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Hangover Devastation - SP Level For Quake By Ankh
Here is my second Quake map. Enjoy!

Screenshots:
http://republika.pl/quake_1/hdn1.html
http://republika.pl/quake_1/hdn2.html
http://republika.pl/quake_1/hdn4.html

More screenshots:
http://republika.pl/quake_1/index.html

Download:
http://republika.pl/quake_1/hdn.zip
http://www.quaddicted.com/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,937/

There is a download limit on my web page and you will be blocked if it is exceeded :( Can someone mirror the zip file for some time after release?
Mirrorage 
http://starship.python.net/crew/mwh/hdn.zip

It can stay there as long as you like.

Screenies look great, no time to play it now :( 
Ankh 
As I already told you during the beta test sessions, this map is very cool, I had a lot of fun playing it. I think the skybox fits very well with the map. Good choice ! Architecture is very good, and texture choice (particularly the contrast between blue stones and red metal) is excellent. Lightning effects are good as well, and gameplay is never boring....
Godd work, I will look forward to your next map for sure ! 
An Additional Mirror 
An Additional Additional Mirror 
Really Cool Map. 
Although the textures (mainly the blue walls and red trim) sorta got on my nerves. However, the layout was really nice, and the architecture was outstanding. Nice job, Ankh =D 
Yet Another Mirror 
Very Nice Map Ankh 
impressive stuff. Quite moody and atmospheric and the skybox adds a lot to it. Not too much of a fan of the layout but its still quite a blast to play and looks impressive. 
Speedrun 
Do anyone know, is there is any speed demos of this map? 
Its 
Going to take some time to build up some speed first.

Maybe by tommorrow someone will have the layout mastered.

I haven't finished it, but its proving to be an entertaining level so far, Ankh. 
Shellaur... 
here's a quick speedrun for you, 24 secs, you get the route idea.

http://hem.bredband.net/b211256/demos/hdn_024.dz 
Great Map 
I really enjoyed it. I was pretty chuffed with myself for getting the hidden quad, and it sure made things easier. The map is much better on hard, and looked great in Joequake.

I'll play it again tonight I think. :) 
Yay 
Very nice map Ankh, I quite enjoyed it. =) 
 
great map ankh :) real fun and hard is real hard...man what a feast!!! 
Great Stuff... 
It had good gameplay and good architecture throughout with a couple of great set pieces, e.g. Scrags funneling down a long hallway and the final door area looking really good.

I wasn't even put off by any of the read and blue texture mix at all :)

It did suffer slightly for lack of ammo in some places and it had a few genuinely odd moments -- is that really an outhouse that you start in? If so, don't you think the seat is somewhat large? ;p

Also, I managed to find 4 out of 6 secrets and flew around to the rest, but I still haven't a clue to how I was supposed to reach them in the first place. Maybe you could give us a few hints, like how the hell do you get the Pent with the secret message?

Anyway, great work, Ankh -- you should be very proud of this one!!! 
/me Is Proud :) 
Generic: yes, it is an Ogre outhouse and as everybody knows ogres have a big fat ass, much bigger than the quake guy's :) So you have to be very careful when using it :)

There are 6 regular secrets, all can be reached by standard movements. There are also some hidden places and you have to be very agile to reach them (one is maybe the quad found by Megazoid). And there is the Pent. You have to shoot 4 evil faces to get it.

About speedruns: the run can be done in a few different ways. Maybe lodis foud already the best route. I'm really waiting for a 100% demo. There are 3 quads you know, and 1000 routes :)

Thanks for the warm feedback so far. Also thanks for mirroring the file. My site was down for 5 times now during last 20h. Maybe a moderator could add the quaddicted link to my initial post? 
Ankh 
done 
Mean Level. 
Obviously above average. Great layout. Great gameplay... keeps you on the edge. A huge improvement on your previous level, great stuff!!!
There are a number of things to be said, in my opinion:
Overall strange feeling... First impression is of a HUGE mutha, and more so as you progress... but as you face the lava gateway, you'd expect to be teleported to another section and have lots of carnage ahead... Then you look at monster count and realize you've come to the end.. strange feeling... first time it occurred to me.

