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Quoth - Part 2
Finally. Quoth Part 2, the base-oriented update.

Note: the mapping tutorial is only half done. We've decided to release anyway, because it's taking too long, plus there are maps already finished that use this content and surely some more will follow.

Map sources for all the Quoth maps, including the previous pak0 maps, are downloadable from the tutorial page.

Have at it.

[edit: fixed URL]
i luv u <3 
I sense a death of any interest in Qonquer whatsoever. :)

Congrats on getting this out guys! 
Cash In Willem 
Make a Quoth2 compatible Qonquer! :D 
It should be mentioned that the download comes with 4 new playable maps including e1m2quoth, which showcase the new content. So even if you're not planning to embark on a map with quoth2 content straight away, it's worth getting the download now to play them. 
i have no idear if i will rebuild my map "fbase 95% made ID1 version)to Quoth2 but anyway thks for the work that was done on it!

will download the pack tomorow becouse today i dont have more trafic to use :\ 
Heh - that "Edie" creature looked pretty wicked! 
Thanks a lot to release it before I finished my current project ;)
I'll check it out ASAP ! 
To Kell 
With Love <3 
Just too awesome. Can the Base Pack be too far behind? 
Nice pak guys, also fantastic models eDIE especially 
This is perfect news indeed! If it�s half as good as part 1, it�s bomb then. Downloading now. 
Congrats On The Release 
There's a wealth of content here. 
Looking desperately forward for playing first custom episode for Quoth2. Will there be Lost Chapters2 please:)? 
Flak-ogre, new cyborg Edie and breakable crates, GOOD. Coloured ammo-packs were not needed though IMHO. 
Ladders! Finally. I also digg the sentinels and pyros troops. Good job!!! 
Hey! I love coloured ammo packs!!! 
Trust Me 
the color coordinated ammo packs blend in well with Quake game play. They give
a reliable context for ammo type dispersions and valuable information for the player as well. 
wont get to play this for a while but cheers for the release. 
...and W0000t again!!! 
Oooh. Half-transparent Brushes, Pyros, Laser Men, Mech-ogres... 
Fantastic new set of things to play around with!

However, E1M2Quoth, whilst having some spectacular architecture, has some questionable texturing(Brown, blue and green bricks right next to each other? ergh.) and the lighting lacks contrast, and feels a bit flat. 
Is there a list of all maps/packages made for Quoth? 
Wow Wow Wow, 
Great! Now let's see what new waves of great sp maps this will bring us! 
Wait A Minute, 
is this the same "Quoth2" we hear alot, or this is just an expansion of the original Quoth and Quoth2 is still in the working? 
Totale Owange 
w00t !! 
Congrats Guys. 
Quake 2 finally happened. Go home Strogg Wars.

People, be sure to play the older Quoth 1 maps with this again, because some things were drastically improved, like the Bobs.

List of Quoth maps (incomplete and more in the works):

kelltest1-4? or 5?

Some of these come with the Quoth paks. Someone fill in the rest.

Yup, Willem should make a pact with Kell. 
About The Map List, 
Does Warpspasm count for a quoth map pack? 
There are some maps/paks that contain Quoth or Chapters content, but don't use regular Quoth. IIRC Warpspasm is one of them. fmb_bdg is another. 
has also a Quoth2 based version, I just have to find it.... 
SRC: Bis 
Small errata: it was based on the preliminary version of Quoth2, so maybe it is not still compliant. 
Map List For Quoth 
I would add

tris (hrim_sp2) 
It should be. Check breakables. Need playtester? Send map. :-P Can't speak. Too happy. 
SRC: Ter 
OK, I found it, I will update my website ASAP, and post a new thread for that ;)
Wait and see :D 
I will sodomize the first who adds a flashlight to his map, puts an indistinguishable breakable in a dark corner and think that it is ok as a secret. Yes, I will!

Awesome update but I really don't like something:
The breakables have no different "shot-at" effects than any solid brush plus their debris hurts the player. :( 
You gay pervert :P 
Nice Work 
Are breakable transparent brushes possible?
And transparent func_Illusionaries? 
Your offer sounds tempting... ;-)

And the rubble doing damage is somewhat of a bug. Nearly everyone who implements it blindly has the rubble do damage on contact with the player, without checking first that the rubble is actually moving... 
I Thought 
It was nice physical feedback to have chunks of flying glass actually hurt the player - its not as if the pieces exist for very long anyhow. 
only damages you while falling on/hitting you. Once on the ground it's harmless. 
They fixed the rubble then? good to know...

e1m2quoth is a very nice map to play through. I liked the "super-secret", even if I did have to save a couple of times, and the "quad" secret is just am amazing piece of map programming... 
Walking On Gilded Splinters 
Yeah, to confirm: rubble does damage proportional to the speed the rubble is travelling at - so once it's stationary it does nothing. On the decision of whether rubble does damage, it had to be an all or nothing thing, making it selectable by the mapper would be unfair to the player. Once you know that rubble is dangerous in Quoth it's usually very easy to avoid. If you do miss the red blood indications on breakables, you can always make your breakables with a targetname, and a corresponding shootable trigger to target them. 
This might be a stupid question, but will there be any QuakeC release? 
Giving slowshooting flaknailgun to the slipgate traveller instead of his simple shotgun would be nice IMHO. Yet hard to think out and make weapon model with proper quakey feel, I know. I love the sound when flak ogre uses this gun! Mechanical scorpions! What a suprise, they are not mentioned on the web in the new enemies list. Sorry for spoiling them. 
Here's first run demo through the e1m2quoth:

As for the rest of the stuff, very well done! You managed to revive quake once again, all those sentries, breakables and uberogre and what forth! I wanna map again :) 
Aye, this is impressive. Can't wait for .ent/.def to get something started on this. e1m2quoth was very good, nice display of the tech and redesign of this classic map.

When's Quoth 3 coming out???? :D 
I Was Trying To Play Bioshock Lately... 
...but quoth2, qonquer and cjhsp1 made me forget it.
e1m2quoth is a great fun, and the structures made with blocks make the all thing solid.
The hammer part is cool too. 
Random Feedback... 
Let's assume that i've already mentioned that this is awesome and cool. And now i've moved on to talking about the tiniest minutiae:

- why does the plasma enforcer not have EF_MUZZLEFLASH when he shoots?

- also, the shotgun enforcer doesn't have EF_MUZZLEFLASH for his shotgun, only his grenade launcher?

- also, the new grenades look cool

- also, the flak ogre's nails come out in a symmerical pattern that looks too perfect, i think it would look better if the spread was somewhat randomized. On the other hand, maybe you wanted it to be a pattern players would learn to avoid? 
Holy Fucking Shit 
I had given up hope on this but awesome work anyways. Now for my unasked-for opinions:

I like:
- Ogre boss, sentinels, new maps, anything not mentioned below :) .

