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Q1SP: Three Towers And A Sick Base!
Here is my new map! Its a medium to large sized Base themed map, wide open spaces, semi-non-linear, uses the Quoth pack. This map is not without a few bugs, however it took six and a half days to vis, and I'm not going to do it again!

easy on easy
176 monsters on normal
270-odd monsters on hard



I would stick to AguirRe's engine, availiable. If anyone manages to use another engine, I'd love to hear about it:

Last one to the top is a rotten egg!!
zommmg never saw a map start with so many warnings :\ and items fall out of map...

dispiste that i only played 30 seconds and look kind of impossible on hard... will try again later on... 
Doh ! 
Can't open this map. Quake says there's a program error, when I attempt to load the map from the console.

What gives ? 
with qrack i cant see either the weapons, items or monsters - and THATS not even on skill 2 :-D
gonna give it a try later with some other engines. 
guys only AguirRe's engine runs it ok, forget about others... 
Read The Text File FFS 
This map has to be played in engines with maxed limits such as aguirRe's or Darkplaces.

A nice map for sure, despite its unfortunate construction/size. Nice details and theme. Very hard on normal until the SK bars, from then on there was almost too much health/armor. Apart from that, gameplay was ok, with some exploration in the first half (although it is somewhat easy to get lost). There are several shortcuts (speedrunner to the fore), e.g. from roof to SNG room, and from Pent secret to middle balcony - i was mildly tempted to take one because I couldn't find the third tower at first. The explosion was cool, didn't know it could be used like this.

Some of the monster spawns seemed unncessary, especially since they were not silent - then again, it was probably better to avoid packet overflow or something. One fiend was stuck inside the wall at the bottom of the third tower and the invincible bob was a little annoying (though on second thought it wasn't so bad really, kind of like an environmental hazard)- any idea what causes its weird behavior? "delayspawn" is not a field. The sudden ending immediately after killing the Gug came as a surprise.

With such a large map, exceeding the marksurfaces limit is probably hard to avoid, I guess, but there are still some ways you could have lowered it at least a little more. Many of the func_wall'd structures didn't bring much of a benefit due to the way in which they were done and now only confuse/look odd when disappearing. The windows for example: func'ing them completely (with frames) won't do much. Rather only include certain parts of it in the func_wall. The fewer brushes touch, the better, even within funcs. The lights on the walls could have been turned into funcs as well (possibly illusionaries) or added to the wall textures - grouping textures is generally an apt way to lower the count. Finally, the crates and floor lights could have been moved up a little from the floors as well. Depends on the lighting of course and thus requires a lot of testing.

Anyway, good work still. 
AguirRe's engine rocks!!

Darkplaces works does it?

Are there any commands that can be used to stop func_walls dissappearing? There were two bad ones when I played it, as you go into the corridor for the SK bars, and the roof of the SNG room.

Anyone ard enough for nightmare?

I had to make a lot of func_walls to get it to compile. Vis groups are not much good for one big arena!

If you wanna have a laugh, try easy.

If you wanna have a good game, try normal.

'Ard and Nightmare are for psychos.

Anyone find the pentegram secret yet?

Anyone ard enough to post a demo on hard or nightmare - would be a god of Quake!! 
Which Items Fall Out Of The Map!!?! 
RickyT23 put developer 1 in console and then run map :)

i didn�t finish iet but map got a real nice places... i give a final feedback soon 
ok, finish the map...

1- good stuff brush work, lights and exploracion is very nice... enjoy it a lot!!!

2- gameplay in my opinion is crapy and most of times unfair and not fun at all...

hope you make more maps i enjoi this one...
sorry my negative in gameplay but i didn�t like much sorry :\ and i�m one of mappers that like to add many monsters... but not that much and not as unfair like in this map... 
and i'm one of mappers that like to add many monsters... but not that much and not as unfair like in this map...

Wow! If Trinca says you have too many monsters in your map, you might want to listen :P 
It's not so much the fact that how many monsters there are, its what they are. And the majority of them are grunts and enforcers. The Rocketeer and the Defender are what really ruin it, and make it not fun. They have have some pretty unfair weapons...

This is probably the hardest Quake map I have ever played, I still haven't been able to finish it on hard without cheating.

RickyT23, are YOU able to beat this map on hard skill? 
Im Workin On It!!! 
I can get up to the second tower, havent had much chance to play it this week cause its been compiling.

I figure if I can make it up to the second tower on Nightmare, someone must be able to get further. After you get the GL it evens the score a little.

Easy and Normal are quite playable tho!

Orl gave me a demo of him doing normal straight thru, 1st attempt!!

Clue: extra armour and health in first room after 1st lift. shootable tex above shells on floor (might be hard to spot, 32*32, at top of vertical post at side of room).

As for RickyT23 Nightmare Sickbase demo, watch this space (hahahahaha!!!) 
Is It Possible 
for me to get the zipped source map? 
I Played It On Normal 
- The huge layout and tons of monsters is very indicative of Doom2 level design and gameplay. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but when the map runs this poorly, you really need to reexamine your approach. There's a reason maps like this in Quake are usually a lot more enclosed - you have to imply the open space by capping more areas off with sky. Being able to walk over the top of every building isn't necessary, especially when it does to performance what it did to this map.

