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Q1SP: Forwards Compatible
Hot on the heels of LTHSP2 "Backwards Compatible" comes the sequel "Forwards Compatible", only seven years later!

Basically I made this about three years ago now, and never got around to really finishing it up in a way I was happy with. Still, it's playable from start to finish, and has a couple of moments I think are kinda neat.

It's a rubicon-themed map, like LTHSP2, with a couple of twists. There's a .lit file for those that like them, I like to consider the lighting "quite tasteful" as coloured lighting goes, though replaying it it obvious that the lighting could have been a bit more moody.

Anyway, the .map and .qc source are included, so feel free to fiddle with it.

DOWNLOAD:
http://www.random-productions.co.uk/quake/back2forwards.zip
(3mb)

SCREENS:
http://www.random-productions.co.uk/quake/
(screens have come out quite dark)

LTHSP2 (for nostaliga value):
http://www.random-productions.co.uk/quake/lthsp.zi
Can I Be The First To Say... 
..."woot"? 
Dark 
 
Program Error Upon Startup 
Using AguiRe's latest glquake, I successfully load up the map, but after walking maybe a few steps I get a console error saying "PR_EnterFunction: Stack overflow (256, max = 255) host error: program error" and the map closes. Not sure what to make of it. 
Yep 
getting the same error as orl. 
Not Getting The Error In Fitzquake 
but the glass which works in aguire's engine is borked in fitz. 
Um 
pardon my french but HOLY FUCK man it's been a long time.

"Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in" 
 
I got a stack overflow 3 out of 5 times when first starting the map, in fitzquake.

Maybe the title is meant to indicate that the map is compatible with engines that haven't been released yet? 
Actually... 
it seems that you always eventually get one. Last attempt it took about 2 minutes. 
 
also crash for me a lot! 
Metl 
did you get the borked glass too? 
Ummm. 
Okay....maybe this was hasty??

LTH, fix up yo. 
 
ye LTH is want to smoke that grass in the map properly :) 
 
Hmm, I can play/finish this mod with Darkplaces (build 20071120) without any overflow problem. It only crashed once when I try to use noclip to roam around the map. 
Krashes 
with qrack aswell, and i had to create a subfolder maps first in the back2forwards dir. was that a feature or did i do something wrong?

looks nice though.

Fix! ;-) 
Nice One 
Seeing people having problems getting it to run as well as the presence of a dpextensions.qc, I played it in DP right away and it worked. (I also got a crash once, when trying to noclip). Unfortunately, the performance was fairly low - this is DP's fault, possibly because of the colored lighting.

The map itself was very nice. I liked the semi-nonlinear layout, the good use of colored lighting and the glass of course. Some areas were a bit too dark though. The doors could have been marked better too.
Good to see the light saber enforcers again, nice plants and reskinned monsters. I guess the balance is OK on skill 2 (the poor performance made it harder for me), except for the SK/fiend area which I of course entered without getting the nailgun first as recommended in the text. The SNG enforcer was too tough for me, in a dark room with low fps. I didn't find the secret and (thus?) missed 8 monsters.

Definitely a cool map, despite its "not properly finished" state which wasn't really evident. It had certain DOOM-vibe to it. 
Hopeful Fix 
The problem appears to be happening when the game can't decide if you're moving or stationary, and so switches between standing and moving frames until the stack overflows. I have a tentative fix, where you replace the bit of code

if(!self.velocity_x && !self.velocity_y)
{
...
}

with

if(!self.velocity_x)
{
if(!self.velocity_y)
{
...
}
}


These two are logically equivalent but are not executed the same in the engine. The former code will test both conditions even if the first fails. The latter exits early if the first condition fails. Why one causes the crash and the other doesn't, I'm not sure. But you can download a progs with just that change from here:
http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/ajd70/progsfix.zip
It seemed to help me, but I can't say it works for sure, as I don't quite understand what goes wrong.

Lots of nice touches in the map, like the wall mounted weapons and the grunts with biosuits on, really gave it a sense of place. Managed to blast through it without too much trouble, just about survived the silver key area safely, and got through with most of the kills, but without finding the secret. I didn't get access to hydroponics or the crew quarters, are both of them involved in the secret? 
 
Yes, Shambler, hasty. I'll post the fix in 2010, okay? :)

I only use darkplaces myself, and thus experienced no crashing. And I got pretty good performance on my shitty GF6200, though unsurprisingly I think I'm still using a DP build from 2004. 
 
Preach, cheers for the fix, I'll compile it in myself in a minute and re-upload.