Not so much a fan of:
- Too many enforcer re-skins, and the pretty colour coding make them look like they walked out of a packet of M&Ms. Less bright colours and some customisations to the mesh would have looked a lot better. OTOH, were you trying to save on model precaches?
- The tentacles on the laser sentinel look too much like flames, IMO makes it look a bit like a flying walltorch. I would have given it a chunky, pink texture (brains).
- Not all breakable debris should do damage. I mean flesh is pretty soft right? And wood splinters wouldn't hurt as much as glass.

Can't wait to play Base Pack, if/when it comes out (I'll believe anything now :) ). 
OK, Played A Bit E1m2quoth Yesterday, And 
Found something interesting...

I was playing with Glqrack 1.85, and with its bundled new v_* and g_* models. However, while playing e1m2quoth I noticed that the replacement models were not showing up! In their stead were the original ones, by their look.Other maps seem to be all right, just e1m2quoth.

So I switched to darkplaces with some replacement models, and the same happened again.

Then I went to a drastic move, by deleting all the v_* and g_* models in .\id1\pak0.pak (backed up this file first, of course), and tried again with glqrack and darkplaces. Guess what, in e1m2quoth, the old weapon models were still shown!!

At that time I began to feel unbelieving, because how could the model still show up when the model files had been deleted? I went to check .\quoth\pak1.pak, and found some thing like c_shot, c_shot2, ...

So, in the end, my question is, are the authors experimenting some method trying to combine the v_* and g_* in a c_*, or is this an easter egg of some sort? 
Combined Weapon Models 
Yes, one of the options quoth offers is to combine the v_ and g_weapons into a single model. This is necessary for e1m2quoth as it hits the model limits exactly under the current configuration. It's an option that is specified per map. It has the added benefit of forcing models consistent with the quoth plasma gun and hammer : - p. 
Nice, Thanks For Explanation! 
a bit written in readme would be good too, though. 
A Cvar To Disable The Combined Weapon Model 
and use the replacement or original instead?

Might be useful in the future. 
OK, Maybe A Ent File Can Do The Trick. 
Looked around
and found the aflag value in worldspawn.

So it seems that I as a player can create a ent file, and then modify the aflag value in it, then use it together with darkplaces or other engines that support ent file to override the c_* models. Though this method will not work with glqrack.

When will ent file, lit file, external texture, model interpolation, raised limits, and etc etc become standard and incorporated into every engine...... 
When will ent file, lit file, external texture, model interpolation, raised limits, and etc etc become standard and incorporated into every engine......

I think we as players should be modest.Quake is an old game, and people are creating all this wonderful content like Quoth II in their spare time and for free.

Btw most of the features you mention are available in aguirRe�s engines already; except lits, but those are supported by FitzQuake, which will also have interpolation in the next version. 
don�t friggin triple post, makes the digestive process of people here go awry.

Except czg�s :P 
Sorry For Triple Post, 
but it was not intentional, more like, had something to say, and then after browsing a bit, there was something more to say about the topic, but couldn't edit the previous post, so had to make another post.

Back to the features, first, I was not complaining. More of a dream, maybe an unrealistic one.

Second, about aguirRe's engine supporting ent file, I was not aware of that. Thanks for the info. About Fitzquake, it's great news to hear it will finally support interpolation. 
Better Fix 
The best fix would be to get a set of replacement models that's designed to work with Quoth, because it's unfair to expect custom content from one mod to always work with another. It wouldn't be very hard to take the v_models and add an extra g_model frame after the attack animation, which is all that a c_weapon is. And this pack would then have the opportunity to provide a replacement plasma gun and hammer, which would be nice and consistent. I thought of having a cvar that would control this option, but it wouldn't work because you'd enable it, then you'd load this map and the engine would crash. And it would always crash on maps that had this option, because they wouldn't set it if they weren't near the model limits. On other maps it would have no effect. So it seemed like an option that we couldn't provide. 
e1m2quoth on hard got duplicate os monsters and items two monsters in same place near the ambush of the green bastards! 
Right: Downloading Now! 
I'll start working some stuff out with these new dudes 'n stuff right away!!

Should be fun! 
Good news Ricky, looking forward for playing your masterpiece(in summer?). But keep it simple please, the pack-included e1m2quoth is nice representation of all of the quoth2 potential, but I found it a bit garish, if you know what I mean. 
(On the new stuff)

the base-oriented update - personally I'm not convinced by the need to boost the base enemy repetoire. I guess I'm used to base having less hardcore monsters, but also that many of Quake's monsters (i.e. all but knights) can be used in base regardless.

Sentinel - fine, less irritating than Bobs, like the tentacles on top, will have to get used to rest of model.

Pyro - pretty cool attack, effective in combat as makes circle strafing harder, sprites could do with some work, model a bit yellow, could do with some re-modelling.

Eliminator - okay but don't really see the need. Prefer Zer's mega-Enforcer for looks, diversity, and combat.

Flak Ogre - good overall, nicely subtle skin, a bit of remodelling would be nice too.

Eddie - good addition to the repetoire, nice to have a new monster rather than a reskinned Enforcer. Quite Quakey in some ways but also quite derivative of Armagon + Q2 Gunner + Q2 Gladiator. So not sure what I make of the vibe of it. Weapons good as is combat. I think it just needed something to break free from it's influences, and it would be great.

Backpacks - not a fan. Could be done subtler.

Flashlight - great, works well, simple but effective, like the idea of it alerting monsters!

Forcefield - absolutely fine.

Ladders - absolutely fine, work well.

Breakables - great in both looks and sound, work nicely, like the different debris and different sounds for each genre. Damage is okay but maybe a bit less would be good. Having different damage feedback (i.e. not the usual grey dots) would be very useful.

Explosions - good. 
Breakable - map of the decade :)

Kelltest5 - ummm.

Kellbase1 - a proper map!! Quite hard first time, easier when you know what's coming up (like dropping down into the "no chance of survival first go" final Enforcer pit. Good showcase of new enemy tho.

E1M2Quoth - very good. Again quite tough. Easy to run out of health and ammo near the end. Some of the new stylistic tweaks are great, the flooded missing-brick floors especially. Not always as coherently done as E1m1RMX though. The outside scenes you see outside the window are is the super-secret, one of the coolest scenes yet in a Quake map, really great. 
OK, Gettin It Together!! 
Does anybody have an FGD for this mod yet? 
Ricky, please make it dark Ogre Den (dwelled by flak ogres+grenade ogres) or cyborg+pyros+mechascorion military base! 
Its The Latter... 
e1m2quoth is awesomely brilliant ! Very good work ! 
Oh Look... There IS A Kellbase1! 
I didn't even see it before. I liked it a lot. I liked everything in it. I have no polite words to describe how happy I am that you made and released this for all . Except... Thank you Kell. 
Technical Question 
I like Quoth a lot and have just one technican question. Is there any way (console command?) to make lasers fired by enemies and weapon shots make "glow" (orange light) in Quoth mod while using Fitzquake080 engine? Thanks 
1 or 0, not sure which you want. 
Kinda, But... 
The effect is turned on by the command gl_flashblend 1, but there is a reason why it is disabled by default. That reason is that if you have it turned on, then the flashlight is not going to illuminate walls. It will still light up models that happen to be in the flashlight's beam, but you aren't going to be able to navigate with it. When you have gl_flashblend 0, then rockets and the flashlight beam dynamically light the surroundings, rather than just render the orange glow - which was originally added for performance reasons. If you still want to change the variable, add the command to autoexec.cfg in the quoth folder(create one if it's not there). Adding it to config.cfg will not work. 
As long as flashlight is contained in one level of all only, I will change the value to 1 to improve look of other quoth idbase levels. Thanks 
So is that gl_flashblend "1"
at the end of C:\games\quake\quoth\autoexec.cfg file, right? (or +gl_flashblend 1?) It seems to be switching back to default 0 value after finishing first level.