- Your brushwork seems to have improved. The parts of the map that weren't stuffed with far too much detail were constructed very well. The parts that were, like the ornate lamps and trellis windows and stair railings, while ... nice, are just wholly inappropriate to both the style and what the engine is meant to do. Quake doesn't just scale up in capability linearly if you put it on a faster computer. The fact that the map took you that long to compile should have been a major warning sign to you.

- I only finished this by taking the round-the-ramparts SNG shortcut and skipping the silver key door. Not because I didn't have the silver key, just to avoid having 9/10ths of my health shaved off by the giant explosion, and THEN having to face 2 droles. There are a number of combats in this map that are terribly unfair that way, such as the three vores that are teleported in right on you after hitting the two buttons by the SNG, which you can't escape without dying, reloading, and coming back with prior knowledge that it's going to happen. Or the rocket troopers on the ramparts way out of range of your weapons who can hit you with rockets with impunity. Or going up a lift into a tiny room and being faced with a bunch of enforcers, or going up a different lift into a different tiny room and being faced with two fiends and two flying sentries with your back to a wall. You are unfair to the player at nearly every turn.

- Basing the map on three towers was a good idea, and lent the map's progression some overall structure. They were too crowded, though, for what you jammed into them. After frantically trying to survive the fight in the tiny cubicle at the top of each one I had to look around to see what I had accidentally done while doing so - I did not immediately notice the buttons I'd hit or the keys I'd grabbed because I was too distracted.

- I actually liked how you put new monsters right after grabbing a new weapon - those combats weren't too tough, and they helped the reward of finding a bigger gun feel more immediately rewarding.

- Ending is ridiculously sudden. At least have the gug's death trigger a slipgate to rise out of the floor. 
A Good Way To Balance Difficulty 
is to populate the map to where you feel comfortably challenged beating it, and make that set of entities Hard skill. Reduce for medium and easy. 
populate the map to where you feel comfortably challenged beating it, and make that set of entities Hard skill. Reduce for medium and easy.

Listen to the Lunaran, and learn. 
It Wasn't 
*that* bad. Played on normal. Died quite often.

Gameplay: give slightly more cover at least. Also less trites in the beginning.

Architecture: make it much less open. Also make details that stand out of the walls, func_wall entities but keep the walls behind intact. Don't make it so that complex geometries can see each other or they split madly and also vis takes long. Doors don't block vis since they are entities.

It had some nice shapes here and there and some cool details too like some windows... you clearly need more experience, then it's all good. Ask about vis blocking and that stuff, if you don't know what it means... try your maps in fitzquake after a fullvis and use r_showtris 1 so you see what the engine actually has to draw. 
Hey, I liked it. It was pretty good on normal skill. There were no problems for me when using carefull approach. I had left plenty of health scattered all over the level. I thought there was too much armour also. Maybe I was just prepared for the hardcore gameplay after reading some comments. I wonder how skill 2 would look like. Let's just wait for a demo from someone. I liked many of the fights especially after getting the GL. There were no progression problems for me. The quoth monsters were ok in this map (those flying things still annoy me a lot though).
The explosion was cool. The looks from the upper parts were nice also. There were some problems already described by others but overall it was nice. Good work but I think your next map should stay within standard quake limits :)

Here is my demo (20MB): 
Hey! Liked It! 
Played in darkplaces since AguirRes engine wouldn't load the map on my system 8-(.
I played on hard skill and made it up to the gug and then health was down to 12 not enough to beat the it 8-).

The map had a lot of nice designs and ideas - looking forward to see more maps from you in the future, 
ok try it more tree time on hard...

die die die


please make next map easy... :\ 
Do you have any more info why my engine didn't work, version, error messages or crash details? 
Finally managed to beat this sucker on hard skill. I almost died a few times, but got lucky. This is a 20 minute demo.

Now I want to see someone else finish it on hard. 
I get the following message at the console:

call1 469(precache_model)precache_model()
world.qc : worldspawn
(no function)
pf_precache_model : overflow 
It Looks Like 
you're using a very old version (more than three years old!), try the latest one instead (1.33). You need an extended protocol to handle all the models in this map.

Please let me know if it works better. 
Got bored trying to make a NM demo. I don't think its too hard, there's just not enough resources to deal with this qauntity of monsters. An early GL and about 50% more health would have made it more fun.

As others have said I get the feeling you only tested the map yourself on normal skill, then added enemies for hard - never works because the person who should be able to play the map the best is you because you built it. When you add an extra level of difficulty over that (untested) you're not making hard you're making a Doom1 style nightmare, which pretty much obligates any casual player to use godmode.

Mind you, I was trying it on nightmare ;)

Cool setting, nice to see the grand scale, even if it did nack the engine in various ways with model and sound overflows, but I've used that as a mapping tactic so its not the end of the world, even though from noclipping around I can see that with some cleaning up and sky capping (as Lunaran says) you could have dropped the amount of slowdown and vistime considerably.

The func_walls popping in and out of visual existance are called flickering entities - AFAIK its when a func (of any type) it existing in too many vis leafs at once, so the player moving or looking at different ones means that the engine thinks the thing can no longer be seen by the player, because its origin is so far away, and stop drawing it.

