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Q1SP - The Hand That Feeds You
OK, here is my new map, posted on, mirrored at mediafire:

Here are some screenshots, same arrangement:

Heres the MapSource, same arrangement:

And finally a skill 2 demo with spoilers:

This map requires QUOTH. Also, please use an engine with lit file support, i.e. FitzQuake (Recommended), JoeQuake or Darkplaces!

Quite a big map, primarily idbase, there are 306 monsters on hard!

Thanks to all those who helped!

Happy Christmas!

[Edited out zipped screenshots, wtf]
Absolutely Great 
I was very pleased with this map. It's such an improvement over sick base in almost every way. Brushwork, lighting, texturing, and more importantly monster placement. I didn't find the map too hard, or to easy on skill 2. There were a lot of cool touches throughout the map that added to the experience.

I can't believe how much you have improved in such a short time, this map is excellent. I'll definitely be playing this again. Can't wait for your next map :) 
wow ricky, i'm honestly impressed.... you learn fast.. construction on that curved hallway is really weird tho 
Those Shots 
are sexy: I'll play the map ASAP. Keep it up ! 
Screenies Dont Work 
Heres Shub-Hub Screenies...

l0l! - Did I originally type blah/ etc?

What a hoon!

Yeah - The cieling of the tunnel! Well, I had it working fine, but then on the final full compile, vis kept kicking my arse with stuff like:

elapsed 3hr 20mins 85%
ERROR - Leaf recursion at (co-ordinates of non concentric tunnel of d00m!!)

So I func_walled 'em!

Just doing this reduced TxQbsp warnings from 47 to 15!!

the screens are 90% pitch black on my system. (half-ass software calibrated) 
I Havent Done Any Gamma Adjustment! 
Theyre just jpgs from tgas straight from Fitz! 
Nice, will play as soon as possible.

The screenshots are a bit dark but fine. 
Yeah, this was a good one. Architecture was top notch with a few good looking curved surfaces and I liked the exteriors of the base. I played it on normal and didn't die once but had to be careful all the time so it was pretty balanced.

Here's a demo of my first playthrough - took around 20 minutes: 
Screenshots ... 
... look very nice and I like the look of the stairs in that 2nd screenshot.

I'll have to try this one. 
excuse me, but how do i have to kill packs of vores and shamblers with no health and double barreled?

this map feels completely not balanced 
The map looks great, is large, the textures go together well and surprises with a few sections that weren't expected that also looked great.

I like large cavernous base maps and I think this map epitomizes what a modern Quake base map can be as far as size, appearance, use of lit files/skybox, textures, the various displays/pipes/"machines".

I played it on normal and the first 25 monsters were very challenging, but after that I never was "at risk" again.

It will be interesting to try this on hard some time, considering the large monster count increase from normal to hard. 
Thanks Guys! 
Vondur: Im listening; seems a little strange, I was wandering what engine you're using (I dunno, sometimes DarkPlaces jumbles stuff up, things fall out of the map etc) - maybe it's just my entity placement - seems weird though, the idea is that whatever skill you're on, you should have a SSG, NG and GL after about 20 kills, erm 100 shells (excluding grunt-packs) 125 nails (I think) and about 6-7 grenades (!?) - maybe with a demo I could see where you're running afray ;-) Might help my next map cater better for all sorts (?)

Orl: Thanks, Im glad you liked it, I'm glad you enjoyed skill 2, thats the skill I did most testing on - downgraded from there for other skills (although I think there's less ammo on skill 2/3)

Gibbie: Thanks man - I believe I have learned a lot, particularly from the aftermath of the Sickbase (l0l) - that hallway nearly got removed, but I decided to keep it cause A.It took ages to build and B.You dont see many hallways like it in Quake. Although I will say I probably will avoid such architecture in future projects! (czg was right - too complex, used Ijeds advice and func_walled the cieling)

Mikko: Thanks for the demo - really enjoyed watching it, also good to see someone complete it without finding most of the secrets!

Baker: Also v.glad you liked it, thanks for you kind words! Please do try it on skill 2/3 - weapon config is slightly different, a few ambushes 'n stuff too!

Thanks everyone for the feedback :-) 
Very Nice Christmas Gift 
you got there.
I really enjoyed the map, took me about 25minutes on normal skill.
The usage of textures is great and stunning: ie i love the tunnel/cave area!
Gameplay was fair, always enough ammo/health and a good resupply of armor.
Gonna go try this on nightmare now :D

keep on mapping that good stuff! 
Very Good 
Cool map. Very nice visuals. Great texture use and good architecture. The build quality is also top. I liked the layout and the combats. You should put some info about the need for quoth in the news text. Found it only at the very bottom of the txt file. My first try was without quoth and i quit frustrated after 5 minutes (guess the same happened to Vondur).
Anyway the map is very good. Keep up the good work. I'm amazed that you made it within two months. You didn't get that much sleep lately right? :)
I have recorded a demo on skill 1 but shubhub doesn't seem to work at the moment. 
Great Map 
Lots of detail and the theme changes were cool as well. Also lots of cool features - the bulletproof X's and the exploding X were fun.

I thought the Gugs were a bit underused, they could have been spread out a bit more (second appearance) and in higher numbers (first appearance) to be more challenging, on hard at least.

I did have alot of cells all the way through but I just left off using the PG too much and it was ok.

Anyhow, again an excellent map and I think you made a good decision there, switching from packs to a single concentrated map.

Also, Preach, I noticed this again here (probably you already know), but another bug in Quoth1 is the impulse 12/10 for weaponswitch. If you have both RL and PG but no ammo for one or the other (I forget) then only 10 or 12 works. 
I tried this without Quoth. I had to g+rj past one bit and noclip past the end. Doh.

Have a first run demo, one "death" from lava (a sort of "oops I'm in lava, quick put god mode and no clip on" death...).

I wouldn't say this map is the flagship standard bearer for smooth gameplay balance...

I did enjoy it though. I though the overall theme was rather good. 
Yeah - Should've Put "Uses Quoth" In Post... 

Would perhaps one of the moderators do the deed!! 
I played skill 2. As I betatested it earlier I had some advantage to a new player but still it felt pretty unbalanced. Apart from that it is a nice map! 
This URL Might 
What is the "proper" method to select the plasma gun?

