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New Q1SP: Gravey Trail By Madfox
Rinie 'Madfox' Brouwers makes his Quake mapping debut with Gravey Trail, a single player level that also functions in deathmatch mode. He describes it as a "medieval Castle, inspired by e2m4 Ebon Fortress."

So far the map is only available from fileplanet as a 637k .rar file: http://fpweb1.fileplanet.com/files/110000/119400.shtml

(thanks aguirRe)
It's Nice To See Some New Spq, But...... 
Madfox, did you play this map before you released it?

If the more than obvious errors were fixed, it would probably stand up as a decent way to spend 15 minutes.

Yet i'm not even sure how to find the exit. 
I Understand Your Concern... 
I posted the level with a bug in the startscene.
Some "enforcer" was shooting through the walls.
I was three days "bussy" telling the "folks" at FilePlanet I had an update.
So the file "trail68.bsp" is the wrong one!
Try "trail69.bsp", and tell me again what the obvious errors are.
It could help me improve the level.
And of course, I played the level...
Madfox 
I Get The Feeling You Didn't Beta Test It... 
you should come here (or any board, really...) and ask some dudes to beta test for ya. they'll play it through before you release it and tell you any bugs that crop up during play... 
Review Soon 
when i am can find the time. 
Just A GreenHorn... 
I was trying to submit "crumb", another level.
When I screwed up, to load another one, I had the unluck that it slipped through.

Sure true, I didn't thougouhly tested it, but it's the 17th in line.
I'm still working to get the other 16 in line, good for two episodes of eight.
Don't suspect to much, 'cause I'm only a
greenhorn in leveling, with kno-one to try them out.

But if you like beta testing, I could send some levels.

MadFox 
16 Levels :) 
since you have so many levels you should release them together (e.g. at the same time) as proper episodes, not just release 1 map at a time.

Its more fun for players that way, and more satisfying for everyone i think. :).

You could indeed release them as two episodes of 8 with a overall story/theme/title and make sure the order of the levels is good, with the easier ones first and progressively getting harder (Possibly, doesnt HAVE to be this way). 
Greenhorn... Hehe... 
i just find that term funny.

i can possible beta test some of your stuff, maybe one or two. don't think i'd like to take on 16 though! O_o

necros -at- planetquake dot com (heh, migh as well, eh? :) ) 
The Abandonned 
Allright.
I'm planning to make a kind of convertion, called "the Abandonned". Much later I reckognized, it was the name of the first Deathmatch in Quake1. Didn't know. Same as a level in it, called "Underworld". But this level already excisted by name.

The point, with having so many levels, is that it becomes quit difficult to hold the "tension" in the game.All maps I've made untill now, were made for SinglePlayer.
The fact now is, when putting them after eachother, is that things like the amount of ammunition and health are somewhat "kinky'.
In hard skill there's almost enough health to complete the level, while in easy skill you get drenched with amunition.

Than the fact, that I'm willing to let them "beta-tested", but for so far, you miss the challenge of the complete episode.

"GraveyTrail" has a lot of things in it, that could be done better. The Teleporter, near the func_train is quit useless, since you got the train allready. The wait-function only works the second time, so you fall desperately in the water.

Still don't know what's better. First let them beta-tested, or hold the surprise of the complete episode with chance of major bugs.

I mean, when you're talking of a level, one can be very particular, but for episodes it becomes quit over-all-sized.

Are there still some beta-testers out there?

MadFox 
Review 
my review is posted. 
Stamping Grounds... 
Wauw UnderworldFan, what a great honneur to see such a detailed suscribed picture you made of my level. Hadn't expect to see it back in that dimension.
Cheers for you, and cheers for the good old Quake.
Ya don't need golden staunton pieces to have a fine play.
I'm so surpridsed, I almost don't know what to say, but it's alright.
The things you mentioned were quit fair, but it's part of an episode, so I have a hard one on skill settings, and attribute division.

Greetings, Madfox. 
:) 
"Ya don't need golden staunton pieces to have a fine play."

I like that. :) 
Beta Test, Yess? 
Ok I'll bite, anyone up for running through a CUBE SP episode? (It's big.) Only requirement is you're ready to go, this thing's starting to gather dust on my hard drive already. Oh, and that you can handle a hard map. No super test or anything, just someone to play it and see if anything "sticks out" and that might try something unusual and "break" something. I can't see a thing left to do on it but you never know if your expectations are affecting things. Mail to spentron@draac.com (can't login with this proxy). 
Mirror Man 
reply #7

Here' s one for you, Necros.
Have a bite.., MirrorMan.
Please give me sign, if you received the map by Email.

MadFox 
Beta File 
Well, for anyone who likes to keep the Quake 1 Single Player strong, mirrorman, at the point of skill setting.

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/quatrotski

And thanks to Armino Rigo, for the great Quark Editor!

Greetings,MadFox. 
Re:beta 
problems: either there's nothing there or you don't have premium, in which case you'd have to tell yahoo to allow access to yahoo id "spentron" .... and let me know you did. 
Yahoo Account 
I've changed the status to public sharing.
Try again, if you like.

greetings, MadFox 
Rubbish 
It doesn't work out. Yahoo only gives me the idea of freeweb space, but than comes up with Premium Servers, what means first get promoted.
Seems I'm stuck again with email atached maps.
But never mind.
Came up to my sixth beta testing level, still some to go.And all these new levels fly around.
Now I am bizzy doing to transpose the Orb to Quake1.
I got such strange ideas. The feeling as if The Orb's place is in Quake1, where he accessed The DeathMatch, and so killed The SinglePlayer Star.
But now I've got his .qc haunting me, and I don't know if it will let me go!

Greetings, Madfox 
 
Try tripod and email PlanetQuake or Quakepit for hosting 
Yes 
www.quakepit.com <--- good hosting. I am hosted there. 
UpDate 
Just sended an update, since I couldn't bear it anymore to have the feeling the level was not at wit's end.
trail73.bsp
Strange to send it with WinZip, it's much bigger than WinRar? 1,1Mb to 475kb
Will have a look at that hosting site, but me so much beta-testing I almost get blasted away by the Orgs.
I mean, I am a normal player, who now has to cheque in for an easy end a hard one too.

Greetz, MadFox 
An update? does this mean the map is available for download madfox?

if so, can you post the full URL(link) for the download please? 
Updating 
While I'm betatesting the whole lot, it came to me that I had to update GravyTrail too, so I could do it just rightaway (gmpf...)
I have submitted the file to FilePlanet, but it can be they're a little bussy.
Same for Necros, send MirrorMan two times already, but I think he also is byzzzy.
Will send you the File, UnderworldFan,
can you tell me first if I'm not too creepy.

MadFox. 
Madfox 
can you tell me first if I'm not too creepy.

lol....please explain what you mean? 
Blue Meanies 
I have just posted an update to you by email.
I played meself creepy.

Note:Will send you the file,underworlfan
can you thereafter tell me if the level is not too creepy.

Sorry if my language is a little poor.

MadFox 
Hmm 
I think he means crappy maybe :) 
Great! 
Great to take the time to look to my update...
underworldfan, and to place it on your site. 
your welcome, Madfox. 
Orb's Considderation 
Get rarther trunked by seeing all those new Episodes for Quake1. Seven new ones. My God...

Can't find the time, while being so buzzy with beta testing the ones of my own.
Just ready testing the first four, but now I start enjoying it.Seems as if the challenge gets bigger, by playing at wits end.
And that strange "piece the ressistance" from the Orb, by being unwilling to fit in Quake1.

Greetings, MadFox 
Vising 
And here I am with a map, called "FlyingDutchman".
It has so many animated textures, it has fall-out. Even after extended vising for lots of houres "vis testlevel4"
Anyone knows a more extend vis option?

tried the new arghlite and better vis.exe,
but still like to know.
I there are several vising options, there must be one further than testlevel4. 
 
fall-out - greyflash due to hight r_speeds ? 
Test 
Vising 
fall-out, yes r_speed?

Is planetrunreal a good viser? 
Madfox 
no, planetunreal is not a viser. I was just testing site linkage. Sorry about that.

Ar eyou viewing in software mode, if so then high r-speeds cause greyflash. 
Ancient Mariner 
Nevermind.. send the level to Celephais.net and Bengt had a good look at the map.
Has brought me to a better know-how for this
complex map.
I view the maps with Telejanos.This gives a good solution to maps that tend to fade-out with grey.
Keeping the view length not further than 8x64
helps to get the best vising.
But in this case I ment a medieval boat in a
starsky, and that needs a lot from the Quake-engine. 
Submit 
test 
Good Orb Last Dream 
Finally I achieved, what I was so aiminglesly
hunting to find...
the shapes of an Orb in the "Enfernos" of Quake1.