When this happens just split the one large func into two, three or more smaller ones. Same thing, just split it up a bit - like the crenellations that could have been groups of two blocks each.

I noticed you used it on alot of archways as well - this is a bad idea, since what archways do (at least, the type you have) is create more vis leafs. Might sound bad but what it's actually doing is dividing the map into more managable pieces so the engine doesn't break down and cry every few minutes.

It also means that you lower vistime because instead of processing one gigantic portal you're doing ten (?) little ones. That is, at least if you cap the sky; make it so that each of the buildings touches the skybrush at the top, use some tricks like that (where the player will never get to anyway unless they're noclipping) and you can drop your vistime. Put a few verticle sky brushes linking the buildings that are lower to the sky and you can further cut vistime, but its a question of how much you can get away with vrs. things not looking bad.

Same kind of thing as for the flickering entities - try and be a bit more efficient and then you won't end up staring at a compile window for a week, or have irritating bugs crop up.

Anyhow, a cool setting and some really good ideas, I'll be trying for a NM 100% demo, at least until Sielwolf beats me to it :)

Looking forward to you future maps. 
is the only reason this map exceeds max_models is the number of func_walls created to speed up vis?

If so, it would be interesting to see a version with the func_walls merged into the world, and merely fast-vised.

Though I suspect this map also would have packet-overflow errors as well.

(NOTE: the fact that parts of func_walls dissapear in some levels is due to a maximum number of leafs that a bsp model can occupy or something. I have partly tracked this problem down, and I think it is related to the number of efrags, so if that limit were bumped, it might solve the problem.) 
wow ... when the world needs defending, can I call you? 
Sure, if I have some free time. 
I Liked The Momentary Look-around When The Rocket Arced In From Above 
but your mouse sensitivity makes my head throb 
I Know What You Mean 
I sometimes get a headache from viewing demos because it seems like they are moving around really fast. But when its me being the player, it seems like its never fast enough. I guess because I know what to expect when I'm behind the mouse, and its just the opposite when I'm watching someone else. 
Well Thanks Guys! 
I consider this to be a warm reception for this map! A bit of controversy never did anyone any harm (or did it?)

I have tried and tried to do it on NM setting, and I get so close (to cracking the second tower), I'm convinced it's possible. If you know where the Quad is, and you conserve it, and enough ammo for the top of the second tower then that would signify a turning point in the map, cause you can get the GL, PG, Megahealth and Pentegram before any more combat.

Quad is on roof above SK door.

I do think I could have balanced it a bit better on hard setting (maybe, SNG and more nails earlier would have done it), I do think if I knew a little more about compiling or had a little more experience I could have avoided dissappearing walls a bit (ijed, thanks for tips). And I wont ever forgive myself for the two lights next to the lift in the caged Feind room!

Im actually quite glad people say its too hard, it makes up for Deja Vu (supposedly 'a bit of a joke on Nightmare')!

I havent had a chance to watch Orl's demo yet, but somebody atleast managed it on Hard - well done Orl, you're not a rotten egg ;)

Nightmare anyone? (I havent given up yet myself)

P.S. - Lunaran

Thanks for the very good technical advice (again) genuinely appreciate such usefull advice and tips, sorry you got blew up a bit by the bomb! 
Thanx Orl! 
I have now watched your demo. You are a god of Quake! Everyone else just complains it's too hard, whereas you just stfu and kick some! I got quite a rush from watching it, I bet you did when playing it!

So of Orl can do it on Hard with only two out of the SEVEN secrets, surely its is possible on NIGHTMARE!!!

Lunaran - Difficulty settings - I think that although I could have made this a little smother on hard, to always base a levels difficulty by looking at your own performance on the hard setting could be a good idea if you are a brilliant player. Im not. Thats kinda what I did with Deja Vu, and ended up with people saying hard and nightmare were to easy. This stuff hasn't been posted for 48 hours and people have had it cracked! 
When you get the harsh looking around thing try chase_active, it can make it a bit easier to watch, but can sometimes have a looking outside the map effect if it has alot of thin walls. 
Everyone else just complains it's too hard, whereas you just stfu and kick some!

it's human nature to hear twenty people say the map is too hard, and one who says it's fine, and to decide that means the map is fine.

There's nothing wrong with hard and there's nothing wrong with 270 monsters in and of itself, but you're just too rough on the player. You're not trying to beat him, you're trying to make him have fun. I'm hearing a lot of people saying they didn't have any. 
Personally I don't think it's too hard, but just has too few resources. But the idea is to guide the player from start to finish, almost holding thier hand, (but so that they don't know it) and making them feel like they've achieved something and managed to beat you.

If you want to kill the player you can make a fullbright box and spawn thirty shamblers on map load, then release.

Ideally you want the player to drop to 10 health two or three times in the level and hover between 30 - 70 for the rest of it - those three times being the highpoint ambushes of the map that the player only just survives.

In order to make the map as acessable to the maximum number of player skill levels ideally each difficulty level should be tweaked to guide a player of that caliber through the map with around 1 death on easy for a bad player 1-2 or normal for an average player and 3-5 for a good player on hard / NM.

Mind, that's just my opinion, and something I didn't follow too closely whilst making my pack. 
I think thats a good way of looking at it, a good sort of model to aim for, I like the anallagy of holding the players hand without them thinking it. It can be hard to judge tho.