I bound impulse 9 to a key and unwittingly it kept giving me full ammo as I played every time I selected it. 
you're actually not aware that impulse 9 is the give all cheat in 99% of all Q1 mods? Bind impulse 255 to another key (hint: Q) and see what happens ... 
Plasma Gun 
I always use the "changeweapon" key to switch to plasma or any other weapon that uses a different impulse besides 1-8. Much easier I think. 
Mouse Wheel Up = Change Weapon... 
so is impulse 12 the PG? i.e.

"bind 9 impulse 12"

would work?

you're actually not aware that impulse 9 is the give all cheat in 99% of all Q1 mods?

Sure, but Quoth is a mod can define that itself.

Maybe in Quoth 2 some impulse will be dedicated to selecting the plasma gun, as it seems that it is only available using impulse 10/12. :(

For horde maps, I prefer being able to press, say, 5 for the SNG and so on to choose a particular weapon. 
Baker: Impulse 250 will set the PG directly, see Quoth docs.

Ricky: I found a problem with your map; when you use the fog command, you forgot to add the newline "\n" at the end of the message. This may cause strange effects when passing those areas, e.g. player movements might not work properly.

Preach: The above important info is also missing in the Quoth docs for trigger_command etc. 
In the demos you uploaded, the total killcount is wrong in the later demos (328/352, should be 306), do you know why that happened? I tried to reproduce it both in my NehQuake and TyrQuake using a similar savegame/demo handling but couldn't.

Also, did the engine crash during the demos? You died once without getting an obituary. 
Excellent Base map indeed, Ricky! It was nicely built and textured well. It could have used a teleport or two to assist with backtracking for those of us who fell in the laser machinery room :) Good surprises and no nasty ambushes like your last map ;) Looking forward to your next map... 
Quoth/Engine Idea 
Couldn't something be put in worldspawn or somewhere that allows an engine to auto-detect a Quoth map and then, say, an engine like FitzQuake could be modified to automatically switch gamedirs to Quoth?

Some of these more recent Quoth maps really use the extra characters/powerups/etc very effectively, but every Quoth map is somewhat of a pain due to the command line and it seems like it is not always made clear (this map, the one JPL made with "too many" Bobs) that a map requires Quoth (I tried to play it without Quoth at first).

this map, the one JPL made with "too many" Bobs (...) I tried to play it without Quoth at first

It is title Slime Refinery Complex (SRC)... and everybody should read the txt companion file before playing any map :P

Anyway, it is a good idea that could be extended to any mod, and for such particular query, as example for Quoth, you should ask directly to Quoth team (Preach, Kell, necros,...) and to metlslime who is fitzQuake owner. 
Monster count - I was gonna ask about that. One of my testers got the same thing, but I tested it a few more times and got 306/306...?

AguirRe - I was unaware of the \n thing, allthough I have seen it in a few .map files, wandered what it does. Can you use the same syntax to create double line centerprint messages? Also, is there a way of making centerprint messages stay on the screen for longer?

OH also - "bind 9 impulse 250" = plasmagun working

Spirit - Trying not to shove my foot too far up my own ass for the lava thing... :-o 
Monster Count And Demo Weirdness 
Oops, I used Darkplaces (shame on me), just because it supports loading of multiple gamedirs. I think I made it use the normal Quake protocol for demos somewhen in the past but that might be an additional source for errors. The missing obituary might be due to a frustrated "disconnect, quit". No crashes. ;)

Baker: No good idea. You would be lucky to find one person to implement it to his engine. And looking at the poll at Quaddicted the two most used engines are a pity for Singleplayer anyways. If aguirRe's glquake and Fitzquake would support it, it would be great of course. But it would not help the "generic stoopid user" as he is using some other engine (with questionable SP capatibilities) anyways. Better preach people to read the manuals and learn to use their OS accordingly. 
No Wait 
I used tyrquake. Darkplaces was for some Warpspasm... 
tyr-glquake to be more specific. Compiled from a git snapshot ~07.12.2007 (a66c5fdc68c62bb3ff8e6c617a8df60843a06fc4). 
And looking at the poll at Quaddicted the two most used engines are a pity for Singleplayer

I could write a whole book on how that's the wrong attitude. I agree that the poll results were a little surprising, but it isn't that unexpected either.

Better preach people to read the manuals and learn to use their OS accordingly.

People don't want to read readmes, they wanna play.

If I decided to release the following, it would be downloaded countless times:

But I'd actually prefer to see if I can add this type of capability on the engine side. 
The player is going to tell the engine which map to load, then the engine reads it and sees what entities it's using. So it holds a cross-mod entity database and points at the correct folder if it exists? Message: "You need to install mod X" or "Loaded mod X".

It's not a bad idea but there's only so many good Q1 mods out there, and lots of guff. Also, I can imagine lots of stuff being shared between mods that could make it a headache - theres large differences between OUM and Zer, but lots of shared resources as well.

Typically problems happen when the mapper forgets to put 'use this' in the readme. I did the same with the documentation in my last pack, describing what to do but without those two simple words; underlined, in bold 82pt.

Anyhow, its sounds interesting; like an internal frontend. 
Mod Side Alternative: Keywords 
I suspect that having engines that automatically load the right mod is going to cause problems - would there be a way to override this if you really did want to play it in a different mod? As a softer option, how would a message that's printed to the player in-game if you aren't using the correct mod sound? The idea I have in mind works like this: You add a string key called "mod" to a trigger, and you fill it in with a keyword. The keyword doesn't have to correspond directly to the mod directory name(since you can't control what the user calls it), but let's call it "quoth" for sake of example.

Then the mod is programmed to ignore/remove any triggers which have a keyword corresponding to a mod they handle correctly. In our example, a trigger with "mod" "quoth" would be removed when we load the map in quoth. Then you just make sure the trigger has a "message" key saying "You need the QUOTH mod to play this map", and put the trigger over the spawnpoint. Of course, since the id progs(and all mods to date, but never mind that) doesn't check for "mod", it'll load the trigger and so display the message.