Map, map, map mappers, looking forward for combination of new idbase levels (without flashlight) with new cyborgs and lost chapters styled maps full of droles, sentinels and new nail-shooting ogres!:)

Undreamed Shores forever. 
gl_flashblend 1, no quotes on anything, tested this just now and it works. 
Those outdoor areas are an appropriate Quake-y kind of way ;)

I am seriously looking forward to mapping with all this new content :) 
yee go map generic you are getting to lazy... 
Kell And Preach... 
...I'm close to release here, but am having difficulty implementing the ladders. They work fine from the ground up to the top step but then the players progress judders and slows as he gets off. Is there a tute or example .map somewhere?

And if anyone's thinking of going Benny Hill on this post, forget it :P 
Examples And Tips 
You can get the source of kellbase1 from the quoth mapping tutorial, linked from the bottom of the quoth page. The tutorial's entry on trigger_ladder is complete, and it has lots of helpful advice. The two most important tips are:

1) To set the angle of the trigger to point out away from the surface of the ladder. This makes sure the player is correctly pulled in at the top.

2) Make sure that the top surface of the trigger is flush with the floor surface at the top of the ladder. This should also be a flat surface for best effect, it may not work so well if it's a slope. 
OK, so I could download the mapsource, but just in short:

"How do you create a Nail Sentinel?"

Is there a spawnflag for it to fire nails instead of lazers or something?


Still no Quoth2 fgd?


Loving the new monsters! :-P 
Nail Sentinels 
The third spawnflag (4 in binary) specifies a nail sentinel. This is something which will be added to the tutorial page soon, it's not quite complete as you can tell! At the moment, I don't know of anyone who's making a fgd for quoth2. 
Thanks Preach! 
My level will be ready for testing by Tuesday.

:D :D :D

I have added a few lines to my fgd, but its by no means complete.

Who wants to test? (the level, not the shitty fgd) 
Ladder Issue 
In kellbase1, in the room with the 3 ladders, it's not possible to climb up onto the upper level in DarkPlaces. 
It Seems 
that nowadays many mappers don't think it's a issue if their map can not run properly in Darkplaces.

Darkplaces used to be my favorite engine, but recent releases are too slow for my old rig. A real pity, for I still think it's the most advanced engine. 
seal it over dude

:D :P 
Mr D... 
...thanks, that's the job. These Quoth2 ladders are excellent for the long slow vertical climb, or the short one not featuring combat...but in a fight area I may have to tweak my existing mechanical ladders for the sake of speed. We'll see what the testers say this time round. 
Expanded Quoth .fgd 
Wasn't ijed working on one? 
that nowadays many mappers don't think it's a issue if their map can not run properly in Darkplaces.

It is not the fault of the mappers and modders who are doing nothing more than using standard compilers and writing in standard QuakeC. It is Dark Places that fails to comply. You will find many old mods bugged out when played in Dark Places. 
what HeadThump said. Darkplaces is that much away from standard Quake that it should not be considered for Singleplayer playing. Unless of course a mod has been coded specifically for it.

For a quoth.fgd you guys should maybe consider usign some wiki-sort of collaborative web thing. 
But I haven't looked at it in a while. I'll dig it out and post it. I remember it being 95% complete, but there's almost certainly holes in there somewhere - no updated info_trap etc.

That said all the basic stuff is on there with a few other additions for AguirRe's compilers, so it should make a fairly solid base if anyone wants to continue it.

I'll post it tonight. 
e1m2quoth : loved the trinity secret, outdoors area. I liked the colours and textures too - nice change for Q1, and not ~too~ loud.

Re Quoth2... damage from breakables, breakable crates and flashlights. Imho, not sure they're great ideas ... just make the game more complicated ???
Edie is a classic model. Very Q2-ish, but feels good :> The new features all look like quality programming. Was it much Quake C ? 
Oooh - dont start!

In my level, it wont spawn any of the doors at all!!

Also im running a 8800 GTS 512MB, and it RUNS real time lighting, but it looks TERRIBLE, full white in textures around the lights.

I recommend FitzQuake, AguirRe's GlQuake or JoeQuake. JoeQuake is pretty stable from my experience! And it looks cool too! Telejano? Thats pretty good also! I think I had problems in Telejano with altering the mouse-speed but excepting that everything worked fine!

Quoth2 - steven_a - I'm just guessing, but I think Quoth2 is a MILESTONE in Quake C. Theres more Quake C alterations and additions there that you could shake a stick at! Add a little skeletal animation and you would have Half-Life 1.

Quoth2 - Preach/Kell/Necros - I love you guys!! :D

Can I be your freind?

I am loving this stuff, incorporating what I can into my map has been really good fun, kept me up so late at night I was late to work!

I still use a func_illusionary/clip brush ladder though. But it's nice to know I have options ;-P 
Hi Ricky, feel free to send me your level for playtest (mail, icq 259689233). Try to make proper ladders please. Nail sentinel? I thought you are working on base, ratsack-like level! 
Hey Ricky, 
If you like Joequake, you can give Qrack a try. It's a spin-off of Joequake, but has got some nice improvements, such as autoloading a skybox (in Joequake you have to manually load the skybox, for example, in Travail), among other things. 
Quoth2 Fgd

Its almost certainly incomplete, but the basic stuff should be there. If you update it then reupload it, but be warned, I ended up using c+p alot instead of the cascades system. 
Thanks Ijed! 
Er.... It Says On Kells Site... 
...that there are forcefields. But there's no documentation to support this feature at all. Is it even used in any of the included maps?

How do you create a forcefield? :-) 
ricky, kellbase1 has a forcefield 
Forcefields are func_togglewalls with a spawnflag set. The details aren't written up in the tutorial yet, but here's enough details to get you started:

Spawnflag 2 turns on the particle effect, making this into a forcefield. While the func_togglewall is solid, a particle effect will scroll across it. The "worldtype" key takes values from 0 to 5 specifying the direction the effect scrolls: up, down, east, west, north or south. The "colour" key should be a quake palette index specifying the colour of the particles. "speed" specifies the speed at which the wave should travel. "style" specifies the number of particle bursts that should be generated per second. Take care that style is not set too high, or the player will be flooded with particle messages, causing lag in network games.

