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Q1SP: "Slime Refinery Complex"
It was initially started for Base Pack, but as everybody knows, things didn't happened as it should be... Anyway, no drama: only fun, enjoy or hate it, and feel free to comment...



NOTE: requires Quoth to play:
Nice Map, JPL.... 
...there are,IMHO, quite a few things to be pointed out.
Architecture i quite nice and has a good sense of progression, with opening doors leading you back where you had been before, which is always nice, on the down side maybe it is a little too linear, a more complex choice of routes would have been welcome.

I don't like D3 texes in Q maps. Period. Just a matter of taste, really, but I think Rubicon or Wind tunnels texes, or maybe Q2 slime complex texes would have given a better touch t the overall feeling.

Fight is a little sparse, with intense fights interspersed with more reflexive moments, which, in my book is very nice.
In my opinion, the big let down of the map (I only played once on normal, 22 mins. 4/7 secrets) is the huge amount of ammo and weapons. On normal it's definitely too much. I've been quite surprised of inding the sng in the room right after the ng, and the rl, well, you could do without. Sure, the final fight is really bouncy this way, but then I would have left out the sng, you really don't need two weapons as powerful against grunts and flyers, basically.

Last, the secrets, two of the ones I found are almost the same, in the very same area and one of the other two, that gets unlocked from inside the other, is a bit useless, since you're likely to go get it after having killed everyone.

Did not find the way to the Big Blue Power, but, again, I did not need it anyway.

All in all, a fairly good map, with very nice architecture and good fights, that could have been better balanced. A much welcome surprise on a late Friday night of a very hard day.

That is about all for 1st impression, gonna play through again on harder skills and maybe write again.

For now, thanks a lot for having let me begin my weekend on a very pleasant note and keep up mapping, you're great!!! 
Is the way to go!!!
This map loses all its flaws on skill 3. Ammo Balance is much more realistic and everything falls into place!

6/7 (I know where the 7th is, but can't figure how to open it)
25.38 mins

Big bravo, JPL! 
Just... additional information: this map need Quoth to be played... I forget to mention it, could add the info in the thread title metlslime please ?
Thanks in advance ;) 
Nice Shots.. 
Whoa..those shot look extremely nice...going for some action right now! 
Pretty Good 
The fighting is a bit lumpy though; the bob hordes were a bit odd. I can understand it from this missing enemies though.

Also can't say I like the Doom3 textures too much - the resampling looks pretty rough.

Maybe an external TGA texture pack? 
is there a chance to get the tgas of the converted textures? The ones in game dont look so good.

Comments later, I'm a bit furstrated right now because its too dark and I died :( 
Nitin / Ijed 
You can find all the tga files in one of the Doom3 .pk3 file... I extracted all the stuff last year, but I'not allowed to distribute copyrighted stuff as is... It was already "close to the limit s" to convert the textures downto Quake and distribute it... Anyway, open the .pk3 file, and look for tga files... you should find the stuff...

In anyway, I'm glad that the first players enjoyed globally the map. Thanks ;) 
could I please get an email with a list of what to look for :)

I dont want to extract everything. 
OK, I'll send you what to look for in the co,ing days: I'm not at home actually, I'm using a friend's labtop, so I don't have access to all my Doom3 stuff... Maybe tonight, or by monday... 
Looks Fine... 
great you decided to release this map!
Ain't got quoth installed yet, but sureley will try it out.
Another load of good ol' Quake! 
Another Worthy Diversion... 
Great stuff, JPL. Linear, sure, but great nonetheless. The textures were good, although I would love a set of those 24-bit TGAs as well, and the gameplay was good and challenging. The ammo was bit sparse at first but I had plenty for the final encounter. I didn't like the swimming through the slime bits, however. Ultimately, though, it felt like a perfect Quake-Doom hybrid which is what, I hope, you were shooting for.

This is bloody hard on skill 2. Not Warpspasm hard, but hard nonetheless. It doesn't need ANY more of those sodding robot drones.

