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Quoth: Expansion Mod Pack For Q1SP
The intention behind Quoth is to provide a large portion of content in as easily accessible form as possible for both players and mappers. The components are designed to be consistent with each other as well as the original id content. More is under development and updates will be released as and when they are ready. Yes we are mad, but ours is a madness brought on by divining the blasphemous truths of a terrible cosmos. Or something.

More info, download and images:

Direct download ( FilePlanet, sadly ) : (22 meg)

This pack contains several monster/weapon/power-up modificiations, and some test maps. Additional full map releases posted below...
2 Quoth Expansion Maps 
ne_marb: Crescendo of Dreams
a green marble/woodmet themed map with nonlinear gameplay and coop support.
download (FP):


ne_deadcity: The Rats in the Walls
an 'oldskool' rotting, dead city. nonlinear gameplay coop support and evil zombies included.
download (FP):

Quoth Expansion Map: Red777 
My latest, and probably last, knave map - Red777
Building on Contract and Chapters and drawing heavily on the Quoth content, this is a large map with features and textures not seen before in knave.

screenshots and download page:

direct download:

As always, I recommend FitzQuake for playing Red777. 
Yay, congrats on this release.
Already played Red777, and it rocks, highly recommended, will try out the rest asap. =) 
great to see more high quality stuff from you guys.

The Reviews wil appear at my site, "when they're done". ;) 
Temporary Mirror 
I think I can have this on for a couple of days for those who want to avoid fileplanet:
20 megs 
Holy Shit 
I was just thinking of using THe Lost Chapters stuff in one of my maps. 
is there an fgd? Am I being a dumbass? 
fek, sorry. We didn't get around to doing one; it's tricky cos neither of us use WC/Hammer and our standard fgd-bloke is Kinn, who hasn't been around as much. Forgot to take mention of it out of the tutorial.
We'll see what we can do tomorrow though. 
wow, amazing work guys (probably, haven't played it yet).

I'm really looking forward to getting hold of this. Maybe I'll even resume work on my Koth expansion map... probably not though :) 
Is It Me 
or does fileplanet suck a lot less now.

You can actually get files without ridiculous queues and ads. 
Still Have To Create An Account Though... 
...and I can't be arsed. Thanks for the mirrors, Spirit and Bambuz :) 
How Cool Can One Man Be? 
No matter! The 2 of you beat them all!!! Just finished playing through e1m1quoth and the tests(kelltest3 did not work, though, the gugs were not able to break free from the cages, or is it me?) and this stuff blows the valkiryes off Valhalla!!! Oh my, oh my!!!! That's too much for a sunday morning!!! Thanks boys, as long as dudes like you are around, who needs Doom13 or Quake51(where you turn into a talkin' strogg dick and get to see iron maidens from the inside? ;p)? 
Just one thing, played e1m1qoth, it's very nice, but is it normal that the small bars don't open when I take the nail powerup, like in the original e1m1? 
Great Job Guys 
Now I want to make a q1sp... you bastards 
Kell / Necros 
Is there a guide on teh net about how to setup GTK for use with Q1? Any help would be great 
Now, This Is Strange.... 
...the only way I can play kelltest3 is by cheating... I mean,if I enable whatever cheat before getting into the slipgate leading to the arena, the gug is free, if I don't, he stays behind the YA door, still hurting me with the earth pound attack but impossible to kill... any clues? 
what are the playable maps? it seems as if there's more than the 3 released above. 
check out the html in the post. at the bottom of the page it lists the 'test' levels. Necros uses GTK I think, but Kell - what editor do you use? 
first, thanks to everyone who is uploading mirrors! since SP was down, the only space we had available was FP, so that's really cool to have better sources available.

re: kelltest3, what seems to be happening (that i've seen) is that the gug, while walking, somehow starts heading back into the tunnel. i'm not exactly sure why it does that, other than it might be a movetogoal hiccup (the builtin function all monsters use to navigate).

re: gtkr + q1, i wrote a guide to setting it up for q1 editing a while ago;
tigger-on wrote one as well, which is more involved than mine, however, both of them only cover pre 1.5 versions of GTKR (ie: versions that didn't have the native q1 support)
as for setting up gtkr 1.5+ for q1, i don't know because i still use 1.4 (never liked the way 1.5 worked). there might be some literature on the qeradiant site on that though. worth checking.

re: FGD
both of us use gtkr and the format for fgd files seem really different to the very simple gtkr format. we'll see what we can do, but it may take a while to figure it out. :P

cheers :) 
Pardon Me 
As someone who hasn't mapped for a couple months let alone modified Gtk 1.5 for an even longer time, exactly how would I go about setting this stuff up for use with 1.5? I remember there was a lot of niggling about to get Chapters set up correctly, but I don't remember at all how to do it. I didn't see anything on the site/tutorial thing. Helpz0rz? 
i don't know how to do it specifically for gtkr1.5, but as far as using the entity defs, it should be as simple as dropping the .def files into whatever folder is currently holding your q1 defs. 
1.5 has full q1 support, so rtfm, it's really easy to set up and get going. To use the extra quoth stuff, yeah just add it to the q1 .def file. 
Counter Well, 
I extracted them to every folder that had a .def in it. No dice ~_~ 
my Quake1.def reads from the scripts folder of my Quake 3 Arena install (c/:Quake 3 Arena/baseq3/scripts) 
Mirror For The Three Separate Maps 
Also, Nice Work Necros And Kell, 
the skins on the new monsters are first rate. You may need to rework the original Quake skins just to get them up to your caliber.

One suggestion to help fill out the base monsters -- reskin Wally the Spider as a Deus Ex like spiderbot and add a lightning parameter for its pinchers.

Thanks for sharing the love. 
Ignorant Babble 
first impressions after playing the test maps and necros's marble thingy.

rough things:

There are exactly how many death knight variants? Too many? And they're always mixed, I get messed up who shoots what kind of balls etc.

And the enforcer variants too..
The red/blue/green shirt enforcers just don't fit that well with the overall brown enforcerness/base-enemyness. :/ Some of these too seem to be strong both close and far and really don't serve that much tactical purpose in my mind. It's also kinda annoying that "small weak basic monsters" shoot the most powerful things in quake like rockets (guided?). Dunno.

And some of the new enemies seem to be good both at close and far range which can make them kinda untactical to play against. Just trigger to the bottom and hope for the best.

The graphics are good, I like the death guard the most. His sword animations are pretty nice too.

The flying bat monster is ok, adds a new dimension to the combat when you have to try to figure what the next cover from the shaft beam will be. Though if deployed in packs, they're really frustrating to play against. It kinda sucks that it's quite detailed but the quake engine can't handle.

vongug.dem was great :D The monster is a bit big for it's bounding box? It shows through doors at times. Anyway, it's damn scary.

polyp, spidy and octopussy are already familiar from chapters and work nicely and are quality work.

I really dig the skybox and the sounds. Adds quite a lot to the atmosphere.

Necros' map: had that "sense of awe" thing. All that machinery and those different kind of areas. And the evilness. The combat balance was really very very good. Saved over 20 times and died a couple of times and was often surviving by a hairthin margin.

Departure from brown worked surprisingly nice. Some places reminded me of doom somehow.
The main arena and couple of places had really low fps (40 for me). I think it's because you had joined the various rooms or areas often with simple straight corridors and not doglegs...

Overall the whole thing rocks. And come on, fgd's seem super-simple if you edit them in wordpad. If I knew the specs I might just do that myself... 
i'm heterosexual and the plasma is ok. The pink is so light blue- 
Necros, you rule!!

I liked Crescendo of Dreams most out of the 3 full maps. Texture set/choice/work was absolutely first rate, lots of nods to doom in the design, I really enjoyed it.

Red777 was also good, the outdoor city section was the highlight there. I was a bit dissappointed by Rats in the Walls, but it was good fun blasting those zombies with the new gun. 
Had the most Doomish feel to me. It just totally reminded me of those urban Doom2 levels for some reason. The whole thing is r0x0r except for the very over-abundance of "1 gug then 2 gugs at once in super cramped area with no ammo" level finishing thingy. Gugs > droles at most annoying enemy now. Gotta hate that earthquake attack. 
It's also kinda annoying that "small weak basic monsters" shoot the most powerful things in quake like rockets (guided?).

that's why they do about 1/4 the damage of a regular rocket. ;)

their low HP means they won't survive long enough to fire more than a few rockets anyway, even with the shotgun. 
I still totally need help setting this up. I've put these files in like 6 different directories and nothing's worked yet. 
what version of gtk are you using? 

Wait, yes there's text.
I tried putting everything in 3 different folders in the Program Files/GTKRadiant folder, and in 3 different folders in games/quake (I think it was quake, id1 and utils or something.) 
if you have q1 entities show up in gtkr, then just dump the def files into the same folder that the q1 def file is in. 
what HeadThump said.
I haven't used 1.5 at all, necros only very briefly. The usual location for defs is in Quake III Arena/baseq3/scripts
If you don't have Q3 installed - and GtkR isn't exclusively for Q3 anyway - do a search for where your current .def file is located, whether it's quake1.def, or chapters.def or entities.def
GtkR 1.4 has the feature to read multiple def files, presumably 1.5 does too.
I'll have a look around and see if there's any more info. 
That's what I did. quake1.def/chapters.def were in the directories I dumped the files into, but nothing new showed up. I still have the Chapters entities, but not Bob or anything. 
I am so fast at replying o_O 
board ate my post with a recursive sql error something -_-

the gist was: there is something wrong with your gtkr. i have about a dozen def files in my scripts folder and they all load.

you can try just copying all the new def file text into your old def file. if that doesn't work, then i have no idea. 
good stuff... though I wish the different knights were visually more different. The blobby monster is just annoying, but the other new ones are cool.

Loved the style on necros doom maps :) 
Deleted all my Quoth.def files to start over.
Deleted all my chapters.def files, and Radiant still had chapters entities.
Copied all of the stuff from the Quoth.def files into a quake.def file, copied that file over all my other quake.def files, and it still uses chapters entities but not the new Quoth stuff.
Damn you for teasing me with new stuff I can't create with! 
Well . . . 
Worse comes to worse, just use a familar trigger, function, item, etc. then manualy rename it in the entity manager that pops up when you press 'N' when working in Radiant. I wind up doing that a lot anyway. 
if you deleted your chapters.def file and gtkr still had chapters entities, then you didn't delete all of them. otherwise, how was gtkr displaying those entities since you deleted them?

i'd search for all files *.def and see where the one that's actually being used is. 
I did a search "*.def" and manually deleted all chapters.def files it showed. I guarantee there are no chapters.def files on my system, but like I said I don't remember what I did to get chapters to work in the first place. 
i think you need to talk to spog or maybe an oracle. this is beyond my knowledge. :P 
This Sounds Good 
After a weekend of full blown Quake and Doom lan partying, I come home and find this, but sleep had to come first damn, all refreshed, downloading now, sounds quite interesting. 
Monsters And Misc Comments 
I really like the gug model. He is so cool, but I think some of his attacks feel a bit cheap.&#12288;The earthquake is particularly irritating, and the oozeball things are a bit tough to dodge somehow.

The flying imp things are ok, not really got much to say about them.

The super hell knights are sweet. Love the textures.

The base monsters are all ok I suppose, but not as good as the Zer ME. The drone (Bob) is crap though. I really didn't enjoy fighting bob. Too small, fast, makes annoying sounds, takes a fair bit of damage. Just irritating. Really fucked up my e1m1 quad (or triple damage) run too - totally disrupted the awesome adrenaline rush of that section and spoiled it for me completely :(

Bob as a helper drone would be cool. When I saw him on the quoth page I assumed he was a helper at first.

