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Base Pack
oh wel i love base theme so much that i start making another map just want to ask if is anybody interresing in making a episode? maby with 4 or 5 maps?!?!
Hrmm 
i dont think ive encountered a "base pack" before, aside from the first episode of SoA.

im curious as to how this would turn out... 5 maps of nothing but Jawbreaker perhaps ? 
If anyone wants the source to my PH8DM2 let me know, I know some would've liked to see it transformed into an SP map. 
Enemies 
In the old days, there would not be enough enemies to sustain 5 maps of base theme. But now, there are enough custom base enemies of good quality that it would probably work.

Of course, the key would also be to make sure each level looks fresh, which means probably using different base textures as the primary ones for each map. For example, one map using mostly the rust-red walls, one using lots of uniterrupted white ribbing, etc. Geometry and setting and gameplay can also be used to distinguish them, too -- for example having one be a base inside a volcano, another one be a flooded base, another one is very puzzle-oriented etc.

P.S. OUM was basically 3 base maps in a row, though they were ikbase instead of idbase. 
Yay 
I would be interrested in making a map for this, been ages since I worked with idbase (and q1) and I've grown very fond of the set recently.

Darren -DOT- Weekes -AT- gmail -Dot- com 
SHEEIT 
COUNT ME IN

but... a design document is definitely required

lun, got any spares? ;D 
 
zomggg then �someone must make that document :) my english is crapy... 
Very Good Idea 
I like metlslime's thinking. Count me in as well. Ive recently been thinking of making a base map in an AvP / Hell in a Can style set on a big transport ship of some sort, so I'll shotgun that style.

Someone should get a design document together �_� 
Starbuck, Mapper Independence 
No mapper should be able to exclude others from mapping in the same theme as he. In other words, the mappers should help write the design document.

Example: I also want to do a Hell In A Can style map. Should Starbuck and I have a duel? 
Are You Going To Use Any Mods? 
Ideally, I would like to see Zerstorer weapons (shotcycler, laser and perhaps chainsaw) + ME + quoth ents (spawner) and expanded grunts. Maybe get a few hip or even OUM ents in there too.

I'd be up for it if I could make a start map or small/medium sized map. I don't want to commit to anything big as I am already kind of busy (2 fairly large SP maps), but this project sounds fun, so I'd like to do something if I have time. I like the flooded base theme idea too :)

Is the plan only for idbase, or all kinds of base (id, speed, tiddles, metls q2 and rubicon texes, etc.)?

Design doc is required, but I don't think it need be too detailed. Just an overview of what mods and textures are going to be used and any overall theme/story that is planned. Perhaps also some details of each map once the author has decided what they are doing so that the maps can be ordered and linked together nicely. 
Irc 
i am idling in #basesp 
Duel Two In A Barrel 
I may be a poor mapper, but I would be in for it. 
 
cool i think neg|ke had a map that could be start! about than idear by using a new progs if your decision... me and .qc are 0,000001% :) total noob! a start map with same stuff like chapter�s that close the room when we finish the level and take all weapons are nice! this way we can play straight and speedrunners can play maps individual if they want! 
I Started A Map 
Gonna be kind of a "industrial" base map, lots of heavy structures etc, set against some rocky outcroppings. 
OOH. 
Count me in, but I'd definitely want to see if we could decide on monsters, tex and whatnot. Also, it'd be really cool if we could make it coop friendly, since I've always wanted to have a q1 coop base tour =D 
 
i like a lot the blue enforcers and the green LTH enforcers :)but for runs idbase progs is better... 
 
yeah, a proper base pack would be nice. dunno if i can contribute though. depends on the deadline.

trinca, you were probably refering to this http://negative.net.tc/images/quest0001.jpg - mind though this is only one single room with a slipgate.
my speedbase scrap is still there as well, but it's fairly poor... 
 
there is no deadline lets see what happend if possible to be in end of this year whould be good let�s see who is in!!! then we talk about deadline and other stuff! 
I'll Work On A Little Something. :) 
I've had an idea for a base map knocking around in my skull for a while, so it'd be good to have an excuse to actually build it.

I liked the enemy lineup in the base pack you released during QExpo Trinca, and I also like the base enemies in Quoth. We need to have that scorpion thing from the Hipnotic pack as well. :D

A brand new boss monster for the final map would be nice though, because the Hipnotic one always gets used. 
 
phait u do :) since map is finish for u is much easy to convert it!!! :) go on dont be lazy... 
Aaarggghhh Trinca, No Blue Enforcers! 
Please? They look a bit crap. 
 
inertia
A duel it is! Fisticuffs at dawn sir!

Seriously though, there's no reason we can't both do the same style. At least it would add some coherency to the pack. I'm planning on generally scaring the player as much as possible, using vorelings and fiends a lot and working hard on the lighting. 
Quoth Source? 
I don't think the quoth source is available is it? That would make it hard to add other monsters.

Nice idea though, I hope something comes of it! 
 
oh wel u guys decided i think base id whould be great there is so many good monster�s to add to a base map! and easy for all!!! just hope by the time i finish my map i have skill�s enought to make a clean light map :\ since i�m better with arquitecture and skill very bad in lights :\

i think what he just need is a small start map like chapter�s map that close the door after the map is complete! 
Textures? 
idbase only then? I don't mind working with idbase again, but maybe if there are many people who want to make a map, it will end up getting a bit tedious because all the maps will look so similar. Sure, the setting for each map can be different, and there are a few colour variations, but there is definitely a possibility that some of the maps will look very similar.

I'm not for or against idbase only though. I rather like the set, and would be happy to use it for my map, but I just worry that other might lose interest because they had a different set in mind. 
 
i think all base and ikbase are alowed biff.wad and the modified than textures could make a good variety in maps! 
Mod (monster/weapon) Suggestions 
Weapons: (either this or just stick with the existing Quake arsenal I reckon)

*Zerstorer super shotgun. Cooler, more mechanical, and just as lethal as the original

*Zerstorer blaster (nailgun replacement) fit's in better with the base theme, and is more fun to use than the nailgun I think.

Monsters:

*Zerstorer mega enforcer. Coolest base monster of all time I think. He has some nice attacks, and also that awesome shield.

*Quoth rocket grunt. Good weak ranged enemy with a dangerous weapon. Red, so easy to spot.

*Quoth grenade enforcer. Has a close up shotgun attack, which is nasty, but also the grenade attack, which is a good replacement for ogres.

Also the standard base monsters should be used, and additionally some tougher regular Quake monsters. I am fond of Shamblers, Fiends and Vores, because they fit in ok with a base setting as they could be from any time - they are just monsters. Scrags and spawn might be ok too.

Quoth's Bob is ok, but maybe he's a little annoying. There are also centroids and Armagon from Scourge, and the axe grunts from lunsp1 that might work.

Not a good idea to get too carried away with extra monsters though. I think only a handful should be added.

useful funcs and triggers:

Quoth spawnflags for monsters... amazingly useful!

Hip rotating ents... if anyone wants to bother with the hassle :)

exploding wall. Not neccessary, but easier than pissing around with info_null and func_wall

force fields? I like forcefields. Anyone else like them? 
I Think 
rather than sticking strictly to the original IDBase set the mapper should be left to their own discretion, with the simple guideline that their map should be in keeping with the general base ambiance. I'm pretty sure most people mapping for the project will have played enough Quake to know what consititutes IDbase ambiance, and then it's up to them just how far they deviate from it.

Obviously knights would be a silly thing to find in a Base map, but there are certain things like ogres and scrags which I think bridge the stylistic gap between all of Quake's dimensions, so it would be difficult to impose strict limits on any mapper. 
Yes, I'd Love To Have Forcefields! 
Are there any more airbourne Base-like monsters around? Other than Bob? I'd love to see an enforcer with a jetpack or something. 
 
I would like to see some rubicon and ikbase maps too. Those are slick textures! Hell, maybe we could get metl to release the rubi2 texture set...

Also, maybe we can use this as an opportunity to get the QC people in on a project. For example, I want my level to have a flashlight -- do I know how to code that? Hell no! 
Flashlight? 
Oh noes, please keep it Quake! 
Trinca 
phait u do :) since map is finish for u is much easy to convert it!!! :) go on dont be lazy...

I'm horrible with SP layout. Plus I've had a real job now and when I'm not working I'm gaming or working on my design portfolio. 
 
Phait sent me then i will try to make something when i finish mine :) 
Hmm 
how about some lose connection between maps that could allow for a stylistic change in each map, for instance:

The player keeps getting deeper and deeper underground into this "base". Each map becomes darker and more evil as the player goes underground, this would allow for pretty much any quake monsters in the lower levels (end maps), would also allow for some cool rock/base maps, and some degenerate abandoned base maps too. Things could also get a bit more demonic as the player goes deeper, to add another stylistic change perhaps...

Just an idea ofc :) 
I Like That Idea 
but it would require a lot more organisation to produce a consecutive series, because you'd have to decide whose level contains what weapons etc. etc. Oh and only one person could realistically show any sky. :P

But I suppose if a few people wanted to do that, then the start.bsp could lead to one or two small 'episodes' as well as single levels?

I do like the idea of somehow unifying them all with a common theme that's slightly more consistant than just 'Base'. Like perhaps each level/episode has a very distinctive looking button/lever/whatever at the end, all of which have to be hit in order to power up a bossgate back in start.bsp. 
 
i�m progressing in a map that is a mix of inside and outside doors 
Stand Alone Quake Mod 
On a mildly related note, have any of you guys got any idea how much of the original quake content you would need to replace before you could distribute any Quake mod without requiring the end user to have a actual copy of Quake?

I'd still be up for making a quake map, but I'm kind of depressed at how small an audience such a map could currently receive, but if we could somehow replace enough of the content to make a stand alone distribution legal, then you would end up with the ability to distribute a completely legal stand alone copy of Quake setup to play just our maps.

Having thought about it, the only new stuff we'd need to replace would be the monsters, the animations, the weapon models and the sounds. There's already plenty of freely distributible textures and maps, along with all the replacements for the console graphics and quakeC mods and stuff.

Is any one up for the task? Imagine how cool it would be to be able to distribute your maps completely stand alone to users without requiring them to have any pre-installed game. Would it even be legal to replace the original quake content with a slightly higher resolution copy made to imitate the existing stuff?

Anyway, for my part I've been getting into character modelling recently and I've already got a fairly decent replacement for the Quake grunt made in maya, all textured and rigged ready for animation, maybe I'll try and get it completely replacing the original grunt and that could be a start.

Anyway, excuse the massive brain fart, but I think it would be really cool to have a totally freely distributible game which people could make maps for. 
OH 
lun, got any spares?

ZING! BURN! SNAP! 
Base Progression 
Daz, that's a great idea! It provides a great excuse to have the different styles of base in the pack (ikbase, idbase, rubibase, etc.).

Also, there could be a "surface" section of maps, and a "sub-surface" section. Heck, the surface section could have runes that are collected, before allowing progress to the subterranean section... 
Thoughts From A Non-Contributor 
If you all stick with idbase, then there would be a lovely high-resolution texture pack already made for it.

I also hope you all heed biff's suggestion: make it coop friendly.

Furthermore, DaMaul's idea is interesting--rather reminiscent of the GPL Quake project or whatever it's called--but would require so much work as to doom the project from the get-go. Maybe I'm just being cynical. 
One Thing To Consider, DaMaul 
Nexuis is GPLed, and could be the basis of a single player TC game.

Good luck, Trinca. My plate is a bit full to contribute a map. Though, if you do use the Zer weapons, I would not mind pitching in a reskin for them. 
Oooh. 
I'm liking the idea of single suface maps leading to a sub-surface episode. 
Remaking Models For GPL 
There's one thing you need to bear in mind with, say, your grunt remake. How similar is it to the original iD model? If it's fairly derivative, then it might still violate the copyright on the original. For instance,
http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/ajd70/shalrath.zip
is a remake of the vore. Although it's made from scratch, and the animations and skin were done only with reference to the original, I wouldn't be confident that it's not a violation to use it in a replacement quake pack. At least in my eyes it's fairly faithful to the original, but that's the crux of the dilemma. If it's close enough to the original to satisfy purists, it's probably not different enough to be legal.

Openquartz
http://openquartz.sourceforge.net/
had the same objective of replacing everything with GPL content, and I think their weapons are a good example to aim for in terms of how similar/different to go. The weapons are still clearly shotguns/rocket launchers etc, and the animations still fit the original code, but they are distinct looking enough. Of course, they aren't much in quake flavor, and the monsters stray even further. Could we invent new monsters that fit the quake feel, sync with the motions of the originals, but are distinct enough? Well, maybe...

I guess after all that being down on remaking quake monsters exactly, it would be silly to turn 180 and release one myself. But Romero did say at Qexpo that the shambler is meant to be furry, so I decided to make a model to fit.
http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/ajd70/shambler.zip 
 
great shambler model :) ehehe 
Good Luck To All 
I have my own base maps to work on... 
 
he are just trying to make something if nothing get�s out of this at least some will have some maps release soon :) 
No Things Get Out Of This... 
Great Shambler Preach, looks like the yetti!
Thought, where's its cyclope eye?
I watched your Vore model and must say it has a more vieuwable body than Quake's original.

And if Scorpio is allowed, why not Gremlins?
Makes me think of how to coordinate
Quake1 textures - Hipnotic pak - New monsters -
I think it has to be playable in normal Quake1 as it is called Base Pack. 
Preach 
What music is he dancing to? Good stuff. 
Oh Dear... 
Thought, where's its cyclope eye?

I hope this is a joke ; - ) 
Dancing? 
Dancing? Well, er, that's just my way of making it...um, indivdualising the model...to prevent it from being a copyright violation and all. By teaching it a variety of dance styles - all to use in combat. Can't be too, hmm, careful eh?

Ok, I messed up, this is the wrong copy of the model, it's meant to be an easter egg thing. There's another version I have on here with real animations, I'll get that uploaded soon enough. Sorry to derail the thread with this, perhaps it should be posted elsewhere? 
Trinca 
Well it seems I don't have the source on my DVD backup... 
 
:) hehe can be decompiled and fixed... sometimes decompilers dont fuck maps much 
Custom Entities 
I would be *absolute delighted* (hand flap) to have some proper, easy to use rotating entities... and a flashlight! :D 
Baaaaaa 
what is it about flashlights? :)

I think we just need some more base enemies, that is it! 
A Few Little 
techniques can take something like q1sp a loooong way. 
Yeah So Basicly Inertia's Idea: 
Remake aerowalk for SP, but make it fulldark so he doesn't have to show off his nasty lighting skills. 
Base Enemies 
simply having variants of grunts would help.. palette shift for sg, ssg, ng/sng, and grenades. use the rocketguys from Quoth for rockets obviously...

a differently skinned Enforcer with higher health who fires the plasma from DoE, good medium/high level enemy just cause the plasma is powerful and takes more unique dodging when it impacts

sentry guns ala TF could be in some places as well...

differently skinned player model could be present to, perhaps wielding a lightning gun and strafing a little bit

if the weapons the enemies possess are accurate in damage to what you could deal with them, i like the idea of the player getting all their weapons from the corpses of enemies. changes things up a bit in weapon/monster progression.

sorry for the flighty post, i was just thinking these up as they came to me, rather than approaching with a full idea. 
Yes 
re-skinned grunts and enforcers is a must, its been tried and tested and works well.

Sentry turrets could be ok if used properly, perhaps they could be triggered to turn on and off so you could use some floor panel activators and button deactivators etc. Would create some chances for different gameplay at least.

Still not so keen on the flashlight idea, but I geuss it depends how it was implemented and how the level was designed to use it...

I think we need a flying enemy, but I agree that bob from Quoth was quite annoying :) Maybe a doctor robotnik style thing (lol) ... 
Czg 
nasty lighting skills.

where? 
Right 
Still not so keen on the flashlight idea

Amen. This isn't Doom 3, thank gods.

Can you all please stop with the crappy ideas and just do something simple that stands a chance of actually getting done, like a bunch of non-connected id base maps that support coop, and a start map that links them all together a la 100b contest?

Keep in mind that if you alter the progs.dat, the maps will no longer be playable in QW coop. Just include a few semi-base monsters like shamblers, fiends, vores, and ogres if you need more variety.

And if you want a non-id base map, then just go make a map in that other theme and release it elsewhere. 
RPG 
If you're going to be such a downer, why don't you at least make a map for the pack? Sorry you've got a flaming pull up your butt, hun. 
:( :( 
Calm down guys. It would be shit if this thread suddenly went off topic because people started getting annoyed with each other, because a base pack is a cool idea, and judging by the enthusiasm the idea has received so far, there is a chance of something happening.

However, I have to agree that adding too much stuff is a bad idea. If we use a modified progs, then I think we should just take the best base monsters that already exist and use them, rather than doing lots of extra work to have reimaginings of the same ideas people have used in their maps for ages. As far as I'm concerned, the best grunt/enforcer mods are those in Quoth, the Zer Mega-Enforcer and perhaps the one used in Mexx10 (not sure about the skin, but I don't remember it 100% - also used in gmsp1?) If there is time, and I can recover from my current RSI problems, I wouldn't mind making some heavy weapons guy (similar to Doom 2) variant from scratch, but that's all.

If we don't use a modified progs, then any other monster but knights is ok to use. Whilst I don't really like ogres in base maps, they aren't quite as out of place as knights.

Maybe for now we should just concentrate on making some maps, which is what we do best ;)

By the way, it is possible to make floor turrets in Quake with no modifications. You could even make them grenade deactivateable like the ones in HL2. It's simply a case of setting up a func_door that rises out of the floor and some spikeshooters (firing lasers, not spikes) to shoot where the player is likely to be. You then trigger the door and shooters when the player is near, and have it retract when the player goes away. Also, leave a small gap for grenades to be shot into when the turret pops up and have a trigger with health 10 (or whatever) at the bottom of the pit the func_door is placed in that kills the activate triggers when used. Easy, and no mods.

BTW, Christmas release for teh win! 
 
BTW, Christmas release for teh win!

love that :) Christmas winter is always good for some sp at home :) u guys decided about monster�s i just want to play some base maps :) but i agree ogres and nights cant be fit!!! they dont supose to be in base maps :\ 
I Nominate THAN 
for the project lead 
I Nominate SOMEONE ELSE 
;)

I wouldn't mind, but it was Trinca's idea. Besides, I have two maps that I need to finish once I have recovered from RSI or whatever the hell is going on (it's only mild atm, but I am trying to reduce computer usage - especially at home). 
RSI 
Hey Than, get yourself one of those padded mouse mats that elevates your wrist, and start taking some glucosamine tablets. Works a treat I've heard! 
 
oh i just bring the subject...

1� my english suck
2� me and qc = 0
3� this comunity got good projects leathers 
 
can use flying robot from OUM 
So... 
you know how quake episodes start with 1 base map and then the rest of the episode is fantasy/horror maps.... so, why not have map1 be a fantasy/horror intro which ends with a slipgate leading to an episode of base maps? 
Yeah 
and the player is not a ranger, but a knight. ;)

seriously though: why not (fantasy/horror start map)? could also be the boss map (gate only opens after all maps have been completed), with a boss area that mixes all themes with base elements. 
THAN. 
You rock. Can you make me up a example map of one of those floor turret thingies? You'd still rock if you couldn't, but damn -- would you rock if you could. 
Flashlight 
what's the problem really? sure, quake is not doom3, but that's still no reason why such a thing shouldn't be done in quake as well. it's not like all maps of the pack have to be pitch black now.
if the flashlight is only available (and needed) in one map, it even adds to variety. coding it shouldn't be that difficult, and if there are custom monsters, why not some other progs, too? 
Flares 
Maybe flares would be a better choice than a flashlight. 
No 
You need a disco strobe light. That way you can have random colored lights, induce nausea, and require DarkPlaces all at the same time.

Keep in mind that the flashlight wouldn't work at all in default GL engines unless the user set gl_flashblend 0. Moreoever, you're going to require the player to bind and use another key, making the control scheme more complicated. You will have to choose very carefully which key you want to bind it to or else you'll mess up the player/mapper's existing binds.

Flashlights are gimmicks. There's nothing you can do with a flashlight that you can't do without, and more importantly it doesn't come across as a gimmick when you do it without. 
Already Mapping... 
and I think...

waiting for christmass? 
 
hehe i will finish my map sooner i think :) i will start another for sure... but now going to holydays 3 weeks i might map a litle becouse i got a small computer... 
Or.. 
just make it a seperate weapon, so that you have to switch back and forth between gun and light. That way the controls don't have to change at all. 
Or... 
make it worldspawn specified, so one map could be darker and while in it, the flashlight is simply on, so the player doesnt change controls at all, theyre just simply in a darker level only with the ability to reveal some of the environment at a time 
I Like 
scar3crow's idea teh best0r 
Didn't Bother 
Reading the whole thread, but sounds neat. If anyone can join, I wouldn't mind doodling a base-map in Radiant if sign-ups aren't done with. 
Or 
JUST DONE USE A FLASHLIGHT AT ALL (OMG)


...

Seriously, I want to make a quake map, not a doom 3 map. 
Inertia 
Be sure you put at least one imp behind every door, too. 
You 
don't have to use the fucking flashlight in your map if you don't want to. Do you really feel it necessary to kill the momentum I have just so that you can adhere to some twisted version of "quake purity"? 
Well 
I think a flashlight would be cool if done with integrity to Quake. If not, that's OK too.

Other than that, I intend to make some sort of hybrid base/metal map or, more likely, a hybrid base/void map, since it seems a little more obvious/on theme. I'll see how the arguments go from here, and adjust accordingly. 
Floating Base Map 
cool idea :) 
Floating Base Map 
Hehe, yeah. It could be a "dimensional experiment GONE TERRIBLY WRONG". 
And Nert... 
Go play Doom 3. 
I Don't Understand 
all this melodrama surrounding the flashlight. If it's not too difficult to implement and a mapper wants to use it then why shouldn't they be able to? It's not as if anybody's going to be strapped down and forced to play the map. 
So 
Who's participating? I got me down for a base/void map. Anyone else know what kind of map they're gonna make, what order they'll be in, who's the "lead" et al ? 
Forth.. 
a lost mine original flashlight looking thing. 
I'm In. Working On A Map Called 
The Timegate Complex.

:> 
Im In 
making a base carved into a mountain face. Industrial style idbase map whaaaay 
Me Also 
Terrifying journey through a base, after which the player realizes the terrible journey was actually through his own mind. 
Wow 
Good to see all these maps started! I just hope this project doesn't suffer from "natural terrain comp" issues. I think that if nobody is able to finish maps they should put them up for adoption and let others finish them or perhaps graft parts into their own maps if possible.
Than - you are a clever man! Can you make a spike shooter target the player so it follows them like a turret in Half Life? Why wouldn't lasers work?
I vote Zwiffle for team leader - though not the best mapper on this thread, he has a strong record of actually finishing his projects. 
Drew 
There is a Sadlark level that emulates this pretty well with a spike attack. I forget which one it is though. The situation involves clearing out a bunker area. You move from side to side and the spike is positioned to appear to fallow. Pretty cleverly done, but it can be refined even further. 
 
sadlark 4 wasnt it ? 
Drew 
It can't follow the player! It would just pop up from the floor and the shooters would fire when it pops up. It can use spikes or lasers. I will try and make it when I have time, but I think anyone should be able to figure out how to do it. 
Maybe 
that could be something for the modified progs.dat ?

A turret that pops up and can fire lazer / grenade / rocket etc...

Could also specify if it comes out of the floor (rises) or down from the ceiling (falls).

Could be quite useful I think, and a model should be easy as it needs no animation (really...) 
Yea'. 
Than's idea is a clever workaround, but if we're having a modified progs.dat (I'm not sure it's been decided yet?) anyway, we may as well throw in a shooter that tracks the player. Infact, wasn't there one in the Rogue mission pack? 
Drew 
Since I haven't played Sadlark in years, I put a few hours of play time in. If you want to do this trick of having the spikes follow the player open up Sadlark9 for examination. Essentialy though, you are putting three or more spike emmitters around the same position and then having trigger_multiples adjacent to one another. In Sadlark9, the spikes emmitter areas are covered by bunkers.

However, Than's trick sounds way cool too. 
Floor Gun Test 
Here is an example of what is possible. This is a really simple example, so bear in mind that it could easy be expanded to a more complex setup involving multiple turrets, turrets that alternately fire in orthagonal/diagonal directions, turrets that fire in patterns similar to the one in E2M7 (spiral pattern from what I remember) etc. Not sure if you can set the spikeshooters up to fire from the ceiling to the floor, but perhaps there is a hack. Whatever the case, they work quite nicely on the floor anyway :)

Here's the file: http://than.leveldesign.org/files/floorGunTest.7z 
Thoughts On Flashlight 
Whilst I don't mind the idea of a flashlight too much, I don't really like the thought of having to use a modified engine to get it to work, or even forcing players to set gl_flashblend 0, even though it can be done in an autoexec.cfg if the pack has its own directory and progs.

Another way of adding dark areas to a map is to have switchable lights to sections of the map that the player can turn on as they progress. This needn't be as obvious as a light switch, but could be (only marginally less obvious, I know) disguised as power generators that the player must turn on in each section of the map.

Anyway, if anyone wants to add a flashlights mod, that's fine with me, but I don't think we should force people to use a certain engine (darkplaces or whatever) to play.

As for a turret mod, that sounds ok. The ones in OUM aren't so bad, though I'm not sure they can be activated and deactivated at will. I'm not really that keen on the Zer ones either. 
Forgotten To Mention In Last Post Thoughts 
I'd prefer the flashlight as a separate weapon as Metl suggested. It would have to be done really well and implemented into the gameplay effectively to not piss me off though. Always on (and set in WS) is also not a bad idea, and would require no model.

As for level structure, I think it's best that we just have a hub structure similar to that of Chapters, because it allows everyone to be as creative with the gameplay of their map as possible without having to think about what how hard the previous level was and what weapons the player is carrying. It also means that players can check out any map they like at any time, without having to endure a really hard/annoying (e.g. three shambler ambush with no cover and confusing layout) map before getting to one they like.

COOP friendly is also something I am for 100%, so if code is written for the pack, perhaps some coop specific stuff wouldn't go amiss. My thoughts are improvements to existing entities to make them more coop friendly, players keep guns they have picked up (but no ammo or minimum pickup ammo) when they respawn, coop only appearflags (possibly, could be a lot of work) and perhaps some other stuff.

Is anyone reading this versed in qc and willing to contribute? 
THAN. 
You rock. You rock for the floor turrent thingie, too. Also, Asaki has shown an interest in helping out with the coop-friendly coding, but since I'm pretty much ingnorant in this field, I defer to you or Senor Gove in letting him know just what may need to be done. And you rock. 
On The Flashlight 
Give my elite team a few days. I think you guys will like what is produced... 
Turrets And Flashlight And Quoth 
The turret idea sounds slightly interesting... but I'd like one that could be set to only attack the monsters (like in a real base). Flashlights are also interesting, but surely it requires Darkplaces in order to do the dynamic lighting?

As for monsters/etc... why not just use Quoth, it's got about everything you need. I mean, that's the point of it. 
Dynamic Lighting 
a flashlight in an engine outside of DarkPlaces will look the same as the light emitted from a travelling rocket, only kept still cause its a flashlight

in Darkplaces it will look the same by default. if you turn on Real Time Dlights then it will look the same except dlight entities (the flashlight, rockets, spawn exploding etc) will cast realtime shadows for their duration. so a rocket exploding will flash the ogres shadow over the wall, and the flashlight will peel silhouettes of grating across the floor. granted if you did DP only you could fancy it up with a cool cubemap and so on, to render the lens of the light, but eh, not necessary.

but yeah, its easy for it to look fine in other engines and cool in DP - or the same. 
Flashlights In Regular Q1 
The normal way to do it is just to spawn an entity with no model, give it the glowing light effect and then position it at the end of the traceline from the player. Basically, the way the hl 1 flashlight worked. This causes problems in multiplayer because entities with no model aren't updated over the network. A good fix is to make a 1x1 pixel transparent sprite, and set the model to that instead. This isn't necessary in single-player, but is worth doing if you're gonna support coop.

Of course, if you're smart with the way you write it, you could put some checkextensions code in there too, so any engine that supports checkextentions and dynamic pre-pixel lighting uses a true flashlight, and any other engine just uses the cheap method above. Darkplaces supports both these things, I don't know if many others engines do.

Also, while I'm posting, I'll throw my weight behind the always on flashlight if you do decide to go ahead with it. It's the neatest option in my mind, a seperate weapon will cause (some of) the same complaints doom 3 received. 
Mexx10 
the special enforcer there was pretty good. I just recently played the map/pack. It had other cool things too, stuff rotating in multiple axis and lightnings zapping. (ouch!)

flashlight, have you looked at asaki's speedmod from qexpo? It has a flashlight that's kinda working. Try it in dp and you see dynamic shadows even! :) I don't know if it works in other clients since it's supposed to work in normal maps that are darkened somehow for the mod. 
 
The only thing I want from Quoth that isn't included - at least, that I can think of right now - is func_breakables.
The sadlark level was that kind of disney themed one. 8 worlds in one map. What has that guy been up to? after q2 he kind of dropped out, didn't he? 
No One Has Addressed The Gl_flashblend 0 Problem 
Also, I still say no progs so you can play it on a QW coop server. 
I Don't Know What The Gl_flashblend 0 Problem Is 
I thought everyone played with flashblend off, it looks like total crap. Does it cause much slowdown or something? 
Jonas Lindstrom... 
After releasing Sadgron 3 for Q2 (1999?) did drop off for a while. I fired off an email to him around 2004, where he said that he was working on a 12 map quake2 mission pack, that was about 60% done. Since then, his email address has become obsolete, so i haven't been able to follow up. 
Well... 
not all the maps will use a flashlight. I don't plan on using a flashlight in my map anyway. I agree with SB though, who actually has flashblend set to 1? Maybe QW players? They are probably all savvy enough to turn it off, and we can always disable it in an autoexec.cfg as mentioned before if we have a mod.

I had a thought about the start map earlier. Since I don't particularly like the type of start map that is just a series of unthemed slipgates, I think each author should make a little entrance area, which has the same theme as his level, and then one mapper can glue them all together and make the start map coherent and consistent.

For example, if the map requires the flashlight, perhaps it should be made clear by requiring the player to use it to find their way to the entrance. For the flooded base level, maybe a flooded lift shaft that the player swims down (with air pockets along the way. For the spaceship themes, perhaps a small escape pod like module that fires the player to the level. etc. etc. 
^^ 
Cool idea :) 
Yeah 
that sounds great! 
Btw 
My level casts the player as a self-aware cyborg. 
Well... 
In my level the player is a World War II spy, so you'll have to have a cutscene at the end of your level explaining how the cyborg had his brain transplanted into a human body, and was sent back in time to 1940 France. And explain how he accidentally drops the flashlight into the timestream when he opened the window of his time machine mid-journey. 
Trivia 
Cybernetics as a term was coined by Norbert Wiener in 1948. It is rumored the Nazis did some experiments during the war but they were kept hush-hush so that high level scientists could keep working for the western and soviet governments. 
Lol 
Metlsime and Inertia really should explore this theme if they feel it suits them to do so.

In my level the player is a male prostitute whose
clientale is made up of alternative dimension, Lovecraftian creatures. As always, I ask myself, WWCZGD? 
Gl_flashblend 0 
It's fairly easy to set a variable like this in a safe way, without overwriting anybody's autoexec.cfg - something that does annoy people.

The secret lies in quake.rc. The following is the total contents of the standard quake.rc


// load the base configuration
exec default.cfg

// load the last saved configuration
exec config.cfg

// run a user script file if present
exec autoexec.cfg

//
// stuff command line statements
//
stuffcmds

// start demos if not allready running a server
startdemos demo1 demo2 demo3


Simply add a line under stuffcmds that reads gl_flashblend 0
It'll always execute on loading the mod, and occurs after autoexec.cfg sets it to the id1 default setting. It won't overwrite any other autoexec.cfg settings, or require one to be packaged with the mod.

The only problem then lies with people who deliberatly make the effort to switch it back once the game starts. Then again, people might put r_fullbright 1 in if their monitor is too dark, there's no accounting for some folks... 
Inspiration? 
http://daz.quaddicted.com/images/TEMP_dazbase.jpg

Just finished vertex manipulating the terrain... damn that was "fun". Dont even ask what the r_speeds will be in this area when its all done, I dont want to think about it :) 
Daz 
i am intrigued by your 2 crates that are angled non-orthogonally

that and the grey tech pipe connecting the 2 main structures 
Daz: 
those supports wouldn't happen to be the same ones from crdm3, would they?

Which reminds me: finish crdm3!!!! 
Good Memory 
yes they are, I love them so much I had to get them into a map I will actually release :) 
Damn. 
looks fucking cool, DaZ.
Anybody else have pics of their maps? 
& I Drew Some.. 
Daz: 
you call that "fun"? oh you should try vertex manipulating terrain with 30k+ brushes some day! 
Bear 
I value mt sanity kthx :) 
Oh And Yes 
can others post mapshots to help get the ball rolling? Even if its just an editor shot like mine its always good to show progress :D 
:( 
can't do any mapping at the moment becuase I need to let my rsi calm down. I have to buy a vertical mouse (like evoluent vetical mouse: http://www.evoluent.com/vmouse2.html) to help. Once I get started I will post. 
 
I have been slowly working on a map textured in Ikbase, but I'm not making any promises. Might re-work it as well. 
An Editor Shot. 
Not lit, obviously: http://biff.leveldesign.org/pics/map_shots/wip/q1/sp/base_debris.jpg Going for an angular sort of style this go-around, opposed to the curviness of Myrmidon, which will never be released. 
BOIF 
Interesting take on those greay base panels. I was never quite sure what to do with em, you've made a decent custom texture tho! Also, I recommend more of everything. 
Hey! 
Myrmidon, which will never be released.