It's quite good and an interesting layout, but I didn't like the textures either. They're too OTT for Quake. 
OTT = ??? 
over the top 
Love it or hate it, yes, but I think D3 texes look just perfect here. I'm not sure hires originals will suit so well. Bit downgrading to the Quake palette generates a great posterization effect. A welcome modern touch for Q1 that doesn't look much like D3 anymore, in fact. I mean, SRC recalls Malice and Neil Manke's SOF and Starship levels... The old Fox banned and somewhat awkward Alien Quake TC might get a great lift with such textures! The level room interconnection design (of which the slime tunnels is my preferred part) and lighting ooze JPL's love for SciFi. Cool and well balanced. Regarding this, I think Quoth rocketeers and defenders are highly suitable in this environment. Kinda disgraceful in classic goth Quake surroundings and mostly avoided Quoth monster, the bob has finally been cast in starring role here! Bob's AI, sound fx and deadly lasers sweetly go on my nerves. I just love to frame them one by one in these cramped corridors (with plenty of boxes to hide behind). Both drone traps are this map gameplay highlights!

I whish sometimes skill 0 to be easier, to really enjoy a map design on first run. But not here. One could say my interest is much more design/progression than fight/survival driven. True. But SRC's easy is indeed easy. The battle challenge never ruins the enjoyable trip. (I confess having a beer or two when going for hard and nightmare feast usually...)

Many Quake level designers in the past have successfully pushed Q1 beyond its original visual bonds. I think JPL is one of them. And don't call me a fan, please!

My single whine: the final teleporter. Outside of the rather nice sound fx, nothing happens! I was expecting a tube teleport raising, a lightning blitz from above. Say, some visual reward/cherry on the cake... 
@Trinca: I saw the message, and it is effectively weird... BTW, shame on you!: you beta tested the map and didn't find it before the release :P Anyway, anybody knows what is this Host_Error message that an inelligible something is not possible (sorry I didn't capture the full message)? Maybe it comes from JoeQuake ? Weird...

@than: Thanks a lot for the acronym explanation ;)

@JohnXmas: Thanks a lot for all these good comments, I do not deserve it you know, cause some people seemed to think I'm a "nasty" guy. Anyway, I'm really happy to read such comments: it conforts me that I've made the good choice by releasing this map without waiting for Base Pack....

@Shambler: OTT, can I consider this as a compliment on my Doom3 texture conversion even if you don't like it ? :P

@generic_maps / the silent: Thanks for the feedback, it is always interesting to read what other people think of my small "work"... BTW, if you need a clue to the secrets, don't hesitate to email me

Well, I hope you will not be deceived by the next coming maps... I finished the 2nd episode of "Five Rivers Land" project, and I still have to make some small tests before launching beta tests... It is even more linear than SRC, but there are some "good" reasons.. you'll see that in time :)

Again, thanks a lot for all the feedback. 
ops i forget to talk about map ;) i enjoi it a lot and as you guys can see in my demo is pretty easy to finish map ;)

i think the doom3 are not the best to fit in a Quake map but JPL did a great job becouse the lights are very good and map a very nice Quake feeling, i enjoi the map becouse of the many good action on it! the most negative aspect in map was that bob area near start where were about 6 or more bob�s :\ that was real boring dispist of that i enjoi the map a lot ;) 
Zombie Bobs 
It's an old QC bug that's in most mods, including Quoth. It happens when you enter one of the secret areas, a shambler and two bobs are killed when they spawn in (you can hear this as a sudden weird noise). In this case the shambler gets telefragged, but the two bobs start up even if they're already dead.

As you can see, they don't behave normally either; this is because there are repeated checks in the bob animation code for the monster being alive, so animation doesn't work properly when it flies around being dead.

To work around the QC bug, you'd have to make sure the shambler and the two bobs don't spawn in so close to each other. Ask JPL to fix it or patch the entity section in the bsp. 
Trinca's bug demo has probably been recorded in JoeQuake, therefore there are some Nehahra info in it that e.g. Fitz can't read (hence the Host_Error). Playback the demo with Joe or any of my engines or convert it to std Q1 demo format using my ConvDem utility.

The demo shows two zombie bobs that remain after all monsters seem killed (128/128) and that can't be killed. My post above explains the two unkillable bobs. 
So it is not coming from the map itself... good news indeed ;)

And thanks for the feedback Trinca !