The network warning is especially important if you want to run the map in coop, you might want to consider using the coop spawnflags to change the entity setup to something less demanding for coop mode. 
Thanks For The Info ! 
I Take It That Info_command_spawn 
will just act as if the command was in the worldspawn?

"classname" "info_command_spawn"
"message" "r_wateralpha 0.4"

will just activate on the start of the level ? 
Yeah, the info_command_spawn intended for that kind of command, but it has two subtle extra points. The first is that it is applied when a player spawns, rather than when the map starts. The only time this makes a difference is in coop, but using it means that each player is sure to get the command when they connect. It also gets sent again if they respawn, so if you have different fog levels in different sections of the map, setting the initial fog level with info_command_spawn ensures respawning players will have the right fog for that location.

The other thing that it does is sets the "environment variable" for the client to the command in the info_command_spawn. This means that when they load a saved game on this map, the command from the environment variable will be sent again. Otherwise it's possible that they could load another map or restart the engine, which would reset the wateralpha value. There are ways to update the environment variable for different regions of the map, but that's only needed if you're doing different fog levels/wateralpha levels around the place. If you have a global setting for the whole map, put it in info_command_spawn and it's all handled for you.

Two important additions on how to format commands though:
1) Make it "r_wateralpha 0.4\n", the extra \n on the end of the command makes it execute, otherwise players can encounter a problem where the engine misses them pressing/releasing buttons.
2) If you had fog as well as wateralpha, you shouldn't add two info_command_spawn entities as only one of them will work. Instead make one entity containing both commands separated by semicolons. Like:
"fog 0.2 0.3 0.2 0.5;r_wateralpha 0.4\n" 
Sound Like I Need Me One Of Those! 
Nice one. 
New Bad Guys. 
It's strange, this having to learn new tactics thing :)

Pyros are cool, they definitely make you think again.

Edies are nasty.

Sentinels are pretty soft, they're easy to hit.

Eliminators are annoying. 
My Quoth Fan-art Drawing 
Ladder Issue Solved 
I figured out why you can't get up the ladders in darkplaces, though I gotta tell you it was a bit of a stumper for a while. The problem is actually the size of the solid boxes around the metal grills, in darkplaces these are made too large. The size of them is calculated based on the dimension of the sprite reported by the engine.

Winquake(and presumably all other engines):
'-64 -64 -64' '64 64 64'
'-90.5 -90.5 -90.5' '90.5 90.5 90.5'

For reference, the sprite is 128x128 pixels - and one pixel to one quake unit is drawn in both engines. So why does darkplaces report such a strange value? Well, 90.5 is ~ sqrt( 64 * 64 + 64 * 64), which is the length of the diagonal line from the centre of the sprite to the corner. So I'm guessing that it's stored like that to create a corrected "bounding radius" for the sprite. This is to make sure you don't get into the situation where the corner of the sprite should be just on screen, but the engine thinks you can't see it any more.

My feeling on the matter is that this updated bounding radius should not be sent to the qc, and that darkplaces should just store it internally. I don't think this would be hugely problematic to fix, the fact is that nobody uses sprites in quake, so it's probably never been noticed before. 
Sounds Missing... 
I've got testers reporting missing quake.wav and quakeend.wav at level start. All are using -hipnotic -game quoth with Quoth and Quoth2 installed. I've double checked .map and the level doesn't call these sounds. Ideas? 
Yeah, There Is Indeed Some Sound Missing, 
the most noticeable one is when the game begins by playing demo1, and the explosion sound of ogre's grenade would be missing. 
Yeah - Distrans - That Happened To Me! 
er, what was it, its coded in the info_screenshake to play those sounds. Re-assign the sounds to "misc/null.wav", for the keys "noise" and "noise1", in every info_screenshake in your map, and the warnings will disappear!

I think Preach answered me on the mapping help thread, #7180

Ta Ricky... 
..I'll do that tonight. Mebbe there'll be another base map out this weekend :) 
Sounds Missing 
The earthquake sounds are available in mission pack 1, but not in the quoth packs. If you actually want them then send me an e-mail, but you can just silence them like Ricky says.

The missing explosion sounds in the start-up demo is in fact by design. Quake sends the explosion sound automatically whenever you tell it to create the explosion particles. In order to make it possible to have explosions with different sounds, the default explosion noise is replace by a silent .wav file and explosion noises are added "by hand". This can be seen with the bob. Of course, the noises are not added retroactively in demos that were already recorded. 
Will the Quoth2 pack be updated with these sounds? 
Preach, sorry for not testing with my other map. That had the screenshake entity in it and I didn't notice the sounds were missing back then.

It would be cool if they could be added in an update. Maybe the current pak could be replaced? Anyone with the old pak would still get the warning, but it's not a big deal. Are there other complications that could arise from modifying an existing pak?

Should we just ship the sfx with our maps? 
Yeah - Good Question! 
My map is in the latter stages of vis. I can do

txQbsp -onlyents



and then theres only newskip.exe to run, but after I do that, I cant change anything, cause changing the ents would require re-doing the lights (some lights toggle on-off), and light.exe has a fit after newskip is run... (takes deep breath)

In short, I'd like to know! 
thats gonna confuse people.

I just mean I can get rid of the "noise" and "noise1" keys in my screenshakes, but only before I run newskip.

Unless theres another way. I'm too scared of loosing my vis data! 
light -onlyents then 
I Dont Think That Works With Tyrlite 
Sounds And Ents 
There's no plan at the moment to update with a patch. If we were, the plan would be to create a pak2.pak with the patch elements in it, to be overwritten when part 3 is released. We'd make that a separate download and patch the full file at the same time. But we'd really only use that option if a critical problem like a crash bug came up. So for now I guess the best thing is to distribute the sounds with your map. Otherwise it'll go from you telling us there's a bug to people playing your maps telling you there's a bug, even though it's not your fault, because they didn't get the patch.

And yeah Than, don't worry about not spotting it, I messed up too. I had a test map for the earthquakes, but I was specifying the sounds by hand, so the defaults were never tested.

Modifying entities:
There's at least one way of doing this when a map is fully compiled, without having to worry about which utility to use at which time. Get a copy of adquedit:

Then open the bsp file with this program. You'll see a button to extract entities. This saves them to a text file, where you can edit them directly, add new fields, even add entirely new ents to the map. Then use adquedit to import them again. The text file is basically an ".ent" file, but the program bakes the entities into the map when you use the import function. 
OK, Smart! 
ATM I have the misc/null.wav set for noise and noise1. I think I'll probably leave it that way, but its nice to know I could change it if I so desired in the future!

I Wouldn't Recommend 
using *any* old bsp modifying program on a modern bsp, they'll most likely trash it completely.

Ricky: If you don't change any brushes, you can always do another fullvis (or fastvis) run using the same prt+vis file. As long as the prt file doesn't change, the vis file should be OK.