Never thought I would ever find it! 
Not Half The Whole... 
Fixed the first 11 levels beta-testing, but now
with the Orb in vieuw skills get changed.
Modelling monsters is a totally other "bite"
than construckting maps.
Like to try a new lizard in stead of the dog.

Hey Necros, how is "MirrorMan"? 
Stronger 
Anyone knows how to change the "size of health
and dmg" in the Client.qc
I would like to change the strength of the monsters.
"cheque for gibs self-health 35"
"selfhealth 80" 
Re: Stronger 
each monster's health is controlled in their respective .qc files.

look in the spawn function for self.health = XXX.

the gib checking is checked during dead, also in the respective .qc files.

also, i totally forgot about the map. sorry about that. i just finished playing it through now, and i'll send you an email with my impressions and a demo soon. 
Elephant Talk 
submit error 
Elephant Talks 2 
& while I was testing this Orb in it's unconvienent Q1 setting, it blew up my
CPU.
Waiting for a new one (CPU) so I can collect
its data again.
That stunning info_camera. 
For Anyone Wondering..... 
madfox has transplanted the "orb" model from q3a into quake 1. it looks kind of cool from what i have seen ;)

sorry about the CPU "explosion", madfox. 
k wtf 
Centrifical Energy Radiation 
As the story goes, there had to be a reason for Orb's appearance in Quake1.
So I put it in one of the best levels I made.
It's a kind of particel-execellerater, or how
would you call that CERN thing in Suise.
But it took to much power, fighting all those
Orbs, coming in with excentraffical force...
But wasn't it the same reason the Orgs came in? 
... 
particle acclerator in switzerland. excellent stuff.

but what are "Orgs"? 
 
madfox has transplanted the "orb" model from q3a into quake 1. it looks kind of cool from what i have seen

Do you mean Orbb - the player model? Or something else? 
Kell 
yes i mean orbb the player model.
madfox sent me a screenshot a while ago but i think i have lost it. :/ 
 
Heh, cool :)

"Your female parental unit!" 
Purpose Of The Game... 
On a dark night AM4:00, as I was reading the manual of Quake1, I lost the passage -It's about the slipgate device, an enemy is using it's own to insert death squads into our camps-
Weren't it orgs, or fiends...,
Shambler must be to big..., so it has to use some kind of neutrino's.
This stunning Info_camera has changed a little,
http://www.planetquake.com/images/photo/index.asp?id=422729 
Do Electric Sheep Dream Of Computers? 
But whar are "Humanoids"? 
Finally... 
Right, as the title of this topic remains...
I got 11 levels ready, but played myself so queer, I wondered if there was someone who like to have a try....the skill settings. 
 
Um...are you asking for playtesters? If so, I suppose I'll have a go. 
madfox, check your email. 
Gold From Old 
I chequed the email, and found nothing.
The point is I am jamming with the progs.dat to give "ease" to The Orb, but it's still nuts.

While I'm chequing the next eleven maps, I would be glad if someone crunched the first.
The whole pack of 22 would be 11Mb in *.rar,
but by now I'm only looking for possibly doubts. 
Hmm, 
in the interest of pseudo-science, when madfox releases this SP pak, I wonder if people could create demos of their first run through of his maps? I suppose you can use cheats, as long as it doesn't affect how you navigate through the level (ex: no rjump, noclip etc). Other then that, nothing special need be done. 
I Reckon I Would 
But someone will need to remind me when the pack is released. 
No Problem 
 
Hell Yeah 
I think you learn a lot about your map by watching someone's first run through it. Sometimes I use my brother for that. 
Your Request... 
Thanks or the big ID.
But as I've put new monsters in it that's a thing you won't see in such a first-run trailer.

I'm halve the way now, but it's queer to see all those betatesters get "blocked" before they can even start, as I just can't send them a level before getting backspammed.

Where's the sense of purpose, when you can watch a Q1SpQuest before playing it? 
Nowords... 
in reply to #57
You make me feel "gilt"y 
Oh Sorry. I Think I Got Lost In The Language. 
first off, I don't think having new monsters will be a problem. having something unfamiliar may even help.

Where's the sense of purpose, when you can watch a Q1SpQuest before playing it?

I meant that people would first play the map while recording it. Only afterwards would we take a look at the demos.

This isn't going to be a trailer, but rather I'm somewhat curious to see what goes on when someone plays a map for the first time. What are the kinds of things they notice, or don't, and how they navigate around, etc. 
Universall Crunching: Awh 
Right,language has it's "rarebits"
It is "guilty" anyway.
I've tried to let people betatesting, but for so far as I ain't got a URL or Homepage, it is a little difficult to get the levels over the net.

Played myself "queer" on the first pack of levels, and now heading for the other bunch.
Still like your ID, but you didn't mention a demo version can have a bigger size on bite-rate than the original level.bsp has?

So I just keep in dwelling in my "Orb-converter" untill all is "tight&save"
Greetz. 
Madfox 
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter 
Cool 
 
Dwarfish 
A Leporello to Morpheus TinkerToys...

http://members.home.nl/gimli/gimli06.htm 
\o/ 
good work, Madfox!

look at all those Q1SP maps!

Its a thing of beauty, it really is. 
Story Line? 
LaserBeam 
Is there anyone who knows how to programm a laserbeam in Quake1?
Since it only appears in the Mission Packs,it is hidden in the progs.dat 
MadFox: 
Yea. Laser beams are the same as lightning, the model is just different. The easiest way is to just replace one of the first 2 bolt models (bolt.mdl or bolt2.mdl I think) with a laser beam model and just do the TE_LIGHTNING or TE_LIGHTNING2 call like you see with the lighting gun.


The other way makes use of Quake version 1.08's special TE_BEAM. If you can find out what number to give TE_BEAM in defs.qc, you can change the Writebyte(TE_LIGHTNING); or whatever to TE_BEAM and make a beam.mdl that's a laser. This way, you don't override one of the other lightning's. I just don't remember what number it is... (if you look at my Jeht or BestVoid mod source, you will find it: http://static.condemned.com/download.shtml ).

I appologize, I can't check it myself just now. These library comps block all useful sites, and won't open zip files. :( I'll look it up when I can though. 
BTW 
If you need help, e-mail me at static_void *at* hotmail *dot* com and I'll gladly assist you. 
Scripting 
Found the scripts for the laser beam.
But then I wonder: where in the Progs.qc do I place them?

Finally round with testing my last three levels.
Still one overall vieuw from my side, and I can relaese all 22.
If my progs.dat won't blow it all!

Greetings, & Quake1 4 ever! 
Vis Crunch.... 
Hope you don't get tired of my "weeping willow", but the last map I made don't want to vis. At least not in 16houres vising on my Atlon, and still it got a *.prt file.
Strange, as the map isn't so big or odd as the other ones, with the same count on mergefaces,and they come up in some 20 minutes.

Should I go on vising for a longer period? 
First Of All, 
are you using avis program with a counter? either aGuire's new one or Tyrann's would do... 
Um... 
i meant to say this, but i forgot...

if it's nearing the end (>= 80%) then you might as well give it one more day... 
And It's Not Mergefaces 
that you should check for, it's visleafs and visportals. Furthermore, it's not even the sheer amount of them, it's their relationship.

In the end it's how many faces in the map that are visible to each other; the more the worse. 
-fish(vis)- In The Sea Of Eternity 
I just use the old vis-programs, because the new ones left me with an error either much before this one would do. So I can't see at what moment the vising proces occurs to be.

The only things I can relate, is the bsp-construction, which tends to...

---mergeall---
6217 mergeaces
and
testlevel=4
1918 portalleafs
5896 numportals

I think it rather strange, because I had maps,
which even had a greater account, and were much faster partionned. 
Those Numbers 
are not so high but as I said, it's the relationship beween them that matters. 16+ hours on an Athlon (1 GHz?) system seems a bit much, though.

If you wish, you could send me the zipped map+wad files (no bsps please, I'll rebuild it myself) and I'll take a look at it. 
Thunk 
Thanks for your attention.
My computer holds Athlon 1300Mhz.
I changed some things in it, but it still won't work within this time limit.
Maybe it has to do with some trees I tried in it.