Thanks also to metlslime for the additional Quoth info in the thread announcement.. 
I sent you an email this morning, and it seemed to be rejected...
I re-sent it, and it seemed to pass: Did you received it ? 
Yes I got the 2nd attempt, I've replied now. 
I didn't mind the Doom 3 textures, they even looked quite nice in parts combined with the architecture. Reminded me of Invein (nehara add-on) or that aliens TC. The gameplay, however, was let down by the ridiculous over-use of the annoying robot flyers. Its a shame because the other Quoth monsters fitted in really nicely. Also, I too encountered the robot zombies as mentioned above, and that was really the icing on the cake (or not). 
Thinking About It, 
I played it in Quoth 2 beta, and not the original
Quoth so the feel of Bob is quite a bit different
in the two versions.

So, meh bad. 
I take it that it was meant to be a bit dark because even after turning up the default brightness for quake I still struggled to see, is that the doom3 influence?

Anyway, it's good stuff. I didnt have a problem with bobs on normal, more those grenade enforcers and their damaging shotgun blasts.

Looks are decent, dont really like the textures in quake, but brushwork is good. and I have to say best use of coloured lighting yet in quake, very subtle and effective.

Nice map overall jpl, keep it up. 
Pretty Nice 
I died once in slime and once with those shotgun guys.
Found one secret, killed all. Played with skill 1.

I liked some details too. You do nice lighting. I liked the silvery curvy place too.

Some textures were lighted upside down btw? 
It Was Great 
... too bad there weren't 3 maps, heheh.

I think this used the Quoth base guys very well, I had never been worried about the green enforcers or the flying drones in any other map that had used them, but this map used them very effectively and I hated them ;)

I liked the unusual attention to detail with all areas of the map.

Quoth really needs a base boss that is the equivalent of the Gug, like the Cyberdemons used in Event Horizon or something.

Speaking of potentially useful base bad guys ... Source of Power has those battle robots or whatever they are. 
I am no lover of base maps (monsters especially).
Thus I did not expect to like the map anyways and I didn't... ;)

However, here my comments:

I liked the doom3-ish curvy part. Looked nice.

Now the ranting:

The map was way too dark-bland lit. This plus the high amount of "visual noise" from the textures made it pretty hard to get a good aim on the monsters. They just melted into the background. Might be just the textures and not so much the lighting though, no idea.

I REALLY hate when maps have little brushes everywhere that make the player's view (and step) go up and down and up and down. Blocking decent strafing in combat, generally making it a pain in the ass to move. Same goes for crampy door and corridors (the one near the Vore at the slime pit where the scrags spawn is a good example, I died 3 times there and always simply quit Quake because it made me so freaking angry that the map caused me to die).
And why on earth did you make all those small ammo/health "stashes" (the small holes in the walls) just so high that a player thinks "hey, I can walk right in there" but instead one has to jump?! I don't want to think about how often I died because I went for health inside there (eg in the last room) and still thought "hey, let's just walk in there - what? - oi!- now, in therARGH!".

I really hate Bobs and the green enforcers, but I blame Kell & Necros for these instead. :P Bob is a typical "modern" monster that strafes like a mad man, one of the reasons I dislike many modern shooters. The green enforcers are so very powerful and just unfair if you place them in the back of the player because they fire very fast and with such high damage (that ass behind the crate there...).

Another flaw: There was no visual mark for the sk/gk doors. The sk door even had a yellow/golden mark on it. :\
Doors generally were hard to see. 
Mixed Feelings 
Agree with Spirit. I must say that I have exactly the same feelings about this map like him. The textures were ok for me and the architecture looked pretty nice but there were those annoying "details".
The level felt very cramped for me. There was not much space to manouver which made the fights with bobs and green enforcers very hard. The final room looks very nice but I always hit the walls and supports during the fight. Those holes in the walls with ammo/health annoyed the hell out of me. I quit quake twice before I finished this map.
I don't think that bobs should be used in packs. Fighting so many of them at one place was pretty boring and annoying. I also think that there was not enough ammo (or health) on hard skill. For me it is always the case that when I try to save ammo I loose some more health (and vice versa) . I have played the map on hard skill (after reading the silent's post :) and didn't have any ammo in front of the SK door. I have lost too much of it trying to fight the bobs from far away. Well, maybe I just can't play the game good enough.
For me the map looks nice and interesting but the gameplay was not good. 
Same goes for crampy door and corridors

I thought it felt like really being in a base. A base isn't going to have wide corridors and someone might be around every turn.