I like the old Koth monsters. The drole is awesome, and I don't think he needs to be changed.

The polyp is also very cool, but I can't figure out if I am avoiding its attacks or not half the time. I know it has a wind blast, but it feels like I am taking damage, but at the same time is a little unclear. I always seem to be near to them when they die and get slimed a bit... Still, they shit all over the spawn, although don't scare me as much.

Vermis is pretty nice, reminds me of the tentacle pit monster in HL :)

Do you guys reckon you could get some more flexible destructible wall code in there? I have some pretty good breakable wall code that I nicked from Zer and enhanced for an old level I was working on. Customiseable debris models, sounds, amount of debris, type of collision (bbox or bsp) and some other stuff like how it takes damage (can only destroy by inflicting x damage in one hit, for example). The debris stuff is also very easily hackable without code changes, so you can make the debris any model you like and set the sounds to any sounds you like in addition to the provided variations. I can send you it if you like.

Also, last time I was working with your code, the info_notnull explosion hack didn't seem to work properly. I'm not sure if this was a prob with the hipnotic stuff or your stuff. 
Nice Map 
Red777 is very, very pretty. 
It's pretty and nice and inspired and detailed.

a) I got lost so much. Reminded me of the chapters maps, "he falls like lucifer" and "false esteem".
b) in very many places I had fps ~40. maybe it was too hard to do vis blocking or something or it's just so detailed, don't know. Please, think of the children.

What was the room in the waterway (left from start) with a red orb. Making funny sounds when you shot? Was that supposed to be echo?

I really dig the art direction, the knave textures, the monsters and their weapons and the sounds and everything in this whole thing. 
Great work, guys. Good effort on the new monsters. I'm picky when it comes to them though. Noticed some bugs, but I won't go into all that. I'm sure you'll get plenty of helpful reports.

The gug is a great baddie. As I told Kell during playtesting, I liked him enough to have wished he was mine (even if I think he's tad slow.. giving him some oomph in his chase could have made him even more menacing).

The new start map and e1m1 remake. What can I say. Totally cool. It made me feel warm and fuzzy!

Red777 is sweet, as it was when I playtested. It has a level of 'class' to it not often seen, and difficult to replicate.

Necros: Loved ne_marb*. I loved the feel. Classic scrumptious vibes to those maps. ne_marb brought my mind back to when I was playing Doom. Kudos. I haven't enjoyed myself in a released map this way in a long while. Nice atmosphere. I dare say it's one of my favorites, if for no other reason the response it caused in me. Loved it. 
Necros, Kell 
You are welcome to use my links as "official" file locations btw. Of course I cannot promise to be as steady as Fileplanet is, but I think direct download > possible linkchange somewhen in the far future. My intention with the File Archive is to get rid of as many QuakeSP related Fileplanet links as possible ;)

Halfway through red777 I guess, I am very impressed so far. Monsters that walk through teleporters... Awesome! And deadly annoying sometimes :D 
Necros / Kell: 
If you're wanting an FGD file for the Quoth content, I could probably sort one out for you pretty swiftly. Though I'm not a Quake 1 mapper as such (due to me never actually getting anything finished and released, heh), I know the FGD format and Q1 entity properties more or less inside out, so it shouldn't be much trouble to set up a file for the Quoth stuff; all the info I'd need seems to be there in the .def files and tutorial documents. Interested? 
Re: Multiple 
than: i think one of the reasons Bob may seem to hard is because he wasn't really designed to fit in as a starting monster.
our attempt with bob was to expand the base monsters into more than just low level monsters.
Bob is intended to be a mid-range monster, similar in difficulty to, say, a fiend. The problem is that besides the ne_basetest map i built, we didn't have any completed maps that had a base theme to put the monster in.
So we had to make do with using e1m1rmx as a base (hehe :P) platform to show off bob.

More likely encounter scenarios involving bob would probably have the player with the SNG.

still though, i do agree he is slightly more difficult to kill than normal monsters. i think that may partially be because he got less testing than the other monsters and because i'm a pretty good player. he actually moved a fair bit quicker than he does now before, but kell made me tone him down.

re: the gug, what exactly is it that makes the gug's attacks feel cheap?
is it the screenshake/quaking movement aspect, or just the fact that it's damage is not easily avoidable (though mitigation is simple enough)?

keep in mind, this monster is supposed to be a fair bit above the shambler in terms of difficulty so a fair bit of health loss is expected whenever fighting them.

as far as the gug's ranged attack being difficult to dodge, that is more of a matter of getting a feel for the monster. here's a hint though. his attacks lead you slightly. also, his prefire animation is decently long. Try tricking him into leading you in the opposite direction that you want to head in. ^_^

MC: actually, i'd be very interested in hearing about bugs. we tried to get rid of them all, but as usual something is bound to slip through. you (and anyone, really) can email bugs to me or kell to fix in future iterations.

Spirit: Totally awesome! ^_^ links added-- cheers, dude! :) 
a very good mod. Nice new baddies. Especially that flying imp (don't know their names, I was killed only by Death Lord and of course by Gug).

Kell's map is awesome. I think it's the best knave map among the others. I found 10/14 secrets there, it was fun. Interesting layout providing a lot of exploration. Those flying erd globe looked great and fitted the theme very good.

Necros' rats map was strange. I wonder if the GL was there. I didn't find it, but managed to finish the map without killing any zombie.

Necros' marb map(s) were good. Nice style and awesome looks in the end. Something unusual.

It was really worth 2.5 hours of download =) 
the plasmagun gibs zombies. ;) 
I played a bit on ne_deadcity with cheats since I am stuck in red777 at the moment...
There is an unkillable and "shootthrough" zombie now. Take a look at this savegame and you'll know what I mean:

(It's from Darkplaces, but I think it should be no difference?) 
I think it�s a bug in Quake, also happens to me sometimes in dmsp.You have to reload or restart the map.

To Kell/Necros:
Awesome pack, I already enjoyed chapters a lot, and this is even more of the good stuff.
Great to see some new, challenging monsters.
One thing bugged me though: I started with ne_marb, played ultra-cautious, arrive at the end, get the plasma-gun, but I can�t switch back to it, have to kill the gaunts with sg and get killed by the droles. You cannot imagine how pissed I was !

So please, what is the impulse for the plasma-gun? It�s not 226/225 for the SOA-weapons ? 
is awesome! 
that should have been mentioned on the quoth site, sorry about that.

the select impulse for the Plasmagun is impulse 250.

you can also use the cycle weapon forward and back commands to select it. 
while were on this topic, the bomb selection impulse is impulse 251
Comments And Knights 
Had a poke around looking at everything, very nice work guys! The monsters seem pretty well balanced, without the power creep that you usually see with custom stuff. Obviously the gug is on the powerful side, but that's clearly the intention : - ). Played through the new maps too, liked all the rooftop views in red777 and the end to ne_marb especially.

Also, somebody in this thread mentioned that the death knights were kinda hard to tell apart visually. Would you guys like another knight model for use in a future version? I've got one that's modelled and skinmapped but not yet skinned right now. If you want it, I'd probably leave the burden of skinning it to you guys, so that it's more likely to fit in to the quake/quoth style, but I can probably get it animated. Looks something like this:
although use your imagination a bit, it's not a serious attempt at skinning it :- ). 
Fuck FIleplanet FTW 
great great pack love the penaples guy :) rockzzzz very well done... like the test maps of kell as well, the new monster�s rockzzzz good job!!! 
Played It 
nice additions, most of it works nicely.

map wise, Red777 - impressive, especially the outdoor section. Immaculately textured and lit but the layout is not very good and quite confusing and crampy.

ne_deadcity - map could have been built better but nice gameplay. too plain in the looks department.

ne_marble - classy, similar brushwork to deadcitry in parts but overall execution a lot better. Plus it had those really cool looking set piece areas. And I swear the very start bit had me fooled into thinking there was some coloured lighting implemented.

Excellent gameplay too.

Top work, I hope other mappers use this stuff, though I can envisage some truly evil gug scenarios. 
The Marble Colors 
i played with fitz... i spied the pak including some tga's... are they 24-bit? Not constrained to quake palette? 
<-- Greeeen 
yes, they are (in some cases) directly out of the doom wad file, so the colours are true to the original (if you play in glquake, you'll notice that the actual palette doesn't respond well to doom marble and looks more yellow, like some fiend went and pissed all over the walls...)

the red-shifted textures actually turned out ok in the quake palette, but i included them as tgas for consistency.

it was nice to work with the tga textures to get a nice vibrant green feel to the map (it made that one unreal rock texture really come alive). i think i might do this more often, as it lets me explore themes that haven't before appeared in quake. 
So... nobody cares about us lowly WC mappers. Just kidding.
I.W., if you read this - I know I would appreciate it if you would make up an fgd file for Quoth. I'm sure other budding mappers without an understanding of the fgd's nature would also appreciate it. 
i think i need a qrk file :) 
I Think 
kell is working on one, actually. 
Sorry, I have made headway with it. I started quite well at the beginning of the week, but then fatigue and formatting got the better of me and my brain came out my ears. I've spent the last few days poking it back in with a pencil.
I'll hopefully have a finsihed .fgd for the weekend. 
Questions About Info_mapgate And Info_endgate 
Could the following be done:

You start in a hub with a choice of 3 paths to take. As you take each path, and return to the hub, the entrance to that path is blocked. Once all 3 paths have been completed, a new set of 3 paths open. Once they are explored, the final path is opened and you play the final map. 
Brain Coming Out Again..! 
Yes, in the privacy of my head, that makes sense. You could do that. However, having '3 then another 3' is not inbuilt functionality. You'd need to achieve that effect with the 3 info_mapgates also firing at a trigger_counter ( which has a "count" of "3" obviously ) and the trigger_counter then fires to open up access to the other 3 entrances. 
Very Promising Pack 
the new monsters are nice, though i'm still not sure about the gug - it looks kind of strange (maybe it's the head...), but i like the earthquake when it falls to the floor. knight variations are good, too. i can't comment on the base monsters so much, atm.
the chapters monsters rule anyway.
the plasma gun model (or rather its skin) doesn't fit.

necros: deadcity was okay, but i got stuck in one corner behind the stargate teleporter ring and had to noclip out.
marb was great - the doom textures look good, very detailed and all, even though i had the impression they make the map look a little like candy or something?! nice to see some decent rotation again; the lift before the end was nice, too.
one 'monster can't find target' error once.

kell: cool testmaps.
red777 rules! so big and detailed, and soo many clever secrets (of which i only found 5 at first :/)! i wished for more monsters, though.
i can't think of anything else to say - likely this map is just prefect in many ways.

kellcros: in most of your maps 'wallmonster in wall' warnings appear when monsters are spawned. it doesn't affect the gameplay afaik, but still the messages suck. is this related to the spawn code? 
monster can't find target
wallmonster in wall

never got those errors when playing. i assume you're using an engine besides fitz/dp/gl/software. i only tested in fitz, dp and the normal engines.

it's worth looking into, but since non of the engines i have give those errors, i don't know if i can do anything.

if you tell me what engine you were using, i'll d/l it and take a look 
fitzquake, developer mode 
i never used that o.o

guess i should develope, in.. you know... developer mode. :P

still though, why are you playing a mod in dev mode? o.0

you should expect to see extra text in dev mode. if it bugs you, stop playing with it on. 
i added the command to my fitzq shortcut, so i don't have to type it everytime i run the game, for i am contantly developing (errm, well..)
you're right, i could have turned it off, but how would you have learned about the warnings then? :) 
touch� ;) 
When my brain leaks out I usually just wait for the drugs to wear off. My brain seems to be much more docile in this state, and pushing it back in is less of a chore. Still hurts like a bitch, though.
Thanks for the commitment and hard work from both of you guys. 
tis done, I've checked the entities appear in WC, though I haven't actually built a map with it. The hipnotic rotatings are in a separate .fgd, cos it was easier to just do a c'n'p from the hipnotic.fgd
Just waiting for necros so they can be uploaded. I'll email them directly to interested mappers today if it's quicker. 
here's the fgd file.

