anything similar to aquire's engine for q2? I was messing with q2 map, just made the first area, nothing special so far, 2 entities (start and light), but when i load it to the engine, the game just freezes and i see q2 using 99% of cpu. Wtf? 
 
i couldn't get the standard q2 engine to run either. there's quake2 xp and quake2 evolved that i know of. 
 
Quake2 envolved doesn't run it either 
I Want To Know 
but i dont want to peruse 9192 posts for the answer

how do you make monsters not move or attack even with the player right in front?

i tired clip brushes and making secret trigger button but those didn't work :? 
 
Put them inside a func_wall made out of clip brushes, but whose corners (BBOX extents) have a tiny normal brush inside.

Those normal brushes tell Quake that the clip brushes are there.

Then remove the func_wall when you want them to be active.

Never actually tried it, but should work. 
Hmm 
are the non clip brushes supposed to be in the Func_wall or out of it, because it dosent work when there in it and when they're out i get this error:

*** ERROR 13: Line 2131: Entity with no valid brushes or textures

1 warning

Elapsed time : 0:00

Peak memory used : 1.8 MB

!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!!-!
Build failed, because it did not create the (+BSP) file: C:\Users\alex\Desktop\q
uake\tmpQuArK\.\maps\mstart.BSP 
 
That's why he said to include a tiny, real brush somewhere within the func_wall entity. Quake won't complain if you have at least something in the entity with a texture on it. Hide it in the map itself by making sure it's inside of a wall or something. 
Yep 
 
Circular Jump Pads 
Remember those wicked jumppads in some Q3 maps that had you fly in a curve? The same is possible in Quake. Pretty obvious, but I only just thought of it again.

Take a look at this test map: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/pushtest.zip

The trick basically involves pushing the player towards a curved clip surface that determines the direction of the flight. The clip curve has to be fairly smooth so the player doesn't fall down prematurely. In the test map the small jump (1/4 of a circle) has 8 faces, the large one (3/4 of a circle) has 24. The map is pretty crude (but you'll get the idea) - it takes some experimenting with the pitch angle and the push speed. The larger such a push is (radius and distance), the uglier it becomes, because the clip wall and the pitch have to be a lot higher.

Now there aren't really that many situations where such a push would be useful. Imagine perhaps a castle with push-connected towers. Or a deathmatch map, although then one has to take into cosideration that NQ and QW handle the speed values in different ways.

At any rate, such a push can at least make for some funny wheee! effects. 
Hmm 
What about making a map where you fly along wind tunnels between different rooms and use keys to unlock new tunnels? Mebe with some water. And in brown... 
Like... 
... antedeluvian map ? 
QuArK And Changing Entities 
i has...have these new stuff in my progs that need entities placements on the map, but im finding that when i add an entitiy like ambient_drone i can't changeit, to something like ambient_front242. but i remeber doing it before somehow :S

the only solution i have is to edit it in the .map with a text editor but i find this somewhat of an out of the way solution

...i wonder if this makes sense 
Or 
why don't you just add the entity,
click on the object list,
and change your classname to monster_xxx? 
Oh...your Progs.dat 
search and replace function? 
Ya You Had It 
quark won't let me change classnames and i don't know why is what i meant with that paragraph and a half

and its kind of annoying because i could do it before i think 
 
QuArK lets you change classnames easily. Either slow double left click in the tree or edit in the detail view. 
State File Does Not Match Portal File 
A VIS error I could not find any documentation about. Does anyone here know what it means ?
It's a real error, not just a warning, no VIS is preformed. 
Ron: 
probably vis is trying to finish a partially-completed job, but you've changed the bsp since then. I think you'd just need to delete the state file, but i don't know what the filename would be (never used that feature myself.) 
 
I didn't know about this feature at all.
Anyway, reading your reply made try and just rename the map,that worked ! Thanks !
I've just switched to the WC 3.33 version so I might come back with some dumb questions later ... 
Surpsisingly... 
... aguirRe's tool tip does not mention this error :/ 
State File 
I think you just have to delete the vis file to that map your compiling and aguirre's vis will make a new one. I get this while updating and changing texture names in a wad file. 
Monster Count 
While betatesting my level I came up to some errors I forgot how to avoid them.

First there's the monster count eror. I assumed they were caused by the fish, with its double swimmonster_start in the qc. Strangley it didn't help help deleting it, because I still get a double fish count.

Second is the strange habbit of some zombies.
Their heads seems to run on while being killed, which is rarely difficult to trace while they're in slime.
I got the effect earlier with bones. I can't find a reason for it. 
Breakable Crates 
Do I remember breakable (not exploding) crates for Q1?

If so, does anyone know where I can get the qc/mdls from, if available? 
Quoth's Got Breakable Crates... 
Mounds don't :-) 
Extras 
Supports as well - Quoth's are simpler to use though. 
Crates 
Quoth code not been released so I'll look at Extras 
See If There's Been An Update On The Source Chode Thread 
Ahem.

What extras has is model swapping and emissions. So you can swap a mesh in the map for a broken one (external bsp) and spawn a spray of emissions at the same time - these can be sprites, models or other external bsps.

It's not really tied up into a ease of use package though - you'd need a few seperate entities for it to work. 
Although 
Emissions are well worth having - a very powerful tool. 
Mike 
Do you want our source? It's got extras inside, but also alot of other stuff. We're not supporting it (heavily commented) though, so you're probably better off with base extras. 
Ijed 
I appreciate the offer but I really only wanted breakablecrates for one specific event and it would have been easy to add it into my own modified progs.dat. Also, I don't want to go the effort of creating the models and things.

I'll just have to think of another option. 
 
mike, what's your email address? you don't have it listed here. 
Necros 
mikewoodham at msn dot com

Funny, I've been coming here since the one before but never actually 'joined'. 
I'm Looking For A 
mapconv by SleewalkR

any links? 
Necros 
Oooops...

I just realised that the e-mail sender will show as Dooby Pollocks instead of me, so your filters may think it is spam. 
Hehe 
it wasn't caught as spam, but it did confuse me for a second. :P 
Bspinfo 
what are the references to see if a bsp is vised level 4? 
Or 
is it a stupid question? 
Is That Bspinfo.exe ? 
How do you run this program? I never used it yet. 
Its A Comand Line Utility 
So stick your bspinfo.exe and your bsp file in some folder on your c:, take a command prompt into that dir and type:

bspinfo mapname

Cant remember if it tells what level vis was run at, but it definately tells you the size of the visdata 
Okay Thanks 
Will look into it 
Madfox 
I didn't see any -level 4 confirmation in bspinfo.exe, but while vis.exe is running you should see:
testlevel = 4
...and you'll have it! 
Yes 
bspinfo formally gives the same info that has bsplog.txt has, only there's no map to compile.

I wondered if there was a way to see how a level was vised. 
There Is: 
r_showtris 
Fine 
that's what I was looking for. 
Spy: 
I found Sleepy's Java Mapconverter in the devkit of tigger's unfinished "industri" project. Link:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/industri/mapcon_java.zip

Quite a useful tool, that.

Oh, and about breakables: Nehahra had breakables, lots of them. You can trigger em, give em health, have them throw many kinds of rubble, etc. func_breakable, func_sobject, and func_mindcrime were the classes, iirc. Amazingly I still have the Neh QuakeC source in a folder. Since Planetquake now sleeps with the Rotfishes, I'll up it somewhere (quaketastic), if anyone wants it. It looks extremely old (dated 2001) so I doubt Mindcrime would mind. 
But 
they can't be walked on, only downside. 
Grahf 
thank you. 
Grahf 
I would be interested in the source for Nehahra - if you can let me know when you are uploading it, I will watch out. 
Here We Go 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/single_player/mods/NehQCsrc.zip

Glad that my obsessive packrat tendencies came in handy. 
Huh 
Didn't know it had been released. 
Ah 
It's pascal, I remember the dev tool stuff.

Can it be c+p'd into regular Qc? Not enough of a coder to know. 
There Is A Readme File In There 
And it says:

More than a year after the release of Nehahra, I am releasing the "QuakeC" source code to Nehahra. I have placed QuakeC in quotes because it is not what you would call true QuakeC, but a Pascal-Hybrid. The compiler/decompiler was created by Armin Rigo, a set of utilities called ACCQC.

I have included in this archive REACC.EXE, which will compile a progs.dat from the .QC files. The error messages are in French. Sorry. :)


So yeah. Good luck with that, guys. Pretty sure this came from planetquake.com/nehahra at some point in the distant past. 
GTKradiant + Darkplaces 
Hello all,

I've been itching to create a map using the darkplaces engine, and since gtkradiant 1.5 has this option available 'out of the box' I went ahead and used this instead of Worldcraft 3.3.

I can compile a map and run it no problem, but here is my dilemma:

Not all of the textures load into gtkradiant. I've downloaded and installed the
rygel-dp-texturepack-high.pk3 and it is installed to:

C:\Program Files\Quake\Id1

The textures show up fine in darkplaces and in dpmod but only a certain few are showing up
in gtkradiant, and it is only like 5 or so that show up.

Can someone please provide me with specific directions on how to get all the textures to
load or show up in gtkradiant 1.5?

If I have to, I would be willing to use an older version of gtkradiant as long as I had
specific directions on how to set up darkplaces in it.

Thanking you in advance,

Protocol01 
Doesnt 
Doesnt Radiant require a .WAD file in order to view the textures? Rygels pack would be irrelevant especially in the instance of any editor because the textures which are "replaced" and "upgraded" by that pack all come from the originals which came from the WAD format used to create Quake.

The bottom line is that if you dont have the Quake wad file loaded into your editor then you wont be able to compile maps with all of the textures available from Quake.

The wads are somewhere within:
http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/

probably quake.wad or quake1.wad

The ting is there are loads of wads there for the Quake engine, and may have not been "re-made" by someone and have no hi-rez replacement. But that shouldnt meen you shouldnt use them because you can achieve many different themes with these wads and you dont have to worry that they wont load up in the end user's engine of choice. If you wanna use mega-hi-rez textures then use Source or Cryengine or Unreal Engine 3 or IdTech4 or something.......

[rant]
Merry Christmas BTW ;) 
 
i think its http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/id.wad that you need to load into your Radiant editor to work

bare in mind I have never used that editor, I always used Worldcraft, but I would have thought that this form of texture handling would be fundamental 
Matter Of Preference, Sorta 
Personally I find GTKRadiant 1.5 to be stupid and terrible, whereas version 1.4 is excellent. As you have discovered, Protocol01, 1.5 has a real problem loading external texture sets. I don't know why. If you had Quake 1 .wads, then they should in fact load from the id1 directory.

Version 1.4 cannot natively load .wads but it has no problem with TGA's and JPG's. Seriously, try exactly what you were doing except using 1.4 and you'll probably have no problem.

Have a look at this guide for a reference on setting up Radiant for Q1:
http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

Hmm, Ricky is probably right though, that you need to texture your map with the original quake101.wad. Then if there are TGA textures in the appropriate game directory with the same name as ones in the map's BSP, they will be replaced at runtime. The BSP needs those texture names and coordinates so it knows what to replace, and the ones from rygel's pack are far too big to fit into the bsp anyway.

Unless... what exactly do you mean by "mapping for darkplaces?" This has always kinda confused me. Which features and game are you trying to use? Cuz if you were trying to use Q3 or HL bsp support, then a lot of what I just said would be irrelevant. 
 
Thank you RickyT23 and thank you Grahf both for helping me. I guess I just assumed that radiant would have been able to read directly from the pk3 file, I didn't know I was going to have to have the .wad file. I see now that mapping for Quake 1 is VERY different than mapping for quake 3 arena. >.<

As for darkplaces, I mean that I was trying to make a Quake 1 map that could be used with the darkplaces engine.

I will try what you all suggested and go from there, thanks again and Merry Christmas all! 
Let Me Explain Things A Little Further 
GTKRadiant 1.4 has a variety of game packs for Q3-engined games, but none for Q1. In the guide I linked to in my previous post, what you are basically doing is building a Q1 game pack from scratch and script files to trick the editor. The single most important change is in the .game file, "default_scale=1" instead of .5 as is used in Q3. You still don't get .wad loading, so you export that to jpg/tga and load those instead. Then after making a map, you run the .map through a map converter to get it into Q1 .map format so that your compile tools can read it. It's all kind of a hack, and adds several extra steps to the mapping process, but it does work.

Radiant absolutely can read and load .pk3's from the base game directory, assuming the directory structure is laid out like Q3's. This is how Radiant loads external textures and models, after all.

GTKRadiant 1.5 changed all this by using a totally different (xml-based) file format for the scripts, game packs, map format, etc. There is a Quake 1 game pack, which allows for .wad loading, but I think how it works is that if you are in this mode, it will not load jpg/tga textures. Also, GTKRadiant 1.5 is just a crappier editor generally, that messed up the clipping modes, vertex editing, and brush manipulation compared to the glorious perfection of version 1.4. Gee, I'm not biased at all, am I.