As to the secret, I always thought that it was so alarmingly obvious that most people wouldn't really count it as a secret.

The "access denied" doors are purely in the spirit of rubicon and go nowhere. Just wanted to make the place feel a little bigger than it actually is. 
 
(new version uploaded) 
Hrm 
Hints:
-Create a maps folder and put the .bsp and .lit in there, heh.
-Try to run away from the spawnpoint at the beginning to avoid the crash.
-Kill every enemy you see, even if it is one you can easily avoid and could kill later on. You'll need it to proceed.
-Do not try to use the noclip function even if you don't actually noclip.

The SNG guy was evil indeed, even more because I couldn't get any "hit feedback" (playing Diablo at the moment and being stuck with some non-dying mofo there :P ).

It ran very badly in Darkplaces, a fine example that vis-blocking should not be ignored... (r_showtris 1 & r_showdisabledepthtest 1 is quite ugly.)

12:something minutes, 0/1 secrets, 87/90 monsters, skill 1. 
Oh I Am Late 
LTH: What version of Darkplaces do you use? It's written in the bottom right of the console.

I really loved the biosuit grunts! 
 
The new zip has the maps in the right place, don't believe I didn't do that to begin with.

Spirit, I am using 2003-06-07. My colour settings are:
Gamma - 1.25
Contrast - 1.125
Brightness - 0.05 
New Version Works Better 
The glass doesn't work in other engines (at least not out of the box) though.

Vis-blocking is ok, but the map seems to be only fastvis'd?! 
 
Took me nine minutes. I had no problems playing this with Fitzquake other than seeing bright blue textures instead of glass (I assume this is where I should have seen glass).
It played well but was maybe a bit too easy on medium. Maybe a few more tough combats and some more weapons would have done the trick. I didn't experience any major health losses until the SNG guy. Didn't die.

Here's a demo of my first playthrough:
http://www.mediafire.com/?fumtcx2uhne 
Thks ;) Hope To See More Before 2010 
LTH what can i say!!!

please more!!! enjoi it a lot!

there it goes my first run...

http://trinca.quaddicted.com/temp/lth.rar

wasn�t a hard map but was pretty cool to explore! love the demons ambush :)

feeaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr 
VIS! 
I was curious how a proper VIS would improve the fps and so I did (bspinfo -prt, then vis):

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5984/b2f000007tq1.jpg

Please please VIS it properly and update the zip again. It really needs it. :> 
 
In progress. 
 
Done. Trinca: I can't load your demo, dunno why.

Mikko: there was supposed to be a huge satellite dish in that room. I guess I didn't finish it! 
 
LTH maby becouse is second version... and you trying in last version of map... might not be conpatible 
 
or because you're using a super-ancient version of DP... 
So Is Iy Vised Properly Now? 
and btw, the glass works in aguire's engine. 
Testing A Q1 Map 
in DP doesn't say anything about how the map will work in a real Q1 engine. The only thing you prove is that it works in that precise alpha version of DP.

What ever happened to beta testing ...? 
Also 
the progs issue seems to be caused by some qcc compilation settings, recompiling it (without modification) in frik or fte makes it work without obvious problems.

That is, except missing skin warnings if you gib soldiers and a missing SK if you gib the enforcer that's supposed to drop it. Kill the enforcer gently ... 
I Like The Idea Of The Map 
I loaded it up and played some of it and it looks really cool. Gave it a beyond Quake feel in a good way.

/Likes transparent glass in maps 
LTH 
Nice maps, very good layour, nice details touch, good gameplay. I had a lot of fun playing it...

Keep it up !!

I can't wait for your next map :D 
Hah 
Well you had better be able to wait, like 7 years! 
Taking It Home To Play... 
...re: #32, indeed and not only wrt this release.

Think I'm going to have to fire up LTH_SP as well when I get home. None of them ever rated that well, but they were among the levels that inspired me to map. 
So... 
does the latest download have any fixes, like properly vised, fixed quakec? 
 
Yes indeed. 
 
LTH did u saw demo? or still not working? 
Is The Bsp 
built with tjunctions enabled this time (it wasn't before)? Some old qbsps require option -tjunc. Otherwise there are red sparkles all over the map. 
OMG, LTH!! 
Holy crap, it's been forever! Ran the map with DP -- and while I did dig the lighting and all, I've got one niggle -- the lights at the back end of the lift tubes need to be clipped, as idiots like me tend to get stuck under them. Gonna have to play again to find the secret, but it's good Quakey fun, buddy. Please don't take so long before your next release. 
Type "gamma .5" Before Taking Screenshots 
:) 
Well - I Had A Look At This... 
I thought it was pretty good - I liked the leaves and stuff - cool details for a Quake level!!! Also liked the coloured lighting and glass everywhere...