I didn't want to kill the player (well, maybe just a little bit ;), more just to make them feel really challenged and never stop shooting/moving, which to an extent I feel I achieved. I liked the idea of having a massive wide open space to run around in, and then being chucked into a small space with lots of enemies allreally close up, chaustrophobic quick draw action. It's a real challenge. The bigger the challenge, the bigger the sense of achievement!

If people wanna have fun then PLAY IT ON NORMAL

Its like those rubix cubes. I hate them because they're too hard.

so true^
games are all about fun. this map is not. its frustrating 
That Was Reffering To 
Lunaran "There's nothing wrong with hard and there's nothing wrong with 270 monsters in and of itself, but you're just too rough on the player. You're not trying to beat him, you're trying to make him have fun." 
Grit Your Teeth And Quicksave Often 
when you pass the SK door, things get better. 
.. if you play it in God mode... though

Well, it mainly depends of the player skill, and not the chosen skill for playing... and so it depends of of your own skill as well.. but as you know the map, you are not the best person to judge of the "real" difficulty level of the map...
Maybe more beta testers, and more beta test sessions would have helped...

OTOH, the map was quite enjoyable visually: all is not perfect, but there were few crappy areas... my personnal taste... Lightning could have been better as well...
Well, as you are "starting" in mapping, I hope to see more and better map from you: keep it up, you are on the right way ;) 
I tried it on Normal and had no fun. Didn't proceed further than the first tower from where I had no idea how to proceed (take the obvious shortcut or not) and died soon. But then I hate base maps anyways. And the map itself made me wanna cry because of the very flawed design and poly-waste. For example why did you make those spheres hollow?

This map clearly shows why you should do proper beta-testing. Also why you should map with Quake's limits in mind. And not to forget the many maps people simply put to their scrap folder as not worthy releasing. This sounds quite harsh and mean but I am under the impression that everyone wants to release high quality here.

The map has some nice brushwork though.

Shambler, I want you ranting! 
Well, Fine 
by all means keep mapping however you want, but if your only response to players not liking your map is "play better" then I shan't be playing the next one at all. 
Honestly, I think that different people will always have different opinions of maps, if I were to release this again I would put a SNG and some more nails earlier on in the level.

So the map is a little hard.

The next map I realease will hopefully improve on points outlined to me since I started reading this forum!

I knew somebody would comment on the hollow spheres. The spheres are hollow because I used groups of brushes already used (I rushed it!) 
make a smaller map next time so you learn the same amount with less effort expended. :) 
Just Watched ORL's Demo 
The only way he managed to survive was by knowing beforehand what was going to happen, most noticable in the tower fight/luring the monsters on the lifts. The towers seemed to be the main gripe in this map - the prime indication of excessive difficulty.
The green armor in front of the base (between tower 1 and 3) should have been a red one, plus a little more health on the outside.
Luckily, for some reason I managed not to get hit by the explosion.

I realized for the first time that the rockteer actually shoots homing missles on hard :o (tip: he does, however, not fire at all if the player stands too close to him).
The Defender's SSG attack needs a tad more delay between animation (sound) and actual shot. The way it is now, the player hardly gets a chance to take cover. This can quickly become annoying and add to possible frustration. 
Can You Do 
Only Ents build on fully compiled bsp? (i.e change point entities only, meaning a vis is not necessary?)

If so how?

I could doctor it a bit - more armour like you say - SNG on Hard much earlier, few more nails, y'know, fix it?

I am having interesting thoughts towards my next project. Playing Ankh's speed map was inspirational. I observed how he planned the map around gameplay whereas I planned this one with brushwork and appearance more in mind (although I tried to implement more fun gameplay elements also). 
qbsp -onlyents
make backups before you try. 
It Is Done... 
I have uploaded a 'fairer' version of the Sickbase to the Shub-Hub:

Could one of the awesome moderator-type-people *please* update the link at the top (just add '1' between 'sickbase' and '.zip'(obviously))

Comiserations to the god-like Orl (maybe Nightmare is now within reach)

We now have:

- yellow armour at the end of the first room
- megahealth instead of normal near second tower
- red armour instead of blue near main entrance
- SNG at foot of first tower
- more nails if you look for them
- one less gaunt on hard

unable to fix faulty func_walls or lights due to lack of patience and time for re-vis

Hehe. Sorry people. I'd LIKE to look at this as extended play-testing exercise, but its a bit late for that really (hangs head in shame) 
RickyT23 dont stress ;) for the time that you are mapping map is very good! ;) but next time make more betas!!! :) and make map more fast please! the most fun stuff in quake is the speed... and this map made me feal stop :\

hope to see more from you, i think you got talent ;) 
I don't think that replacing already released single player map with new version is a good idea. Please don't do it.
It was an interresting approach to make a map that even the author can't beat. I'm sure there is always a way to complete impossible maps in quake. Let's just wait for an NH from Sielwolf :) 
The only way he managed to survive was by knowing beforehand what was going to happen, most noticable in the tower fight/luring the monsters on the lifts.