Secrets and items placement is a bit strange, most of them are useless, because you get to get them when you're already done with the monsters, like the YA, there are a lot of items that are not marked as secrets (and have no use by the time you get them) but seem to be more of an encouragement at trying trick jumping (final quad, pool on rooftop). These would be great if you either had the chance to use them or (as is the case for the RL at the end) the level was part of an episode.
Some secrets are very hard to come by, even and I'm not sure if the route i followed is the one you meant...

Anyway, these are just 1st run impressions... Played on normal... Only got 78/86 monsters, and did not manage to find the last "evil face" to get the pent, guess that spawned some more...

Maybe later I'll record a 1st hard run and send it to someone who can mirror it, being the Silent a poor sap without a site to host things on...

All in all, keep it up... it's agreat piece!!!! 
Speedrun 
I cleaned it up a bit and got 22 secs
http://hem.bredband.net/b211256/demos/hdn_022.dz

as you can see from the decimals 0:21 isn't far off and I guess 0:20 or 0:19 would be optimal with this route.

anyway, this map is sexy. I want it to have my babies. Great work ankh! 
Really Impressed... 
I'm going to test it today
The brushwork is really nice. Textures are beautifull. The ambience is really good.
And I love the apocalyptic sky.
I'm glad to test it. 
Fun, Challenging, Goodlooking 
Frantic beginning, very good use of vores through the entire map, though The Silent is right, after the big outdoor area I too was expecting even more epic to come, but that was not really a disappointment(great sky box also).

The secrets are generally very fun and very doable with careful observing, except that one "vore lift" leading to ammo/health, it lowers only once and the stairs lower only when touching the edge of the platform, annoyed me a bit..

Great map Ankh and also great demos lodis :) 
Demo =) 
only 2 secrets in skill 0 =(
and 52 /61 monsters ! ! !

http://www.planetquake.com/here/herehdn.dem 
 
Thanks for comments.

Siewolf: the vore lift can be lowered more than once, you just have to find the button, and you don't have to stand on the edge of the platform for the stairs to show up. If you have downloaded qdqstats you can use "impulse 111" to see the triggers. Thanks for the demo. I will watch it when I'm at home.

Lodis: cool demos. I wasn't expecting the ER time to be below 23s.

Here: thanks for the demo, I like watching demos :)

The Silent: The RL, YA secret and hidden places are designed rather for speedrunners than normal players. I hope I will see some speedrunning action with 100% demos. If you play the map for a second time you will find all secrets very usefull. Even the last YA can be usefull for those who want to do some rocket jumps to explore some more places.

First I wanted to design the end a bit different, without a teleport. I wanted to make the ending behind the door something like the e2m2. But after some trying I gave up. Also I didn't want the map to have more than 100 monsters, and adding another big fight at the end would make 120+ monsters. I also don't like teleporting big numbers of monsters too much. So the end is as it is. You can dose the fight to acomplish your needs if you are carefull. Also while playing the map you can always escape in any dangerous situation and then come back to kill the monsters one by one. In my opinion though you should stand there as a man and kill everything on the place without escaping :)
I think that the map plays the best on hard skill. There is simply more action and more fun. But you may consider playing normal skill for the first time and after that try hard skill. Ammo and health is the same in all skills.
Oh, and don't complain about ammo shortage. There is a GL and you have to use it :) 
Nice Work 
good length, fun combat, solid theme. 
Yes, 
nice map.
although i haven't played it again, i think you should have left the vore below the button on normal skill, as the hell knight doesn't make up for it.

the trick jumping compability (with the additional items) is a nice feature that i haven't seen very often in other maps. of course, i can't use it as intended, so i'm expecting a proper 100% demo, too. ;) 
:) 
well... i only saw some screenshots but i can say this thats nice map :> i will look for cd with Q1 and play map as soon as posible :)

pozdrawiam :) 
I Love Quake 
nice screens. the blood running down the stone pavers... i like that a whole lot. 
The Fifth Time I Played It 
I managed to survive for a whole five minutes and six seconds. 
Awesome Improvement... 
...as already stated,

Plus side:
- Solid theme garnered from a variety of disparate sources. Often hard to pull off, but well executed in this level
- excellent use of water
- excellent use of vores (I played normal)
- I soon clicked that ammo distribution meant I had to make use of the GL early, a nice device to challenge normal weapon usage patterns
- the bloody texture at the end was great
- sky box was well implemented
- the "return to previously seen but inaccessible" sections worked well
- having the rails behind the Ogre dunny angled just right for a player to climb with care was beautiful.