:D 
Hmmm. 
Don't have DP and I don't think I have FQ either. Played this in Aquire's Quake (which I have for some reason, not sure why, I think it improved engine limits without having any extra stuff in, anyway I'm sure I needed it for some previous release). And I think the progs.whatever didn't work or something. I got normal Quake monsters and weapons and not much else.

Ah well. Balls to custom engines. 
Shambler 
aguire's engine shouldnt have anyproblems with this, the progs only adds some custom monsters. did you place it right? the zip file for this map didnt exactly put everything in the right place. 
Shambler 
Try giving this its own directory, like quake/forwards and unzip the contents into that, i.e. treat it like a pakfile.

Then run $ENGINE -game forward and it should work.

This should have come as a pak file.

It seems no custom engine is needed except for the glass (either AguirRe's glquake or DP it seems) and the colored lighting (anything with .lit file support.) 
Interesting Map 
I liked the coloured lightning and the skybox. The glass worked fine with joequake. There were many nice details like the wall mounted weapons, computer panels or the plant section. The layout was nice, complicated and it felt like a real place. The difficulty on skill 2 could be a bit higher. The red enforcer at the end had really bad aim. It was enough to stand one step below him and he couln't hit you. Also you could have marked the doors better.
Overall a nice map and I enjoed it a lot. 
Played It 
I played through the original zip in Fitz and it crashed a lot but after replacing the progs with Preach's fix, the problem went away.

Not a bad map - played on skill 2 and it wasn't that hard (when it didn't crash pre patch).

I liked the gardens - very Unreal like - best leafy vegetation in a Quake map.

Some doors weren't obvious so I checked just about all panels. Coloured lighting was fine - Quake 2ish. Felt a bit non-linear which was good. No real setpieces but had that Rubicon vibe. Not sure if the glass was supposed to look like solid light blue but that's how it looked to me.

I got the secret by trick jumping (and I suck at that.) Is this the correct way?

A fine enough SP diversion. I remember LTH1 as being very hard by comparison. 
 
The glass worked fine with joequake

Which method is used in this map for the glass? The one Than posted?

bcuz it doesn't work in tyr-glquake, at least for me. 
Yeah... 
Of course I ran it in it's own seperate dir! 
 
Scragbait, yes, trickjumping is the intended method. Dunno if you can actually do anything useful with the quad once you've got it, but hey :P 
 
LTH saw demo or not? :p
i bunny pretty nice to quad 
LTH... 
Lots of cool stuff in this release: the glass, the new base baddies, the vegetation, the weapon models, etc. It still felt a bit short, though. I'd love to see a more expansive follow-up ;)

Two other things: the slime/sewer area seemed oddly placed - you went up from the first area to reach it - and the red nailgun guy at the end would always shoot the floor if I stood still. Maybe it was monster placement or a QC bug, I don't know.

BTW, a map in this style + Quoth 2 would positively rock!

Great job! 
Finally Played It 
I found it a bit confusing in the same way as JPL's Slime Refinery Complex. It's the amount of corridors, and the amount of niches that could be doors but aren't, which is probably in the textures.

The ammo closets were a good idea, really nice idea actually, but they could have been better marked. They looked just like all the other doors.

Reminded me a lot of the Quake2 jail levels, that one room with the walkway and a door on one end, a lift on the other seemed like a deja vu. The fiend cells also. It would have been nice if there had been items or secrets in the cells, anything. A reward.

At first I didn't kill the enforcer with the key, which confused me even more... I guess if you have monsters dropping keys, they should be minor bosses and they should be in the main trail of combat, or in a special location (the lab would have been the right place for this.) Why not give a message to the extent of "a monster has the key"?

The fiend on the examination table was a nice touch and sufficiently explained their presence, you could have expanded on this theme - larger cell blocks with different monsters.

The grunt/enforcer variations: They're good enough I guess. It's rather hard to imagine a base map without Quoth defenders/rocketeers or Hipnotic centroids nowadays, but I'm of course spoiled.

One thing I'd like to see in any base map would be civilians, like in Starcraft, that aren't armed and just give the impression that research is being done there. You would just have the option of mercilessly slaughtering them, or leaving them alone. That's something that Quake lacks. I think other FPS games have this.