If all this sounds horribly roundabout and complicated (and it kinda is), there is a simpler way. A Q1-specific version of Radiant, developed by Sikkpin, that is based on the original opensourced QE4 editor that id used to make Quake 2. So basically you get all the goodness of oldschool Radiant style, with native Q1 .wad loading support and none of the added cruft like curve patches that is useless for Q1 editing.

Link should be somewhere in this thread:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60225

Something else you might look into is guides on Nexuiz mapping, which uses the Darkplaces engine. Nexuiz mappers use a fork of Radiant called "NetRadiant," and I don't really know how it's different because I've never used it. However I do know Nezuiz maps usually have externally loaded jpg/tga textures, so you could probably find some info in that community on how to make sure they show up in a map, which directory to put them in, etc. 
 
Gee, I'm not biased at all, am I.
you may be biased, but you aren't alone.

the 1.5 interface is overall slower and clunkier requiring more keypresses to achieve the same goal as in 1.4.

i believe the intent behind the 1.5 changes was to make it more like a professional 3d package. ironically, i felt the changes moved it farther away (i use 3ds max). 
 
Grahf,

Thank you for the link and information. It was very insightful. I hope to get radiant setup soon.


Radiant 1.5 really sucks in my opinion, they keep messing up all of the features and usefulness, now it is more complicated to get things done, and I'm going to uninstall it and just use an older version.

Thanks guys. 
Willem 
Any idea what magic do I have to do to get UnrealED (for UT3) to properly take advantage of 4 cores on my new i5 750 rig? For some reason, it only ever seems to use just 1 (even when doing a level build) and I am absolutely sure I read that UnrealED does scale well with multiple cores. 
 
It scales to multiple cores during lighting rebuilds via Lightmass but UT3 doesn't support that. UDK would though... 
Hammer 3.4 And ATI Fixed? Maybe 
Have an ATI Radeon HD 2400 Series. So have the no select in 3D window bug with Hammer 3.4.
Just gave the new ATI driver a try. ATI Catalyst 9.12 Driver XP x64. Seems to be working. 
Refreshing Mapping Skills... 
Wow, I never thought the quake mapping community was still kicking. I've decided to finish my old quake1 DM level which has been sitting on my HD since early 2003. It's a great and pleasant surprise to see there are still enthusiasts to share mapping experiance with :D

Anyway, as I'm trying to relearn everything I've stumbled across an issue. I cannot get the teleporter to work. Everything seems to be correct but I get this error message when loading the level.

Object error in info_teleport_destination:
No targetname

In the map file I have:

Target_teleporter
Target tele1

and

Info_teleport_destination
Targetname tele1

I use GTK radiant 1.2.x something and Sleepwalkers mapconv tool.

Any ideas?

And a happy new year to all of you :D 
I Think Its 
"classname" "trigger_teleport"
"target" "XXXXX" 
Also... 
Make sure it's all lowercase 
Got It... 
Human error this time :P
Thanks for the replys.

And while I'm at it I might just throw you another question :) I want to make a lift that travels up only when a button is pressed. I get everything to work, but the lift starts behaving differently when connecting the func_button to the func_plat obj. Without the button connected the lift starts in "down" mode and raises when a player walks over it. However, when the button is connected the lift starts in the "up" mode. Then goes down when I trigger the button. AND after that it starts behaving as if it wasnt connected to the button. wtf?!

Any help here would be appreciated. I know it's possible to do this :) For example it works in the "Pinion1" map.

Thanks again guys. 
Ziffon 
you have to use func_door instead, not a func_plat 
Yeah 
You have to have a door which travels "up", cant remember the exact map file key/value of the top of my head.

You can have it travel a negatve or positive value "up" to 256 or 512 units. And theres a spawnflag for "toggle" (1 press, door opens, another press it will close). An you can link as many buttons or triggers to it as you like :D 
*theres A Maximum Value 
its either 256 or 512 - thats what I meant 
Huh? 
A door can move as far as you want - there is no maximum value. The distance is determined by its "lip" value. 
Fixed! 
thx for the quick response mate.

Sorry for spamming the board but any ideas on why I cant get the quad to spawn in? I use the "item_artifact_super_damage".

Also, while I'm at it.. the map is pretty much ready for some testing. Back in the days it was pretty easy to get some help with that, but how do you suggest I go about it today. Can I use this board somehow?

Cheers 
Yeah 
to quad to appear, item_artifact_super_damage must be placed. w/o any SF

btw, is it your maps safe1 and safe2? 
 
The item ist most likely too close to a wall or the ceiling (has to be 60 units) and thus falls out of the level. Load the map in developer mode ("developer 1" in the console) and you'll see a warning message if that's the case.

If you're looking for beta testers, post a note in the Screenshots & Betas thread. 
 
Spy: what do you mean with w/o SF?

Yes, I made safe1 and 2 and 3 is pretty much done now as well :P

Oh, developer mode :) Didn't know about that one. Going to try it out now. 
Developer Mode Rocks :D 
Thx, that really helped! Found a DM spawn point outside the level which for some reason caused the quad to not spawn.. odd.. but it works now :D 
Beta Ready 
well, beta is ready now :) Thanks for all the quick responses. I'll make a post on the beta board later. 
Code Question 
So say you had a bunch of quad damages in the room. Currently, they will all rotate exactly the same direction and start at the same angle so they are all perfectly in sync.

Is there a way in QuakeC to start them at random angles or change the rotation speed or do anything, really, to break it up and make it look more natural? 
Randomiser 
I'd add

self.angles_y = random() * 360;

to the spawn function. This would randomise the angle they face initially, which should make them look better differentiated.

You could also set .movetype to MOVETYPE_NOCLIP and then give them an angular velocity:

self.movetype = MOVETYPE_NOCLIP;
self.avelocity_y = 10 - 20 * random();

I wouldn't recommend this though, because it entirely eliminates the benefit of the client-side rotation built into the model. You'll have constant network updates of the rotation, which seems a bit excessive for the feature. So I'd vote for option 1, but that's how either could be achieved . 
 
"self.angles_y = random() * 360; "

Well, I tried that but no luck. I also tried putting that into a one shot think function that executed a second after spawning but that didn't work either. I'm currently thinking that the model is being rotated in the cached model itself and then every time it renders, they all pull from that same value or something? 
 
I should note that I've created a new item using the quad damage model so it's not the ACTUAL quad damage that I'm dealing with here. If that matters... 
Interesting 
Looks like the rotate flag overrides whatever angle you set in qc or the map. The only alternatives are either to remove the rotate flag from the model, and do the rotation using self.avelocity, or to create several frames within the model each with different rotations of the model, and randomise between those frames on spawn. 
 
Bah! OK, thanks. :) 
Stupid 
Installed Quake on an old win98 computer.
A little curious I couldn't get higher video resolution then 320 x480.
So I decided to install the update 1.08 but this didn't help.
So I installed the SOA pak to see, which also didn't help.
Then Fitzquake or glquake but they start up like mud.

How do I get my quake off the phone resolution? 
 
the update 1.08 is dos only
get the 1.06

Try winquake? 
Limited Resolution 
It has something to do with the video option screen.
Normally after installing quake it offers a resolution from 320x240 to 800x600, but for some reason the max only goes to 480x320. 
 
maybe a dumb question, but just how old is this old win98 computer? it's possible the video card doesn't support the higher resolutions? can you find out what kind of video card it has (if any)? 
Er 
well, that last question was retarded... it obviously has some kind of video card, what i actually meant was if it had 3d acceleration of if it was one of those ancient ones. 
Odd 
It's a mobo I caught out of the surplus and plugged in a disk, a video and soundcard, and finaly I can start a win98 program.
I got all these odd warnings about flipages not correckt screen resolution. I remember in the old 98 it had these errors with darkened screens and garbage messages.
So I'm just on the point Quake starts up well, but only with a max screen of 480x320.
It's not the 3d or something with the videocard, it's only the old dosquake version I can't force to 800x600 resolution. 
What Would It Take ... 
to give liquids an angle, a travel direction, like you can do in Quake 2 ?
It would be great to see water coming down or lava floating from one point to another.
Would it be possible to "steal" the code that makes it possible in Quake 2 and put it in a mod for quake 1, or would it involve changing the Quake engine itself ? 
 
quake2 did it with texture flags, which required a new texture format which the engine recognized.

quake could do it by implementing some sort of shader system, probably. 
No 
I can't do that, that would take considerably more programming skills then I possess.

And I guess it would be impossible to have a liquid texture (*) and combine it with a func_wall (+) one ? 
 
Just animate one of the water textures. Four frames are enough already. 
 
Neg, the trouble is that it would look weird in combination with the "real" water, especially with transparent features enabled. 
 
one trick i've seen is to build a river out of func_trains in an endless loop, with each train having water textures on it.

The "pox extras" mod (which also has some other water-based tricks) had an example map that did this, i think. 
Wow ! 
That's a great idea !
I'm going to try it out right now !
Thanks !

And I'll have a look if I can find the Pox mod, I must have missed that one. 
 
It looks fine with the real water since it's the same texture but yeah, transparency makes it complicated. So your options are: compile the map without transparent water, use the animated texture on a func_illusionary with alpha enabled if the intended engine supports it, or use the regular water texture and greatly increase the scale of one of its planes (by 20-30) - this will create a semi-believable flow-like look, at least on actual waterfalls 
Quoth Question! 
Is it possible to "activate" a trigger ladder? Or does it have to be 'available' at all times? 
Yes And No 
you have actually use a func_rotate_train to hack in a ladder that becomes activated.

i'm going to assume you're making a ladder that starts in a retracted position and then through a button extends so the player can use.

first build your ladder and turn it into a func_movewall.
now create your func_ladder brush.

give both those entities the same targetname.

now create a func_rotate_train and set the target to match the movewall and ladder. the func_ladder will move in tandem with the func_movewall. 
Append: 
you have actually use a func_rotate_train
you can actually use a func_rotate_train

i neglected the mention (although it's implied): make sure to tick the "visible" flag on your func_movewall or else your ladder model is invisible. :P 
Forthcoming 
A full system for locking and unlocking entities is something I wrote some test code for, right after the last version of Quoth got released. So it's something yet to be incorporated.

If you only need the ladder initially disabled, you can safely use the info_notnull hack. Give your ladder a classnameof info_notnull (as a brush entity) a targetname, and then set

"use" "trigger_ladder"

On firing the targetname event, the entity should spawn up. You can then killtarget it to remove it. By duplicating the ladder entity with different targetnames you could do it a finite number of times(if you were careful). Being able to switch it on and off any number of times is not yet possible, but it will be! 
Outfoxed 
Ah, that's a clever trick Necros! Yeah, the hipnotic rotating entities allow you to move triggers as attachments. One small warning - the trigger_ladder has an associated "outwards" vector to help push the player onto the ledge above/away from the ladder when they jump off. This does not adjust for the rotation of the entity, so make sure the vector is correct in the final position. Also, don't get tempted to allow players to hang on while it moves! I suspect bad things will happen... 
 
Necros: I think I have handle that.

Preach: that vector shit IS something I'll probably have to keep in mind - thanks! 
Quake Key Question. 
Just out of curiosity, is there any easy way to get a key to activate something other than a door in Quake? 
I Think That 
(without using any hacks, which Im sure other mappers here will be able to tell you about) you can make a door target another item. So you could make a door behave like a button by setting the sounds and directions so it moves like a button, but when you finally get the key you need to open the door, you touch the door and the door moves like a button would and triggers something else. I did this in starkmon IIRC :) 
Just give it a target - everything with that targetname will be activated. 
 
The question is a bit unclear - you want a key to activate lifts, trains, or whatever?

Do like Ricky says for standard Quake. Use a door that looks like a button.

The clean solution would be to have something like RemakeQuake's item_key/trigger_lock combination, where the lock can be everything. If you're ready to use your own progs.dat, you can rip this stuff from the RMQ source. 
 
I agree, I wasn't too clear.

What I actually want to do is activate some rising steps (which are really 6 individual doors) a few seconds after the actual keyed door is opened.

I may have been doing something wrong, but I didn't have any luck making a relay the target of the keyed door. I'll go back and try that again.

I'm trying to keep it simple because I'm at the 256 model limit. 
 
Have the key door target the first stair, but set "delay" to about 3.

Have the first stair target the second, the second the third, and so on, setting "delay" on each stair to 0.5 seconds or so.

Just off the top of my head. Shoot me if I'm wrong. 
 
Delay doesn't work on doors like it does on triggers. A func_door entity always fires its target immediately. You can either use different speed values for each step, stagger some trigger_relays or add a "use" "multi_trigger" field and corresponding delay values to each step/door. 
 
Argh, then it's a RMQ thing again. Oh well. It gets confusing.

Listen to negke. 
Wait 
Why not trigger all the steps at the same time and give them all the same speed? They're all different heights so will stop moving at different times anyway - resulting in a choral sound effect. 
Yeah 
Sometimes the most obvious solution is the hardest one to find... 
Hah 
I only know because I'm using one in a current map. 
 
lol. 
Got It Working 
I put a keyed door on the floor. It has the lip set so it doesn't actually move. Its right below what was the original keyed door. It's targeted to a trigger_relay and the original keyed door, both named "tryagain". The relay has a delay of 3 seconds and targets the six rising steps.