Don't pull a czg on us! 
Excuse Me 
But it's called 'Pulling a Bal' 
No 
You pull a Bal when you sit on an already finished map for a long time. You pull a czg when you scrap the map. 
Shot 
Nothing special yet, but I took this to please gibbie who was buggering me. It's a puzzle:

http://www.qwplayers.org/inertia/base1.jpg 
Cool 
Biff, looks good. I MUST have those extralarge variant wall textures. MUST MUST MUST 
Hey, Yeah... 
I didn't even notice that at first. made em yourself? All shots look cool. Biff's looking quite nice. Inertia's looking all moody and shit. Glad to see some real progress - I hope it keeps everyone else motivated/aroused. 
Than 
How are your joints doing? Any luck finding your vmouse? 
Mouse Ordered 
I ordered a special mouse from evoluent.com, but it's for work use. I will be holding back on mapping until things start to improve. 
Than 
just take free time off the computer and do all the other things, now you have a good excuse. Ditch tf and func for a few weeks/months or so! 
Ray 
Well then go get them at http://biff.leveldesign.org/files/base.zip Same goes for anyone else interested in the pack =D 
Monthly Update... 
ok so starting from NOW Ill do a monthly update with screens of how my map is progressing... So hopefully there will not be TOO MANY of these updates hehe...

So 2 new images await you at:

http://daz.quaddicted.com/ 
Daz 
looks great. I really like the lighting so far.

Looking forward to seeing more. 
At First I Saw Only Pink Boxes 
then I adjusted my monitor. Some groovy pipe work there, Daz. 
Agreed. 
Looks hot, Daz. Are you planning a big map, or just a nice little slice of action? Either way, it looks good, and it makes me happy to know it's going to be waiting for me when I make it home. 
DaZ 
this looks really good 
Drew 
I think its gonna be quite big, all my sp maps to date have been quite small compared to whats out there, so its time to expand a bit.

Thanks for the kind words all 
Daz 
that looks ace. 
Daz 
ace-hot lighting there! and other things too. 
DaZZa 
You are the r4wk! I need to get back to my base_mappage ASAP. 
More From Me 
Here's a bit more of what I've been working on: http://biff.leveldesign.org/index.php/?p=47 
That 
looks great biff! 
 
do u guys think we can finish this untill christmas?

i think could be nice to have this pack made in that day... or near that date! 
Gah 
Surely we can. I'm not shooting for an overly huge map, but an interesting one full of baddies. I would hope most folks have the same goal, and we can get it all wrapped up. 
 
It would be nice to have a deadline/goal so I can be coerced into finishing my map. Right now I can make it a small/medium map or make it much larger, depending on the time frame. If it takes too long to get a deadline, I'm likely to wander away from this project. 
CHRISTMAS IS TEH BEST! 
I vote for Dec 25th 2006. That gives everyone nearly 4 months to make their maps and will give everyone else a very Quakey Christmas. 
 
then everybody agree? 
Trinca 
Just a question: if fortunately I have time to make a map for this pack, is Doom3 texture set use forbiden, or not ? 
 
i dont now i�m not leader of project i just sugests!!! my English is total crap :\ but i think is base stuff related... lets see what other people think! 
JPL 
I personally thought it was idbase only, but there is no rule saying you cannot use other base textures at all. If it means we get another map in the pack then I suppose any base themed texture set would be ok. 
METLSLIME 
rubicon2 textures -- yes, �o no? 
Inertia: 
no, use idbase. 
 
i�m using idbase the pack that biff and than have! 
How About IKBase? 
and/or limited use of other textures to complement the idbase ones? 
Finished Opening Area 
http://daz.quaddicted.com/

2 new pics for you all, just finished off the lighting and rocks, and added a cool skybox by Kell.

Gotta crash and burn now, shall carry on tomorrow though :D 
*ahem* 
idbase only please, with perhaps a mite smattering of other complementary textures.

Again, if all maps use idbase only, then they will work nicely with Starbuck's texture replacement pack. 
ACTUALLY 
Starbuck's texture replacement pack only works with textures that have already been used... people making new ones (biff, me, gibbie, etc) will get a shoddy mix of such textures.

It's a base pack, do what you want. I see no reason to stifle creativity with this monster of a project! 
Well 
If it's idbase only that would suck, since my entire map is in speed_bz, and I'm sure as hell not gonna retexture everything. I think since the topic was "Base Pack" and not "idBase Pack" it should be open for all basey-type textures, not to mention that it would just add more variety between levels. 
Other Question 
Is there a common progs.dat provided here, or somewhere else, or are we allowed to use our progs.dat....

Sorry to come back maybe with already discussed point, but I just try to check the coherency of this pack... and if I have a chance aligned my current project and produce something for Xmas.. 
JPL 
I spoke about this with Trinca at some length and we may have a solution that will satisfy purist and modsters alike. Though, this post represents my understanding of it; I don't wont this to sound like Trinca has agree to something that was kicked around but no real decisions were made.

Okay, here it goes: Mappers provide maps that are 100 percent compatable with standard Quake. If the mapper's would like additions -- base monsters, zer weapons, rotating brushes and the like, send a second .map file with those entities that can be used to override the unmodified Quake bsp by coding them into a progs.dat.

If this is what the mappers want, I will be glad to figure out how to put it together, and
put together a progs.dat including whatever resources are agreed upon.

Though, if you do decide to go in this direction, I will not include any Quoth material in the progs.dat without Necros'and Kell's explicit permission (I point this out only because previous post suggest mixing and matching Quoth material with material from other mods and it is bound to come up as an issue). 
HeadThump 
Well, it effectively sounds interesting. however, how will you manage it with 2 different progs.dat that have "inverted" features. As example, spawn64 based progs.dat and standard progs.dat ? It create some conflicts I heavily suppose to be very difficult to solve, unless by a massive map (i.e entity flag) change... What do you think. 
Textures 
since the topic was "Base Pack" and not "idBase Pack" it should be open for all basey-type textures

that's the same impression i had.
therefore i don't see why doom3 textures shouldn't be allowed - they are strongly differing from the other sets, but then again the maps won't be played in order anyway. imo you could also mix some metal or medieval textures in as long as the base setting is kept... 
 
i think could make the pack less boring with maps all in same textures i guess :\ i�m just using the biff and than base textures... 
Imho 
we should just use the quoth progs.dat if we go the custom progs route, otherwise standard progs are best.

I do like the Mega Enforcer though.

I really want to make a heavy weapons guy style grunt (from scratch, not a modification), but it doesn't seem likely to happen thanks to my wrist problems from overwanking... erm, overWORKing.

Note that for this reason, I haven't even started a map for this yet, but I plan to when I have gotten a bit better (probably in a few weeks). 
Errata 
DaZ: Wow, just fucking wow.

I would hope that we wouldn't get the differences in textures out of hand, so at least to have a cohesive pack of maps by that alone. Speed_baze is an excellent alternative to idbase, and maybe ikbase, but I would think using redone d3 stuff would be a bit out there, myself. Just my two cents.

I also think using the Quoth progs.dat is the best solution for any custom features, since that was what it was intended for, and would be nice to use.

And get well, than! 
I'm Using... 
a mix of metalbase, medeivalbase, wizbase, q2base, q3base, kingpinbase, doom2base, zeldabase, and mariobase textures. 
All Base Textures 
and unmodified Quoth progs please! So one has not to install another mod but just some maps.

I wish Quoth becomes some kind of standard. 
 
Quoth got red and green enforcers aren�t bad one shot grenades and the other rockets 
Oh God This Thread Is 5 Seconds Away From An 'All Your Base'-joke... 
 
Lol 
So many fingers, such a small pie... 
Quoth Base 
would likely yield the most interesting results, IMHO, and given the hard work Nec&Kell put in it, Quoth should be used more. My proposal is there if a major split comes up due to mappers wanting different things.

There has been talk of keeping the maps free of modification in order to make them QW compatable. I assume this must be for some kind of coop play that is done through the servers, but I'm not sure. The QW progs.dat has the monster code removed so I don't really
know if it is a relevant request or not.

JPL, that would be done through exception handling (if this & this happens than this doesn't). In the progs.dat I created for trsp3.bsp there was some serious compatabilaty issues due to one set of monsters being from LTH code which uses a unique touch function and the other set being tied to the Scourge of Armagon code which extends some basic Quake features. I had to split the functionality right down the line using exceptions so that the two code bases didn't interfere with one another. I can see using similar branching methods to keep custent/OUM/SoA from choking one another. 
RPG, 
So many fingers, such a small pie...

And you have no finger prints in all of this? Excuse while I remove the plank. 
 
i still think is easy to be idbase! at least in monster�s :\ 
Why Quoth Is Good... 
Quoth already has three extra base enemies - grenade/shotgun, rocket enforcers and bob. Bob isn't that bad really - he's just a bit of annoying git.

Quoth has a plasma rifle, which can be used to plasma climb and is another weapon that uses up cells. Like the lg though, perhaps a bit powerful for base enemies, but not for Shamblers :)

Quoth has powerful spawning code that lets mappers easily spawn enemies without spawn boxes or any precache models.

Quoth supports hipnotic rotation code should anyone need to use it.

Quoth has the nuke for coop player that could be included if mappers want it.

Quoth has code for arbitrary sound file playback, so we can add extra ambient sounds with no hassle.

Quoth already has all the special hub map code built in, as it was used for Chapters. This might be useful for this pack.

There are a bunch of other nice features too, but I think the above reasons alone are good enough for use of Quoth over another mod.

Also, who knows, maybe some of the non-base monsters would work in a base setting too. The gug might be ok, though some of the others seem out of place if I try to imagine them there.

In addition, it may be possible, since Kell and Necros are still on the scene, to get help/support from them if they have time. Of course, I have no idea about that, but Necros did email me a while ago asking about things I would like to see added (though he didn't respond to my reply). 
Would Be Nice 
if in the grunt spawnflags you can choose what weapon he spawns with, and he then switches to shotgun for close range, possible?

But overall Quoth is very attractive and I would love to use it 
I Agree With Than 
[nt] 
QW Coop 
There has been talk of keeping the maps free of modification in order to make them QW compatable. I assume this must be for some kind of coop play that is done through the servers [...]

Yes. There is a modified server-side qwprogs.dat that allows coop play on any map that uses only id1 progs.dat entities. So anyone with QW and the requisite map(s) installed can connect to the QW server and play coop on the maps without downloading a new qwprogs.dat.

Also, Quoth rocks. 
Well, Well, Well... 
I was trying to rise the issue that, as of today, and as I understood it when I read all the previous posts, there exist no real "rules", no real "directives" for this pack, except the base textures use "concept"...

Anyway, my concern is more to have some consistency to the pack before starting anything and mpa for this project (i.e progs.dat choice, brushes number number or not, etc.. etc.. etc...), while I already started a map using doom3 texture set...

So let's discuss to fix some rules, in order to clarify, and uniquify the work of all mappers involved here.

Also, as Trinca launch the contest, and has the idea, I think he would be the guy who will decide of the rules.. What do you think ? 
 
noone have the power to decide! i think we must get a point! my start isue was to start base maps! but honestly my first idear was biff.wad, than.wad and ikbase with standart progs.dat! becouse SDA team as been very nice to all mapper playing our maps many times in all this years so i still think standart progs.dat will owns!!!

but these were just my first idear... 
Well 
since it's such a large project, don't you guys think that it's time to think about the name for this project, not just base pack? And maybe some kind of a story for it? 
It's 5:30 Am When You Get The Call... 
By 6:00 you're at the secret installation. The commander explains tersely, "It's about the Base Pack Project. The enemy now has textures of their own, and they're using them to retexture OUR maps!" 
Metlslime 
ROTFL 
On Another Note, 
since I have no idea wtf kind of entities we're using, I'm just gonna have to make a standard base map D: 
Stories... 
are overrated!

Dunno if anyone bothered to read the dm3rmx story, but that should explain how I feel about them in Quake. Metlslime seems to have the same idea.

Someone mentioned the idea of having to do something in each map that powers up a slipgate in the main map, which I thought was a decent idea. 
Hmm 
ok so can we all just agree to use Quoth and be done with it? :) 
No 
Quoth has no flashlight 
Inert. 
GO PLAY DOOM 3. 
And LOOOOL, Metl =D 
Maybe we could get a DJ Quake strip as the "story" or something? 
Play It Out In Demo1.dem 
like team fortress did... just make the comic strip textures and then make a demo where the guy strafes past them from left to right, even include sound and ominous music!

I was disappointed lost chapters didn't have demo1.dem. 
Progs 
can we decide this once and for all? I'm at the point where I can start adding gameplay elements to my map but am unsure how to proceed cos I dunno what we are using!

Its problems like this thats gonna kill the map pack so lets sort it!

1) Use Quoth.

2) Get a coder and use our own progs based on what we want (flashlight, mega-enforcer, new grunts etc).

3) Use standard Quake.

4) ??? 
Progs 
1 + 2? 
+ 2 if really necessary. 
Pleeeaase 
1 or 3.

Makes it so much easier for coop over internet. 
 
1 could be nice! 
 
errr 1 or 2 headtrump could help us! he already said that! 
Well 
I'd like to work a bit more on Quoth, to bugfix, tie up loose ends and also add some base-oriented material that we didn't have time for last release. The other two enforcer reskins, forcefields, breakables and whatnot.

I've emailed necros but haven't recieved a reply yet.

If he doesn't want or isn't able to work on Quoth anymore, but I get the most recent source code, I'd be looking for a competent qc person to collaborate with.

Would this be worth pursuing for the base pack? 
 
i think might be kell, i think almost everybody want to work with Quoth u guys did a great job! 
Kell 
that sounds great man! I'd definately be interested in that. 
QUOTH QUOTH QUOTH! 
I vote 1. Quoth.

However, I would LOVE to see some kind of heavy weapons guy enemy added. I could probably knock something up at home, but I only have max 7 and maya 6.5 and no proper exporters. I also hate gmax and don't want to use that.

What do you reckon about a new base enemy, Kell (as in, original model based on the existing guys). I'm thinking of a fat enforcer with a chaingun (nailgun/chainshotgun) with a caved in face mask. Perhaps also a grenade attack of some kind, but it probably isn't worth it in Quoth, because there is alsready an enforcer who fires grenades. 
HWG 
I had a concept for a large bbox base-themed monster, to go along with bob as a base-themed flying monster. His name is Edie ( ED13 ).

Originally I was just gonna scale Armagon down by half in each axis and reskin him a bit, but necros and I were confident enough after the gug etc. that we thought of making him from scratch.
He would basically be a cyborg ogre, recognisable as such from the waist up, with Armagon-type legs below. His ranged attack would be some sort of meaty gun, though a chaingun = powerful hitscan, and it's better to make Quake weapons - especially upper bestiary ones - projectile instead. His melee attack would be a large circular saw, essentially a larger version of the ogre chainsaw.

However, making a new monster from scratch is not a simple task. Sculpting the mesh is rather laborious in qME, but the real work comes with the skinning and animating. The time it would take to do justice to this sort of monster is probably as much time as will take to map for the pack :/

I don't think a 'fat enforcer' is different enough to justify the effort of a whole new model. Also, if it's a heavy-weapons enforcer type you want, that's essentially what the blue enforcer reskin - currently dubbed monster_eliminator - would be. He would fire plasma of the same type, thought not neccessarily the same power, as the Quoth PG. He would also be immune to the player's PG.

The yellow enforcer reskin would wield a flamethrower. 
FUCK YES! 
God that would be insanely wonderful if you did that, Kell. I mean, I'm a big fan of tying things up in general, and Quoth is already so wonderful... Could you add breakable walls? I know it's a wierd thing to get worked up about, but there it is... 
 
kell LTH monster�s are also very good! i like a lot the heaby guys i think LTH dont mind if u or any other could change then a litle i got is msn i can talk with him! the green and red enforcer are quite nice! with some modificacion could be better! 
Chaingun Dude 
could be fun if he has a "spin up time" with an audiable cue, like the shamblers lightning has a visual cue etc... should work fine, then if you made him keep firing in the direction of the player even when he is out of view (but only for a short time) and couple that with breakable pillars and cover = fun.

Or maybe I watch too much matrix... :D

I like both ideas for HWG anyway 
Yeah =D 
This is getting better and better, and the HWG would be a nice addition to the given base baddies set. 
 
my map is progressing normaly now again... "start working again" :) hehehe 
This Weekend 
planning on doing a bit of something this weekend because my wrists aren't so bad now and I can probably risk doing a bit of mapping. Even though I am working on two other non-base maps, I still fancy making a start on my base map or something.

Yeah, and I was just bumping this thread back up before it vanishes into the archives. 
 
u map very good than and u fast but live your life :) dont waste to many time in mapping!!! :) life is to short... 
Than 
don't listen to him, he's crazy!

please go waste your life with mapping! sure, your wrists might become totally fucked and you'll end up like meathook, but that's worth risking for a kickass base map!

on another note, why not do a small base map and release it along with your other two maps as a mini-campaign? ;) 
September Shots 
http://daz.quaddicted.com/

Got a few indoor areas done, few bits still need work and I need to make hi-res versions of some custom textures, but so far so good :) 
DaZ! 
Looking better and better, you! 
 
yes map is realy looking nice :\ omg just mine suck :(

http://trinca.do.sapo.pt/joequake014.jpg
http://trinca.do.sapo.pt/joequake015.jpg

errr my map will be the worse again :( chif :\ 
Trinca 
Don't be to harsh with yourself: you really made impressive progress since your first map.. Really ! Your shots are nice as well ! 
 
errrr JPL sm109 wasn�t a map :) just some walls droped everywere!!! 
So... 
... we you agree that you really made progress man :D 
 
eheh sm109? errr even a monkey can make progress over that map... :) 
:P 
Just drop crates everywhere, Trinca :P
I like the ceiling things on your screenshots! 
Hmm 
With my current schoolwork and regular work, I don't know if I can stay in this. I haven't mapped in a week (that is to say, I haven't had the time to map in a week, not that I would necessarily do it if I did have free time to do so.) So, I dunno, things looks bleak. 
Omg 
Daz, you rule!
Good, and after finding back my confidence... LostMineThing

http://members.home.nl/gimli/gimli23.htm 
Trinca 
both of those shots look distinctly Doom-ish, but in a good way (not putting down Doom, merely that sometimes it can be construed as a negative for a Quake map to look Doomish).

it actually looks kind of functional as an outpost style setup... i would recommend having some basic "mountains" of sort poking up around the edges, so the sides of the sky arent so blatant perhaps.

i like the shadow grid from the ceiling in the second shot. keep it up, you are definitely improving as a mapper. 
Goodwill Zwiffle, 
Put it to the side for now if you feel you need to. You can come back to it over Thanksgiving and Christmas Holiday breaks and still get it in the pack on time. 
 
thks scar3crow, madfox looking good your map :) 
Madfox 
that actually looks good, break up the designs some more though, it looks a bit repetitive n some areas at the moment. 
Madfox 
It does look like it is shaping up to be an interesting twist on the base theme. 
I Hate Those Warnings To Co�rdinates! 
My attempts to continue this map are overdewed with the results of warnings.
At this point I have no, but as soon as I start constructing I get overwhelmed by warnings.
If I could solute these cranky co�rdinates I wouldn't care.
But they appear at points where there are only solid poly's, so I can only guess from where.

Seems as if I can only map in a box. 
 
Madfox, aren't those the exact same shots you put up on this forum a while ago?
It's funny to see all the older projects back on the forum page. indian summer, Arcane wizard. so much enthusiasm! Hope this one stays on track and is as glorious as it has the potential to be.
Amen. 
Drew 
I overlooked post #126 and as there was noreply
I thought I hadn't post them.
Sometimes it helps posting double for getting respond, as others see them 2. 
 
i think at this point we got these guys working in base maps!!!

Daz, me, cardo, inertia, madfox, headthump, biff, metlslime, starbuck, Text_Fish and JPL

hope many follow! :) 
Yeah. 
We rock, and the rest of youse suck. 
Heh... 
i'm working on rubicon2, which is technically a base map, but not part of this pack.

My only contribution to this pack is snarky comments. 
Me Too 
I started something last weekend. So far I just have some ideas and a cargo lift shaft thing, but I'll upload some screens when there is more to show.

Metl: did you recover the data on your hdd in the end or is it a new rubicon 2? 
Than: 
No, I lost everything on that drive. I found a backup of rubicon2 from 2003 and i'm recreating my work since then. Luckily I only had two main mapping spurts on rub2 after that backup was made. Unluckily one of them was building a complicated outdoor area which I feel obligated to recreate since it was cool.

And all the textures, models, and code haven't changed since then either, so none of that is lost (except for the stuff Adquedit deleted when it went haywire, but that happened back in like 2001 or 2002.) 
 
ok good work then guys ;) 
Yep 
i'm working on pbrsp2, which is technically a base map, but not part of this pack.

My only contribution to this pack is snarky comments.


Fixed for me. 
;) 
cant wait for pbrsp2 your maps rulezzzz 
MadFox 
You aren't using Qoole are you? Qoole is only good for very simple maps due to floating point errors. 
Metl 
youre not still using Adquedit are you ? Fimg is apparently much much better (Im not the target audience but every person Ive linked it to has since showered praise upon FrikaC for it).

http://quakeexpo.com/booth.php?id=8&page=33 
Scar3crow: 
no, I uninstalled adquedit right after that happened.

Then I wrote my own command line tools to convert pcx<->lmp, and was working on pcx<->spr tools but never finished them.

This was before Fimg existed; nowadays I would use Fimg if I needed it again. 
Getting Into It (+request For Necros) 
I did a bit more mapping at the weekend and am getting into the map a bit more now. I'm going to make this a pretty small map, but hopefully it will be interesting enough to be worth including in the pack. I had some shots, but didn't bring them to work with me, so I'll do that soon.

Necros: If you are reading this, do you reckon you could make trigger_command not print the message - at the moment I get "r_wateralpha 0.2" printed to the screen when the map starts. Is there a way to avoid this? 
 
a small map from u :) is muchhhhhhhh better than a map from me :) 
Some Early Shots 
I have a few screenshots (all of the same bit) to show. Here is my current progress:

http://than.leveldesign.org/files/fitz0010.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/fitz0012.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/fitz0015.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/fitz0017.jpg

The theme is a flooded base. The lift shaft you see with water in here will be all filled up with debris floating around and will be lit better by the time it is finished, but that's all I've got done so far.

I'm making glass from water brushes with a plane texture and skip textured func_wall covering it up, so glass will be fullbright and nontransparent in software. I can always take it out I suppose, but I quite like it.

There is an entity in Quoth that lets the mapper set options like r_wateralpha with a trigger, though it unfortunately prints a message to the screen. I am using this for the water in the map. 
Stunning! 
Wow. Does not look like old pixel-Quake anymore. Nice! 
Than 
nice work at faking glass 
 
i need faking glass also :\ how can i make that? 
Killer Glass. 
Please leave it like that, than. 
Fake Glass (only Works In GL Engines) 
this is (a crap explanation of) how to do it.

First you need to get Tyrann's skip tool. I don't know where to download it, and I don't have it at work so I can't upload it for you. Ask someone in #terrafusion. You will probably also need to use Tyrann's other tools to be sure that there won't be errors in game as a result of using remove skip.

You will also need a texture the wad you are using named skip. It should be 64x64. While you are at it, create a liquid texture for the glass named *water20 (afaik, *water is all you need, and what comes next doesn't matter, so *waterglass is probably ok too.) This texture should just be plain 64x64 in whatever colour you want the glass to be. You can't add detail to the glass texture, because it will warp in game.

Create a window shape and then create a brush inside it (whatever shape you like) and apply your *water20 glass texture. If you compile now and set wateralpha to 0.2-0.5 you will have a nice window effect... but you can still see and move through it.

This is where skip comes in. Simply create a brush to fill the hole for the window, apply the skip texture and then turn it into a func_wall. This is better than the old glass hack using a trigger with damage set to -1 as the collision detection for it can be an arbitrary shape rather than a bounding box.

Now when you compile your map, add the line skip.exe <mapfile> after the bsp stage and it should remove any face with the skip texture from the bsp. It's best to just stick to using this texture on brush entities, and not the world, but sometimes it can be ok.

Now the glass effect should be complete and you can see, but not shoot or move through it.

The only problem is that enemies can't see through it, but you can always trigger them to react when the player is in range. Also, you need wateralpha to be set to a suitable value (obviously GL only), which can be done in-game with the quoth trigger_command entity.

If you look at the map file for czg05, you will see that he has glass (without the water effect) that can't be shot through, but I am near certain that the enforcer that is placed behind can see through it. Perhaps there is a trigger or small gap, but I don't know.

EXPERIMENT! 
Note: 
I recommend not using the word "water" in the texture name. Use something like *glass instead.

Why? All textures starting with * will warp like a liquid, but only textures starting with *water or *04water will get the water ambient sound -- which you don't want for glass anyway.

See also: http://www.celephais.net/stuff/texturefaq.htm 
 
cool stuff than. One thing: don't start the texture name with *water, just use *
*water also emits a watery sound effect. You may not have noticed in you own map because of the proximity of the glass to ordinary water. 
Metlslime 
ftw 
Good Screenshots 
It gives an idea of shaders. I think when you use a trigger_once with health setting one could make the glass breakable.

I'm trying something with a brush I'd like to make explode, like an explodable wall. But it needs chunks of func_train to make it fit well. 
Than 
Looks cool man, really lovinmg the glass!

Keep ip the good work! MOFO!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
RE Glass 
thanks for the info about the naming - I'll sort that out tonight.

I discovered also that it is possible to make glass that appears to contain water without having the sides of the water visible where the glass is, and at the same time keeping the glass looking the same thickness as the other brushes. You can actually apply skip to water brushes and they will still behave like water is there are enough surfaces with the water texture on. I don't know exactly how this works, but if you bring the water up to where you want a window, the make the side of the water brush that should be against the window have a skip texture, leave a small gap and then make your glass it works pretty nicely. I made a rotfish tank last night as a test for this and it looks cool (probably won't be included in my map). Theoretically it is possible to make an underwater base level with glass windows and dry interiors now. 
Nice! 
I want to see a howto. 
OMG... 
...the holy graal. Than found it!!! A tute following release of your level would be most welcome. 
Than 
Skip tool can be downloaded there: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=37925 see post #3

And thanks for the infos :P 
 
i put the program in 4� program and compile it!!! but skip texture apear :( 
Trinca 
I think skip.exe have to run after TxQBSP... Not at the end of the TxQBSP/VIS/Light process... 
SKip Toolage 
I had made fake glass for IMP1SP1, but didn't use the skip tool -- can't remember how I did it, though. Fr3n if you're out there, I need you to tell me again ;D

P.S. : An underwater base would SO ROCK. Watched that BioShock demo last night, and it had me thinking about applying that sort of concept to a mappable game (apparently BioSHock will be using the Unreal3 engine -- eww). 
 
JPL after TxQBSP there is not .bsp file :) 
Trinca 
For sure there is one ! Check your tmpQuArK/maps folder after a TxQBSP run, you'll see that .bsp file will exist .. 
Err 
yeah JPL is right, txQBSP creates the bsp from the map file, if it isnt outputting one then there is the problem with the map.

Run the skip tool on the bsp before light and vis and everything should work fine. 
Cool 
Kindly requesting a more in-depth tutorial, Than. When time permits 'course. 
Ouch... 
I don't know why, but after TxQBSP, and then skip, the mapp is full of leaks.... Damned, what happened? 
JPL 
the skip tool shouldn't produce any leaks, as it only removes the skip texture from the visible hull. do you mean HOMs by any chance? because they appear if you don't make the skip structure a func_x. 
URL 
There seems to be something wrong with my host at the moment, but when it comes back online the download link is here: http://disenchant.net/files/temp/skippy-0.0.zip

Usual disclaimer: this tool is an ugly hack and may or may not actually work correctly. 
Neg!ke 
OK, I got 2 sad effects:

I tested the skip tool with a un-sealed map: and I got leaks, and HOM (right this is the main issue...) And when I say leaks, it means wherever I am in the map: I fall for ever...

I also tested with a sealed map (thinking it was coming from the leaks mentionned above)... but there, I got HOMs everywhere, and I get stucked... completly stucked...

So, wtf ? Any idea ? I followed the method given by than, but it seems to doesn't work very well.. Am I missing something ? 
Tyrann 
Give us a link to that idbase map, while you're at it? 
Biff 
Ok, I know what you're after: http://disenchant.net/files/maps/actaltrz.zip 
LOL 
Excellent stuff, you -- but not what I what I'd seen in the screenies ;D 
JPL 
did you make the skip brush a func_wall? 
Some New Shots (and Info On Windows) 
Ok, I got a bit of mapping done over the weekend, though not as much as I had hoped because I kept fiddling with details all the time and compiling after every little change. I need to get out of the habit of that...

http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s01.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s02.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s03.jpg

I had to enable r_novis when taking these shots, because using skip for the windows is starting to cause problems now.

There is another way to make clear yet solid (to shots and movement) glass, which is to use a trigger and give it health. This works but the trigger bleeds when shot. There is a way to stop that happening (set health to -1?) but I am not sure exactly how.

Anyway, I can't use the trigger method in my map because some of the windows are on sloped architecture and triggers have only bounding box, not BSP collision detection and I also need to use skip for some faces of the water brushes so that the side of the water is not rendered up against the glass.

I am hoping that I can tweak things to get rid of all the portal bugs that skip is causing, but if aguirre or tyrann are working on anything on the skip front, I would love to know about it and TEST ;)

By the way, if anyone is in need of even more idbase textures, here is the wad I am using:

http://than.leveldesign.org/files/060925_idbase_than.zip

This contains the original id and hipnotic textures some modified by NotoriosRay, Gibbie, Biff, myself and others. I'm getting into the habit of uploading this stuff for backup purposes, but I might as well share this stuff because it will come in handy for everyone. 
Than 
looks cool. 
Bambuz 
Yes, skip brush is a func_wall, and I created a single color *glass texture... I think I'm not lucky there, while I followed than quick tutorial... :( 
 
What problems is it causing you exactly? 
Tron 
see #277 
Screenshot 1 
did you intentionally align the trim around the window so that the bright yellowish part point up towards the light? I'm guessing you did and it's a nice detial but I'm still not a 100% sure I think it's better than having them the same way all around since me eye seems to be drawn to whre the upper diagonal faces meet the vertical ones!

This was probably the most stupid post nitpicking about details ever...map is looking interesting as always when you're involved. 
Than?!? 
There are no other posts of beta shots but your own in at least the previous 25 posts. 
But If The Point 
is to draw attention to that awesome fucking cool shot and the fact we are a bunch of dicks for not raving about it 20 plus posts thick into discussing it, I completely understand ;) 
Hell 
those are some awesome shots - enough to where i almost made an i3d news post, but decided i shouldnt as... well, i3d is the qc place, rather than the mapping place. (though for community stuff and ocassionally a download it will get a news post, such as speedmapping downloads)

but yes, these are quite excellent, and im not doing my favoring it any justice. its motherfucking cool looking. 
?? 
I didn't post that!

Someone else posted it under my name somehow. I suspect it is speeds, as he seemed to be stalking me on irc a while ago ;) 
Shit! 
Those shots look sex as fuck. Does anyone else have new pics of their maps? Daz? 
Shit! 
Those shots look sexy as fuck. Does anyone else have new pics of their maps? Daz? 
Shit... 
 
More Shots And More Talk (+important Stuff) 
keeps this alive and gets everyone motivated! Come on ;)

By the way, did we agree on some mapping standards. Everyone is mapping for Quoth, right? What about engines? My map will be playable in software, but the player won't be able to see through windows, which spoils it a bit. I suggest we should just pick a base engine to recommend players use for all maps and stick to it. I vote for Fitzquake because it is the engine most people already use and is the recommended engine for Quoth. Any engines that don't support fog and the option to disable waterwarp will make my map look a bit weird (wobbly windows and might look a bit bland and dark).

Anyone still using only software? tochrisquake supports transparency in sw I think, so I will try and test with that.

Also, make sure you all pick a cd track from the Quake cd (2-11, excluding 3 because it's the intermission music.) 
:| 
Also, make sure you all pick a cd track from the Quake cd (2-11, excluding 3 because it's the intermission music.)

So you have something against intermission maps? Are you some kind of racist?... err, mapist?... err, musicist?... err 
 
than in this new bversion u made some textures are missing :( from your last version... just notest becouse i was using the last u give me :\ now got some textures missing in my map :)

thks god i didn�t replace then :p 
Almost Certainly Just Duplicate Textures... 
There were some brown wall panels that I removed because they were also in biff's wad, which I merged with. I must have deleted my versions of the textures and you are probably missing those. That should be all though. If you want to add any extra textures, just open the wad in texmex and grab any texture with than in the name and put it in. Another way is to copy all and paste them into the wad you are using and delete any textures named UnNamedxx as these are duplicates.

RPG: The intermission track is only a couple of minutes long and loops noticeably, which is why I am suggesting people don't use it. Also, it would suck if everyone used the base theme (track 6, used on all the base levels in Quake) and that was on every level. 
 
thks than :) i will do that!!! 
 
thks Than already add then ;)

http://trinca.planetaclix.pt/idbase_than.rar 
Than 
Yeah, I'll be posting mine with your stuff added soon -- it also includes a slew of Asaki's stuff and some big door textures gibbie did. 
Teh Latest. 
http://biff.leveldesign.org/files/idbase_ultimate.zip

Added the latest from than, notoriousray, gibbie, asaki and myself (the cute little "skill" textures). Deleted the Myrmidon and Daedalus specific tex I had in there, since they were taking up nameplaces that can be covered otherwise in the future. Hopefully this will be the start towards less confusion with base textures... 
Don't Eat My Mislignements... You Func_nickname 
I really typed that!
My newboss works, now I'm trying Shalrat to ovulate eggs with vorebabes.
Can these changed progs become a collective dat?

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quake47.jpg 
More Glass Stuff 
I made a little tutorial on making glass last night, but whilst I was doing it, I found that I could not replicate the effects in my main map, and just suffered the same problems as everyone else. I don't know why there it won't work in a simple map, but works in a much more complicated level. Oh well.