I would have liked some more horde combat, too. There were traces of it like just after activating the two consoles, when the third door opens and monsters come out. I was expecting something more like "oh shit, now it's starting for real!" but the "army" was rather small. That would've been a good spot for a few dogs from all directions. What happened to dogs? I thought even the last man on earth would have a mutt by his side :-D dogs plz.

In general, more monsters would have been nice, in larger groups. Also, more 3D combat, like some enforcers on crates, others on a walkway, while dogs and grunts come at you from all sides.

A side effect of the limited monster choice was a lack of infighting, the lightsaber guys and normal enforcers just don't want to kill each other :-/

The SNG enforcer had a little too many HP compared to his comrades, much like early Quoth monsters.

Nice map though, glass didn't work for me, I liked the darkness in some areas, some rooms could have been taller/wider, no buttons? I must have shot most computers, would be nice if something happened... some areas, like the lab, the command centers and the final area were nice. The outside walkway, too.

I would have liked to see hydroponics and the main hangar...

Well. To sum it up, harder and more varied gameplay plz, and a clear route to follow with some optional sightseeing. Could.bsp does this rather nicely. Many people like nonlinear maps though.

The map could have used more playtesting. 
 
One thing I'd like to see in any base map would be civilians, like in Starcraft, that aren't armed and just give the impression that research is being done there. You would just have the option of mercilessly slaughtering them, or leaving them alone. That's something that Quake lacks. I think other FPS games have this.

Xmen TC had this a little bit -- guys with clipboards looking at computers that you could kill. 
Bleh ! 
I found it a bit confusing in the same way as JPL's Slime Refinery Complex. It's the amount of corridors, and the amount of niches that could be doors but aren't, which is probably in the textures.

Well, if you don't like corridors and complex interconnect: you will not like my next project :P 
Played It 
pretty solid but unremarkable stuff. A few nice otuches as people have mentioned icnluding glass and new monsters and plantation.

Colored lighting is good but I played with and without and without could have definitely used better lighting. I know its meant to be played with colored lighting but a little more effort should have been made so that it looked good in regular quake too. 
JPL 
I like SRC after getting to know it, but in the beginning it was confusing to me. The early Bobs were rather tough, too and stifled the flow a bit.

But I like it as a map, I didn't mean to put it down. It was a map that needed to grow on me for some time. ;-)

The problem with recognizing doors has to do with custom textures, in idbase you immediately know a door when you see one, in rubicon not always, because not many maps use it. I didn't play Doom3 and thus the textures weren't immediately familiar.

That's all, no offense or shit talk intended. 
Gb 
I didn't took your comments as offense: don't worry :) I admit easily that be aware of what is a door, or not, is not that obvious in SRC, while there are colored trims around the SK/GK doors... I just took these comments as a "don't do that again" for next maps... but concerning interconnects, you will not be deceived... ;) 
JPL 
Looking forward to it :-) 
Exit... 
Can one exit from Backwards Compatible into Forwards Compatible? 
Not Likely... 
They use a different codebase. the ond one doesn't have the code that makes they key work (both the throw and the keep after use), and the new code doesn't have the yellow nail enforcers. There's also the issue of making the trigger_changelevel point correctly, but that's minor...

So I finally tried it. Died more than a few times, but eventually got to the end. Didn't get the secret, but was able to see what it was. The fiends were a fairly major battle. I think that the point could've been made with just 6 fiends instead of 10 (I played skill 1), and ammo is very tight to take them all down, even for a packrat like me.

End boss was a welcome reminder of his old maps, even though it was very tough, until I realised that you could stand in a place where you couldn't be shot, but could kill it easily. 600 health is a bit much for it, though, but as there's only one, it's not too bad. Was a little disappointing to not see the nail enforcers return, though... 
Finally Played It... 
nice map. Old-school mood and archicecture. Also the nonlinear layout was quite nice -- I think that may also qualify as old-school, becuase I don't remember playing a lot of newer maps that were this open.

The finale was fairly easy compared to the previous map I played (with 4 SNG guys in a big room.)

Nice mix of custom bad guys. 
Question About Alpha... 
i'm adding alpha support to fitzquake, and I can't tell what the "correct" appearance is supposed to be -- is the glass supposed to have lightmaps/shading, or is it supposed to be fullbright?