Great for your offer, but where do I send them?
Could be you don't want to publish your emailadress. 
Trees, Eh? 
well, they'd certainly make more trouble... all the sticky outy bits are hard on vis. he's very sensitive to trees. 
MadFox, Look In The People Section 
of the forum, you'll find my email address there. Just de-obfuscate it first ... 
Ob Fuse What? 
Found your Homepage, but my Broken English can't make an obfuscate-able sense with it.

I must sureley make a stupid impression... 
Just Take My 
email address in the People section (never mind my site now) and replace the " -at- " part with a "@" and the " -dot- " part with a "." and you're done. Think about how email addresses normally look like and I think you'll get the picture.

This is a common practice to prevent Internet robots/spiders from harvesting email addresses from web pages.

Obfuscate means to confuse or make obscure/difficult to understand. I seem to have succeeded somewhat ... 
MadFox, Check Your Email ... 
.. 
Right 
you did. It is more that my internet know-how is rather small. 
End Level 
I am constructing a startmap for two sequences. After then, so only 2 sigils, I would like to let appear a door in it.This door should not be vissible before the two sequels are played.
Has it something to do with the func_bossgate, and if so, does it work like a door or a train? 
Not Quite 
The brush entity used is func_episodegate, which only appears when the player has the specified runes in his possession.

This entity either appears at map start, or not. It doesn't move and cannot be triggered inside the level.

Because of this, I'd recommend rethinking your design. Try making the func_episodegate a bridge across an uncrossable obstacle (e.g. wide pit,) or maybe a flight of stairs up to the door.

Basically, the player will be able to see the door, but won't be able to reach it unless he's played both sequels. 
But Somehow 
I used allready func_episodegate to seal off the corridors which lead to the sequences.
What I mean is the thing like in Quake1, when you finished the four episodes.
Then there is suddenly a big gap, with a round stairway downstairs.
I wondered which polyhedron suddenly dissapears
when finishing the four marvellous adventures. 
Left Me Runed 
func_bossgate indeed.., thanks Shambler. 
Err... 
If you're only using two sigils, then you're gonna have trouble triggering func_bossgate. Use fatty's suggestion, and as you can name more than one brush with the same name you should be able to construct a two part bridge that forms peicemeal as you finish each of the episodes. Remember to leave a gap in the middle though, such that l33t bunny-hoppers can't cross the divide with only one of the spans up. GJs and RJs shouldn't be a problem as arriving at player start two automatically strips the player back to scratch.

God I hope that made sense, it's benn a long day. 
... 
As the Runes are a "Carve of Holy Coincidence",
it is better to use them wisely. They are not captured for a low fee.
It is easier to use the func_episodegate, when only two Runes are set.

But going on this dreathfull path of Quake tracing, it now gives me the strength to split
all the levels up to four sequences.
I know it must sound medieval, but if the Genius gives me Strength, it will help me accomplish this bewildert Task of the Lonley Soul, who creates a new Mission Pack for this tremendous Game.

And maybe then, after consider the Ancient Runes, will let me use the func_bossgate in the right way. 
Well, You Could Quietly Give The Two Other Runes 
to the player on a map while he doesn't notice... 
Unencripted Signs... 
Necros, you should know that it was MirrorMan you were authorizing, not quietly bring out your own excellent maps!

But if you really want to know...
I got a bad-ass feeling that giving the Runes in an other way than by maps, it riddicules the account in-game, just like it did with the original Play!

And Saruman would grin at me, just like I know he would, to all that game-over players in Quake1, trying to reach the func_bossgate! 
Sleeping Zombie 
Is it possible to collaps a zombie.mdl?
So when creating a tomb it lies on the ground in stead of standing?

I've been trying, but it seems one has to rebuild the model, which of course is a lot of work. 
Madfox 
Been there, done that. i recall reading a site more than a year ago that talked about some "un-documented" flags for entities (specificly monsters and weapons) try adding an "angles (note the s at the end) to the crucified zombie (in the format of x y z) to get him to lay down.

Anyone here remember who linked that info? I wanted to say fat controller but I just looked at his site and got nothing. 
BTW 
you should probably post these questions in the mapping help section as I came across your post by accident 
Quaketree 
Fat Controller is indeed correct; you must have been looking in the wrong drop-down :P
http://www.planetquake.com/fatty/default.asp?opinion=johnpayson

Starting zombies prostrate is not possible without QC/blah. The only way to do it is to have the zombies waiting on silent func_doors, concealed beneath a func_illusionary in the form of a fresh grave or whatever and anoter func_door moving sideways like a hatch. See: e1m3 or e4m3 or Zerstorer.

And yes, Madfox: it's probably better if you stop posting in this thread and use Mapping Help instead
kthxbye 
Hmm 
on second thoughts, yeah the 'angles' thing might w3rk; can't say i've ever tried it...and I ain't gonna now. 
No! 
there is a way!

but it's convluted!
it involves hijacking the func_illusion function. you must make the func_illusionary into a point entity and set the frame # and model name. the below example would make a dead player with the face down. (frame #60)

classname "func_illusionary"
frame "60"
model "progs/player.mdl"


you need to open the zombie.qc and find out it's dead frame and simply put those into the entity. 
This 
qc file:
HTTP://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pc/games/idgames2/quakec/monsters/4zombies.zip
let the zombies start laying down and rise when the player get near. 
Hmm 
I Guess It Should! 
8-) 
Have A Try 
Enough small talk. Seems when someone starts about beta-testing, it gets so crowded, you'll
end up alone.
So I decided to post the start-level.
It has nothing to do with nowadays big architecture levelling. It was the first level I made with Qmap in 1997.
Tell me what you think.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/beta.rar 
Old Faint 
Donnuh what it is. I got the right adress. Or doesn't fit the rar.extention

ftp://gimli@members.home.nl/gimli/beta.rar 
Really The Wrong Place To Post 
 
Wrong? 
I have opened this toppic, and you tell me it is the wrong place to post it???
http://members.home.nl/gimli/beta.bsp 
No Download 
Seems only pictures can be downloaded.
How do I post a bsp? Don't tell me I have to pass PlanetFile first. 
Really The Wrong Post To Place 
It was just an answer, Starbuck
Did not have any pretention with it.
I never post the same answer in two toppics.
One can get irrelyable, reading the next answer. 
Don't Talk...Play 
My Apologies 
i mistook this for the thread for gmsp3 (in which case it would have been a bit harsh taking the attention away from his map :)) 
MadFox 
Error in packed beta.rar.

i.e. it won't open... 
Trial&Error 
Looks as if the Squad Gloom doesn't like messin with rar.

Try again:
http://members.home.nl/gimli/bonus.bsp 
Out Of Curiosity, 
what is wrong with the completly acceptable and widely used .zip format? 
Out Of InternetSpace 
Thought you would like to play the level.
But knowing Necros as a good beta-tester (mirrorman), I'll explain.

I have only 4Mb Internetspace in my possession.
Winzip is a good archiver, but zipping a BSP of 1.4Mb will lead to a BSP.zip file of 1.4Mb
Winrar makes it to a BSP.rar of 582byte.
That is the difference.
But sure. Winrar is a commercial zipping program, and Winzip is free.

I found the corrupted file.
I have replaced it for a good one.
So the ones above are gone.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/Beta.rar 
... 
Alright, once and for all.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/bonus.bsp 
Um... 
are you sure your actually compressing the file in the zip archive instead of just storing it? because winzip has different levels of compression where one level doesn't actually compress anything at all, just is used for storing lots of files in one big one.
because i zip all my maps, and i've never seen a 1 : 1 zip ratio. 
Zip Vs Rar Vs Ace 
All I can say is if you use WinRar or WinAce you are most likely going to lose some people playing/showing interest in your map.

That being said, I can understand your concern about space and bandwidth but,in my experience, a 1 to 1 ratio only happens with images . (nothing to compress as it were) but a bsp is mostly "text" (for a lack of a better way of putting it).

I just looked at gmsp3 and it is 5,616,200 unzipped and 2,316,496 when zipped (59% compression). I also un zipped it and re-zipped it just to see what Glassman did and he did it at maximum compression (slowest). It took me about 5 seconds to re-compress btw so slow is relative. 
Ratio 
Thanx for the good advice.

Anyone played the map actually? 
Yes. 
if you want my honest to god expert advice-no mallice intended-0% sarcasm: do not release this map.

i'm dead serious here. you've got to work on the brushwork a lot. quake is not cramped mazelike passages with 0 attention to detail. play through the quake episodes again and some of the custom maps released to get a feel for it.