A new run only takes a few seconds. 
How long has your site been suspended for? 
Moderator - Please Change Post ^^^ 

I played around with trigger_command and found a bug. My message is "screenshot". Sometimes when moving through it "+attack" or "+forward" are appended to "screenshot" = "screenshot+attack".
It doesn't bother me as it does not affect what I am doing but it seems undesired. 
Of course +attack is only appended when I actually +attack at that time. 
You must suffix all commands with \n, so that the commands don't run into each other. We toyed with the idea of having all the _command entities sending "\n" after all commands but it doubles the network overhead, and stuffcmd is traffic intensive to begin with. So it's up to mappers to format the commands correctly, but when the tutorial is extended to cover all the _command entities, we will make this explicit. 
I read that before but forgot about it. Thanks. 
Played It 
nice stuff! Not overly fond of the backpacks though.

I liked the new maps, although I felt the texturing in e1m2quoth didnt always gel. One bug too, some of the pillars or buttresses kept disappearing and reappearing (sort of like software greyflash but they would just disappear). Is this known? I was using aguire's engine. 
Kell 404s 
when is the Quoth mapping tutorial going to be completed? 
map src2 by JPL

i think its a monster_bob relating issue

ADDRESS 28(self)entity 0 330(cnt).cnt 420(?]
: SUB_AttackFinished : statement 0
: CheckAttack : statement 72
: CheckAnyAttack : statement 5
: ai_run : statement 73
: ai_runfly : statement 4
: bob_run1 : statement 2
PR_ExecuteProgram: assignment to world entity
Host_Error: Program error

the same deal with a sicktower by mr.Richard 
It is bug related to Quoth2 monster_bob indeed, not caused by my map... 
i know, but i think progs.dat should be fixed? 
I don't know: perhaps you should ask directly Kell or Preach 
I Waiting (hoping) For A Hotfix 
After the bomb bug.

Also the Bob is what crashes demo playback in FitzQuake when playing a JoeQuake-recorded demo (I cant remember which protocol is which)

i.e. demos play fine untill a bob is encountered

Preach - Is a hotfix likely to be released at some point? :D 
Ok, Fixed 
Thanks for the full error message, it made it much easier for me to diagnose the bug. The crash occurs when a monster_bob gets telefragged. It was possible for it to escape the death animation sequence, the ghosting issue which can happen to fiends in the original quake progs. It turns into a crash though, because the gun model for a bob gets removed when it's health is below 0, even though the monster is "ghosted". So eventually you get an assign to world. The death sequence escape has been fixed, and the crash no longer occurs on this map - patch will be available soon. 
Oh yes, I remember this issue now: it has been solved in SRC only, and already reported.
SRC2 has the issue, as it has not been solved, and also because this map is older than SRC: it is a mix between monsters placement (too close) in the slime area with the stairs platform above, and the progs.dat issue...
Well, it is also partially my mistake, I have to admit it.. sorry for the trouble.. ;) 
there is a minor bug with the screenshake entity aside from the missing default sounds. It prints some debug info when it is triggered. I presume this is not related to the lack of sounds. 
You want to get rid of the seismometer?

Ok, seriously, this has been noted and was fixed along with the earthquake sounds. Just holding off a bit to test the recent changes and see if anyone else knows a crash bug first. 
why doesn't eddie drop a backpack? 
What Would 
it require to make a basic standalone version based on quoth(2) with no id non-GPL content (Free content is fine by me, doesn't have to be GPL. Id1 isn't free technically.)

Player model, a few guns besides the plasma..
There are probably already enough original monsters (four?) to have rudimentary playability. There is the excellent Knave texture set too.
I don't know what would be a good from scratch texture set for base maps. 
but why? there is Cube/sauer for a free fps if you really need one 
Cause I Think 
Quoth is cool that would enable it to more people. On all platforms too. 
yeah, go ahead and start the 'Quoth: free open source FPS' project, Im sure many will jump on 
I don't know if Quoth-only maps would work. It was made as an enhancement to Quake...

not enough weapons, not open source... copyright issues? ... basic monster types missing... textures...

would be fun to try a Quoth-only map (well as far as it's possible), perhaps a speedmap theme... then again, why not use the time and energy to make a proper Quake map...

I have thoroughly adopted it as a quasi-standard though, because it's readily available, makes some things much easier (spawning), and gives me many more options. I have to violently restrain myself from using such neaties as vorelings, breakables, and delayspawn in my current speedmap.

I would say that Quoth is the first thing I reach for, except that it's practically the other way around. Why _not_ use it, if it makes life easier...

I can understand if someone doesn't like the monsters, but even then it's just a neat package of handy func_s and info_s. 
Why Do People Want A Free Quake... 
..when Quake is already 12 years old and available very cheaply? Also, the amount of assets and code you would need to strip out would make it almost a completely different game. I know I don't want to play Quake without the grenade launcher, ogres or shamblers.

Anyway, like gb said, Quoth is a sort of standard for mappers as it contains not only a nice set of new monsters but also a lot of features that make mapping even easier. 
Because ... 
then maps and other creations could be used by a much larger audience.

But, the reason it will never happen is not due to the models .. Quake only has a very finite set of models (*) .. but because of the sounds.

The sounds in Quake are very high quality, are very numerous (70-100?) and go together very well.

Composition of Quake ..

(1) Player - high quality player model = easy
(2) 10 monsters or so = difficult
(3) 8 weapons = difficult
(4) All the health and ammo boxes are simply boxes = trivial
(5) Projectiles = rocket/grenade/nail = light
(6) Map retexturing = very difficult, but more a question of an endurance
(7) Sounds = nigh impossible

Sounds: all the different player noises, the weapon noises, the thud of a rocket, the drip of tunnel, the monster grunts, the dog bites, the scrag lurking, the cricketey swamp noises

Quake really has the sounds down perfectly. 
sound libs are easier to find than an animator
who isnt busy

I wish that quoth was just
a lot of features that make mapping even easier. and monsters were in some other pack and vorelings never existed in the first place 
I was going to say exactly the same as Baker after briefly looking into it.

Openquartz uses quake sounds. I did test it, it was actually weird but not as bad as I feared.

Some of the quake sounds are from a sound library which you need a commercial licence of. There was a thread about it somewhen on some qw site where a guy had made a sound pak with the original 44 kHz sounds. For example the shaft is quite badly distorted in actual quake, but that kinda makes it better. :) 
the monsters are cool. Also, you needn't use them in your maps, right? 
me puts on the Evil Quake Purist hat 
The Trouble With Vorelings Is 
that they have too much health!
They should be one shot -> dead enemies.
You can make a map that looks and feels 100% like pure Quake, but still uses Quoth. It is totally transparent. The monsters are optional. It's kind of a honeymoon phase where everyone overuses them, but that will go away.