Some downs:
- once one got past the gold door, too much of the combat involved triggering monsters then luring them back to the lift area so one could sit up in the lift section and pump them wuth impugnity
- texture misalignment, especially brickwork in the high sections...angled bricks on one face and straight aligned brickwork on another. Also, large brickwork on suspended walls with small angled brickwork on the underside visible from water. Why not "render" some surfaces where it's difficult to match texture lines. One door-jam was out of wack too.

Fave bit:
- finding the LOTR reference!!! 
After Some Testing... 
The reason I had trouble with this map is that I couldn't get the quicksave function to work. It kept producing corrupted save files. If I reinstall Quake, saving works fine... until I load hdn.bsp, at which point saving is ruined both for this map and for all others. wtf. 
Strange 
I can't help much here. We need aguirRe :)
What quake client are you using? Are you using a non-standard progs file maybe? I have never observed such behavior and no one of the testers reported something like this. 
HRmmmm.... 
it works if I run a clean install and then copy hdn.bsp to the new maps directory (should have done that originally... at first I was just typing map ../../../quakex/id1/maps/hdn). So presumably there's SOMEthing in my original quake directory screwing everything up. I'd go searching for whatever it is if it weren't just easier to use the new installation for everything ;P 
I Take It Back 
even when copying the map file into a clean install it still corrupts all my save files. 
Save Game Troubles 
The common causes are the ones I've mentioned in my ToolTips; newlines in title or various overflow issues. Since the former isn't the case here, it's either overflow or some other problem. I need more info to comment on it. 
What's The Command Line Switch 
to dump all console output? 
It's 
-condebug, also add +developer 1 for more info. 
Umm No 
what he's asking for is condump blah where blah is the name of the text file iirc 
Well 
he asked for the "command line switch", which AFAIK is -condebug
Oh Right 
 
Mirror/host 
Well, that's what Quaddicted is for. ;)
Haven't played the map yet but I'm looking forward to it 
I liked this level a lot. I thought the blue with red trim and some wood worked quite well - I had "evil monastery" in the back of my head the whole level.

I especially liked the Hellknights jumping out of the towers near the privy. 
Finally... 
not that anybody cares but I figured it out. It was something in my old config.cfg... maybe a missing quote mark or my runequake binds. Either way... Q1 actually works now.... Now to play this thing :P 
Okay That Was Bloody Awesome 
good architecture, *excellent* monster placement with all the enemies having maximum effect... admittedly I survived the first time through just because I was lucky...

demo for the curious
http://www.suspenlute.com/stuff/hdn_fern.dz 
Another HUUGE Map 
ankh, this level looks nice and I can see that it has some cool architecture and some classic quake mechanisms (vore lift).

However I have to say, that I constantly get under 10 fps here. I'm using software joequake on a machine without a 3d card. Before you all jump and laugh and point at me, know that I get ~35 fps in most other maps. I can play antediluvian, sm82, ac, could, day of the lords (!), and deathmatch, all fine and dandy. But since the recent boom of HUUGE maps by relatively new mappers, my fps dropped through the floor and I get greyflash in the really large areas in maps like yours, JPL's, hrimfaxi's and so on.

I can play Insomnia (!) which is supposed to be large I think, with over 20 fps, very slight drops in the really large outdoor areas of course, but it´s playable, and nearly enjoyable, though I prefer original id maps and stuff like ac or ant.

So why does Insomnia run error-free and new-style huuge maps don't? Because of my crappy hardware? No. At least only partly. It´s largely due to level design.