This works okay. It's not exactly the effect I wanted but I can fool with it from here.

Funny thing, I had the keyed door inset in the floor and it wouldn't get triggered. There were no other brushes overlapping it or anything, it was just like a piece of the floor. I had to move it above the floor to get it to work. I'll have to try that again because I just remembered I also changed it's angle from 0 to "up". Maybe that had something to do with it. 
Skill Question 
While testing my level I 've come up to an odd point of setting the skill level.

I counted all monsters and took their health count together. Then I counted all ammunition and tried a relation with their availabillity to match the health count.
But as the TE_DAMAGE of all weapons differs this isn't the right way to handle.

I can count the ogres and enforcers to reclaim their rockets and cells, but as they are also gibbable this is only temperary.

Is there an easier way to gain the outcome? 
Lol 
Use monstercount / (pi*thumb), then substract the release date.

Or just play the map and add enough items so that you can get through smoothly. Then declare this as Hard and scale down the difficulty settings from there. Then see how the testers do. 
Yeah 
You have to take into factor the players level of accuracy. According to teh games I play, my accuracy = 20-40%. So it is meaningless.

Always just play, play, and play again. Then get l00ts if testing done. :D 
 
Well I played rather several times only the hard and nightmare are the worst.
So I thought if I

TE_DAMAGE * ammucount = all monsters health + random

could compare it mathly. 
I Think 
There's too many variables to make an equation of it. Unless you want to get alot more complex than 4 variables.

What negke says works :) 
TF2 Swamp Theme 
Wasn't quite sure where to put this :P

TF2maps has finished their TF2 swamp theme pack that contains new models/textures/blah which you can download and use for free, its very high quality stuff!

http://swamp.tf2maps.net/ 
License? 
 
Error 
Don't know what happened after a qc-script, in game leaves the message:

PR_executeprogram : excessive stack (53 normal = 31)  
Nevermind 
bad scripting. 
Hanging Vines 
Doe's anyone know of a texture pack that has some nice alpha channelled hanging vines and overgrowth textures? Or any packs that feature some sort of old abandoned temple theme? I'm thinking more Mayan than Egyptian here, any info would be appreciated! 
Iirc 
the original rtgnosis texture set had a vine/leaves overlay with an alpha channel. 
Also 
Sock's Pyramid of the Magicians (pom) level. 
Grahf 
I had totally forgotten about that map, damn its perfect =)

Thank you very much! 
Hammer For Quake? 
I know this is probly in here somewhere, but...

Is there a guide / howto for editing quake maps in valve source sdk? Is this possible or should I just be using hammer 3.4 (3.5?)? 
Can't Be Done AFAIK 
Although search for Baker's Quake Adapter for hammer 3.3 - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you want to do. 
Edit In New Hammer 
My goal was to be able to edit maps in the new hammer, export them somehow, compile for quake with the new tools. I figured I'd ask here first in case there was a tut somewhere.

If it's not doable I am gonna fire up hammer 3.4.

It's been a few years (and a few computers) since I had a mapping environment setup. ;) 
Have A Go 
I've been meaning to do it myself since the latest beta version can apparantly show model meshes inside the 3d window. 
Killtarget Flag 
It works in Fitzquake, but it doesn't in Qrack.
Why could that be ? 
 
Could be the engine is Qrap.
What are you trying to killtarget and how? 
 
Shambler = dead = open gate
The gate was previously closed by another trigger. I want it to re-open (or disappear, that's good enough for me) when the monster is dead.

Qrap or not, it's got nice shiny stuff, I like ;)!

But what I really want is a level that can be played in multiple engines. Except Darkplaces, I've given up on that one, it is not accurate with the placing of items or monster spawns. 
Alright 
The problem is there's a glitch (or oversight) in the code that prevents monsters from using the killtarget field just like that. You have to give the Shambler a dummy target field for the killtarget to work.

You could probably also just set the "toggle" flag on the gate and make the Shambler target it normally.

Issues with item and monsters in DP often indicate improper placement, e.g. too close to a wall, that other engines ignore. For regular custom maps, any newer DP build should work flawlessly. 
NNoooooOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
----- TyrLight v0.99e -----
extra sampling enabled
colored output format: lit
BSP is version 29
1128 entities read, 956 are lights.
************ ERROR ************
TestLineOrSky: tstack overflow


Thats a bit of a grim looking one isnt it!?!?

Anyone here have any idea what that means? Had lit like 95% of the total faces when it spat this error :(

Please help! 
Ouch 
Can't help I'm afraid.

How much compile time to see the error? 
Probably About 20 Minutes, Maybe A Little Less. 
AguirRes light tool works though. Doesnt give any clues to the problem. It will have to do for now. 
RickyT23 
If you have the C code, you should have a look into it to figure out what's hapening: this is the first time I hear about this particular error... 
Is There... 
a hack to raise/lower the HP of Quake monsters? I think someone mentioned it before, but I am suffering from some intense mental fog at the moment. 
 
armor, check the progs.dat thread. 
 
armortype 1
armorvalue xxxx <-- however much extra health you want. 
Tanks! 
 
TAAANKS! 
(L4D2 / Swamp Fever / Plantation level)

A question - anyone have any advice /examples on how to make a spiral? Not a helix but a spiral as seen in SPoG's Q2 map (vertical spiral lift bars).

If I figure it out first then I'll post a .map. 
Spiral 
it's not quite SPoG standard but here's a pic of an old speedmap i did years ago: http://isoterra.co.uk/images/qspiral.jpg

basically for that i started with a 12-sided hollow black cylinder (128 units high in that pic), which each 'side' split diagonally (i started with one brush, split it first, then vertexed & copied it round to form the cylinder, making sure the split always went the same way. i then cloned the whole thing and stacked another on top; then it was just a case of deleting half the brushes & a little more cloning upwards

if you can master that then it shouldn't be too hard to work out how to do different shapes & sizes. there is also a much messier way of doing it by fusing 6 4-sided shapes together to make a cuboid and then vertexing the resulting cluster any way you want, but qbsp tends to get upset at large amounts of those! 
Play 
dont bite the hand that feeds you (my map)

Find it on the quaddicted.com website, in the singleplayer maps section, type Ricky in the search field. thehand.bsp

The very first corridor you come to the cieling is 1/4 spiral. Infact Slave To a Machine has a spiral in the generator room.

So two maps I made with a spiral. If you look at the maps I jave the .rmf and the .map source availaible if you like. Just email me or message me here and I will send you the sources 
Also 
rj:

nice spiral. also as or the 6/4 side cuboid technique - better just make one cuboid into two triangular prisms, then you cant go wrong ;) 
I Made It With 
4 sided shapes but got the offset wrong - will give the stack method a try - sounds alot easier tbh. 
Sorted 
It was the cylinder as an offset reference I was missing.

Problem was I didn't want to make an actual spiral but more something like a drill or screw.

Might well have a go at something a bit more ambitious with this. 
Trisoup It 
A drill might be tricky to do, assuming it's not the size of a room, because the smaller you get, the more difficult (or impossible) the technique becomes. 
Ricky 
rj:

nice spiral. also as or the 6/4 side cuboid technique - better just make one cuboid into two triangular prisms, then you cant go wrong ;)


oh you can. i have done anyway ;p

that's essentially what i ended up with above; it can just be a bit of a headache working out which way to split them sometimes; there are still several four-sided faces that need to keep intact

a full 'vertex block' (unofficial name i've given for the 6x4 brush thing) however can literally be bent anywhere on any axis, providing the result is at least concave. works great for natural terrain.. but probably isn't to be abused too much in minor architectural detail 
The Most Ambitious Thing I Attempted 
was actually in that speedmap pictured above; instead of leaving it as a pillar i tried to make it a full-blown arch with the spiral curving around. i got my head in a mess at the time & ditched the idea but on hindsight it should be easy if you build the curve before subtracting the negative brushes. might try it... i was actually wanting to do a big spirally setpiece as a finale for e2 :) 
 
That speedmap was one of the first maps I ever played (ran pretty slow...); that and Daz' graffiti maps are some of my favorite ("mapping-wankery-")speedmaps ever. 
The Drill 
Is the size of a room and not supposed to be used for drilling. The limitation of the grid is 2x2 so making a drill of 128 size I wouldn't even attempt - straight to .mdl.

Rj, the spiral made in the way you describe (assuming I'm not missing a step) comes back as invalid solid unless trisouped, though I haven't compiled to check it yet.

I still think back to SPoG - that map was insane for geometric complexity.

Hm, might try to coax AguirRe back to Quake 1 to see what made formations can be tweaked to compile better.

24 sided curved spiral anyone? 
Can You 
upload a .map of your attempt so i can see if you went wrong anywhere? 
Actually Scratch That 
i just opened up the rmf of that map and noticed that wasn't how i did it. each side was actually split into 4 not 2. i'll just upload the thing so you can have a look and pull it apart :) 
 
There's 
Sprials.rmf in the testmaps folder, or there's examples of 24 sided shapes from ctf1rq - with some geodesic domes in there as well. 
Although 
The 24 sided stuff is pretty limited.

...I remember I did include some helix' as well though - above the stairs off to the sides in the courtyard. 
 
i just put up a 24 sider in the same folder. it only goes down to the 4 grid at that size so you could in theory either half the bar widths or go for a full-blown 48 sider if you wanted to show off. you could probably get away with half the bars though at 24/48, i don't think spog's had that many 
Thanks 
Will take a butchers later though, got people starting to arrive. 
Spawning Items. 
Okay - so trying to do something with this not quite speedmap and wondering

how can I go about spawning a key in a map?

I'm working in Quoth, of course. 
Bah 
I was going to post a hacky way of doing it, but I'll hold my tongue. There's a correct way of doing it, which is to use the info_multispawn with a spawncount of 1, and set the spawnclassname and spawnfunction to item_key1 instead of a monster class.

A full write-up of the info_multispawn entity can be found here: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60173&start=257&end=257 
Thanks! 
 
Func_Train Trouble ... 
Hello again,

I have made a Func_train that goes round, it has 4 path_corners. What I want to do, if possible, is to make a door that opens up to let the train go true. The problem is, I don't know how to do that. Any ideas ? 
Well You Can Time The Door To Open 
At the correct time. Make a trigger_relay entity with the same targetname as the train. When the train gets triggered it will trigger the trigger_relay too. And you make the trigger_relay target the door, but give the trigger_relay a "delay" key with a value of "X", X being the amount of seconds before the door is to open.

Is it "delay" or "wait"? One or the other :) 
 
Yes, that's right. Though it sounds like the door is supposed to open not only once but every time the train passes it. In this case you have to add a second relay with the same targetname that fires the first relay again after the right delay, so the cycle starts over again. 
 
Is it possible to make a path_corner trigger the relay or even the door directly? 
No. 
But you can make the door trigger the relay. Or itself after the time the train needs to do its round - then you'd have to add the field "use" "multi_trigger" to the door. 
Btw 
Keep in mind this kind of delay/script may easily run out of sync if the train is blocked by the player or monsters. 
Thanks 
for your suggestions.
I'll try and work it out.
Otherwise I'll just have to bin the whole idea.
It's one of these "but I set my mind on it" ideas ... 
Another Way Would To Make The Door 
A train. You could set a path_corner at the open and closed positions of the door, and give them a "wait" key of however long you want the door to wait until it moves again. 
I Like That One 
that,s how i would want to do it

... 
A Note: 
Ricky, we've got that done on the code end for RMQ - triggering from when a path_corner is hit. 
Making Painkeep Maps 
I'm trying to make a Painkeep map using gtkRadiant. I saw that a while back, the makers of the Painkeep mode released a map makers kit which included custom entities. I'm having a heck of a time finding that kit. Does anyone here know where I can get it? 
No Color/texture Visable 
I've changes the func_train into a func_door because of the trouble Negke pointed out in #9361.
Everything is working fine, but the "lift" appears completely black. Could that be because it starts out being hidden ? 
Yes 
Objects will be lit where you position them to begin with.

Solid entities (lifts, doors, trains etc) do not cast a shadow during the light phase though, so in the case of a func_train you can position it wherever you like within the sealed map to get some light on it. It will then be re-located to the first path_corner entity when the map loads.

If its a lift (func_plat) then you need to put a light entity near it to light it in its first position (usually the fully "up" position).

Hope this helps 
 
Thanks Ricky.
Yeah, it's helpful.
Funny though, I put some Rune fullbrights on the corners and they do show (in supporting engines of course). 
Planckscnst 
Check the PQ archive at quakewiki.net - maybe they mirrored the Painkeep website.

Ron: Ah, so it's just a lift? I thought it was supposed to be a platform floating through the map. 
They Will 
Because they're fullbright - basically they ignore lighting completely and always show themselves at maximum illumination.