Transparent functions that I think are very nice to have would include the spawning, hub system, screenshake, breakables, rotateables, ladders, longtorches, info_multispawn (aka func_hordespawn), buttons that travel with lifts, new traps, sound players, console command entity, enhancements to existing entities, forcefields, monsters dropping keys... you name it...

all that in a neat package... although I would like to see most of the monsters split off into their own pak file... so you have a base Quoth, containing just the progs, plus what's required for breakables etc, plus some models and sprites (trees etc) plus signature monsters (voreling, rocketeer.)

The benefit would be that it would be a much smaller download. Quoth Lite?

Monsters' HP have been drastically reduced already, you should have seen the beta Sentinel, or beta Edie.

Vorelings are OK IMO, the problem is that they're still overused (groups of them) without appropriate firepower given. A nailgun is enough against a small group, SNG/GL is IMO required for larger groups.

Concerning Quake sounds, it is possible to substitute them with Creative Commons licensed samples (plus self-made voice acting), but it's true that some sounds are so unique that players wouldn't want to miss them. That is a general problem with replacements, players are going to warez the original instead because it will almost certainly be better.

give me 600 dollars and I'll buy a copy of the General collection (where most of them come from) and assemble a pak. But I don't know how legal it would be to distribute them along a GPL Quake replacement.

Quoth sounds, let's not go there. Nobody guarantees that they're royalty free. Modified id skins, models... same goes for knave.wad, do you honestly see no modified id textures in there? Look again...

You can have the first episode plus a modern engine for free already, in Gentoo it's as simple as

emerge ezquake-bin quake1-demodata

and there you go... more engines are on their way into the various package managers every day...

and there are warsow, nexuiz, alienarena, quake2-demodata (you can play online with just the q2 demo plus latest patch), quakedoomblah-demo, doom1/2 shareware, rtcw, cube/sauer, AA...

linux/bsd users have access to hours and hours of free fps games and modern engines already.

look @

needless to say, a free original Quake at least covering online gaming (= you can get on a normal server with it) would indeed increase Quake's popularity.

Id could release a patch that upgrades the shareware to a standard-multiplayer-capable version, like Quake 2... 
Compatibility With Quoth 1? 
Is Quoth 2 fully compatible with Quoth 1 maps?

I don't care about save game files, I just means do the maps work fine with it? 
Just The Bomb Doesnt Work, If Sp Maps 
have the bomb in them it crashes when triggered

you have to use quoth1 for that 
There is a fix coming for that, but it might still be two/three weeks off. Which isn't to say that it's a hard bug to fix, the required change is there. I'm just making sure that everything is stable so there only needs to be one patch to sort everything out - and that has to wait until exams finish. As a freebie there will also be lots of performance improvement thrown in : - ). 
it is compatible 
your hubs dont save each map state, right? 
Hub Niggurath 
No, they don't. It was something that myself and Kell discussed as an idea for Part 3, but there are technical and conceptual hurdles to it. So it's unlikely to appear there either. 
check out FrikaC hub mod - it saves all the maps.

2001 sheesh 
But the way that mod does it would break coop mode, for example. It also allows only one "saved" state on any given hub-system. So something more complicated would be needed. 
coop and folders - cant do that w/o engine mods afaik. 
Coop And Folders 
Certainly you wouldn't be able to play hub maps in coop, it's out of the question without engine mods. What I was saying was that the way this patch does hubs would break playing existing maps in coop, and seeing as how quoth just got done putting lots of coop support into the mod, that seems unwise.

As for the folders thing, I was thinking more of a random/incremental prefix in front of each hub save file which would match within each playthrough. But like I say, it probably won't materialise. 
Thinking about the way these hubs work has put in mind of something. It would be really easy to make an autosave trigger for quake, where it would save upon touching/triggering it, and next time you died, pressing fire would load that rather than restart the level. If it doesn't make it into quoth, it's certainly something people might want to add to their own progs - especially if their map has one or two "first time unfair" moments. 
Doable Since Custents 
trigger_once stuffcmd save 'blah'
@playersart trigger_once stuffcmd 'load blah' 
Already Doable In Quoth? 
what about the trigger than activate console commands (forgot the name)? Does that work?

I was thinking about trying to put an autosave point at the end of my map, but thought maybe it's a bit rude to do it in a game that doesn't have an autosave feature to save without the player's permission. 
You could use a trigger_command with message "save autosave" to save the game to autosave.sav. This would work well enough - although you might want to flag it NOT_IN_COOP. The problem would be loading it again - speedy's idea has a small problem.

The plan would be to have an info_command over the spawnpoint, which sends the message "load autosave". First time you touched it, the game would send you a warning telling you that autosave.sav couldn't be opened. This is a bit ugly but passable. Then when you hit an autosave the file is created, and next time you start the map then the trigger fires and the autosave would load.

The problem is that the autosave would load any time you restarted this map - whether you just died or not. You wouldn't be able to replay the map from the beginning without deleting the autosave from the directory manually. And if lots of maps started doing this, the autosaves might "collide", and starting one map would load an autosave from another.

You could add a slight contrivance, similar to the way that FMB_bdg allowed you to shut the music off. That would mean adding a func_button to the starting room for actually loading the savegame. It ought to have a trigger round it which tells you "press this button to load a past autosave". That's how I'd do it if I needed to do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

One thing you certainly shouldn't do is replace the trigger_command for loading the autosave with info_command_spawn. I know it sounds like a perfect plan, you want the command to be sent as the player spawns, and that's what info_command_spawn is for! But...the other thing info_command_spawn does is resend the command when you load from a saved game. So you'll get trapped in a loop of loading the autosave constantly... 
is there any way you can do it with some info_player_start2 trickery? 
you could do the 'always autoload after initial spawn' with a trigger_once that triggers a not gate that then would trigger the load.

not gate = shooter, toggleable door and a shootable button 
Oh Yeah Button 
that sounds even better! re-viving machines from systemshock :) 
Sigil Failure 
metlslime: Just tested it out, but I don't think it's possible. info_player_start2 is used when the player has a sigil(serverflags set to something). If you pick up a rune in a level, and then die, you don't count as having serverflags when you restart. As far as I know, there's nothing that would persist from the previous state of the map when you restart after dying - it's indistinguishable from just reloading the map with "restart" or "map pr1sp1"(*). So what you need is something that loads the savegame before the restart, which is where the new code would come in.

(*) Actually, there is a recognised difference between these two seemingly identical commands when used in the console. "restart" will leave the console open, "map x" will close the console. Whether the console is open or closed at server spawn can make items drop out of levels. I don't think this difference has an effect here. 
bad name really. If anyone does this, I argue the save game should be named the same as the bsp to avoid any conflicts between different maps.