12:19
0/0
77/129 (which begs the question, where the fuck are the rest of the monsters? mind you, there were quite a few fish.) 
Fingertapping... 
As I mentioned in post #102, this map was the first one I made. I had no pretention with it.
If you say I should not release it, then you can forget the whole convertion.
It was my own idea to let it be this way, because it was just the way it proceeded.

Alright. I could make some changes, but I showed it here, because I thought I could get some good advice.
That doesn't mean I won't hear of any critism, but then again, where is your command on the "MirrorMan" map I send you?

Sure I believe there's a lot of work to be done, but I have not seen anyone trying to make an episode of 24.

And I get quiet amazed of all that straight-to-the-top levelling I see nowadays. But that are all stand-alone's. Never gave me the continuous flow Quake1 offered me.(And will not be seen again, even not for the fool I am.)

After all...I do it just for Fun!
But thanks for the command, and I do mean that! 
Ease Up There Madfox... 
All Necros was saying is that it's not up to the current (2003) standards. Now while I have not seen the level yet, I'm willing to bet that it most likely is up to 1997 (or so) standards. That's probably when a lot of these guy's started mapping themselves.

And Necros, lighten up, if your "first" beta got hammered by someone who was "experienced" after you had put a lot of work into it, wouldn't you be a bit testy?

How about putting in some constructive critisism(sp). Point out to him WHY the brushwork needs some work not just to look at what somebody else did. There's a lot to look at in any level. Some done right and some done wrong (including the original Quake levels I might add).

And before you start to flame, I've played around with WC 1.6 quite a bit, I never released anything because I don't feel the need to subject myself to the attitude you expressed above. 
And Madfox... 
If you could e-mail me the item in question (in a non-rar form) I would be happy to look at it and give you constructive critisism.

tedsam1963 (at) Yahoo (dot) com 
Free To Cripple-ware 
Thanks Quaketree.

I knew there would be an argue on the point of
imperfect mapping. But that was just my point of state. The diary of a mapper.
The whole convertion is almost done, so you can
bite yourself on that kind of queer-talk.
But I can use some hard critism, after constructing so long. Two know more than one.

I can only say I had a lot of Fun with it.
I had to thank Armino Rigo instead for his free
editor.
Ever bought a commercial editor "Thread"? That costs money! And my maps are freeware. Thanked be the good folks at Quake for such a good game!

Post #114 delivers an unzipped BSP, so you're welcome. 
And Necros, lighten up, if your "first" beta got hammered by someone who was "experienced" after you had put a lot of work into it, wouldn't you be a bit testy?

How about putting in some constructive critisism(sp). Point out to him WHY the brushwork needs some work not just to look at what somebody else did. There's a lot to look at in any level. Some done right and some done wrong (including the original Quake levels I might add).

QuakeTree, shut up. he wanted my honest opinion, so i gave it to him. i really don't think the map should be released. there are so many things wrong with it, that i don't even think underworldfan (in his infinite generosity ;)) would be able to justify reviewing it with a decent mark.

and I did give constructive criticism.
you've got to work on the brushwork a lot. quake is not cramped mazelike passages with 0 attention to detail. play through the quake episodes again and some of the custom maps released to get a feel for it.

i told him that he needs more detail and to look at how the original quake mappers did it.

MadFox, if you want me to elaborate:

brushwork:
do not make a map purely out of boxes, stretched boxes and other similar primitives.
Use the grid
Don't make protruding small brushes which impede progress
Don't make areas which require trick jumping to get to unless they are secrets.
the map should have a general flow, not just blindly stumbling through different areas wondering what to do next.
Details! there are no details whatsoever! trying varying textures in long corridors more. try adding some curves, or something. try adding trim to where floor textures change
DO NOT have the waterlevel of a water brush equal to a solid brush. it looks really stupid in game.
Do not make door which open into a solid brush on the same plane. what results in bad z-fighting (where two polygons compete for the same space), aka flickering walls

lighting:
unsourced lighting sucks. by unsourced, i mean light which seems to emenate from thin air. it's bland, and leads
there were a few instances of shadows which was nice.
don't make everything so bright. darker areas (obviously, not pitch black) are a welcome change.
the quake symbol shadow was neat.

gameplay:
Jesus christ! playing the whole map with only the shotgun is retarded! with 77+ monsters, i got really pissed off killing vores with a god damn shotgun! (at least there was plenty of ammo, i never ran out).
i never even used the gold key, i think. somehow i beat the map without it.
i had no idea where i was supposed to go. the majority of my time was spent wondering around backtracking trying to figure out where to go next.
at least there were no spawns
at least there were no shamblers (with only the shotgun, that would have been ridiculous)
don't put fiends in small enclosed spaces. it completly negates their jumping attacks and makes them stupidly slow and easy to kill.
don't put vores where they can't get easy los on the player. again, it negates their longrange tracking attack making them useless.
FISH GET BORING TO FIGHT AFTER THE 20th ONE!

misc/textures
The new door texture, besides being a tech one (which was just a recoloring of the normal base door) sticks out like a sore thumb in the medieval theme. besides the fact that the texture just plain sucks and doesn't fit with quake's palette at all.
trim would really help as well.

maybe that information will be useful to you, maybe not. maybe you'll just hate me and never talk to me again and never play my maps/say my maps suck from now on. maybe you'll go into self imposed exile. and maybe, you'll take what i said at face value, screw up your ego and go map. 
Madfox 
What editor do you use? Does it have grid snap?

#1 most important thing in this case would be to use it, and do all the bulk of your main architecture with the grid set to 32 units. Most of your corridors should be at least 128 units wide/tall (4x32). Think of the player movement.

Then start gradually taking into account what necros said. You're wasting any talent you might have by overlooking simple things like this. 
Mad Fox 
well, lets put it the other way

The goal of game level designer is to create an interesting map. And that requires both - the playabilty and the looks.

Your map absolutely fails in the second department. It could not keep me interested for more than couple of minutes (thus I cant say much about the gameplay) and I dont see anyone willing to play the entire episode of such nubish dull maps.

Please dont go defensive here. You have to understand that if you want people to play and enjoy your maps, you need to make them visually appealing and interesting (even badly made but imaginative and original map can be interesting).

You have to learn. 
MadFox 
If it's any consolation, everybody's first map sucks. I've never seen necros' first map, but dollars to donuts it sucked. Same goes for xen, Speedy and myself. 
Yep 
remember beta.bsp is madfox's first ever map.

"dollar to donuts"....nice american phrase. :) 
Necros 
"QuakeTree, shut up."

Well I was expecting that but it DID get you to be more specific rather than the generalized:

"you've got to work on the brushwork a lot. quake is not cramped mazelike passages with 0 attention to detail. play through the quake episodes again and some of the custom maps released to get a feel for it."

Comment. Don't forget that at the time I wrote the post I stated that I "Had Not" seen the level as I was under the impression that it was in a .rar format, and I have no desire to clutter up my system with several pieces of different decompressing software.

And mega kudo's to you for explaining the problems you had with the level, in detail.

I've noticed a distinct lack of easily locatable information in general Quake editing information on the internet of late. (Yes I know that there are many such sites for other games that cover much of what you described above. But for someone who is new to it, they probably don't realize how much of it "can" pertain to Quake (Brushwork, Texturing, Details ect...).

If you want to help fix this shortcoming, I have an idea, start collecting various information from whats left on the internet (and what you know) and compile it into a package that is easy to use off-line. If you want to colaborate with me on this I would be more than happy to do so. Then you (and evreyone else) can point to a file and say RTFM.

And MadFox, After looking though the .bsp above, all of what Necros said is 100% correct. Don't look at it as a slap in the face but more as a lesson learned, and just use it to better your skills and the "art" of making a level. 
Stuff 
this might be somewhat interesting for the noob mapper/madfox:
http://xen.quakepit.com/tut1.htm 
More Good Advice... 
Well, that really did make me feel good.
More like a child, who's is asked to get out of the way with his scooter-pet after he has passed for his drivers-license.

You have a point Necros, and I won't feel angry with you, but this dude is still waiting to hear from you about the level "MirrorMan" he sended you. Now I got the feeling you pinpoint all your argues on a map that was made in the times there were no editors. I wonder how many of you ever have bought one.
And if you have ever worked with an editor like Thread, which easilly puts two brushes on eachother, maybe you would talk otherwise.
Have you ever transposed 600x6 brushnames to make them fit in Qmap? Ever worked with the first version of Qmap or BSP256?