If the door entity isn't lit it means that it's center (bang in the middle of the bounding box) is inside a solid brush when the light is being calculated.

Try 'Start Open' and trigger it once on map load so its in the right position when you need it. An easier way might be to just give it a recess to fit into. 
 
Negke, yes, that was the original idea, to have the "lift" go round, and if you stayed on it you'd be moved into a secret area. But the main use was a lift to get up.

Ijed, I did that, create a space underneath, and it worked !

Thanks again, I'll remember to credit you guys when I'm done ;)

2013 or so ...

Only joking, the thing is that I'm always wanting to ad stuff, sometimes causing me to start all over again. The 1st map I ever made used to be quite small. The 3rd remake is quite big now. But also I had to correct a lot of stuff. I used to do a lot of carving, really bad. There should be more information on how to work clean. There is a lot of documentation on how to make a room, but not how to make it as efficient as possible, unfortunately. So before I found this website, I had to learn trough trail and error. 
 
@negke Thanks for the info - that led me to other Painkeep sites that I didn't know about yet. I've exhausted those and still haven't found what I'm looking for. 
Iteration 
Is a good, and fun, way to map - as opposed to having some rigid plan laid out in advance. 
Original Quake & GTKRadiant 
I'm having trouble getting the textures to display in the texture window when I'm trying to build Quake maps in GTKRadiant...

However, if I set the game to Quake 2, my quake 2 textures show up without any problems, even without the need to extract the files from the paks.

Is there a special way to setup Quake in GTKRadiant? 
 
Put the texture wads in id1\ 
 
Do I have to put the textures in a wad file first? There's only 1 wad file in the paks and it doesn't seem to have anything in it... While the "gfx" folder seems to contain all the textures. 
You Need 
 
Got it! Thanks! 
T-Junctions And Caulk 
Other than avoiding to overlap brushes, is it also necessary to avoid T-junctions when making quake maps? Doesn't seem to matter how careful I am, the compiler keeps reporting "# edges added by tjunctions" in the log...

Take a look at these pics, bear in mind the column or "pillar" is floating.

Avoiding T-junctions:

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3360/avoidtjunc.jpg

With T-junctions:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5436/tjunc.jpg

And is there a caulk texture to use when you want faces on a brush to not be calculated when compiling the map? Only thing I found was a "clip" texture. 
Lipsync: 
It is not necessary to avoid tjunctions. "X edges added by tjunctions" is not an error, that is just normal operation. QBSP ensures you will not have tjunctions in the compiled level by adding those edges. So you don't need to worry.

There is no "caulk" but there is something called "skip" which might do what you need -- see here: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60088 
Metlslime 
I see.

This skip tool will come in handy! Thanks! 
Er 
There is nothing wrong with overlapping brushes. Infact overlapping brushes is what the technology was made for. DO overlap brushes!!!

Having 2 faces at the same place on the same plane isnt a good idea because you have no controll as to which face qbsp will choose. 
I Find It Good Pratice.. 
not overlapping brushes. even though qbsp doesn't have a problem with it it does help towards neater brushwork in general 
Ricky 
At least in the case of BJP's tools, qbsp will always choose the face of the newer brush, the one that is further down the list in the .map file. 
 
even though qbsp doesn't have a problem with it

seriously, I remember reading an article about how the technology was devised which had diagrams showing how qbsp can take overlapped rough-shaped brushes and subtract everything outside of the inside space. It was what it was designed for! You can get some really neat effects by overlapping brushes, especially with things like rock work.

Things to watch out for which ARE important:

1 - illegally shaped brushes. No concave brushes please.

2 - corners of brushes being off-grid.

I have discovered that you can have overlap points off grid, qbsp completely re-models the brushwork anyway into wireframe. But having corners of brushes off-grid is a real no-no. Likely to lead to leaks, holes in the clipping hulls, homs etc. 
Hm 
Anything of grid is a no-no. Basically because qsbp snaps them to grid, which might not be where you were expecting. If you've got a load of stuff like that that's intersecting then you get a mess of unnecessary (and probably invisible) polys, holes in between structures and so on.

The grid is 2x2 though, and you can always spawn in models with a scrap of code for detailed stuff. Not many people realise / use bsp model spawning - which is the mutts nutts for rotating detailed stuff. 
A Minor Difficulty Settings Problem. 
I've made a part of a map that was perfectly playable in normal skill, the skill I test on because I'm a lazy bastard, but can't be done at all on Nightmare, the skill I always play on.
The Shamblers reload too fast for the player to have any chance of getting past them. Does anyone know where I can find the exact difference in skill settings ? 
 
"There is nothing wrong with overlapping brushes. Infact overlapping brushes is what the technology was made for. DO overlap brushes!!!"

Yeah, I wish this myth would go away but it persists for whatever reason. Overlapping brushes are totally fine and completely acceptable. QBSP will cull away the unseen portions.

"Having 2 faces at the same place on the same plane isnt a good idea because you have no controll as to which face qbsp will choose."

Untrue. It will pick the one that appears last in the MAP file. You can control this simply by cutting/pasting the brush that you want to appear last in the map editor. That moves it to the end of the brush list - unless your editor is doing something where it writes out the brushes in an arbitrary order. In that case, it's a failing of the editor rather than Quake/QBSP itself. 
Funny ... 
I've found a new way on how to get by them.
Funny how your own maps can bring out the creative player in you, I guess that's why I love Quake so much. 
 
Enemies fire faster on Nightmare, that's the main difference you cannot influence. The rest is item spawnflags to make them not appear.. 
Remove One!!! 
Or die!!! 
 
Anything of grid is a no-no. Basically because qsbp snaps them to grid, which might not be where you were expecting. If you've got a load of stuff like that that's intersecting then you get a mess of unnecessary (and probably invisible) polys, holes in between structures and so on

this. like i say, even if it compiles without a hitch most of the time, having loads of off-grid overlap points still leaves your map more susceptible to random leaks & the like, as well as being not very nice to build stuff on (say if you wanted to cut a cave out of the rockface, or build some architecture into it later on).

but hey, personal preference. i used to do it all the time but have much prefered working with natural terrain stuff since i stopped doing it. much prefer using triangular faces now 
And 
you should never need to test nightmare or find a way of making it easier, it's supposed to be fucking hard :P 
Grid And Overlapping 
not only should stuff be "on grid" meaning on the 1x1 grid, you should also build stuff so that it fits on the higher grid levels when possible. So if you have a 32-unit-thick wall, try to align it to the 32x32 grid. If you add an 8-unit-wide railing, try to align it to the 8x8 grid.

As for overlapping brushes, this is fine BUT the thing to avoid is having things overlap slightly, when they could just touch perfectly. So if you have two brushes side-by-side, don't just put them so they overlap by 3-5 pixels, make the edges actually line up flush. This is mainly for the same reason as the previous paragraph about aligning to the largest grid size possible. 
 
What is that information on grid alignment based on? Is that a gut feel thing, or is there a technical foundation behind it?

I'm not challenging you, but I've heard a lot of level design advice over the years that is basically couched in "this is the way I learned to do it". Well, great, but if there's no QBSP related reason to do it... :) 
Willem: 
Mostly gut feel, based on what i've seen, what i know about qbsp, and what i've absorbed from others. I think you are correct to challenge this advice as perhaps more "mapper lore" than solid fact.

Scientifically, i would have to make an entire map the "messy" way and compare it to a "clean" map to have any evidence that it mattered.

But, since brush faces determine BSP planes, it seems plausible that it would make a cleaner BSP if there were fewer unique planes and more nodes that cut along the same planes.

I can say from experience that maps with more orthogonal brushwork compile faster than maps with many angled planes, since i've done both of those types. And i see more (seemingly) extraneous face cuts in areas of maps that have a lot of non-orthogonal brushfaces.

I can also say from experience that when two nearby brushfaces are parallel but not coplanar, it is more likely to create additional cuts on nearby faces. (presumably because if they are coplanar there can only be one cut on nearby faces since there is only one plane.)

Qbsp does do a decent job of merging neighboring faces when it can, this mitigates the problem in terms of raw poly count, but i believe the extra bsp complexity is still there.

More facts on this topic would be useful. On the other hand, I have heard that even John Carmack has been suprised to hear certain results (such as the reported finding that 64-unit walls produced better vis than 32-unit walls.) [citation needed]

In terms of "advice to a newbie" i still feel better advising 'clean' brushwork, since it is proven successful, rather than 'messy' brushwork, which might be harmless but i don't think has the same track record. 
Amusing Footnote: 
I spent about 1 week making a small test map in ut2k3, for a job application. I built everything the quake way, all clean and lined up on a grid and flush with each other (though of course i used the subtractive brushes to make the initial rooms and some of the smaller alcoves.)

... and had all sorts of headaches with compile errors, geometry errors, etc!

Then i opened up one of the ut2k3 maps in the editor to see how they did it. What i found was: 1. there were only about 15 brushes in the entire map (rest was static mesh), 2. all the brushes were subtractive, 3. and they were all random sized, non powers of 2, off-grid, and slightly overlapping! And of course it compiled perfectly.

I ended up getting a job on a Q3-engine game instead, so it all worked out in the end. :) 
 
Haha, yeah, we rarely use BSP for anything these days other than floors and the occasional wall. Everything else is meshes. 
Can I Just Say 
really like the term "mapper lore". 
Wicked Grid Maze 
I finished a map two years ago. It was broken and ruined with brushes used on all gridsizes.
When I realized I could never get a clean bsp, as the map started leaking and homming like a rascal, I decided to start again.

I compiled everything clean on grid. It was a repetive thing to me, but to my surprise the map rounded out good.

Then I decided to add a terrain map, which was a construction of triangle brushes ending up in sloped edges. Apart the map compiled well.
When I added the terrainmap I had to realign all brushes to fit them on grid.
And this broke up all my smooth pathway, but it worked. 
And 
It's just good practice to keep stuff neat and orderly. 
Screenie! 
please 
Sure..., 
but now my smooth terrainmap only imports on rougher brushes by marking all on grid. Or I could ignore warnings.

Ricky.., you played the map. More or less..,
https://homedrive.ziggo.nl/gimli@home.nl/publiek/gimli30.htm

Is there something to do about model skins that keep get mirrored?
I broke an evening to get me a good baseframe,
and now it keeps removing front with backparts. 
Wrong Link 
Wow 
Is this really a MadFox map?! Looks neat.
Though I suggest you change the texture on the railings to something without rivets, a simple brown or gray metal. 
Can't Wait To Play It ! 
Looks great, MadFox ! 
Force To Grid 
Railings are dxf files which have no shadows, same as the hillslopes. This makes lighting a little tricky seeing the clear dxf file near a brush. Could have another texture but the hexen2 wad is rather bloomish.

My concern is that the middle low pix is a sloped pathcorner around. In the testmap the pathcorner was well closed, while in this map it suddenly shook all brushes in it.

I had to use "force to grid" for all and now it has more of a stairway. But I wanted to make a map once whith all brushes integer.

When two maps with both integer brushes is put together, is the need to replace the imported brushes back into integer origins normal? 
Hammer 3.5? 
Is Hammer 3.5 the one that can be coerced to work for Quake1 editing? I can't keep it straight anymore. 
Worldcraft 3.3 
Its the same thing really AFAIK.

Although I have heard of someone using Hammer for Quake ........ 
 
Is it the same?

OK, if not, where can I get 3.3?

And once I get it, do I need to do anything to it or will it "just work"? 
Well 
i'm using hammer 3.5, with out that fecking texture trouble off of WC3.3 
 
Cool! So I install 3.5 and then this QuakeAdapter thingamaroo and it's all good? 
Pretty Much 
You need to convert the wads though. It's semi automated - have to put them in the right folder. 
Madfox 
VeniVidiFuzi

is an awesome name :D 
 
This was discussed above, I know, but I need to ask again since none of the solutions up there are working.

I installed Worldcraft 3.3 and did the QuakeAdapter stuff. It loads up and seems to work but I can't select anything in the 3D view. I don't see anything about hardware acceleration in the Options dialog box so I'm kinda stumped.

Any ideas? 
 
Ahh, found this note in the help file:

"Note: if you are familiar with previous versions of Worldcraft, you may note the absence of the Hardware Acceleration checkbox. Worldcraft will now always attempt to run in OpenGL mode, and if that isn't available through hardware, it will attempt to emulate it in software."

Buh? Now what do I do? :-/ 
OK 
Not wanting to sound retarded, but this is actually a recurring bug. I have experienced it marginally on both my old GPUs, but the majority of the time it is fine.

When it happens, just to verify, when you put the cursor over the 2D view does it become a hand instead of an arrow?

Usually a reboot sorts it out on my PC, and it hasnt happened to me for ages, but others have had the same/similar troubles.

Another thing which may help would be the check you are using up to date drivers / drivers which work..... ?