Since the trigger functions in the usual way, you could use it to trap the player somehow or make the map totally unplayable, although I wouldn't recommend that. If it's a soft option like a text warning then it doesn't even matter if mods give false positives. For instance a map that just uses entities from the current version of quoth but also adds a keyword trigger to warn people. If run in the second release of quoth(with this hypothetical system added) there would be no warning message at all, in the older release there would be a warning but it could be safely ignored.

A mod wouldn't be limited to a single keyword that it responded to, like for instance subsequent versions of quoth might support "quoth3" and "quoth", the former indicating you need features from the 3rd version. You could even add a key called "id1" that warns when you load the map in a mod that's not backwards compatible - although the problem is that would also set off the warning in the id1 mod, so probably not a good idea. Since this is mostly an issue for mappers, as long as future mapper-targeted mods practised this it could work. It'd even be ok as a standalone quoth feature not adopted in any other mod, but standards are always good things. 
People don't want to read readmes, they wanna play.

True, but if it doesn't work when they're installing/running it wrong, they have no one to blame but themselves. I don't see how adding a few words to a command line makes running the map a pain in any way. 
..those who did read the readme will have seen the note at the top saying about using an engine which supports coloured lighting, and joequake users typing "loadsky tramonto" - I was very worried about the player seeing the level with white light and normal sky and then thinking it looked shitty. I should have just added another line saying "RUNS IN QUOTH", maybe even with the address of the Quoth homepage...


BTW - I like joequake plenty, but why did they have to be different with the F@*&%ng "sky" key!!?!? 
Newlines in centerprints; probably, I don't know, try it.

Longer centerprints; scr_centertime I think, but in Fitz and my engines they can be logged to console, so you never have to worry about this again. See readmes for details.

Btw, I noticed the unusual and neat trick with the lava pool in the arena being slime in Normal/Easy, I don't think I've seen that before :) 
Yeah - Slime And Lava 
Doesnt hurt!!!

Fucking func_walled lava/slime doesnt hurt! If I had realised I would have put a trigger hurt in!

Its in spirits demo - quite funny but a SHAME :(

Oh well... 
I Think It's 
perfect as it is; it's for decoration. This arena doesn't need any more damage than there already is. Also, with a trigger_hurt on the floor, the monsters would probably kill themselves soon enough ...

And if you haven't noticed already, JoeQ doesn't support the fog command. It uses the Nehahra syntax and only when the -nehahra option is enabled.

Some other engines (e.g. Tomaz) don't even have the same fog concept, which would render the parameters meaningless. 
Oh Yeah - Almost Forgot; 

This map has l00ts of scope for speed-demos. With the early GL + bridges holding back progression to GK + possibility of Grenade Jumping to a pentegram => shave off l00ts of time!

Also has anyone beat my skill 2 time of 33 mins or even post a skill 3 demo?

(I love watching peoples demo's :P) 
I forgot to mention:

Damn you are progressing nice and fast!

I just hope you will do non-base maps too. ;P 
Very Nice Map 
Yes, this was more enjoyable than the last one, though I shouldn't have played on hard. Some of the ambushes were just wtf with vores and fiends silently spawning in my back. Fairly frequent Vore + Voreling gang and similar nasty encounters were a bit questionable too. A few times I almost ran out of ammo and health but it always somehow worked out in the last moment. The secrets (found all of them right away, nice) really came in handy, except for the Pentagram, which I wasted because I got lost in search of one of the key doors. Some signs/arrows would have been good. DBS against Gugs is tricky..

Nice architeture and texture work. I'm surprised you got all the details in without exceeding the limits. The Wolf3D-grade lava texture sucked though. The shattered muh_bad was nice, fog and polyps = awesome. The dogs were cool too. Some of the door triggers made beep sounds. Boring intermission persective - next time add several showing some cool parts of the map. 
@ Vigil 
I don't see how adding a few words to a command line makes running the map a pain in any way.

I understand your perspective. It is not difficult. 
I beta tested!!! but didn�t play the final release becouse i got my eyes fuckedup :\ hope to play as soon as i�m perfectly ok! but from what i�ve saw during beta... this one is real fucking good real nice brushwork and gameplay fun and balance enjoy it a lot on hard :)

As other people said u�ve realy improved a lot... real LOT!!! i�m already a noob at your maps :) maby i should give more time in mapping :\ but life eat me!!!

hope to see more from you my friend!!! and i will post a proper hard demo when my eyes are better to play :\ becouse now i�m realy fuckedup... 
This was great! Also, I had fun playing it. Although I apparently missed 3 secrets and 30 monsters.

Nice base texturing, I appreciate a nice clean base. 
Unlike The Last One... 
...this one is worth commenting on.

1. Loved the solid architecture, nice angles on supports of all kind, grand in places but tight in one would expect in a base. Excellent sense of place (the skybox and fairly consistent texture use really helped with this too).
2. Progression was well thought out until I had to return to the previously contained button in the SK room. Luckily I had triggered the message earlier so it eventually came back to me. otherwise I would've quit out at that stage.
3. The underground section with the rock work and then Kell's texture set was magnificent.
4. Quake started to judder when approaching the GK area. With my machine, the only time this has happened in the past was in certain places on Hrimfaxi's woefully vis-blocked first release. You may have taken qbsp/vis out for dinner and a drink since your last effort, but you have yet to consumate the union. Keep at it though!
5. I played on "normal" and enjoyed most of the gameplay, you really do understand the Quoth baddies on this skill level...far better than I do. Regardless, gameplay became increasingly unbalanced in the final stages.
6. Yeah, this is a base level worth playing/exploring. Grand, fresh, unbalanced but mostly just solid fun.

Oh Yeah 
Took me 10 minutes to find the gold key door. 
Re: Monster Counts 
I also experienced inflated monster counts - 358 on my first run through, and 328 on my second. After some investigating, it seems that whenever I save a game, then load it, the count goes up. Until that point, the total monster count displayed is correct.

However, opening the .sav in Wordpad reveals that the total_monsters global was already at the increased value when I saved, even though the count in the status bar was still 306.