But that is no excuse.
We were talking about the 2003 standards of Quake1 gaming, so what the hell?
Allright, you didn't meet the Shambler, you played only Normal skill.
The count of monsters was wrong? Can't help it, the console told me so, blame the quake engine, not me. That you only had one shotgun is because you are in the first level.
It seemed to me people are so fixated in construckting one level, they almost forget, the game was a sequel of maps!
Sorry, but let us qualify a minute of ten Quake, and start reconciling, Indeed Jesus!

Not so long ago I read a revieuw of someone, who was complaining he had to fight with the axe, because there was not enough ammu.
So he though the level was bad. Make sense, why did they put the axe in it afterall?

Right for the statement of texturing, but I get the feeling you don't like the orb, because it has not cut its nails in a decent way. But if you levellords mutual are so devided, than I guess I still can learn something.

You are certainly right Speedy. This map is not perfect, in fact it is quiet a creep. But why hasn't there been anyone who said anything about "GraveyTrail"? I get the feeling that when UndergroundFan had not released it, it still had been unknown. The only thing I hear is that people cannot wait for ten minutes to download it. Than it certainly won't be worth the joy of five minutes playing!

Than the good request for mapping. In the time the site of Qmap still excisted, there was some kind of simmilar opinion.
Don't put too many monsters in your level, other people must be glad to play it, not get wrenched up in a masacre. But this site does not excist anymore. Same for the people who try to make a sequel, and if they were still there, they suddenly have to satisfy the standars of nowadays mapping. It makes me a little concearned. I guess you never have waited 48 houres to collect your failures and start again.

Still I am gratefull for your attention and answers, I will rejudge my statement of making a sequel, or get lost in the standards of profesional mapping of the Quake Team and the ancient times of the stomping grounds. 
Mirror Man 
i'm posting the feedback to this map here because i've emailed you about it but obviously, you didn't get the mail.

download this file:
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/ne_kwarq05_demos.dz

i enjoyed this map. it's better pretty much all around. better lighting (sourced now, with good contrast in places). better gameplay (clearer route, although still got confused a couple of times). more consistent texturing. better brushwork.

still is a boxy looking map though... the fancy bar work does do a bit to alleviate this, but some of the areas (the underground area comes to mind) are very boxy... little more than a six sided room --which is bad.

thanks for the weapons this time! it was really nice to be able to use different guns.
--
even though bonus.bsp is supposed to be the first map, it's no excuse for putting vores in there with only the shotgun (and a shambler, apparently). either remove the vores, or put in more weapons because not everybody plays with god mode on.
--

there were some strange artifacts... you mentioned you used quark? make sure you are using one of the txqbsp tools, because it is the only one which supports floating point coordinates. quark uses floating point, so if you don't use txqbsp, you'll get seems and cracks after compiling (there were quite a few instances of this in mirrorman. i tried to point them out while playing)

also so strange texturing choices... in general, don't have light textures tile... it just looks wierd. also, align the textures!

-----
on the ax:
while forcing the player to use the ax can be an effective gimick, it will only last for so long. using the ax is a tiring and monotonous ordeal.
in general, try to stay away from the ax as much as possible.

on weapons:
all maps should provide the player with AT LEAST one other weapon to use. this is not because the map is too hard to beat without this weapon, but because the player will soon tire of using the same weapon to kill a large amount of monsters.
example: in bonus, i was able to complete the level without dying with only the shotgun, however i was bored unto hell of it.
example2: observe e1m1. although it's a very small level with only two dozen or so monsters, there are two weapons (not including the ones you start with): the doublebarrel shotgun and the nailgun.
Keep in mind, the supershotgun is a secret and the nailgun is out of the way.
however, they add variety to the killing.


on map length:
in general, level length (ie: how long you take to complete a given map) should be directly related to how much variation there is in the gameplay.
Bring yourself back to e1m1. since there is so little variation (ie: few different monster types, few different weapons) the map is short.
now think of nesp09 (i'll take an example from one of my own maps this time. ;))
the map is long because there is much variation.
also keep in mind that the map would not have been good were it not for the extra monsters. it would have been too long. the added leniancy granted by the addition of the custom monsters let me prolong the map more than what would have made sense. (ie: as opposed to mowing down 20 shamblers, you mow down 8 shambler, 4 fireshamblers, 6 weak shamblers and a smattering of chthons).
so perhaps, bonus.bsp should not be as long. if it were shorter, it would be possible to preserve the current weapon set up. it would, however, still be necessary to remove the higher powered monsters unless there were special circumstances which were in favour of the player (quad damages, pents, RA)

i'm sure some of what i said is arguable, but this is what i've come to think after 6 years of playing quake. 
Stepping In ... 
Just to clarify, MadFox seems to be using an older QuArK version (4.07 I think) that generates float maps but he still claims to be using the old qbsp256 which absolutely does not support float values in map files.

With this tool combination, he can map off-grid and then the compiler will do the "grid-snapping" due to the accuracy loss. This will actually produce pretty solid maps (without too much clipping errors) but with big visual brush alignment problems. All non-axial planes will "snap" to the nearest integer adjusted position with interesting results ...

The bad thing is that since the maps apparently are made off-grid, it doesn't help to upgrade to compilers that can read float maps. It actually makes things worse by accurately trying to fit together brushes with tiny gaps or overlaps. This will cause major clipping errors and leaks.

A difficult situation indeed ... 
What About That Conversion Program 
you made a little while back? it was more or less succesful in converting map which were made in quark407 to a map editable in other software.

i only needed to fix a few dozen brushes (as opposed to hundreds or thousands). 
I Don't Think It 
would help much in this case, since it really tries to preserve the individual face direction and position when converting from float to integer coordinates in the map file.

Since the brushes/faces are off-grid the only thing that can help is actually what MadFox is already doing; snap to grid either in the compiler (by using an integer-only compiler) or in pre-compiler stage (e.g. using my ConvMap to convert map file to integer format by cutting off the fractional part).

There's nothing that I know that can automagically repair the brushes to whatever MadFox wanted them to look like. Except of course an extensive manual brush-aligning editor session ... 
Thanks For Your Great Support! 
Although my broken english is rather queer for a foreigner, I have overcome to an understanding point of what you are talking about.

First, sorry necros, email seems to be an "as if" medium. When it gets lost, only the spam-error will surprise you. And indeed thanks again. The last statement gives me knuckles, but it also reminds me of my poor technical insight. I hardly understand, what you mean with tex-clipping and all.
You are right,when you say the maps are box-a-like. In the time I made them (P100-32Mb ram) it was hardly impossible to make the map bigger. I just did not have the knowledge of doing so, and if I did, the programm collapsed.
Same for the reason, if I wanted to make the maps better. The count of brushes already used prohibbit me of doing so. And then I also get the feeling I am betrailing my own good
purpose.(Although you are right, when you are talking about the standards of nowadays mapping). Looks as if I will stay an "Old School" mapper anyway.

Indeed, I use Quark4.07, for its handsome vieuwer. I couldn't handle the one in the later versions.
And I am claiming nothing, argue, I just wanted to explain, how hard compiling was in old days. There are maps in this sequel I builded two or three times all over again, because after houres compiling, I received the message "Unexpected error occured" and I was left with a compiled BSP, but no map of it.

I use bsp256, because it has a manner to seak for leaks, and it can force brushes which are outlined, back into the grid again.
But at the same moment, it turns all entities into functions, so the whole map has to be redrawn again.

Thanks for the hint for texbsp. I surely will use that one in the future, as for the better
compiler.
I devided the two packs of eleven back into four packs of six. So I have to change the ammunition setting, and the monster-count as well.And I am feeling somehow sorry, to do this work on my own.

But great to have this assistence and responds! 
Woohoo 
this might be somewhat interesting for the noob mapper/madfox:
http://xen.quakepit.com/tut1.htm


Cheers ray, I'd forgotten all about that page :-)

Do you have any opinions on that article, madfox? I'd be interested to hear the views of a newer mapper.

(It's not totally accurate, I zoomed through the lighting section a bit and the reasoning behind detail sometimes contradicts itself, but no matter.) 
Pillar Box 
Necros, you zipped me away with your file.dz
Me so decent to send you the level by email,
and now I can go scratching on a side, to evaluate your zipping command.Did not work.
Who was argueing about compression programms?

I've seen the articel, xen. At least it looks
much about the legandary QMAP-site.
Wonderfull to get noob after all this time...
Xen, try GraveyTrail. 
... 
.dz is Dzip format, specifically for demo files. they compress about twice as much (the .zip file size was 2mb, whilst the .dz file is about 800k)

here's the file in .zip (2mb):
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/temp/krq5demos.zip 
... 
sorry about that. i often forget not everyone has dzip. :) 
Although... 
...perhaps everybody should have it.