Also re: player_start2, I had some idea that it could be used to start in a different area of a map when starting a level that occured after a start map when the player found the nightmare exit. I assumed that it was related to the episodegate entity, but I guess that's just for printing text at the end, right? Still, I guess it could be done just by giving the player a rune before they enter the nightmare door 
Map X / Restart 
Indeed, there is a difference.
However, items only drop out if they're placed incorrectly. The restart command also screws around with suspended items if they're done the regular way (func_wall -> killtarget on map start). Self-removing func_walls are unaffected. 
Where can I get all the mapping stuff for Quoth2? Like the .DEF files and all that jazz? I downloaded Quoth2 from Kell's site but the zips contain a few PAK files and that's it. 
Do You Mean An Fgd? 
No, I need a .DEF file like for QERadiant ... that's what ToeTag will read. I remember I got the Quoth 1 file from somewhere but can't remember where now. Quoth2 must have one, right? What did the FGD file get made from? :) 
I don't know of an existing .def for Quoth2. If anyone has one, please cough it up! :)

I keep meaning to make one myself, I was kind of hoping for the complete docs before I did so though (so I didn't miss any info or parameters). To the best of my knowledge the Quoth 2 mapping documentation is not fully complete yet?

I think that the WC/Hammer .FGD files are in a pretty different format (to .def files) but you may be able to get the information you need out of them with a little bit of screwing around.

I promise to deliver a .def, if and when I ever make one... ;) 

OK, Ricky, do you have a complete FGD file for Quoth 2? If so, could you send it over to me (willem - wantonhubris)? I'll make a DEF file out of it if I can find the time. 
Well This Is What I Was Gonna Say: 
AFAIK there is no complete fgd file, I just edited the one I already had!

I dunno what def files are like but fgd's remind me of css files ;-P

Sorry I can't be of more help 
I Can Mail You The File But I Dont Have It Handy Right Now 
I can mail it to you in a couple of hours, but it's by no means polished or complete... 
Bugger it all ...

Is the Quoth2 documentation going to be finished up anytime soon? It's been over 3 months since release. :) 
Quoth 2 Docs 
From what we've been told, it's actually reasonably complete. I've just been playing the "docs not done yet" card as an excuse for putting off the "make quoth2.def" task.

That and the fact that I don't have a Quoth 2 map in progress... :) 
Heh - 
It's not too bad really. You can get quite far from just common sense and the source files.

The breakables are pretty versatile in their uses, but if you look at the source for the breakable demo map, you can find the right settings

monster_pyro, monster_eliminator - just like enforcers

monster_scourge, monster_edie - I just used the same binding box size as the feind, right or wrong (my edie's havent been stuck in the wall so far)

the, er, flying bot which arent Bobs (cant remember the name) - spawnflags 1 = fires nails instead of lazers

ladders - didnt use this, used a clip-brush/func_illusionary ladder

I used the manual to make the entities required for rotating entities... 
Actually, the source files would work for me as well (since that's all DEF fils are - class headers copied from the QC source). Is the Quoth2 source available? 
I'll make a list of what's not there, it's all pretty small things besides the command stuff.

The tutorial as it stands

info_command_spawn (but covered in )
info_command_server (but functionally just an info_command sent to server rather than client)
info_multispawn (these two are just renamings of func_multispawn and func_hordespawn respectively)

trigger_counter/trigger_once/trigger_mutliple (but the update is listed in coop configuration) 
Oh, And 

These two don't even have dummy entries in the tutorial but actually both have updates. Putting this in the thread mostly to remind myself... 
I Did 
A fgd, but can't remember what happened to it. I think I uploaded a copy for Distrans.

Chances are it got lost when the shub-hub was wiped. 
...yes, and look what horrible evil came of it :)

Willem, I'll send mid morning tomorrow if you wish. 
Quoth 2-compatible QRP Textures 
I've converted the hi-res textures from the Quake Remodeling Project so they work with Quoth 2's combined ammo/health model.

I take no credit for these textures; they are the very same ones available from the QRP's bmodel pack. I've merely repackaged them to be Quoth 2 compatible. (Consequently, if you were never fond of the QRP textures, there's probably no reason to download this.)

- Since FitzQuake doesn't support external alias model textures (AFAIK), these won't work with it.
- Ricky's "Slave to a Machine" is currently the only map that uses the combined ammo/health model.

Comments welcome. See enclosed text file for full info.

Available from Shub-Hub (~15MB): 
D E F 
Actually, the source files would work for me as well (since that's all DEF fils are - class headers copied from the QC source). Is the Quoth2 source available?

That being the case, having the source would make creating the .def file super easy. It would also mean the bounding box info and all that will be accurate, rather than guesswork.

Even if the source isn't going to be made available in full, could we get a list of all the entities copied from the source files? 
Quoth2 Enforcer Backpacks 
Is there a way to restore the original amount of cells Enforcers give in Quoth2? It wasn't a very good idea to do this globally as some maps actually rely on the 5 cells bonus (1 is ridiculously few). 
DEF Headers 
The def headers are only there if the coder adds them, they're essentially just comments as far as the compiler is concerned. So having the source would be of no help to you, sorry to say. The source is not released anywhere. 
Damn it. I guess I'll just wait then.

However, I would suggest that you'd be seeing more Quoth 2 maps/activity if we had some entity DEF files. 
that was my suggestion because 5 is ridiculously many considering how weak enforcers are and how strong the LG is. You get 3 bonus cells for every enforcer you kill with the LG ffs. I thought it was impossible to really control the cells in dm3rmx and so asked for the cells to be reduced in Quoth.

Maybe you are right about it being not default, but are there any non-Quoth maps that rely on 5 cells per backpack? I found that less cells makes dm3rmx more fun and can still clear it on hard 100% kills. 
Sorry if I seemed overly negative before. To be honest I was wondering how many playtesters you had - thinking back all of the problems were stuff that you'd spot within five minutes of some Quake newb sat in front of the level.

AFAIK the fgd doesn't have the extended flags, since they go outside the worldcraft base set / limitation. Apparently they can be set manually somehow. 
Indeed it makes sense in large base maps.

I wanted to have the LG as a kind of secret weapon that has to be used with consideration, and not put actual cell packs in. It wouldn't be a problem to work around this by adding a Quoth2 detector but I guess a few more cells in Quoth1 wouldn't hurt either. 
If you use GtK 1.5, afaik, you can easily switch between custom content in Quake using the files that came with Quoth without making any new entities or the like. I could be wrong on that, but I seem to remember setting it up with little hassle. 
ToeTag will do that as well - but without source files with proper class headers, it can't. That information just isn't in the PAK files (AFAIK anyway). 
Some Of The Map Sources Are 
available. I stripped out the entity text for one of them and use it for reference. I haven't created a .def file for it as of yet since I can only guess at the spawnflag settings in a hit or miss kind of way without the source. 
What The Def 
I'll definitely volunteer to create a complete .def file if and when the full range of required info is made available. At the risk of stating the obvious, for each new entity we need to know:

- entity name
- description of entity
- bbox extents
- spawnflags
- keys (and the valid range of values)
- is it meant to be a point entity or a trigger/bmodel (not always obvious)
- anything else I forgot

I understand that a lot of this info is available, but unless I missed something, we don't have access to all of that stuff. (Correct me if I'm wrong, else, wake me up when it's ready). 
By The Way... 
I didn't mean to suggest that I'm ungrateful here - I appreciate the effort that has gone into Quoth/2, and I'm looking forward to making some SP maps with the new monsters and functionality. I just don't want to be fumbling around in the dark while I do it. :) 
Oh yeah, and just to chime in here myself. I love the work that went into Quoth2. You guys are at the 18 mile mark of a marathon. Just get some documentation out (at least a .DEF file) and we can get to work supporting your creation! 
Why Not 
Decompile the progs so you can put together a working .def whilst waiting for the approved version? 
Preach already said there aren't any comments in the class headers so where would the information come from? I'm not too keen on reading the source code (decompiled, even) and piecing together spawnflags. 
In other words, I already have a full time job. :) 
Fair Enough ;) 
- entity name
- description of entity
- bbox extents
- spawnflags
- keys (and the valid range of values)
- is it meant to be a point entity or a trigger/bmodel (not always obvious)
- anything else I forgot

How many times do I have to link in this thread...
Apart from the handful of entities I listed in my last post, this information is there for all the new entities.