I was able to easily reproduce this in aguirRe's engine (neh v3.08) - just killed ~25 monsters, saved, then loaded: total_monsters jumped to 311. Probably a bug in the spawning code of Quoth? 
I did all testing in my own bug-fixed Quoth progs, I'll test using the original also. It might be the horde-spawning that causes the killcount errors, I think I've fixed several of those. 
I get the impression (from a brief look) that this is rather different in Quoth. 
Oh Yes 
plenty of killcount errors here, already in the 2nd room where some dogs are horde_spawned.

This explains Spirit's demo issues. If you feel it's a problem, use the Warp progs instead. 
Thanks People!! 
Its really nice to hear some good comments for a change - also some very usefull constructive criticism, tips and pointers! Thanks for the feedback!

Still waiting for a NH uber-quick demo! >;-)

Trinca - What happened to your eyes? 
why doesnt "bind 9 impulse 250" work in fitz?
To select the Plasmagun I mean, by pressing "9" on keyboard. The console just quotes me usage instructions when I type this... 
Oh - So The Signon Buffer Dem00n Then :P? 
Would you say that the sign00n buffer thingy is killing the correct killcount?
Predicted - Level wouldnt load if too close to limit
Actual - Killcount f@cked when using savegames :-/

Signon buffer - predicted SOLUTION ?

Darkplaces engine - a wonder if using DP will fix killcount/savegames bug? 
You need to type it as

bind 9 "impulse 250"

including the quotes. Otherwise you end up binding the key to impulse without the number. Probably worth added to the config.cfg file. Do people feel that a more natural, single word console command for selecting the plasma gun, something like weapon_plasma, would be worth adding to quoth2? 
Thats 2 Words 
How about


I like it - like:




Or: How about

I don't think that's so necessary, tbh. You only add it to your config once. 
No engine can correct this progs bug, it doesn't even care what's dead or not. And the engine signon buffer limitation has nothing to do with it either, you can't load the map if that's exceeded. 
no idear RickyT23 they are all red :\ going to doctor tonight... to see what it is! the pharmacy gave me some stuff but since is not working properly will go to doctor today 
Great Map! 
This is really a improvement over your last map.
Architecture was good and strong, really nice brushwork. Very good use of textures and good ligtning.

Played it on hard and found it a bit unballanced, had to godmode near the end. 8-)
Had some wrong monstercount as well, but now we know why! 8-)

Hope to see some maps from you that isn't a base map but medieval or runic.

Keep them coming! 
I dunno guys, I'm not much on readme's but it was pretty plain - put the maps in your quoth directory and use fitzquake.

Great map. Damm it oozed with eye candy. Everything was neat and tidy. Even the boxes looked good. I guess I didn't play your first map or don't remember it but I try to play them all.
When I saw big map, 350 monsters, I didn't think I would like it. I was wrong. Congrats 
Just Finished This... 
too tired to say much... nice work. this is a solid release. I was hurt a little bit by not finding the plasma gun until later exploration. I guess this was my own fault for not trying all routes, though. 
Great Work Ricky! 
As I betatested this level I was rather quick impressed by the precious texture and brush work. I was amazed by the large scale the map had, as well as the straight lined subdiveded parts. The way the game enfolds is good, small amounts of monsters in cascade with some though hard fights.

The way you constructed the two marine bases in each other with the cave part was something that impressed me.
The feeling of a once excisting mine bridge, caught in a missile debree.
Really liked the hydraulic lightning session.

And again... not finished playing this release,
but sureley a winner to me. 
Kascam Demo 
I've experimented lately with an old botcam feature called Kascam, e.g. included in the Omicron bots. The botcam will automatically produce a "recammed" version if you use it for recording demos. I've now made a demo of this map on Hard in god mode, with Kascam operating the camera: .

The demo is in std Q1 protocol 15 format, but due to an oversight of mine it requires 4096 edicts support, which not all engines have. Any of my engines, Fitz (if you up the edict limit), DP and possibly others will do, but e.g. JoeQ won't (limited to 2048). Sorry about this.

You'll first see the Kascam client idling for a while, waiting for me to come in and then the action should begin. The intention of the demo is to show off the Kascam feature in this big and monster dense map. I hope you'll like it! 
Finally Played It... 
... and I liked it a lot.

I will not list what others said, as I agree with them: globally it is visible you made a lot of effort on brushwork. I think also gameplay could have been refined, it is quite hard sometimes to survive to spawning hordes, except if you know what will happen.. Nothing special concerning lightning effects..

Anyway, I had a good moment of fun, and I will look forward your next release ;)

Keep it up !! 
Great Map 
I played it with the telejano engine and quoth mod. It played perfectly with no bugs or problems. I played on the hardest level and saved frequently. It was a BLAST. I loved it from the opening and didn't want it to end.
I prefer base maps, lots of secrets and lots of monsters. This map delivered. Cannot wait to play your next(hopefully, another base map please) map.
You Know ... 
This map is so good, how are you ever going to top it?

I played this on hard again, but this time binding impulse 250 to 9 ;)

It was hard. But I like hard maps as hard. Very challenging, barely managed.

The play-testing and feedback from multiple beta-testers definitely shows.

Back in 2005 when Quoth first game out, I didn't like it at first. Possibly because I didn't have a familiarity with it or possibly because some of the earlier Quoth maps felt like they used Quoth characters for the sake of using them.

But the last several Quoth maps have been fantastic. Maybe every Quoth map released in 2007. The extra characters, powerups and functions add so much depth and diversity to maps and it sure beats seeing out-of-place Ogres in base maps like old school maps use. 
Great Map 
I quite liked the last one, but this one is markedly better in pretty much every area. No more confusion as to where to go, much more balanced gameplay thats a blast and very nice visuals, especially the texturing.

Lighting was perhaps the only area which could have been slightly better, although I didnt play with the lit file, just regular quake but it didnt quite suit the texturing in some spots.

Otherwise, great stuff. Keep it up. 
ok, finally had time to play properly!!! still think in hard is to hard!!! have a lot of fucking boring fights to many hard guys in same place, far away boring fights:\ always spawning stuff :\ errr hated!!!

Normal is more acceptable but still boring

Brushwork is outstanding!!! love it a lot!!!

Note! When i beta tested just had a version... so after silver key door didn�t had that part...

So my final note is brushwork is really amazing 9/10!!!