Kell also fixed a few typos on the tutorial... ;) 
About The Monsters 
I realy enjoyed fighting against the base monsters. Bob is my favorite here. The model and skin are great, also the behavior and final explosion. The Rocketeer and Defender are also cool to fight against. But I wouldn't use them in packs of more then 2 monsters.
The Gug is really well done and again fighting against this monster rocks. The earthquake attack is ok. Somehow I didn't like how the projectiles look like. Maybe it's the color.
Can't say much about the Knights.
The Night Gaunt is a bit boring to fight, but since you can kill it fast it is no problem.
And now to the monsters I don't like.
First the Flying Polyp. This one is realy annoying. It hurts you constantly, takes much time and ammo to kill, it always spots you first (this was my impression) and you can't kill it by surprise. The invisibility is unfair somehow. And I also don't like the skin. The only thing I liked about the Polyp was how it dies. When Lost Chapters pack was released I was reading about this monster and everything sounded cool and interesting, but in-game it is terrible in my opinon. I liked the classic quake Spawn much better.
The Drole - I don't like him. He looks strange, and dies strange. The projectiles are really hard to avoid and do lots of damage. In close combat you don't realy have a chance to survive. Again, when I was reading about this monster first time it looked very interesting with those special triggers and stuff, but in-game it is frustraiting.
The Voreling - I liked Kinns spiders better. 
Stupid Question 
I completly forget where to download the knave texture set... Could somebody give me the link please ? 
It seems the .zip with all the .defs has been replaced with only the tutorial. Is there anyway I could get the .defs for this, as Spog has told me to put all the files in the gtkr folder, which sounds fishy but I would like to try anyway? Hmm? Please? 
Sorry Man 
that was me screwing up-- i repackaged the tutorial file, but forgot the def files.

anyway, i reuploaded it with all the files again. 
No one could help me til RPG came along and happily converted the file to a .ent using GomJabbar's handy tool (although I couldn't get it to work) and then placed it in AND BEHOLD THE QUOTH MAPPAGE!

In conclusion, RPG is cool. 
I'm Sorry 
if I came out too negative when overviewing the whole quoth thing. I just wanted to say that the whole feeling of good and considered consistent design and art is the feeling that I have about it. 
New stuff.

Bob - total shit, looks out of place, easy but very boring to fight.

New Grunts / Enforcers - fine, skins a bit gay but fun to fight.

Gaunts - nice, detailed model, good to have another flying creature, more fun than scrags.

Polyp - better than old polyp, attack is less annoying. Does very little damage so it's okay you get hit a bit. I like they way they just float around and often don't see you (Ankh you are wrong). Good fun to fight really as the disappearing keeps things tense but not too tough or dangerous.

New Deathknight 1 - fine, decent style and stuff.

New Deathknight 2 - only seen him once, particle effect is neat, can't remember rest.

Gug - pretty good, nice to have another tougher monster. Attack looks a bit crappy but good fun to play against. Earthquake rarely happens but seemed interesting. Model looks is okay, well done, and the head is good, but it looks a bit ape-like. I'd say it's close to being very good if it had been tweaked.

Hammer - whatever.

Triple nail - fine.

Cross - only used it once and did little.

(Nice models BTW).

Plasma - not got it yet. 
Red777 - very fun map, nicely balanced gameplay, good combination of sometimes quiet and sometimes hectic. Very nice that you start in a relatively plain area and then see the cool areas later. Nice sky in AGquake. Layout nice and secrets excellent. Lots of variety and even trick-jumping to get secrets sooner. I got 12/14 - no silver key :(. Lots of great little details, especially looking up in all the secret areas and alcoves. Only complaint is teleporting into the final arena seemed out of place in the layout. Otherwise, r0x0r. Good name too.

Vongug.dem - best demo evar. 1337 falling in lava skills. 
Yay To Yet Another Excellent Release! 
First off, I'd like to compliment Kell and Necros on yet another cool release.

I'm curious though, any plans on releasing the QC source code? 
necros to map in Quark what do i need??? 
I Have No Idea... 
-i haven't mapped in quark for like 3 years or something
-i never really knew how to add custom entities then either
-i only used the old 4.07 version of quark, never the new ones. 
:) i will ask in Quark forum maby they can help me out... thks :) 
Played Red777 
This is the only map of Quoth that I've played but I really enjoyed its visuals and the copious secrets (found 12/14 on first play through, will go back and look for the other two.) I played on Hard and it was tough but doable except for the end battle. The Gug splash damage did me in before I could get off enough rounds, even with the help of the second MH and RA. I like the Gug; it looks like a Xorn from Dungeons and Dragons but the high splash damage in a cramped arena felt unfair. It was too easy to get cornered and the 'open' area was too small for fighting two at a time.

The Guants are interesting and a good alternate flying enemy. They are deadly in packs.

Red777 had a layout that was a bit confusing but it is a great map and so multi-leveled and intricate. Very 3D and you had to look everywhere for attacks. Nice map, Kell. The supply balance felt good (but not generous) but I did find lots of secrets. I don't know how survivable the map is on hard without hidden goodies to help.

My general impression of the enemies and extras of Quoth is that they are very professional in quality. If anything could be improved, I think the Gug skin could look more refined and menacing if it had that bloody and dirty look that the Quake ogres and shambler have.

A bug that I noticed was that I saved a game before the Gug finale with the RL in my hands. If I changed weapons, the RL was gone for good. Weird and dissapointing.

Quoth is a great package and I hope the user maps start rolling in. 
My Newest Sm Is Quoth. 
Only with respect to monsters. Alot of gameplay can be added via the simpler teleportation techniques.

I think you guys should put trees into your next version of Quoth. And func_breakables.
I love everything about this package, by the way. Red 777 and Ne_marb are the shit. Ne_deadcity was pretty good too. Nice old skool theme.
We need a Quoth icon! ... and a quake 4 one, I suppose. 
Big Pile Of Feedback. 
Wow, this is some top-notch custom content. I've just finished playing through all the maps and playing around with the new entities, so here's a heap of feedback on the new stuff. Monsters:

- Bobs felt kind of irritating at first, but once you get the hang of keeping a lock on them they seem really good fun to fight against. Probably encourage high-speed continual strafing / aiming more than any other Q1 monster, and therefore seem most fun to encounter in places when the player *can* constantly strafe around; the second half of ne_basetest used them really well, I thought. Skin blends well with idbase greens and the explosion when it dies is satisfyingly crunchy, though I was surprised the explosion doesn't hurt you at all; maybe a very small amount of splash damage (e.g. like the Polyp death) would have been fitting there.

- Rocketeers add some nice variety to the base lineup, and the fact that they fire weak homing rockets instead of just rockets makes them decently interesting to fight against. The modified skin is nice, though the red colour does look a bit garish against the standard Quake base texture sets. I guess it's preferable that they look distinctly different from normal Grunts even at a distance, though...

- Defenders seemed like the least exciting of the new monsters aesthetics-wise, but being a base Ogre they fill a nice gap in the standard monster lineup and seem pretty solid. Having them use the DBS as a sort-of-melee attack was a nice design idea.

- Vorelings rock. They play a role that no other Q1 monster really does and play it very well.

- Flying Polyps are in more or less the same boat as Bobs: they seem really irritating to fight against at first because they require you to do so much more moving and aiming than the standard Q1 beasties, but are quite fine when you get the hang of them.

- Death Guards were probably my least favourite out of the new guys, mainly because they didn't seem that much different from standard Death Knights in how the player has to tackle them. They became more fun when I realised that you could just jump over their projectile attacks while running straight towards them, which gives the carnage some nice flow.

- Death Lords, on the other hand, seemed generally more interesting: they've got decently hard to avoid attacks, but not so much health that killing them becomes a chore. Good job.

- Nightgaunts have a shockingly nice model / skin and sound effects, and the fact that they don't try and get up close to molest you gives Nightgaunt combat a different enough feel from other combats. I thought they'd possibly have been better with less health than they've got though, because although killing them with any weapon without being hit is usually easy, it invariably takes a while if you don't want to waste your high-end ammo, and can get slightly dull when there's more than one of them. Still a top-notch monster, though.

- Droles rock. They're sort of like Shamblers would be if Shamblers were always threatening and not unfair when placed in wide-open areas with no cover. Like Death Guards, it's also nice that you can jump over their projectile attack.

- Gugs seem generally great too, and they're filling up a nice "sub-boss" role that no other single monster quite does at the moment. Not sure I like all the Gug-then-double-Gug action in the maps and test maps though, as double-Gug seems like it can end up as instant death quite easily if the player doesn't handle it very skilfully. Like the other harder-than-your-average-monster monsters in Quoth they seem much more agreeable when you've encountered them a few times and worked out how to deal with them best, though. The earthquake attack has a great OH SHIT factor, especially the first time it hits you.

- Vermis I'm not so fond of. Model / animations / sounds are nice and professional, but actually fighting a Vermis seems kind of dull; in all the Vermis combats I've seen so far you just end up ducking back and forth behind cover / out of the way of the spore attack, systematically unloading your most powerful weapons into it until it drops - which makes it feel kind of like a normal enemy with a huge amount of health, rather than a boss in the true sense. If it had more variety - e.g. if its tactics / attacks changed halfway through the battle, like a boss in an old-school shoot-'em-up or something - it'd probably interest me more. Still looks the nuts, though. 
Wow, I Hit The Character Limit. 
The new items:

- Warhammer I actually really like. I'm a fucking boring conservative player and I love beating Knights and Vorelings to death without wasting ammo. Mappers, put this in every map that has enemies in it, please.

- Plasma Gun is very nicely implemented, though after playing through all the maps I've still not got a clear idea of how good it is compared to the LG. :/ Probably because it uses the kind of ammo you want to conserve the most...

- Cross of Deflection and Trinity are generally nice too, and the only thing I could really fault them on is that, unless you've read the readme, it's almost totally unclear what they do. Still, considering that people are going to get used to seeing them and using them that shouldn't be a prob.

Anyhow, while trying out the new content I also noticed a few bugs and some other things that look like they could potentially be bugs. I'm pretty sure these are all fully-recreatable and not just me ballsing up, so in case you don't know about some of this stuff already, have at the info:

- A problem crops up if you trigger-spawn a monster_tarbaby; the game tries to load up the zombie's model and animation for the monster instead of its own. If there's a zombie in the map this will produce a fully functional bouncing, exploding zombie, but if not the game'll abort due to the model not being precached.

- The "spawndelay" key (not the "delay spawn" spawnflag) doesn't seem to work for Droles.

- The corpse_lynched1 and corpse_lynched2 entities appear to load up exactly the same skin (with marine combat gear on the body).

- The trigger_command entity currently centreprints its "message" value when it fires its targets - like the trigger_multiple / _once / _secret entities would - as well as entering that text as a console command.

- The tutorial lists a new "onlymonster" key for trigger_teleports, and the def files list a "monsteronly" key, but neither of those keys seem to be working.

- The hipnotic trigger_damagethreshold entity is mentioned in the tutorial, but doesn't seem to be in the Quoth progs (engine gives a "no spawn function for..." message if you try to use one). On the other hand, the hipnotic play_sound entity does seem to be in the progs, but isn't mentioned in the tutorial (not that it's very different from play_sound_trigered...)