Theres more involved than just knowing where they were. I only knew where the monsters were from the first 3 towers. After that, I didn't know what to expect. Many of the monsters were in different positions in the beta, so many of the ambushes caught me by surprise, such as the vores and the vorelings in the SNG room, and all those flying winged demons near the end with the two gugs. Wasn't prepared for them. 
Dont Play On Darkplaces... 
Its a nice engine in some ways but over the years has accumulated too much cruft and bugs. Yes it loads the map but runs dog slow on my computer (even after turning off RT lighting) and there are tons of clipping bugs. Aguires engine has no problems apart from a few disappearing brushes.

I don't know why ppl are saying its so hard, is there some unspoken rule that your not allowed to save? Completed it on nightmare and yes, even though I died more than a few times it was all over within an hour. I only found one point where I think it could be impossible - if you accidentally fall off the gug platform there is no way you can make it back up there to finish the map, without getting killed by the stomp attacks. 
We're Not Listening, Are We? 
Quit saying "so what if the map is hard, cry some more" for fuck's sake. The point I kept making was inappropriate amounts of space in combat. Not that the new weapons didn't come soon enough or there wasn't enough armor. You're too often either fighting shitloads of stuff at a time with no room to maneuver or stuff that's too far away to be feasible fighting in the first place.

I'm done here. Take it or leave it. 
To Be Fair... 
In re-reading your initial post, the "tiny rooms" and distance aspects were just a couple of (good) comments among many; they didn't seem to me like the major focus of the feedback.

I suspect RickyT23 just might not have "gotten" it, since I had to read back to figure out exactly what you were referring to.

[/panties bunched]?
Or perhaps I'm just retarded. Eh. 
I Dont Mind 
All I can say is that I've got a lot to think about before my next release.

Im not claiming that this is the best map ever made or anything like that.

I have uploaded a version of this map with a SNG so that when you get into the towers you can 'nail' (so to speak) all of those nasty Defenders with shotguns without having to have a cow. I could have removed some of the enemies from the rooms, but the SNG along with the red armour and extra health should mean that it isnt necessary. I cant change the fact that I released this, I maintain that some hardcore Quake addicts managed to blast their ways up to the roof on hard difficulty even prior to the changes, even that they felt compelled to do so, and didnt just delete it from their hard disks in disgust, theres nothing I can do about it. I have started putting some brushes together for my next project, and hopefully I'll have the mind to avoid nasty bottleneck blackspots that leave people feeling frustrated and dead.

I think that anyone who CAN do Sickbase on Nightmare (cause it is possible, was before, definately is now) should be pleased with themselves for being able to complete a very hard map!

Anyone who cant, I'm really really really sorry! 
Lunaran - Fuck you!

I fucking sent you a copy of this map, I fucking asked you if you would look at it, you said you would, I politely tried to remind you, so why didnt you voice your opinion to me then rather than wait for me to release it, THEN play it, THEN help me to see all of the flaws in it?

How come you bothered to look at it at all?

You miserable bastard. 
Ah, Yes 
Rick, If I Was You.... 
...I'd cool it now... 
Post #56 
Nice, I like it.

Haven't played the map yet. 
*Phew *. . . 
For a minute there I lost myself. 
Well Yes. 
Shambler, I want you ranting!

Sure, why not:

You lot are a bunch of whiney losers who should take up knitting or something. Only Trinca and Orl have a right to comment on this because they've put some effort into facing up to the challenge. WTF is this "Play on something that challenges a bit and call that Hard" nonsense?? Normal should challenge you a bit, Hard should challenge you a fair bit. Things have moved on since Quake itself, when we've got maps like Warpspasm and that big gothic temple thing recently (sorry forgot the name). God knows how you lot got through those without wetting yourselves... Okay so this is a bit hard but it's not that hard if you use your brain and explore the whole map, you've got about 10 square miles to work with so take advantage of it, explore, take obscure paths. Retreat is an option yes?? Run past monsters and get to somewhere you can fight them safely. The Vores were piss as you never had to fight them on their terms. Okay there are a few unfair situations but there are in a lot of maps, most of them only catch you out once. For what it's worth, I did cheat on the very final battle on Hard skill but only because I ran out of ammo, if I played it again it wouldn't be a problem.

WTF is this "Play on something that challenges a bit and call that Hard" nonsense?? Normal should challenge you a bit, Hard should challenge you a fair bit.

Shambler, the reasoning behind this approach is that the mapper knows his level inside-out, so he has a big advantage over a first-time player. Therefore, if it feels like normal for him, it should probably be the "hard" setting. 
Hmmm okay..... 
Shambler fails at gamedesign 
Watched Ankh's Demo... 
You did get 100% monsters on normal, aguirRe has informed me that there are four missing monsters with entities with no targetnames. For some strange reason quake only reads six of the seven secrets, but a pop-up message occurrs with all of them (weird). Hmm, maybe I put one of them as a trigger_once instead of trigger_secret. I'll check... 
Gets Better After The Start 
Unfair gameplay. The towers were a pain in the butt since you had no choice but to take damage. It got better after this but there were still some annoyances.

I played the map with Darkplaces and FPS was constantly pretty low on my new computer. There were also some strange bugs - you were able to walk through some brushes (mostly boxes) and enemies came through walls in a few spots.

Architecture was pretty good but I'd have stick with original surroundings (grass, mountains and blue sky with maybe water beneath the gameplay area instead of lava).