But game play still crappie in my opinion... spamming from behind with no warnings? errr this is in underground with kell textures!!! The vore... spawn behind us... man please put some messages... fucking unfair! I still hate your game play on hard... sorry fill me up with lots of frustration!

gameplay 5/10

anyway thks for this lovely map 
Nice map. Thanks. This is the most i've enjoyed a quoth map.. It was great finding the secret at the end and launching down on the two bosses (you can do some damage to those things up close with the shovel, too!). Must have re-played it that scene a dozen times on normal and hard..

The long corridor before the end was pretty tough.. probably a dozen goes. It's _alwyas_ cool finding cave levels beneath bases. Awesome when you blow up the entrance. I don't know how gameplay would be without finding the plasma gun straight away (and still hate looking at that penis model. Has anyone redone it?)

Taking home aguiRe's kascam demos to try out. 
hi, where do I find golden key please? somewhere in the underground room with ceiling laser-shooters? I gave up searching after 15 minutes... Good to have so many plasma clips, I didnt have to save my ammo. Most of the corridors and rooms look superBly. 
The Gold Key Is Over A Bridge 
When you make your way back out of the underground area and re-enter the part of the map at the top of the large outside staircase, procede past the top of the stairs round to the room where you originally found the silver key. Here a button has been uncovered. Press the button to extend the bridge over to the Gold Key Room. Carry on through the Silver Key Room, out the door you should be in the area where you found the Nailgun, you can either turn right or cross the room to the Gold Key Door. Turn right, then right again, onto the area where the first enforcer was stood of the whole level! You should now see a fully extended bridge allowing you to cross to the Gold Key Room Area - shoot soldiers, go down lift, empty the 'Arena' area of monsters - this unlocks a lift which takes you up to the Gold Key Room - Key is at the top of this lift... 
Found that already, thanks for description though. Must have missed the button in Silver Key Room during my first attempt to beat your level. The underground complex near the end (Arena area as you call it) is brilliant and tough to survive, now I know I HAVE TO save my plasma ammo clips. It was fun to empty your level :). I like the way Quoth monsters were included. Plus you got one bonus point from me for the titlename. 
But Map Is Realy Impresive!!! 
RickyT23 dont be mad with me ;) is just my opinion... maby i�m a fucking noob... but i think you use to many heavy monsters that slow the gameplay a lot!!! i use to do that also... but in brushwork i�m miles from you... keep it up! one of these days i might finish on hard... but honestly i get borred after a wile :( 
Great Map 
I played it today and it's really impressive and I enjoyed it a lot, though it was a bit hard on skill2 (I died several times). A lot better than sick base. 
Nightmare, 100% - 27 Mins 
Nightmare is skill 2 or 3 please? 100% kills or secrets? How many secrets? 
Is skill 3 and a 100% run means all secrets found and monsters killed. 
Getting Caught Up On SPQ1 2007 
I finished on Hard skill and this is a meaty romp. It's a struggle for the first fifth or so and then feels more balanced as weapons are gathered and supplies appear in greater supply.

This huge map really feels like Quake 2 and not SPQ1 in looks and gameplay. That's good BTW. Coloured lights are appropriate and the map looks good with a unique style. It's quality. I only thought the one lava tex deep below was ugly and I spotted a few minor misalignments but nothing to detract from enjoying this sprawling - multi-chaptered level. There were some cool light FX near the underground generator. The caves were well built too.

I found all 6 secrets on my own but about 4 were found after I cleared the map - very nice variety and all were fair and satisfying to find in such a big map.

Nice map - hoping to play more. 
Finally got around to playing this properly in Quoth. Skill 2, knew the map layout, and had got 1/2 way through on Quoth previously.

Pretty tough map all the way I found. Not unbalanced but just tough. Got me thinking about gameplay a bit, because sometimes it felt like it was straying from the realms of fun into the realms of gruelling. Like Warpspasm it has sodding loads of monsters, although there's never too much at any one point. The sheer numbers might be part of the issue, it's a lot of gameplay to get through in one go.

I did have issues with ammo (given I knew what was coming up, also knew the Quad and nail runs, and am fairly cautious, I think it might be a fair point...). Just felt - even towards the end - that I often got too much into the red, especially in the weaker ammos. Which never feels that encouraging. Partly I think this is due to the number of "ammo-sink" Quoth monsters (rocketeers - quite a few shells for little reward; grenade enforcers - need to take em down from a distance; drones - suck up a LOT of ammo with their dodging; vorelings - easy to waste stuff on).

Thing is, in a map this size, when you end up getting the more hardcore weapons (SNG, RL, anything cells), chucking in more ammo in general can make it too easy due to the ease of use of heavy weapons. Although in this map, I was often using plasma because I'd run out of shells!!

So I thought of two options that would have helped the ammo situation:

Firstly have a few more "easier" secrets with just standard supplies in. Thus allowing a struggling player to stop, work back and hopefully find something to help out, but also allowing others to blast through.

Secondly have additional "innappropriate" ammo supplies next to some combats. For example, throw in some rockets near a load of grunts - the player might be tempted to make that combat easier but will lose the ammo drops. Or shells next to Vores, giving the choice of a harder combat or an easier one. Hmmm I'm not explaining it so well. I guess I'm thinking of a situation where there is more ammo around, but it's not just shells (useful to bulk supplies without making things too easy, but boring!!), but nor is it so the player can rely on the more powerful weapons...

BTW, it was a good map. Impressive all round. And great having the underground bit in, well themed. I think some areas could do with more details though, to match the rest. 
I Know What You Mean 
Quoth monsters in general are tougher health-wise than the standards, the only exception being Drole - Shambler.

It's the sort of thing that couldn't be modified (in Quoth2, say) because it'd unbalance too many existing maps.

But consider the Dog compared to the Voreling and the fact that the Voreling has its additional hiding on the ceiling behavior. They're both fun to kill but if you'd never played the game before and came up against one and then the other the difference in balance would be much more obvious than to a veteran Quaker. 
Thanks Shambler!! 
You make a very inciteful point (<=if that aint how you spell "inciteful" I give up!). It is hard for me to judge how a player is going to react to a map when playing it for the first time!! I mean christ - the first time a I played The Bile Plant, I died repeatedly, and that was on normal skill!!! I still enjoyed the map though, and progressing through is was still rewarding, due to the fantastic exploration factor of such a well spread out map!