In wide open areas, there isn't a monster (or even 10) in the world that stands a chance against a good player (unless it is a vore and the map is a void map or a lava area).

This was one of the most frustrating (combat wise) maps to play I've played in a long time, but it was frustrating in a good way in that I had to pay attention and be careful for once.

If there were 2 more maps and some sort of "base boss" somewhere at the end, it would have been perfect (to me). 
Please Don't Figth !! 
I can understand the map was frustrating in a way. My intention, as denoted Baker, was to create a certain unsecurity ambience. Remember Doom / Doom2 / Doom3, the idea was to create bad surprises on each corners, and stress the player as far as possible. It was my primary idea... as usual I should say...

Concerning layout, I took inspirations from some 1870 war bases I know (an old Germans vs Frenchs war... once again..), also refreshing the brushwork, in order to avoid flat concrete walls as in CMC...

Also, to increase the insecurity feeling, I think that there must be more darkness areas than brigthnes areas..... in the nigth it is more difficult to see what you are shooting, and alos more frightening (e.g Predator movie...).. I know some people don't like it, and I tried to tune the darkness/brightness ratio in this way... In anyway you are not navigating in the complete darkness... maybe it comes from my flat screen...

Well, maybe I will "respin" the map when Quoth2 will be released (next century maybe :P ), because gameplay was less boring with those cool new monsters (e.g pyro, sentinels...): as examples, half of the bobs have been replaced by sentinels... a shame... you know what I mean...

Anyway, thanks a lot for the feedback, good or bad, it is always interesting to read different point of view, and to learn from that, even if it is difficult to satisfy everybody...

BTW, soon will come an even more frightening map (about the ambience).. "Five rivers Land" is waiting for you... :D 
There Is No Spoon 
I have to agree with JohnXmas on the textures. I think they looked fine, but then I guess everybody has their own idea about what Quake should be. I like different maps, and generally feel modern Quake mods and maps suffer somewhat from people reining in their creativity for the sake of making something that fits in with predetermined ideas of... erm... Quakeness. 
Warpspasm really suffered from that. As did JPL's other map (the castle one).

Fair Enough 
All the Warp textures were from classic-type sources, but if you're going to use more modern sets at least convert them properly to the Q1 palette, which was my beef with these ones.

Why I asked for an external .tga set . . . I deleted the game that the textures originally came from quite a while ago.

It was the blocky pixel resampling I didn't like - the textures are probably great undeneith that. 
I found the visuals very confusing. The color scheme made it hard for me to see where I was going/was supposed to go. Half the time I was mistaking wall panels for doors. The little niches added to the irritating feel.

The Quake/Quoth base monsters don't really mix with the textures' color scheme. The bobs I think are too tough to be used in groups. Their HP should be reduced to the level of Quake2's flyers (they should die from at most four SG blasts.) They're robots, they should please a) be stupid and b) fall over when shot.

The green enforcers are too tough, and Bob's strafing gets on my nerves. I'll take scrags over Bob any day.

Technically the map is obviously good, texturing is fine etc. Gameplay/flow is very Quakey but it strangely doesn't feel like Quake because of the textures.

I didn't find the map too dark, except in the slime.

It's not my cup of tea though :-) 
Small Update ! 
I corrected the 2 zombies bob generated by spawning / telefragging monsters. I updated the stuff in the download link.

I just would like to thank all the people who supported me during this project from Base Pack to "here": theys will recognize themselves (e.g beta testers, technical support, etc...).

Thanks to all the people that gave feedback, bad or good. I would like to emphase a single thing: it is really difficult to innovate without hurting the Quake purist.... I will be recognized after my death only... ;P 
I think the crampiness added to the baseyness of it. There were a few holes yeah but it was not that bad.

The problem with suits and slime is that you have no multiple tries to go through the swimming place. It was not obvious which door opened when you came from the other side. 
where can i play the game at already? 
Frustrating Map 
Gameplay felt very unbalanced with not enough guns, ammo or health to deal with all those really tough Quoth monsters. I first tried briefly on Hard and couldn't advance after the first bob horde, no health and no ammo.