- Not sure if this is actually a bug, but Rocketeers don't seem to make a noise when they spot the player.

- The tutorial mentions that the info_effect_pulse and trap_lightning_triggered entities can be aimed with either the angle or mangle keys, but as far as I could tell a mangle value doesn't work for either of them. (Not sure if that's strictly a bug either.)

- If you load up a saved game while carrying a Cross of Deflection or Trinity, the "screen glow" effect will be carried over and stay on permanently.

- I noticed a couple of typos while working through the tutorial, too: the worldspawn key "lose_items" should really be "reset items", and "monster_grunt_rocket" should really be "monster_army_rocket". Not a big deal considering that you're supplying editor def files, though. Oh, and you didn't mention that a func_hordespawn can spawn items as well as monsters. :P Blatantly not what it was designed for, but I *think* it's the only way you can trigger-spawn an item in the current Quoth progs, so if that's the case it might be worth mentioning if you update that at any point.

Gah, I hate reporting bugs, it makes you sound so damn picky. Overall this is excellent stuff and a really high-quality wodge of new content; keep up the good work. 
I.W. A big THANKS for all those bug reports!

sadly, most of them are entirely my fault due to insufficient testing. some of the things were rushed at the end (trigger_damagethreshold for example-- none of our maps used it, and it got added (or didn't as the case seems to be) right near the end).

monster_tarzombie, again, this is my fault. the spawn code is a copy paste with small changes for each monster. i must have forgotten to change the model name in the tarbaby's spawning code, and since none of us used it, no one noticed. :\
sort of the same situation with spawndelay not working for droles, i must have forgot to add that line of code to them.

for trigger_command, again, a rather large blunder on my part. i failed to recall that the message key will be used in the trigger code (which the trigger_command goes through). this problem is enough to make it useless atm, unless you're willing to put up with loads of crap on the screen. (you can still use info_commands + trigger_once, but trigger_command was supposed to replace that :S)

the correct key is "monstersonly" (s on monster)

no sight sound on rocketeers is another blatant blunder on my part.

as for the screen glow effect... i'll have to look into this. the main problem is that this is a major hack. the quake engine's glows are normally handled via builtin (non configurable) effects. to get different colours, it was necessary to abuse the v_cshift console command. i thought i had added sufficient checks at different parts of the code to reset back to clear, but i must have missed one.

*sigh* aren't i the smart one? go me... :S 
Excellent, thanks for the bug report. Not sure what form the solution will take; we could release a pak1 with only bigfixes, but I'm not sure that's ideal.
I shall confer with the above co-conspirator ¬_¬

We need a Quoth icon! ... and a quake 4 one, I suppose.

Best. Feedback. Evar. 
"This Will Produce A Fully Functional Bouncing, Exploding Zombie" 
Sounds like fun :)

I still haven't played quoth enough :/ 
There's A Small Bug... 
... in the rocket grunt's AI. When it is too close to the player, the monster don't shoot (maybe just trying to avoid to blow itself), so it just walks on you. Since it has a secondary missile attack, would be just the case of switching to it, or making it not standing too close.

Anyway, a great job, guys. Congrats. Looking forward for the next paks... 
Not Really A Bug 
more just an aspect of the monster.

it has no close range attacks, and kell and i felt that such a low level monster didn't deserve any fancy AI, and opted for having it powerless at melee range. 
Glad That Info Was Helpful. 
Anyhow, when I was commenting on all the new content I forgot to comment on the, er, actual maps, so:

- red777 had nice levels of interconnectiveness and generally had the feel of a polished map in an established theme. Trying to work out how the layout fitted together was kind of like looking at one of those Escher images with all the stairs and doorways, it had that very "busy" look about it. Gameplay felt consistently solid, and more secrets than a small Q1 episode gave it some nice exploration value and lastability, too.

As for things that could maybe have been better... I thought the central plaza area might have been more impressive if done on a larger scale, as in the form it's in it seems slightly cramped for a focal, outside hub area. And of course, big outside areas just look cool, though I'm not sure how much it was already pushing the r_speeds as it was (it did look nice and visually complex).

- ne_marb built up a pretty fresh and unique theme with its nice texture / arcitecture / skybox choices. Managed to successfully remind you of classic Doom maps while the length and scale of the whole thing made it right at home alongside other modern Q1 maps. Generally showcased the new content well (this was the first Quoth map I played), and ammo and health always seemed well-balanced which made for some fun slaughtering. All the intricate, clanking machinery and the serene view from the top of the structure really reminded me of the Myst series, of all things, and added to the unique feel.

Things that could possibly have been better...? Although each individual room was nice, the overall layout of the map seemed a bit on the simple side, with each offshoot-area being fairly linear until you reached the key / switch and headed back; would possibly have been cooler if each pair of offshoot areas (the two to the right and the two to the left) interconnected in some clever way, and / or if the central area was asymmetrical.

- ne_deadcity was a bit of a surprise after marb (I loaded it up expecting more ridiculous-sized epic-ness), but it was a fun small-scale map with a nice layout that showed off Plasma Gun gameplay well. Forcing the player to run the hell away from all those Zombies until they could work out where the explosives were was a fun plan, and there was enough movement space for it to work. The ending seemed to prove that although double-Gug combat can be unfair, single-Gug combat is pretty easy when you've got an SNG or PG: not sure what the ideal Gug balance would be at the moment.

BTW, Necros, one more bug: the spawndelay key doesn't seem to work on tarbabies at the moment either. Every other monster that can be trigger-spawned seems to work fine with it, though. 
Played Necro's Maps 
This was a nostalgic experience. I've played tons of DooM wads and these maps, aside from the enemies, felt very DooMy. The layouts reminded me of how wad makers strived to make 3D looking levels with the restrictions imposed by DooM's inability to have a sector over a sector. Of coarse the 3 Quake maps didn't stick to this limit but the styling of the map and it's fairly 2D layout really captured the boxy and angular feel to most DooM maps where the most curvy thing were the curved stairways. Very nice lighting and progression, again, it felt very DooM-like in which each zone had it's own design and often progression was based on getting through a series of zones to open up new areas. These maps reminded me more of the better user wads then of the id maps since user wads were often much bigger then the ones that shipped with the game.

Okay, bug time. I confused myself after trapping myself in the area where you release the shaft locks. I took the elevator down and then hit the button at the bottom to raise the elevator to see if there was a secret. Elevator was DooM style, just a solid block. I moved on oblivious to the fact that the elevator button at the bottom was now blocked by the lift itself. After searching around for a way out, I ended up noclipping up the shaft.

Near the end of NE_marb and in ne_marb2, I couldn't change weapons. I don't know why but I would see a flash of the RL but then it would dissapear (a similar problem was in Red777). Is something wrong? I had to cheat to kill the last two gugs since the shotty was futile.

I loved DooM and these maps were a nostalgia trip. If it had Cacodemon's, Barons of Hell, Imps and the odd Lost Soul, it would have been DooM to me.

The non-DooMy parts with mechanisms and spinning brushes and craggy sticky out things were great too. You used enough of Quake to make it feel fresh but kept the DooM disguise convincing. And nice skybox too. 
Thanks, Scragbait :) 
about the bugs, i've heard a couple of people mention something up with the rocket launcher and weapon switching... i never personally noticed anything, but i'll definatly look into it.

also, re: getting stuck by the lift, that was really funny ;) i never considered that possibility, but i should have. :P 
That Elevator In Ne_marb... me too, when I went back looking for the secrets. Underneath elevators is an auto-check when secrets aren't forthcoming. :P

Another elevator-related thing I noticed in that map, too: looking down the gaps at the sides of the really elaborate final elevator, I could see some teleporter fluid beneath it, but I didn't find a way to get back into that area (to go under the elevator) after the elevator raised. Was that a planned "way back up" that didn't need to be used in the end, or did I miss something there? 
that is for coop :)

because of the fact that the lift is a one way trip in SP, other players wouldn't be able to get up. underneath the lift, there's a teleporter which will bring other players up top. 
Should have thought of that, and in that case, I feel slightly silly: at first I thought that tele must have been the one secret area I was missing, and spent at least five minutes trying to find a way to get into it in single-player. DAMN YOU COOP MODE! 
Weapon Bug 
See Post 107

FYI, I play Quoth with FitzQuake. That may or may not be a factor in the weapon glitch. 
i just read through the quoth mapping tutorial and must admit that my initial doubts were unfounded. the new or modified progs are very useful indeed and maybe i'll use them for a map i have in mind... 
QuArK Support 
I assume the wish is there so I'll try to get it done somewhen in the near future :) 
in quoth_tutorial.html#func_hordespawn

"spawnclassname + spawfunction
Found 13/14 secrets - not where's that 14th... 
14 SECRETS !!! OMG !!! 
This map should have been posted to the SM pack #104 (Secrets Map) ;P 
RPG Stamps Quoth With "Approved" 
Great job. All my feedback is basically nitpicking. The gug skin doesn't quite meet with my taste, and same for the new grunt and enforcer skins. Bob doesn't fit in, IMO, but his crash animation rocks. All the other monsters are pretty thematically accurate and fun. Red777 and ne_marb are great; red777 is super marvy cool. Including e1m1quoth was nice.

I'm really, really eager to see Kell's next project. 
How Bout Them Libraries 
RE: I.W. Comments On Vermis 
I'll make this quick, because I have to go use the bath right now (yes, I stink).

I really liked the vermis test map where there is a two-tiered platform surrounding a pit. However, I do agree that it could use some extra tactics (yes, like an old school shooter!) to make it more interesting.

In fact, I love how so many (predominantly Japanese) games put a lot of attention into boss monsters to make them interesting to fight. I hate 95% of FPS game boss monsters, because they are just the same stupid shit. It's either figure out some kind of crap puzzle, or just shoot it a lot whilst it performs the same crappy attack over and over. To overgeneralise, boss monsters in western games tend to look like an afterthought, whilst those in Japanese games look more like they have had a lot of time and effort put into them.

The only FPS I can think of with good bosses is Metroid Prime. That's it. Seriously. (Painkillers were ok I suppose) 
However, I do agree that it could use some extra tactics to make it more interesting.

With our monsters, we tend to stick to the Q1 simplicity whereby monsters have 1 ranged + 1 melee attack. It's not an absolute of course; vores are so range-oriented they have no melee, and the knights' greatest weakness is that they must reach melee to make any attack at all. ( note that the fiends' leap is their equivelant of a ranged attack )

The Vermis is mostly there as a one-step up from Chthon and Shub. At least the vermis has a melee attack, and an unusual one at that. Both its attacks are such that they can be more influenced by map design than Chthon's hotrocks. It also isn't limited by a one-trick kill method that wouldn't stand up to repeated appearances. That's pretty much it.

Crafting a sophisticated boss is not out of the question, but does demand a lot of focus and testing. The servitor races would not permit me to elaborate on such development, but we have done more than consider the possibility. Ther vermis was intended to be the capstone combat to chapters. I still consider the vermis one of the most successful projects by necros and I; it took only 6 days from concept to completion, and another two days for external playtesting. The sort of boss you're describing was well beyond the time we had in the midst of the chapters project. 
It was amazing when it snatched and tossed you the first time (and when it did that to a fiend later too :P).

It's probably map design and playtesting that would have to be done carefully here.