Some of my testing was done by Sielwolf, who still claimed the map was too easy, and also too much combat always coming from the front, which is why I put some nasty ambushes in...
That guy is REALLY good at Quake. He sent me a couple of demos for the Sickbase, both NH, one from the original 'cut' and one from the 'current' version, and to be frank, the guy's a FUCKING MACHINE!!! Watching the demos made me feel SICK!!! He told me not to post them on func... :-(

I still have them tho ;-)

Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!!

Atleast I can do it on NIGHTMARE, which is more than could be said for anyone else it would seem :(

If you ever play on skill 1, you would notice less of the Quoth human enemies, and more enforcers and grunts instead. Also a lower overall monster count! It still seems quite hard though!

I dunno... I do want people to have FUN! I am also very wary of making it too easy, just read the posts for Deja Vu, and you'll see why!! With this map I tried to make sure that there was a fair space to maneouvre atleast!!

I feel if I made it a bit easier, I would have gotten more demos to watch!

As for the point about the details in the map being more in some areas and less in others - well I could have put more details in, but it wouldnt have run in Fitzquake - yes, sorry guys but this level is RIGHT ON a few engine limits, literally two more Marksurfaces and I would be over the limit of 30000-odd!!! I already used all of my precache models too, so using any more func_walls was out of the question!

Don Know About Skill 2/3 
but I thought skill 1 was quite well done. 
Played this on S2 and while it was pretty difficult (I died maybe twice) I didn't have any bigger problems with ammo. However, due to some strange bug I was suddenly unable to switch to Plasma (using "next weapon"). So I had to run through some 20-30 enemies without killing any before walking through the GK door where I was able to find some ammo. After this, I was able to choose Plasma again. Strange. 
ye i agree Quoth monsters made map to hard... 
Yeah it is a difficult balancing act:

Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!!

This is the problem, as Quake goes on, the general skill level of Quakers goes up but also, I think, gets stretched. There are still people who play on Easy, I think, and definitely people who play on Normal. As well as people who play on Hard and Nightmare (Nightmare is a fucking duff skill anyway though isn't it). Catering too all tastes, not easy. Compared to maps throughout Quake history, one needs to very gradually increase the skill level, but maintain enough expanse of skill settings to be accessible to almost all players. But then there's only 3 real skills. It's like:

Original Quake skill - nu skill skill
0 - n/a
1 - n/a
2 - 0
n/a - 1
n/a - 2

Basically playing original Id maps on Hard is the equivalent of most modern maps on Easy, maybe. Or maybe there is only one step difference, but there definitely is a difference and so there should be due to that skill increase and thus player demands.

The problem being, there simply aren't enough higher skills for people like Siewolf etc. So the skills get compressed into each other. Nu-skill 2 might cover old-skill 3 & 4 (ignoring nightmare). Which is a fairly broad band, bit too easy for Sielwolf, a bit too hard for Shambler. I play on Skill 2 in general and I'd say 80-90% of the time that works and is just right (or like Kell's map a bit easy). Sometimes it's a bit too hard, but then if I was on skill 1, it would be a bit too easy for most of the time.

This is partly why I'm thinking of solutions that enable players to deal with the tougher skill without making it too easy for hardcore players. Plenty of weaker ammo (allowing players to resort to a cautious grind approach) is the obvious option but that's only shells really. Maybe extra GA too. I think more low-reward secrets are also a good idea, hardcore players don't need to put the effort into finding them, but lesser players can hunt them down if needed.

Or someone needs code skills 3(not Nightmare),4,5 in... 
Lol ! 
Some good points. Spreading the difficulty range seems to be more inclusive, but might end up with gaps in between difficulty levels so it's not a cure-all.

For quake, maybe we could implement some sort of progs.dat feature that used fractional skill levels to add additional balance. Like, if you play on skill 1.5, it will use skill 1 spawns, but degrade the health packs by 10% or increase monster attack damage by 10% or something.

Also, some additional ideas are discussed in the "difficulty tuning" thread: 
There I Was.... 
Just thinking that maybe there should be a topic about this sort of thing ;). 
Hehe - at the end of the day, listening to peoples impressions and opinions of my maps makes me think about how I can improve them.

Deja Vu - made me think about basic scale and gameplay. People said it was OK, but a bit too easy and no themed/detailed enough, but fun nevertheless...

Sickbase - Too hard man!! Detailed enough (or better scale/detail/theme than DejaVu but gameplay was flawed by being too difficult. Also engine limits were disregarded...

TheHand - Much better, maybe a bit too hard (but not impossible), people obviously ENJOYED it, but now I know that making a level tough doesnt necessarily mean that gameplay is GOOD.

Next level - I will try and follow the formula for FUN a bit more closely. I like the idea of having more balanced gameplay with spread-out high end enemies in a controlled manner, making sure fights are fair...

...I dunno - fun is the theme to follow really.

Im sticking to Base maps tho!! I have something on the go with doom3 tex, diakatana wad "#1" and IKbase!! "IKDoom"?

It's all good! Welcome aboard. You're making a strong mark on the mapping scene already both with the vision and impressiveness of your maps, and your general improvements in quality over a few maps. Progress...

I do think The Hand had quite a lot of good gameplay moments. A few I can remember:

Mixed base enemies together - makes you think about what you use, i.e. gotta take down rocketeers but powerful ammo will gib them or be wasted on nearby lighter enemy.

Vores + vorelings - well themed and requires a bit of tactics.

Some monsters (Fiends?) appearing behind you - as long as it's not overused (which it wasn't), good for keeping players on their toes.

Corridors with monsters appearing on both sides - forces fast decisions and fast shooting.

Quad / nail runs - rockage! And these ones were good - I think what made them good is you could get a real good run first attempt with the powerups. I think it can be good to have a little bit of health or something before the start of run just in case.

Giving the player powerful weapons but having proper powerful enemy to soak them up - thinking of the underground lab thing here, it's good to through in a bit of that too...

Mmmmm Quake :). 
Agree with /\ that.

You're doing alot in a short time and it's nice to see in this old game that's still better than 90% of the new crap.