So I continued the tutorial using another method and wrote a little text file trying to explain it. Here: http://than.leveldesign.org/files/glassTest.zip

There are two levels included and both are very similar. The second one uses a simple method for doing water and glass together that is practically fool proof, and the first one uses the original method but with the exception that I couldn't get the skip texture to work on the water brush so I left it as water. Here is another shot of my map to show how it should look (looks like all the other shots :) http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s04.jpg

Anyway, I hope this helps someone, but I also hope we don't get tons of people using this effect in their basepack maps because I wanted mine to stand out as being a cool flooded level.

Biff: cheers for the textures, I will compare it to my wad tonight (that sounds deviant somehow) and replace textures in my map with any that are missing.

I think that when the pack is about done (mid-december) we should get all the idbase levels together and make any missing high res textures so that the pack is (partially, as it would only be idbase maps) compatible with Starbuck's textures... If you aren't already checking your map with his textures as you go, of course! 
Than 
Thank you: I will read the tutorial, and check the map file very carefully this evening. You rock ! 
Than 
to answer your question from #282:
to stop trigger-windows from bleeding, simply let them be fired by a trigger_once the player touches when he spawns. 
 
another important stuff!!! who will join all maps toguether for release???

i vote for Kell since he have experience on it :) and since Quoth mod is work from him! 
 
biff nice pack it were some textures missing :\ i hadd to add some more again... from last link i gave in this forum! file is 8464 kb now :) omg so many textures... i will have to make another base map after this one... 
 
fuck!!! biff your .wad still crash my Quark... :( i think u got some texture that fuckup my Quark :( 
 
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr last than version is crashing my Quark also :| fuck i didn�t made any backup of last wad :(((((((((((((((((((( 
 
holy fuck! after 1 fucking wast of hour..."could be mapping..." found the texture that crash Quark :\ is those imitacion of health :( now is solved and i can start using all of those sexy textures :) thks Than and Biff for most base sexy textures ever!!! 
Trinca 
you can easily extract your lost wadfile by opening an earlier version of your bsp in Quark. 
 
i now Madfox but my old one was much bigguer :) :p dont u use mirc Madfox? come one of these days to #terrafusion in quakenet 
Merging Levels?? 
Trinca: we aren't merging the levels together, but there was the idea of having the theme of each level apparent from its entrance in the start map. 
 
merging level i think is something that need many time :\ becouse of gameplay isues! i think if anybody make a small start map that close the door after that level is finish could be nice!!! i think the map of phait PH8dm2 could give a nice start map :\ if he dont mind since he ofered the .map file! someone expirient could make the map for start easaly! 
 
By the way, did we agree on some mapping standards. Everyone is mapping for Quoth, right?

Heads up. Headthump and I are working on the Quoth base content. We are planning to include the blue and yellow ( plasma and flamethrower ) enforcers, though haven't started on them yet, a flashlight, and edie. Plus breakables, force fields and a couple of new explodebox types.

It's going to take us time to get through it all, and there are still things we need someone to do: sounds and animations. If you want this content for the base pack, some allowance is going to have to be made to incorporate it into your maps before you finish them. I wish we could go faster, but we're doing the best we can atm.

than: stonking shots, as always :) 
 
u already did so much for this small comunity Kell :) THKS! i think everybody is making there maps for Quoth! i�m already adding monsters :) but since 2 new one will apear i will replace then easaly in map! i like to map and add monster�s at same time! but after i finish all layout. 
 
but after i finish all layout i will fix all the rooms to detail as more as possible!

sorry pressed enter before finish my sentence in last post :\ 
Kell, Necros, Headthump, Trinca... EVERYONE.. 
I love you all. Seriously. The Quake community still rocks.

*sniff*

Anyway, back on topic. I was wondering if there was a possibility of enhanced func_trains. Basically, I was thinking of a trigger_relay style trigger entity that can set the destination of a func_train so that you can have them start and stop and move to different floors. I've no idea how difficult this would be to implement, but it sounds fairly trivial.

Also, Kell, how do you make your monsters? Are you using QMe entirely? I've seen preaches GMax tutorial, but really I want to be able to whip stuff up in Maya 6/6.5 or Max 7 and export it to Quake, but understandably there don't seem to be any exporters. I'm in awe that you created such fantastic models in QMe but do you know of any way of doing what I want so that I can contribute something for possible inclusion? (else I'll just make a separate monster and release it with a new version of dm3rmx or apsp1).

BTW, Kell, if you can give us a few more details about how the new enemies are planned to work etc. then we could plan out our use of them and just slot them in fairly easily when the time comes (I would hope!) 
Cells... 
Ok, so the lightning gun and plasma rifle are both f**king powerful weapons. Enforcers are great base monsters and we are all probably going to have a lot in our maps.

I'll cut to the chase. Does anyone else think that the number of cells in enforcer backpacks should be reduced to 2 or 3 instead of 5 to avoid the problems with cell abundancy that dm3rmx suffered from (even though there were no cell ammo boxes)? Maybe it's ok, but with a tanked up lg or (to a lesser extent because it fires projectiles) plasma gun, there is a lot less panic and fear in any fight because those weapons are so powerful.

Any comments. Kell? 
Hooray For Forcefields! 
They're pretty much vital to my map design, so thankyou. Will they be similar to the sort I've seen in other mods? I.E. A wall of coloured particles. If so I assume they'll be implemented in a similar fashion? 
The Func_train Thing I Mentioned... (+another Idea) 
I was thinking the trigger's target would always be the name of the func_train you wanted to affect, and it would have another key set to the targetname of the destination path_corner you wanted to send the train to. Give it a delay key too, so you needn't also use a relay to set delay, and it's all good :)

The func_train would obviously need to be modified to handle this stuff, but would otherwise behave exactly the same as before if the mapper wasn't using this trigger.

Additionally, it would be nice if path corners could set the speed of the train OR if the trigger could set the speed. Also, changing the sound the train uses with the trigger would be a cool effect. It would certainly open the doors to all kinds of crazy elevator mechanics etc.

target cycling triggers would also be AWESOME. One trigger fires target1, the second trigger fires target2, the third target3 etc. Upon reaching a specified number the trigger could reset to the first target or stop firing its targets.

Dunno why I didn't think of these things earlier. They seem simple to put in, and would have a lot of possible uses, but I don't know how simple they really would be.

Also, this is a bit off topic, since it would be nice for my non-base Quoth map... any chance of a lavaball and/or cthon fireball (for massive damage) shooter type?

I'm just greedy, aren't I? Sorry :( 
Cells Idea And Modelling With Max 
Perhaps a possible fix to the abundance of cells which power nasty weapons is to give the player a low level weapon that consumes cells early in the map, and make sure they need to use it if they don't want ammo to end up too tight. The best example I can think of is giving the player a copy of the regular enforcer blaster, that takes one cell to fire two laser bolts. This does the same damage per cell as the lightning gun, but at a much reduced rate and not hitscan, so it's basically a shotgun/nailgun level weapon.

To than, I'd suggest you grab a copy of this MD3 export plugin.
http://pages.videotron.com/browser/Downloads/3d_max/plugins/Max6ExportMD3.zip
It says max6, and I've got no way of testing this, but I believe that it should also work in max 7. With this you can use the same pipeline as the tutorials I posted, export the finished Md3 from Max, and convert it to mdl with Quark. I really recommend this route as Quark is the only tool I know that does proper UV maps for mdl format. It might be possible to do the same for maya if there's an md3 exporter for it. 
Hey Than, 
Kell is the ultimate arbitrator of what goes into the QuakeC and what doesn't fit the Quoth design, but I thought I would mention we have talked about the addtion of some of the entity types from Peroxide's Extras mod and among the new functions train ones similar to the what you have elaborated.

Thnks for da Luv. 
The Word Of The Day Is 
'are' as in 'among the new functions are train ones . . .' 
Than 
you have mail 
Kell 
offtopic. but check your mail. there should be a mail I send you a long long time ago. 
Progress (no Shots) 
Just a quick note to say that I got a little mapping done at the weekend, though not as much as I had hoped. I still made some good progress and am well on target for the current planned release date of Christmas.

How is everyone else getting on? 
Got A Good Chunk 
of code done this weekend though my eyes are shot
right now. You would probably not believe what is necessary to get it up to functioning but I am optimistic. Also, feel free to email me with any suggestions.

As for mapping I've got a good layout planned, and if the code is in good shape by the beginning of November, I will contribute a map, but other wise I'll just concentrate on this end. 
 
mine is going pretty wel but after i finish my map i will fix the first part again :\ need many fixes and details! but will be ready on time for sure... 
On My Own... 
I'm not sure to be ready on time... sorry but between my job and my family, I have problems to find time for mapping these last days... So don't expect on me for Xmas... At least, if I'm ready, it will be a good surprise... sorry... 
New Shots 
Got pics of the latest finished section here: http://biff.leveldesign.org/index.php/?p=54 Thinking I'll have it ready on time, but not that far into it as it is. 
 
JPL dont wory... :) family is always first!!! if u and anyother can�t get it on time we wait a litle longer, if is only u i think we could release the pack and add your later! thats my opinion i dont now i think we all must agree! 
Trinca 
Thanks, but I think you have to respect the deadline... otherwize you would have to wait till next year ;P 
 
i think will be Kell to get togueter all maps!!! at least i hope... he got much more expirience then me and write much better english... :) 
Uhhhhh 
hey guys... :P

i feel i should explain why i have been completly absent from this thread, even though i've posted sporadically in others...

basically, i was gone for a while during the summer, and when i got back, this thread already had like 100~ unread posts so i just avoided it...
i didn't know the thread took a turn into quoth territory, and only got an email kell sent ages ago yesterday.

so yeah, anyway, kell and i got together and chatted a bit, and stuff got done with more to follow and all that jazz... :P

i should be able to do whatever animations for edie are needed and what not.

i dunno if i'll actually map for this or not... although i do have a base map that's about 70% done structurally. we'll see i suppose.

oh, and btw, there are some damn sweet map shots posted in here!
also, that work with the fluids simulating glass is fantastic, and rather clever, than :) n1 ^_^ 
 
glad u enter the ship necros with map or no map your presence is always good ;) 
Necros 
No jumping puzzles, though -- okay? ;D 
Some Progress 
Being mapping a bit here and there, and have got a little more done. Mostly I have just been tweaking stuff and putting the early gameflow in so that I can check if it feels right and that the areas I have built are getting enough use.

I had a couple of shots, but they are badly compressed and I forgot to resize them down from 1920x1200, so I will post them tomorrow or something.

It's worth mentioning that I had a few problems with water and glass, but I found that you can often get around problems by changing the way the glass is built. I can't really be bothered to explain it, but if you change the brushes the glass is composed of, sometimes qbsp splits things in a different way and you get rid of HOMs and all that kind of crap. 
Than 
Please explain !!! 
 
Trinca 
more angles 
 
will try but time is running short :\ and still got many stuff to fix in map! 
Trinca 
I like the lift. If you like I will make you a version of that texture that merges into your floor texture, or a more standard idbase floor.

I agree with Nitin though, you could do well to put a few more angles in your map - particularly some sloped walls.

Also, I thought that the floor looked a bit bare, so maybe you could break it up a bit by adding some gratings and small raised sections.

Wouldn't mind seeing some Fitzquake shots by the way... Fitz is the only Engine that gets close to the lighting style of software Quake, and your lighting looks a little bland.

By the way, there is plenty of time. We have ages. Also, there is no ETA on the new Quoth content, and I think most of us want to wait for that before releasing the pack, so the current Christmas release date is the earliest the pack is likely to come out, and even that is a little optimistic, so relax and don't rush ;) 
 
;) thks than! i will rebuild the areas again more in ceeling and floor 
Slipsp1 
you can see brand new screens here:

www.qwplayers.org/inertia/slip1.jpg 
Cunts 
Inertia 
Needs some more texture/colour variation I think, but build quality looks good. 
Inertia 
Needs more rivets. 
Heh 
I told you it needed more variation. 
Errr... 
...am I correct in thinking that's an SP rebuild of your killer DM map? 
On The New Quoth Content And Deadlines... 
we tend to work with the 'when it's done' approach... i don't really know the score on what you guys have been working towards on release dates, but i think i can safely say you have quite a bit of time to work on your maps before the content is ready.

we have some nifty stuff planned, but it will (of course) require lots of work.

btw, i think it was Than that asked about custom trains to control things like movement speed and such...
it's actually undocumented, but that code is already in the current version of quoth. i think we forgot to add it in the dev notes, in which case, it was probably my fault, so apologies for that.

anyway, func_train:

The func_train has also been modified with certain bits of code
from the custents mod pack.

TRAIN_SMOOTH Makes the train move smoothly through path_corners that have no wait time on them.

TRAIN_BLOCKABLE Allows the smooth trains to be blocked in the regular fasion of stopping and applying damage instead of pushing the blocking entity out of the way like it would do otherwise.

Keys:
"speed"
moving speed, default is 100
"dmg"
damage, default is 2
"sounds"
1 = ratchet metal
"duration"
specifies the amout of time for the train to take in going from corner to corner. Set to 0 if you want to use "speed".
"noise"
allows you the specify a wav file for the stop sound.
"noise1"
allows you the specify a wav file for the moveing sound.


path_corner:
func_train specifics:
"speed"
makes the train move on to the next corner at this rate.

"duration"
makes the train move on to the next corner and get there in this number of seconds. If this is not 0, this will be used over the speed variable.

"event"
is the target name of the entity to trigger when the train gets to it.

"message"
is the message to display when the event is triggered.


also, if a path_corner has 'wait -1' you can retrigger the train to get it moving again. 
Append: 
TRAIN_SMOOTH and TRAIN_BLOCKABLE refer to spawnflags 1 and 2 respectively.

but i actually am not sure if that code was implemented or not... try it, but if it crashes the game, well, that's your answer. :P 
I Had A Feeling 
that there was some advanced func_train stuff in there, as I looked at ne=marb the other night and noticed you have a lift that speeds up and slows down.

Still not exactly how I would like it done, but if that's the most that is possible for the pack then I am happy with that :) 
what more did you want besides variable speeds, travel speed based on time, ability to retrigger, etc? 
Just Enough To Read... 
wolfedit.

hmmm :)

git. 
Wrong Thread. 
Anyway, I just wanted go to path_corner X and the ability to change sounds.

As for advanced trains with some cool effects (moving water etc.) you might want to check out poxs extras (if you didn't already)

http://developer.chaoticbox.com/quake.php?tab=poxgoodies 
More Shots And Stuff 
These are a few days old shots, but of pretty much finished areas. Although there are still lots of little ends to tie up here and there, I feel like I am making good progress toward the end of the map now - although I'm not quite sure how large the end is going to be :)

http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s05.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s06.jpg
http://than.leveldesign.org/files/basepack_s07.jpg

The first two are of the same area, and the last one is a little corridor bit off the stairwell that sits at the side of the main liftshaft (well, who knows, the lifts could break and you'd be stuck several feet underground reading old copies of National Geographic for 3 years before someone fixes it)

I will try and get some more mapping done tonight, and also collect my textures and modified bits into a wad so that anyone using them can update their wad with them. I think it's better than posting the entire idbase wad each time :) 
 
thks Than u rock! petty i already have to many textures in my map :\

shots look great! good work! 
 
oh wel i open #base in quakenet if u guys want to talk about our project

cheers

Trinca 
Damnit. 
I went in there, and was the only one there. Not even a bot. I am so sad. 
:( 
I can't use the net at home, and can't use IRC at work, so I won't be in there for a few weeks at least. Once the net is sorted out, I will join.

Had a few days break from mapping, but will probably resume at the weekend :) 
Well 
now my base map becomes 6Mb and I am using the extras_p4 mod. I added a hiprotate.qc and a earthquake.qc as well as my newboss.qc

I wondered if this map could fit in the basepak as the use of the Quothpak seems to be the final option? 
 
Quite 
najs... is that weird computer thingy underwater? It's cool in it's construction, I think you've really made big improvements as a mapper. 
The Waterworks Pics Look Good, 
I like that last shot a lot. Geometry and texture line up is quite effective there. 
Neat 
Looks a bit like SoA episode 1 -- and that's a good thing! 
 
thks guys! i think i progress a lot in this last part of map! :\ but now it looks like was other mapper that did area after silver key :) must rebuild the others area to :\ or will look like were two mappers working in this map and isn�t true!!!

Bambuz, JPL and HeadThump gave me real good advices thks guys for all the help!!!

P.S--> Bambuz go map to Q1 you lazy bitch! :) 
 
lol was at my partner of work, computer! :\ 
Nice Work, Trinca 
Looking cool. Like the underwater computer that others pointed out.

Some suggestions:


SHOT1
try raising the height of the plain textured part of the ceiling and making sure it isn't as brightly lit. I think it will make the room feel a bit bigger, and also should improve the look of the ceiling. Also, consider putting a lip around the hole in the ceiling so that it doesn't just blend into the plain textured part.

SHOT2
Looks cool :D

SHOT3
I just think the inside of the pipe could use more detail. Perhaps makethe parts where you have the lights stick inwards a little bit to get some more shape. I can't explain it very easily - sorry :/ Perhaps also think about making the bend in the pipe have a small 45 degree bevel on the inside too - and again, lighgting looks a little plain - maybe it's joequake that is doing it, but try putting a light entity where each visible light is (in addition to what you already have) and set the brightness to 400 and attenuation ("wait" key) to 8 or so. It should give you nice highlights around the actual lightsources, which should make the lighting more interesting.

Keep up the good work :)

btw, I can't use my usb drive at work any more thanks to a security crackdown, so I can't bring in screenshots from home to upload. Basically, I can't show you what I've been up to with my level of late (not much :) 
Than, 
Try emailing stuff to your work address as attachments. 
 
inertia how is slipsp1 going? :) 
Nice Work Trinca 
Screenshots are good, you're making progress.

My map suffers hard from HOM's.
Had to go back halfway to improve the brushes. 
Trinca 
Nice work: you really made real improvements regarding your previous releases... As I told you (during your scampie blues...) you would have made a big mistake stopping mapping qt this time... Furthermore after reading the few comments above, I now conviced that you are not a newbi any more, even if all can be perfected... In anyway: Keep it up !! 8D

BTW, I think I will be ready for Xmas... with a smaller map than I was expecting... Unfortunately, my map will not be based on Quoth pack... Sorry for this... but I think the result is quite cool... I'll post screenshots later on... 
OMG... 
I read my post, and it is full of typos... Too much beer tonight.. Maybe I would have posted it on the drunk thread.. doh !!! :P 
 
zomg :) thks ;)

JPL u can get drunk with beer? :) i have to drink a lotttttttttttttttt 
Trinca 
I'm very sober since 3 or 4 years.. so with only 1 beer, I already feel the drunkiness coming.... 
 
heheh :) i start getting drunk after 8 or 10 :\ 
Slipsp1 
do not talk of the monolith before it is deployed 
Some Shots... 
Drunkiness is over... Here are some very early screenshots from my Base map... I hope to finish it in the delay, for Xmas... It remains the ultimate room to build, located just after the GK Door actually, where the last big figth will take place..

http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH0.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH1.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH2.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH3.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH4.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Screenshots/BTH5.JPG

Please feel free to comment ;) 
Jpl 
very interesting. looks clean... would like to test it in the engine to get the feel of the scale. 
Solid Work JPL 
I had to ramp up the brightness on my monitor to see the pics. Quake engines darken screenshots too much. Once that was done, the lighting brings out the brush work. Laser beam looks intense in BTH4. 
 
looks very evil!!! :) and that is good ;) can wait to get my hands on that :p 
Ramp Up The Brightness?? 
it looked heavily washed out to me :)

jpl, scale looks slightly off, could just be me though. 
Shot Brigthness... 
.. has been already increased by 20% I did that many times before and the result was fine.. Maybe the monitor settings also have influence on the visual results...
In anyway, thanks for the comments ;) 
Looking Good... (plus Other Stuff!) 
Looks cool, JPL. I hope you will be able to compile it before the deadline ;)

Wait... did someone else already use that joke earlier on? :/

Since the Quoth guys are unlikely to be hitting the previous Christmas deadline, as Necros mentioned previously, perhaps we should use the extra time to do some thorough testing of each others maps?

I think maybe we should aim for christmas for beta and then test the hell out of all the maps and use whatever remaining time we have to polish everything.

I always seem to make stuff a bit too dark, but then, I always have a nice bright screen, so perhaps those people with dark screens just need to increase their gamma ;) Anyway, this is one of the many things I think we should check for, along with build consistency (try and make sure all the maps are up to a certain technical standard) as well as the usual gameplay and bugs stuff.

Thoughts?

Also, what are everybody's thoughts on support for Starbuck's enhanced texture set? I think that if we are using multiple sets and creating new textures too it is going to be a lot of work to ensure everything is fully textured in nice high res textures, so maybe we should forget about it for now and just make sure it all works properly in standard resolution. Also, what are we doing with regard to engine support/recommendation? We need to make sure everything works on at least one common engine, but ideally it would all work on all engines. My map works in software, but you can't see through the glass, and there is no fog, but it is still playable. I can get rid of the glass effect if everybody is really desperate to have full 100% compatibility with software, but I don't think it is worth it. Anyone still use sw? 
Bleh 
I dont think I will have my map finished by Xmas, I've decided I need to re-do some areas as its very chaotic at the moment and the style tends to vary a lot from room to room (in true daz q1sp fashion, lol) so Im gonna take some more time with it to get it right.

It will still use the quoth ents etc but it will be a bit late is all. 
Re: Enhanced Textures. 
I agree than. My map [or 'bits of map' rather] looks terrible when I play it on my main Quake install because the unenhanced textures look almost like fullbrights next to Starbucks'. It would be cool to eventually make it all enhanced, but until we know exactly which textures appear in the pack and sort out problems with duplicates/doubles that won't be feasible.

I have been noting down the names of any non-ID textures I use, just for future reference.

Oh, and I don't know any players who prefer Software quake to GL/Fitz/etc. There certainly aren't enough to warrent sacrificing your cool glass effect. 
Oh And SB Textures 
I've only used textures which have a hi-res version as well, apart from biffs awesome new idbase hanger door textures =) 
Re: Stuff 
We've got four new monsters to advanced beta. Meaning: we're going to put them together in a temporary pak1.pak and send it to those of you mapping for the base pack so you can begin incorporating them into your maps. I'll log on to the irc channel for those that can make it, and I'll email to anyone else. Let me know where you'd like to get your copy.

Breakables have been started, but there's work to be done for debris models and sounds.

Oh, your general purpose shooter is in than ;)

We have, unfortunately, hit a size limit on the progs. According to the brains on Inside3D this is not neccessarily insurmountable, but there is still going to be some sort of practical limit on how much more we can add to Quoth.
necros is working on optimisation, and we will get at least the essential base content in.

On engine compatibility:
I don't see the need to make the pack compatible with all engines. Fog, glass and bumped limits are perfectly acceptable things to take advantage of IMO. But the maps should all be compatible with one engine overall, and that engine is, pretty obviously I think, FitzQuake.

On Starbuck's Textures:
I had considered the idea of including the textures - with SB's permission - into the Quoth pak1 so they would be available for all players automatically. I realized however that this takes away the option to not use them because many idbase maps feature custom textures not covered by the hi-res pack. So I think it's neccessary to leave the choice to individual players as to whether or not they consider the absence of some custom idbase hi-res versions objectionable.
If, when the pack is nearing completion, someone wants to fill in the gaps with corresponding hi-res texes then cool - this base pack is a great opportunity to take advantage of SB's work.
But I think replacement textures should remain an independent installation option for players. 
Testing 
If people need maps (or code) to be tested, then feel free to pass them onto me. Just get my attention in #base and I'll be happy to help.

Kell: I hope you manage to get past the problem. Judging by the discussion at I3D, it's looking like a bit of a nasty problem... 
Than 
I hope you will be able to compile it before the deadline ;)

I hope as well ! This map is more occluded than Castle of The Dark Ages was... so I guess it should be fullvised in less than a week...

Also, there are not yet monsters.. I already placed some items (armor, health, ammos, weapons) cause I already have a clear idea how the player will have to progress, And concerning monsters, I still have to decide which monsters, and where they will have to be located...

Furthermore, as I'm not used with Quoth mod, and as I didn't use it before, and due to the lack of time till the dealine, so I think I will not use it at all... Maybe I will reuse Cyberdemon / spawn64-based progs.dat I used in Event Horizon... I said maybe.. ;P
I know it break the general consensus rule that has been discussed some days ago.. sorry for this...
Well, I'm not still sure at this time, but as I'm using Doom3 textures (I converted to Quake wad format) I guess a CyberDemon would fit well in this map... I'll see that in the final room... depending of its size...

In anyway, I will try to respect the deadline this time :) 
 
my map will be for sure i�m going to last area now! but i got many stuff to fix :\ first part of map lights are very flat. 
JPL 
for the pack we are using Quoth. If you want to use another progs with the cyberdemon in then your map can't really be part of the main base pack release. However, Quoth is REALLY easy to use, there is a great guide available on both Kell's and Necros's sites, and I'm sure anyone here can help too.

There are plenty of large monsters in Quoth, and all of them fit into Quake much better than the cyberdemon. Also, the spawning method is simple as hell. All you do is a set a spawnflag and the monster will not appear until triggered. EASY! 
Than 
I found Kell's Quoth tutorial (actually I discovered it yesterday nigth surfing onto Kell website...).. As I read it quickly, it sounds to offer many possibilities...
I still didn't started to add monsters (the map is fully monsters free), but completely functional (i.e the player progression is possible from start point to the end (even if not yet built)... So I think it would not be a big deal to use it... I'll see that later when I will start to fill the map with monsters.... 
Ugh 
just got to get my shit together and stop pvping in wow. :P

hopefully should have the beta monsters ready soon so you guys can start using them in your maps. 
 
hehe my map is almost finish in layout! just need many many fixes! 
Necros/kell 
please mail me the pak (or upload and tell me where to get it) :)

My map is not really ready for the monster I am hoping to check out (eddy), but I am sure I can make some space for him temporarily and give him a good slapping around :)

The map is coming on fairly well btw. Just a couple more (fairly significant) areas to build and then it's all tweaking and adding gameplay. Not quite sure what is going to happen at the end of the map, nor whether it will be above water or underwater. 
Necros/Kell 
A good thing would be to update Quoth tutorial as well.. just for newbies like me ;) 
 
:\ each room i make i add gameplay :\ of course i change always but the basic gameplay is always done!!! and my map just remains the final area!!!

still just dont now if will be a single room or more stuff :\ must think and today my head is empty :( 
Gah. 
I am having problems with GTKRadiant 1.5.0 all of the sudden when trying to deal with Quake mapping. It keeps crashing with the following error:

.\texwindow.cpp:902
assertion failure: pointer "archive" is null


This only seems to happen when I try to map for Quake, too -- the other games aren't affected. Sucks to be me =( 
Nevermind. 
Thanks to Zwiffle, I located a newer build of 1.5.0 (10-12), and it runs Quake stuff just fine. Rocksor. 
:p 
http://trinca.no.sapo.pt/why.jpg

why monster spwan at start and not when is triggered?

:\ i think i did all right...

one pick :)

http://trinca.planetaclix.pt/joequake047.jpg 
 
Trinca 
You give your name to a monster_scalrath ?? :)

The screen looks good. The lightning seems too flat tho. Will the player be able to walk on the roof? 
 
yes it will 
Trinca! 
You rock so hard, you juggernaut of idbase goodness, you! I hope to have some pics soonish of the current section of my map that I'm working on -- got some catching up to do after GTKRad was getting squeamish with me... 
 
:\ first seccion of map after start is crap :( i will try to rebuild but will be hard... 
Roofs Are Fun, 
funny how when you see a roof (like in Vault of Zin, or SoA Lost Mines), half the fun of playing is figuring out how to reach it and explore it.

Good Going Trinca 
Pak1 Beta 
The beta of pak1 content is ready. Since a lot of email addies listed in peoples' user info here on Func tend to be out of date, I won't email all of them.

So if you're mapping for the Base Pack, email me from your prefered address and I will reply with the pak1 attached. 
Kell 
Thanks for the base pack.. I also played the small base map embedded that has been given as an example for the new monsters: It was really fun, while too short... I hope to see a bigger one in the final pack ! 
 
u got vermis JPL :) 
 
New Monsters 
If you want i can give you my gunner and q2soldier code for upcoming base pack.When it will be released and do you want the code? 
Base Pak 
As I started mapping for the base pak, I could not imagine the project would tend to its final purpose.

After the flashlight and wad discussion I would likely have seen the parameters set to their base opponents: normal Quake1, as it is the most base I could see for standard.

This doesn't mean I don't like the Quoth pak,
it is perfect. As the Custent would have been.
This is just my humble opinion, so let it be.

I had to remap my map at the point I was a moth ago, and still having a lot of HOM's, but I'm learning. Now I started with the extras_r4 "goodies", I placed so many func_ladders that it is hardly compatible with the Quoth pak, even if I would place func_trains. Though I apreciate the func_breakable addon for Quoth, I also placed a new monster, so I think I can better release it with my own progs. Or it had to be added to the basepak as curiosity.

some screenshots:
http://members.home.nl/gimli/gimli23.htm

keep on mapping! 
Madfox: 
i'm planning on implementing func_ladders similar to the ones in the extras_r4 pack. likely they will be built in the same way, so eventually it will work with your map. 
 
Well the texturing is somewhat repetitive and the lighting needs work, but at least you have some relatively interesting brushwork going on there.

BTW I suggest the Servomech for a new base enemy. Originally custents, seen in gmsp1. 
Fine 
The plain textures are because of my reach of 64kb lightmaps. It's again a rather huge map.
It took some time to delete all HOM's.

A good point to have the func_ladder and func_breakable in the Quoth progs.
Would Earthq.qc and spelmaster.qc be possible? 
Kell 
I tried to email for the Quoth-re-stuff, but youre email at func_msg has a mail error. 
 
so lets talk about deadlines!!!

i think my map will be finish by the end of this month! so untill christmas i got 25 days of betatesting!!! but i think others are delay! so what date are u guys thinking have the map done?

+\- of course :p 
I Think 
I can have my map playable by Christmas, though it'll need polishing. 
On My Side... 
... I'm still working on the final area... and there are still no monsters placed... so I have a lot of work indeed... furthermore, I didn't tested fullvis process yet, (till the beginning I'm working with fastvis in fact), so there is also an unknown timing/delay there...

I have a lot of free time this week-end (my wife is on trip, and I just have my kids at home), so I guess the last area will be finished by sunday, and then monster placement could start...

Furthermore, I guess it is possible to have a preliminary release within 2 weeks (fast-vised only), for beta testing, so hoping fullvis will not take forever this time, I would be ready for Xmas !

At this time, I think the most important is to have a clear status from all mappers, and then decide if any additional delay will be necessary...
Do we need more time to polish the map ? That is the question :P 
Hmm 
Not had so much time to map recently, and the final few areas are pissing me off a bit so I have been mapping slowly. I think I can have the map made by Christmas though, and into beta in the next month.

I think we are waiting for the Quoth update stuff though.

Kell/Necros: Any idea if forcefields are still going in? I want to use them for my SK and GK doors, but there isn't really a problem if they aren't used (it would just be much cooler with than without).

I also need to try and force out APSP3 sometime early next year, as it has been in a near complete state since May, and I haven't touched it since then. It also uses Quoth ents, and there are a couple of useful new ents in the new version that I am waiting for (well, they are in the beta already :) 
Quoth Clarification 
I was wondering if we have access to:

a) Liquids that can be triggered to move to certain heights (think "draining the resorvoir"), and

b) rotating brushes? 
Clarification 
a) probably no moving liquids. necros examined the way they're implemented in pox extras mod, and it ain't pretty. necros may have more to say on this though.

b) hiprotates have been in Quoth from the first release :P 
I Want 
to a level like that one super mario 64 level where you raise/lower the liquid levels :D (the atrium in slip is perfect for it) 
Yeah 
apologies, but there aren't any plans to include moving water into quoth. the method that it's accomplished with is a dirty hack (well, many dirty hacks) and some aspects of it will interfere with things that have already been implemented in quoth. 
Also: 
i see no reason to not include forcefields, as they are simple enough entities to do (half of the forcefield stuff is already included in the form of func_togglewall) so including the particle spawning entities shouldn't be a problem. 
You Rock 
love and xx

-than 
Teh Latest. 
http://biff.leveldesign.org/index.php/?p=62 A couple of pics from my base-in-progress =D 
Biff 
O RLY? 
RPG 
PWND. 
Biff 
second pic looks quite good, but lighting's being worked on?? it looks flat at the moment. 
Nitin 
Yeah, just approximating the light at the moment, although I still think it's a bit too dark in other areas (not the one show recently). I'll have it all tweaked by the time it gets tested and stuff, fo shizzle. 
Base_pack Ftw! 
Ok seriously this time: Looks cool. I agree with nitin about lighting. Also, you might want to consider spicing up that floor with some crates. 
Yes, Yes. 
Crates are forthcoming -- still working out the basics, atm (ftw!). I am hoping to use all of the crate textures currently residing in the ultimate_base wad (excluding Asaki's UAC logo textures, seeing as how it's a "generic" base), which come in a multitude of sizes and types. For the time being, I'm simply leaving a good bit of room here and there for them =D 
Waiting For This One 
biff - nice world geometry, just needs a bit more light work and stuff scattered around (crates, corpses?) otherwise looking good.

trinca - like the outdoor areas, looks like youve gone for large and stylish rather than overdetailing - cool.

as to func_ladder - don't know about this; isn't it easier to use the old very thin steps made from clip brushes trick . . . though this does limit the height of your ladders. 
Trinca 
Did you receive my email with my preliminary and monster free base map ? Or did you have any troubles with your mailbox ? What happens ? 
 