Ie, not permanent cover that makes the gameplay just corner-wanking. 
Further Expansion Feature Requests 
Quoth is awesome, you have both done a fantastic job of making all the new stuff feel fresh yet very at home in the Quake environment. I am currently making a large map for Quoth (it's taken over from my more important portfolio boosting hldm2, because it's way more fun*) and although Quoth has a lot of awesome stuff, I am greedy and want more. Feel free to ignore me of course, but here are some suggestions:

exploding wall code
PLEASE! As I mentioned before somewhere, I have some modified Zer code which is very flexible and works well. We can currently use killtargetted func_walls, but it's not ideal.

extra shooters
I want to be able to fire cthon lava balls, and other monster missiles from shooters and have them aim at players (targetting within a specific angle threshold and perhaps varying targets in coop) or specific targets. It would also be nice to have them fire at set intervals, semi randomly, if the player is in sight/range or only on trigger. For my map, I only need the cthon lava ball, and I am going to try the hack in the "teaching an old progs.dat new tricks" thread, but a specific shooter would be nice.

gug modifications
I really like the gugs, but their eathquake attack really pisses me off. Even though it doesn't do a lot of damage, it just feels unfair. You might not like the idea of mapper configureable monster behaviour, but I would like the ability to set range, frequency and timing of the attack, as well as having flags for whether the gug does it only when he has seen the player within the last 30 seconds (i.e. the player could be hiding somewhere, or could have gone somewhere else in the map). Setting the frequency timer to 0 should disable the attack completely.

Having said that, I like the idea of the earthquake attack, it's just that at the moment it feels a bit cheap.

In addition, it would be nice to have an extra target that gugs can fire when they use their attack, as I would like to have scenery that breaks when they are using their attack.

bob as player helper drone
I mentioned this earlier on in the thread, as I actually though bob was intended to be a player helper drone powerup when I saw the pic. Although I am not personally making a base map, I think it would be fun to allow bob to work as a player helper.

In addition to having a separate player helper bob skin, he should have a power up animation for when the player finds and activates him, along with a power down anim for times when he might not be able to come with the player (trigger toggles power on/power off).

*HUGE RANT WARNING. Hammer is a total pile of shit. How Valve actually made it worse to use since 1.6 is beyond me. Aside from the easier to use camera controls and accelerated 3d view, the more recent changes to the interface are annoying (double click on a brush to get to visgroups...) and some of the HL2 specific stuff is so shit I can't understand how it has been made the way it has (displacement editing with an airbush only, stitching depends on brushes rather than displacement vertices...) Crashes MORE than wc1.6. Takes ages to load compared to WC 1.6, requires Steam, and HL2 takes forever to load. Why the fuck have the modelling tools not evolved AT ALL since wc1.6? What the hell is with that? Making maps with it is not much fun basically. I used to think WC was better than Radiant. However, Radiant has been hugely improved over the past 5 years or so, yet WC is almost the fucking same. WC editing is fine for simple games, such as Q1/2 (still using 1.6), but it is pretty hopeless as a tool for modern games imho. 
One More Thing 
I forgot to add that the explosion hack seems to be a bit broken in quoth. The sound wasn't playing back earlier. I know there is a triggerable sound entity, but that's another ent, and more hassle to set up.

Since the explosion is a hack, maybe you could add some of the more useful hacks in as proper entities? (explosion basically). 
i want to map for Quoth :( but still dont know how with Quark! 
I was working on a Quoth .qrk addon file for QuArK but it turned out to be much too time intense for me. You can always just rename entities, triggers are whatever to what something is called in Quoth. Then add or delete specifics with the + and - smybols. Not a fast way but at least you can map for Quoth that way.

Let me guess... You want the hordespawn, eh? :D 
i just want to add some monster... if possible i whould like to add in this big map i�m making now! it feat very nice some of the monster�s :) 
Spirit / Trinca 
Don't forget to add the Quoth pack nt the tmpQuark directory where the map are compiled.. it's usefull to be able to launch correctly the map with all Quoth pack feature included... 
exploding wall code:

what do you want for this, exactly? i mean, if a bmodel disappears when triggered or when killtargetted, is there a difference? :P or do you want some kind of rubble spawning?
can you describe what the modified zer code does?
i suppose rubble spawning wouldn't be a bad idea. could probably get away with only using one precache, and having multiple rubble models in different frames with different skins. But then how do you make rubble to match different textures? have a billion skins for any possible texture colour on top of having different skins for the different rubble frames?
we'd have to look into this. kell has mentioned wall breaking stuff though, so there's a good chance.

about extra shooters, (even auto aiming ones) that shouldn't be too hard to do.

about the gug though, i'll be honest with you and say he's working pretty much as intended.
there is only one thing though, as we never considered that the player might be able to run from a gug and not get back to kill it. having the earthquake attack eventually time out and stop being used might be a good idea for those occasions. possibly even making it toggleable via a trigger, but we'd have to test something like that.
kell and i discussed configurable monster behaviour a fair bit, and we like to stay away from that as much as possible because we want behaviour to be obvious, and consistent, but your suggestion has merit.

amusingly, we have discussed the possibility of having the gug be able to earthquake at specific times and trigger off targets to break walls down and such.

on bob... well, for this i'm really not sure... Ai tends to break down into tears when it's forced to do anything 'non-standard' (remember the helper monsters in hipnotic? :P)
if something like this were made, it would be something general that all monsters could use, i think.
again, we'll have to discuss this, as i can sort of see where you're going with this, and the possibilities it might produce, but it seems to be moving a fair bit away from the quake 'feel' as helpers aren't really what quake is about.

one thing i definatly want to do, though, is some proper logic stuff. if:or/and... pissed me off that i had to build all those stupid lightning + door tricks in marb. :\

i will be honest with you here and say that i'm not sure when any of these changes can be made. kell and i aren't actively working on quoth at the moment. 
What Necros Said 
Thanks For The Reply... 
I wasn't sure if you were still working on stuff, sicne Kell mentioned something about a new boss monster earlier.

Anyway, the exploding wall code... I can email it to you in a couple of days. It's potentially buggy because I wrote it, but I never noticed any problems. Here is a list of features:

health: amount of damage to take
rubble: amount of rubble to spawn on destruction

various damage methods: either explode by trigger or taking damage. Optionally toggle one hit kill only, which causes the walls health to reset if it is not destroyed in one hit (i.e. for explosive/quad ssg only destruction)

BBOX or BSP clipping: either use a regular bounding box for clipping (as in Zer) or use BSP clipping (same as doors, plats etc.) so the players or monsters can walk on it.

styles: built in styles include brick, metal, wood and gib (maybe another I forgot) , but use 2 models I think. This could be modified into one model using three different frames easily enough I guess, but I don't know how to edit q1 models. Each style has it's own sounds.

In addition, styles can be overridden and any models or sounds can be used. e.g. set model1/model2 an/or noise1/noise2 (explode and gib bounce sounds) for custom effects, such as spawning gib explosions using quakeguy heads :)

Also, I think the force of the damage to the wall affects the velocity (maybe just speed) of spawned gibs.

There might be a few more options for it, but I don't have the code to hand, so I can't check right now.

Regarding the helper monsters in Scourge, I rather liked them. It was fun to have a Shambler spawn and do half my work for me :) The horn sound that summoned them was cool too if I remember it correctly. The early mod cujo was quite fun also, as was the axe of persuasion.

As for the Gug stuff, what you are considering is pretty much all I need really. I want the gugs to stop earthquaking after they haven't seen the player in a while, because I wanted to put one near the start of the level, when the player can't kill it. My current idea is to just put it well out of range, but I don't know exactly what the layout will be yet.

By the way, I don't particularly want the following features for my map, but they could be cool to have included in Quoth (for subsequent maps) if you have time.

Basically pox extras. Some of the coolest mods I have ever seen for Quake, yet nobody has actually used them in a map afaik. The main features are flowing water, advanced trains, and water that can be attached to func_trains (and behaves exactly as you would expect it to behave). There are some particle features that are quite interesting, although I'm not sure of a practical use for them, although the weather and dripping effects are quite nice.

Even if you don't want to include them, they are certainly worth a look. 
I Checked That Out 
some neat things there

another thing i've wanted to do is be able to bind movers to other movers like in d3 (ie: have a button and door follow a lift). i think that was mentioned for the func_switch ent, but it would be cooler if it worked with all movers. probably not for rotaters though, since rotation in quake sucks already.

for breakable walls, sure, send over the bit of code (the email i have listed in my profile should work).
It's potentially buggy because I wrote it, but I never noticed any problems.
that's fine, it should feel right at home alongside my own stuff. XD

also, i'm still not entirely convinced helper monsters is a good idea. i tend to think of it as a gimick, tbh. maybe if it was in a limited capacity... ie: the helper lives for 30 seconds, like a quad or pent, then dies after that time is up.

anyway, i'm not in the habit of promising anything, esp. at this point since we're on break. :P

kell and i are (usually) open to suggestions so feel free to post anything else. no promises though. ;) 
kell and i are (usually) open to suggestions so feel free to post anything else.

I'm eating a salad right now, and I'm ready to move on to the main course: Gauntdrop! 
Oh Yes... 
...the legendary and long looked for Gauntdrop :) 
Breakable Walls 
i suppose rubble spawning wouldn't be a bad idea. could probably get away with only using one precache, and having multiple rubble models in different frames with different skins. But then how do you make rubble to match different textures? have a billion skins for any possible texture colour on top of having different skins for the different rubble frames?

Medal of Honor had a system where you actually made rubble out of brushes, placed it roughly in the right spot inside the intact wall, and then gave it an info_null to fly towards when triggered. The intact wall model would vanish, and the rubble would all appear in place, fly outwards and bounce around. Of course it used a lot of edicts, but it gave total control for size, shape, texture, and number of rubble pieces used. 
...and use up one precache slot for each and every piece of bsp model rubble. ;)

i'm not saying it's not cool looking, or that it wouldn't work well, of course. but it would only be feasible if you had a string of small maps where you could afford to chunk out quite a few precache slots. (since bmodels and model precaches take up the same slots, of which there are only 128, i believe).
normal quake without any monsters or items already loads up a fair bit (about 20 or so), a typical map might have 60 or so doors, plats, trains, triggers. Then monsters and weapons come in, another 30 or so. (at least 2 (usually 3) models per monster, body model and head, plus any projectile models)

the main reason something wouldn't be added is that it would end up using yet more precache slots. They're very low as it is, and in a typical map, you wouldn't even be able to place a monster of every type.

a last thing to take into account would be that bsp models wouldn't have proper collision. If a mapper made the pieces too big it would clip into brushwork, and if it was too small, it would float over the ground (unless they were set to have 0 size, in which case, anything larger than the chest gib model wouldn't look very good).

most probably, the MoH engine was modified to support more model precaches, or parts where explosions took place with that method of rubble were short areas where they could change map to get back those precaches. i've never played the game, so i wouldn't know how it was done. 
How Many Edicts And Precaches Can Fitzquake Handle? 
Just wondering, because fitzquake just shits on every other engine imho. I am using FQ as the main engine for my current map, which should end up being pretty enormous by the time it is finished. I would really like to know how many ents etc. I can throw in.

Didn't know that brushmodels used precaches either. I presume triggers use only edicts, right? 
I think you made some more textures for quoth, right? Have they been released separately, or should I just rip them from the relevant maps?

Also, out of curiosty, who users hammer (pre HL2) for Q1 edting? I find wc1.6 nicer, despite the fact it doesn't have an accelerated 3d view and suffers from a weird problem where it sometimes confuses texture names with a _# extension. It's generally a lot more straigtforward to map with and tends to crash less (when it matters, 1.6 always crashes on shutdown after a long period of mapping). 
Triggers Use Up A Model 
The title really says it all. When quake loads the BSP, it precaches every bmodel in it automatically, before the QC gets a look in. So each trigger also counts towards the limit, which I'm pretty sure is 256, not 128. Still not that much. Now, it does seem a bit of a waste using up all these model precaches on models that are never seen. One way you can work around this is with a hack.