Also out of curiosity, what GPU are you using? 
Also 
Instead of "hardware acceleration" tab, there is one which is imply called "filter textures" or "filtering" or something. I think that does the same / similar thing. 
Question 
you don't have to convert wads when you use hammer 3.5? 
Drew 
yes, you're still have to convert wads for using hammer 3.5, but it's much easier then converting via qadapter 
Hmm 
hardware acceleration was the only thing tempting me to move away from 1.6, but the above few posts don't make that look too promising! 
I Would Upgrade From 1.6 Because ... 
Texture use is much easier in 3.3.
If you rotate something the textures stay in proportion if you use texture lock. I find the "fit" check box easy as well. It allows you to fill out texture on a brush that is not quite the right size, but close enough to look silly.

Another thing I love is the option of making arches. You get a preview screen before the item is placed, where you can change the shapes and other stuff. It's really cool for making curved hallways.

I found the vertex tool a bit easier to use as well.

So, can anyone tell me what version 3.5 adds for Quake mapping ? 
>correction< 
NOT to look silly, I meant ... 
 
God, what an atrocity. I grabbed a version of Hammer 3.5 that basically works but I can either:

(A) Have proper texture view and no selection abilities or...

(B) be able to select in the 3D view but the textures are drawing all skewed and such on the faces or...

(C) be able to select in the 3D view with proper texture application but it's horrifically slow

Fuck it, let's see what the BSP editor is like. 
It's 
A 3d Driver / GPU issue - you're on ATI I guess.

You need to turn off Filter textures in the 3d View options and paste a .dll into the worldcraft folder.

http://rapidshare.com/files/138119760/atioglxx.dll

Basically if the dll exists then it stops WC from trying to use the hardware and retards it back a few generations. Which works.

Or you can just buy Nvidia :P 
I Mean 
It forces software rendering - visually it looks the same as hardware acceleration, can't say I've noticed it being slower either. 
 
ijed

Thanks but I tried that. That's what makes it abysmally slow. I'll probably try to set up my other laptop soon (an nvidia machine). The BSP editor seems kinda cool though. Maybe I'll try this for awhile. But, of course, the texture tools are pretty bad. 
WC 
Is a pain in the arse to set up - the real reason to use it is the very good texture handling and visually simple frontend.

Vista also hates it with a passion. 
 
Ahh, being on Vista might be part of the problem them too.

No worries, BSP actually seems to be pretty good now that I've meticulously set up the preferences the way I want them. I don't think it has rotational texture locking which is the one thing I really wanted Worldcraft for. I can get by without it though... 
Willem 
Now you know why you should have written ToeTag crossplatform in the beginning. 
 
Spirit

So much work. :)


I forgot my main complaint with BSP - the 3D camera controls. Horrible. So horrible.

But Worldcraft isn't much better, so, no loss there. 
Did You Try 
different drivers? 
 
I can't be bothered, to be honest. I'm done with installing different versions of drivers to make things work. :) Thanks for the suggestion though. 
CCC 10.2 
I've been all over that s@#*

http://www.amd.com/us/Pages/AMDHomePage.aspx

The newest ati drivers are actually pretty neat. Massive performance increases and everything! Got to be worth a try....

See it occurred to me - the hardware accelleration mode of Hammer likely uses the hardware within your computer.

And seeing as you have told me yourself that you never use your computer for gaming then it would make sense that your drivers aren't up to date. I mean they release new drivers every couple of minutes nowadays. And they release these "updates" to operating systems also.

Maybe thats why I never have any real problems with these things - I recognise the fact that I have to take it upon myself to make sure that I am using the correct tools for the job. I cannot entrust this task to Dell or Hewlett-Packard, they frankly suck. Taking value from the end-user product at every possible turn.

So seriously, if you are serious about mapping with an editor which works well and has all of that magical texture locking stuff which makes it about as easy as Lego bricks, then atleast try installing the latest drivers for your GPU. If that doesnt work then fine, stick to the manual and time consuming method, I'm sure its no big deal.

But its got to be worth a try hasnt it?

If you have some kind of horrible OEM GPU in your box then I'm sorry, I cant offer any advice other than dont buy hardware from these big firms who dont give a c@#p about their customers (HP grrrrr.....) 
 
Look, I appreciate the help but understand that I've been tinkering with PCs for over 20 years now. I understand all about getting the latest drivers and all that jazz. I got it. I just can't be bothered at the moment.

I'll maybe take another shot at it later this week but I've already lost several hours to getting Hammer working and, frankly, I'd rather be working on my brushes. 
Hmm 
Any ideas?

GTK 1.4

(seriously) 
 
Last time I tried it, GTK was almost as large of a farce as this Worldcraft adventure has been. Does it have a simple installer and does it "just work"? 
You're Being Shady 
about your platform, whilst yelling "farce" and stuff, man. You ask for help then you tell me you "might" try again later.

I dont understand. I defend the editor because I have been using it ever since I upgraded from WC 1.6.

What features does Hammer have that Worldcraft 3.3 doesnt anyway? AFAIK they are extremely similar, the interface and button icons and everything are identical. But the Quakeadapter was meant for WC 3.3, but you used Hammer. Why?

Also, for future reference (for me) please tell me what platform you are using? Im only asking because in the future someone will complain that they have the same problem, and if you find a solution ever then I might be able to help them, or atleast be able to say that this happens with GPU x or OS y, and that using driver z helped, or whatever.

Do ya get me?

I understand that it sucks when stuff doesnt work out of the box so to speak (took me ages to get Bioshock DX10 to run on my Windows 7 rig, and yeah - I was frustrated, tired, had a million other things to be thinking of.

But anyway, if you get a minute, or ever decide to attempt mapping with this software ever again like could you let me know your GPU, OS, driver version and things please :) 
Yes 
Absolute noob on compilers, but the one time I tried to instal GTK radiant I got lost in different versions my computer didn't like.
Win98 user - Dos fan.

GTK 1.4 worked right away. 
 
Ricky

Again, thanks, but I'm going to try BSP for a bit and see how it goes. It works. That's all I ask from this stuff. :)

MadFox

I might try Radiant again but I remember a similar clusterfuck with it. Different versions, different feature sets, stuff to install, ... blech! 
Willem 
What is the problem with the 3D camera controls on BspEditor? 
 
They aren't UnrealEd's controls, basically. :)

I just have to get used to them I guess. Most Quake editors have clunky 3D camera controls. Any time you require me to use the keyboard to navigate, it's kind of a fail. 
Willem 
Not sure which version you are using (I use 96b because they dropped support for BspBuild after that) but mouse scroll wheel for movement, and Alt+mouse for 360 looking work fine. I use Shift+ Left Mouse for texture alignment, CTRL + Left Mouse for texture sizing on the fly; and the mouse controls are fully configurable anyway. 
 
ALT, huh? Will try that (right now it's my middle mouse button). I JUST picked it up last night so I'm definitely open to learning whatever I can about it. 
Oh Yes... 
...and I use CTRL/Alt Left Mouse for texture rotation; especially good for aligning wood textures on spiral staircases. 
Ricky ! 
I'm still having problems converting my wads into hlwads with the qconverter stuff. I gave up on trying to figure that out, but I'm tired of the vanilla textures lately...

Ricky, I remember a long time ago you offered to give me a few more .hlwads if I needed them.

could you send me the Half life and DOOM hlwads!? 
An Important Note For Nvidia And Worldcraft 1.6 Users 
Since we happen to be on the subject of mapping editors, I feel I need to share this bit of info in case someone else encounters it. I probably am the last person using Worldcraft 1.6, but irregardless.

If you are using an Nvidia graphics card with the latest drivers, and are on Windows Vista or 7, you will experience a garbled 3d view in WC 1.6 that seemingly can't be fixed. This is because it's due to an Nvidia driver fault, and not because of Vista or Windows 7.

Worldcraft 1.6 uses DirectX, NOT OpenGL. WC uses the nvd3dum.dll which is Nvidia's Vista compatible D3D driver. This is the driver that causes the garbled screen problem, at least the current version of it does now. Any version higher than 182.50 of this driver causes the garbled screen.

So in order to fix it, you must copy the nvd3dum.dll from an older set of Nvidia drivers (182.50 or below) and place it in Worldcraft's main folder. This will remedy the 3D view problem.

I will gladly provide the old nvd3dum.dll driver that fixes the garbled screen problem, but again I'm not sure if anyone else out there uses WC 1.6 anymore. Still, I felt it was necessary to share in case someone does. 
Drew 
I'll see what I got ready.

The HalfLife one needs to be tinkered I think because its too big/has textures which are too big.

But I got the doom ones :) 
 
but again I'm not sure if anyone else out there uses WC 1.6 anymore

i thought my post above kinda suggested i did :)

i have a nvidia card too, but am only on XP. useful to know if i ever end up getting windows 7 though.

just to clarify, do you mean the normal 3d view or hardware accelerated mode? the latter has never really worked properly for me (can never seem to select the right brush/face/item) so always stick with the standard 
Rad 
thanks dude, I really appreciate it if you can, but no worries if it won't work out. 
Rj 
just to clarify, do you mean the normal 3d view or hardware accelerated mode?

That's a good question. Yes, it only affects the normal software rendered 3D view. It doesn't garble the 3D view when using hardware accelerated mode, but you can't use that mode either because you can't select anything in the 3D view, as you said.

But since you use XP, you won't have the 3D view problem regardless. :) 
We Want 
Open Source Worldcraft - because Valve can't be trusted to make it work. 
 
I'm using WC 1.6 on Windows 7 with hardware acceleration enabled and it works. My computer is an Intel Core2Duo and nVidia 8800GTS.

This is not the original WC I bought, but a version I downloaded from somewhere (my original WC wouldn't run on Windows 7, I found this one while searching for a fix). The .exe file does appear to be the same though. This version came with a Direct3D dll in the folder that apparently used to come with XP but is no longer supplied with 7.

The hardware acceleration is not perfect though. When selecting in the 3D view it will often select brushes off in the distance somewhere instead of the one you actually clicked on. Re-orienting the view slightly will usually fix this. 
 
BSP is pretty nice now that I've spent a few hours with it. I really like having multiple window set ups at my finger tips - I've set one up for editing, one for texturing, etc. Slick.

The one thing I don't like is that I don't see a way to hide/show brushes/entities without using groups. That will slow me down once a level gets to be a reasonable size. 
Another Little Problem ... 
I made a floor that disappears with a trigger_counter>killtarget>floor.
It works fine, but the bodies and items keep hanging in mid air.

Oh, and the floor was a func_wall, I don't know if that's relevant.

Any suggestions ? 
 
That's the standard behavior when killtargeting funcs. If possible, turn it into a door that moves down quickly (and quietly), with a lip value that makes it move a few units inside the lower floor. 
Thanks 
Why can't it ever be easy ? ;) 
Almost Funny ... 
I had to make the door move to the side, I can't make it go down. It works fine, only now all the bodies are pressed up to the wall where the door was last.

I don't think I can win this one ... 
Well 
like Negke says, the corpses will follow wherever the door goes.

I'm guessing it can't go down because you've got stuff there?

If there's items then just move them up a floor, if it's monster you can try spawning them in after the floor falls away. 
 
Or prevent the monsters from walking onto the door, e.g. by placing 'soft' monsterjump triggers around it. 
 
So IS there a way to hide/show individual brushes/entities in BSP without using a temp group? There has to be, right? 
OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE ROOM! 
 
Thanks Again 
Thanks again, some good suggestions.
But I don't know, maybe I'm bitching too much.
It looks a little bit silly, but it doesn't interfere with gameplay so, I don't know, maybe I'll just keep it like it is now.


Yes, there is stuff underneath, I could try the spawning thing.
The monsters need to be on the door too, it's sort of a battle ground with several layers. 
 
"OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE ROOM!"

Haha, that would be cool !
I don't know if the old engine could take that much travel at one time though !
Have you ever done something like that ?
If so, please tell me where. 
Sort Of 
In a Q2 Lazarus map. In it you can make a mirror plane, but the mirror will only reflect entities (monsters etc) not brushwork. So behind / inside the mirror you have to make a mirror image of your level to create the illusion.

Copying an idea from one of the test maps I made it so the player could break the mirror, at which point the fake world (func_wall) was deleted and the real room behind filled with enemies.

I tried a The Cube type thing once as well.

Neither got further than failed mod / test map.

I think Negke had a speedmap with rising water? 
--> 
And moved the world, because id1 water can't move. 
Not? 
OR MOVE THE WORLD AROUND THE PLAYER!

instead of teleporters..,
player not fixed, we can't do that yet. 
Willem 
You can hide all entites - it's the icon below the Grid menu in the standard set up 'ent' with a line through it.

Next to that is the hide world button.

But, use Groups they will speed up your workflow once you get used to it.
For instance, here is a list of things that I would put in a Group:-

terrain lumps
lights
monsters
lava where there is a lot of different chunks of it
major building elements such as above ground/below ground; or dungeon/library

In fact I Group anything that I want to work on until it is finished and then move onto the next area and switch off the finished area.

I think the key to using Groups is that you can set them to hide what would otherwise be distracting brushwork in dense areas of the map.