I switched to Normal and I must've died over 20 times and then I even knew every encounter beforehand. I couldn't finish the map with any reasonable effort, so I quit.

Taking down five or six bobs in a row with only shotguns? There should've been SNG or PG early on with a lot more ammo to handle this, I felt seriously under-equipped until I found the GL.

I find this apparent trend in making overly difficult maps disturbing. I can imagine that skilled DM players can handle this easily, but this isn't DM.

As for looks, I liked the textures and layout, except for the slime maze. Some textures suffered from the restricted palette. It might've helped with the Malice palette instead (more greyscales), but then the monster skins would probably look bad ...

Like others have mentioned, it was too easy to get stuck on things while fighting and this made the map feel a bit cramped. More clipbrushes might've helped here.

Sorry for sounding negative, but I hope for a better experience in your next map. 
Don't worry to be negative: everybody is free to have his own feeling about a map, even if it doesn't please the mapper.
Someone told me here one day: "it is not a popularity contest", and I've integrated very well the concept...

At least you enjoyed the architecture ;) so it's not totally negative :)

and concerning my next map: you are already experimenting... :P 
I didn't find the map too cramped - at least I didn't get stuck anywhere. Played on normal and it wasn't too hard for me, no problem with ammo and Bob hordes. Dunno how it is on hard skill though. I died two times; once in the slime area which was fairly confusing. 3 secrets.
Although it's nice that someone finally made use of the Doom3.wad, I must admit I don't like the textures. They are too gray and don't really seem to fit with Quake, even though they were used quite appropriately here. The lighting didn't help much either, maybe some more delay/wait tweaking would have been good. Nice curves (and aligning) though.

Preach: Please take a look at the spawn code. Every time monsters spawn in, there are "walkmonster in wall" warnings (this occurs in every Quoth map). 
Walkmonster In Wall 
Is a hard-baked bug (I understand).

Basicly Quake checks whenever a monster is created weather or not it can move - calling it walkmonster in wall if not.

The Quoth spawn code works in such a way that the monster isn't active when this check is made, so is automatically called as stuck.

It does nothing apart from confuse the issue if you have real stuck and delay spawning monsters; but they'll be called at mapstart anyway.

The best solution is to just turn off this warning in-map for delay spawned enemies. 
Easy Fix 
It's something I know about, my tutorial for spawning monsters on inside3d mentions it. Basically the test always fails because the monster is not "onground", since it's usually not preferable to have the monster droptoground() when you teleport it in. You could fix it by always calling droptoground() when you spawn a monster in, but then you can't have monsters appear in the air from teleports(unless you do it the old fashioned way). So the best thing to do in my opinion is just have the monster opt out of the test at the same time as it opts out of droptofloor(). This means you don't know when teleporting monsters are in walls, but there would be no easy way to check that anyway - you can't distinguish between "still falling" and "stuck in a wall" in a reliable way.

Anyway, it's just moving a } two lines down, so now fixed. 
Ok, was just my mangled explanation of what I'd heard some time ago; good to know Quoth2 has it fixed. 
Played This 
a few weeks ago, really enjoyed it. In fact, it got me looking up some of your other maps, as well as some goodies on UWF's and Shambler's sites.

I don't complain about the D3 textures, they are a great deviation from the normal q1 base. Keep 'em coming JPL! 
Wow, I was not aware SRC has this side effect on you.. and I'm glad you took some time to play my old maps... I really honored..
Thanks a lot supporting me... 
I find this apparent trend in making overly difficult maps disturbing

- there are skill settings
- nowadays I guess most fps players have played online, so the skill level is higher in general
- playing the more difficult Quoth with keyboard only, you can�t expect to do very well ?! (i.e. there are some ownage Doom speedrunners who play kb only, but in Quake with 3d and all?)

Surely a map should be accesible to a wide range of players, but if a map is too easy on the other hand, I tend to not replay it so often, no matter the looks. 
I found the Bob hordes in this map too hard, too. With Quoth 1, please no more than 2 Bobs and player should have either quad or SNG then. Really. With Quoth 2 beta, it's entirely different, so everybody who finds this too hard should replay it when Quoth 2 is out.