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

my map is finish!!!

now if fix fix fix fix parts!!! 
Kell 
It seems there's an issue with monster_scourge: I got the following message: progs/h_scourg.mdl not found... Is there a typo somewhere or is it a real problem ? 
Oh.. 
looks like we forgot to include the scourge head. :P for now, either copy any monster head and rename it to h_scourg.mdl and put that in a temp /progs folder, or extract it from hip pack and use it. sorry, we kinda just threw him in there real quick. 
Quoth Update? 
I tried mailing Kell but got a server error, so how could I possibly get my hands on the patch and whatever other fileage that may be on the way? 
Actually... 
i haven't seen kell on msn for a little while now... wru buddy? T_T :P

i shall take over the emailing of the beta quoth pak for now. reach me at necros (at) rogers (dot) com (i'll send it to your listed email, biff) 
Necros 
Thanks for the infos, I'll try it.
However, when do you plan to release a Quoth pack update ? 
 
ok next friday i will have first beta map is finish but need some fixes! can team Quoth base pack give me email for beta?

or sent mail to trinquinha@gmail.com and i reply with map! 
Last Area Finished... 
So, it is done... I finished the last area of my map, and monster placement has just started.
Here are below some shots of this last part. I know it is dark, and also maybe too "blue"... but this "foggy" for the ambience... like CDA was ;)
The best will be to experiment it "live"...

http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/SRC1.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/SRC2.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/SRC3.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/SRC4.JPG

Please feel free to comment the shots...

So now I have to make a very fast beta test to improve the stuff, and then launch final built... hoping it will not take too much time... I would not like to miss the "target" date (BTW, what is the target date ? Is there a date already decided ?) 
JPL 
looks cool.
but *please* when increasing brightness don't forget to increase contrast correspondingly! otherwise the screenshots look as washed out and blurry as the ones above. 
Neg!ke 
I forgot to increase contrast by 20%. Is it OK now ? 
Jpl 
I still think scale looks off in first two shots.

But obviously, it may be well be different in game.

do you need betatesters? 
Nitin 
I still have to refine some minot things: monster walking in walls, adding maybe more monsters, and improving gameplay before starting a real session... As of today, there are 69 monsters in easy, 98 in medium, and 118 in hard... not so much in fact...
Anyway, if you want to test a preliminary release, like Trinca already started to, (fast vised only), please send email.. I'd be happy to send it ;) 
 
JPL i think only Quoth team should test maps :p not to spoil the monster surprise :p :) since there are fun new ones! nitin should wait :p for total surprise! 
JPL 
looks quite nice, especialy the shot3.

Did you use colored lights there? 
Necros 
Got the mail -- thanks, man. 
JPL 
Your map's got me really curious. For the most part those revamped tex don't look half bad -- and the map itself looks really nice, too. 
Thanks For Feedback 
PuLSaR: no colored lightning there: the color comes from the texture. BTW the bottom texture is animated 9not visible on shots ;P. There are some in the map, but not in this part.

Biff: I'm glad it stimulate your curiosity, as it was the goal of the posts.

So now I'm looking for some beta testers, before a full built of the map, please send email if you are interested: note that you will need the Quoth Pack + the latest necros' extension with new monsters. 
Jpl 
I might just wait, I'd prefer to have final build if all that stuff is required. 
 
biff what happend to this map??

http://planetquake.com/biff

since 2003? did u lost source? :\ 
Trinca 
read the latest news post.

biff should be sentenced to death for losing this great-looking map :'( 
JPL 
I can hardly see anything even in SUPERBRIGHT 2 monitor mode (which fucks up brightnes and contrast to the max)
Are you trying to mimic doom3 mapdesign? 
 
ops didnt read that :( if something like this even hapend to me i think i sent computer from the window :\ and i like in a 4� floor

but i always have a backup in internet ;) everytime i work in my map i upload! 
Trinca, Neg 
No no, Myrmidon is okay. Really. It's just -- resting for the time being while I work on the base_pack map. Like I've mentioned in #TF several times, the map for the pack has given me some ideas for Myrm, and vice versa. I'll get back around to working on it soon. 
 
coollllllllllllll map look soooooooooooooooooooooooo sexy!

:)= biff want a beta of my map? 
Speeds 
You sound like an ideal candidate to check out the lighting levels in my map. It's not finished, and I haven't touched it for a little while, but I wouldn't mind some feedback on the genereal brightness. On my screen it looks fine (though a little flat atm) but I have a feeling it won't be so easy to see on others.

It's also pretty hard to see in some areas if fog is turned off, but I assume most people will play with fitz or an engine that supports fog, so that isn't a big issue.

If you are interested in giving me a little feedback then let me know and I'll send you the current map. 
JPL 
please send me the map (andyp DOT 123 AT gmail DOT com) and I'll give you some feedback. 
Than 
OK, I'll send you email this evening. Thanks a lot in advance. 
Actually, Jpl 
i didn't type anything originally, but i agree with speeds :P

in the first shot, especially, all i see is 3 vertical strips of light, and the rest is completly black. you need either more light sources, or more fake radiosity. 
JPL 
though the screens were near pitch black, it seemed fine in quake when I had a quick look this morning. I'll send you an email when I have a chance to have a proper look at it. Only thing I noticed on the first run was that the SK door was unmarked and dimly lit - difficult to tell there was a door there at all.

I use gamma 0.9 btw. 
Than 
Thanks, I will looking forward to your mail. And thanks for the comment about SK door lights, I'll add some ligths in the next version ;) 
Trinca 
Yes, I want to see that map -- send it to biff AT leveldesign DOT org =D 
 
sent!!! 
Question: 
who is actually ready to release their map for the christmas release date? 
I'm Aiming To Have 
a beta by Christmas, but completing a map by then would be either a rush job or a less ambitious map. If we are keeping to the the schedule, I'm flexible though.

Trinca sent me the beta pack. Quake base seems a lot more complete now with these extras. 
 
i think only JPL and me got complete maps in beta testing!

with some luck Travail will be release and will keep Quakers ocupied for christmas u ntill other guys finish for end of january? :) dont now other guys status

but i think Asaki and Daz are late!

inertia, text_fish,than and biff dont now!!!

madfox dont now if is in or not since he want a lot of changes!!!

dont now if is anibody more in or not!

but if all those finish could be a great pack with 9 maps :) 
 
necros forgot!!!

when u got all source worked plase sent to SDA team ;) we all like to see some runs in Quoth maps ;) and since they are already so many... please do!

i will make another Quoth map for sure is a great mod! 
Necros / Trinca / And All 
I'm not against a delay in Base Pack target date, as ?I go on holiday for 2 weeks durting Xmas (means no PC, except my office PC cause I'm late at work... too... :( ..)
Well, what is the real status of other mappers ? And actually who are they ? Furthermore, necros told me that Kell is also late on Quoth update...

So, delay or not delay: discuss 
I Can Probably 
meet the deadline if I rush some parts of the map, but any delay in the pack would of course allow me to make my map all it can be. :)

So I'm in favour of a delay, but it's not essential. 
Still Working On It A Bit But... 
kinda busy so I don't know if I can finish it for christmas.

Like trinca said, hopefully travail will keep people occupied. 
What Are The Things That Expected 
of a map for the pack? I'll just list what I'm assuming, correct anything that is not valid.

Quoth base related
FitzQuake compliance
standard readme textfile

Optional materials?
skybox
.lit files 
Err 
I think I'm *almost* done with the basic build of my map -- then I'd need a bit of input before populating and rounding things up before full tests could commence. If all that goes well, then sure -- I could be ready by Christmas... 
Looks Like 
almost everyone would prefer a little more time. i think it may be a good idea to delay the release of quoth2 for now then, since there is still some things that need testing, and others that are not finished atm.

let's aim for an end-of-january date for now, and re-evaluate how we're doing at that time. how's that work for everyone? 
Re: What Are The Things That Expected 
the things you listed are all fine. if you want to include your own skyboxes, provided they are not ridiculously huge, we can bundle those into the final pak1.pak file for quoth2, same with .lit files.

oh, btw, if any of you guys need me to beta test your maps, you can send them to my listed email. it helps me to see how others are using the monsters for balance issues and such. i may be a bit slow in replying though... :P 
Only In It For The Base Thing 
got my hard earned map after 3 months work,
had my newbase monster, cut out the HOM's,
cleaned the Allocblocks full, and then...
My internet got caught on a worm, and then I find this under my ChristTree?!

I'm the one who wants a lot of changes??

there's only one base thing, quake shareware!

But alright, take it for granted and tell me what I should change for your beta testing?

http://homedrive.home.nl/gimli/publiek/Phantom.7z

waiting for Xmass 
I Know 
Peeks! 
http://biff.leveldesign.org/index.php/?p=64

I'm all for more time, since I'd like to get as much ironed out as possible with my map. 
Biff 
Looks boring. You should quit mapping FOREVER.

/sarcasm 
Zwiffle 
Zwiffle u should stop playing games with faget names "pray" and become a man playing Quake! we need you...

P.S--> Zwiffle fan club

/sarcasm 
 
ok guess we can count with 8 maps!

trinca
jpl
than
biff
text_fish
headthrump
inertia
madfox

------

Daz??? were are you? got time untill end of january?

------

Asaki is out he is late and got other plans like he said to me in mensenger (good luck with your own project mate! ) 
Trinca 
I have some minor things to refine (i.e gameplay at the end... you know what I'm talking about... ;P... ) and then launching the final built... However I don't think I will do it before my Xmas Holidays (I'm back by the 8th of January)... So I guess delaying the delivery date by 1 month would be cool for everybody... I agree with necros point of view... 
My Map 
I seemed to have divine inspiration when I started it but it has faded from me now :(

I will try to finish it but I doubt it will be before january, however when its released it will use the new quoth stuff like all the others, it will just be late :) 
I'll Likely Use One Of Yours Or Kell's 
I think you may have used a skybox in Contracts that would fit the bill rightly, I just need something with a spacey cosmic edge (okay, I'm leaving myself wide open there) :) 
 
then pack must have a env directory!!! i want to use dark skybox

final count then to january i think is 8!

Daz will release as a individual map!

maby Daz will get inspiracion and finish after that! :) 
On The Replacement Textures... 
It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside that people are wanting to use my textures for this pack, but clearly as it stands there are a load of gaps, but...

Although I haven't had much time over the last few months and haven't been too active over here, come christmas holidays I'll be stuck in my parents house with not a lot to do apart from some web-design work, so if people would appreciate it if I made textures to fill in the gaps, I'll give it a good go.

The thing is, I don't really want to go through every map and try and find all the textures I didn't do.... but if I got a .wad full of textures to remake, I'd gladly work on it.

Think about it, let me know. I'm afraid my map never got very far, but I hope everyone else is doing great. Daz, don't quit man, those shots looked fucking ace! 
^^ 
Yes please mate :) I would love to see the completed set if time allows! 
Starbuck 
Hells yes -- more power to you, buddy =D 
DaZ 
Someone needs to get set up an WoW intervention with you buddy -- maybe we can get Cardo and some of his rough skater buddies to pay you a visit ;D 
 
I imagine a group of his close friends and family showing for a WoW intervention, only to fast forward to find each and every one of them becoming hooked like Jago is. How sad. 
Biff 
rofl, if only I could blame WoW for my lack of mapping!

I seem to be suffering serious mappers block :( 
One Thing That Helps Me 
is to play a shit load of Doom2 megawads, the level design is so raw and effective in Doom & Doom2 that ideas can't help but shift through as you are jotting out maps on paper or in editor. Rise of the Triad, Blood, Hexen, Duke are good games to draw inspiration, basicaly anything that came out before Half-Life jaded us with its realism ;)

Sometimes it helps to break down the expectations built into a modern Quake single player map in to more elemental components before building them into their more sophisticated parts (like building an entire layout and gameplay with simple box-rectangle structures before indulging grand Necrosian design). 
Heh 
its kinda the opposite for me at the moment, I can make boxmaps with gameplay just fine but I have hit a dead end when it comes to the architecture. BEH! 
Daz... 
All the architecture you have posted so far has been top notch -- it's really too bad that you feel you've hit a dead end :(

If only we had some sort of inspiration thread...

;) 
I Agree With Generic 
That's why I assumed you were having problems extending the style you established there into a larger map. My bad. 
Jpl 
haven't played the latest push yet. will get around to it tomorow i hope, sorry! 
Necros 
No problem.. I'm "eaten" by real life as well ;) 
Quoth Content 
to make my map compatible with the quoth content, is there someone who can supply me the adjustments for this pak?
ie: is it func_breakable or func_breakaway etc.

thanks 
Base Map Finished !! 
My base map is now fully built since a few minutes.. (TxQBSP + Full Vis + ligth) Surprisingly, full vis process took only 40 mns :D ... yes 40 mns, as usually it took more than hours... ouch weeks... (not to say months... bleh... remind I got the "longest fullvis process runtime ever" trophy with CDA map ...;)... )

So I'm now waiting for 2 informations:
-> Who will collect all the map and built the pack (necros, or somebody else ?)
-> Delivery date definition...

I'll wait for these informations... and other mappers... for sure.. the more we will be, the more the pack will have interest.

BTW, I already started a new project... wait and see... :P

Anyway, MadFox: You have either to email Kell directly and ask him for the update, or if you want, email me and I'll send you all the stuff (zipped pak1.pak + additional note)... and check Quoth tutorial on Kell's website ;) 
Xmass? 
Kell's spawnpoint website gives me a comercial site.
I could trace the normal Quoth pak, but as it is updated it seems useless to me. 
MadFox 
MadFox / R.P.G 
Actually Quoth pack at Kell's website does not include yet the update that have been shared some month ago. This update includes new functions/items and also new monsters. It is an add-on to the Quoth pack, and to obtain it you have to ask Kell. 
Mail Sent 
 
Kell 
Thanks for MadFox :) 
 
my map is also finish need just some small fixes! 
Great! 
let's jabber this quoth(ing). 
But... 
my map is rather ladder depended.

Does quoth support func_ladder? 
not in the current build

been pretty busy lately, and haven't really had much chance to work on the progs either... shoot me now :\ 
Append: 
but i should have mentioned that ladders are planned to be included. i just need to find a nice way to do them. 
 
Madfox doesn�t your progs.dat have the func_ladder working perfectaly? if so why dont sent to necros mail the code? 
 
OK GUYS I'M HOME FROM SCHOOL TIME TO GET MAPPIN'

what is the latest status on what qc features will be in our little pak? 
Trinca, 
I'm having some e-mail related trouble and my e-mails to you are only coming back. Meh apologies.

I've played the 2nd Beta twice now, and I only have a few recommendations to add; some of the longer corridors are a bit more curvy than what the texture materials suggest they should be, and there is a problem with the big lift down where creatures get under the lift as it is coming down and they force it up before you can jump off. 
As Mentioned Before... 
the quoth.progs would be updated with a func_ladder too.(maybe)

I've been working a little by myself extracting it from the proxys.qc but although I may get it work on a clean qc-file,
this doesn't intend it will with the Quoth.qc 
What's So Special About A Func_ladder Anyway 
since you could also simply use 1 unit stairs/clips? 
Probably Some Semblance Of Ladder-like Movement? 
ie not rocketing skyward 
Neg!ke 
Since you're the one with the urge to leave I'll try to explain...

you're option is almost right though the minimum size is 4.
And as I have rather large heights it would make the verticals too max.

func_ladders use the jump function in some enhanced manner and are not so easy to integrate in the qc because they depend on other, like client.qc and players.qc

In my map I would have to make the vertical size to big as they are in mineshafts rather small.

Are you still there... 
Also... 
the 1 unit wide step method makes it virtually impossible to move back down the ladder (or more to the point, makes it very easy to move down, just not in a controlled non-falling manner) 
But 
Who seriously climbs down ladders that aren't too high to kill the player when jumping off? 
Scrags 
 
Necros, 
Do you plan to add trees to the pack? I remember some mention of trees. I could use some.

One way to implement trees would be to add a random seeder to a model_tree and each frame of the mdl could represent a different branch course. If it is a bit much at this stage, no problem man; I'll make rocks instead of trees. 
 
necros i made some more changes in my map so i will sent u another version soon!!!

did u get my email about monsters size? i�m making a quoth.Qkr file for Quark 
Back From Holidays... 
.. so I'm ready to send my map for "packing" step... Just let us know, who and when to send the stuff... 
A Base Pack Of Good Wishes... 
I have a map, but I just finished deleting the HOM's and that's really sticky. But the gameplay and texturing is far from standard.
If there is someone for betatesting?

Trinca, you've got mail. 
 
yes but my life is not easy at the moment :( fucking to much fucking work :( i play this weekend i promiss!!! 
MadFox 
Please send.. I'll take a look.. 
Cool 
I placed the file on the net so if you want to beta test it just let me know. 
MadFox 
I downloaded it. I'll come to you later by email when tested ;) 
Jpl 
You made a good look. Sorry for the newboss.
I ain't got a good solution for this part of gameplay.

Level is still with the proxysm mod, can't help it but in the quoth pak it looks rather pale. Thanks for playing.

Trinca, I changed the level on the net, so the email isn't valid.
I'll send a new one. (The wbase_beta2.rar you sended me had a corrupted header.) 
 
:\ i sent u again! will play tonight your map! 
Still A Barebones (only 2300 Brushes) Map 
But I have all of the reachable sections built. It is a pretty huge map but fits within the 4096 range, so it shouldn't be a problem for FitzQuake.

I have a lot of detail left, most buildings don't even have roof structures built in yet, and the textures and light are only serviceable until I get some more of the basic brush work complete.

I'm using the Diakatana sets 1 and 4 for this one, and the working title which I may keep is
Merciless Ming

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/5404/dp000020al0.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5092/dp000021ua9.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3964/dp000023ri7.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3646/dp000025tf2.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1507/dp000026bc8.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8918/dp000027xf1.jpg 
Err 
2300 brushes is barebones? :E

How many brushes do most good sp maps have? 
5000+ 
czg maps are like 20000+. 
No 
stop lying 
 
look cool headtrhump but look like need a lot of work :) horyup :p 
HT 
Looks interesting indeed ! I'd like to see that ingame soon: go map !

;p 
Resumed Mapping... 
just starting to do some more work on my map so that I can hit the deadline and remembered to suggest to everyone to use the info_command or trigger_command entities in their map to make sure they set the correct r_wateralpha value for their maps otherwise any map played after mine will have wateralpha set to 0.25, which is very low in most cases.

Also, if anyone else is setting some other value using the command entity in Quoth, please let us all know so that we can compensate for it in our maps.

Alternatively, maybe the info/trigger_command entities should save the previous state for each thing it sets and revert it when the map ends or the player changes the level at the console. Is that possible, Necros? 
BTW ? 
just starting to do some more work on my map so that I can hit the deadline...

Is there already a deadline I would not be aware of ? 
 
i think it was end of january but i think necros should say a date since it will be him that will colect the maps!!! 
Trinca / Necros 
OK, I'll loko forward for the delivery date confirmation. As the map is already ready since a month... it is not a big deal for me. 
 
mine is also finish i just go time to time add one more brush :) 
Thanks JPL & Trinca 
Deadline wont be a problem, though I'd like to have a complete version the week before the deadline so the bugs can be ironed out. 
Than, 
I gave it some thought before responding, so here is my two cents, using an entity that is buggy and forces other mappers to use the same entity that they would otherwise ignore to compensate for the bug is not the way to go about doing it.

If the entity gets fixed, now that is just gravy but otherwise its going to be a problem. 
Headthump 
the entity is not buggy, but it sets the wateralpha at the console, which stays set after the map ends. I can set it to 1 at the end of my map I guess, but if there was a way of restoring it to the previous value that would be nice. The simplest way I can think of would be to retrieve the old value for a cvar when the new value is set, and reset the old value when the entity is retriggered - perhaps automatically when the map ends?

The other option would be to set wateralpha etc. values from the start map entrance portal.

Also, the entity allows each mapper to specify exactly what wateralpha value they wish to be used for best results on their map, so I think it is pretty useful. I'm only using it on my map because there is glass, and without setting wateralpha the glass won't be transparent. 
Info_command Is Generaly A Good Idea 
it is a powerful entity though. When I first tinkered with it (actually a different version of this entity found on gamers.org) the first idea to pop in my head was, 'ah, savepoints!'and soon after 'spawnpoints+savepoints=hubmaps!'. Didn't take long to get over my head.

I don't have have any problems putting a command to set alpha in my map. I'll do it if it helps. Where there may be a problem is if any of the mappers have compiled a final version of their maps and have no plans to change anything. A simple -entsonly compile should be all that would be needed in this case, but we do need a general consensus among the mappers even still. 
For _The Team_ 
Today I walked through this topic and it looks very promising (and I really like the Quoth idea).
Make it great, people here wait for this stuff! (:

And BTW Quoth: are there any maps/episodes/whatever using this mod? 
Yeah 
Quoth. 
 
winter_mappack2005
the rest is silence! by hrim

and wel i dont remenber any other :p 
Look ... 
... onto Kell's website.. 
So... 
whats everybody's situation looking like at the moment? Reckon we will be launching this month or will it be later?

I did a bit of mapping at the weekend and as a result managed to just about get on top of it. I think I should at least be able to get a beta out by the end of the month.

I think Trinca and JPL are about done with their maps, and Biff seems to be in about the same situation as me.

How is everyone else doing? What is the code/model side of things looking like? I still have the first beta of the Quoth upgrade pak, and the new stuff in that was looking pretty good if a bit rough around the edges. I think I sent a long email to Kell about it too, but I didn't get a response. Kell, if you are reading, let me know if you received the mail. 
Btw 
Madfox is also in beta, obviously... sorry for not mentioning him in the last post ;)

what is the situation about adding speedrunning support to Quoth? It's not a big deal to me personally, but as discussed earlier in the thread, speedrunners are an important part of the community, and seeing a run on your map can be really rewarding. I plan to make sure my map is runnable (currently there is one big ass shortcut that can be had) and I would love to see if speedrunners can speed their way though it (and the other maps in the pack).

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the speed running progs was closed source to stop cheats, but is there any chance the final Quoth 2 source could be passed on to the speed runners so they can add it as the final change without any of their secrets being spilled? 
 
Out of interest how is the progs 'closed source'? I have yet to see a progs that was not decompilable by one of the tools out there? 
I Worked 
whats everybody's situation looking like at the moment? Reckon we will be launching this month or will it be later?

I worked on the map quite a bit last week and Saturday. My eyes are getting sick of it. I'm scaling it down a little bit to make it easier to complete by the end of this week. 
Than 
My map is ready since last month, and I'm just waiting for a delivery date. I guess the final pack built will be triggered by Kell and necros progress on Quoth update... 
Omus 
Decompiling is ugly, you won't get all the comments and akward code. 
RE: Deadline 
My monitor's up shit creek without a paddle right now, so unless I can get it fixed or find a new one pretty sharpish I'm going to have to pull out of the event. For now I suggest assuming that I'm out already, because I can't afford to shell out for a new one at the moment.

It blacks out every thirty minutes or so at which point I have to give it a twenty rest, so doing anything more than checking forums/emails gets tiresome fast.

However, I'm loving what I've got of my map so far, so I'll release it on its own at some point if I don't make the deadline for this pack. :) 
TF 
Can't you borrow an old crt from someone? I'm sure there must be someone you know that has an old monitor you can borrow for a while. Maybe it's a bit of a hassle, but I'm sure you can find something. I hope you can anyway ;) 
 
> (..) it was mentioned that the speed running
> progs was closed source to stop cheats (..)

Don't want to start a fight or something... but isn't this a violation of a GPL licence?

PS. How to make colors/italic/whatever in posts? Nothing like [i]/<em> seems to work on 'preview'. /: 
 
<q>quote</q>
<i>italics</i>
<b>bold</b> 
Lazy_bum 
If I am correct progs.dat does not lie under the GPL. There are lots of "closed source" mods. 
 
[q]Decompiling is ugly, you won't get all the comments and akward code.[/q]

But even so it usually re-compiles with a bit of cleaning up. Withholding the src to stop cheaters seems like a flaky idea to me and they should just make it open for SP modders to include (at least on request). 
 
@czg
Thx. (:

If I am correct progs.dat does not lie under the GPL. There are lots of "closed source" mods.
According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuakeC it is.
Anyway, I just want to point that this is... wrong? Even if it is against cheats. \:

And BTW Quoth I've found those two by necros:
ne_deadcity.zip (The Rats in the Walls)
ne_marb.zip (Crescendo Of Dreams + Surmounting Terror) 
 
If I may, since were on the subject of the progs.dat and the GPL, direct your attention to this thread, as it explains the reason why it says the progs.dat lies under the GPL on wikipedia, when in reality it does not. It also tells the story of someone who wanted a particular source code, and threated legal action if he didn't get it.

http://www.divstudios.po.gs/fvf/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136 
Keeping The Progs.dat Closed May Not Be Illegal... 
But definitively is not cool :(

I'd like to remember that our community grew and still alive based on individual contributions: code, maps or artwork assets. And people new to Quake (and even those not-so-new, like me) only get a chance to learn something when someone else is kind enough to share knowledge. Safety through obscurity for a Quake mod is really a very weak reason nowadays. If someone really cares about cheating the source code absence won't stop him. But not releasing the source will discourage any beginner in the QC coding. 
QuakeC And GPL 
The QuakeC source was released twice ... the original 1996 source release (quakec, qbsp, light, vis. etc.) was sort of an informal "you can use this to make maps and mods" license. In 2000, the quakec source and tools sources were re-released under GPL. There is also a third class of license, which is the closed-source commercial license that Valve used for half-life, for example.

Release from 1996 with no license:
ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/unsup/progs106.zip

Here is the re-release from 2000 under GPL:
ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/q1tools_gpl.tgz

My interpretation is that the original release carried an implicit license to make non-commercial mods without any open-source requirements. If your code is based on that release, you are not bound by GPL.

However, an alternate interpretation is that the 2000 GPL re-release cleared up a previously ambiguous license situation. In other words, there was no license to do anything with the source until 2000, when id software retroactively licensed the original source as GPL. This means that even a mod from 1997 would have to obey the GPL. 
A Very Reasonable Interpretation... 
...although consider that most of the legal systems we'd be dealing with here are generally loathe to accept "retrospective application" (a reverse sunrise principle if you like) in law. Thus, mods from '97 to the re-release date are probably not bound. However, any mod from this period updated post 2000 would need to be scrutinised thoroughly. 
 
lol base pack threath? errrr 
Some Other Thoughts... 
Based on id software's behavior pre-2000, they didn't seem to mind that third-party total conversions were sold commercially without any blessing from id. For example: malice, shrek, and xmen-TC.

Since those commercial projects must have used qbsp, light, and vis in some form, this tells us that id software thought it was okay to use those for commercial, closed-source projects.

It's also extremely unlikely (but possible) that those projects wrote their quakec from scratch. So id software was okay with a commercial closed-source progs.dat based on their sources, too.

Since commercial projects are the most likely to get id's legal team to pay attention, if they let the projects happen that indicates that they thought the terms of their licenses were being honored.

So I'm leaning towards the idea that there are two licenses available for us to choose from, one being the "use it how you like" informal license, and the other being the GPL.

If anything, the GPL option actually gives us more freedom becuase that means that we can release OUR modified versions as GPL. 
Right! 
give me my license to play my legal Quake mappings, before I'm paying two times for the ones I've got!

On toppic, Ive been mapping two months to clear a Hom in my LostMine map, and it seemed to be a brush with two faces on a side.
Now I see two faces on every corner of my seasons.

Than, you've got mail. 
Necros 
additional idea for the new version of quoth:

misc_sound and misc_model that allow the usage of external files (wav, mdl) coming with a custom map, which are then automatically precached (!) and displayed as long as they are properly installed/refered to in the entities' "sound" / "model" fields.

would make quoth even more versatile, i think. 
Neg!ke... 
I am the one who want all new things! 
Oh Nice 
any chance to have it work with models too? 
Any Chance... 
... that delivery date will be decided soon ?

I'm a little bit hurry to play the full pack now... and continuing to delay it more and more, it will turn into a Spring Pack... So, are late people ready, or almost ready ? 
 
i want releas to :p i�m sick of my map :\ if i could go back i rebuild diferent :p but i�m to lazy to fix it :( 
Walk, Don't Run! 
I just deleted my last hom, at this point
I can start texturing and finish the end theme.

I don't understand your impatience?
In the beginning there were plenty ideas, like making an entrence to each level.Or beta test levels of each participants.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/base12.jpg 
MadFox 
Yes, and it was also told that the delivery date should have been during Xmas... Being latere and later it will be almost Spring.. so my comment :P
Anyway, but it would be cool to fix a date, just not to wait endlessly for late people.. :D 
Talk Earlier 
was for the end of this month after Christmas schedule became unrealistic, so that is what I have been aiming for in the size and extent of my build. Also, take into consideration and as Than pointed out the new Quoth material is still in beta as well. However, If you want to decide on an earlier date I'll adjust accordingly. 
HT 
I would not like people to think I try to force other people to finish their map in a "quick and dirty" way. My only concern is that no delivery date has been fixed, and with such statement, it can be postponed forever (I hope not). Saying that, I was just simply highlighting the fact that we would need to fix some date, just to drive a little bit more the project... In real life (at work for example), working without target date is somewhere not so much productive...
Anyway, I'll wait till the end of the month.. Hopefully Kell and necros will update Quoth, and then the pack will be available soon after... 
No Problem At All 
you are right, I'll mull about the design for weeks without a kick in the butt to complete it! I believe it was Necros who reset the target for the end of January. I thought it was a good idea personaly because I always underestimate how busy my Decembers turn out to be. I think I'll send a beta out this coming weekend though. Some things I wanted to put in (you play Flash Gordan chasing Ming who stays just out of your reach throughout the level til the end) are too ambitious. Just make a normal level HT, with monsters, traps, a few goals, and secrets and be done with it already. 
Also, About The Mulling About Of Late, 
I've come to a bit of an opinion from doing large landscapes with a multitude of buildings type of maps like this one, Ariadat and the Mortisville map, and I wanted to see what other mappers think.

As excellent as our compile tools are (with much appreciated thanks to AquiRe and Tyrann) the outdoor lighting model for Quake works best with set pieces, facades where the player approaches the staged portions from particular direction than it does with a more open design. There seems to be many shadowing artifacts that despite a lot of experimentation with settings, they can't be entirely avoided (though manually adjusted area lights can help). If there are optimal settings that take care of this I'd appreciate the knowledge, but I suspect a radiosity model is needed in open terrain design. 
Outdoor Areas 
I would think that a vis problem would be encountered before a light problem, when making outdoor areas such as you describe, headthrump. 
In The Base Map 
vising doesn't take much time. I keep the shapes pretty basic with simple designs for the buildings. 
KK. 
Anyone got a copy of the quoth.def I could use? I can't find a link to it anywheres (including on the Quoth pages at Kell's site). 
Biff0r 
if you can't find the entity def, you can just enter the entity types manually in the editor. I am too lazy to set up the fgd in Worldcraft, so that's what I have been doing :) 
Biff 
ment the quothmap-sourcr or the qc?
send them both by email. 
Oops... 
I aint got the quoth-qc, only the quoth update of Kell.

I sended an email to all participants of the Quoth pak.
There are the two versions of my Lost Mine map.
This for the patience of my mappings.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/base13.jpg 
Than, MadFox 
Than: yeah, that's what I've been doing up until now -- had Bob and the Defender added to my map, but for some reason the Rocketeer (or monster_army_rocket) will not show up. Figured the actual .def file might have something I'm not doing.

MadFox: No, the .def file which has the information on all the special Quoth entities for the map editor. The Map Tutorial page at Kell's site is supposed to have a link to the .def file, but it does not =( 
Biff 
what I do for placement is place an enforcer to get the right size bbox, put him where I want him, and then change the type to one of the quoth classes. When I do that (in WC btw) the bounding box shape changes to the wrong size, but at least I know it's in the right place. Are you sure you haven't put them clipping into a wall or something? I'm having no probs with enemies not showing up. 
Quoth Def.qc 
biff, use the site of necros, all the def.qc are below the page.

http://necros.planetquake.gamespy.com/quoth/index.html 
NECROS ROCKS. 
'Nuff said. 
So, Quoth Source 
yes? no? 
Typically 
we release the source of the previous version of quoth each time. when we released quoth, we released the chapters progs. if we followed the same trend, you'd get the original quoth progs this time around.

we never released our stuff under gpl (although that remix map was GPL, which is why the source to the map was included), but seeing as how this is likely the last version of quoth, releasing the current progs would be in order.

but! i am really swamped with stuff, work, burning crusade and d3 mapping and i haven't talked to kell in ages (sorry dude, not ignoring you or anything).

the interest is just not there at the moment (speaking for myself, and i got the impression it wasn't there for kell either).

i have been watching this thread, but i couldn't find any 'nice' way of saying it... 
Interest? 
How much is there to do? I was just imagining progs/* -> .zip -> ftp. 
there's a lot. 
What Does That Mean? 
Does it mean you aren't going to do any more stuff with Quoth, or you aren't going to do anything for the time being?

Just wondering because my map uses a fair bit of the current Quoth 2 content :/

Mind you, my map is also unfinished :) 
it doesn't mean anything. :)

i was being intentionally noncommittal, since, as i said, i haven't talked to kell about it, and this is just as much his project as it is mine. i haven't seen him post here in a while, and he was pretty busy when last we palavered.

i don't have any answers to give you, sorry. at the very worst, if we decide we don't want to have anything to do with quoth anymore, i'll tidy up what is in the beta version, and bundle up the source and call it quits and you guys can do your maps and whatnot (cause i'm not a complete asshole!), there just won't be any other new stuff which we were originally planning to include but is not yet in the beta.

don't take any of what i'm saying as 100% truth though. until i can converse with kell about this stuff, it's all unofficial.

just know that we are aware that you guys have put a lot of work into your maps. i've already seen some of them, and i want them to be finished with a proper progs backing them up.

the only thing i can say with any certainty is to take your time with your maps, and work at your own pace. 
 
hope it doesn�t take long thks for honesty necros :)

Kell come back darling!!! 
Necros 
Noone who palavers is an asshole. Its a documented fact.