There was a time when people used to worry about r_speeds. Also, there was a time when people knew how vis worked and how to build rooms and corridors to account to that. For example, in a standard corridor, nothing should prevent me from getting 35 fps. Now if that corridor has a window to a huge outdoor area and that is visible from my POV, then vis will render not only that corridor, but the huge cavern, too. And my fps will drop through the floor. Not to mention that huuge open interconnected indoor/outdoor areas are slowing down the game in general. It's just not what quake does best. In some of the newer huuge maps, I get the feeling of a not properly vised map.

The biggest problem I think is that level designers have become a bit careless, saying "oh I have this P4 and this Geforce card and this engine which has all those limits removed, so I will make this large thing because I can and because large=good. Screw r_speeds and vis and fps and greyflash and the other crap. People can download a special engine to play my map. Here, it even comes as a .pak."

But the limits are part of Quake! Somehow, the id maps should be seen as guidance on the making of quake maps, and what is quake and what isn't, and how to do things in order to make the whole shit work. (There are maps that contain 200 monsters and are error-free and playable on a P90!) Even Insomnia is clearly sparse on the details, and relying on architecture and texturing (and lighting) in those huge outdoor areas. Inside, in the corridors and rooms, there can be more detail.

Often enough, there is no need for the sheer size displayed (making monsters and players look like insects, perhaps?) in some maps. The hangar in JPL's new map is an example. Sometimes I get the feeling that the author lost the sense of scale.

Is it the LOTR's fault? Bigger than Minas Tirith?
Or Star Wars? Life-sized Death Star?

But any software producer needs to know basic rules. It needs to work no matter what. That's why windows is successful. People at least have the impression that it will always work. I mean, do it cleanly!

Test it in software.
Test it on a Pentium 90.
Test it in different clients.

That´s just good practice. The same rules that go for web designers, programmers, yadda yadda.

Please no "download flash to view this web site" crap. ok?

ankh, don't take this personally. Your level could be worse in this regard. I hope some of the other "huuge" mappers read this ,too.

had to speak out. 
Nico 
You seem to be pretty experienced with Q1, but still you mention greyflash in software engines. Don't you know how to get rid of that easily (r_maxedges/r_maxsurfs)?

Also, many of the recent releases have been tested in different clients, including software engines, e.g. my WinQuake.

And I'm all for trying to keep r_speeds reasonable considering the map's layout and level of detail.

Ankh's HDN map isn't huge or overly detailed; its main problem is the amount of monsters in the open layout. With a custom progs (which is also suggested in the readme), this can be eliminated.

But suggesting that new Q1 maps should be tested on P90's is pretty ridiculous today. I have an old extra P233 myself and I'm surprised that it still wakes up every morning ... How many P90's do you think are still alive? 
Hey Nico 
Why shouldn't I adjust the maps playability to the power present computers have? I just get much more possibilities to make new interesting things. In most ID maps you were enclosed inside the building. In maps like cda or hdn you can walk out, visit the rooftop, walk on the architecture, move in seconds from one part of the map to another. Those are some things made possible with present computers. Why not use it?
I have tested my map with winquake and it worked fine on my 800 MHz Celeron. The gray outs can be avoided by raising r_maxsurfs and r_maxedges (as stated in the txt). I know the map has high r_speeds but they are still bearable by medium class computers. Vis blocking doesn't work well with the level of interconnectivity present in my map. Sorry.

Oh, and I don't even try to compete with insomnia and other great maps. 
AquiRe 
brings up a really good point. I had both a PIII and a PII die out last year (current system is a P-IV 2.6 gig). If this is the norm , that older pentiums are becoming exponentialy rare as the seasons go by) and not an exception, it would not be sensible to build maps that kept those limitations in mind. I am not even sure that is all that important to vis maps at this stage, as even the PIII with a GF2 had no problems with large un vised maps with disgustingly complex geometry. 
Answers 
Hey guys,

I'm glad we can discuss these matters in a civil way. Thank you.