Also, you have one object you set to alpha -1 in there... what is the -1 intended to do? 
Transparent 
-1 and possibly all negative values are meant to make the object entirely invisible and unrendered. 0 has to default to 1 so that all the entities are visible by default. I reckon that the more intuitive way of doing it would have been to just flip the direction of the alpha scale, so .alpha stores (1 - rendering_alpha), with 0 being fully visible and 1 being fully transparent. But the engines have a standard now, and this is it. 
Well I Think Lightmaps Will Look Better... 
...and 0 = fully transparent and 1 = opaque, for the key ".alpha". I am pleased to hear that FitzQuake will be supporting alpha for brushmodels!! I might actually put some glass into my maps now ;-P
Also, will you be able to have transparent enemies? I thought this would be cool - using progs hacks I could have a extra-tough semi-transparent glowing scrag for example.... You could implement ghosts into levels n' stuff! 
Thank You.. 
Finally played. I liked it a lot. Very pleasant on the eyes. Thanks. 
Thank You.. 
Finally played. I liked it a lot. Very pleasant on the eyes. Thanks. 
Ricky 
Transparent enemies will only appear transparent in engines that support it...

But assuming it does, just set "alpha" to some number below 1 (start with 0.5 and see how that looks) to make the monster transparent. Some models will look better than others. Same trick also works on items, if you want to be mean... 
Yeah... 
...I was kinda meaning "Will you able to have transparent enemies" - in FitzQuake now?
Also, for engines that do support alpha, isnt it ".alpha", with a stop? I heard this somewhere I think. Anyone who knows care to confirm, so we're all on the same page here?
(Ha: "Ricky - go and check the documentation")
:-P 
That's Right 
And as I remember if alpha can be applied to func's then it can be applied to entities as well, including monsters. I did it in my first map with a Vore that teleports in, smashing a wooden structure.

Problem was I had Gaunts in the map who can teleport to close with the player to any available point, with info_teleport_destination being top of their list. A messed with it a bit until the bbox of the Vore would smash the structure but the smaller Gaunt's wouldn't.

Kept the combat interesting though, since the player couldn't just leave all the enemies behind. 
.alpha Verses Alpha 
Keyvalues of an entity in a map correspond to fields of entities in the qc code. When referred to in the qc, it's called .alpha to make it clear that it is a field. The usage would go something like self.alpha = 0.5; for making the current entity called "self" have an alpha value of 0.5. But for the map keyvalue, you would simply use
"alpha" "0.5"

The same could be said of any of the standard fields, targetname is thought of as .targetname within the qc code, but as a keyvalue is just "targetname". alpha is probably mentioned as .alpha all the time because it's usually discussed by coders, who tend to think of it in terms of the qc definition. It also helps to make it clear that you are specifically talking about the per-entity field .alpha, and not the idea of alpha in a more general sense, where it can be applied to particle effects, water rendering, alpha channels on sprites, etc... 
Thanks For The Info Once Again Preach/Ijed 
so I could have:

"classname" "whatever"
"alpha" "0.3"

I mean I wouldnt have a clue about alpha on particles/sprites or anything like that. I know how to set transparent water in a level using Quoths info_command/trigger_command:

"classname" "info_command"
"targetname" "whatever"
"message" "r_wateralpha 0.4"

...would use the command "r_wateralpha 0.4" when triggered.

I just like the idea of having ghosts:

"classname" "monster_dog"
"effects" "4"
"alpha" "0.4"
"armortype" "1"
"armorvalue" "280"

This would give a dog which was transparent (ghostly), glowed orange (very ghostly) and was pretty tough for a dog.

And you could add the "alpha" key to any bmodels including doors, plats and trains?

:D 
Ricky: 
yeah, the plan is for alpha support in the next version of fitzquake. As for what it works on, theoretically it can be applied to any entity in the map file, with the exception of worldspawn. In practice, some engines only support it on some types of entity.

For example, I haven't added support to sprites yet, or static entities, or sky-textured polygons. 
Would Doing That 
For sprites allow eg. png transparency? More a question of format support since it currently has extra support for targa and pcx. 
Ijed 
like you say, that has to do with file format support, not an alpha field on map entities. 
 
I enjoyed the map. Fiend murdering was fun. Also the modified enforcers. I particularly liked the room with the three healths on the left and enforcers above a doorway, it made for cool logistics.

I concur with gb, I'm unsure about corridors, and I'm ashamed to admit I also had problems finding the second trigger for the final door ;) 
 
Is the final boss for this map bugged? and if so, was there ever a patch for it? 
Decent 
Some reason i never stumbled upon these map before. Unfortunatly for me not much opportunity for tricky runs. SO no demos today :)

final boss worked fine for me 
 
The final boss always fires into the ground 
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