I guess I knew Zerstorer had rain ;)

I'll have to try -nehahra with Enhanced WinQuake and see what snow looks like in software out of curiosity. 

You can use the alpha key as well, which is an engine specific feature, but allows transparent entities - func_walls, enemies, whatever.

AguirRe's Nehahra engine also has an -id1 option to play the game in normal quake but under that engine, to maintain the extra visual effects. I think there's another engine that supports alpha keys as well.

Spose the problem is that anyone playing the map without an alpha supporting engine won't see the glass, just a solid brush. 

I dont think its unreasonable in this day and age for a mapper to demand that players use specific engines to view their work!

I mean my last map used coloured lights, and some of the lights had a coloured source texture, i.e. a red light - people who choose to view the map with an engine which doesnt support coloured lights are silly :-P Especially if they then complain that the lights were crap, or looked silly with white light coming from a red light-source!!

The glass thing - fuck it man!! Make levels with windows, glass ceilings and everything, and honestly, as long as you document your engine choices properly, so that people have no excuses for not knowing that they were supposed to use engine "X" or "Y", then they have no right to complain about it!!! :D

Question: - Can you ad "r_wateralpha" "0.3" to the worldspawn?

Im pretty sure (havent fully experimented yet) that Quoth users can have their "info_player_start" inside a "trigger_once" which targets an "info_command", with "r_wateralpha" "0.3" so as to automatically start the player off in the level with transparent water activated.

Also - panes of glass - this works right?:

"classname" "func_wall"
".alpha" "0.3"

This doesnt require the water hack?

Also you could add the

".alpha" "0.3"


bit to a monster to give a ghostly effect?
(hehe - "effects" "4" would give a translucent glowing monster)

:D 

I sended Than's GlasTest by email.
It has a workaround from his use of transparant glass in Quake1. 

Yeah, I got that!! I'll have a look at it in a bit!! :D 

if you use metlslime's skip tool instead of tyrann's really old one, you shouldn't encounter problems with vis when trying to make glass from water brushes. Metl's tool works a charm, whilst Tyrann's was experimental and sometimes you ended up with very obvious problems. 

metlslime's skip tool is really working well ;) 

Is it even possible to use a ".alpha" key on brushmodels (or any models for that matter)?

Where did I get this from :-o ? 

It is possible to use alpha on func_wall for sure, maybe func_door (not sure), but it is not supported by all engines. However, using metlslime's skip tool is supported by most of enhanced engines. The r_wateralpha settings must be set, either in your cfg file, or in the map using Quoth's trigger_command/item_command entities... It's uo to you ;) 

...Bah! to weird engine users!

Surely it *could* look better if you can have some texturing on panes of glass, squeaky clean glass would look a bit wierd in a generally grubby quake environment, a slightly more 'textured' glass might look more realistic....

So I would ASSUME that FitzQuake, Darkplaces and AgurRe's engines all support ".alpha" keys, they seem to collectively support most stuff like this together...
I would also ASSUME that Tomaz/JoeQuake type engines dont.

??? 

And you can apply alpha to anything - monsters, doors, whatever as long as it's an entity. Never tried it with pickups but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. 

You ASSUME too much, go read some readmes ... 

fitzquake doesn't, but the other two do (afaik) 

the glass hack works on every gl engine and at least one software engine (basically all that support r_wateralpha) whereas enhanced engine features only work with a few engines. There have been successful maps that have required the use of a particular engine (warp, nehahra) and if it really means a lot to you, you can go that route, but personally I like to try and do everything so that it is compatible with the widest possible range of engines. I am starting to get fed up of supporting software though, and dm3rmx didn't support the original id engines because it had too many entities in it. 

I think FitzQuake should be the reference engine for all mapper.. 

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt :D

I like the look/feel of Fitz (just like quake really) and I l00ve the lit-file support and also the external texture thing. With me its all for the coloured lighting...

I find the documentation for Fitz to be a bit of a head stress, I find it hard to understand what it all means. I guess getting a feel for different engines is often a case of trail and error. As for the glass hack thing - it almost annoys me that you cant *quite* have your cake and eat it!! I mean Darkplaces would do *everything* but I guess its not a stable as Fitz...

Oh well - Skip util + waterbrushes 'ere we come... 