Imagine working on this without Groups:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7963/fmbnearlydone.jpg

Compared to:
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1206/fmbsameviewgroup.jpg

Entities off and just the Group I am working on.

Groups, they're brilliant! 
 
Oh, I'm on board with the group train, believe me. That was an immediate win for me.

I was just hoping for a quick, "I want to work on these 3 brushes for a second". In ToeTag I had a thing where I could select them and with a keypress hide everything else.

It's also nice to be able to say, "This brush is right in the way of what I want to see." There's no way of clicking it and just hiding it quickly from what I can tell.

I guess I'll have to get ninja with the groups and deal with it. :) 
Something Else About WC 
I have to use this utility:

http://www.quaddicted.com/tools/setgamma11.zip

With a number higher than 1 to not go blind with the 3d window. 
 
That's something I don't like in BSP. It has the worst texture browser I've ever used. It's worse than Worldcraft's and that's saying something. :) 
Texture Browser 
What kind of things would you do to the browser to improve it? 
 
At the very least, display the textures in some sort of size relative way. Let a 128x128 wall be 4 times larger than a 32x32 floor piece. I really dislike how they all get crammed into the same size box.

That alone would make it more useful for me. 
 
QuArK refreshes the textures each time you enter the texture browser. So if you have a big wad you will have to wait many seconds and then scroll down to your texture. Idiotic. 
 
OK, haha, so it COULD be worse... 
 
Mike

BSP questions.

1) Is there a way to manipulate verts in the 3D view? Like, drag them?

2) Barring that, is there a way to select a specific vertex and then go drag it in the 2D viewports? It's tough to do terrain with triangular brushes sometimes with the way I perceive this editor working. 
Is In WC 
sorry

you can select in 3D and then move in 2D. Very useful.

Heh - I never hide anything when mapping. Probably slows me down a lot. I just dont like the idea of having to be cautious about building into an area which already has brushes there because you couldnt see them.

You should see the 2D views from the side of my current map when zoomed out. White lines, black background, just like a big white blob.
I have to select things just to see where they are :O because when selected they show as red!

Im pretty sure that if I was working with a team of people that they would complain about it! 
You Don't Use Visgroups Ricky? 
 
They're Very Useful 
Not so much for slowing your pc down, but more for selectively getting stuff out of the way.

My maps tend to have visgroups set up like this:

liquids
doors
buttons
details

With adding to the list as needed - the show entities option taking care of the rest.

Makes it alot simpler to build recesses for moving stuff, set up triggers and their areas, block stuff out, etc.

Hiding whole areas I don't bother with so much any more. 
 
that a shity thing in Quark :| but i love the editor... :)

I usualy dont use big wads...

visgroups? how? never try!!! 
AFAIK WC Only Visgroups 
Trinca, log in like normal people ;) 
Willem 
Texture settings are in the prefs menu: in standard set up it is the tool bar icon, top row, 5th one in from the right (pref). Your settings are in there. If you look at my screenshots from earlier you will see I have textures just as you suggest.

Axedskullglow is 128 x 128 and azwall3_1 is 64 x64 
Just... 
...select Textures from the drop down menu 
 
Really? Hell yes! That will be great, thanks for the info!

But no love on 3D vertex manipulation? 
Vertex Dragging In 3D 
I haven't seen that in 3D (not that I have looked) but I tend to select the face in 3D and then manipulate in 2D. The 3D window updates in real-time anyway.

I have a scroll wheel mouse so I select face in 3D, move the mouse over whichever 2D window is relevant, scroll to zoom in or out, right click and drag to move the view around, manipulate brush using this method.

I have been playing with terrain on and off for ages and I have no problems. 
A Bit More 
Selecting a brush in 2D is just SHIFT and left click on the brush's centre x.

You can also change the selected face of a selected brush by left clicking close the the outside edge of the new face. 
 
OK, just checking. I had 3D manipulation of stuff in ToeTag and it was hella useful. I'll just have to get used to this method for now then.

Thanks for all your help, BTW. It great to have someone to fill in the holes that I can't fill with the help docs. 
Trinca 
Hammer visgroups are groups in QuArK... as far as I know ;) 
 
thanks JPL 
Documentation Wanted ... 
I was thinking of including some monsters from the mission pack(s).
Is there any documentation showing me what files I need to copy and how to write them into the WC fgd ?
I probably need to make a new pak then too, do I ? 
If Anybody Is Up For It ... 
There is something I can't do at all and that is making new monster models. I don't want to learn it either, I think others can do a better job anyway. But I've got this idea of creating a really tall (bigger than the Shambler) version of an Ogre, carrying a large hammer or axe, that is really fast and crushes a player with one good blow. It would be cool to make him act hostile toward any non-Ogres. Not an end boss or anything, just an occasional annoyance. Dodging, shooting and staying alive would be the way past him.

If you like the idea, I would love to use your skills ... 
 
Model: open ogre.mdl in QME. Scale it up. Delete the grenade launcher (+shoot animation) and the chainsaw. Paste an upscaled player axe minus the hand and move the vertices of the blades until they resemble a hammer (or simply use the Mjolnir mdl). Align the hammer to the smash animation.

QC: no idea.

I'm not going to do it. :) 
I'm Up But Horns Blow My Shields,,, 
I converted some monsters from DOE and SOA.
It's not such a difficult thing only qc is hard to extract as it worms all around.
I once tried the Gremlin for its weapon thievery.

I'm working on the Old Ogre so I could make something like that. 
Ron 
where's your ID or email? 
Some Questions 
Any help regarding any of these would be greatly apprecciated!

Textures - I am still unable to convert my Wads to HLwads. Does anyone know if there has been an updated version of Bakers wad conversion tool?
If not, what is the best way to go about converting the textures manually?

Curves - I have read and come to terms with CZG's 2 point curve technique. I was wondering if anyone could explain a nice clean way to extrapolate that into more detailed curves, using the arch tool or otherwise.
I usually find it impossible to keep my arches on grid/ at the right angles with the arch creation tool in WC 3.3.

Lights - How do I set spotlights up? Can detailed info be found on the Bengt page regarding that?

Thanks! 
 
OK, well Im nt going to carry on about the texture conversion, but the other points:

Smooth Arches - I tend to do this by eye, looking from the side.

Lights - so make a spotlight ad the key "mangle" with the value "0 -90 0".

The first 0 can be changed of you want the light to point in a funny angle (it rotates the angle of projection through the x axis), the second number "-90" says to point directly at the floor. This could be -45 for example, if you wanted it to point down at 45 degrees. And the final number "0" is irrelevant, it is just a marker. 
Drew 
Are you on Vista?

Also, don't use any auto-creation tools in wc3.3 - they're all crap.

This is how I make 24 sided stuff -

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/24sided.jpg

Which should serve for high detail curves.

If you go back in mapping help history a couple of pages you'll find a discussion on twists / spirals. 
AutoCreation 
I include the subtract / boolean / carve on the list of bad stuff.

It's even better to make your own circles using slice, instead of having to auto-make one, rotate it, then snap it to grid with vertex manipulation. 
Vista? 
... yeah.

Ricky - thanks for that explanation - seems simple enough!

Ijed - I've only used the arch tool once - in sm149 (hence the title "Brushwork of The Damned") and I never plan to use it again!

The aspect that confuses me is making a pathway or maybe a hollow tube that encircles that 24 sided cylinder. tightly. without being leaky or buggy or otherwise shitty.

I understand how to me to skew and clip a path like that around a 12 sided cylinder, but I'm at a loss regarding how to do that around a 24 sided cylinder.

Hope that makes some sense. If not oh well, it's late and my eyes are bleeding. 
Texture Conversion 
Right click on the tool and run as administrator - I think that's how it works. Or turn of UAC.

The jpg I sent shows you how to wrap stuff around a 24 sider though - if you try making pie slices out from the centre (same as for a 12 sided) you'll see it stays on grid.

Does take a bit more trial and error though. 
Huh 
I'll mess around with it.

It's one of those things - I want to learn how to do it "properly" but it's frustrating tinkering around when I could be making a fun interesting map that just so happens to have crappier brushwork.

it's a fine line, especially considering this is just a hobby. I only want to map for fun.

thanks again for your help guys, I appreciate you taking time to answer my stupid questions! 
24 Sided Arch 
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2403/24sidedarch.jpg

How close is this to what ijed sent you, Drew? Can provide map file if you want.

I did it like this (in gtkradiant 1.4): Start with 24 sided cylinder, 256*256, using standard ratios. On an 8-unit grid, the ratios are: 2:0, 4:1, 4:2, 3:3, 2:4, 1:4, 0:2.

Then copy it and scale it up 1.5x, and again 2.0x, radiant can do this scaling easily. Then draw imaginary lines from the center to the edges, the points should match up (pie slices as ijed says).

Now... wrapping a hollow cylinder around a cylinder... is possible, but a fucking headache, and it's actually somewhat editor dependent as to what's possible or not. Last time I looked at the problem, it was simply not possible in Radiant to wrap a 12 sided hollow pipe around a 12 sided cylinder, because of, well I'm not sure exactly, but it has to do with how radiant won't let you make invalid concave brushes like worldcraft will. That old "CZG curve tutorial" is somewhat useless in radiant because they handle skewing and group edge dragging completely differently.

However it is entirely possible to wrap a simpler, 8-sided cylinder around a 12 sided one. It should be possible to do the same around a 24-sided cylinder, though I'm not sure if I've ever tried. If you do, make the pieces really big so it fits on grid. In the above screenshot, the arch goes down to 2 and 4 unit grid already. 
Almost The Same 
But mine's on a bigger grid - the principle's there but like you say, so're the different editor techniques.

Since the finalised shapes from wrapping around are valid have you tried figuring out a Radiant method from a .map made in another editor? 
Curves In Radiant 
I remember that I used the clipping tool a lot for wrapping curves. You can use it to cut the wall brushes of a pipe and other shapes very easily simply by drawing them from the center out to a point that is on the grid. The end points must however be chosen so that adjacent clipping lines all have the same angles (e.g. 360 / 24). I think I did that by creating a very large cylinder with for example 24 sides whose vertices were aligned on the grid.

Dunno if this makes sense, but I do remember that making curves was very easy this way. Also, you can extend this method to 3D using clipping planes, but it's obviously more work. 
Clarification 
The clipping lines for any curve brushes extend from the center of the curve to the vertices of the "guide" cylinder.

Also, remember that brush vertices don't need to be aligned on the grid since the brush faces are not defined by the vertices, but by three coplanar points. Radiant handles this very well, as opposed to other editors (QERadiant that is). 
Also 
Working with the brushes that make up the curve is very easy in Radiant due to its face dragging feature. 
Grahf 
I see you are using Radiant in Mac OS X there. How did you set it up? I tried it several times, but it never worked for me. Can you give me some hints? Which version is that? 
 
thanks grahf - I'd appreciate it if you'd send the editor - i'll try it out! 
Another Question 
probably a dumb one, but probably easy to answer.

fade attenuation value? 
Wee, Fun Stuff! This Is Gonna Be Long 
Sleepwalker: the short answer:
http://redsaurus.net/gtkradiant/ <-forum

http://www.redsaurus.net/macradiant/GtkRadiant_1.4_1.5_Macintosh.dmg <- should be universal binary installer

The long answer is, the short answer probably doesnt't help much at all. Half that forum is outdated information, the other half is info about useless games like Jedi Academy. The installer and some useful stuff is on there somewhere, though. I'll start from the very beginning because I don't know how far you got.


I am on PowerPC/Tiger and I suspect you are on Intel/Leopard, which is a minor hurdle but not insurmountable. I did have it installed on 10.5 for a while, but this old laptop just didn't get along with Leopard too well.

Install X11 first, nothing will run otherwise. In Tiger this came on the install discs, on Leopard get the latest from http://xquartz.macosforge.org/

OK, inside the DMG I linked to, you find GTKRadiants 1.4 and 1.5, and a Packs installer. There is some documentation in there, but it's not incredibly helpful. Run the Packs Installer; there is no Q1 pack, but it needs to find at least one game to install some files that Radiant needs, so point it at a Q3 installation. Put the Radiants whereever you want on your HD, it will just change the file paths we'll be editing later. I personally hate gtkr 1.5 with a passion, so everything that follows will be for 1.4.

Load that bad boy up and see if it runs. Oops, it almost certainly doesn't. You'll need this: http://www.redsaurus.net/macradiant/MacRadiant14intel.dmg

For more info on getting that to run, I'll refer you to:
http://tremmapping.pbworks.com/GtkRadiant1_4-Intel_MAC
http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_With_MacRadiant
http://alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=37611

I don't have an Intel Mac (yet), so I hope that helps enough to at least get the thing to open. The NetRadiant fork may be easier to get up and running, but it's 1.5 based, so bleh.