Meanwhile, I'm coming terribly close to getting my map in rough order -- tweaking, detailing, and adding some stuff that I forgot to before (funny how getting caught up in the the more menial ends of a map can take your mind off what you wanted to do in the first place). Squeal. 
Status 
Just before the end of the month, I'd like to have a status of each mappers, and also on Kell/necros side (Kell, you have an email !) about the Quoth update. We reached almost the end of the month, and it seems that this pack is not about to be "packed"... So what is your map status guys ? 
I've Just Set Down 
to put another 8 to 10 hours into the map. I hope to get it to playable beta tonight. 
Status 
NOT READY :/

I am still working on the map for a few hours every couple of days, but there is still some way to go. Noteably the final area is not yet built, and there are a couple of other areas that are much smaller but also need building. Aside from that, it's bug fixing and tweaking. 
Btw 
Mine's on hiatus. I thought it would be done over winter break, but alas, that was not to happen. Good luck, guys! 
 
another dead like DEAD!!! 
 
deadline lol :\ 
Sorry Trinca, 
I put a chunk of time into the map last Sunday and last night, and I'm still working on it a bit this afternoon. It's coming together nicely, though. I hoped to have a beta ready, but I don't wont to force it until it is good enough to display. 
 
HeadThump i hate delays :p already complete another map... 
Tranquillo 
we're not speedmapping, are we?

trinca, although you're map is finished that doesn't mean you can't finetweak things? 
 
dont touch in my .qkr for a longggggggggg time... :) kind of bored of that map! 
Deadline Proposition 
OK, let's say we fix a deadline by mid-february... (I didn't mentionned which year.. so it can be postponed easily year by year... doh ! ... :P) Is it suitable for everybody ?

I'm also waiting for necros / Kell feedback about Quoth update... What are you doing men ?? Are you dead ? 
Deadline Suggestions / Comments 
when it's done? ;)

I think that mid Feb is a bit early if we've just missed the end of Jan deadline, so I propose the end of March to when it's done, depending on how keen people are to get their maps finished and out the door. I really want to get mine done because I am starting to get sick of it :)

I'm fairly near the end of my map now, but I will still need a few more weeks, as I don't have a massive amount of time each day to work on it.

Also, any idea what's going on with forcefields etc? Still going in or not? Necros said that he was too busy and with a lack of motivation to work on the project, but I thought Headthump was helping on the code side. Any heads up would be appreciated. 
Than 
OK, let's go for end of march... I hope this thime everybody will have time to finish his work (i.e map, Quoth update, etc...).... 
When Necros 
returned from Exile, he took his rightful throne back from the pretender, who was summarily banished to the nether dungeons where the mappers are kept.

Seriously though, the copy of Quoth I was given did not have support for any of the tech creatures (not even the original Quoth set!) so I was starting from nearly square one. I don't know how useful I would be at this point to the coding, but if Necros needs any assistance, you can contact me ol' buddy ;) 
I Did Get A Peak 
at a lot of intriguing medieval monster stuff that has yet to be implemented in Quoth.

BWAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't worry Necros, your code is safe with me though I will add, I detected a Celtic influence in the names you used. 
 
With all the talk in this thread I really can't wait to see the many new monsters and stuff. And if the source for Quoth gets released its going to get even when the 'monster remixes' start showing up (how about an alliance of death guards + axemen + barons? :O ). 
I'm So 
impressed that you guys have kept on mapping! I am excited0r for teh pak... 
He He 
I would be even more excited if we would have a proper Quoth update... ;p 
 
Don't stop mapping. 
Also 
Biff do you still have the wad with the new base textures? The old link didn't work for me. 
Necros / Kell 
I found an new issue in the Quoth Pack update you provided a month ago: I found an issue with monster_ogre_flak.
When the engine loads the map and during model meshing, I got a message stating there was a missing texture in the map... Well, I look for it but I didn't missing textures on brushes. But when I gibbed a monster_ogre_flak, I noticed his head was completely "grey": no texture at all. I guess the issue comes from that. Could you confirm please ? 
Drew: 
 
This is a pretty heroic project. What I've seen of the maps looks great. I can't wait to get my greedy little paws on it.

*fap fap fap* 
Thanks Biff 
what is this fapping? Is Golden_boy masturbating? 
Quoth's 
Glad someone activated the link, can't read vieuw all posts.

yes, seeking for betatesters for the mine map! 
Kell 
I saw you are connected, did ever think to reply the email I sent you some weeks ago... please ? 
Kell Has Been Taken. 
Nyarlathotep has him working at the All-Day Buffet of the Bloated Woman.

And you're welcome, Drew =D 
 
waiting for the release; this looks like it'll be a great pack. 
 
if will ever be released 
Thou... 
...shall search EasterEggs in the Caves of Annonimious Unreleashments...

http://members.home.nl/gimli/base000.jpg 
Shit, Those Are My Favorite Kind Of Unreleashments 
this is going to be awesome 
I Prefer My Unreleashments To Be Edentifyed. 
 
So 
when the hell are you going to release the pack? 
 
Circa 5 D.N.F. (5 years after Duke Nukem Forever) 
Release 
depends on when we all have our maps finished and when Kell and Necros have the progs done. Don't hold your breath, basically.

Current target is the end of March, but I'm a bit worried Necros might not have the time or motivation to finish of the progs as he said in an earlier post he was swamped with other things he either has to do or would rather do. 
Func_monster! 
identify yourself, or I'll lease you all my hom's! 
Well 
what we could do is to release a pack that would include the Quoth update provided by necros... I guess Kell and him will not be happy, but if we want to see this project birth a day, I think we will have to do this way...
BTW, I sent an email to Kell, and he didn't take time to reply.. so I guess we are his lower priority.. 
Uhm 
I want you guys to alphatest, betatest, gametest, cooptest, critise, perfectionise and finalise your maps. Or are you all really done with that already?! 
JPL 
My map is ready since mid december... I made several round of beta test... so I'm just waiting for a target date and an update of Quoth... that still not come... 
Hmm... 
we should have done this at the start, but we should probably set up a mailing list for this maybe?

mail andyp.123 <put the at sign here> gmail.com and I will send an email around early next week to everyone.

Personally I haven't done any mapping for a couple of weeks, but I am still at the stage where my map could be finished in a few days of quality mapping time. 
Than 
So, it has been said that target date is fixed to end of march, then I think we now have to say it will be the pack delivery date (i.e pack downloadable from a server). IMHO, building a pack that would include necros' first Quoth Update beta and all the maps is not a big task (let's say 2 days in the worst case)
So can we consider that the target date for all mappers would be within week 12 (23rd of march last date).. So it would give a week to build the pack, upload it on a server, and share it to the world, with a proper News thread ?
Is everybody agree on this ? If not please discuss.. Any other idea ? 
We Can't Just Include That Beta... 
Quoth is not our content to mess with, just uploading a beta of Necros and Kell's work is just not cricket. If Kell and Necros are happy to release that beta with the basepack then fine, but I really think we should get something a little more polished before we release the pack.

Kell/Necros: if you are reading what do you think? 
Than 
We also have to take into account that the Quoth update has been beta released last year, and that there are bugs, and since this time, we didn't get any news neither from Kell, nor necros... and we just know that necros is more interested (at the moment, according to the latest post here above) by D3 mapping rather than us... So I wouldn't rely on them to release something buggy, as Kell seems to be perfectionist... So I guess you will not have any reply from them... And If yes I would be very happy...
BTW, what about HeadThump progs.dat task ? HT: some news ? 
The Story So Far 
I'm not involved in the programming at this point. I never really had an acceptable build of the Quoth QuakeC to build base content from as there was no tech monster code to build from.

I was rebuilding the based content from scratch and had some of the Quoth monsters at a basic level of functionality and at the same time getting a feel for Necros'code base at the time Necros joined in the effort. I didn't feel it was my place to continue on the coding side without being formaly invited by both Quothist, so I bowed out and have been drafting and redrafting (I'm on my sixth version) a map for it ever since.

I skipped working on it last weekend because it was my birthday, but I'm building on it again tonight(btw, Merciless Ming is dead, long live Jackboot Primate !). 
This May Sound Obvious... 
but if a new quoth release can't be relied upon, then don't rely on a new quoth release. 
Oh Metl 
You are so dreamy in your obviousity.

Meanwhile, my map is still being tweaked, populated and tested -- yeah, a slow progress, but my free time has been rather scarce as of late. I will, however send andyp some vociferous fanmail soon =D 
expect to see at least 3 mods released soon (in month or two/three): base pack, travail and arcane wizard.
Am I correct, base pack guys? 
Obvious, Maybe But 
what Metl said needed to be stated.

What if we are left high and dry? I have been building around original Quake content for my Tiddle rip-off, I mean homage map, with the idea of cut'n'pasting Quoth-base content if everything pans out, but that solution wont work for everyone.

Trinca's map is dependent on Quoth content to a great extent, and I have the feeling he may
have hit the road as far as the func_board is concerned given his last post a few weeks ago, and I haven't seen him online to IM with in months (likely, more my fault than his though). Also, extra content is expected from this pack, so not having Quoth or something similar would be a let down.

So assuming for the sake of argument that Necros and Kell can't complete the base pack what should we do? If it becomes necessary, I can build an alternative version of the pack that can read in the entities that are Quoth related and spit out alternative entities.

The enforcer and grunt types are easy enough, a reskin and improved A. I. should do the trick, though the trickiest would be the flame thrower guy. Bob and the Sentry can be replaced without batting an eye. I have a few models of this basic type (flying mini gun ships).

Eddie is a pretty original idea, I would not wont to try to duplicate out of respect for NecKell, but as an alternative I could shrink Armagon (or my Tarsagon!) down to human size, weaken him quite a bit and reskin. It would be
a pretty formidable alternative.

There is an energy weapon included, I would use one of my own from the Mortisville project but they are high poly, so a better replacement would be the gun from ClubShub.

Trinca used some monsters from the Quoth-elder
pack so some of those would need replacements
as well. If we do this, I'll need a list of the ones that are used (please don't be the gug, please don't be the gug).

Than, I recall you wanted a forcefield. If I'm not mistaken there is one in Custents, and anything from that QC is easily transferable to other projects.

Monsters and weapons are no problem coding wise, the toughest aspect for me would be coding some of the map linking code that Quoth uses that allows you to trigger events in one map, and have an event occur in another map, but I don't think anyone is doing multiple maps, am I mistaken?

I would only be willing to do this much extra work if we are entirely certain that Quoth-base is not going to happen. I don't want to step on any toes, but we need to know where we stand at this point. 
Sure 
I've a got a good qc for the newboss, baseboss as I call it. Also a qc for the earthquake, which I must say is fine to work with. I think there are no arguments in it that would affect the quote.qc

I asked Kell about adding them to the Quoth pak on mirc and he was rather brieve on it. That was about two months ago. The eartquake.qc I placed earlier in the old tricks progs toppic.

Of course if the others would agree. I sended a beta test level to all participants( except biff I think). And from the answers I've got I must say there is some coherention. But I saw only Trinca's map and that's only two of the pak. 
And... 
mine is alos base on Quoth update: I use eddie, ogre_flak, sentinel, pyro, and plasma_gun... so it would mean a serious refine if we abandon the quoth update now... 
Hey MadFox, 
is that earthquake.qc from Armagon or the Rogue mission packs? I usually start from hipnotic's qc as a clean source (they did a lot of bug fixes too) when I start a mod.

Also, I got your message and downloaded the map. I'm not mapping tonight, so I'll make beta testing my number one priority when I settle in this evening.

Thanks, JPL that's helpful. I should go ahead and prepare a list of things that need to be done, so if it does become up to me I'll be ready.

I'll take any suggestions anyone feels could be useful to the pack. My strength is in synthesizing existing materials together. So if you need a little something from Custent, Peroxysm, Rogue, Minion-Coffee etcetera, as long as there is some code to examine I can most likely make it work. The exception being Nehahra, I've never been able to get that stuff to compile because it's style is not C code like (more Pascal like, I think). 
HT 
I forgot to mention there are also some eliminators...

BTW, I noticed that scourge are buggy (missing head or something like this when they die.. that's why I didn't used them), and I also noticed that when you gib a ogre_flak, the head is completly grey... don't know why... maybe a missing texture or model skin... 
Yeap 
and I also noticed that when you gib a ogre_flak, the head is completly grey... don't know why... maybe a missing texture or model skin...

I noticed that too.

I got the scourge working pretty well for Trinca's Underground Base back. Modern QC compilers give off some errors that earlier versions used for the Mission Packs didn't. A few things have to be deleted or rewritten to work with frikqcc, but that's no trouble.

Also, I'll have to note the custom environmental sounds if anyone is using the mini library of them provided in the Quoth pack. 
HT 
Yes Yes: sounds also ! 
Earthq.qc 
I substracted the essiential qc from the Dissolution Of Eternity Pak.
I wondered if I could make it a stand-alone add on for modifying my own progs.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/Q1EarthQuak.htm

As it did. 
Forcefields And Stuff 
I don't need them, but I wanted the hipnotic ones really. I don't really need them though, because it was just for a visual effect on the keydoors.

As for my use of the Quoth update content, I can probably just rip it all out and go back to the original Quoth enemies without much impact on my map. The lack of these monsters would be a shame, but I'd rather rip them out in the event that Kell and Necros can't finish the update than having to start from scratch with completely new stuff based on Quoth.

That's just my map though. JPL and Trinca definitely use the Quoth 2 stuff a lot more.

HT: Do you reckon Necros would let you finish off Quoth 2 from his current code? Have you contacted him? 
 
If we did start with a fresh model pack, I wouldn't realy consider it a Quoth replacement
as much as having a code base that accepts Quoth definitions for entities and churns out a creature of equivalent strength and function. I share your concerns though. It would be a radical step to take and though I can skin very quickly, all the elements added together, new models, new animation, new sound, new code, and certainly some intangeables yet to be forseen, we are talking about adding a great deal of development time to the pack.

Still, it may be possible to minimize the time factor by only using existing models, and changing the skins to reflect a consistent theme (Necrotic-Mechanical and Ancient-Cyber are ideas I have sketched up a bit), and as for sounds, current Quake content can be remixed and screwed with for some nice effects.

I always underestimate time factors, and work best with set deadlines, funny, when I started the project as a coder, I was looking for something that would give me a breather from Mortisville for about a month. I enjoyed developing code and editing sound for Trinca, so I thought it would be a rather easy task, here it is a half a year later! 
That Was The Second Half Of A Two 
post answer, but I got error message 42 for the first part, so the first part went something like this,

Trinca contacted me last night and said he could not get a hold of either Necros or Kell; I could try e-mailing Necros but I have no reason to believe that he would be more respondant to me than Trinca.

Perhaps a mass mailing from all interested parties would do the trick, with an attached message that stated Necros we understand you are sick to death of Quake. It happens, we can empathize, but if you could release the Quoth 2 contents in their present form and let the Quake community polish it up for a map pack release, we would be very thankful for your magnimity.'

With his in-box filling up one day, he might take notice. 
Part III! 
MadFox, I played your map, it's pretty wicked, anyone who enjoyed the lost mines map from Armagon will love this map, it's like an uber sized version.

I took about thirty screen shots while playing that I'll use to illustate the commentary on things I noticed while playing that I intend to write up and send via e-mail. It might take me a few days to get it all together though.

Now, go to bed, Thumpy! You make func_boarder's eyes sore with your endless chat chat. 
Headthump 
When is the deadline ;) for Mortisville? 
Chuckling Silently 
I have Quake Expo in mind if we have one next Summer; there is a media blitz of material not exposed to the light of day, yet, but I am holding back until everything is at a beta stage and can actually be publicaly tested. 
It Occurred To Me (on This Unholy Post #) 
that there is a third option, if 1) Quoth-base can't be used, or 2) we don't have a consensus on an alternative pack replacement. I could build a Progs.dat that strips out the Quoth content, and replaces them with near equivelents from the original Quake source.

Two approaches can be taken. The mappers agree on a list of which monsters replace which, or if individual mappers have a different list in mind, that can be customized in the QuakeC as well . . .

[psuedo-code]

if map = "bifs_grunt_killzone"

then (monster_bob = monster_wizard)

. . .

That would at least save the mappers the trouble of going back changing things up and recompiling. 
Bad Idea... 
IMHO... I can't see how Scragg can replace bob in a base map....
A solution would be to provide an alternate doawnload of the Quoth Update on any server (Remember that Kell sent it when you asked it..... so it is almost "public"...)... and also some corrections (e.g Scourge issue, ogre flak gibbed head issue)... and the Base pack...

So you would have somethinglike this in Quoth Directory:
pak0.pak => the Original Quoth pack
pak1.pak => necros' Quoth update
pak2.pak => progs.dat correction (if required and Base maps...

What do you think ? 
I Have To Strongly Disagree 
the Quoth 2 beta can't be used without Kell and Necros' permission. Kell allowing me access to it doesn't make it public, and there is a good faith
assumption on his part that I would not release it own my own. It is their work, I don't have any rights to it at all. 
I Agree On The First Part Though 
that the third alternative is the weakest of the choices for a solution the problem that we have. 
HT 
So, how can we proceed ? I sent an email to Kell 2 weeks ago, and he didn't even take time to reply... So I guess we cannot rely on him now... nor necors BTW.. So, unless you force Kell to release it now, what can we do so ? Recompile our map without all the good stuff embedded in the Quoth update and just focusing on actual Quoth mod ?
I'm not happy with this idea, while it will cost only 45 mn (fullvis included)... and that would be a shame to lost sentinel, pyro, eddie, ogre_flak and scourge on the road...
So, what do we do ? 
Roll Mapping On Floor 
as I deleted 12 double brushes in my quoth map and still my last extra vis took 5h55m.

but I quote for JPL #667. 
I Agree 
it certainly sucks. I'm only trying to outline what the feasible alternatives are. We need all mappers involved to hammer out how we can proceed. I can sympathize with the alternative you gave, after all, that 'good faith'
is a two way street, with each mapper spending dozens of hours under the assumption they were mapping for a package that would be completed, but there is still the matter of whom the pak belongs to. Also, I was never given the Quoth base tech code, so I'm in no more a position to develop Quoth independently than any one else (admittedly, it is something I would not do without permission). 
Either 
As far as I am concerned, we get Quoth 2 finished up properly with the agreement of Necros/Kell or we release our maps as Quoth 1 compatible instead.

The third option is to release a standard Quake progs compatible version. I really don't think it is worth creating a new progs that is not Quoth, and if that route is chosen I would rather just release my map as a standalone map for vanilla Quoth. 
So... 
... we need a clear list of the involved mappers for this pack... what is inculded in their map(s) (i.e Quoth update included, other pack based...), how long such gameplay changes would take (i.e as example, for me it would mean a complete gameplay refining and 1 hour of recompilation..), and also their opinion about how to proceed.. and we will need to decide what to do...
what do you think ? 
Btw 
what about the start map? 
Neg!ke 
Good point... nobody talked about that before, but it is obvious we need one by the ned of the month... So, now we really need the exhaustive list of involved mappers... and one mapper for the start map... 
Hmmmm... 
...I wonder. 
Startmap 
I was thinking of making a part of my map, or parts copying, could make a good contribution to the start map. Of course with some minor changes, so it won't look exact the same.

If we could make an agreement for a partial square each, one mapper could fit them together to a start map. 
MadFox 
Nice idea !!
Furthermore, I think that each mappers could provide a starting point (i.e: a "small" room that would reflect how looks his map), with a proper trigger_change_level... It would be usefull for the mapper in charge of building the start map... (only .map and .wad to provide).
It could be something like a corridor with several entries (like done in 1000 brushes winter pack 2 years ago), with some triggers that would give the name of the related mappers and the small room behind (mentionned above) in order to give an overview of what's behind the teleporter... (I don't know if it's clear...)
What do you think ? 
Idea Is A Good One 
I'm up for it! 
Did I Realy End 
my last sentence with an exclamation point? So stupid. I'm never writing and eating chocolate chip cookies at the same time ever again. Reduced to the mentality of a happy little Rafi listening
five year old because I've got my cookies and a cartoon of milk and fucking off on someone elses dime. 
 
do what ever u guys want to do! i dont give a shit anymore... release if you want if not dont, but i will not make any other map for a pack for sure! about the start map! more delay? errrr i realy dont care... 
Catoon Of Milk? 
it just keeps getting worse. 
once opened a toppic to 200 posts when I had to admit myself I wasn't the same one anymore I was in the first post. 
HeadThump 
Related to post#680: does it mean you will own the start map ? 
I Have A 
cute little domed room I built for the map but I cut out of the current build that would go well with this idea, but as far as owning, that would be more than I intended. I want to get back to work on the SoE map as soon as I feel the current map is ready for primetime. Another chunk of free time should do it. 
HT 
So when will you need the involved mapper to send you .map and .wad related files ?
As well, as you seems to be in touch with Kell/necros (how lucky you are...), would it be possible to ask him about the Quoth unoffical update download I mentionned in post#667 ? As I didn't get any reply from Kell... i guess you would be more lucky than me.... 
I'm Going To Cry Now 
 
HeadThump 
No seriously, are you really going to own start map design ? If it's not the case I can hold my current project and built it, it's not a big deal... It's up to you...

OTOH, how do we proceed with Quoth update, or any alternate pack delivery, etc... I just note that no decison has been taken as of today, except the fact we all would like to see this pack to be released by the end of the month, and also that we cannot simply deliver Quoth update preliminary pack as is without Kell's permission (I have to admit it is not really fair... but do we have other choices due to the fact that Kell doesn't reply to emails ?)

BTW, I still didn't see an exhaustive list of involved mappers for this pack... Are there new mappers that joined since last list ? I know that Trinca, MadFox, and me have for sure something to deliver. But what about DaZ, than, biff, inertia, HeadThump, and others that posted here at the very beginning ? Any news ? 
My Base Map 
I want to finish it but I just don't have the time to do anything good. Well, that's kind of a lie -- quake and editors don't run too well on my mac that I am using at school right now :/ 
Startmap 
I thought there was a startmap plan, but as it seems not further contributed I thought of making a part/startmap of 800kb.
If others participate it could melt to a 5Mb map. 
ThumpyDThumpThump 
I am 100 percent behind a MadFox start map. It would be most excellent.

JPL, I have to decline doing it, I realy would like to get back to some other projects, SoE:Indian Summer, Mortisville, at some point, even Merciless Ming the map I developed earlier for this project using the Quoth 2 beta. It's a complete map but just lacks good game play. I'm thinking of remaking it for Quake 2.

Here is a pic of the map I'm currently doing for Base, Jackboot Primate
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1961/fitz0033cz0.jpg

We also need a name for the map collection. Base is okay for a project in development, but when the Quake news sites run it, well, From the func_board we have news of the release of a map pack . . . presenting, Base! It just lacks a ring to it. 
Headthump: 
isn't that just a retextured version of e3m7? 
Funny, 
I've used e3m7 as a basic starting point for the Winter Pack map, but not for this map. It's a Tiddle's like design from a speed map I did Winter 2005 but didnt release due to a computer crash at the time. I've been brushing it up over last few weeks. I see what you mean though as that is similar to the entrance hall, I'll go back and check the bits and pieces of maps I made at the time, there could be some overlap between Winter and my speedmaps, hence a resemblance. 
Note 
None of the brush work in Norway pack used the Quake sources, I rebuilt the layout from scratch to see how it was created, and my end result looked nothing like e3m7. 
Here 
is another shot, from JackBoot Primate

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7171/fitz0036yi2.jpg

Looking things over, there is a chance that area
in the first pic is too strongly derivitive. It is a small fraction of the map, but still, I think I should work it out of the map as it is a homage to Tiddle's not Haunted Halls. Thanks for catching it, I may have never even noticed. 
Resembalance? 
Okay 
So, MadFox accepted to make the start map, including a small contribution from all involved mappers: I foresee something like an entry door to a teleporter (that will bring you to the Base map itself), using the same style in order to give an overview of his level... And also a message with mappers and map name...
MadFox: please comment about this point, and also about the deliverable you are expecting.

Just another thing, we still have to do a pack that includes part of (or complete) Quoth update (e.g: new monsters at least): who could do that ? I don't have enough experience in pack creation, nor in QuakeC, and as I guess it will not be "easy".... so if somebody could handle that... it would be cool... any volunteers ?

Other ideas ? Other remarks ? 
Yumm 
I like that shot from HeadThump! 
At The End... 
.. we then need somebody to put all the stuff (i.e progs.dat + monsters models + all maps + ???) into a single pak1.pak file... and then release it by the end of march.... So who will merge all the required stuff ? And also, we need a download link, and I guess Spirit will be happy to provide it: am I rigth ?
In anyway, first we have to solve previous post "issues".... 
Start Map 
I think it would be quite cool if there were runes or something like the original start map, that unlocked a final boss map... 
Start Map 
a hub map like in lost chapters (?) please. :)

JPL: Hosting shall not worry anyone. ;) 
Inertia / Spirit 
inertia: it would mean the addition of a rune at the end of at most 4 maps... hmmmm do we have more than 4 maps... I don't know BTW... And also we would need to build the latest map including the final boss (Chton, Vermis ???)... or modify one of the maps to include it: Do we really have time for that ? I remind you that we decided to deliver the pack by the end of march: at least we fixed this rule, and I'd like to respect it... We already wait too much IMHO... Nevertheless, if you (i.e most of you) really want this final boss... why not... Let's discuss...

Spirit: thanks a lot, I knew we could rely on you for hosting: You rock ;)

BTW, would it be possible for all mappers who would like to join the pack, to email me and provide their map title + bsp name (use lambert_jph - at - yahoo - dot - com): I'd like to have to count how many mappers we are today. Note it is also to prepare the pack .txt file... :P ... Thanks in advance 
Errata 
Please read lambert_jph - at - yahoo - dot - fr

Sorry for the mistake..:P 
 
Inertia is a fucking lier kid dont count with him... 
0 Well 
but the rune thing is something delicate, I experienced in the abandon mod. I don't think at this moment we can reliable constitute all mappers(?!) to add a rune and integrate it in a start/bossmap for it.

I do have the newboss which is toughly hard, but because of the low income of altering the progs.dat (what now headthump, drawing back? Send me the screenshots as you wrote) I don't think it is possible.

I could try it, as I wanted to add the earthquake too, but I ain't got the Quoth.qc
And I believe there would be severe conjuctions in the Drole and the Newboss. Both shoots lava balls, and will have to be tweaked.

But using the left time to take a small piece of each map to make a startmap doesn't have to be that big Q. Hey Trinca...where are you? 
Hey Madfox, 
You have mail ;) 
Thanks 
I've just updated the levels. I used a new lip option for the door so it won't thread z-brushes anymore. The waterfal runs on a func_illusion. Difficult to clear.

At least they're hom free now. Concentrating on gameplay and animated textures now. 
HeadThump 
I've beene waiting months for at least 1 damn shot here, thanks. I like the slight melding of styles there, good to see you're not afraid - even though they're not stock Quake texes. Although those shots are very washed out/gamma'd up. 
Hey Thanks 
to both you and Spirit; the targa screen shots always come out much darker than the lighting looks in game.

The foundation sticks too the Jackboot/Steel Valour set, but I'm using a lot of stuff from the DKT1 set for the machinery and stuff.

Bif has some good screenshots on his site, and I can affirm Trinca's and MadFox's levels have some nice brushwork too. 
Hmmmm 
I think we should stay "simple": no rune addition, no new boss, only a set of Base based maps, and that's it... only the start map will be cool to add... Furthermore, reading posts above, it seems that adding a new boss monster will be a little bit tricky...
Anyway, do it as you want, but decide it quickly guy: in anyway, I will release my map for the 1st of april, latest delay (maybe the 2nd in order to avoid April's fool stupid confusion..), even if I have to remove all cool monsters from unreleased Quoth update...
BTW any news from either Kell or necros ? Are they dead or what ? Did Kell gave his permission to use his Quoth update and allow to download it from any host ? Any news on the progress on Quoth front ? 
April 2 Sounds Good 
I need to contact Trinca later this week to see how he intends to deal with the Quoth 2 pack matter. I believe his map is playable with only basic Quoth, with spawnflags just being ignored but I need to test it some more to be certain. 
HT 
Do you need my map for testing ? Mine is suing all the new monsters of Quoth update.... Please send me an email if you need it...
BTW, yesterday I sent a new email to Kell (and necros) concerning Quoth update hosting, and the permission to use and share it .... I hope to have a reply this time.... :/ 
HeadThump 
you have mail :P 
Before 
the toppic is out of sight...

does it still make sense to make a start map with parts of each upcoming quoth map, or am I fishing behind the quotes? 
MadFox 
The basic idea was to have a central room, with severals doors, when you choose a door, a message appears with map name and mapper name. Behind the door there is a small room with a teleporter to the related map, and the room should give you an overview of the incoming level... a kind of advertising...
If you think it is stupid, or not suitable for you (cause you will have to wait for all mappers' small room delivery before starting something), it's not a problem. As we are now close by 3 weeks of the final delivery (end of March... remember) we have to do simple, short and quick things for the start map... So a single room with several teleporters to each map is OK as well for me...
What are other mappers opionion ? Other ideas ?

Also, I sent an email to Kell and necros about the possibility to share Quoth unofficial update... and I didn't get any reply from them (it is the second email I sent BTW, and this time I was asking a simple yes or no...).. I guess they don't care of us, or they are both dead.. I don't know....
So, as we cannot rely on them, and as it is usual to say: "If you don't reply, you agreed"... I propose to be radical, and so to share Quoth update without Kell/necros permission, otherwize we will be stucked forever at this point, and the Base pack will never be released... So fair or unfair: we have to do something, and I don't want to rework my map completely just to comply with a gentlement agreement about delivery permission. I am generally a gentlement with people that acts as gentlement, and it is not really the case of Kell and necros today (at least with the 2 latest email I sent).
So I just propse to enrich the Quoth update pack with our maps (.bsp, .lit, .txt) and the base pack, zip it, and share it by any host...
Who is OK with that ? 
:/ 
I don't want to include my map without the express permission of Kell and Necros to use their mod. Also, I haven't worked on it or any of my other Quake maps in a while and am not sure I will be finished by the end of the month because I am busy with RL stuff.

Sorry to say this, but until there is word from Kell or Necros on the pack, I am changing my plans for my map to release at a later date as a standalone Quoth base map. Sorry if this pisses anyone off. This is mostly a time thing, but I don't really want to offend Kell or Necros. I think you guys have plenty of cool maps without mine anyway :) 
Hmmm... 
I think Than has the right idea here: if you cannot get consent to release the new content, use what you can -- even if it means scaling back some of the features in your levels. The original Quoth mod should be more than enough to work with and I can't see how dragging Kell's and Necros's names through the mud is really going to get things moving any faster. 
Generic 
I don't drag them into mud, I'm just complaining they at least should have replied to the 2 emails I sent: I think it is not really fair. As I said I was asking for s simpele yes or no, and get nothing. I know they are really good mappers, it's a fact, but I'm just a little bit hangry about the fact they completely ignore the Base Pack now, while they provide something saying: "use it, we need you for the debugg"... and that's all.. there's no follow up, nothing, and we need all to rework our maps..." this is not really a fair attitude IMHO..
That's why I would like them to react now ! 
Don't Shoot The Pianoplayer...he's Only Playing. 
when the cat's away the mice ran the quoth seeds.

before tumbling down in discussion again about licenses from Quake or Quoth.
Fact is there are some people who liked a pak for quoth so there it goes.
Thinking of the enthousiasme in which this toppic has started we might as well beginn a discussion about flashlights again.

Following the thread I get a little concerned about the way it is developping.
Someone starts a toppic, others agree and start working, thirds come in with all kind of arguments, Then the Quoth thing starts, and finally Trinca blows his horn, leaving a bunch of mappers arguing the absence of the Quoth developpers, who won't give their blessing about the thing.

As long as I receive an update for Quoth I believe there is nothing wrong with permission.
Only someone who grabs the whole thing together to a well working Pak, not blaming himself to work without the help of Kell or Necros. I think there are enough posts that they could have answered too.

I started a start Quoth map and I'll send it to all participants, and I hope they'll get over to add a small start piece of their map. 
Haven't Read All The Thread 
but do you need an updated Quoth? Couldn't you just use the "old" one? 
Public Excuses To Kell 
So, I just received an email from Kell this evening. I promised him to make public excuses concerning my lack of patience: he deserves it. Kell had a big personnal problem that needed him to quit the Quake scene for some time. He told me he will try to update Quoth as soon as he can, so he didn't forget us actually, he was just busy somewhere else, for very good reasons.
I propose to give him some time before releasing the Base pack...
Kell: I apologize a lot again... 
Kudos To You, JPL 
for these apologizes to Kell. I'm sure one of those who consume in waiting for the Base Pack release and I was in full agreement with your way to push it. I think it's great you finally got an answer to your e-mails. All the best for an updated Quoth version then. Quake quality first! - Don't blame yourself to much for your so called lack of patience. It showed more like enthusiam to me... 
So... 
Are we still planning for the end of this month, or are in in hiatus until Kell and/or Necros can be available with the updated Quoth? I'm pretty sure I can get my map ready by the end of the month, and could scale back the baddies for only the original Quoth stuff if needed -- but honestly, the extra time would only help the project. Just to let you guys know I'm officially on the fence, here... 
Kell Responded, 
so patience is the best policy. I'm up on the fence too. 
Mad Fox, 
I got your message; I'm gonna be on the road for a few days, but when I get back in I'll give the start map a good look over and tell you what I think, also, I'll give you the source to the cute little dome thing of mine I showed a screen shot to, if you would like to integrate it for my map selection area. 
About Quoth... 
.. Now, the thing is Kell seems to be quite alone on the project, as necros has other interest (with Doom3 maps).. so necros is almost out of Quoth project I guess (can I say that? ... nevertheless it has to be confirmed... hum...). So now, Kell would need a C programmer to update properly Quoth.c, progs.dat, maybe models... I guess he would be happy if a noble map would help him... Unfortunately I'm not really good in C code, so I cannot help much here... In anyway, I'm looking forward for Kell news onto Quoth update release... As I said, let's give him time, it is just what he needs.