The rest was manageable.

Overly difficult maps: Well mappers should stay _reasonable_ IMO. For example, three droles with just a shotgun is not reasonable. One drole with SSG + Quad is reasonable (even fun.) One drole with grenade launcher is also reasonable.
Necessary weapons should also be in plain sight, prior to meeting the monster(s) they're intended for, and NOT in a secret area.

But isn't this all pretty standard?

Big monsters -> bigger guns plz.

Multiple tough monsters -> Quad plz. Player should have fun, not stress.

Roxeur Extraordinaire 
- textures needed some getting used to, but again I liked them, only sometimes it wasn�t easy to identify doors etc.

- gameplay was top notch, I�ve never seen the Quoth base monsters placed so well (some comments here about "that ass behind crate" are proof of that :) my only gripe being there were too many bobs, they�re boring to fight IMO. Fun secrets, but too many weapons/ items (but I was glad to have the LG at the end)

- the slime/ biosuit part is my favorite (quick decision required, raised the tension), but there are so many great fights here, like the final battle; had no problems with crampedness, actually I liked that too

Thanks JPL for another awesome map! (demo
Roxeur Extraordinaire 
- textures needed some getting used to, but again I liked them, only sometimes it wasn�t easy to identify doors etc.

- gameplay was top notch, I�ve never seen the Quoth base monsters placed so well (some comments here about "that ass behind crate" are proof of that :) my only gripe being there were too many bobs, they�re boring to fight IMO. Fun secrets, but too many weapons/ items (but I was glad to have the LG at the end)

- the slime/ biosuit part is my favorite (quick decision required, raised the tension), but there are so many great fights here, like the final battle; had no problems with crampedness, actually I liked that too

Thanks JPL for another awesome map! (demo
Pretty Sure I Pressed Submit Only Once 
wtf, sorry 
Sielwolf, And All... 
Thanks for the demo, I got it ;)

Just a small comment on bobs 'usage', I replaced some of the sentinel (Quoth2 monsters) by bobs, so it explains why there are so many.... I did as well with pyros and eliminators... I would have been happy to release for Base Pack rather than 'alone on my own side'... :P

Anyway, thanks also to all people who posted here and supported me for this map.. 
That Makes Sense 
Are you going to do a 'deluxe edition' with the new monsters put back in when Quoth2 is finished? That'd be nice to see. 
No.. I will do something else later... if Quoth2 see the light of day... maybe next year ;)

Nasty again... :P 
I'm working on something for Quoth2 - Kell + Preach + crew are doing a good job.

It takes a few weeks to make crap or many months to make something good.

I'd be prepared to wait for two years to see it finished 100%. 
The map really is quite nice after getting used to the textures etc.

If not a "deluxe edition", perhaps SRCv2 with just some of the Bobs removed? Several people have now "complained" (mildly) about that. 
Are you going to package the 24-bit textures along with the next version? Please. Thank you. ;-) 
IIRC he didnt do it because it would violate Doom 3's licensing. 
Well Actually 
that shipped sailed with the original conversion.
Id and other companies have long ignored mods & maps that skirt the licenses. 
Well, I don't have the original 24-bit textures I used to create the wad... You can found the stuff in one of the Doom3 .pk3 files: it's up to you...

I also made some tests (with aguirRe's support) in order to see how it looks ingame, and it is not as good as the Quake wad format... Maybe because the wad "creation" process I used is a overlapping "mixery" between diffuse-normal-shadow tga files, and so it looks like Doom3 ingame (more or less), but has nothing to do with the content of original Doom3 at the end...

Next time I'll try to keep all 24-bits texture in a separate folder.... though... 
nice hallways.
Some minor cheating in this one due to light levels and slime sections. 
Played it again on skill 1. I liked the gameplay this time. I guess I'm used to the quoth base monsters now.
I fared pretty well, without problems fighting bob hordes and green defenders. Unfortunately I died when trying to find my way in slime without any biosuit left for use.
I thought I was recording a demo but it seems fitzquake doesn't support the record command after map load.
First I tried mark V but it messed up the textures. 
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