Didn't find any secrets, took me about 15 minutes. 
I happened to notice one strange secret room with a ROS, maybe that's the lost secret? 
Ghost Boxes... 
...That's because of some Darkplaces' bug. Played it (sort of ) in aguirre's GL and it works like a charm.
But, totally unenjoyable without a very fast F6 finger... 
I Reckon 
The Quoth creatures are pepper. Too much and they spoil the map, but used sparingly they make it more entertaining. 
I was thinking if I made it so that the guys in the rooms at the tops of the towers were facing away from the elevator instead of towards it it would have given the player a bit more of a chance.

ROS secret is a tuffy. Four of the secrets involve shooting textures, two of which are subtly 'incorrect' textures.

Has anybody figured out the Pentegram secret yet? Its on top of the third tower but getting there without cheating - you have to stand in a certain place and shoot a certain button. 
Pent Secret 
Yes, I found it. Hence my remark about the possible shortcut. 
If You Think That 
the map is too difficult, try running it under Warp in coop 4. Or coop 3 for only std id monsters.

And if it's too easy, there's always coop 2 ... 
Oh Good 
I worry it was a bit too obscure! 
Try running it in a engine other than yours. The spf (not fps) will make it worse. 
Your current Neh engine don't have the extra coop features?

I ask because its more favourable to use the most recent for warp (mainly for the PG effect) but that'll mean that the extra coop mode starts won't work? 
I Was Just Trying 
to help balancing the gameplay, I can't do much about the open layout and fps in other engines.

What I meant was putting the map+skybox under the warp (i.e. Warp Spasm) directory and run e.g. -heapsize 48000 -quoth -game warp +coop 4 +map sickbase. The important thing is to use the warp progs for the extra coop modes to be available.

It might help fps a little using coop 3, since the std id monsters are probably less demanding than Quoth, otherwise it shouldn't have any impact. Make sure to use the 48M heapsize.

ijed: The coop modes have nothing to do with the engine, it's all in the progs. I always recommend using the latest engine version. 
I read warp and thought warp exe. 
I was just joking and trying to subtle hint how much I miss your engine. Damn Linux! 
Some Comments 
Spirit: OK, no problem :)

neg!ke: Invincible bob is a Quoth progs bug (a pretty common bug in many mods), same as what happened in SRC. If you run under Warp, it won't happen.

metl: Turning back all func_walls to solids will actually increase marksurfaces from 52k to 57k (pretty close to the hard limit 64k). Other values will still be over the normal limits along with vis leafs going up from 5k to 12k (this will crash most engines immediately). Clipnodes went down from 43k to 37k and # models went from 342 to 188, though. Lightmaps are also too much in both cases; about 80 > 64.

Not to mention having 46k portals to vis, just fastvis is about 25 mins and fullvis ... argh. Qbsp also went up from 5 to 14 mins. Having just a fastvis is basically pointless; it can't dismiss much due to the open layout and it's almost 16MB (more than twice the map size 6MB).

As soon as you get above groundlevel, it's constant packet overflows with std protocol 15. And if that's fixed with an extended protocol, the map feels *much* more sluggish than the current release.

Fullvis helps in some areas and would've helped even more if some holes and windows were plugged. So there's definitely room for fps improvements, but the current release is actually rather good, given the extreme map layout and level of detail, monsters etc.

Also, most of the flickering entities are solved in the current release without a full rebuild, if Ricky decides to release a third version. Raising the engine efrags limit is already done in my engines, that doesn't solve the "span too many leafs" issue. 
Need to learn to create more detail with textures instead of geometry. Its old Quake fterall.
Im still yet to see people use alpha grates/fences, since all the engine mods support alpha textures (and old engines are usless for such maps that brake all the limits anyway) 
Played Through (Almost) 
A lot of good points were raised on this thread with regards to gameplay. I accidently played on Hard (batch file doh!) and made it up to the two end bosses which I couldn't kill without cheating. I found 4 secrets.

High Points:

- Great big DooMy vast space and mega structures reaching to the sky (great wow factor)
- Some nice brushwork and fixtures in places
- sprawling non-linearity
- cool shadows from nice light fixtures
- neat sculptures
- great sense that you're in a volcano
- generally good navigation after you open up new areas
- Another new mapper who can feed us more good stuff if he's inspired to continue


- I saw a couple stuck robo-drones that can shoot but not be killed
- Chuggy framerates + Guants = many reloads
- Battles where you are pushed into the enemies and can't avoid significant damage (tower battles - those hateful vorelings at the start)
- speed bumps like the slow short lift near the SK bars and doors that needed buttons to open.
- if you run down after the bosses spawn (to get more ammo or avoid death), you're done since they'll Quake you to death before you get back up or they'll trap and kill you in the elevator.
- sometimes good and sometimes not good supply balance (agree that it gets better after SK bars)

I had my struggles playing through but I was motivated to continue since I wanted to see more of this grand scale setting. BTW, don't feel bad that it took days to vis - my Travail maps took weeks. 
What Does 
coop 4, coop 3, coop 2 actually do? 
New Version Released 
AguirRe has fixed this map up nicely:

-Flickering entities have been reduced to a negligible level
-Error messages on load have been removed
-Monster count has been fixed

Also this version contains all the adjustments that were present in the second release:

- yellow armour at the end of the first room
- megahealth instead of normal near second tower
- red armour instead of blue near main entrance
- SNG at foot of first tower
- more nails if you look for them
- one less gaunt on hard

Im gonna email moderator-type-folks and see if I cant just get the link at the top of the thread fixed too!