Concerning the delivery by the end of the month, I think we have to deal with Kell's inputs about Quoth update progress... If it goes fast, we would be able to deliver this month, if not, I think we need his feedback, and then decide what to do... But as he is still on the scene, we can hope for a delivery (soon ?)...

Wait and see... 
JPL: 
you mean QC, right? 
Quoth Src 
I have one question,where can i download quoth source files (qc files) please? 
Patience Is A Virtue 
If Kell is still up for working on Quoth once he is ready then I think we should definitely wait until that time comes. Hopefully Necros will also respond sometime and either continue to work on Quoth himself or allow someone else to finish it off.

The extra time will also allow those who haven't finished their maps to get them done to a satisfactory standard and presumably not have to decide between their map and real life commitments.

Personally, I was getting sick of my base map and also feeling under pressure to either rush it and get it finished or just drop out of this project and release it separately. I'd really like time to maybe work on one of my other near complete maps and finish it off before hopefully returning to my pack map invigorated from releasing a map. 
Melslime 
Yes ;) 
 
oh wel i�m making another base map and i might use base quoth2... so i might have two maps ready... 
Worked for a starmap this night. I think it has to be simple, because of the compatibility to other adjustments of the mappers.

I will try to make my own part in it, and send this map to at least everyone who like(d) to collaborate. As far as now I have 7 entries and a skill setting. Except nightmare.

As I have no qc of the Quoth pak I can't be usefull to it. I only have the earthquake.qc and before the Quoth.qc isn't updated it is of less importance.
I tried the newvermis in my map, but it didn't appear.

the Quoth pak download is on Necros site:

http://necros.planetquake.gamespy.com/quoth/index.html 
MadFox 
Please send .map and corresponding .wad file... 
Yeah 
sorry , forgotten.
on its way. 
Startmap? 
or am I whishfull mapping? 
MadFox 
I still didn't started my part, I'm sorry but my current projetc has some complex issues that I need to solve.... I'll send you the stuff when ready, don't worry, I didn't forget you ;P

BTW Kell, any news on your side ? Or does somebody know how things are progressing on Quoth front ? 
 
necros and I are in communication, have started working on the beta pak1 content to finish it off. Can't really say more than that atm. 
Kell / Necros 
Great to hear you guys are working on Quoth again. I don't really want to throw a load of crap your way, but I figure that this stuff is worth mentioning anyway...

Is there any chance that the ammo boxes could be changed to require less precaches? At the moment it looks like they use 8 altogether, one for each type of ammo and size :/

It's only of importance to my non-basepack quoth map, which is very large, but it is possible that it could help other mappers who want to make large maps with Quoth in the future.

I suppose the problem with changing bsp models to mdls is that the lighting changes. Is there no way around that?

If there are any other optimisations on this front that could be done that would be fairly trivial and not make a big impact, such as the voreling using less precaches (currently 4?), do you think you might have a look at doing those too?

You might remember that I mentioned something about bounding box triggers before. If it is possible to implement an additional trigger type that uses a user specified bounding box (min/max keys) instead of a bmodel, then it would be incredible. It would sure solve a lot of my precache model problems anyway

Also, I don't know if I mentioned this before, but some enemies have a few fullbright pixels on their skin in places where it looks as if there shouldn't be fullbrights. The drole is the first example that pops to mind, but I think that maybe the death_lord and edie have some very minor problems too.

Finally, I'd be interested in seeing Necros' Doom 3 stuff. Has anything been released yet? There is currently nothing on his PQ site. 
Than... 
I'm pretty sure Mindcrime added pure entity based triggers to Nehahra, where you specify bounding box size instead of using a brush (was to be able to modify maps without actually having to completely recompile them), so that's definitely possible. 
Kell 
Good news: I'm glad to see you back on the Quake scene ! I am waiting patiently for the Quoth update :P 
Ammo Boxes As Mdl, Triggers As Point Entities 
Dammit Than, you pre-empted both my ideas there. Here's a bunch of mdl replica of the id ammo crates:

http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/~ajd70/ammomdls.zip

They are lit according to the light levels in the map, so you'd have to place them in well lit areas. Some of the skins have fullbright lights on them, ala doom 3. But since fullbrights don't work in some engines you have to be careful. Also at the moment there is one replacement for each model, none of them are combined, but with a bit of care you could get four or more models combined.


For point entity based triggers, there's a neat 4 line change that will give you every type of trigger at once:

Find the line

setmodel (self, self.model);// set size and link into world

and replace it with this chunk of code

if(self.model)
setmodel (self, self.model); // set size and link into world
else
setsize(self, self.pos1 - self.origin, self.pos2 - self.origin );

Then simply add a point entity with the correct classname(eg trigger_multiple). Set pos1 to the absolute coordinates of the minimum point of the trigger, and pos2 to the absolute coordinates of the maximum point.

Doing things so quickly, without making any new entity classes, does have one downside. In worldcraft if a classname is already defined as being a brush entity, it can cause problems making point entities with the same classname.
Adding some extra classnames like

void() trigger_multiplep =
{
trigger_multiple();
}

can help with this, as now you can make trigger_multiplep a point class. This has the advantage that if you need to make changes to trigger_multiple then you only change the code in one place and both classnames are affected.


Other model optimisations:

* Combine all the generic gibs into one gib with three frames, perhaps even combine the zombie gib while you're at it.

* To take it a step further, you could have an optional global flag for maps to disable head gib models(to be replaced by a generic lump of flesh). A saving of one model per monster it pretty good by my reckoning, even if it's a bit of a loss in visual terms.

* Combine the silver/gold keys into a single model with two skins. Only saves you one but it's a total waste right now.

* Combine the flames into one model with multiple sequences - Start with the flaming torch and shrink down/hide all the wooden bits for the other flame. Only a saving if you use both of them in your map, but gets you an extra model if so. This was better when I thought the large flame had a different model to the small one, but that optimisation is already present.

* Combining all the sprites into one large sprite could save you a few models if you're willing to do the work...

There's also a very desperate way to optimise bsp models if you have models that don't overlap in skill settings/coop. For example, you have a wall that appears only in coop, and a totally different brush entity that appears only in non-coop, so that the two are never loaded on the same map. I think I'm right in saying all of the brush entities in a map have their models loaded, even if the actual entity that uses that model is removed because of spawnflags. If you find an entity for which it's worth strictly checking it's in the map before precaching its model, then there is a way: Compile the model as a seperate bsp file, in the way that the original ammo boxes are bsp models. Then have the spawn function for the entity precache the external model.

This last tip is quite fiddly and it's most likely that it's not helpful for any given map. On the other hand, there might be some maps where it makes quite a difference, if the map is very different for coop than single player for instance. So it's worth a mention. 
Preach 
Thanks for the info.

AFAIK, Kell and Necros have already made a lot of optimisations to Quake's use of mdls. The gold and silver keys, for instance, are already combined. This is basically why I mentioned the other stuff - I thought it might be easy for them to do and wanted to know if there was a reason that they hadn't for instance, optimised the ammo boxes - I'm guessing it's mainly because of the lighting thing.

BTW, there is no spawnflag to set something to COOP only - only DM. 
 
Aye, we already did the key trick cos it was easy.

The other stuff...not so much. Combining different models - e.g. the gibs - into one is very very fiddly.

Changing the ammo boxes from bmodels to pmodels is something I've contemplated, but not for Quoth. I've always thought it would be a case of 'messing with fundamentals'. However, those replacement models are absolutely top, Preach - nice work! I think we shold test them out in a map to see how objectionable the lack of lightmaps on them really is.
I'd like to hear what other mappers feel about this - do you guys hate the idea of changing the way you have to think about placement and lighting of ammo and health? Or might it actually look better? Will players reject the change?
Of course, unless those models are combined in some way they aren't going to use any fewer precaches are they?

The option to globally disable gib head models sounds fine to me, though I doubt I'd ever use it as a mapper myself.

Likewise, the use of a point entity to define mins/maxs of trigger volumes raises no objections with me, that's really a necros decision.

The sort of model optimisations you're suggesting are feasible, but as I say: very very fiddly and time consuming and prone to irritating errors. And in the end, it might free up, what... a couple of dozen precache slots? Not ultimately efficient enough imo. Rather than asking necros and I to go through all the model optimisation for the sake of two-dozen model slots, it'd be much simpler to ask metlslime to bump FitzQuake's precache limit by two-dozen :P

Re: skin fullbrights. Ack >_< I know, the little bastards always slip through. It seems to be the second line of fullbrights, the flame orange colors, that are the culprits. The only blanket method is to load them into TexMex to clear them of FBs, but the remove fullbright feature is imperfect I think.

BTW, there is no spawnflag to set something to COOP only - only DM.

A "coop only" spawnflag is something I asked necros about waaay back. We wanted to develop some coop specific features for Quoth. It's on the cards, but right now down at the bottom of the deck.

Finally, I'd be interested in seeing Necros' Doom 3 stuff. Has anything been released yet? There is currently nothing on his PQ site.

I'd better let necros answer that himself :/ 
Possible Optimisation 
If you wanted to keep the ammo boxes bsp model, you could at least double up the large and small shells/nails by renaming the textures cleverly. If you had a small box with shells textures +0smside, +0smtop and nails textures +asmside, +asmtop you could toggle the "skins" like the textures on a buttons are switched. You could also do that with medpacks. The rest of the ammo is all different sizes so you'd only save three models, but it's better than nothing.

On the other hand, the fact that you'd have to light every place you put an ammo crate isn't that bad in practice. As long as you made it an optional optimisation you can turn on with a worldspawn key then it'd be fine. Regular maps would have bsp lit models, and ones that want the extra model slots would opt in and be more careful with where they put health packs.

I'm pretty sure you can put 11 skins into one model, so I might give that a go. The skins themselves would need some of the textures stretched, since you'd need to apply the same skinmap to each one, but I think it should be possible. The large rockets are awkward though, since they have an irregular shape. Might have to settle for 10... 
Skin Fullbrights 
QME has a pretty good means of removing fullbrights on the skin. Open the model, go to view -> skin palette map editor, then you can uncheck the two bottom rows of the palette. It then remaps to the nearest colour in a range that is checked. Initially only rows that have already been used somewhere are checked, but you can improve the effect sometimes by checking all the other rows first. You can revert the changes, so you can make multiple attempts and see what looks best.

Also you can swap all the pixels of one colour with another one by double clicking the colour you want to replace, and then selecting the target colour from the palette that pops up. Neither of these methods consider the neighbouring pixels, but generally they'll get rid of fullbright speckles well. Bright red tends to cause a problem, but if your skin has patches of bright red it's best to make them dull/dark before you convert. 
 
force fields
ladders
entity based triggers

will be in.

can probably convert all ammo box .bsps into 1 .mdl with different frames for different sizes (large, small and different types) along with different skins.
lighting will be better than it is with bsps, because, afaik, quake uses the lighting that was calculated when the ammo box maps were compiled. using mdls for ammo boxes mean the engine will light them appropriatly.
if done correctly, players won't notice any difference at all.

coop only flags is something i'd like to put in. busy atm, but i hope to get that in there.

the thing with spawnflags is that, it appears that the ones in quake already actually control if an entity is spawned before it gets precached at all. this is really good.

a coop flag would be done progs-side, and so would first be loaded by the engine, then removed by the progs. this is less good, but still ok. just not as nice as true engine spawnflags.

as for d3 stuff, i haven't uploaded anything yet. currently, off and on working on a map with those sandstone bricks mixed with tech. kinda like some strange hydroelectric plant. also have a more 'traditional' white brick gothic map in the works. 
Co-op Flags 
I'm pretty sure doing co-op flags progs side will make them as effective as the engine side flags, as long as you make sure the removal code preceeds any precaches the entity code has. All the bmodels in the map are cached regardless of whether the entities that use them are spawned or not - you can check this with the mcache command. So it's only precaches of external files that are reduced by spawnflags, and these are the ones a co-op flag would help. 
 
i like this a lot!!!

"force fields" 
 
i was refereing to bmodels. 
 
and i didn't know that! (wish i could edit posts...) 
Kell, Necros 
You are both so sexy when you talk Quoth. Meanwhile -- ooh, dibs on starting the coop pack idea again! 
Kell + Necros 
It's great to hear from both of you again, and a relief to know that you are still interested in finishing up the Quoth pak1 content.

I've been doing some optimisations to my big map myself, and have managed to add a couple of new enemies without going over the limit for precache models, but I have a lot of secrets that need triggers (more than red777 ;) so that trigger code is going to be a life saver.

I'd really appreciate the head model disable worldspawn flag if it's not too big a deal to implement.

By the way, the info_trap works really nicely - I set them up in my map last night. The only thing it's lacking right now is the ability to set custom models (I really want to use lava balls). There is a lot of flexibility there otherwise - seems like one might be able to make some really nasty surprises for the player with some creative use of the entity.

I think I've asked Metlslime multiple times about increasing limits in Fitzquake, but I don't think he's been working on FQ lately for whatever reason. I'd prefer the max marksurfs were knocked up over the precache models though... that's the real killer right now :/ 35577 :(

By the way, I've been doing a fair bit of texture modification for both my basemap and the knave map, and haven't noticed any problems with texmex's colour conversion or removal of fullbrites. Generally it seems pretty good. 
 
i will look into the head model disable option. i'm not a fan cause that would just be so ugly, but i can understand the need to scrounge precache slots. on the other hand, entity triggers may be all you need...

also, info_trap was never finished, and it will definatly have the ability to have custom models (sprites and mdl) as well as as much flexibility that is possible. 
Kell / Necros 
And what about new monsters (i.e scourge, ogre_flak, eliminator, pyro, sentinel...) Will they be included finally ? 
Hey JPL 
I got the bright idea of checking hotmail.com to see if I could find a working copy of your map since the msn file was mangled, and it does have a working file (guess that means msn and hotmail use different means of storage, kinda interesting).

I'll beta test it first thing tomorrow evening when I settle in. 
HT 
I saw your email this morning, and I have just sent the stuff again ;P Check your mail box ! 
Hey JPL 
I'll write up a report soon. I have a lot of comments, but at the moment I'm a bit stuck (in the sludge corridors). It may be something flakey
I've done to screw it up, so I'm going to replay it tomorrow. Maybe with a fresh run I'll have a better idea what the problem may be. 
HT 
I'm a bit stuck (in the sludge corridors)

he he he... so you didn't find the exit... I think you still need to explore it a little bit more ;) 
Regarding Point Entity Triggers... 
I think that ent based triggers will be all I need to stay under the limits so long as I can use most trigger types in this way... trigger_multiple, void (not so important), once, secret and hurt (again, not so important) support would be nice, but if that's not possible, then once and multiple would be the obvious choices.

By the way, do you have any plans on how the triggers will be implemented? Will we enter the min and max coordinates, or a width and height about the origin of the entity? Either way seems ok to me - I'm really looking forward to implementing them in my big map :)

Also, I think I've found a tiny bug with the monster path follow code. I think this code was modified in a previous version of Quoth so that monsters would face the right way when stopping at a path point. I've noticed that with the ogre at least, there is a barely audible high pitched noise that plays when it gets near a path_corner and continues to play whilst it is near. I'll set you up a map with this in if you can't reproduce it and don't know what the cause is. 
Than Is A Robot 
c/d 
Iirc 
the ogre is wierd in that the saw dragging sound gets played whenever it hits a path corner in the old progs. it's possible that that's interfering with the new path corner stuff. i don't really understand what you mean though, but i'll look into it for sure.

also, there's no reason not to support all trigger types as entity triggers. 
 
ELEK�s unfinished SP "Technophobia" has nice "techy" monster skins, maybe they would fit well into the pack ?

http://tertiary.planetquake.gamespy.com/
http://shub-hub.quaddicted.com/files/maps_singleplayer/techphob.zip 
Umm 
no.

I'm the first to admit I'm not the greatest skinner ever, but I can do a bit better than slapping some generic Q2 bollox onto the Q1 monsters who, frankly, don't deserve such abuse.

Also, any base map that uses Enya as an ambient sound is to be treated with caution :P 
Good One! 
ELEK did have nice sense of style, nevertheless :-) 
JPL 
I just completed the level. I'm writing up a report right this moment.

Cheers 
Also, 
Bob is better implemented in the base beta pack. He feels more like a dangerous and nasty minion instead of a boss monster in a sentry's drag as he does in standard Quoth. 
HT 
Thanks! I'm gonna check my mailbox ;) 
In Sentry's Drag? 
So that's why everyone hates the b0b. Never had a problem myself - the dodging thing isn't too difficult once you recognise the pattern.

Hm, pattern = boss. 
 
I think Bob just has too many HP for a floating drone. He shouldn't be tougher than a grunt. He's just a cheap, mass produced robot. 
 
I'd like something exactly like the flyers in Q2, that's what I meant to say. 
 
The bob drone was my least favorite of the Quoth monsters. The model just doesn't look 'Quakey' enough. 
I'd Like 
to see grunts with jetpacks. 
Bob 
I like bob now. I've put several in my basemap.

BTW, mapping for me is slowing down as my RSI seems to be coming back. I've got to take it easy now, so I'm slowing things down a bit and using my wacom to map with. 
For Golden_boy 
If you want i cyn send you the mdl and src code for q2 flyers 
Than 
Take a week off; buy a load of films or a good book to keep yourself occupied.

I've gotta stop playing my DS lite, it's giving me withered claw hands. Won the thing in a competition and now can't stop playing Advance Wars . . . dammit. 
Sorry To Hear That Than 
Back when I was obsessed with Team Fortress, my mouse clicker hand would get stressed out. I would soak it in warm water for about fifteen or so minutes between matches and that seemed to help. 
 
@ shadowtails: Thanks for the offer, but it's not necessary. Q2 flyers belong in Q2 :-) I just meant that if we had a flying drone in Q1, it should have comparable hitpoints and behaviour (i.e. go down easy and be dangerous in packs.) It should be a support unit. The Base Scrag so to speak.

@ Omus: really? The model/skin was what I liked best about him (apart from the concept.) He looks pretty "crusty." He's a bit large though.

@ Than: Sorry to hear that man. Take it easy.

After prolonged mouse usage, I tend to have pain in my upper arm. That's because I use my elbow/forearm as a pivot instead of moving the hand. :-( The perfect pointing device hasn't been made yet... 
 
Like you said, he is too large but that's not what I was on about. Quake models are no good for small intricate details which the current model has a lot of (like the aerial, spinner and high-poly cylindrical bits). If I has to sum up the problem in a word I'd say it doesn't look 'chunky' enough :P . 
Than 
the most important thing is your sitting position, the back must be held straight, and the ellbows MUST rest on the table (additionaly, I use small "towels" under each ellbow lol).

One should also take some breaks from playing/typing every 1-2 hours. 
More Advice . . . 
Is to buy a thumb track mouse, the logitech ones are good. (but for the love of god don't buy a fingertrack).

It's odd to get used to at first but much better than standard - more responsive and accurate, with the added bonus that you don't have to move anything other than your fingers / thumb.

With my previous one I'd be sat in my armchair, the mouse on my knee, nice and comfy. 
Thanks For The Advice 
I've got a wacom tablet, so am using that at the moment. I'm also using the pc less at home.

I also have a posture chair, but I don't think it's doing much good to be honest :/ 
Kell / Necros 
I have a stupid question but... I noticed that grenades hit skybox like a solid wall, I don't know if it is a bug, or something normal, but it sounds weird compared to other projectiles that disappear "in the sky".... Is it a specific bug of Quoth, or is it feature ? I tested the behaviour with FitzQuake 0.80 and aguirRe's GLQuake v1.31... If it is a bug, I guess it would be cool to resolve it ;)
BTW, what the quoth update news on your side ? 
JPL 
it's the regular transparent sky behavior. it has nothing to with quoth. 
 
it's not a bug, it's a feature
(c)microsoft 
Oh... 
OK, I was not aware of that "feature".... Thanks for the clarification... and sorry if I woke up somebody ;P 
 
I like the rotor actually. It makes a nice distinction. Most "things" in Quake are biological (monsters), and a definitely-artificial-looking thing makes a nice contrast.

but yeah, he could be smaller (almost Q2 flyer size.)

He should also rotate when hit, like they do :-) it looks so stupid, I like it. Flyers are cool.

The other flying base enemy I could imagine is a mechanic insect, bug style. 
 
I've always really liked Bob. Pretty much everything about him... never knew what peoples problem with him was, to be honest. 
 
I gave WC a shot to maybe help slyly contribute to this mappack...

It looks like too much time had passed... I knew in my head what I wanted to create, but the sub-par result in the editor just frustrated and annoyed me.

And then - after one room was "done" - the leaks began.


Instead I am just going to look forward to playing this pack when it is completed :) 
Delivery Date 
We are now at the end of the month, the delivery date should come soon (i.e if I remember well, it was suppopsed to be the 2nd of April), but we still need Quoth update, and also all the maps in order to deliver a clean pack..
So, what are the news on Quoth side (Kell / necros : any news ?)
And how many maps are ready to be deliverd ? 
 
I've been working on doing a skin for the sentinel, plus some more debris models for the func_breakbale. Not finished, but I've made a fair bit of progress. I think the only other thing I need to do is finish edie's skin.

Dunno about necros. 
Kell 
Thanks a lot for your feedback... I hope things are going better on your side ;) 
 
i got another map in progress might be in base pack to :p if i can finish on time... 
And 
I drew the Quoth startmap in half and made a convertmap to it. It is on grid now, but I still think it is whishfull mapping. 
Status 
Hi guys... I'd like to re-activate a little bit the Base Pack.. I remind that it has been said the Base Pack should have been released by the end of march (after a lot of delay already), and now we are 15 days away...
So, first question Kell/necros: what are the progress on Quoth update side ? do you have already planned a target date for the update ? Or is it too early to say when it will be ready ?
And on mappers front: how many maps are ready now ? i guess a lot of late map should be ready isn't it ?
In anyway, I hope to see this pack delivery coming soon... 
i am ridiculously busy atm. if you really want to release something, then i'll have to bow out or something. i haven't even logged in to msn since i setup the new machine. i'll see if i can get on thursday kell. :S 
:\ 
i knew as soon as "a new version of quoth" was brought up, this pack's release date was going to be pushed back at least 4 months 
Wrist Problems Persist 
my wrists are still a bit buggered, so I don't want to do anything to computer intensive other than my job. If I can't finish my map off before the pack is released then I'm out and will release it later, but if Kell/Necros can let us know when they are working on stuff I try and get a bit of mapping done then and see how it goes. For now I'm holding back though. Sorry. 
 
then i might have time to finish my second map! 
Necros 
i'll see if i can get on thursday kell.

Please do... A soon as the Quoth update will be released, the base pack will follow... and also one of my current project, as I'm about to finish it :P
Would it be possible (after you get in touch with Kell) to have an idea of a possible release date of Quoth update ? 
 
Did you finish your map inertia? 
No 
i bowed out a few months ago due to school

and because i hate idbase

<borat>NOT 
Attention Necros 
give me the quoth source code

I can't wait any longer, and no-one else should have to either.

I know how very busy you are now, and it's really cool :) But you can't make everyone else - including me - wait any longer.

let it go, dude 
sorry, yeah, slipped my mind actually. :P 
 
I know how very busy you are now, and it's really cool :)


i dont now hehe ;) busy with what? :p not doom3 please! 
three letters... 
Neg!ke 
HDL 
Kell 
Is there any release date planned on your side now ? 
 
busy with what?

school, actually. ;) just so you know i'm not blowing you guys off for another game. :P 
 
yeeee we love you necros ;) 
Necros... 
... is then he most serious but all of us :P 
Ok So 
I have the quoth source necros sent me...and that's it. My preference now is just to implement the absolute minimum required to make the base pack releaseable, no more. But seeing as I can't code at all, as I see it there are three options:

1. beg HeadThump to step in and finsih off the quoth code

2. beg Preach to step in and finish off the quoth code

3. beg on inside3D for someone to step in and finish off the quoth code


Having had no intention to take control of the base pack project, nor any ability to code whatsoever at any time before or since ever I still find myself in the position of responsibility for getting it all finished. Sigh.

So...

1. what do you guys still need in the code? Last we collaborated, necros implemented forcefields. That's about it.

2. who do you guys want to beg? 
 
just as a heads up, i had a semi complete todo list (my complete one got erased with the hard drive wipe)

Ladders
Forcefields (check particles w/master particle timer)
breakables (go over code, bug fix, add in new breakable models)
finish custom shooter code


ladders are currently like doom3 style (you have to face the ladder or you fall off)
kell (and i agree) think HL style is much better (stuck to ladder until you jump and you fly in the direction you looked when you jumped)

forcefields work (and technically they've always been there, since forcefields as they were in hip were just func_togglewalls with particle effects). i copied the particle effects in the code, but i didn't want to copy all the loads of func_counter and junk that hip had, and so i was in the process of making func_particles to have their own timers. that still needs to be finished

breakables, afair are more or less done, just needs testing, i think.

custom shooter code is likewise pretty much done. just needs some lines so you can specify custom models/sprites and to write up some preset projectile settings for common things (all the monster projectiles). and to give it some basic AI for multiplayer and target choice. (esp. w/regards to homing projectiles)
also needs fine-tuning for func_breakables w/regards to custom shooter projectiles damaging them. (they get a special damage multiplier).

if anyone does decide to help out with the coding, you can email me (once in a while, not all the time though. >_<) with questions regarding the code. i never thought someone else would be finishing it, and i don't have the good habit of commenting my stuff much either. 
Hmm 
I think that just the base pack stuff needs to be tidied up to a state where it is releaseable. Edie, for example is a little rough around the edges, and some of the other new enemies are also not quite polished up to the same standards as the other quoth enemies.

On top of the base pack stuff, I would really love to see the bmodel-less triggers that I was begging for previously. Afaik these are fairly easy to implement and once you've made one it should be trivial to make the rest. Also, I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the func_trap still needs a little bit of work as custom/selectable models and sounds don't yet work :/

I could help out a little bit with the qc, but I certainly can't do it all. Maybe I could implement/fix up the few features I need for my (unrelated) map and pass on the code to headthump or whoever ends up on the case. 
Btw 
I hadn't spotted necros's post before I posted mine. I had written most of it before I went to have lunch :)

Anyway, the triggers I mentioned should be implemented as separate entity types rather than replace the existing triggers. I guess the following would be needed:

trigger_once_nbm
trigger_multiple_nbm
----
trigger_secret_nbm
trigger_teleport_nbm
----
trigger_hurt_nbm
trigger_void_nbm
trigger_monsterjump_nbm
trigger_drolejump_nbm

a simple "2" prefix would also be fine I guess :)

obviously, once and multiple are the most commonly used, so they are the ones that need converting. I would also love to see the secret and teleport triggers have this treatment as some maps have a lot of them, my Quoth map in particular has a lot of currently unmarked secrets, and I can't afford to use bmodels or other trigger methods (trigger secret with item pickup or secret door move) so a bmodelless version would be very handy. 
My Free Time Is Going 
to be really limited this Summer. In a few weeks, when classes let out, I'm involved in a restoration project at a college chapel. After that, visiting family in New Orleans, then friends in Dallas. I wont be without a computer, but my focus will be on other things. 
Small Suggestion 
for the quoth update:
a special flag on triggers (at least _once and _multiple) which removes them in quoth. this way one could add warning messages like "dude, this map has to be played in quoth!" that only appear when accidentally loading the map with the wrong progs, because a lot of people tend to skip this information in text files/forum posts. 
Kell 
And why not just only correct the existing bugs of the preliminary quoth update (that includes new monsters like pyro, ogre_flak, sentinel, eddie, scourge, etc... and some others misc functions ) you/necros sent 6 months ago ?

The bugs I'm talking are Scourge's head model missing, ogre_flak's head grey texture, etc... BTW, if there are other issues, I didn't see it...

I guess it would be enough, as all the mappers involved here would have used only used these new features... and the existing Quoth's.
Note that I'm not maybe aware of the others extra new features, and what it the real status of the quoth update..
I would be happy to help on code side, but I'm not a QC specialist at all (I know nothing like you)...

I'm afraid we will have to wait for a lo,ng time again... :| 
For The Love Of GOD 
Go with d3esque ladders, and not HL2 ones. Please. 
 
I'm afraid we will have to wait for a lo,ng time again... :|

look on the bright side, now you have some time to work on your patience. 
Re: Ok 
1. what do you guys still need in the code?

Gaunt drop.

2. who do you guys want to beg?

Whoever can do it. 
Errr 
look on the bright side, now you have some time to work on your patience

I think I already exceed my quota of patience during these last months, waiting for an hypothetical Quoth update release.... that didn't happened yet...

I don't want to remind the all story, everybody knows it. I know Kell has a good excuse for delaying, and that you were/are really busy with Doom3 maps... but now it's really time to to start thinking of a delivery... just for your credibility guys...

What do you think ? 
Er 
why isn't quoth under gpl or something like that? no one is making money from it.. 
 
oh, i'm sorry, was i getting paid to do this? did we miss our intended release date, and now the publisher is coming to kick my ass?

i am in school now, and frankly, quoth is one of the least of my concerns atm. i'm sorry that i had to dump everything on kell, and that he has to put up with you, JPL. frankly, i've found you rather annoying, and you were one of the reasons i was slow to start working on quoth again, esp when you were broaching the idea of actually decompiling the progs.

do i wish i could do it myself? fuck yes. kell and i work extremly well together, and it's always been a pleasure to help him create quoth content. unfortunatly, real life is just too important. that may not be the case for you, dude, but it is definatly so for me. 
Boom! Headshot! 
 
 
calm down bitches! 
 
JPL. frankly, i've found you rather annoying, and you were one of the reasons i was slow to start working on quoth again

This is rather unfair and nasty... 
 
no-one has been as unfair and nasty as JPL 
 
Uber-enthustiastic and kinda impulsive should suit him better, imho... 
Please Stop Arguing 
JPL, Necros never really jumped at the chance to work on the basepack originally, I think it probably ended up going his way because we all wanted some Quoth enhancements and being one of the original creators he felt obliged. Please don't be so angry at Necros (or any of us who haven't been able to finish our maps for various reasons) because this is just a hobby project for all of us - if we can't work on it for whatever reason then you shouldn't get angry at us. It's not like we signed a contract.

I think we will get this pack out eventually, just be patient and try not to be angry at anyone for not meeting deadlines, as those deadlines were only really there to try and motivate people to get things done. Anyway, the delays on this pack are not stopping you from making other Quake maps or doing other things, so please try and be calm about it. 
I'm Quite Serious 
why isnt quoth source available? i, like everyone else, appreciate the work put into it, but i would really like to know why the code aint free... 
Hey, I'm Not In The Base Pack! 
But I'll pitch in anyhow.

There was from an error of judgement a 'promise' (too loaded) that Quoth2 would be available and much better than Quoth. From what I've read everyone went off half-cocked with the basepack. Sorry, but that's the way it looks.

Why do it in the first place? Because Quoth is good. If it takes a couple of months more than you thought for Quoth2 then you either bite the bullet and consign your map to the waiting folder, or release it under Quoth1 with modified entities.

I'm really looking forward to this pack, I've seen a preview of one map, and it was good. This is a hobby. I'd say most of use put more patience, time, effort, blood, sweat and tears into this ten year old game than most others put into thier hobbies. Talking about uber-nerds there.

But it remains a hobby, something you do for fun. If you're that pissed off that your beautiful geometry isn't getting shown then release it solo. But with a little patience it can shine. 
One Last Thing 
The gauntdrop / cc attack would complete that enemy. I can only guess how many walls would be be hit in trying to implement it, though. 
Necros..... Etc... 
I'm very sorry if all of have been hurted by my enthusiasm... what you cal "nastyness"

I just would like to remind you that I also have a life beside Quake mapping, and that Quake mapping is also a hobby for me, but when I commit to deliver something: I do it.

IMHO, it is a matter of respect of others. Now it seems that you don't care about other people but yourself.

So if you are happy like this, no problem... I don't care, but then don't ask people to rely on your deliveries when not ready, and also when you don't care: this how I felt it.

I think it is the last time I will try to join any kind of mapping pack project, for sure.
So will rework my maps, no problem...

You can consider me out of the Base Pack scope now, so I will not be a "problem" for you anymore... I will not complain anymore, don't worry... 
Inertia 
releasing the source at this time could easily result in a hodgepodge of different quoth mods all potentially incompatible to each other. 
Negike 
The hodgepodge is much better than no more Quoth updates at all.

The base pack rules could easily incorporate something like, "use this specific quoth update we have made." 
Pearls For Swine 
A lot of people have argued in this basepack thing. A lot of work has been done and is still going on. I released my map because I felt it was time for it. Had some good reply. Still want to use it for the base pack, because it will be much harder then.

Why this arguing about the deadline? the only deadline I see is a good fermented moment I experienced the original Quake feeling. And if it's realy worthwhile time makes no sense and all the same... I have patience.

I admire Trinca for his proposal that has got this tremendous response.
I admire JPL also for his pulling input to get the thing done, which also can be wrong interprented, but is in my opinion only neccesary. The same goes for Necros and Kell, who are only contributing for the love of the game.

What I want to say?
The more you get involved, the more good advice can be misunderstood.

Sorry for my bad language. 
Urgs 
You guys should have just used the existing Quoth.

And inertia: Forking sucks. 
Spirit 
Yeah, and so does dead development. 
 
Spirit STU :p you dont know Quoth2 :p is brutal for base pack! :p shame that stuff are so delay but what can i say... nobody is pay for is work in here :\

i�making another map for base pack so for me fuck deadline! i dont care anymore... 
Ok, So What Is Up With The Code Stuff? 
Anyone volunteering to help out? I will definitely volunteer to add the bmodel-less triggers and fix up the shooter code, but I am not sure I am capable of doing or have time to do much else.

I guess we could contact the inside3d guys and see if any of them fancy helping out. Even if they don't want to work on it directly, I doubt they will be against giving coding advice etc. if we have any big problems.