But I'd say that spreading the difficulty isn't so important, it's not too much to expect a player to change their playing style in order to play your map, as long as it's fun to play. 
RickyT23 gameplay in "The hand" map is not that hard... the major problem is that have to many strong monsters... and make gameplay in my opinion bored.

next time this addivice!!!

lots of easy monsters and vores = lots of fun :) :p

kill then bastards with vore balls and stuff like that :)

please keep it up you are becoming a great mapper real fast. 
I'd like to be a little late to say, good map. I enjoyed the quad run where you move up the stairs, that was pure fun. The map was a bit long for my taste, but that's just my taste. I thought some rooms and corridors were a bit bigger than they needed to be. The map ran noticeably slower than other "spacious" maps (breakfast for example.)

I too look forward to your next map. 
VERY Impressive 
..considering you're a relatively new mapper (at least i'm assuming? i don't recall playing anything by you before the few that have been put up on here..)

i thought the balance was spot on (skill 1) - gradually escalated from easy to hard, never got unfair yet always kept me on my toes, and offered plenty of variety in combat, with the quoth monsters used to good effect. i died twice; once on the first gug encounter (which was avoidable with better tactics the 2nd time round) and once due to a particularly unfortunate quad-run/RL/polyp combination (evile weapon placement right there.. had to admire it though)

my only gripe was the button that releases the bridge to the gold key area - i ended up backtracking through the whole map twice before giving up and quitting, and it wasn't until reading the comments on here that i even acknowledged it. it's easy to see, but i'd thought i'd already pressed it; it wasn't obvious that it was unpressed, nor that it operated the bridge (which was a few rooms away)

but yeah, that aside i had a hell of a blast playing this. in addition, the brushwork was great; detailing mostly solid (few bland areas but nothing ugly) and the lighting was nicely executed. i'm astounded it took you only 8 weeks to come up with such a large-scale & well-rounded map. excellent stuff mr, look forward to your future projects =) 
Finally Played This! 
First play demo here:

I die after 20 odd minutes, 164/236 3/6.

Lots of fun :) 
Great Demo 
You sure missed the NG early on, but still managed very well! 
This Reminds Me 
that I actually forgot to post my first run demo(s). Divided in two parts because I died in the lava once :/
skill 1 
You did well, mwh, but I was yelling at my screen at several points "The Nailgun is RIGHT THERE!!"

It would have come in handy for you!

Ankh: Havent watched yet, but Im gonna soon. :D 
Oh Yeah, The Ng 
Yeah, I was pretty aware that I must have missed the NG -- for example when I found the secret with 100 nails in and had 200 nails before I even got to the nail box outside :) But I was aware (hoping) that people would watch the demo and thought that a 5 minute hunt for it would have been pretty boring.

I was also a bit more aggressive in places than I might otherwise have been, for the same reason.

The best bit was that when I reloaded and finished the demo after that death (and died quite a few times, actually) the intermission screen I got was pointed squarely at the NG :) 
Weird Bug In Demo Playback 
I find that when watching ankhs demos that theres a crash whenever a Bob is encountered. Its when the bob dodges to the side, I think. It happens in FitzQuake. I remember it happening when I watched some of my beta testing demos that people sent me. Which engine did you use, Ankh? Was it JoeQuake? Isnt that a TomazQuake engine? I remember Trincas demos did it too, and some others I think. Trinca recorded his in JoeQuake.

It gives the console message:

HostError: Cl_ParseServerMessage: Illegible Server Message

And crashes to the console, in Fitz.

I wander why? 
You Can Either 
watch the demo in a Nehahra-enabled engine like one of mine, or convert it using my ConvDem utility to std protocol 15. Then you can watch it in any engine.

Please see readme for details. 
The demos were recorded in Joequake.
I have replayed your map on skill 2 and after extending the bridge I had not enough ammo to proceed further. I think that in big maps each big area or part of the map should contain sufficient supplies to beat that particular part of the map.
Maybe it was your choice for the hard skill to force the player to preserve the ammo trough the whole map but it is something the player doesn't know at the start. 
"Illegible Server Message" indicates that the demo was recorded in a nonstandard protocol. There are a number of engines (such as nehahra) that have a protocol that says it's protocol 15, but has extra stuff added. Since the demo says it's 15, fitzquake will start to play it, and then only fail the first time it gets a message it doesn't understand.

As aguirre says, his convdem tool can process demos to be unmodified protocol 15. 
Aaahhh - I See !! 
Thanks for the info AguirRe/Metlslime. I was unaware of the idea of there being different demo versions (or if I was ever aware I must have quickly forgotten)

Ankh: I agree skill 2 is pretty tough. Next map will be fairer ;-P 
Thanks Ricky. Was much fun. Finished in 25 min. Missed half the secrets and 1 monster. I did not find medium too hard at all. I prolly should have played it in hard but warpspasm ruined me. I may never pick door #3 again. 
Skill 2 
should be tough, that's the whole point of it :p 
Analised a lot of us senseless I think. 
I thought it was just a Quake pack.

Very easy, easy, normal, hard, nightmare and with -/+ Quoth enemies. Could have been integrated better I suppose, but if I warn in the readme of the difficulty grade you can't really complain if you approach it the same as any other. Most players wouldn't even think of playing Nehahra on hard.

Maybe the thing is that when every single pack ever made says 'this is an evil pack' you stop believing it. 
gave me the opposite reaction, its in my top 5 quake packs. I loved it on medium. 
"Just A Quake Pack" 
Have you forgotten how many monsters you put in?? ;)

There's nothing "just a ..." about it! 
I like WarpSpasm. I mean I like skill2. I was playing Warpd last night on skill2. Very hard. Kept running out of ammo. I guess you need to find the secrets. Also, I guess you need to make your ammo count. If I wanted to have an easier time I would play skill 1, but it kinda takes the challenge out really, doesnt it?

FYI I go 220-odd monsters in, and gave up.

Doesnt mean I'm not gonna try again tho. It means that I AM!! :-D 
I realised after release that warpd just wasn't finished enough and that I should have been alot more generous on the ammo, and details. It was basically me and Sielwolf playtesting it - he almost never puts a foot wrong even on the most difficult maps and I knew where everything was.