New version is availiable:

Thanks again AguirRe! 
see the Warp readme for details on its coop modes.

It has nothing to do with coop as such (i.e. being more than one player), I'm just using that cvar to enable different play modes, which can be used with one or more players.

Having more than one player in a map may still require explicit map support to prevent players from being locked out etc.

Just try it and see what you think! :) 
Ok, if we forget about the earlier versions and make this the only valid one? I would remove the older versions then and rename this one to (and finally put it into the Quaddicted archive, I was not in the mood the past days). 
Erm, Yeah! 
I tried emailing Shambler and asking him to change the link at the top of this post to '', but so far nothing has come of it (it was only about 3 hours ago or so).

Any bet says you delete the older versions from the Hub, rename the new-un, and then Shambler updates the link to so it wont work. Ha!

BTW - The new one uses highest zip compression so it is about 4-500k smaller. 
If It Isn't Obvious 
Make sure to keep the original bsp if you want to check out the demos posted above by Ankh and ORL. 
Funny You Should Say That 
cause im watching the old demo on the fixed map and so far it seems to be working fine...

Do you expect it to crash at some point? 
I mixed things up here; the demos will work but the flickering ents will still be there as this info is taken from the demo. Still no worse than before.

However, the savegames won't work if you replace the bsp, all the models will be messed up. You'll get a lot of warnings when loading such a savegame.

Thanks for the heads up. 
I just found the penta secret ...

With this, it's definitely possible to get from the RL via quad to the end balcony in almost no time, skipping GK altogether. Next question is if it's possible to get to the RL without the SK? 
Im Not Sure About This 
But I think you're suggesting rocket jumping with the pent and the quad almost the entire height of the building.

Demo anyone? 
Ignoring All 
monsters, you can jump from the GL/SK tower directly to the RL, then down to the quad, use it to quickly get to the penta tele and then RJ from penta to balcony.

You'd better have some penta/quad/ammo/health left, though ...

The open/tall layout of this map offers amazing possibilities for jumping shortcuts, I don't know if I've ever been able to quad RJ this high before without hitting the ceiling. 
Has that 'flying' section secret in the base map towards the end, but I think you hit the skybrush there as well. 
Good Stuff! 
I finally made it to this one :) Very good architecture in parts, without any framerate considerations whatsoever. It was fairly non-linear but I walked into many areas with serious lack of ammo. The drole surprise was very cool. Many of the other ambushes, however, were just too difficult (on normal) to survive. A little more ammo and a few fairer fights and you have yourself a winner.

Keep on keepin' on! 
finally ticked over to the new billing month for my ISP. Planning to check this and Deja Vu out over the next few days. 
if you do play Sickbase, try the newer release (#83) - AguirRe fixed some bugs and gameplay is a bit fairer - could you also update the link at the top of the post please? 
played it finally. i'm not sure what version it was because i downloaded it quite a long ago, but played only a few days ago. so:

great scale (i always loved large scaled maps), some nice brushwork, but pretty unbalanced gameplay (i suppose i played one of the early versions), i don't like fights with many base enemies because their attacks are much harder to avoid unlike the attacks of medieval baddies. also i met one unkillable drole and it was disturbing me from time to time.

overall a pretty good map, next time you'll need just a proper testing before the final release 
updated the news link to the new file 
Played It 
pretty nice map.

Good things are the level size and immersion factor, it's very detailed (although it looks a bit messy in parts construction wise) and the general gameplay. I didnt find it too hard (played on normal) and you managed to avoid the sniping gameplay present in most base levels.

Things to take into consideration for the future are some gameplay annoyances like forcing player to take lifts up and having 3-4 enemies waiting at the top each time. Als, lighting was decent but could have been better. Few bugs such as unkillable bobs and bobs shooting through platforms but I take it they are quoth related??

anyway, nice job and there's definitely some good imagination on display. keep it up. 
Really Enjoyable Map! 
Have got it sitting in my HDD for a long time, but never gave it a serious try.

Well, yesterday night I sat down and loaded it in Warp and, wow, this is another really cool map!

The difficulty is definitely very high, proved by the fact that I F6ed and F9ed countless times. But every fight, except the end battle against two gugs, which depends to some extent on luck, is still possible without cheating, although I believe what I played through was the version with difficulty fixed by aguirRe.

All in all, really like this map. Challenging, but still very good. 
OK - Sielwolf - Superhuman Motion-Sickness Crazy Dude!!! :D 
Well, before he changes his mind, not much to say except this IS impressive....

Two versions here - one on the original map, before I added any 'help' (or AguirRe fixed flickering ents) and one on the easier version, shaving five minutes off the time....

These demos have Sielwolf Quad-Damage Rocket-Jumping the full height of the map (which is one of the highest maps ever...)

Thanks Mr Sielwolf!! 
As Usual 
impressive stuff, thanks for sharing this! 
The demo by Sielwolf cost me my one precious and only jaw...