You can use the same bmodel for multiple entities in a map. So if you had several triggers that were all the same size(or could get away with being the same size), then you could make a dummy one of them in the standard brush based way, but centred on the origin. Then look at the entity data for the map to find out what modelindex it has, and at the same time delete this dummy entity. Finally make some point entities with
model *thatmodelindex
and all the properties of the trigger they replace. Because the dummy one was centred at the origin, you put the point entity where you want the trigger to be centred.

Nice idea in theory, but almost certainly a pain to actually do in a real map. At best, you'd want to test it in an engine that can handle more models, and then just reduce it down below the limit using this trick once it's finished. Even so, not fun to do. Perhaps a better solution would be to fix the QC that requires a model for a trigger. The model is largely a waste in the QC anyway. All it does is set the bounding box of the trigger to that of the model, collisions with the model don't happen at all. This is why all triggers are cuboids, regardless of how you build them in editor.

So I'm gonna go away and see if there's a way to make triggers without a model, I've got an idea, but I suspect it's a little more involved than what I have in mind. If I find a way I'll post it here. 
Ha Ha Ha 
There's me talking up the difficulty of a four line modification to the code. Oh well. Open subs.QC. Find the function InitTrigger. Replace the line
[q]setmodel (self, self.model); // set size and link into world[/q]
setsize(self, self.pos1, self.pos2);
setmodel (self, self.model);
// set size and link into world

Then you can make any trigger a point entity simply by filling out the minimum and maximum points of the trigger in pos1 and pos2 instead of giving it a model. pos1 and pos2 should be the absolute world coordinates, not relative to the entity. Not tested this extensively, but I can't see it going wrong. Have fun! 
nice one preach...

I had one alternative in mind, like a few standard trigger entity boxes in quoth, something like a cube 128x128x128 and a thin plate 256x32x256. If you put them into the fgd, it's easy to place them since you see the bounding box in worldcraft. I don't remember if rotation shows though.
Anyway, then you can have 100 triggers and it only uses one bmodel. Of course, you'd still use brush ones for custom shapes.
I don't remember about radiant, if it shows entity bounding boxes. 
Reviews Posted. 
I have posted my reviews of all 3 maps. Along with some ratings & comments on the Quoth/lost chapters new monsters:

the gug is awesome. :) 
fitzquake has increased max_edicts, but no increases to precache models or other related limits. 
precache model is 256 right? Sounds reasonable I guess, but maybe it could be increased in a future release of FQ? :)

Maybe it's ok then, but perhaps the next version of Quoth should feature Preaches additional code if it works - especially since triggers are AABBs anyway so the model is completely unnecessary.

I have never hit any model precache limit before, but I had ecit probs back in the old dosquake days. Presumably Kell and Necros have had probs at some time or another, but what about mappers making vanilla quake maps? CZG? 
my take on this is if you're making a map so large that you need to resort to ugly hacks like that, well, just split your map up. 
Is it really an ugly hack? Why does quake need to precache a model for something which can be definted by two points? Surely the code is ugly in the first place?

Still, if you think it's a crap hack then fair enough, I will try and fit it all into the regular number of slots.

Anyway, splitting the environment up will really spoil my design. I am really enjoying making the map atm, and I hope to make my "best map evar!" - at least in terms of layout, lighting and architecture (hopefully gameplay too, but god knows how that will turn out at this stage). It's supposed to be epic. The design is currently an underground city, but each building is like a separate level in itself. There are at least 3 of these buildings in a large cavern (which is kind of another level that links them) and some smaller buildings. I suppose I could split it, but then I couldn't have all the little links and secrets between sections.

Currently I have built about half of the library building, and that's pretty big already. I still have a long way to go, so maybe it's too early to go around asking about engine limits when I have only got a few thousand brushes placed, lit and textured. I am just excited because it is the first time in ages I have gotten into Quake mapping and started really having a good time.

I can send you some shots if you are interested (since it will be using Quoth ents when I get that far). 
it's nothing personal, dude. i just feel that the real solution to the problem is to change the engine itself, since that is the limit it imposes, not to try to work around the problem by shoehorning in a fix by making two seperate trigger entities.

on reflecting on it though, i guess it would be a good way to save on precaches, and isn't really hard to implement. since i know nearly jack-shit on engine code, i'll keep it in mind for later.
heh, maybe i caught a bit of the 'not invented here' bug. :P 
Polyp Skins 
is there a way to use the second polyp skin, as well, to have polyps in two different colors in a map? 
ok, I want to set the colour to red, but when I do ("color" - "5") tyrlight quits with an error saying that there aren't 3 values for color.

How do you get marshlights to work properly?

I thought color in tyrlight was set with "_color" anyway. Grr. is set with _color... AND
- Downgraded "not 3 values for color" to a warning for compatability with some QC mods."

Hmm... HELP! I'm using tyrlite 0.97 
Another Thing 
the info_screenshake doesn't seem to work. Maybe I didn't set it up correctly?

ltime 12
multiplier 2 
negike: no, you can't customize skins on any of the monsters

than: have no idea about the compiler thing... unless you need coloured lighting, use aguire's light program? (or does aguire's do coloured lighting too now?)

as for screenshake, not sure why it's not working except:
try using higher values for multiplier (10ish) and go from there
also, make sure that there is a direct link from the trigger to the info_screenshake. if a monster or lightning or anything other than the player triggers it, the screen won't shake, same like how centerprints won't print for the player unless he is the direct activator. 
cheers, the screenshake works now... 10 is a bit much though! 
Re: Screenshake (and Some Other Q's) 
You mentioned in the above post that the info_screenshake needs to be activated directly by the player for it to work. I have this set up and it works fine now, but surely there is a problem with coop. Will other players experience the screenshake?

What about the shake from the Gug?

Is it possible to implement screenshake that emenates from a point in the map and affects all nearby players?

I vaguely remember screenshake being used in Scourge (not sure, since it was a while since I last played it) and it also moved the player around a bit. I don't need this in particular, but were it a spawnflag, I would probably check it :)

Finally, I had a look in the Marcher txt file the other day and noticed Kinn mentioned something about entity grouping. I'm not sure, but I think it was a feature of the qc he was using. He said in the readme that it allowed the map to work on low capacity engines (i.e. not Aguire's GLQuake or DP). Do you know anything about this? Does Quoth use it?

Currently I am about 80% complete of the first large section of my map (basically the size of a fairly large level) and am wondering whether or not to just finish that section and release it as a level, or go ahead and proceed with the next large section (probably the same size again).

Currently I'm only at 6000 brushes (19,000 surfs after compile) so I have a bit more room in that respect, but probably not enough precache slots to add all the funcs I might need if I decide to double the size of the level.

I'm also debating whether or not to split the map up as you originally suggested, so that more people can play it, and it can be played in FitzQuake (as God intended!) It would be cool for the level to be one HUGE environment, and certainly more impressive to walk around, but I wonder if you were right in suggesting that I split it.

Maybe splitting it would allow me to take my mind of Q1 mapping for a while and do something more beneficial for my career :) 
you could try using the seamless level transition. it will carry your kills over across the maps, but other things like secrets and playing times won't, so it's not that greatest solution.

as for screenshake, i didn't really put much thought into it, tbh. it's just a minor atmosphere thing, so i hadn't even considered in coop.

the gug should shake all players though. 
Re: Entity Grouping 
actually, i never really understood what kinn was talking about for that, except for the horde spawn things.

so i don't think quoth does it, but maybe i inadvertantly did it, who knows... o.o 
It Was A Cvar... 
in his readme, Kinn says that... well, here's a quote:

Impulse 152: Toggle Entity Grouping

Entity grouping is ON by default; This enables a form of edict compression that allows the map to be playable in engines without increased MAX_EDICTS. It should have no visible effect on gameplay. If you turn entity grouping OFF, be warned; the map will only be loadable in high-capacity engines, and you will most likely suffer a performance hit. Requires a map restart.

Sounds interesting, whilst at the same time sounds like it won't help with precache ents at all.

I'm guessing that it's related to the monster spawning, as you say. Maybe monsters of the same type that are spawn triggered using the same targetname can be loaded without requiring an edict for each one until they are spawned. 
"v0.90 - Downgraded "not 3 values for color" to a warning for compatability with some QC mods."

Although I fixed that it v0.90, it looks like I fucked it up again in version 0.95. Easy to fix though - I'll see if I can get to it this weekend. 
Good Show! 
nice one, tyrann :) 
Fixed version of TyrLite is on now available on my site. 
While(Tyrann == TheDon) GiveBeer(largeGlass); 
Thanks, Tyrann. I will go back to using your wonderful program now - even though Aguire's light program isn't noticeably and better or worse :) 
Gug!, Plasma Gun 
Top work guys, Thanks. Love the gug, e1m1quoth and kell's test maps. (Haven't played the extra maps yet).

{..get down on my belly and beg mercy, as I have a criticism}

The plasma gun - am I missing something? It's a shitty model, animation and sound, and, umm, it looks like a penis. [[[Ikka's mod would fit in ~more~.. (and it never got overused in the first place)]]] 
I get this error when trying Quoth per the instructions. Quake launches, and then in a dialog box I get:

Quake Error
W_GetLumpinfo: inv_laser not found
Somehow you're not using the Quoth gfx.wad file (inside pak0), make sure that no other gfx file overrides it and that you're using the -hipnotic option. 
I'm Using -hipnotic 
But how do I find whether no other file is overriding it? It's all in it's own directory (Quoth), set up proper as far as I can tell. 
that gfx.wad is inside pak0 in the Quoth dir and that no other paks exist in that dir. What engine and cmd line are you using?

The error occurs when the engine requests a Hipnotic specific object in the gfx file due to the -hipnotic option. The std Q1 gfx doesn't contain that object.

If it still doesn't work, try another engine or make cmd line and cfgs as simple as possible. 
Something Desperately Needed In "Quoth2" 
One of the best things about Quake is the combat with weak enemies.

This is why the early maps are special like E1M1, E1M2, E1M3 and also why Quake takes away all your guns at when you return to the start map.

The WORST problem with multi-map packs is that usually you will have all the heavy weapons and therefore the map is packed with tougher monsters, which are often kind of boring to fight because it is only their hitpoints that makes them a challenge.

Some of the best single player maps use zombies in a very effective way. Even 1 zombie can be a real threat if you don't have a way to kill it.

Maybe something that could make Quoth more useful is having a worse kind of zombie, like a really rotted dark zombie, that is like a regular zombie (just a reskin) except it can't be killed except with Quad damage or has to be killed with the axe (more interesting and annoying, hehe) or it has to be squished with a map element.

Or maybe Quoth should have a way for a map author to remove some/all weapons at intermission somehow maybe with the ability to set an intermission "story" of what happened like ... "As you stared into the void that was this horrible place, you inadvertently knocked your rocket launcher off the ledge ..."

This would allow a subsequent map to not have to be loaded with the tougher monsters for at least a while allowing natural map progression to happen.

Anyway, just a thought. I personally think the later levels in Quake are somewhat repetitive and boring because I don't think the "tough" monsters again and again and again are very interesting to fight. 
Interesting Viewpoint 
I dont really agree because you can have progression with 'tougher' monsters too, although it would come from number and placement.

but interesting viewpoint. 
Rain/Snow ? 
There was a level of Nehahra that had a snow effect, and of course at least one of the Nehahra movie demos had a rain effect.

I'm sure those 2 effects require a engine modification and it's been a long time since so I don't recall if those effects were localized or actually affected the entire map.

Just throwing this out, part of me would really like to see things like localized fog, rain, snow and translucent glass be part of Quake.

/Although I know the argument about how those are standard Quake engine features, but neither is max_edicts > 600 or farclip > 4096. 
Neh Snow/Rain 
doesn't require custom engines, as you'd know if you'd tried playing Nehahra with my WinQuake ...