For warpd ammo-wise you should try and cause as many enemies as possible to leap into the void, find as many secrets as you can (there's a practically invisible one near the second silver key / above the two vores) and snatch every single enforcer backpack for the plasmagun. Also, make sure to switch between weapons a fair bit to try and balence against the ammo that you're finding.

That's the kind of underhanded tactics I was balancing for - I also managed to beat Xaero on nightmare just by taking advantage of the bad AI. And I've sent that fucking gnome from episode 2 into outer space:

But I didn't get the achievement - got a load of screenshots but my Steam id didn't update to include "Little Rocket Man". Fuckers. 
Oh Yeah 
And warpd has 666 monsters on hard. It was interesting working within a set limit of enemies. I'm not advocating filling the map just for the sake of it, but maybe as a speed or turtle mapping event it could be good - ~10 monsters only, for example. 
You probably would have had a hard time finding playtesters for the whole thing. 
I Pretty Much Retreated To A Cave 
Sending out the odd email or beta update as time passed, building the thing. I was using every spare minute to map - lunchtimes, after work, at home, weekends etc.

I had a good base to work from with aguirRe and Sielwolf - both experts in what they do in the Quake sphere.

A wider playtesting base would have helped, but the volume of mapping there made it a daunting prospect. 
I like Sielwolf, but he's frighteningly good at Quake. I mean I dont really want to look the gift-horse in the mouth here, but if he say that the map is a "nice challenge" it probably means that most people would find it "far to tough"

Hehe - he has posted demos of Warpd in the WARP thread, right?

We should really move this discussion there... 
Sorry for being an ass, could you please upload both sickbase demos to the shub-hub, I lost them myself (serves me right I guess).

Thanks for the kind words :() dunno what else to say. 
Played this.

Numerous nice things!
The FPS was a bit low in the room that had lots of lava down and had that spinning yellow circle thing. Pretty near end.

There were lots of varied architecture things with details and it wasn't the same throughout, and I liked how the light made it feel so different inside and outside. And I didn't get so badly lost as with many maps. Either. The bridge button could have been a bit more obvious perhaps.

I also loved the end how it was so "sense of awe" that you could actually break outside.

I made a demo too, first play, skill 1: 
Been playing this today and come across an error, which I've recieved a few times. Pretty far into the map when you step onto the 'teleporter', it'll blow up but then FitzQuake will hang, then quit the map. The following error is then displayed in the console:

Host_Error: Program Error 
OK, Dont Know... 
...I've never had that one before!

Erm, I always tested in Fitz too! OK, so what operating system are you using? Cause if it's not windows then I wouldnt know.

The only really obvious thing I can think of is are you playing through Quoth? Some people didnt realise this was a Quoth map before and had problems (but not like the one you've described).

Maybe its an error between Quoth1 and Quoth2.

It could work in Quoth1 but not Quoth2, although I would assume otherwise, cause they assure us Quoth2 is backward compatible.

Anybody got a clue? 
Yeah, I'm running under Windows, and using Quoth 2. 
OK, Right - No Problem.... 
...well I just tried it in windows with Quoth2 and had the same bug!!

Preach ?!?!?

Temp Solution - Re-install Quoth1 and play under that. You'll have to make a new folder in your Quake directory called "Quoth1" or something, then run fitz with "-game quoth1"

That should fix the problem, but it's a temporary fix...

Thanks For Playing Though.... 
...and thanks for reporting this bug! :) 
I've figured out what's causing this bug - code that's designed to kill the player off when using the coop bomb is also shared by the info_bomb when it shouldn't be. I can't fix this right now as I'm away from the computer with the quoth source code. A patch for this problem will be issued later - which will also sort out the earthquake warnings. For now, to downgrade to quoth1 you don't even need to reistall to a new directory - you can rename pak1.pak temporarily to revert the change that causes the crash. 
Thanks Preach ! 
BTW: There also seems to be an incompatibility issue between Quoth1 and Quoth2 concerning the trigger code. I have a setup including info_notnull hacks (InitTrigger/multi_trigger) for a monster to fire which work in Quoth but are broken in 2. Though I'll have to investigate this further to pinpoint the exact cause. 
Now this is odd, unless I'm doing something wrong on my side...

I moved the PAK1 for Quoth2 out of the way so it's not found in the same folder. Upon loading my last save game I get the following console error:

Host_Error: ED_ParseEdict: parse error

And upon starting a new game by loading the map in the console, all of the monster respawns have already been triggered. 
You Might 
get a more informative error meesage using my engines. In any case, savegames might not be compatible even between two minor versions of the same progs, let alone two major ones.

This is just one of the prices for mixing up Quoth1/Quoth2 in the same directory. 
This is my first post here.
I've just played your thehand map. At least until the very end when I ran in the same problem like Quakis.
The setup : WinXP, JoeQuake , The Quoth folder where you said in readme to put the map files, the pak0 from Quoth1 and pak1 from Quoth2 (i supposed pak1 would come along with pak0, not in separate folder!!).
I loaded the savegame before the crash in darkplaces and fitzquake 0.8 and the same problem, it freezes a few seconds after touching the unstable slipgate. The only remarkable difference is that the screen doesnt shake in joequake at those quake moments.

Looks like i have to remove the pak1 also and play again, or noclip directly to that part of map and see what happens next :)

I was playing it in glorious 1280x1024, all eye candy on (excepting detailed textures that doesnt look that good for me), using lastest version of joequake (that loads directly the skybox), the coloured lighting is at its places, all ok. Man, i want to say that for me your map is not only big and interesting, but awesome in visual appareance, I liked it very much. In fact got excited in many moments :D
It remembers me of many newer games. The skybox and coloured lighting has their credits here (and too for their creators, Quoth's also).

Would it be awesome to make an episode of such beautiful maps... :P
Yes, I know, lots of work required :( 
Quoth 1 
I encountered the same bug while playing this map. Does anybody know where I could get just Quotj 1 to play through this? 
This Should Be Quoth1, But I Am Not Sure 
I think if you install quoth2 then remove all of the pak files except for pak0 then it may work...... (hopefully) 
No, I tried that. Gives a Parse error. 
This was patched in quoth 2.1, make sure you have the latest version - with a pak2 as well as a pak1. 
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