Quake 1 support section! Once it at least runs, close it again, and do View Package Contents -> Resources -> sw -> radiant14. Hey look, it's the actual Radiant folder, buried in the app package. From here on, the process parallels what Tigger-On describes here, configuring Radiant for Quake: http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

find the games folder, copy q3.game and name it q1.game, change some stuff. Mine looks like:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" standalone="yes"?>
<game
name="Quake 1 / Nehahra"
gametools= "/Applications / Games / Quake1 / pathofthesoul / MacRadiant14.app / Contents / Resources / sw / radiant14 / q1"
basegame="id1"
enginepath= "/Applications / Games / Quake1"
engine="Fitzquake.app"
prefix=".q1"
default_scale="1"
/>

Adjust accordingly. I added those weird spaces just now so the forum doesnt freak out, but you get the idea. Notice I have "Quake1" not "Quake 1" though, I might have done this because because Radiant didn't like seeing any spaces in its file path.

Now you can put stuff into id1/textures, id1/scripts, id1/maps, etc., just like on PC, yay. I later tried to get clever with project files and point it to a mod directory parallel to id1, which kinda works.

Ah, one last thing. every time you try to open or save a map, the file dialog probably isn't pointing to where you want it, and the GTK file dialog box is pretty shit. In your home folder, there is a hidden folder with the name given in the "prefix" line of the .game file, usually this is ".q3a" but I changed it to ".q1". Inside should be a folder with the name of the basegame directory, which probably will be "id1." Inside that folder, make unix symlinks to your actual working maps and scripts folders. The documentation file in the .dmg we downloaded has a simple method of finding the path, and a contextual menu plugin to make the symlinking easier.

It's worth noting, Sleepwalkr, that I'd have given up at this years ago if it weren't for your java mapconverter - works like a charm in OSX! So thanks for that. 
Drew 
It's just 1kb, zipped.

http://www.mediafire.com/?qjnimzdjnjl 
If Sleepwalker Can Quadruple Post, I Can Too 
Everything Sleepwalker said about wrapping hollow pipes around cylinders is correct. That is exactly how I did it, it's just been a while. 
Grahf 
Awesome, thank you very much for your detailed instructions. I'll surely try this out tonight, hopefully I can get it running finally. Cool to see my old mapconverter is still being used! 
Quake.pal 
please?

found this whilst i was looking for a quake.pal palette file for Paint Shop Pro, which was interesting:

http://www.studio-erebus.com/studio/tutorials/palettes.html

Scroll down for some quakey stuff....

Anyway could anyone really help me out and point me in the direction for a qauke.pal file, because i cant find a tool to convert palette.lmp to .pal format, or whatever it is im supposed to do here.....

Starbuck, heeeellllllpppppp!!!!!
Metl....? 
Do This 
1. open a quake texture in photoshop
2. export the palette
3. profit
4. ???

To get a quake paletted texture, open a wad in texmex or whatever, and export it in an 8bit format (gif or pcx should work). The texture has the whole palette embedded in it. 
On Wrapping Curves Around Other Curves 
Grahf:

I don't know if this is true or not, but I I'm pretty sure I remember someone saying that there's a setting in GTKRadiant where you can toggle it to behave like Worldcraft so you can make concave brushes and save a little time on doing curves around curves that way.

Anyone confirm this? 
 
What does it do with the concave brushes? Carve them up at MAP export time? That sounds ... dangerous. 
Hang On 
there are no concave brushes in WC. If one is made then it's invalid - you can still vertex edit it back into validity though, but for curving stuff I only use slice. Sometimes vertex edit if I screw it up, but that's only to get it back on grid / properly aligned. 
Quake.pal 
OK, well thanks for the solution Grahf, but unfortunately I left my copy of Photoshop on the bus last week and.....

So no-one here can hook me up with a .pal file with the Quake palette!?!?

Man how this forum has changes :(

(sulk) 
 
GIMP I think has all or most of the funcionality that Photoshop has and is free. It probably has a palette export option (but I rarely use my copy of GIMP so I don't know for sure.) 
 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/misc/quakepal.zip

Found this in my wally folder. GIMP can export palettes, but they're not in the same format as POS it seems.

Anyway. Is this the right thing? 
Dude You Are A Lifesaver :) 
I think its the right thing, I will try it when I get home! :) 
Sorry, Missed That 
There's one in RMQ's gfx folder. 
There Also Is One On My Harddisk... 
Vertex Editing In Radiant, Palette Map 
Blitz: The option is "vertex editing splits the polygon" or something. It doesn't actually help the problem, instead it just sends you to vertex editing hell, where all your faces are split into two triangles, and you still can't pull the vertices where you want them, because even with that option enabled it won't let you make an invalid brush.

The way to do the "pipe around a pipe" thing really is as sleepwalkr said, with clipping and face dragging. Maybe I should make a little visual tutorial.

Ricky: Have patience. Also, I found something quake palette related, nice little index of which color is which colormap number.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1070/quakepalette.png 
 
Radiant vertex editing should be avoided if at all possible. 
Well 
Vertex editing should be avoided period. All you need is clipping and face dragging to shape brushes. It avoids a lot of problems and lets you create shapes that are very hard to get right with vertex editing if you get a little creative. 
Ricky 
Ain't you got Wally installed?
There's a q1.pal in it. 
Heh` 
Guess I was wrong.

This is still the forum I thought it was. Im sorry I ever doubted.....

Actually thanks a lot guys, I have no excuses now ;) 
You Drama Queen! 
 
Basic Question.... 
.. I never experimented monster jump: is there any map example "for the same" (<- Indy style wording) :P
Or couldn't somebody explain me how it works ? 
 
i think that's how the ogres jump down and attack you in....errr...that map...uhh... when the doors shut and the ogres are above you, maybe in episode 3? 
 
.. I never experimented monster jump: is there any map example "for the same" (<- Indy style wording) :P
Or couldn't somebody explain me how it works ?


e3m7 the haunted halls, 
Just Like Quoth's Trigger_drolejump 
trigger_drolejump

angle
speed
height

Used as described above to fling enraged droles in a specified direction. Identical to a trigger_monsterjump, set the "angle" key for the direction the drole will jump, "speed" for the number of units/sec the drole will move horizontally and "height" for the number of units/sec vertically.
 
Thanks 
I'll check it ! 
Db_rock05 
I came across an old backup cd with an unfinished map from 2005 on it but I don't have all of the texture wads to with.

Does anyone know what wad has the texture db_rock05?

it must be an outside dirt / rock type texture as the brushes are in an outside area. 
Maybe... 
... it is from bulowad (or bulowad2) texture set

Check it out there http://www.quaddicted.com/wads/ 
Thanks 
Thanks JPL!

bulowad2 is the one. 
Can Anyone Think Of 
different versions of the Quake 2 textures?

either in maps or wads or zips or whatever?

Im particularly interested in any quake1 maps which use ported Quake 2 textures. I have the full intention of finding some textures which are better than the ported Quake 2 textures in quaddicted/wads.

I can do my own conversions but my attempts at converting the stock quake 2 textures or the standard hires replacements has had funky coloured results........ 
 
metl's oblivion? 
Waterfall Sound? 
is there a waterfall sound in the quoth pack?
what is it called if so? 
Necros 
That's what I told him. Oblivion is nice. 
Like Endless Rain Into A Paper Cup... 
There is a waterfall sound, the path to it is

sounds/necros/water6.wav 
Correction 
Sound is of course singular in the quake directory structure, so I meant to put:

sound/necros/water6.wav

Then again, when you add paths to call sounds you have to omit that directory name anyway. 
Worldcraft 3.3 Question 
Every time I go to the Check for Problems tool I get a list of errors that are no real errors, like this :

"The entity contains keyvalues that are not used in its class. You can fix this error with the Fix button."

I've not tried using the fix button, I'm not sure if the entities will be deleted if I do.

Anyone know how I can get rid of this problem ?
It's quite annoying because the Check for problems tool is quite useful for pointing out mistakes with vector manipulation. 
Wellllll 
This comes from the keys which are specified for each class in the FGD file. Its not a "real" problem, and clicking on fix wont remove the entity. Infact clicking on fix wont do anything really!!!

All of the "real" problems are usually at the bottom of the list. I always start at the bottom of that list and work up. You get any illegal brush errors there, or bad textures etc.

One thing which you get in WC is brush models with no volume (no brushes attached) which are often situated at position 0,0,0. You can delete these by clocking on goto error, closing the "find problems" dialogue and pressing delete ;) 
Something Cool For WC3.3 Users: 
http://games.softpedia.com/get/Tools/Valve-Hammer-Editor.shtml

This link is to a hammer.exe file which you can put in your WC DIR and then just run from there.

Then you can see how similar Hammer 3.5 is to WC 3.3! (its sooo similar i only noticed one real difference - you can load pointfiles and see them in the 3D window. in 3.3 they would only show up in the 2D views). 
Ron: 
Anyone know how I can get rid of this problem ?

just open the fgd file, find the relevant entity (or baseclass) and add any used keys that aren't there.. voila, errors be gone! 
 
Thanks a lot !
I'll have a look at .5, I take it the Quake adapter will work for that version too ? 
Yeah 
Well that's what I mean. I ran into this file whilst looking for a hammer installer. All I did was drop the only file in the archive (600kb) which was hammer.exe into the Worldcraft directory and clicked on the exe. I had already been using the Quakeadapter WC3.3 setup and this seems to use the same configs and everything.

Its not an installer, its a program.exe file :) 
Hm 
Will take a look at that.

Don't use the fix button for that error message - what it does is delete all the keys it thinks are broken - so it removes all your entity configurations.

Need to get the RMQ fgd to stop reporting that crap.

In fact the only time you want to use Fix or Fix All is when you get a Texture Axis perpendicular to Face. The rest of the time it's best to just use the problems thing to find it, then fix the thing yourself. Like you've been doing from the sounds of it.

The perpendicular texture thing causes a corrupt bsp - and the chances are you won't even notice it since it doesn't affect all OS' / setups. Its caused when manipulating objects with vertex editing / slice. 
Preach 
hahaha thanks! 
Forgotten 
corps_removal? 
 
add to def.qc:

void () CorpseThink =
{
self.think = SUB_Remove;
self.nextthink = time + 30 + random() * 30;
};

All monsters in last death animation (ie example shambler):

void() sham_death11 =[ $death11, CorpseThink ] {};
 
Gtkradiant 
Thanks to Ricky who owes me 90 bucks Quest doesn't work on Win7 64bit and the Virual XP Mode doesn't help either, because of some fullscreen issue.

Gtkradiant 1.5 then (couldn't get the newer branches to run, there's no fool-proof installer/pack). What's really bothering me, though, is that one is so restricted to the entity definitions. You can't use custom entities without adding them to the def file first. So there's some stuff I can't do and don't know how to change it. For example, triggers are defined as brush-based and it's impossible to use them as point ents (and vice versa, e.g. an info_notnull with a brush) - doing so, Gtkradiant will disregard their position/dimensions in the display windows and move them all to the map origin.
What can I do about it? Is there an option to make the editor less anal about such things? 
New PC Negke? 
Try another editor maybe. There's bsp editor and maybe soon thanks to willem / ericw Toetag windows edition.

QuArK as well - although I hate the interface.

I think I remember you saying you hated the one from WC.

It's a pain upgrading OS. None of the Quake stuff just works any more. 
Negke 
I told you I was dual booting XP and Windows 7, and the way I see it is you havent lost anything, only the ability to run a REALLY old piece of software.

Try using Hammer.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! 
Pointing Fingers 
Worldcraft/hammer is only slightly more flexable about interchanging point entities for brush entities. If you remove the definition of an entity from the fgd file, then you can place it as either, which is helpful for func_illusionary. It does mean that you lose all the smart edit functions though, so for anything more complicated than func_illusionary it gets annoying.

The hack we incorportated into quoth was to create a series of wrapper functions like:

void() func_wall_point =
{
self.classname = "func_wall";
func_wall();
}

You can then define a "point" version of the entity in the def file.

I suppose you could also do this with a preprocessor of your map file added to the compile process. It could just do a find and replace in the .map file of "funcpoint" for "func". Assuming you never use the phrase in text fields or textures. Replacing

"classname" "funcpoint

with

"classname" "func

might be safer... 
 
ijed: Quark? lol

Ricky: So do I. But I told I would come back and complain no matter what. I actually might use a hammer on this computer sooner or later (and then come back to you to complain).

Preach: Yeah, I guess editing the def file and dublicate the entities in question is the only way. I don't need the smart edit functions except for the difficulty spawnflags. 
 
Just run Quest in Linux in Virtualbox? 
Wc 
Smart Edit are the only functions you keep if there's no entry in the .fgd - then you can just add and remove keys by typing them in.

You have to keep copy pasting entities though to not fill them out by hand. Which gets very annoying, as does the 'using invalid keys' report.

On the other hand a fgd is easy to write and amend and lets you set your own default values for stuff like lights.

We use a similar wrapper list for backwards and cross compatibility. I think doing Find/Replace on each compile would get irritating quickly. 
 
negke

Quark is POWER!!!

Stop using lames editors!

Is about time u get pro... and Quark is easy and fast! 
Negke 
Interesting point about Radiant's inflexibility wrt point/brush entities.