How does this sound?

p.s. this doesn't mean I am working on my bp map right now, but it does mean I plan to finish it! 
Quoth + SDA Progs A Possibility? 
Does anyone (Kell, Necros, SDA guys if you are reading) think there is a chance of merging Quoth update with the speedrunning stuff when the Quoth side is done? Seeing people run our maps is always cool, and I'm sure it would be good to get it in there as it would open a lot of new maps up to be speedrun. Not only is there the basepack, but there are the actual quoth maps, the vertical pack and a lot of currently unfinished WIP maps that are all using Quoth.

Anyone knowledgeable think it's a possibility? 
Limited Help 
I can try and help out with any problems you encounter, advising and stuff. But I can't commit to properly working on it for another month, I have exams and stuff until then. So get in touch now, and if it's still unfinished in a month I can step in "full time", so to speak. 
As I See It... 
- JPL wants to make another of his legendary maps, with new Quoth features, which would make his work even better (if that�s possible), and he�s getting impatient due to (understandable) delays.

- K+n don�t have the time to implement these features due to RL.

That�s it, no need for anyone to get upset IMO ;)

I�d say:
JPL: if you want to release, do it, it�s always appreciated by us players to see a new map of yours, I�m sure it will play well in Quoth1.

K+n: no matter how long it takes, we�ll have the patience; Quoth is the best thing since Nehahra and thus an update is worth waiting for.

Keep it up guys, I�m looking forward to the Base Pack. 
I Still 
don't see why we can't have the source code to quoth... 
 
I presume it's because they don't want to see their hard work raped. Which seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable concern, given that they've had such clear intentions from the start with Quoth. It is their creation after all, and theirs alone to do with as they please, free of guilt, obligation, or pressure from outside parties. 
At Least 
they are looking for help to finish it now and since there are people who don't mind helping out I can imagine that it will be finished soon enough and more or less to the spec Kell and Necros wish. 
 
now that i learned more stuff in light�s i might rebuil all wbase in lights term...

i like Quoth mod and what people have done, but i think some words spit in here weren�t good...

necros was a to much violent with JPL, i now nobody is beying payed and real live is first, but A FUCKING SMALL COMMENT IS EASY TO MAKE... 
 
what i mean was if you wasn�t with intencions to work with code you should talk sooner... JPL is not the only base pack mapper...

that�s the

FUCKING SMALL COMMENT YOU SHOULD HAVE MAKE...

you are one of my favorit mappers nad coders but please we all are growups guys... a litle text everybody understands...

go in peace! 
I'll 2nd Pitch (again) 
Why get so pissed off?

I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes for Quoth2, because it'll be better if its not rushed at the last minute (like Warp).

JPL - release your map under Quoth1, but release it as well under Quoth2 / basepack, there's no reason not to.

Yes, it is a hobby, yes we make these maps for fun, but for the love of god don't bring the ego to it.

And I'm saying that to all of you now.

I've seen countless times where there's a wealth of talent that's fucked because nobody can just do the job without bitching.

I dunno; it's your baby, and I know it'll be a good update, but there's no need to make an outcast of JPL - no matter how much he's bugged you. 
Re: 
I've been offline for a week. I have a few emails from people. I'm in the process of replying now. Thanks :) 
 
Kell i rebuild my wbase map becouse lights were very flat... but i already finish this!

abour my second map is 60%, 70% made so might not be in this pack is release will be soon becouse i want to make a vertical map and i start it to :\ and is progressing nicely 
Errr Drunk :\ 
Kell i rebuild my wbase map becouse lights were very flat... but i already finish it!

about my second map is 60%, 70% made, so might not be in this pack if release in close... i want to make a vertical map and already started to :\ and is progressing nicely! ;) so in final of june i might have vertical and my fbase(second base map)done! 
 
so? any news? 
Well... 
let's say... good you're sober again! 
 
just wait 1 or 2 years and maybe it will be release. 
 
put aq nick and then talk...

Kell how things going? 
Ppffff 
Believe it if you want... but I'm not none :P 
Code 
I've got the source and am going to try and get it tidied up soon, but it might be a bit much work for me. Luckily, Necros just about implemented all the stuff that was planned, just it's not all perfectly nice and working.

As for my map, I've barely touched it in months due to lack of time, so perhaps I am not really the best person to be looking after the source. I only offered because nobody else had time and I thought I could help out... well, hopefully I can, but there is the vertical map compo too. Argh. 
 
Preacher was the right man ;) i now everybody got there lives!!! and i respect that becouse i also got my own life, but let�s talk and make stuff easyer to all! and get someone to code! since necros and kell are busy many someone else might help! 
Llo 
My exams finished Friday, but my hard drive took quite a beating the day before that. Still haven't figured out how it happened, but it seems like it's on it's last legs. I'm busy trying to back everything up and get a replacement drive. Once all that happens I'd be happy to look at any code that needs sorting. 
 
that sounds surprisingly good :-) 
Zolikadoom@Gmail.com 
Hello!
Voiewhfoiwegfiuwegfiuwegfiguwefgiu qwe
we�ofewjoifgweiufgweufgguiwefiugweigugfuiweiguf
eflkwelfqhifdfewqfeqefwdfwsdfwqefsdfqwefs adfqef
iuwegfskgfuigdshkfdslhdsfudsfkskgkkggjkgkg
asdfghjksjaaaaajh
s
fadssadjkdsfjfdsjasfdjafdsj
sdfkjhrewulirejtiwotuierotueirotieotuertoirtiu
hdadiuhisuafaladklhuisdfhiosa�a�iohdfashiodf
ailhsdfaslihdfsodihfoisdhafoi 
Spambot Or Not? 
 
Spasmbot 
 
 
it wasn�t me :p 
Nah, He Started 
to ask a question and then his chair went off balance causing his nipple rings to get hung up in his keyboard until he ripped them out. Probably still bleeding to death under his desk at this time. Terrible, yes, but entirely acidental and blameless. 
Was That Pasted From An Old Post? 
just had deja vu... 
Vegas Du 
good to wrench my linguistic back into earthly.
was afraid these aliens never would respond the base pack track,
sorry they got quoted with the transfer rate.
think we had to stay on shareware level quake 
Variation Of The Ol' 
ball flop on the keyboards I did a few years back. Trying to keep it fresh. 
OMG 
do your balls flop? 
Thought That Only Happened Once? 
Just after they drop.

Maybe see the doctor. And if they flip, you're in trouble. 
I Just Thought... 
First his head thumps, then his balls flop.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/headtump.avi 
He He He 
nah, wrong image guys, a ball flop is when you grab your sack and drop 'em like this: ggfgfgsdh

on the keyboards. Hmm, lefty is a little heavier then righty. Could be a medical problem. 
so you jump over the "d" right?
let's call that a base explanation. 
 
at least this pack made me learn something :)

I WILL NEVER AGAIN PARTICIPATE ON A FUCKING PACK 
Chill 
Progress is being made, you have to understand that the critical path is not likely to mean you're working all the time. It's a bit annoying, but it's one of the things about collaboration. Even when things run smoothly it's gonna take at lot longer than you'd expect, look at how long travail's being "almost done"... 
Aye... 
...that last 5% is a real killer. 
 
:p 
Trinca 
why so harsh? At least you generated a toppic that lasted 880 replies. You can't say people ignored your enthousiasm.

And then again, don't end up like my cartoon in #873.
There's a cartoon expo in Lissabon.

I know I'm kiddin now, but also if the pack was released with Christmass (and it would turn out real good, despite of the delay)
It would still be THE BASE PACK afterall. 
 
i dont make same thing as JPL becouse i�m fucking lazy... 
Come On! 
you wrote you had alraedy two maps for the pack. AND...
I apreciate diversity before (you call it?) quality. 
 
but i llost a litle interres in second map... i might change it :\ 
 
I'm confident it will be great when it's ready. I'm willing to wait however long it takes.

:-) HAVE FAITH! ;-) 
Question 
How did Nehahra actually happen? I guess it had obvious leadership... 
In Voluntary Organizations Like This 
tenacity is as important as creativity and skills and all that other stuff :) 
Everyone Has Ideas . . . 
. . . the only thing that matters is if they can finish them or not. 
Nehahra 
Mindcrime was the clear leader for Nehahra, he was almost always on IRC and available for anything we (the mappers) wanted. Most of the new content was already pretty much done when he started recruiting mappers, which probably explains how he got so many mappers involved. 
Oh And... 
Back on topic, I'm still really looking forward to this pak, so good luck to all of you finishing up maps. 
Hmm 
Did kell or necros actually make any commitments to the base pack project? It seemed like quoth2 was a seperate endeavor and you guys just decided to hitch your wagon to it. If you want to learn any lessons about how to finish a project, here's the lesson: don't rely on anything that you don't have control over. I'm sure there are a lot of duke nukem forever TCs that have been delayed becyase of 3drealms, but they shouldn't blame George Broussard. 
That Would Be Mistaken 
t seemed like quoth2 was a seperate endeavor and you guys just decided to hitch your wagon to it

The base pack began with Trinca's idea to make a base based set of maps, someone came up with the idea of basing it on Quoth, Kell contacted me soon after to work on the QuakeC as he and Necros have been expanding on the base content (including the brilliant Eddie idea), but none of the base code was available. I did get some of Quoth base monsters up and running without the code base in the few weeks after. Necros who wasn't aware of the expansion project and Quoth base projects have been hitched together discovered it on this board and assumed the role of QuakeC programmer, and from there the adventure has continued. 
Point Is Not To Point Fingers Though 
since acrimony doesn't help. I support a slow cycle (and kept mum during the flare ups) because it frees everyone involved to work at their own pace and minimizes the intrusion the project would represent on valuable time for all involved.

At the time, the project is in good shape, and good hands. Preach is a far better programmer that I am. I haven't done any deep maths since I was a Michael Abrash fanboy in the 90's. I'm happy to just be working on a map for it, and balance with the time spent on other things. 
I'm Only Pointing Ears... 
why not release it with the original quoth data? I know this sounds stupid after all this negotiating but then it is easier for a mapper to concentrate on and we don't have this delay.

I was in for the original good ol' quake fashion, I'm not that sharp edged shooter.
Although I must admit I too would like new monsters, end boss as I suggested.

But I didn't know it would come to a complete rerun of the Quoth data. 
 
Anyone care to give a small rundown of the new quoth content for us non-involved, to get a rough idea of what to expect? I know it's not finished yet, but it sounds like some new monsters will be in for sure. 
Main Features 
are mostly new monsters. Most of these monsters have been working fine for ages, just not in a polished state that Kell or Necros would be happy to release.

From a mapping point of view, there are a ton of new features that can be used in maps using Quoth and some of us were pushing for this as much as monsters so that in the future more people would make maps for Quoth rather than Vanilla QC or their own mod because of the wealth of options it offers.

Anyway, it's not just the code that isn't yet done, a few of us have had maps in the works for a long time but no time to work on them, so there is a bit of a delay there. Also I think that perhaps the lack of a mailing list and good communication from the start was a mistake. 
Lol ! 
MadFox: why not release it with the original quoth data? I know this sounds stupid after all this negotiating but then it is easier for a mapper to concentrate on and we don't have this delay

Please just note I already proposed it some months ago, and I've been flamed for that... :P

HeadThump: you are rigth, nevertheless I have a single stupid question: Why did Kell provide Quoth2 if his intention was not to finish the stuff ? We were supposed to test it before release, in order to clean it from bugs, and after that: nothing happened... and as you said: from there the adventure has continued and I guess you will still have to wait for "some" time...

In anyway: lazy people suck... :P 
I forgot to sign: JPL the nasty man.... doh ! 
 
Why did Kell provide Quoth2 if his intention was not to finish the stuff ?

It is gonna be finished. Just because your map was quicker to make doesn't mean it's abandoned.

ps: All people making maps for this, please e-mail andrew.denner@btinternet.com sometime soon so I have a current mailing list. 
 
MadFox talk like this before he already release os map... so he dont give a shit.... what he will release in base pack is a copy with some modificacion... 
Bleh 
Unfortunately, it seems you have some memory loss: I remind you that the pack has been planned for Xmas 2006, then delayed to April 1st 2007, then delayed again, and again....
So IMHO, it is not a question of being faster than others (I could have wait for a week or 2, even a month...), it is just a matter of doing what has been said.... I can accept people ask for 1 or 2 more weeks (e.g Vertical Map pack..), but being stucked like we've been, come on, it is not serious :P
Anyway, I'm just observing what happened these last days, and unfortunately for you guys, and in my opinion, the story is far to be finished... ;P Good luck... 
-.- 
 
nice one Spirit!!! very eluciditive ;) 
Good One, Spirit 
I wouldn't have got involved in this latest round
of recrimination if it wasn't for a glaring public misperception expressed in post #890. Of course Kell is involved and committed to the project, I was recruited by him! 
 
i now people got they owns lives... and real life is much much important than this! but he didn�t ask for nothing.... and base pack wasn�t even quoth first idear... people just ask to be... i just wish people talk more rather then ignore to get a resulucion like was made with Preach :) thks god! the savior!!! 
Than 
Thanks. 
Arrgh 
just release it before this thread counts 1000 posts! include the release candidate of quoth v2.0, enabling only the working features, and be done with it. 
No. 
 
?qu�? Col�ras Mucho Loco 
trinca, please stop your flaming as you do in #899. As I wrote in the beginning of this toppic I asaked Kell on Mirc if it would be possible to add the end boss to this base pack.
This was not an easy thing, he said.
So I had already let you know I would release it as a stand alone, and would participate on quote monsters.
As the whole thing took so long things went different.

But what I just don't get is your hars comments as if you want to make people bred while you yourself ought to know it are the wrong people your blaming.
You son't know where I'm working on at the moment and as far I can see you don't give a damn! I tried to support you but you're responding with lazyness.

Alright, if you have the feeling I just want to
participate on a map everyone has already seen, go ahead, be my day, but I do not have the feeling you realy care.
You never took advantage to ask Kell or Necros,
not in this toppic and not on Mirc. So why are you blaming me?

And don't, don't ever talk sh!t on me again! 
 
...

man i�m 36 year old...

just that i say! 
 
AND I�M NOT FUCKING SPANISH

I�M PORTUGUESE 
Trinca Must Be Calm Down 
http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/returntolorien.jpg
http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/alongtheriver.jpg
http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/alongtheriver2.jpg
http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/kayana.jpg
http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/wonderfullifesunset.jpg

BTW, the site has wonderful photos...

In anyway, it's too late, drama it has been already consumed, and now guys it's up to you release the pack...

Trinca, come on... calm down... ;) 
Nice Shots 
The last one ( http://criss.site.voila.fr/vue/wonderfullifesunset.jpg ) interests me because it could be sourced from a single photo, or just designed completely on a computer. Makes one wonder about what our criteria are for judging abstract art... :) 
 
cancel this fucking pack 
Nyet 
 
#913 
cancel your fucking bitching. (yes, I know that was predictable)

We are just a few guys on the net making maps and code in our free time, so if we don't hit our deadlines then it's not really affecting anyone. We don't have shareholders to please and we are mapping solely for our own enjoyment - not because you or anyone else is giving us money.

As JPL has shown, we are all free to release our maps when and how we like, and the rest of us chose to put them together in a pack. We will finish it one day and you can either play it or not - I guess if you want the pack cancelled, you don't want to play the maps, so why do you even care enough to read this thread and make a post?

...oh, because this is the internet, a place where fucking idiots are able to speak their mind about shit they apparently don't even care about but for some reason feel they need to have an opinion on nonetheless. 
 
i�m still working on my second map... and fixing the first at same time :) 
Quoth Beta Pak 
My episode 1 project is definitely going Quoth, and I have a half-finished base map that I will probably convert, too, so is it still possible to get that Quoth beta pak?

Would that even make sense at this point? 
 
no idear... i think deadline is still huge... 
No, I Meant 
if it's adviseable to use Quoth beta for mapping. I seem to remember that some of you guys used that. And if it's usable for mapping, I'd like to know where I can get it.

I do not want to jump on the Base Pack wagon :-P

gb 
That 
would really be up to Kell and Necros because it is their material, and I can understand as a point of professionalism that they would not want some of the less polished aspects of the pack used generaly just yet. Perhaps there are some individual things in the pack they would be willing to give there blessing to using, but that I can't say.

I don't think it is too late to join the project though if anyone wants to contribute. I know Trinca, Than and I are working on our maps this week , and Preach has been sharing some new code. We also took Metl's advice and there is an active e-mail list going on as well. So things are looking up. 
I See, But 
the alternative is to wait until "Quoth2" is ready and then adjust for the changes, re-playtest etc.

It's not unlikely that Quoth2 will happen _before_ my ep. 1 thing and Ijed's ep. 3 remake. So nothing would leak before Quoth is ready.

I might e-mail Kell. 
Err 
Headthump said: ...and I can understand as a point of professionalism that they would not want some of the less polished aspects...

I still don't agree with the whole idea that the development of QuothII must be up to just a couple of guys working in private who get to sit on a half-finished pack at the inconvenience of a lot of mappers. My stance isn't anything personal against Kell or Necros, but as an open source advocate I have a strong distaste for artificial limitations imposed on the func community as a result of closed-source development.

Everyone knows in-progress code is messy, there is no issue with professionalism, just completeness. Speaking of professionalism, Quoth is free, so I don't see the harm done to Kell or Necros by making the incomplete version of QuothII fully freely available. 
Arrrrrrrrrggggggghhh 
Make maps, not war! 
^_^ 
metlslime is the wise man :) 
For All The Sexy Funcsters 
New Screenies of JackBoot Primate (my base pack map).

Started out as a purely Tiddle's style Industrial/Morter design, I've added some detail using Zerst�rer bunk textures to get a heavy grunge fusion going on here:

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/primate22.jpg

This screenshot is accessible from this vantage point:

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/primate29.jpg

Some smooth shadowing for the ladies:

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/primate31.jpg

There are dead bodies up ahead (keep your eyes averted from the left hand corner beam. Ignore it. Oooh look, a health pack!)

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/primate35.jpg 
Looks . . . 
Grim. And that's good.

The whole pack looks like its shaping up to be great. 
Looks 
like a good place to kill monsters in. Bring on the hordes! 
Mmm... 
Looks gorgeous! 
Thanks Everybody! 
One thing that stands out though is I've lazily over used that riveted sheet metal texture and need to vary it up. I'll keep it where it is on that wall in the pic primate35 though. Thanks to AquiRe's lighting tool that one has a nice supersaturated almost purple-ish undertone. 
Ht 
pretty nice...
is the alignment of the brown riveted tex on purpose, so that the rivets are not always on the outside?
Like in the last shot:
http://mortisville.quakedev.com/primate35.jpg
It would almost seem that a smaller texture would fit better? 
He He 
(keep your eyes averted from the left hand corner beam. Ignore it. Oooh look, a health pack!)

That was the part I was too lazy to fix, well too blurry eyed actually at the end of an evening of mapping to deal with at the time. The rivet texture shouldn't be on the crossbeams at all, but I also still need to work on the brushwork in that spot too so I just slopped the texture down for now. 
Two Small Quoth2 Wishes 
Could the Quoth team consider those:

1. Missing sound when a key door is opened.

That sound is not played in vanilla Quake (bug) and Quoth1. Qdqstats (and Travail) have it. It's probably only a small fix.

2. Key drops

That is probably my #1 Quake mapping wish, to have an enforcer death-drop a keycard. No idea how hard this is to implement though.

I think at least the first one counts as a bug report. 
 
#1 is easily fixed. Just changing which channel the key sound plays on, as I recall. 
Updated 
Check your e-mails guys, new patch out. 
HT 
I like your architecture and details, but that map badly needs some more color. Like light fixtures, or maybe even a proper secondary color. Now it's basically just brownish grey/greyish brown. 
More Triggers 
Spirit just came across this site: http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/quake/trig.php
Among other things, there are also some examples for additional triggers that might be useful in some situations, e.g. trigger_changetarget, trigger_random, trigger_if. 
Vigil 
I agree. What made the original Tiddle maps work well was the strong contrast of color and material themes. It is something I'm aspiring to get back to while mapping this weekend. 
Random Additional Quoth Ideas 
monster_bat

Like a flying voreling, this would be primarily an irritation/atmosphere tool. Especially in conjunction with the flashlight - they could react to light sources. A model could be pretty small and simple, as could the skin.

monster_eel

A swimmer that can exist in slime, unlike rotfish.

Proximity mines (lots of existing mods, would just have to be incorporated.) Perhaps DM only.

Spheres like in Quake2 mission pack 2. Defender sphere, hunter sphere, primarily useful in DM.

sorry if I'm babbling, I'm tired. -> bed

=) 
Uhm 
You guys don't know the "no requests" bit from the Quoth readme, do you?

Q: The new monsters are cool, but I'd like [insert generic monster concept here] for my latest map. Would you make it for me?

A: Feedback = Good. Playtesting = Good. But we don't do requests. Sorry.
 
Hey Where Can I Dl The Source To Mod It Myself 
 
Spirit 
True. Was still worth a try though. 
Note... 
Preach is getting quite a lot of stuff done. Necros had done most of the stuff we had asked for already so I'm not sure finishing it off is going to be too hard for Preach.

Whilst I doubt that any requested monster types will be added, I wouldn't put those trigger ents out of the question because 1. the work to add them is fairly minimal 2. some of them add a lot of general functionality to Quoth for mappers and 3. the code is already there on that page, so maybe preach won't mind adding them.

I think we are still lacking conditional triggers in the current version, and people are always asking about how to do them in the mapping help thread, so maybe that would be a nice addition for anyone wanting to make Quoth maps.

I'll go through the list (http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/quake/trig.php) now and give my thoughts on each trigger type. I don't have any need to use most of these things in any of my current maps, but I think that most of them could be beneficial to future maps.

trigger_changetarget - sounds amazingly useful and can probably be implemented in a general manner without much code. Allowing a trigger to make trains or monsters change path could be really cool, and in addition to the random trigger would allow the mapper to set up roaming monsters of some sorts without big changes to the AI.

trigger_random - quoth already supports multiple targets, so presumably having a trigger that can select from valid targets and trigger one of them randomly wouldn't be too hard but would probably be pretty useful.

trigger_explode - info_notnull can already be used to trigger explosions, although they can only be used once and the hack can cause problems when trying to load maps in deathmatch with some engines. Could be useful.

trigger_lots - quoth already supports triggering of multiple entities with target target2 target3 etc.

trigger_sight - Sounds a bit esoteric but a more general version that would also allow the mapper to set trigger on sight and within a given range could be a little more useful.

trigger_setspeed - I think quoth already supports this for func_trains although I'd have to try it to see how simple it is to use.

trigger_message - useful for coop. The option to have a sound and delay built into it would be nice.

improved path_corner/func_train - not sure, but I think necros added these for one of his maps but it didn't end up in the quoth documentation.

toggleable hurt/push triggers - sounds very useful. A more general implementation that allows any trigger type to be deactivated/reactivated would be fantastic, but I'm not sure how much work that would require.

doors that trigger after open/close - would be useful mostly because it would mean that if the movement of a door was blocked, any trigger based on the door movement wouldn't fire until the door was fully open/closed. Only as an additional option to the existing behavior though.

trigger_if - Could be extremely useful, although it sounds like a pita to implement. Can it even be done with one entity? I think you would need to have a trigger_output entity or something that could be triggered to activate or deactivate and then when the main trigger was triggered all of the active outputs would fire. That would allow if triggers, but MAYBE a more flexible system would be better. I'm not sure.

I'd like to hear Preach's thoughts on the trigger extensions. 
Trigger_sight Ftw. 
I can think of so many scenarios in which that would be awesome. 
Than 
You forgot the func_destructable (or whatever it was called). It's in Quoth1 but doesn't work.

Yes, no requests; but to have that working and destroyable by enemies and the player would be the muts nuts. 
Preach / Than / Kell 
On my current project, I used Quoth, and I have a weird effect when (quick)saving, and reloading the map. The monster count (at the end of the level) doesn't correspond to any of the skillset.. Any idea about this issue ?? 
Quoth Request 
A flag on all flame lights / braziers for 'burning damage' - the player takes 1 damage per 0.5 seconds that they're within 8 units of the light's origin. With the 'BBBB played with fire' deathmessage, of course. Wouldn't work for the tall braziers but the others would be ok. It'd just save a bit of legwork and entity count.

Ok, no more requests.

Except maybe drowning, burning and corroding monsters. And weight physics. With tipping. 
The Caretaker 
The way I see it is that I've taken over coding for Quoth, but I've haven't taken over designing. I'm a caretaker. So I'm trying to work with a soft touch, not really adding things that aren't already established in Quoth, just implementing promised features and bug fixing stuff. Even adding the key dropping feature was probably overstepping those bounds. If there was something that is absolutely needed for a one of the maps in this pack, then I'd probably relent.

Also, if you can persuade Kell or Necros it's a good idea, I'll add it. 
Well 
Something like the built in flame damage would be a nice thing to have, but its not a map breaker and I reckon you've got enough on your plate with all the 'promised' stuff.

I'm putting something together now in Quoth which will be finished after Quoth2 is out; so I'll most likely backtrack and integrate the new features / enemies it contains.

Just thinking that anything that makes Quoth a more universal Quake mod can't be a bad thing; ie. 'why use Quake standard progs anymore?' 
Hmm 
... because the weapons and other player resources are actually balanced against the monsters? 
 
Just thinking that anything that makes Quoth a more universal Quake mod can't be a bad thing; ie. 'why use Quake standard progs anymore?'

That's what I was thinking. The trigger related stuff isn't going to imbalance the gameplay because it's more for map scripting etc. But yeah, I guess it's important to get the opinion of Kell and Necros before messing with things too much. 
Flame Damage 
is the single most irritating thing I've ever encountered in a Quake map. 
Yes 
The Quake Guy is too bad ass to be damaged by mere torches. 
Text_fish 
yeah, I don't like it either because it feels like the mapper has gone to some effort to add something totally pointless that punishes the player for no reason.

It was pretty pointless in Q3 too and the sound effect was shit.

Besides, now you can add trigger_hurt without using a precache slot, you can set them up manually for each torch and do the same shit if you really want to irritate the player. 
Backtracking 
as Ijed said, would be required for maps currently in progress (as Ijed put it, "something") but aimed at "after Quoth2 is out" :/

In short, I still think that "backtracking" is suboptimal. We'd have to redo monster placement and playtesting. I got the progs updates, but the pak updates would be nice too. Kell, did you choose to not reply or did you just not get my email? Or is there "another reason"? :) 
Feuer Fresser! 
it more irritates when flames don't hurt! 
Preach: Quoth2 Bug Reports 
Sorry, not at my computer, so I put them here.

1. After dying in f. ex. slime, the screen is still tinted upon respawn. Happens regularly. Example is the Quoth startmap, die in the lava and respawn with red tinted screen. Tint goes away when picking up armor etc.

2. togglewall (forcefield) is buggy. The particles often aren't spawned for no apparent reason, but the wall is obviously working/blocking. To do with proximity of other ents? angle? texture? other forcefields? Noise/noise1 key isn't working on togglewall at least when used as forcefield. I have to use a trigger_multiple for playing a blocking sound.

3. Breakable is buggy. It looks for rock.mdl but can't find it. It also can't find some impact sounds. pak issue? :(

Feature request (hey, I reported bugs): Could the forcefield only spawn particles when touched? That shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Star Trek style.

gb 
Bump 
Progress 
Lots is going on behind the scenes here, don't worry.

The 1st bug in the post above was kinda interesting though, as it turns out it's a very long standing engine bug. If you're in lava and you execute "v_cshift 0 0 0 0" command, then restart the level, the lava tint remains and v_cshift doesn't affect it. This only occurs in software rendering engines though. I have just this minute discovered a workaround for this though, "v_cshift 0 0 1 0" looks the same, because the intensity of the colour shift is zero, but the bug doesn't occur for this value.

Fun time trick: run winquake, and type "v_cshift 0 0 0 -2500" in. Better than the TF spy's grenade, that's for sure. 
Phait... 
...please send source for PH8DM2 to my gmail acc. Ta! 
 
still working on mine second maps 70% made ore one month t might be ready! 
Ya... 
...if it drags on a bit more I might be able to add this to the mix:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6071/dissp08zl1.jpg 
No Objections Here 
I still have plenty of work to do on my map and I wont get to it until the Indian Summer map is finished. No official due date has been given, I suspect it will depend on the next pak release, and come through a consensus, and typicaly such things are scheduled weeks after a consensus is reached.

Trinca has the URL for the beta pak tucked away somewhere, so I would suggest shooting him an email if you need it. 
Hellz Bellz 
that looks straight out of a Doom3 mod with model to brush designs and everything! 
WOoOoh Yesss! 
What is this texture set? D3remix?
Sweet honeycomb pavements and lacy metal beams...
Fine lighthing.
Me want it! 
Suggestion 
If anyone wants to make a map for this pack, without taking a ton of effort, I suggest my recently GPL'ed base map for the task :D 
Distrans 
It's nice to see how good you use Doom3 texture set ;)
You rock ! 
OK... 
...thanx for the encouragement, I'm putting this one at the top of the "to finish" list. 
Distrans 
looks good! It would be awesome if high-res versions of the textures were downloadable with the map too, seeing as they must exist somewhere! 
Starbuck 
Just extract the stuff from on eof the .pk3 file of Doom3 game: you'll get the stuff... 
 
i�m making my second map :\ but is going slow!

first is finish i might just change small stuff 
Ooh 
You rock Dis. So hard. 
 
ok release date was december 2006...

i start a second map as almost everybody know and will ready in next 3 months for sure... so i will release my maps in december i think 1 year and 4 month are more then enought wait... the guys that have and want to release is ok if dont will be release later on!

i will not wait anymore... and i will not change my maps in Quoth stuff that was provide to me... if other dont have time i respect, but i dont have to wait for anyone!

thks for all that start a map and hope you can have then ready same time as me!

god bless you all and my lovely contry (Portugal) 
Trinca 
You want to release for Quoth 1 then? 
Oh And... 
if so, remember to take out some Bobs.

^^ 
 
no release with Quoth2 avaible at the moment... it will be compatible with final version for sure... if isn�t already a final version out... 
^^ 
You mean including the beta pak and progs?!

You sure thats OK with Kell/Preach? 
Trinca: 
it seems unlikely that they would be okay with you releasing their beta code and content. You should switch to Quoth1 if you want to do it. 
 
still 3 month... i think is more then enough... is not fair to wait more for me... this pack should been made in 6 month and will take for me 1,6 year... is fair for me? that have two maps on hold? man i hate to have stuff on hold... i my last in a project... for sure...

i will not wait i dont give a shit if the guys provide me the stuff was to be used... not to be on hold forever!!! 
 
metlslime is not fair man i worked a lot in my fucking maps lost lots of hours and now i have to change all the crap...

FUCK THIS!!! 
If The Pak Isn't Ready 
by December, I can put a pack together for you like I did for the Summer 06 base map. It'll use the entities that you used for the two Quoth maps but replace the pak materials with equivalent strength monsters and the like. It wont be nearly as gorgeous as Kell's work, but its an alternative if you don't want to wait.

Personally, I'm going to wait for the pak to be ready for my maps, but I don't mind helping if you want to go in a different direction.

In the meantime don't be so mean to Metlslime. 
Blah Blah Blah.. 
It is a never ending story... Quoth2 or not Quoth2, pack or not pack... and still no Quoth2 official release available...

Well, 1 year and 9 months of delay... quite unacceptable in real office life... quite funny here..

Thanks God I'm sure now that I took the good decision to outcast myself from this pack last year...

Nasty Bad Spirit

Doh ! 
 
and i wasn�t mean to Metlslime i think he is a nice guy and didn�t ofend him :p 
 
Well, 1 year and 9 months of delay... quite unacceptable in real office life... quite funny here..

See also: Duke Nukem Forever, Prey, Mechwarrior 2. 
Nasty Bad JPL ( ;) ) 
Trinca: Never EVER release private beta stuff without approval from the creators.
Just go for "Quoth1" if you want to release it.

You guys suck at counting days, where does "1 year and 9 months" come from? That's 1 year too much.

About being offended for having worked so much: Don't start working for a not-so-hard-administrated (couldn't find that word of a captain guiding his ship through shallow water) project. I think I said that before. Also the Quoth readme states "no requests", I also said that before.
If you can't see this being finished anywhen then branch out and release your map standalone (not using the beta material you were provided by Kell&Necros). Or even re-organise it with strong hand and eager coders with lots of free time for your wishes and requests. Or even put the work to your scraps, be glad you made it and hopefully learned something and make the next map better (one can always do that and be happy). :) 
Stop Whining 
With Preach onboard, you have the best chances to get this thing out properly.
See the extra delay as an opportunity to polish up your maps (yes, they need it!). Actually, the code is already done, it's only withheld until than has finished his map... 
Spirit 
where does "1 year and 9 months" come from?

It comes from the initial release date proposal (See post #61-62)... Xmas 2006 was the target date...

And I'm as nasty / sarcastic as possible in this thread: it deserves... :P 
 
We here at func_msgboard take the long view, y'see. 
 
my last post!!! today start converting my map and is not even to Quoth is ID Base... at least my SDA friends will play it more easaly...

both my maps are out, i think one thing is respect and nobody respected... so enjoy the pack in 2010 is will be release in that date... i dont give a shit! 
Proper English... 
my last post in here!!! today i started converting my maps and it will not even be Quoth1 is pure ID Base... at least this way my SDA friends will play it more easily...

both my maps are out of this pack, i think nobody give a shit and only Preach was great to help us and nobody respected deadlines and shit... so enjoy the pack in 2010 if will be release in that date... i dont give a shit anymore...

peace to all 
And... 
... hurray!!! A beer for you Trinca: you made the good choice!! Who's next ? 
Not Me 
I'm not in the Base pack, but I'm also (co-)working on a Quoth2 based project. I can only say that both Kell and Preach have always been really friendly and competent, bugs have been fixed within days (!!!) and I'm absolutely sure they will come through with this.