Now I can't find it everywhere! 
Which One? 
(Which demo d'you think is best?)
1st demo - impossible, cant believe he managed it TBH. Gritty at start.
2nd demo - OK easier with SNG + more health/armour, but 5 mins faster too!!!

? :D 
I suppose I can't view the first demo with the fixed version of the map?
Don't know if anywhere I can still grab the unfixed version.

Anyway, the 2nd demo is still amazing for me, because I literally struggled through this map. It was fun, but it was STRUGGLE for me. 
Oops, silly me, I exchanged the place for my name and the title. 
Doomer/The Second One/Whatever.... 
You can watch both demos on the new version of the map!!

The old version has some flickering entities (func_walls sometimes disappear) and although the new version fixes this in-play, when you view the demo even in the fixed map the func_walls will still flicker. But you can watch both demos in either version of the map!

Weird eh? 
The colours (lack of lit - cloured lightning says its word here) and lighting may not be so impressive like in "the hand..." map, but the architecture is impressive. I liked it. The battle on normal difficulty level was tough sometimes. I remember for example trying to get up the 2nd and 3rd tower. not so good placing for grenade launcher. i was doing the supernailgun and suddenly found popping myself a grenade in front of the guy at only 2 meters from me. depends on luck what corner im retreating.
I liked the spiral stairs shooting mayhem with lot of enemy, altough had to reload due to that fiend surprise.
Also there was a bug with a drone that was appearing after the 2nd tower, it was invicible and stucked in the air (somewhat in the corner opposite to starting point underground lift). at least not so a big annoyance.
did not start with joequake. rather bad performance with darkplaces at least at 1280x1024. worked well with that glquake assumed to be aquire's modified, altough had to type +mlook in console.
And again: great design/architecture. 
Does anybody still have any demos of this map? 
I Have 
I've got Sielwolf doing a NH run in ><19 minutes.
Would you like me to mail it to you? 
Can you mail it to, Thx 
Have you mailed the demo yet, Ricky? 
i tried to do it the other night but it must have failed.

according to googlemail its sent now! tell me what you think :P 
Not Found

The requested URL /files/images/sickbase1.jpg was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Thanks, got the demo now! 
I dont know if you've been keeping up with current events, but the shub hub went offline in January. :( But Willem replaced it with :)

yhe1 - would like to know what you think of that demo! :P 
that means the files arent physically available from that address anymore. 
@ Ricky:

He played it opposite of how I'd imagine it would be played. He went for the fast and furious route rather than the slow and cautious route. I would have tried to snipe the enforcers from far away. 
Wellmake A Demo And Post It :D 
I cant do this map on hard. 
lol, I can't do the map in one go either. Also, I had to use -nomtex to make the map playable. 
What fucking crack was I smoking when I was saying the gameplay was fine in this?? Cos it must have been some stronnnnng shittttt.

This is the worst abuse of Quouth annoying base monsters in any Quoth map, and the 3 towers are some of the worse gameplay in modern Quake. I don't know why there needed to be monsters in those bits, just put an instant trap that knocks off 80-100% health and save the player the bother.

The rest of it was fine as was the finish. 
I want to add a nostalgic wtf at myself too for not being completely anal about keeping original releases no matter what. 
Keep in mind that the controversial enforcer backpack change in Quoth2 may well throw off the ammo balance in older base maps that were designed for Quoth1. In consequence, there'll be much less thunderbold and plasma gun ammo which makes them harder or even impossible to finish if they rely on these weapons in later parts.

Add this to an already hard level like this one and the mess is complete. 
It's True 
This map is too hard (was my second release TBF).

Didn't stop a couple of players from proverbially pissing all over it though.... 
Original Map+Sielwolf Demos 
After reading the interview on Quaddicted and the discussion here,
I got really interested. RickyT23, do you still happen to have the old version of the map?
What about Sielwolf's demos?
I'd be glad to see them.

I uploaded a demo:

Skill 2, all kills, no secrets, 20:13 
It was ok... Bit laggy in areas cause it's so open. 
I Remember This 
It took several attempts but I did beat it on hard and record.

Now I feel compelled to do it on nightmare. I have to. 
Just Replayed On Hard 
This was fun.. Died a few times but didn't have real trouble, though I got stuck with the last two enemies and not enough ammo. Quoth is easier now than it was in 2007, right?
Love the sense of all hell breaking loose towards the end. 
This took at least a dozen attempts.

Skill 3, 268/269 kills, 0/6 secrets: 
Latest version Quoth is easier on most difficulties, but harder on nightmare. So basically, very good job! 
Nightmare Run 
Took two attempts, but I did it. I believe I used the old, first release of sickbase, the one dated 10/20/2007.

267/274 kills, 3/6 secrets, 24 minutes. Recorded in Quakespasm. 
Orl, could you please mail me the first release
version of the map? 
Hey Man 
Cheers for the demo. Not sure how SW would feel about this, but here's some stuff:

I am using this version of Quake to run the map + demo: 
Thanks A Lot. 
Revisited This Map 
I doubt i'll be the rotten egg!

shaved off about a minute of what i had on my disk from ages ago
(must have missed that quad before) 
I can't get the demo to run. :( 
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