Wait until you play around with fog for some more headaches. Darkplaces' is just fantastic, the others are different or ugly. 

also need the alfa channel.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/drags.gif

It grew drags on me untill they were really transparant, as in FimG the pictures would add the alphachannel, but didn't save them! I had a hard job to avoid a white screenblock. 

fitzquake should be the standard

Bah! to weird engine users

I see what you guys mean, but remember

a) not everyone uses Windows
b) DP runs on linux but is a bit resource-hungry
c) choice is good
d) does all this stuff work on Mac OSX and *BSD...?

As far as supporting software, I can see that it's not always practical, and it will slowly die. But today there are still laptops out there that have no working 3D hardware, so give it 2,3 more years and then I'd say it's safe enough to assume 95% of computers will be 3D capable. It's clear that software will eventually die.

It's OK IMO if mappers start dropping it.

But I'd hate to see Quake mapping go Windows-only with the possible exception of Darkplaces. The original Quake was cross-platform for a reason. Please try to think of others.

Major Linux GL engines are DP, tyr-glquake and Joequake.

There is also still Proquake, which Baker just took over from JPG and he's working to fix the Linux support he broke somewhere along the way :-)

- Darkplaces we all know, IIRC it also supports OSX.

- Tyr-glquake is a conservative GL engine, supports Windows/Linux/*BSD, and it would be easy enough to up the entity limits. It runs most mods and has a number of nice options. In a word, this is THE candidate for a more conservative cross-platform engine (after some maxentity tweaks.)

- Joequake is the only active Linux engine that supports Nehahra. The other is Qudos' dead port of nehquake-bjp. JQ is enjoyed by speedrunners it seems.

- Fruitz of Dojo, _the_ OSX port, is NOT crossplatform (just like some Windows ports...) so unfortunately, that makes it a bit hard to test your map in unless you own a Mac ;-) I guess Mac Quakers can blame themselves on this one. Their problem. 

Hold your breath, SleepwalkR is porting Fitzquake to crossplatform (SDL). Then we will be in eternal bliss.

Darkplaces is way too modern and bugfixed to classify as proper singleplayer quake engine. Joequake depends on that shitty fmod for sound (iirc). Tyr-glquake is nice but kinda buggy. And no-one needs Proquake, it's a multiplayer optimised engine. 

I don't really want to drag this argument up again, but the other day I loaded a map in another engine that had less of the awesome fixes metlslime added to FQ and all I could see were blurred textures, bland lighting, cracks on water, the geometry of the skybox and to top it off it didn't support widescreen, so everything was stretched :(

FQ made Quake feel alive again for me when most maps being released didn't work properly in software due to the slightly restrictive limits, and most GL engines were not concentrating on improving the engine so that SP maps could be enjoyed to the fullest.

So good luck to SleepwalkR with the SDL conversion of FQ, and I hope linux and mac users will enjoy playing with such a great little engine as much as I do. 

I guess the only thing I can say on the software/hardware-only engine subject is ... if you're going to abandon software users and require a specialized engine, please make sure that it's worth it.

What I mean by that is, make sure that whatever you're doing to your level that is going to shut out software renderers (translucency, huge edict counts, mega surfaces, etc), make sure that you can say with confidence that "Yes, this map NEEDS this".

I love Quake but I'm a traditionalist. I was never a fan of even GLQuake - I don't like the texture smoothing. I like raw pixels and chunky geometry in my Quaking.

Maybe that makes me a nutbar but that's where I'm at. :)

We software users love to play new maps as much as the hardware-only specialized engine guys do. Don't shut us out unnecessarily. 

Yeah, there are some purists who like it, and that's OK, but they should really use a 'modern' software engine then, like aguirRe's enhanced Winquake or the one that comes with Tyrquake. 

Edicts

I think that the only limit which can really be justified breaking is edicts. 600 just isnt quite enough! If your carefull with your brushwork, you can make massive maps, with 64 lightmaps, 32k marksurfaces etc, just literally tailor the map to its maximum within these hard limits.

Isnt there a JoeQuake software renderer which allows more than 600 edicts?

If FitzQuake is successfully ported to OS X then that engine supports more than 600 edicts, but its a GLQuake engine...

I just think that its possible to make some really great maps, which dont require Darkplaces/AguirRe's GLQuake to run, but edicts are the only thing which holds mappers back from fully realising the potential of the original software engine paramaters... 

Well, I'm a Mac user so until SleepwalkR gets done with FitzQuake I can't just switch engines willy nilly. :) I like software so this works for me at the moment.

Just to add some context to my preferences.

However, if his port of FitzQuake supports the ability to have the game render the same as the software renderer (pixelated, monochrome lighting, etc) then I'll definitely use it!