Just add the -nehahra option and try out e.g. neh3m3 for snow and neh3m4 for rain.

There are of course other things in Nehahra that require custom engines, but not those effects. 
also had rain on the second level. That worked in plain old dosquake :)

Glass can be faked in Quoth using water brushes with solid colour textures and then by using the entity that I forgot the name of that allows you to set console variables like r_wateralpha from within the game. There are a few other things that you need to be aware of, but making glass in this way isn't too bad. 
I guess I knew Zerstorer had rain ;)

I'll have to try -nehahra with Enhanced WinQuake and see what snow looks like in software out of curiosity. 
In Nehahra 
You can use the alpha key as well, which is an engine specific feature, but allows transparent entities - func_walls, enemies, whatever.

AguirRe's Nehahra engine also has an -id1 option to play the game in normal quake but under that engine, to maintain the extra visual effects. I think there's another engine that supports alpha keys as well.

Spose the problem is that anyone playing the map without an alpha supporting engine won't see the glass, just a solid brush. 
Well, Guys... 
I dont think its unreasonable in this day and age for a mapper to demand that players use specific engines to view their work!

I mean my last map used coloured lights, and some of the lights had a coloured source texture, i.e. a red light - people who choose to view the map with an engine which doesnt support coloured lights are silly :-P Especially if they then complain that the lights were crap, or looked silly with white light coming from a red light-source!!

The glass thing - fuck it man!! Make levels with windows, glass ceilings and everything, and honestly, as long as you document your engine choices properly, so that people have no excuses for not knowing that they were supposed to use engine "X" or "Y", then they have no right to complain about it!!! :D

Question: - Can you ad "r_wateralpha" "0.3" to the worldspawn?

Im pretty sure (havent fully experimented yet) that Quoth users can have their "info_player_start" inside a "trigger_once" which targets an "info_command", with "r_wateralpha" "0.3" so as to automatically start the player off in the level with transparent water activated.

Also - panes of glass - this works right?:

"classname" "func_wall"
".alpha" "0.3"

This doesnt require the water hack?

Also you could add the

".alpha" "0.3"

bit to a monster to give a ghostly effect?
(hehe - "effects" "4" would give a translucent glowing monster)

I sended Than's GlasTest by email.
It has a workaround from his use of transparant glass in Quake1. 
Thanks Madfox 
Yeah, I got that!! I'll have a look at it in a bit!! :D 
if you use metlslime's skip tool instead of tyrann's really old one, you shouldn't encounter problems with vis when trying to make glass from water brushes. Metl's tool works a charm, whilst Tyrann's was experimental and sometimes you ended up with very obvious problems. 
metlslime's skip tool is really working well ;) 
So JPL Is Using Glass Hack For His Glass? 
Is it even possible to use a ".alpha" key on brushmodels (or any models for that matter)?

Where did I get this from :-o ? 
It is possible to use alpha on func_wall for sure, maybe func_door (not sure), but it is not supported by all engines. However, using metlslime's skip tool is supported by most of enhanced engines. The r_wateralpha settings must be set, either in your cfg file, or in the map using Quoth's trigger_command/item_command entities... It's uo to you ;) 
So Its Just A Matter Of Going... 
...Bah! to weird engine users!

Surely it *could* look better if you can have some texturing on panes of glass, squeaky clean glass would look a bit wierd in a generally grubby quake environment, a slightly more 'textured' glass might look more realistic....

So I would ASSUME that FitzQuake, Darkplaces and AgurRe's engines all support ".alpha" keys, they seem to collectively support most stuff like this together...
I would also ASSUME that Tomaz/JoeQuake type engines dont.

Reckon That's It 
And you can apply alpha to anything - monsters, doors, whatever as long as it's an entity. Never tried it with pickups but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. 
You ASSUME too much, go read some readmes ... 
fitzquake doesn't, but the other two do (afaik) 
the glass hack works on every gl engine and at least one software engine (basically all that support r_wateralpha) whereas enhanced engine features only work with a few engines. There have been successful maps that have required the use of a particular engine (warp, nehahra) and if it really means a lot to you, you can go that route, but personally I like to try and do everything so that it is compatible with the widest possible range of engines. I am starting to get fed up of supporting software though, and dm3rmx didn't support the original id engines because it had too many entities in it. 
I think FitzQuake should be the reference engine for all mapper.. 
Yeah - I Wouldnt Wanna Make A Non-Fitz Map ! 
Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt :D

I like the look/feel of Fitz (just like quake really) and I l00ve the lit-file support and also the external texture thing. With me its all for the coloured lighting...

I find the documentation for Fitz to be a bit of a head stress, I find it hard to understand what it all means. I guess getting a feel for different engines is often a case of trail and error. As for the glass hack thing - it almost annoys me that you cant *quite* have your cake and eat it!! I mean Darkplaces would do *everything* but I guess its not a stable as Fitz...

Oh well - Skip util + waterbrushes 'ere we come... 
Wait until you play around with fog for some more headaches. Darkplaces' is just fantastic, the others are different or ugly. 
also need the alfa channel.

It grew drags on me untill they were really transparant, as in FimG the pictures would add the alphachannel, but didn't save them! I had a hard job to avoid a white screenblock. 
fitzquake should be the standard

Bah! to weird engine users

I see what you guys mean, but remember

a) not everyone uses Windows
b) DP runs on linux but is a bit resource-hungry
c) choice is good
d) does all this stuff work on Mac OSX and *BSD...?

As far as supporting software, I can see that it's not always practical, and it will slowly die. But today there are still laptops out there that have no working 3D hardware, so give it 2,3 more years and then I'd say it's safe enough to assume 95% of computers will be 3D capable. It's clear that software will eventually die.

It's OK IMO if mappers start dropping it.

But I'd hate to see Quake mapping go Windows-only with the possible exception of Darkplaces. The original Quake was cross-platform for a reason. Please try to think of others.

Major Linux GL engines are DP, tyr-glquake and Joequake.

There is also still Proquake, which Baker just took over from JPG and he's working to fix the Linux support he broke somewhere along the way :-)

- Darkplaces we all know, IIRC it also supports OSX.

- Tyr-glquake is a conservative GL engine, supports Windows/Linux/*BSD, and it would be easy enough to up the entity limits. It runs most mods and has a number of nice options. In a word, this is THE candidate for a more conservative cross-platform engine (after some maxentity tweaks.)

- Joequake is the only active Linux engine that supports Nehahra. The other is Qudos' dead port of nehquake-bjp. JQ is enjoyed by speedrunners it seems.

- Fruitz of Dojo, _the_ OSX port, is NOT crossplatform (just like some Windows ports...) so unfortunately, that makes it a bit hard to test your map in unless you own a Mac ;-) I guess Mac Quakers can blame themselves on this one. Their problem. 
Hold your breath, SleepwalkR is porting Fitzquake to crossplatform (SDL). Then we will be in eternal bliss.

Darkplaces is way too modern and bugfixed to classify as proper singleplayer quake engine. Joequake depends on that shitty fmod for sound (iirc). Tyr-glquake is nice but kinda buggy. And no-one needs Proquake, it's a multiplayer optimised engine. 
I don't really want to drag this argument up again, but the other day I loaded a map in another engine that had less of the awesome fixes metlslime added to FQ and all I could see were blurred textures, bland lighting, cracks on water, the geometry of the skybox and to top it off it didn't support widescreen, so everything was stretched :(

FQ made Quake feel alive again for me when most maps being released didn't work properly in software due to the slightly restrictive limits, and most GL engines were not concentrating on improving the engine so that SP maps could be enjoyed to the fullest.

So good luck to SleepwalkR with the SDL conversion of FQ, and I hope linux and mac users will enjoy playing with such a great little engine as much as I do. 
I guess the only thing I can say on the software/hardware-only engine subject is ... if you're going to abandon software users and require a specialized engine, please make sure that it's worth it.

What I mean by that is, make sure that whatever you're doing to your level that is going to shut out software renderers (translucency, huge edict counts, mega surfaces, etc), make sure that you can say with confidence that "Yes, this map NEEDS this".

I love Quake but I'm a traditionalist. I was never a fan of even GLQuake - I don't like the texture smoothing. I like raw pixels and chunky geometry in my Quaking.

Maybe that makes me a nutbar but that's where I'm at. :)

We software users love to play new maps as much as the hardware-only specialized engine guys do. Don't shut us out unnecessarily. 
Software Quake 
Yeah, there are some purists who like it, and that's OK, but they should really use a 'modern' software engine then, like aguirRe's enhanced Winquake or the one that comes with Tyrquake. 
Edicts - Software 

I think that the only limit which can really be justified breaking is edicts. 600 just isnt quite enough! If your carefull with your brushwork, you can make massive maps, with 64 lightmaps, 32k marksurfaces etc, just literally tailor the map to its maximum within these hard limits.

Isnt there a JoeQuake software renderer which allows more than 600 edicts?

If FitzQuake is successfully ported to OS X then that engine supports more than 600 edicts, but its a GLQuake engine...

I just think that its possible to make some really great maps, which dont require Darkplaces/AguirRe's GLQuake to run, but edicts are the only thing which holds mappers back from fully realising the potential of the original software engine paramaters... 
Well, I'm a Mac user so until SleepwalkR gets done with FitzQuake I can't just switch engines willy nilly. :) I like software so this works for me at the moment.

Just to add some context to my preferences.

However, if his port of FitzQuake supports the ability to have the game render the same as the software renderer (pixelated, monochrome lighting, etc) then I'll definitely use it! 
r_overbright 1
r_oldwater 0
r_oldsky 0
gl_texturemode gl_nearest 
Nice! Now I just need an engine on OSX that will support higher edict counts and such. :) 
And Ofc 
gl_flashblend 0
I don't know why that is on by default 
FitzQuake Does Support Hight Edict Counts!! 
Or do you mean another engine/one which is already availiable...

Fitzquake can be made to handle (I think) 4000 - odd edicts!! It just requires a console command. Edict limit can be changed with each map loaded!

Its like the glass thing - I wouldnt want to use brushmodel transparency for a map if it didnt work in FitzQuake, which it DOESNT. If I made a map with transparent brushmodels and coloured lights, the only engine I could really use would be Darkplaces, and I really wouldnt want to make a DP-only map!! :D

As for software 'style' in Fitz, what czg said!!

gl_texturemode (1-6) - different effects, one is definately pixelated textures...

:D :D 
Yep, that sounds great!

Hurry up, SleepwalkR. :) 
Fitzquake Software Emulation 
I took some shots from my setup of a few maps. (WIP map) (gmsp3) (dm3rmx) (Quoth start) (WIP map) (WIP map)

btw, you might want to check out gmsp3, dm3rmx and quoth if you have been away from Quake for a long time and haven't played them. There are tons more maps that have been released in the past 5 years or so that come highly recommended. I won't mention any in particular because there are so many fucking great maps that I wouldn't like to pick a favourite.

...although I did pick some here: 
Jpeg Compression 
dunno if it's actually doing some harm to those absolutely deliciously crisp pixels!

I think old CRT:s did a bit of natural smoothing but with the hard image of the LCD:s, the pixelity gets a bit too strong for me at times.

Also if one is a pure traditionalist, can one really play quake with an optical mouse? I think the rough rolling of the ball is an important part of the classic quake experience, that is, if you're not a keyboard player.

Just kidding. 
Hey, for me, part of Quake is unfiltered texels. YMMV! Heh. 
Try gl_nearest_mipmap_nearest, mipmapping does help and software quake had it too!

Also, you can use anisotropic filtering with any texture mode, not just trilinear. So you could experiment with gl_nearest and maxed-out anisotropy, for example.