I know about maxedges and maxsurfs. If all I have to do to get a map playable is increase them a bit, that's OK. Still, greyflash shouldn't be so drastic from the start. And having to increase those limits is already part of the "problem". Limits are probably at the center of this discussion.
New mappers of course are glad that now they're free to ignore those limits. But while doing so, they should still strive for clean and efficient level design, because that's good practice. Having no limits tends to make people sloppy. Also they may forget considering the relations between monster size and building size, amount of monsters and gameplay, purpose and architecture etc. It's also easy to just lose the sense of scale in a because-I-can way of thinking. And the effect is that one day, three mapper generations later, quake maps will look nothing like quake maps. And the game is altered. From an artist's POV, that's intriguing. From the POV of somebody who loves quake (as in, the original masterpiece by id), that's horrible.
Ankh's map is pretty civil in this regard. What I described is just the consequent thinking-it-to-the-end.

Anyway, I was more talking about general slowness, low fps, and the feeling of a badly vised map. Constructing a map to comply with the limits of quake led to the classic quake maps we know. That's a tradition there. If you have a game engine with limits, you need to construct around them, not use faster hardware to _mask_ the problems that come from stretching the limits.
aguirRe, it should not be mandatory to read the readme _before_ playing a quake map. And P90 was just an example. I meant "any computer under 500 MHz and a software client, preferably the original winquake or comparable". Of course, they are getting more rare, but the quake community is large enough and has some geek people. You can just send your map via e-mail to someone who has a comparable system. Web designers need to _still_ test stuff with Netscape 3.0, and rightfully so.
ankh, I hope I explained the reasons why you should use the opportunities _carefully_ earlier. Use them, but do continue to watch r_speeds and playability. and just design cleanly. "bearable" is maybe not enough. I know that Americans and western Europeans mostly think that the world has P4s and DSL lines and radio controlled fridges. But lots of people are using the older systems that you sold on ebay years ago!
And while you don't compete with Insomnia ankh, try learning from it.
HeadThump, you're making the situation worse than it is. Lots of people still have older machines. The linux community is loving them and using them as routers, whatever. :-) But we should keep the limitations in mind because they can _help us make better maps_. Because those limitations are part of the quake mapping history and tradition. Most great maps were made to adhere to limitations like r_speeds. Not vising maps "because you can" is just careless. It's like putting downloads on the net that aren't zipped. It's not good practice.

I just wanted to give some people something to think about.

gl. 
 
aguirRe, it should not be mandatory to read the readme _before_ playing a quake map.

What? It bloody well should!!!

And while you don't compete with Insomnia ankh, try learning from it.

Insomnia was kinda shit really. I would advice against taking any lessons from it.

Not vising maps "because you can" is just careless.

This is true. I don't know if this map was vised or not, but if it wasn't you are a shit, Ankh. If it was vised I have no idea what the man with the tiny penis^H^H^H^H computer is talking about. 
The Map Was Vised Czg 
and it took something above 12h. Vis time was over 40h before I made some brushes to func_walls. Also my map doesn't exceed any engine limits.
Nico: I think that the quake engine had its limits set to compromise with the computing power of computers in that times. And now we have better computers.... But I can understand people who complain that the new maps have lost the "id purity". I also like to play the original id quake maps and I do it very often. 
 
BIG THANKS for all comments.

If anyone is interested, there are some demos recorded on this map at Speed Demos Archive. Here is the link:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/quake/mkt.pl?level:hdn

The 18s easy run is really interesting and the easy 100% either.


The files are compressed with dzip - a simple command line program:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/dzip/download.html 
Very Nice 
A very nice map. An interesting use of knave textures. Fun gameplay. Not a big map but still very fun 
Yes 
the map is very goodlooking and watching those SDA runs in slow motion is great. The map seems to have a lot of potential for this (as designed). 
Two Pennies... 
Read_me file: I always write them but rarely read others - yes, I know that says more about me than cash ever can. But if the map works, I kill the monsters, live the life and get the girl. Next map please.

Vising maps: should be compulsary. My current WIP has been going for 6 weeks so far - it chugs away in the background and doesn't stop me doing other things. And when it finishes, I will release it.

Design maps for older equipment: no. I make maps for fun on a modern machine using a modern engine. If it doesn't work on an older machine or older engine, sorry. But don't bother reading the read_me file, it won't help. Just dump the map and move on to the next one. You won't miss much (well, with my maps anyway)

I do like this board. I will come here even after I stop mapping. 
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