Madfox, get dzip here...

http://planetquake.com/sda/dzip 
Wanderer 
I found some data-storing on Lycos.
I released the first six maps of Abandoned,
so if you have some time, you could try them.
I named them dummy.rar
Read the text, take only the leftback path in the Chapel!

http://members.lycos.nl/portable/dummy.rar

Lots of fun Christmass, and give me some support. 
... 
Ah ...bad luck again 
Wanderer 
It seems the data gets blocked.
Once the http//members.lycos.nl/portable
appears it gives a delay.
If you type dummy.rar behind it, it starts downloading.

Can somebody cheque this? 
I Didn't Have Any 
problems downloading this, in fact it was a fast and solid link.

I haven't played anything yet, but I already have some suggestions. Please consider using the standard zip format instead of rar. I have absolutely no problems with it, but others might. The size difference is typically very small.

Also consider change the name of the pack/directory to something else than "dummy", "temp" etc. Use the real name "The Abandoned" (or a short version thereof). Otherwise some people might not take your work seriously. 
I Did. 
I clicked on the link and was redirected to ......nl/portable so I added /dummy.rar to the end of the URL and it started downloading. (note: case sensitive!) 
More Suggestions 
Don't put your personal config.cfg file inside the pak.

And if you absolutely must release a beta start map that is a maze of twisty corridors (all different ...) with most teleporters not working, then at least offer a correct hint to the only working one.

Which is in the back right corridor from the start position. 
Heh 
I exited the first level (skill 0) with 30/103 kills. I killed everything I found and wandered around lost for quite a while. I would guess it's possible to cut off large sections of the map. ;-)

I'll post something more constructive once I've played a bit more. 
Start Map 
It's far too big and complex. A start map should get straight to the point: Selecting a skill level (which you did well), and then selecting a map to play (which you have messed up.)

For the final release, simplify your layout. Also, those two corridors with the sourceless, very bright lights look ridiculous.

On the positive side, some of your corridors, particularly the ones with the demon-head decorations, look very good. They actually achieve id level standard. Try extending that style and level of detail throughout the start map. 
Well.....uh 
First let me explain it is a wonder you could download the file, my intentions were just to show something, what has lingered for so long in this toppic.
Glad, because now there is a possbillity to talk about the subject.
I had put a readme.txt with it, but maybe you didn't read it. As for the extention.
I tried several times to upload a zip file, but it seems only the rar pack came through(?)

I admit, the startmap is somehow twisty and strange. As for the fact only one teleporter works to a sequence.
But as I got so queer of betatesting, I wondered how other people would relate to it.
And as Morfans says: the first map gives 30/130
kills. I don't know what causes this lack of 90
monsters.

For now I am just glad I got this part of the pack on the internet.
Probably full of small errors, but close to the target I was construckting too.

The exit to OnePair gave me a Alloc_hunc error, so I had to change it for a smaller map.

Please, give me more advice. I will be glad to change things, but I got so drenched in the beta testing, I have a hard one on keeping an
objective perception. 
Greenhorn Chicken Hopper 
On Zevon's last record, there's a line in "Rub Me Raw" that's "... to all you greenhorn chicken hoppers, find yourself a trade, or go back to the chatrooms and fade in the shade."
Just FYI 
Didn't You Like The Music...? 
raw deal

exploding plastics 
Betatesters? 
refferring to post #141 I only see names, who seem to want beta-testing....

then this crazy dude wants my radio station favorite.....(?!)

Come on, there. Give me sense of purpose.
Or should I join Shambler, and admit Quake1 is dead? 
Ohh. You Mean Beta-testing 
I'll do it if you like. Upload to alanr643@msn.com. You should probably write up a questionaire of the aspects you are testing for as well. 
Oh, You Mean That Rar File 
If you zip it up and send it, I'll do it -- but I don't use the rar format. I have an archive interperter I found on ZDnet but I hate its interface too much to bother reinstalling it. 
Headthump 
WinRar? 
Phait 
I've took it off my system a some time ago, but that sounds right. 
I Wasn't Sure 
if I still had the executable archived or not, but apparently the answer is not since I can't find it. So for accuracy sake #154 should read 'I use to have'. 
What's Up? 
If you knew how many time I spend making & sending this pack to the internet, you wouldn't
wonder if your compression programm is outdated.

Zip files were rejected on the ftp, that's why I couldn't use them. So I used winrar.

Looks we are talking about beta testing compression files here. 
I Meant... 
I can send them by email, HeadThump
as I actually did to Scampie and Necros. 
I Found The Thread 
:) The interconnection in the map is fun as hell -- though the first time I played it last Sunday, I got really lost because I did not see how the outpost window in one portion connected to a higher area. 
The Quad Damage 
by the func_train is wasted in that position unless you throw in a few fights while riding it to heft that sucker into high gear.

Personally I like the tight corridors, though they need some design variation; I'd suggest studying the Quake2 corridors, it should give you an idea how tightly spaced areas can be made to look more decorative and functional. I like the rooms themselves because most are oddly shaped -- interesting how your rooms tend to butt up against one another at odd angles and levels.

The best thing about the level is how intricate it is; the lay out surprises the hell out of me after the first time I gave it a go and got lost.

BTW -- does the title refer to Leon? If so, he is the real intellectual father of the American Conservative movement -- if you are curious, look up the name James Burnham sometime, and the connections may surprise you. 
HeadThump 
Quit curious.
Since there has been so much time delay, I suppose we are talking about the level Quatrotski. Yes???
If so, I can start re intrepret your answer.
For now I am a little entangled by your answer.

Quatrotski is the name of a dwarf with spectacles, and has no political meaning afterall.

Why do I send Scampie & Necros betalevels, if they can't find the time to even answer? 
I'm A Slow Learner ;-) 
You are quite correct that this is an old school map -- kind of Scourge of Amagon in its visual appeareance, great playing levels whose brushwork was more fuctional than aesthetically appealing compared to Id's original Quake levels.

You can do a few things to make the route a little more identifiable, like the ramped window port I mentioned where you see the base soldiers and a button. I would sugest lowering part of the upper platform so the player notices its purpose right off.

I didn't notice it in the editor when I pulled the map up to inspect, but then again I was looking for brush related errors. It may be just me that I didn't see it before playing it a second time so if those guys could weigh in . . .

I can't speak for them, but I had a tight schedule last week. You saw me sniping with Wrath (thanks Wrath, that helped me keep alert), but while that was happening I was busy designing a pair of tats which netted me several hundred dollars Saturday.

And, though politics can be interesting at times, its ultimately bad for you, and bad for me. I burned out of it back in college. 
I'd Just Like To... 
Wish this thread a happy birthday. 
Haha 
is the map still in beta? 
Well Happy Birthday! 
From the unhappy land (for the day :( ) of Carolina. I'm often asked why there is a North and a South Carolina; the split came in colonial times when all the legislative delegates South of the city of Charlotte wanted to pass a law that would allow you to marry your first cousin. Those to the north were steadfast against the idea, and thus there was a split.

Okay, so I steal everything from the Simpsons . . . So sue me; uhm, I didn't mean that Fox! D'oh. 
 
shut up you ape. 
He He 
I'm wearing my raybans -- and having them on I'm too cool to let anything phaze me. All right, I have them on to hide all the cryin' I did last night. A freakin' out of bonds punt return!! Kasey how could you? 
... 
someone should change the topic to "Old Q1SP" because i keep getting fooled into thinking there really is a new release! :P 
Actually, 
I don't think the current map is part of MadFox's Gravey Trail release. It is a single map called Quatrotski. He decided to use this post to continue the discussion. 
I Know 
i was just kidding around :P 
Yes, 
this is the "madfox has something new to say" thread. Whenever he has something new to say, he posts it here, regardless of the subject. 
Heh 
mostly, i find it amusing that the thread is so old. this must be the oldest news thread on func_ still in use, and it probably has good competition in the old qmap for the same title. :P 
Hmm, 
there are some interesting old flame wars in the archives we can dredge up for a good time. Eh, nah. I'd like to finally get this map finished and move on to other projects. 
Victim Of Knowoneness 
I would like to thank you all for your patience.
It was februari 2003 I decided to send a pack of 18 Quake1 maps to this section.
Then UnderworldFan ak me to wait and make them better, let them beta tested by people on this board and all.
Suddenly I came between a bunch of hillirous idiots, who thought it a good job to wrench up this intention.
I am quiet sorry. I never knew people could be so hartless to mute once enthousiasme into the shape this toppic has become.
People ask which radiostation I like. People decide to use their name as betatester and suddenly I find my posts ruined.