Personal opinion: I play with trilinear and anisotropic filtering, but I do recognize that trilinear comes at a cost -- the swimming, sparkling, moire effects of nearest filtering go away, but at the cost of more averaged/blended color on the screen and less of the pure texel colors. With nearest filtering, you get a scene full of the actual texture colors, which tend to be more vivid. 
Willem Et Al 
Willem, I also use software right now, because I'm on one of the mentioned older laptops. I will switch to GL though ASAP, I tested it using mesa. I have noticed the difference in lighting, but "what czg said". It looks as if TQ, JQ and PQ (Proquake can be used for singleplayer, and if I'm not mistaken Baker would gladly extend some limits or is already doing so) aren't going to drop software support anytime soon.

The Fitzquake sdl thing sounds great. ^^ If that happens, I'll radically stop all bitching :-E

I hope I didn't come off again like I demanded anything, I was just sayin'.

Concerning TQ, things are being fixed, for example breakfast.bsp produces no more blah_overflow messages even on skill2. And a nice manpage is in the works ;-)

Joequake's FMOD dependency: The only place where fmod is included is in nehahra.c :-( That's the only reason. Since only the GL client includes nehahra support, software does NOT depend on FMOD (anyway, isn't it a simple matter of "emerge fmod" or "apt-get install fmod"?)

The "problem" (*g*) is that Joe didn't think of #undefining Nehahra support, you have no choice if you want it or not. But hey, it plays Nehahra! (at least rudimentary)

He probably ripped that out of Nehquake and the FMOD stuff just came with it.

edicts limit: I'd dare to quietly say that MAX_STATIC_ENTITIES is rather easy to break even in small maps (ex. TPOF) so edicts is not everything. Torches! :-D 
Floating Crate-a-rama 
WIP those maps into releases, word. 
2 Cents 
Fruitz of Dojo, _the_ OSX port, is NOT crossplatform (just like some Windows ports...) so unfortunately, that makes it a bit hard to test your map in unless you own a Mac ;-) I guess Mac Quakers can blame themselves on this one. Their problem.

I don't understand what you mean by this, goldenboy. The Fruitz of Dojo port is straight-up vanilla glquake, how is that not cross-platform? Of course they didn't make a PC version, that was id software's job.

Personally, I prefer pOx's mac glquake ports ( , and ), as they feel more like a mac application and do some minor things better like mouse smoothing and anisotropic filtering. He also ported the Nehahra engine, which I often enjoy using, as it has a good mix of quake faithfulness and well placed new features (skyboxes, colored dynamic lights, fog). I think it has some raised entity limits too. However I should note that pOx's glquake engines were coded in Carbon, not Cocoa, so you guys on Intel/Leopard machines might not be able to run them. 
The Fruitz of Dojo port is straight-up vanilla glquake

OK. They don't say on the site what it actually is, and in how far it was changed or had stuff added. They just say "Requirements: Mac OS X."

Does the same source compile on Linux and Windows? That's what I meant. :-) 
I'd Expect The Fruitz Code To Compile On Win/linux 
But I've never tried. I read through the diff once though, and all the changes are really minor, apart from the addition of os x video and sound code. 
Then I apologize. I'll download it and try to compile.

If those non-DP Mac clients are really just Macified GLquake, that would mean we'd have to keep to the limits while mapping, or they won't run the maps.

Ah Yes, That's True 
but raising the edicts limit is probably the most useful thing, and dead easy. 
Raising Limits 
They would have to do that, though. ;-) 
Just Started Playing Quoth 
after havin' a great time with arcanum, i've now started quoth.

i need to ask about playing music files from whatever folders.

in arcanum it is:
id1/music/track03 (etc.)

in quake 1 it is:
id1/sound/cdtracks/track03 (or whatever)

does anyone know the way to do this in quoth? 
well, cd music has nothing to do with the mods, so it is up to whatever engine you use. it just depends on what engine you're using.
also, it depends on if the maps have a track set in their worldspawn (the 'sound' key).
if you hear no music but have the music installed, then likely the map doesn't have any set. :( 
Music In QS/Quoth 
i just play user maps from quaddicted in Quakespasm.

if there are /ent or .bsp files, i can open them in text edit (is that 'notepad' on windows?) and see what the 'sound' key is.

quoth doesn't have bsp/ent files, only pak files, and i cannot open them on my mac atm.

i have worked out that QS just uses:
id1/music/track01.wav (etc.)

e1m1 from quoth responds to track06, so, i guess, its 'sounds' key is '6'.

could you tell me if i can change the 'sounds' key?
if i need to get into quoth's pak files to do it, i'm screwed!

i have tried to open other bsp/ent files and change the 'sounds' key from, say, '6' to '2', but it never works.
i gather i am doing something wrong. 
Get the utility called Qped. Then you can open .pak files, which are basically just file archives containing, wavs, mdls, bsps, etc. The internal structure mirrors just having directors like id1/maps, etc. Then you can modify whatever you want with ent/bsp files.

Though, doesn't your engine have a "play (filename)" music command?

Standardization would be so good - heh. 
one more thing, you'll want a qbsp version to put the modified entities back into the map, at least in some engines. You just have to recompile it with -onlyents option it never takes more than 1 second. Damn I'm pretty bad at this explaining shit. And I'm going to bed pretty soon too - lol - if no one has said anything better by tomorrow I'll try to do better. 
that's cool,

it looks as though this may be quite complicated, but then maybe not (cracks knuckles meaningfully!)

i'll drop by 2moro to see what we can do about this. 
Host_error: Cannot Find Maps Map/e1m3quoth.bsp 
i'm at a loss, really.

i have just played the first two episodes no problem.

any ideas? 
It Doesn't Exist Yet... 
sheee-it, you'll need the 3 separate RMQ demos and plenty of other user remakes... but there's no unified-remade-awesome-quakeness, just yet.

They are making a REMAKEQUAKE mod that inludes remakes of every single Q1 map. But in their 3 demos they have just released a few maps at a few stages. Surely you can't expect to magically have a new map every map you pass now. 

again, i don't really know how this all works.

in my dumb naivety, i assumed quoth was a collection of maps/or maybe one episode containing some maps, like arcanum. i didn't know otherwise. it didn't say on the Quaddicted page that it was a demo. 
I updated that page. Thanks, such input is very helpful. It is hard to imagine being new to all this if you have been in the scene for so long (and I am a newbie compared to others). 
Nah, That's Cool Spirit! 
i'm a man in my 30's, but STILL making mistakes!

@ Tronym:

trust me. if i knew they were demos, i wouldn't have made the confused post wondering where map 3 was. 
it's awesome to know new people are still interested.

Quoth is a package of custom content, but it only includes a few maps, it's not a self-contained episode or anything like that, the point of it was to encourage mappers to use its features, which they absolutely did, but each Quoth map needs to be run by itself, these maps weren't planned in some larger context (unlike RemakeQuake). So basically with Quoth you can play a ton of individual maps, many of which are great. My suggestion for a starting place is Hrimfaxi's "Breakfast At Twilight." 
an easy way to find maps for quoth is to use quaddicted. go to the maps section: and use 'quoth' as the filter. 
@ Tronym: That's OK! 
i will certainly heed yer advice, and i will check out the 'b.o.t' map tonight. 
@ Necros: I'm Already There! 

i went over to Quaddicted & filtered the maps by quoth, and found plenty to go through.

regardless og quoth, i had already planned to go through the whole quaddicted map database, filtered by 'rating'. that's gonna take a loong time, but fun 'n' frolics along the way! 
It's Been 10 Years 
Brilliant releases from a great year for Q1SP.
And ever since, thanks to all who worked for Quoth.

Nigthmare 100% demo of e1m1quoth and e1m2quoth:
Demos for all the Quoth test maps:

First&second runs on the first three Quoth maps(skill2):

(The above demos require Quoth2.2.)

And let's not forget about the Chapters pack,
the first maps to feature Quoth monsters.

Demos for all test maps, a demo of the finale
and a 100%demo for my favourite map in the pack:

Kell & necros and Preach - you deserve the highest praise.
I agree with Drew: 'We need a Quoth icon!' 
10 Years 
And still no gauntdrop. 
the gauntdrop / cc attack would complete that enemy.

Light my candle, I still have the qc.
I'm a bad coder, I can only loose. 
Quoth FGD 
Just dropping this link here because an earlier link to the Quoth FGD is broken but this thread still tops the Google search for Quoth FGD.

You're welcome, future Quoth mapper and/or future me. 
What I really would like to know if there's a quoth.qc availabe.
I've got one from the Quoth2, but everytime I ask fteqcgui to take a look at it I drown in the error.log.

As I said, I'm a bad coder, but would like to try new things with it after burning my fingers on too hot spagethi code.

Like being attacked by a purple gauntdrop. 
Do you mind if I use Quoth in my mod? All of it. Well enemies, items, and weapons that is. I managed to decompile the 2.1 progs.dat. 
I Don't Think Kell Visits Here Anymore 
But then, like I mentioned in the Noir thread, the idea of toolbox mods like Quoth and AD is that they enable new maps to NOT have all the mod stuff included in the release, because the base material is already installed on the user's system. So one doesn't have to install the same mod all over again with every new map. 
I think Qmaster meant using Quoth assets in his own mod. Good luck with that! Sock waited a looooong time and pretty much harassed the Quoth creators to finally get the authorization to use only SOME Quoth monsters in AD. The problem with Quoth is that it's not open source. AD is, so you'd better grab what you need from there instead. Also, Seven's SMC has some pretty cool additional monsters so you may want to look into it as well. 
The Better Question Would Be 
Preach do you mind? I mean after all I won't have all the great new 2.2 features. 
Since the thread was bumped, I'll ask a question here. Maybe someone who frequents this forum knows what's going on.

I was looking into making a small model patch for Quoth, and discovered a strange set of weapon models whose names start with "c_". These models seem to combine features of their respective view and pickup models in one mesh/skin.

At first I thought it was just cruft, but then I played the maps bundled with Quoth to discover that the medieval one enables these models (overriding my replacements). Moreso, the hammer seems to use the combined model by default.

The question is: what's the point? The models are about as ugly and broken as the stock ones, in some cases being even worse - the SSG is hideous when viewed as a pickup model. Making replacements for these is gonna be unpleasant as well. 
Scroll down, you'll see it:

Is that it? 
Yes. Thanks. 
Might Be Putting On My Bullseye T-shirt Here But... 
I think I'll just borrow all of Quoth 2.1 anyway. I'll credit it for sure. I'm not a plagiarist, but I'll infringe every copyright I come across simply because it was on the internet. If it's downloadable, it's public domain right? (lol no. it's not. but I don't really care and neither do Quake players)

Ahh heck I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't. 
@dwere Are you making a "guns of okayishness" pack for Quoth?

@Qmaster If you do that, you're gonna get burned by the community. They don't like modders who "steal" from them without consent. Ask XOlve ("author" of the Epsilon build), he could tell you all about it. 
Are you making a "guns of okayishness" pack for Quoth?

Not yet and not exactly. Unlike the official releases, Quoth has a severe fullbright problem, which is easy to fix (if dull), but is out of scope of a weapon mod. So I don't know if it's gonna be a part of the goo pack or it's gonna be something standalone.

Of the two new weapons only the hammer requires attention, as far as I can see. But the fact that Quoth has its own set of stock-like models complicates things quite a bit. I've seen them being used in at least one more map. 
Keep up the good work! 
If a map sets the model-saving flag, a client can override it by setting "scratch1 1" in console or config. So you can just replace the stock models (and the plasma gun too) and recommend players use that setting in their config (and an engine with increased model limits). 
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