Quoth2 is gorgeous, it's the best thing _ever_ to happen to Quake and I'm willing to wait till 2010, yes, if necessary.

Cut the guys some slack. Even better, start helping them. Go find sounds on freesound, some are still needed. Go find bugs and report them. Go write documentation. Go send them beer and pizza and sweets and GOSH even money. They deserve it.

And if you decide to release your maps now, why can't you do it in a calm, tidy fashion like a grown-up, instead of starting a flame war? 
 
golden_boy please STFU you dont know what u talking ok?

and i�m already growup... i got my own life go play with your cock and STFU nobody ask you nothing... and i didn�t say that kell or Preach werent nice guys...

got nothing to do? go play with cock... asshole... 
Golden_boy 
And if you decide to release your maps now, why can't you do it in a calm, tidy fashion like a grown-up, instead of starting a flame war?

Well, I can just say you are right, but I really encouage you to read the thread since the very beginning... you'll understand why we are so sarcastic ;) 
When Do I Win My Bet? 
the one where this never gets released 
Notice My Sly Usage Of The Dkt Icon There. 
 
am happy to have finished the startmap for the base pak.

Strange I get so less attitude...
or was it longitude?

please, don't mean shit man! 
Trinca 
Next time, try talking from your mouth please. 
Scampie 
please return immediately to Base, the Starfleet needs your assistance!

(tbh I don�t think pouring more oil into the fire is gonna motivate people to release this :( 
Strange, 
that people who developpe new convertions for others to work on don't show up or answer...

stranger than people who work on co�peration with others and do answer get the full load! 
Just 
because I don't want to end in the land of 1001 posts... 
MadFox 
Maybe because we are considered as morrons... and even worst...

Nevermind, they are too busy (I hope) to answer... :P 
Sielwolf, Madfox 
I cannot speak for others, but from what I saw and heard very recently, things are looking good.

Relax. 
JPL 
You can safely assume they are busy, yes. *Please* stop, you're not helping. 
CZG, But When Daikatana Was Released... 
...wasn't it worth every minite :P 
No. 
 
Daiakatana 
off topic, but I really enjoyed the demo... well, some of it. And the shotcycler and rocket launcher were both ace. 
Diakatainata 
Yeah, the demo was pretty amazing, mostly because I liked the foggy, rainy outdoor areas of the swamp level. It was downhill from there on. 
So... 
I haven't really been following what's going on here and this thread is really long, so can I ask what's going on? Is this pack cancelled? If so, are people still releasing their maps? 
Quoth2 
Is going ahead but the delay means alot of those that were / are in the base pack have released thier maps standalone - Trinca and JPL, so far.

Though I hope they release deluxe versions when Quoth2 is complete. 
Ijed 
As necros asked in #824... will I be paid to do this?... x_0

Seriously, I already answered, and it is NO. I will do a new map with Quoth2 when it will be released... As of today, I'm waiting patiently for this day... hoping it will come soon...

Nevermind.... :P

Who wants a beer ? :P 
Thats What I Meant 
It'd just be nice to see sentinels in the SRC, when they're on general release, that is.

In theory you'd not even have to do a full build, just a shuffle of existing monsters / entities, then apply it to the existing bsp. 
 
i got another map in progress maby 80% done... and is quoth2... so i�m still in this boat! 
Ah I See 
what's the deal with Quoth 2, are Kell/Necros releasing details of what's gonna be in it? Is there a release date yet? 
 
as far as i know only Kell and Preach are working on it!

and there is no date... my map is a litle delay will take more two month at least

with luck maby in christmas 
 
errr forgot to say :) preach is always senting us new updates of Quoth2 :) with real great stuff 
SCARSM!!! 
so are we going to aim for 2008 Christmas? 
SARCASM 
i mean 
I Am 
I've been planning to get out Worldcraft again in December for a while now, so if goes accoridngly my map will be ready for Christmas. Can't really do anything until December because I've got an exam on the 2nd and I can't be slacking off studying...

...even though I've basically wasted an entire day today looking at wikipedia and youtube. FFS. FUCKING INTERNET. 
My Map 
Is a big base. Might have it done before Christmas. Infact I will have it done before christmas. Infact it'll probably be ready for a spot of testing in 2-3 weeks.

Its not as poorly planned as the Sickbase (Sickbase was sick in more than one meaning of the word...), quite big. I have heard about this Base_Pack business, so I mean if you think my map might qualify... ?

Ill put up some screanies in a short while, and then theres the whole business of testing.

I PROMISE this one will work in Fitzquake! 
Oh Yeah 
I havent read this whole thread. It seems like an epic. Quoth2 excites me, but I have no idea what its gonna be. I found some sort of 'Quoth2 Beta' .zip on the Shub-Hub, downloaded it and it was 3 .bsp's, so not having any kind of actual Quoth2 content (i.e progs, mdls etc), I havent looked at it.

My map will be Quoth1. .

I see Trinca is like me - 'healthily impatient and keen'.

Trinca - I'm like you. I couldnt give shit about the _pack, if there's nothing to realease with my map I will just post it on its own.

I mean I'm fairly new to this sort of business, I have never collaborated with anyone on anything (no-one has asked..), but I think I'm learning. Hell - I might even make a speedmap soon! 
 
RickyT23 email Preach :) he is the one that is coding for Quoth2 
Depends 
If my cranky rig (only two years old) holds up, my schedule will pretty much mirror Than's schedule. I've already missed two possible days for mapping in the last week to take care of some problems. It seems to be fine now, but cross my fingers.

I have a laptop too, but I find it impossible to be proficient with my choice of map editors on it. 
So Stupid Question 
When Quoth2 will be delivered ? 
 
i�m going to be honest!

hurray for Preach for giving is time in this!

About old Quoth team... it was a good mode but the lack of replies on mails and stuff i think will kill this real fast...

i lost all the pleasure to map for Quoth and i will probably remake my other map to... because NOBODY IS FUCKING PAYD LIKE NECROS WROTE TO JPL... but get paid is not just for modellers or coders�

didn�t done it yet because I�m working in another map and i�m all horny about it :p


but no one also pay us to map for this mod... so with people so nice in Quoth team i quit! sick of kids... already got one... and another one on the way

anyway people that even bothered to coment other people work even deserv to be in this comunity...

stop reading func_ and go to hell 
Go To Hell Trinca 
 
 
thks czg you rock! 
SORRY FOR STILL BEYNG A NOOB 
anyway fuck you to.. u never posted in a map i made... 
Um, Wtf? 
when i brought up the argument about being paid, i was talking about how i couldn't devote 100% of my time to working on quoth (as i would if it was a job), not that i ever expected to be paid for making a user mod for quake.
yet, there was pressure for a quoth2 release surpassing even what i've seen given to commercial companies when they delay a release. some of you guys gave the stalker community a run for it's money.

maybe some of that *was* my fault. i'm not a PR guy, i don't post to placate, only to update. i can't word my posts to make them look like i'm answering questions when i'm not, to trick people into allowing more delays.

also, at that time, i had just started at a new school, was working to afford said school and wanted to learn d3 mapping to help 'fatten' up my portfolio.
i'm sorry you seem to think that me working on a fan mod is more important than that, but the truth is, it's not.

honestly, don't try to sit here and put words in my mouth with BS like the above. ok, whatever, you're not a kid. grats. all i see is some embittered guy, who, because he was forced to wait to release his map, now sits back flinging ad hominem attacks around.

in any case, i really don't want to continue with this discussion. i vowed never to post here again after i stopped working on it, but i felt i should break the vow to clear this up. beyond that though, i'd rather this be closed. 
Oh Shit! 
What have I done??!

Look - Quoth 1

If you ask me it was good!

I have enjoyed playing it and mapping for it!

Its better than mapping standard quaker IMHO, so thats what Im doing.

My map is too big no - hunk alloc block failure BTW, so im now 'doctoring' it and it will be sooner than i might have originally thought....

Anyhoo..

I would map for Quoth 2 and email for progs and stuff, but its not like Ive had my nose rubbed in it, and yeah, Quoth1 has it's shotcomings, dont get me wrong, but its good, so im not complaining. Look as GTA4 - theyre all getting piad to make that, and I wander howmany death threats theyve had for putting it back for half a year?

I mean - I havent been told when Quoth2 is gonna be finished cause I get the impression (from lack of reply to small posts quizzing it) that itll be 'done when its done'. When its done, I hopei'll have the time to map for it!!

Anyway - New map on the way, gonna finish it v.soon I think! If anyone has anythig to say regarding my map, or some sort of pack then please do. i.e - solutions for hunk alloc block errors (cause tha room I added today (meant to be one of the last) took me over the limit for FitzQuake) please help hunkAB?! If not, room will be start map ;)

also testers - any tester be my guest, I mail you in a few days, please let me know if you wanna help test - Trinca please test (you are a good tester)

JPL?
Mr IJed?

Who else?

Mr Lunaran - I bet your testing is really good!
(sorry BTW, I honestly feel like a n00b!:-( 
Fuck This 
naaa RickyT23 i quit! 
Tambien 
No can do I'm afraid.

Also, (guess what I'm going to say next) you'll probably get a better response in the screenshots and betas thread.

Even if everyone is still checking back here to warm thier hands over the continued fallout. 
Open Source 
plz :) 
 
necros everybody got there owns lives... and what we ever asked was a fucking replay... i email you at least two times to ask you the size of monters so i could make a .qrk same as .fgd but to Quark and i even get a email saying No i can�t i�m to fucking bussy for that shit!!! and i whould undestand...

but not reply to people is not nice... anyway i quit... Quoth was a fun mod to map... but i lost the fun... i even talk with SDA team so they can change the stuff to be possible to run maps for speedruns... but guess i was also losting my time... anyway i will not waste no more time on this...

i wish you all the best in live seriusly... hope you someday work in a big games company becouse you are a outstanding mapper...

good day all! 
 
fuck my shity english for now on i will write PORTUGUESE 
Je Non Comprend Pas 
Qu'est que ce 'Tambien'? 
 
Tambien is spanish... means "me also" 
I Thought It Meant 'Your Mom Is Fat And Gross' 
Tambien 
Ah, Oui - Merci Beaucoup :-) 
Guess Ill leave my map as standalone thingy then.

Gotta say though, I'll stop posting on this thread now, but as for having an idea - 'Base Pack', this thread shows a pretty spectacular death of an idea - almost commendable in style :P

'...Last survivor of the Nostromo - signing out' 
 
I think we got exelent mappers in this small comunity... i made a mistake back than!

Posted by Trinca [85.88.130.59] on 2006/08/07 06:57:42

people dont work wel as a team... becouse everybody got there owns lives!!!

we are not kids anymore! so is better if we still working in our own projects... 
RickyT23 / Trinca / Necros 
Rickyt23: are you french ? And sorry, I'm very busy at the moment so I don't think I would find time to beta test your map.

Trinca: Calm down please...

necros: Seriously, Trinca's point is valid: he / I asked several times about having a status about Quoth2 progress, and we never get a single answer. A single "we don't know when it will be ready" would have been enough, I would have been happy with such an answer, but I never get any single reply, only insulting posts, cause we were to "hurry" and "enthusiast"... maybe to aggresive regarding your point of view. And the fact you flamed me personnally just helped me to deliver my map earlier, and self outcast me from this pack.
So back to the past: why did you (Kell, to be honest) delivered a preliminary release if the intention was to not deliver ? I can understand at this time you were not in the loop, and also it would have been intersting for us to understand you didn't want to be part of the "adventure"... Many people here were expecting Quoth2, and get nothing, the first was me... What is the logic behind this acts ? I understand very well that you are a hobbyist, like Trinca, like me, like all of us here, but please, never answering a post, never answering emails is very rude IMHO...
Also the fact I tried to emulate everybody trying to find unfair solution, like delivering the preliminary pack in without Kell's agreement, was just a way to make people reacts... and when I say people I'm talking of the Quoth2 stakeholders ! and believe me, I would not have done it without Kell's permission. I respect too much his work for that..

Well, and finally, what will we get: nothing, no pack, and 2 years of delay, and many crys.. What a positive status !

Anyway, quoth2 will see the light of days (who knows when?) one day, and I will be the first to applause, and make a map with this mod...

And now, damned sons of bitches, go map and stop crying on the past... prepare the future please... ;) 
 
let�s rename pack name!!!

now name is:

Delayed Pack

and release date

2010

please a admin change topic :p 
 
he / I asked several times about having a status about Quoth2 progress, and we never get a single answer

as i said, i'm not a PR. i only post when i have something new to say. when someone asks me 'are you ready yet' and the answer is the same as the last time i was asked, i see no reason to reply.

why did you (Kell, to be honest) delivered a preliminary release if the intention was to not deliver ?

i don't think i can ever understand this point of view...

do you honestly think kell and i were sitting there forumulating a plan to purposely fuck everyone over by claiming to make a mod and then tricking everyone by not following through? if so, you have too much time on your hands to think about these things.

of course kell and i wanted to complete it to the best of our abilities. we both have similar work ethics. we believe in doing something right while accepting the minimum of tradeoffs. you have no idea how much discussion there was about what to skip and what to keep in. we felt, since it was going to be the last quoth, that we should get as much as possible in, even though there was pressure for a release.

Also the fact I tried to emulate everybody trying to find unfair solution, like delivering the preliminary pack in without Kell's agreement, was just a way to make people reacts

and you wonder why i flamed you personally? either you were serious about it, and that makes you ethically wrong, or you used it as a way to get us to post, which is manipulative and underhanded.

anyway, i'm off to eat-- i don't really know what else there is to say on this subject. 
Necros 
do you honestly think kell and i were sitting there forumulating a plan to purposely fuck everyone over by claiming to make a mod and then tricking everyone by not following through?

I'm pretty sure it was not the case, though...

and you wonder why i flamed you personally? either you were serious about it, and that makes you ethically wrong, or you used it as a way to get us to post, which is manipulative and underhanded

And do you want me to react after twenty emails/post with no reply ? It was the only way to make you react !

In anyway, I'd be please to see Quoth2, and to use it... And for sure you acted as a bastard (sorry, but this reality)... at least it is my point of view..

End of story. 
Errata 
And do you want me = And how do you want me... 
I Haven't Even Been Involved In This Shitfest. 
I've just been sitting back and eating popcorn. But I was going to strain something if I didn't respond to this:

the answer is the same as the last time i was asked, i see no reason to reply.

It's called communication, and it's something that human beings normally do with one another.

If someone asks "What's going on?", then "Nothing's changed; go away for at least a week or two and quit bugging me." is a pissy but acceptable answer.

Even "Go away and quit bothering me; I'm not going to respond to you anymore." puts a footnote on things, and explains the silence thereafter.

Simply not responding is unacceptable, passive-aggressive horseshit that leaves people confused and angry and serves to make a difficult situation even more messed up.

Fucking off now. 
 
pjw u said it all! 
Pjw 
Yep. 
Uhm 
So if I sent a mail to Charlize Theron asking if she could send me some nude pictures and I didn't get a reply that would be unacceptable, passive-aggressive horseshit?

Since when is there a "rule" that one has to reply to any emails at all?

And JPL:
And now, damned sons of bitches, go map and stop crying on the past... prepare the future please... ;)
Maybe next time apply your last sentence to your own post.

You guys badmouthing Kell and Necros disgust me. 
You Communicate With Charlize Theron On A Regular Basis? 
Wow, you're cool.

(Don't be dumb.) 
 
It's called communication, and it's something that human beings normally do with one another.

no, it's called assuming i wouldn't post an update with new information if it was available.

in any case, it's clear it was a mistake to try to do this along-side a user map pack.

i enjoyed working on quoth the most when we did the stand-alone version. i felt rushed when we did chapters, and the same thing happened here.
i think the best way to develope these kinds of things (and in hindsight, what should have been done) is to finish it first, independantly, or with a very small amount of people. (ie: like a real dev group)

i've had the opportunity to work in a few varied sized groups now for games related projects, and i've found the most productive are usually the small (2 or 3) ones. the breaking point seems to be about 5 or so, at least in my experience, but maybe i'm just unlucky.

in any case, i don't really care to get into an argument over your post, pjw, since i've already admitted that i'm not PR and don't work like that. 
 
i now i started the argue! i think is time to close this!!!

please some admin.

close this Threath
before people shoot eath other... maps that are in make can be remake use stand alone!!! 
Alright! That Means I Won My Bet!! 
My prize: Nothing and failure. 
 
And now, damned sons of bitches, go map and stop crying on the past... prepare the future please... ;)
Maybe next time apply your last sentence to your own post.


What did you think I do since SRC relase ? 
 
Spirit shut the fuck up please! 
Kell And Necros 
owe you nothing.

Stop harassing them, ok?
It looks so selfish and inconsiderate.

I can understand that you feel bad but this is the world of hobbyism volunteer work, people often don't have time or spare effort to even respond to e-mail (I know I often haven't). That's just the way it goes. You should accept that when you start a project, even if there are no warning labels and stickers and huge licence agreements you have to agree to.

Also it doesn't look good if you tell some people to fuck off completely and then again are ok with them after a short while. Some people are not such hot heads and actually think that when someone offends them, he means something, and they feel bad and feel less like working with you anymore.

This whole stuff is not the worst thing in the world and should not be blown out of proportion either, just wanted to tell how it looks from an impartial observer's side. 
Bambuz 
I totally agree with you on voluntarism and hobbyism.... However, it does not prevent people to communicate gently on their progress when they are more or less involved in such a pack...

As I said, even an single answer saying "guys, don't rely on us" would have been helpful.. Was it too much for them?

Anyway, let Quoth2 team work... it is the better thing to do..

And Trinca, calm down please :P There's no reason to put oil on the fire... it is too late... 
For Fucks Sake 
Give it a rest. As I understand it the base pack (the name of this thread, remember?) is gone, finished. Trinca released his solo and so did JPL.

Further maps under this name will just be Quoth2 maps, not a pack.

So why ressurect this argument? What are you hoping to achieve here?


Now I'm guilty (again) of keeping this thread alive. 
My Intention.. 
... asking about any Quoth2 news was not to restart a flaming session. I was just curious about the current development status...

I know some people are for sure working hard to polish, finalize and to make something of top high quality, and the idea was not to put pressure at all.

If somebody understood that, I regret it a lot, it was not the ultimate goal. 
Thanks For The Input Guys 
Maybe this thread should be locked and a new quoth2 thread started as this is so full of pain, hurt and gnashing of teeth! 
Trinca 
I won't command your map, as long as you don't others

I started my basepack startmap, stayed in tune with my base participants, tried to understand the rules, added some positive recall,

and released my map aside, saw everyone happily ever quoting, didn't understand the fuzz it was evoluating.

But it didn't harm my map enthousiasme in anyway.

For some years I had the abandon pak. I wanted to release it and decided to ask peope on this board how they liked it.
In that time I didn't realize this board is about quality mapping, while I intended to illustrate the evoluaition of a mapper. So I ended up in the same mockery of rubbish I now see happening with the base pak.
My only intention was to build something in cooperation with others, not to get the blast of poor mapping abbilties or other delays.
I finnaly released it on my own, which was a real aprehension.

indeed I have the same wrenched intention you must have now...
but least you can�t say we didn�t tried. 
Sorry 
I'm going to pull out because I don't know when I'm going to get a good chance to finish my map. It sure as hell isn't going to be in the next five days. Sorry about that :(

I will probably just release my maps (I have another map near complete that uses the new Quoth progs too) when I am able to finish them sometime next year.

Good luck to everyone else.

p.s. this isn't an excuse to start another pointless flame war. 
Than 
As far as I understood, Quoth2 is progressing well, and it is definitively a good information IMHO ;) 
 
Quoth to me is DEAD...

just this... i only will play new maps becouse i fucking love Quake!!!

and now merry christmas to all

and kell and necros i dont hate you guys :p

please just keep making quake maps becouse you guys rockssssss 
Thanks Than, 
for the inspiration and impetus that kept the project going.

p.s. this isn't an excuse to start another pointless flame war.

I have to admit the last pointless flame war knocked the wind out of my sails for mapping. I kind of started the Zer turtle map project to hammer out a quick map, and get a little traction going again to finish the two maps I'm committed to at the moment.

I'm looking forward to where ever your maps take you and everyone who has the good fortune to play them. 
Quoth 2 Mod 
I think was nearly finished last time preacher sent out an update. It IS in a good state, it's just everyone is busy with other stuff and doesn't have time to map. It's a bit of a shame that we've not been able to finish it after over a year. Maybe the mod should be tidied up and released with Kell's special map (nearly done I think...) and then everyone else can release their quoth 2 compatible maps whenever they are ready to. 
Than 
Exactely what I understood: definitively a very very good news !!! It was painful, but at least it happened...
Now stupid question: is there a remaining mapper for Base Pack ? :P 
Than: 
wait, are you bowing out becuase you're not ready and everyone else is, or because you're ready and nobody else is? Becuase if you're not ready AND nobody else is ready, then it sounds like you can stay in :) 
Hmm 
well, I'm not sure anyone else is ready either. Haven't heard from Biff for AGES, despite him saying he was nearly at beta. There aren't exactly a lot of emails flying around between the rest of us either. I assume nobody is actually ready, but just think maybe it would be best if the actual mod stuff and maybe one or two maps were released and the pack was forgotten about with everyone free to release their maps as they pleased.

Of course, if everyone else is still up for it, then maybe it's a better idea to keep going and try releasing the pack when everyone is ready, or at least most of the maps are done. 
Metlslime 
Without being sarcastic, I think the 3rd option is the good one... :P 
Hmm... 
so if the mod is ready and the maps aren't, why is that a good reason to cancel the pack? The maps may need the mod, but it's not like the mod needs the maps in order to be released. 
Metslime 
... Yes, I fully agree on that point, the mod should be release, and then the pack "revitalized"... if it has ever been alive... though...

I guess Quoth2 owners have thier idea BTW... 
JPL 
1072 posts. That's kind of alive, yeah? 
"aliveness" 
Having 1072 posts doesn't mean Base Pack is alive IMHO... It means some people have some interest to post there... but concerning the pack itself, "aliveness" is not a certainty.
Let's see what will happen after Quoth2... :P 
Still Alive 
Apart from a few sounds we need to scrounge together, all of the quoth pak1 content is done.
All we have to do now is finish writing up the tutorial and last testing. There are currently no bugs left to fix :) We'll probably send a release candidate to what's left of the base pack mappers first, just in case. Then we'll release proper.
Give us a week or two.

In the meantime, here are some screenshots of the next map in the Dimension Of The Doomed remake. It's finished and will be included in the pak1 to follow on from e1m1quoth. I'll post these in the screenshots thread too.

http://kell.leveldesign.org/screenshots/ss-e1m2quoth-rose.jpg
http://kell.leveldesign.org/screenshots/ss-e1m2quoth-ya.jpg
http://kell.leveldesign.org/screenshots/ss-e1m2quoth-sk.jpg
http://kell.leveldesign.org/screenshots/ss-e1m2quoth-beams.jpg

And see also my Q1SP release today, I Pity Thee Not.

That should keep you going for now. 
And Kicking... 
Great work, Kell!
Good to hear something from the front!

I still have this far concern about the BaseStart.map
As it is a map without warnings and leaks, and offers start parts to four participants I still feel it is a good thing.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/base.jpg

So if there is hope, there is life!
Here's the bsp, so if anyone has an id or wants to check it out...

http://members.home.nl/gimli/basestart.rar

it's only a beta stage, so you can call me a bas(e)start!
Happy Newyear all! 
 
Those shots are nice! I like the idea of remix'd id originals. 
 
i still got one map with quoth2 but i dont tuch it something like 6 month... but is maby 80% made more 1 month of work... let�s see what happend here... i�m making a Maya map... if the pack still going i will put Maya in standby and finish the quoth2 one. 
Kell 
It is a very good news :D ... and as I'm working on a new Base map project (far to be finished... 50% ready only..) I will use Quoth2 for sure...
I will look forward to Quoth2 release with a lot of interest ;) 
Im Too Lazy To Read... 
Whats the status of this pack? :) 
Hmmm 
To be honest, I'm not even sure who is in charge of the base pack, and I've been doing quoth2 coding for the past 6 months. I'm sure if the pack was ready to go they would have told me though, because quoth2 is done and if any maps/packs were only waiting on it we'd release. As it is, people said they want full documentation available for quoth2 before we put it out, so there's no reason to release before the write-up is complete. 
Preach / DaZ 
AFAIK, Kell is polishing Quoth2 manual, and maybe some map examples, distrans has a map in beta test (still pending due to Quoth2 not deliverd...), and maybe some other people (like me) are waiting patiently for Quoth2 release before using it officially...

Maybe Base Pack will be revitalized after Quoth2 release, and will rebirth from its ashes after that... who knows ?

And actually, there is no official owner of this "project" indeed.... anybody interested ? 
Maybe We Should Start A New Thread? 
Call it, er, what would you call it?

I wasn't even anywhere near a computer other than for the purpose of mixing music 'till about may last year.

I have a weird Base Map which I will probably be able to get sorted fairly soon. Like 1-2 weeks (heh, i guess lots have people have been caught with their trousers down over saying that before)

So why dont we re-co-ordinate something?

Hell, how many emails are still flying around to do with this thing?

Surely we need someone to tally up all of the content and organise the maps into a sequence, then playtest-as-we-go until its ready?

Or something like that?


Or maybe I'm just too impatient to get anything done? 
Dont Matter Weather Its Quoth1, Quoth2 Or Id1 
cause they'll all run under Quoth2 when it comes out, wont they? 
Er, Fuck, #1082/3 Crossed In The Post With #1084 
Still think we should draw a line.

I'm interested.

My maps too weird anyway.

I was thinking of doing something with those base texes which Than made, from Guncotton.

I'll do my map finished, Quoth1, then start a new for Quoth2.

Then I might do a different-realm map. 
Nobody In Charge? 
That kinda explains a lot really... 
OK I Will Take Leadership 
Scrap those files, base maps suck donkey balls. 
 
what is Base Pack? lol a mith? 
Egypt Pack! 
 
Coincidince 
I may be able to finish this project for an Egypt pack. Stop hacking my computer. 
Egypt Is The Fucking Worst Theme For Any Game Ever 
Also when do I get my dues for this bet I won about the base pack never being finished? 
Egypt 
Isn't the fucking worst theme for any game ever.

CZG is, because no matter how big the grid is, it isn't big enough! 
CZG 
You can collect your bet winnings at the heat death of the universe. Though you'll have literally nothing to spend it on.

Base pack eh? 
My 2 Cents 
Base Pack yes.. It is the initial intention of this thread started by Trinca in 2006, so let's preserve the name.

Let's forget the bad past, let's forget the flames, let's forget the crys, and please concentrate on the future: be positive...

I know that Quoth2 will be released soon, as Kell is working hard on the user manual, and some demo map: let him do his job, and wait patiently... this is the best we can do..

Also, I think some mappers already started maps and some of them are also waiting for Quoth2, or at least a rebirth of this thread (e.g: I'm thinking to than, but there are plenty others I hope)

Well, I think any deadline can not be defined now, nevertheless I think we can discuss the rules like:
- Base based map (mandatory)
- SP map (mandatory)
- DM maps (nice to have)
- Quoth2 mod (mandatory)
- Texture set to use (free is best for diversity)
- Minimum number of secrets (3 or more ?)
- Start map (nice to have)
- Ownership / Lead (any volunteer ? I don't want to)
- Participant list (please be serious)
- Map submission deadline
- Web support for map upload (I guess Spirit we be happy to support right ?)

So let's really rebirth the thread, and discuss these simple rules: we will see what will happen...

So, what do you think... Please no spoiler ;) 
Texture Set Should Be Id-Base And Its Derivatives. 
such as hipnotic's stuff, and those ones made by biff and all. Say the Id_base megawad as the texture set. 
Quake2? Dkt1? Etc? 
Im all up for diplomacy. I like IDBase, but I've made 8 maps with IDbase, and its nice to use other texes. Not to say I wouldnt use IDbase.
Colored lighting for those who want it?
Skyboxes?
I think maps should run under stock GlQuake (max 600 edicts, usual limits etc)?
I think that saying Quoth2 mandatory is fair enough, but people shouldnt be penalised for NOT using Quoth/Quoth2 content, as Quoth1 and ID1 will run under Quoth2. I mean for individual maps in the pack. The pack would require Quoth2 run all maps, but some maps might not NEED Quoth2 to run on their own...

Who's gonna be in charge?

Are you in Simulacrum?

If you are, the list reads:

JPL
RickyT23
Simulacrum...

DaZ - start map (it would make a class start map!)

Who else?

Trinca, you have a map waiting?
(NOTE: I will have a new map out imminently, my Base Pack contribution will be from scratch) 
L@@kin 4ward 2 Dis Pak 
...in 2013 
Czg / RickYT23 
czg: Please don't be mean....

RickyT23: BTW, I think we should not be too much restrictive onto the rules. Let people use whatever texture set they want, while it needs obviously to be a base texture at least... Err, I would not see a medieval base map fiting well there... :P
Concerning technical limitation to standard engine, definitely I do not agree, as my current map will certainly exceed some limits...
Skyboxes ? well why not, but you need to use something downloadable easily (Kell skybox set use would be largely enough)

And finally, I'm not yet sure if I will participate to this thread, due to the "charged past" of this thread...

Anyway... let's see what will sort out 
OK - Well How About This Then: 
1. Map must be a base
2. Nothing that wont run under Quoth2
3. ?

Which limits are you over JPL?

Discuss this:

Will the maps run sequentially? If so there is a dilemma if we want to use colored lighting. Darkplaces is the only engine which runs maps over certain limits WITH colored lighting. So how about we say "no colored lighting". Then AguirRe's engine will do... ?

czg: it warms my soul to know that you read this stuff!!

finally: I haven't got the time nor energy to argue over this. Whats the point in wasting time and energy arguing over minor points and shit from the past? What we need people to do if this is going to work is:

1. Make a base map

2. Try and make sure the start/end is good to lead on to the next map, i.e. start AND end with a teleporter is good, but other links would be possible if people COMMUNICATE about it.

3. Dont get involved if you're not serious or else it will never get finished.

How hard can it be?!?!? 
Hah 
czg: Please don't be mean....

Translated as czg, please don't be czg.

Illogical... Illogical... does not compute

*universe explodes* 
Oh Yeah 
So I heard there's a base pack. If it was announced in 2006 then surely it's done by now. GIVE ME MY BASES OR I'LL HAVE YOUR ASSES BITCHES. 
Also 
There are no base maps. There is only VONDUR!!! 
Vondur 
Please comment ;) 
 
release when 2009? :\ this ~will take lots of time and my map is from 2006... so quality is a litle better then wbase but it still sucks, i dont have the will to fix it anymore... only have final room to fix a lot and and some fixes... so maby in more two weeks i have it done.

Base Pack after 2 year? i�m just finishing this map becouse i hate to have maps on hold and since i worked so much on it i�m not going to make like other people that keep then forever in hardcrive... is 200 monsters on hard map is not fucking sexy map but is fun to play oi think!

god bless all




or not



:p 
I Say 
people just release whatever they have after tweaking it for whatever it is for (ie quoth1, regular quake etc).

It doesnt have to be a pack, a steady stream of individual releases will be just as good.

As for quoth2, I'm sure when it comes out, there will be plenty of maps made for it anyway. 
Heh... 
...the voice of reason. Take heed and soon all your bases will belong to us :)








Somebody had to do it...


...again. 
Well 
After all, it can be a pack without start map, without Quoth, without rules, just base based... why not... 
 
i think the work in Quoth2 is been done... so who wants to wait do it who doens�t release!

nitin is right i respect others people time and will! 
Random Comment 
Fuck Base Pack.

I agree with nitin.

Flogging a dead horse won't get any more blood from the stone.

AFAIK everyone who had a map for it already released it either id1 or Quoth1, so why not make a map pack based on a mod that currently exists to save the headaches.

I've even got an idea for a name to go along with all my shit stirring - "Nothing to do With Basepack Pack".

It's wide open - you could even make it base themed! 
 
this is all Zwiffle foult!!!

he sujests Quoth :p

someone kill me that US bastard!!! 
Again 
the only basestart you killed is this one.

Basestartmap:
http://members.home.nl/gimli/StartQuoth.7z

If you don't like it, as JPL said, it leaked..
I couldn't find anything wrong.
I have phantom pholly converted to it,
as some new monsters I would like to add.

Bones. 
It's Trinca's Fault 
Everything he creates fails. Children included. 
 
Since Quoth 2 Came Out 
We might as well just go and release our maps as standalone levels like JPL did. That's what I'm doing anyway. The release of Quoth 2 got me a bit more motivated so I've actually done some mapping today. I'll aim to have it done before the next QExpo... whenever that may be :)

Oh, and what about Biff? Last I heard his map was nearly done, but wtf has happened to it? Biff, tell us! 
I'm Right Here! 
Well, I guess I will release mine as standalone -- need to get some last minute details sorted out first, will prolly run through it thoroughly this weekend. 
Well, Whatever. 
Mine is gonna be Quoth 2 now too! And it's imminent. 
 
i think is better for us all release as standalone i already removed all Quoth2 entities... and i will not put then back for sure...

but i�m glad Kell releaSE the stuff maby one of these days i will ma
ke a Quoth2 map who knows? 
 
i think is better for us all release as standalone i already removed all Quoth2 entities... and i will not put then back for sure...

but i�m glad Kell releaSE the stuff maby one of these days i will ma
ke a Quoth2 map who knows? 
Curious 
Seeing the toppic now quoth2 is released. Some real good ideas were launched, and some real bad reflections were made...

Make a start map, I did...but in time it got lost by other projects.
Make a quoth2 map, I did... & released it before Quoth2 was confirmed. (as jpl did)

Is there a reason for blaming time counceling the project?

so again post #629:
Any more betatesters for the Quoth version?


Am I fool in beleaving a startmap with parts of each participant is a good idea? 
 
wbase was release and fbase is almost complete under id1(took me 1 week to remove all Quoth2 stuff)... so dont wait for me... i�m out! 
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