It was just a sincear comment to lend you a Quake1 event. But finnally it has become a point of useless cries.
I hope I did not hurt anyone, who liked to give comment on my tryings.

I wish you a happy birthday Xen, I don't think you ever have wondered that this toppic was about a sequel of 24.
So now I am still in beta state Starbuck.

I never had expected the func_board could be used to nihiliate someones tryings.
But I hope you have a good party of American Football.

Thanx to all who gave me good advice, it was worth trying.
I think I end this toppic here.

Great Fun to you all 
Er --- 
I thought what you said was a bit odd -- but then I took a look at my last post, and I see what you mean as what I wrote could stand some clarification.

'I'd like to finally get this map finished and move on to other projects.'

That was in reference to my turtle map which I have been labouring on for the greater part of a month. The development has been quite slow. The other projects refer to Tronyn's new project which I have a map idea (based upon the ruins of Angkor which I'm impatient with myself to get to). I wasn't refering to Quatrotski which you have my support on as long as you need. 
Is There Anyone Out There? 
All right, let's try it again.
I hope you realize the name of this toppic ought to be - A New Q1 Mod - because it are actually 24 maps.

Don't let me be a zombie, and explain I had the intention of letting people beta test these levels on this beautifull board.
But before I could start a beta, I was asked for my favorite music station. And yes, I like 9#nails a lot, but I could never promote my radio to make it their favorite tune.

So let me just go on, and offer you the second map, as sending it to people and remind them again only leads me for an "Are You Waiting For Christmass?"

The second map is Quatrotski, and is packed in the awfull *.rar archive.
But as I explained it before above, I won't even argue about it again. I am just a freak with 5Mb Webspace and that's all there is...
Have a nice try, and bark up your commands,
or just let me woe like an unmortal!

http://members.home.nl/gimli/quadr15.rar

And don't take the changelevel, because your computer will get haunting for the mod!!! 
Wow 
i found a new map at the bottom of this thread 
Or It Was 
the bottom (no pun intended) til i posted that 
Sigh 
Madfox: It wouldn't kill you to start a new thread from time to time... 
Xen 
I wouldn't encourage that; new threads are for discussion. Although it would probably be better if he posted this in the Screenshots/Beta thread. 
Yeah 
fuck this thread!
ARGH!
madfox go awaey to screenshots/beta thread!!! damn you to hell bastard!!!! 
Shut Up And Play! 
...and then you tell me to go to mapping help
don't you see how much you crosstalk eachother?

reason why this board is not as beautifull as it could.

and Vondur, you may call me that after playing
the level 
MadFox 
It may help the betatesters if you wrote out a questionaire for those who play the levels.

Say,
1) Overall impression? Fun, tedious, or just okay?
2) If you answered tedious, could you specify the areas or encounters that annoyed you?
3) if you found it to be 'just okay' what would you recommend to spice it up?
4) Were the textures correctly used? What did you think about the textures aesthetically speaking? Did they match up well? Did they contribute to the level in terms of mood and did they help make the brush work look convincing?
5) On a technical level did you find any misaligned textures? Or poorly scaled textures?
6) Were the entities set up competently? Any lip over hang in the platforms or doors that should not be there? Monsters facing in the correct directions to notice the player, or are they doing interesting things, like walk patterns?
7) How was the layout? Too simplistic? Overly complicated and fustrating? Or done competently enough to help sustain your interest in the level?

This sort of list could be helpfull in pointing out things you may have over looked. 
Uhh Beavis...you Got Me Going' 
You did so excellently I could hardly make a better try. I will be glad if people would react in terms of that seven Notes you just wrote.
If not my intention for making these levels would lie in that way of that treatment.
As a matter of fact their just the tryings of how far I could go with the Editor, and not so the perfekt shape they could behave.
I am not relativating the great maps one could make, only the almost adventitious way they arise.

When I let people betatest them it is more a question if they could follow the path I tried in one of the irrealistic imaginations.
And if they answer it will surely be the things they felt most striking.

there are a lot of things in them that are just results of crunching with that magic polyhedron.
Often there are things that I even can't change,or the compiler would give an error.

But in fact every rection is usefull! 
Cool Map ! 
good points:
-it rocks, it has everything Quake has
to offer,loved the tense combat;also
the environment is great with the water
sections,the platform part, the jumping
puzzles,the secrets and and...no boredom
here
-theres much exploration, and i love
that kind of map
not so good points:)
-there is far too less ammo, especially
for the Sg,i dont mind having only the
weaker weapons,but atleast enough shells pls !
(played on nightmare)
-right at the start and later on there is a
mix of base/med enemies, thats always weird,
use more fiends then instead :]
-the texturing is a bit bland sometimes,
but the gameplay is there so personally
its ok with me :)

Great map Madfox, looking forward to the
next one ! 
You're A Warrior I Didn't Count On 
Thanks for your answer, I never play Nightmare mode. At least not yet.

May be the reason you run out ammunition.
But if I put more ammu in it, there would be to much for the normal Skill settings.
If there was a way to put in ammunition, specially for Nightmare, I would do so.

The only thing that bothers me in this map,
is the fact the respawn of the Shambler on top of the Castle does'n't make it hostile, because the distance is too long.
I try to put it closer, but it doesn't work.

I never concerned the types of monsters, I just place them.
I wonder what you would think of The Orb.
It is in the original pak file, still to come.

Maybe the textures are flat, I don't know.
I just intended to keep the old Thred ones.
The ones I see today are so sophisticated, they make me feel Quake2 or further.
And my tendings belong to the Antiques.

Thanks for your reply, it makes it worthwhile! 
The Lack Of Ammo Makes The Shambler Very Hostile 
The only way for me to take out the
shambler was to take the Penta,jump
into the water and put all my nails
into him,then run around to get more
and kill the rest; the lack of ammo
made it very tense,was very fun :)

Maybe it would be cool to place base
enemies only in the basement,it could
look as if the humans backtracked
themself
Its always strange to be attacked by a
knight and a grunt at once lol
Thanks again ! 
Uhm... 
there is a way a have items only show up in specific skills levels. you use the spawnflags for that, but most editors have checkboxes for that. 
Shambler's Respawn 
The harnesh awakes the Shambler, and so the Squad near the lift makes its turn for the lack of ammunition.

I aint got the spawnflags for Nightmare, although Quake made my worst nightmares come through...even my checkboxes provide only easy, normal and hard. 
 
that's becuase there are no spawnflags for Nightmare, that setting only effects monster reactions and such. 
I Can Always Send You Betamaps? 
Shall I send you maps from my Nightmare
or shall I box my skill settings cheques 
Madfox.. 
..you�re welcome to send me maps
to test,thanks for the offer ! 
No Fool, No Fun! 
OnePair is on its way.
Have fun with it! 
Got The Map.. 
..and will play it asap, hope i might lay the
trusty axe to rest this time.
:)) 
So Where Are The Betatesters? 
so no betatesters anymore for post #177
then I will submit a new map!

surprised SielWolf, how you managed to download bonus.bsp after I already had changed the file! 
For Your Stamps Only... 
Last But Not Least 
revieuwed the gameplay and skill settings, and scaled the level up to 3/2.

Maybe someone can look if it was worthwhile...

http://members.home.nl/gimli/trail.rar 
Well This Is The Third 
time I play through this map and the basic problem remains; the confusing gameflow. Apart from the beginning, there is no sense of progression, no explanation why you kill monsters, push buttons or open doors (and I don't mean a plot).

There are only a few distinctive areas that you can recognize and see how they relate to each other, everything else is basically a maze of rooms and corridors that are just all too similar.

I didn't find the nailgun until the very end, so I had to resort to just SG and GL, which is sufficient but very boring. I couldn't find the gold key without noclip and after that, I couldn't even find my way back to the gold key door, even though I'd passed it before.

I can see that you've improved several aspects of the visuals, but the gameflow absolutely kills this map. It's very important to understand that the player does not know the map layout inside and out or what all triggers do beforehand. 
Thanks For Your Command 
I had no plan, making this map. It just arise while mapping. I understand your concern for the confusing gameplay. But as I didn't had any tricks to explore the level, you might find it dull to play it.

I can start explaining why you kill monsters, but then I wouldn't have started afterall.
True it are just a maze of rooms, but I made it for my fun, not for scoring in the ID-standard collection.

I don't know what means SG and GL, but for so far I play Quake standard, without any engines than Telejanos. FitzQuake blew away my selfmade monsters. So I don't get it when you couldn't see the gold key, or found an open door closed.