Hadn't noticed actually, because I prefer to code in QC instead of in the map editor :-P 
Negke 
Is using GTKRadiant 1.4 an option for you? I don't recall it being so restrictive about entities. 
In Defense Of Find/replace 
I was assuming that you would make the find/replace a part of your batch file you use to compile maps, so once you had set it up you'd never need to do it again. I'm sure this is easy to do with grep, but I don't know the syntax myself. It's possible to do with FOR /F in a windows batch file, but good luck to you if you try. It would be hacker friendly at least, as it doesn't require a custom progs. 
Hm 
That would work fine yeah. 
Grahf 
There was something about 1.4 I didn't like and which felt better in 1.5. Couldn't find a Q1 version of 1.4 so I haven't tested it again. 
1.4 Vs 1.5 
Does 1.5 still use the .def/.qc file format for entity lists? Because in 1.4, and all other Radiants going way back in time, it will parse the /* QUAKED */ entity notes straight out of a qc file. The format is dead simple too. I recall 1.5 and later changing the format to some byzantine XML monstrosity. I think you are actually right about Radiant not wanting to convert something it thinks is a point entity to a brush ent, and vice versa, because what I have in my .def file is two info_notnull entities, like this:

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) (-4 -4 -4) (4 4 4) */

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) ? */

The first is a point ent, you can see it has a bounding box. The second is a brush ent, its size is "?," i.e., whatever you make it. Inside the comment brackets I've dumped some of the cool hacks from the "teaching an old progs.dat new tricks" thread, so I can refer to them easily.

Radiant 1.5 changed the interface in a lot of subtlety annoying ways to make it more like a 3D modelling prog. If that suits you, cool, but it sure didn't do it for me.

With 1.4 you have to go through a texture and game file converting process to get it working correctly for Q1, which is described here:
http://industri.sourceforge.net/howto.php

Actually you should try Sikkpin's QuakeEd, it's all the goodness of oldschool Radiant, specifically built for Q1:
http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60225&start=133
No gamepacks, reads wads directly. 
 
1.5 can use both, either XML or .def.

It seems to dislike /* ... */ for anything else than entity definitions - I had to change all my comments to

//
//

I'm not going back to Quest though. I map five times faster in Radiant.

You can set it to use .def files in the config file. It comes with a vanilla Quake XML entity file though. 
 
The latest version of 1.5 is not my friend, I do not like it,I want SPoG back working on it to get it back to how it was when 1.5 was 'new.' This latest version has very uncool features that I wish were removed and/or reverted. I am considering switching to Ogier.

/rant 
 
Grahf: Having to go through a texture conversion process every time I want to try a new wad sounds like hell of a hassle. :/
Could you send me your .def file? If 1.5 supports .def files as well, this might be an option. So far, I worked around the restriction issue by simply deleting the four or five conflicting entities from the default def.

gb: It definitely feels like a fast editor. Many current nitpicks are probably just matters of unfamiliarity that disappear once one gets used to the program after a while. I wouldn't even consider the def thing a major issue. However, there are other things I'm not sure of in the long run. I kind of get the feeling the way it works affects the shapes of my brushwork. Creating complex architecure, particularly of the trisoup type, must be a lot more difficult if not impossible?). The 2d hide/group function might be a sluggy, too. I wish there was an additional farclip option.
How do select entities in 2d mode? Through brushes and possbily cycling through all entities on the same plane (like alt+shift+click does for brushes).

Zwiffle: Like what? I assume you're talking about the latest nightly build (which I use) and not the stable version? What I find annoying, for instance, are things like the target/name change when cloning entities.


(I probably wrote the same stuff before..) 
 
How do select entities in 2d mode? Through brushes and possbily cycling through all entities on the same plane (like alt+shift+click does for brushes).

yes, they are selected just like brushes. 
 
Indeed, I see it now. Must have done something wrong yesterday then. 
Texture Values Cleared? 
I hadn't looked on the speedmap I mentioned a while back for a bit now... too busy with school.

I opened it up from my computer just now (not from within WC), and now all the textures values are cleared!

anything that was scaled down, or shifted has gone back to 0!

Any idea what happened there?

I haven't even checked what the entity values are like!

...

okay, they seem fine...

Is there a way to fix this, besides readjusting everything manually?

...it's pretty simple map so if that's what I have to do it won't suck that much. 
How Can This Be? 
Perhaps each of the editors uses a slightly different map format. Better finish the map in WC then.

Also try to get generic and/or Zwiffle to make a speedmap, too. 
Oh Hey 
Just found this: http://kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/tutorials/
Nice tutorial, gb.

Netradiant sounds like something I should give a try - if it's indeed like 1.5 with additional features. E.g. being able to change the keyboard shortcuts. 
Yes 
WC has a unique texture system - that's how it does proper locking and a couple of other tricks. 
Netradiant 
So far it gives me some memory error every single time on load, ctrl+tab doesn't go to the next view like it said, it crashes when loading certain .wad files.

>:( 
 
My main niggle with it is that minimizing it causes all windows (I use detached windows for 2d, textures, camera) to minimize individually, and when returning it from the task bar, they all stay minimized. 
 
Yeah, that's a pain in the ass too, and kind of freaked me out when it happened. 
Whoa There 
> ctrl+tab doesn't go to the next view

that sucks. I'll have to install Netradiant and filter out these differences :-/

You would think they wouldn't change something as important as this. Maybe the key bindings menu will help.

Linux has no "windows inside windows" feature as far as I know - it has draggable borders between the viewports - that sounds terribly like Windows 3.11. Workgroups, right? 
 
Ctrl-Tab works. Sometimes it is not doing it right but that seems to be a focus issue. Going to 3D view and back fixes it for me. 
Anti-fud 
And you can use floating windows just fine if you want. Your window manager controls them! Yes, you get one item in the taskbar per window, just like GIMP did it. With workspaces that is very very handy.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/netradiant-linux.jpg 
Drew - Worldcraft Texutre Loading Problem: 
I think you might have loaded the .map file instead of the .rmf file.

RMF format includes valve 220 texture protocol (supported by TxQbsp), but the .map format wont allow you to load the information back into your editor.
So basically you have to always save your .rmf file, then save your .map file then do a compile. Then when you go back to re-edit the map you need to laod the .rmf file.

If you accidentally loaded a .map file, then did a compile from there without noticing that the textures were mis-aligned then it will have overwritten the .rmf file with the .map file's texture info and you will have lost it.

I would set .map file to default to a text editors format, so they all have a text editor icon. 
Quake1 .def 
there's one bundled with sleepwalkr's mapcon
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/industri/mapcon_java.zip

this one has some tenebrae stuff in it apparently?
http://industri.sourceforge.net/txt/quake.def

It's just a text file. Negke, open it up and find info_notnull, and paste the brush info_notnull entity into there, without deleting the point info_notnull. Put a note inside the /* comment */ to remind yourself which is which, as there will be two entries in the entity list. Like this:

/*QUAKED info_notnull (0 0.5 0) ?

Invisible entity. Used for clever hacks.

*/
 
Ahaha Yeah You're Right! 
what a weiner! I just patched it up anyways, I think there were like 8 textures that needed alignment in the whole map.


thanks ricky, you're awesome! 
Spirit 
Interesting, I don't think I can do that though. I don't even have a taskbar, I use openbox :)

Not FUD, anyway. I'm not sure if you're aware that FUD has a super-negative meaning; I don't think my post deserved that. 
NP :D 
I have made the same mistake more times than I care to mention :S 
Grahf 
Thanks. Doesn't seem to work in 1.5, though. It only recognizes one entry per name.

I guess I'll have to go with Preach's suggestion for now (into_notnull_brush->find/replace). Because as it turned out, deleting the entry altogether works for info_notnull, but makes the program treat triggers like point ents. 
Backpack? 
Hey,

How do you make an ammo backpack in quake/quoth, and how do you set what goes in it...

can you put health in there?

Also

What is a good sound for a large, slowly spinning cog in quoth? I tried the one that goes with dias.wav, but it's not the best.
it's a big cog.

kind of like that one in sm156_necros... 
Hlwad 
I can't seem to convert wads to hlwad, I get this message...

Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\decon.hlwad ... details ...No log exists.

Error creating HLWAD: c:\program files\worldcraft\textures\zerst�rer.hlwad ... details ...No log exists.

I'm on win7 is that makes a difference.

Also is there a way to brighten the 3d view in Wc3.3

Thank you. 
Player Backpack And Ghost Medkit 
"classname" "info_notnull"
"think" "PlaceItem"
"nextthink" ".3"
"touch" "BackpackTouch"
"model" "progs/backpack.mdl"
"modelindex" "##"
// look it up on the edicts list
"ammo_shells" "##"
"ammo_nails" "##"
"ammo_rockets" "##"
"ammo_cells" "##"
// if 0, just leave the field out
"items" "##" // values from defs.qc, e.g. 32=RL
"netname" "abc" // for the 'You got the abc' message if weapons are given

For this to work properly in DP, you may need to add "maxs" "16 16 56".


Obviously, you can't give the player health through a backpack. But you can put an invisible medkit in the same spot so it gets picked up automatically.

"classname" "info_notnull"
"think" "PlaceItem"
"nextthink" ".3"
"touch" "health_touch"
"healtype" "#"
// 0 or 1 for <100, 2 for <250 (MH)
"healamount" "###"
"model" "maps/b_bh25.bsp"
// if precached - or use backpack/player.mdl instead for the bbox
Leaving the modelindex field out will make the item invisible, yet still functional.

Again, "maxs" "32 32 56" for DP and, if you want it not to play the health pickup sound, "noise" "misc/null.wav"
Quoth Compatibility 
Keep in mind though that Quoth 2 handles some of the models differently, which results in different modelindex values. So unless you add a Quoth detection system, a backpack that shows properly in id1 will use a different model in Quoth 2 (and vice versa, even though this isn't really a problem).

Also, the second "maxs" field in the post above should read "16 16 56" of course. 
Maxs 
Gah. Actually "32 32 56" is correct. 
Hrm 
what goes wrong in DP without maxs being set?

used backpacks for ammo in the speedmap i did earlier this week but didn't know about that 
 
I encountered an issue in my coag map where you couldn't pick up the item in DP if it didn't have the maxs field. However, I actually can't remember if it was a backpack or another item. I just tried another map that has a backpack without said field and it worked in DP. So I'm not sure if it was just something related to the DP build I used back then or a mistake on my part. Sorry for the confusion. 
Negke 
Awesome trick !!! 
Lol 
I tried to give the sewrpent a squaddamage backpack. Think I didn't knew it was a serpent.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quaddama.jpg 
Then 
I copied the void()BackPackTouch and DropBackPack function as new in ITEMS.QC
as I couldn't see a skeleton dropping one.
Its own weapon makes more sense.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/backpak.jpg 
Cool Stuff 
 
 
would anyone be interested in like a gui that takes the place of a batch file?

i making one for myself, but if people want it, i'll make it pretty looking and bug test it. 
^^^ 
mm, i guess that's what i get for posting so late at night...
what i meant was a gui that compiles q1 maps. i would allow you to easily toggle stuff like -fast and such and move your files around and such. 
I'd Be Interested 
 
 
cool, maybe in like a couple of days. fyi, it's just visual basic, cause i don't actually know how to program. ^_^; 
Map Building On Linux 
Hi Guys,

I think this has been asked before but atm I can't find the answer...

Are there Quake Map Build tools that can be run on Linux?

Thanks,
jimbo 
 
Editors: Quest, Gtkradiant
Compilers: Bengt Jardrup's tools work fine on Wine. gb ported some of them to Linux once, but I don't have a link at hand. 
As Mentioned 
here's the compiler gui i was talking about...
instructions to use it are on this page:
http://shoresofnis.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/ne_q1spcompilinggui/

most of the stuff should be fairly obvious, but the 'instructions' are lengthy and pretty verbose. ask if anything explodes though. 
Looks Nice 
two things though..

the vis option should be 'level 4', not 'level4', get an error with the latter

'+map whatever' should just be added automatically behind the scenes rather than requiring to be typed in. if you've selected the 'run quake' option you probably aren't going to want to load a different map to the one you're compiling :)

and it needs an icon ;) 
Hrm 
thinking about it, that second thing should probably account for more than just mapname, and figure out the gamedir/path as well, based on what is set as the output folder. is that something that would be easy to do?

say if i keep my created bsps in id1/maps/other, it would do '+map other/[mapname]'

yet if someone decided to put them in quoth/maps/other, it could work out that '-game quoth +map other/[mapname]' would need to be entered... 
Making Hlwad's 
This works for me

1. Make a "logs" folder inside the
wordcraft\textures folder.
2. Create a new .txt document in same folder,
and copy the following:

wadconv.exe -wad2hl mywad.wad>logs\mywad.log
exit

3. Rename the .txt document to:

mywad.bat

4. Rename any .wad your converting to:

mywad.wad

5. Then rename it zerstorer.wad or whatever it is.

Don't know about Win7 though.