I am willing to change things (skill or gameplay), if you could tell me how. 
i think what he's saying is the map needs a fairly major rebuild. either that of can it and start fresh, this time with a clear layout in mind. 
Sg = ShotGun, Gl = Grenade Launcher 
'I am willing to change things (skill or gameplay), if you could tell me how.'

Study the maps that you find to be the most replayable. Get Quark or a decompiler and get a good look at the layout. Ignore the eyecandy stimuli for a moment and look for the areas in the map you find most engaging.

Usually these are places the mapper purposely creates a tense situation for the player to resolve. Figure out how this was accomplished by studying the entities that are grouped together to achieve these effects.

A good example and an easy map to decompile is E1M6 in the second large room there is a good deal of entity intereaction. the floor lowers into a ramp beneath you and doors open up slightly above you where Ogres start popping grenades on top forcing you down to where you are in the middle of the Smasher trap.

Create simple maps that recreate these situations and then once you know how to do them get creative and make your own variations and original situations.

Dont be afraid to include Hipnotic, Rouge or any other Progs.dat with your map even if you don't plan to vary the weapons. monsters or sounds in your map. These Mission Pack progs give you a better variety of entities to tool around with, the mover base ones can greatly ewxpand what you can do in map.

Do address the problem AquiRe rightly points out of it lacking a plan. Create hierarchies in your design. This involves weapon placement
shotgun --> nailgun --> doublebarrel --> perforator --> grenadelauncher --> rocket launcher --> thunderbolt. You don't have to keep to this order obviously, but when you do vary it up, have a purpose in mind dependent on what you want the player to accomplish.

Make a hierarchy of monster encounters. I like to start off with a tense situation to get the player moving, but after that I like to raise the difficulty of combat gradually from each series of encounters. In Quake the usual most logical place for the climatic battles in volves the keys or getting to the gate. After all, those are what the monsters are suppose to be guarding.

Be aware of the physical language of the environment. There are several 'signs' put in the texture set. If you mean for the player to fallow a certain path, then use the arrow sign. Also key marking signs for silver and gold help designate those doors or relevant areas.

Okay, I think that is enough for now. BTW I submitted my first release of fullscale Quake Single player map a few days ago on fileplanet so you should be able to evaluate the usefullness of my opinions soon enough! 
Proper Attitude 
That is lot of advice. Thanks for that.

As this is map 19 in range, I have become a little odd. I tried this map for days on skill settings, and I really get "blinded" by my own meanings.

As for you, playing it fresh, I understand what you concerns are. I will try to have a look again, but working on 27 maps, and make them intercourse, has blown my attitude into a strange direction.

I first thought, I could extend the maps on this board to see how they could be given more tension. Now I notice my mappings have overtaken the idea, to get into a real Quake mission, and I believe this is rather a high card. Because they are still "the diary of a mapper", with all its rights and wrongs.
Thanking the "heaven of sparetime".

Maybe I should put up the bunch on my homepage, so you can considder what this greenhorn has put himself into. But then also the magic of the unexplored gets lost. 
Sorry If I Was Unclear 
but listen to HeadThump, he's got a lot of constructive suggestions. 
Sure 
he has, but I have gone over the limit.

Here I am with a mission pack of 27 levels.
They are not all as good as I wanted, but I begin to feel the delay of two years of intensive working is taking its toll.

I tried to put it on my Homepage, but 22.8Mb is just to big. So I'll send it to Underworldfan.

There could be done a lot, but don't forget it was just a good joke to make this thing. And if I keep changing things with your good advice (nodoubt!) I'll probably be working for another two years.

And I would like to keep a good feeling for it! 
... 
this is just idle words here, and i don't mean for you to do anything by them, but i think it's safest to start small with first maps. imagine if you had spent 2 years on maybe 4 maps. you would have 4 maps with the detail of all 27 distilled down. i remember my first release was hard for me because i was still learning mapping and i wanted to do so much more. it was originally twice the size but had to be cut down... so maybe your next project should be smaller so you have time to concentrate on the details...

just idle words... 
Not That Idle 
but I posted the level for playing, and I could use a good hint to make the gameplay better. 
Afterall... 
I have recompiled all levels of the Abandon with Arguire's compilers: TxQbsp1.1 - Vis2.29 - Light1.40 & Tyrlight0.94

Some started with the error: leaks, which I could seal after hard reconstructing. Others
suddenly started spreading HOM's in such way I couldn't imagine I had ever compiled them right.

Three maps I wasn't able to compile because of the new compilers wouldn't clear the leaks.
Still don't know how to avoid them, but I was luky to have the compiling dates of the originals, so I could light them with tyrlight.

Now I can say I finnished the whole thing, and left a conversion with a plain lightning and compiling, wich is of course much sharper
than the original was. 
Download 
See: http://pipeline.fov120.com
status :released 
As For Bugs... 
Some of the brushes suddenly become invisible but still solid, so I walk on them blindly. Some others, on the other hand, become illusionary but still visible, so I fall through them.

Quite a lot of brushes are misaligned, so various odd ledges and cracks appear, sometimes player even stuck on them. Some water brushes protrude from the walls.

There's also some bugs with monster placement - I saw an Orb and an Ogre merged together, and also some Dinosaurs placed below the ground.

Some areas are absolutely dark, I think the minimal amount of light should present there.

Keep studying... 
The Previous Post Was About The Whole Abandon Pack 
To the moment, I'm very impressed with two maps: start and r3b6.

A strong sense of different reality...

P.S. And, of course, teleport brushes should not appear standalone, they need some kind of portals or slipgates, etc. 
Thred 
At the time I compiled the maps I only had the compilers, that were available with Thred.
And as I hardly knew what I was doing with the grid settings, I made a lot of errors.
The Thread compiler has no floating point(?) compiling base, so it places all brushes back on grid.

For these reason a lot of things I saw in the editor appeared otherwise in game.
In the end I was already glad all maps were fullvised, although there were severe points.
The pak wasn't beta tested, so there can be doubled placed entities.
The ammu count on SameOlSjo is too low to survive. In some game engines there were entities that fall through the ground, I didn't test them in all games.

I have recompiled half the pak again with the new compilers. Some maps won't compile or only with severe homs which I really concern.
Others I have updated with a static camera, so messages are more easy to gain access.

r3b6-Ames Room, I made when I tried to reach the so-called mathematical idea of a room with two chairs, that look the same seize, but are not and are placed far from eachother.
The startmap is a drawing of my first project drawing of an old medieval chapel. 
An END Map 
Playing end.bsp from Abandon, I felt a strange feeling of deja vu, I remembered I've already played this map a long time ago...

And recently I found the answer:

http://www.primefan.ru/stuff/quake/elden1.zip

That's an old map by Ludovic Texier, named EldenCross. I downloaded it about 13 years ago from ftp.cdrom.com (do you remember this server?), as well as some other pretty good old maps like The Epoch Turning or MadHouse:
http://www.primefan.ru/stuff/quake/madhouse.zip
http://www.primefan.ru/stuff/quake/epoch.zip

Madfox, is Ludovic Texier your real name? I am just confused. 
Oh I See Now 
...just found an answer in the abandon.txt, where you give acknowledgements to

"Ludovic Texier for my morphing of his terrific EldenCross level"

So all the things are clear.

Heh, this pack gives me so many surprises! :-) 
Yes, That Server... 
Levelmorpher isn't the end level, but the secret level. I guess you found out , but as there were more people who got stuck in the game I added an overvieuw with all names of the levels.
You can find it here:
http://members.home.nl/gimli/Abandon.txt

When I made the pak I hadn't internet, just some cd's from the BillBoardService.
Some of them had tricks from the QuakeLab which made me decide to build levels around each trick, like exploding walls, real glass, fryer cache, wind tunnels.
It was also there where I found the LudovicTexier level of the Elden Cross, and not to forget Liquid Despair.

It might sound strange, but on these cd's were also levels from Doom and Duke3D. One of them was wrong labelled, I think it was a Duke3D map. When I tried to open it there was an error saying it was no Dukelevel. After some scratching it appeared to be a Quake level.
I have played it, some wide blue level with a strange tower that went down with a big turning round staircase.
After all these years I started to believe I just dreamed it, so I started looking without result. Still searchng as I never saw it anywhere.
My memory of it is so strong I think I can better make it myself again. 
Bump For Necros 
 
 
thanks, scampbot. ;) 
..eating Shit Without Chocolate Around... 
. 
Those Would Be Great For Conjuring ;P 
 
Good Bump Indeed 
 
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