The quoth naming convention is that anything that's a bmodel gets trigger_ or func_ in front of it, anything else is a point entity(the point sized triggers are a exception to this for obvious reasons). The size of monsters can be grabbed from in game if it's needed, but as a general guide things are either shambler sized or enforcer sized - the vermis is the only real exception to my knowledge. 
you actually sent round emails containing descriptions of most of the new stuff when developing quoth 2. I can probably fish out all the info and post it in this thread when I get home tonight if that's ok. 
'Till you're blue in the face Preach, 'till you're blue in the face 
Yeah, So Where's The Mapping Tutorial? 
As I said, I know the bulk of the documentation is done. I know where it is. Thank you. :)

Why not decompile the progs so you can put together a working .def whilst waiting for the approved version?

Why don't you try to dig your way to China with a spoon?

Look, as I've said, I appreciate the effort that has gone into Quoth/2. I understand that this is a project done in people's spare time and I would neither expect nor demand anything more.

I would simply rather wait to have the complete info before I start making .def files or maps, rather than trying to piece together info from web pages, forum posts, map sources, emails or decompiled source code!

This is not just laziness talking - given that I wanted to make a .def file to share (since that hasn't been done yet), I wanted to make sure the information was complete before doing so.

If that makes me sound like an ungrateful bastard, so be it. I'm not in a hurry though, and I don't have a Quoth/2 map on the go, so I have the luxury of waiting. If the docs are never completed, obviously I'll deal with it in one way or another, but you won't hear me bitching about it.

p.s. thanks for the extra info, Preach. :) 
"'Till you're blue in the face Preach, 'till you're blue in the face"

I tried pointing my editor at that web page but it didn't seem to parse correctly. 
Well I Think That There's Plenty Of Info Around 
I didn't have any real problems implementing the wider range of features Quoth2 has to offer into my last map! The tutorial at was very informative, and with a little savvy and common sense I was able to use the new stuff with no major problems, all of the gameplay added to the map in just a couple of good sessions (before playtesting that is). The map sources were very usefull, and I found the map source for the breakables to be highly usefull too, a real good way of getting the right effect for whatever situation you require.

I've never used a def file in my life, so I can't comment on that. 
I Predict That 
after I have finished the current rmx map I am working on I will be returning to Quoth straight away, with the intention of making a small episode, probably in no particular rush. I am getting busier all of the time, crikey, I've been mapping for about 11 months, and have made 10 maps and am currently working on an 11th. I was delighted to discover Quoth during the construction of the 1st release, I know that there is much more I can still do with it...
I dont see me kicking this habit of making Quake maps any time soon, but I will probably slow down some, the next project will be made slowly at my leisure, as a relaxing way to disconnect from my daily schedules... 
There's heaps of info on the web pages. More than I would have expected - very informative.

The def file isn't really any different to a FGD file (it's the same thing really, it's just in a different format).

Here's the point though, since it seems like it still isn't clear: It is impossible to create a complete .def file for Quoth 2, because the complete range of information is not available.

There's certainly enough info to make a map. There's not quite enough info to create a comprehensive .def file. That's really all I'm getting at.

If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing properly. If I'm going to make a .def file and distribute it, I want to make sure it's complete.

That is all. 
Fair Point! 
How about starting on it, taking it as far as you can with the info available, then getting Preach to fill in the gaps...

(I should have been a politician)

Then it's done, innit! 
Hey Man 
Don't oppress me with your common sense and logic!

(Real answer: because I'm lazy ;)

I could put most of it together this weekend I suppose. *grumble* 
Se�or Fribbles 
I was just wondering - I haven't a clue how you write a .def file. 
Yeah, I acknowledge you can't complete the fgd yet. But I can assure you that anything listed there, eg func_breakable, is fully documented, we shouldn't be adding anything more to that entity when the documents are updated. I didn't realise you'd be able to knock something out within a weekend, I figured it would take you longer to write it than it will for Kell to update. I had also been planning to post the playtester info Than mentioned in this thread to tide people over(I can't update Kell's website). Than, if you've got it all gathered together I'd love to see it here. 
Making .def Files 
It's pretty simple, it's just a text document with an entity definition something like this (see below). All that really matters is the first line, which defines the entity name, bounding box extents (or ? if it's a bmodel), and spawnflags.

The rest is basically just information for the mapper (a desription of the entity and the list of keys). It's optional, even the key list, since in Radiant you have to manually add your keys every time regardless of whether that info is there or not (it's just helpful for the mapper to have that info, of course!)

Basic secret door. Slides back, then to the side. Angle determines direction.

"open_once" - stays open when triggered
"1st_left" - 1st move is left of arrow
"1st_down" - 1st move is down from arrow
"no_shoot" - only opened by trigger
"always_shoot" - even if targeted, keep shootable

"target" - all matching targets will be used
"killtarget" - all matching entities will be removed
"wait" - # of seconds before coming back
"delay" - waits # seconds before firing its targets
"t_width" - override Width to move back (or height if going down)
"t_length" - override Length to move sideways
"dmg" - damage to inflict when blocked (2 default)
"message" - prints message when touched

1 = medieval
2 = metal
3 = base

If a secret door has a targetname, it will only be opened by it's button or
trigger, not by damage.

So Yeah 
Again, all that matters is the first line (preceded by QUAKED), though you should note that func_msgboard wrapped the text in the post above.

The rest is purely optional information and can be in any format or order you wish. The text will appear in the entity dialogue in Radiant regardless of how it is written.

As you can see, most of the "work" involved in creating the Quoth2.def file will be a simple copy/paste job from the web page. 
Slightly More Info 
Posting this just in case anyone wants to know exactly how the .def file info is used, for whatever reason.

The structure is basically this:

/*QUAKED entity_name (colour) (bbox extents) spawnflag1 spawnflag2

Optional info...

The colour is just an RGB (0-1) colour for Radiant: it will only affect how it is displayed in the editor. If the entity has an associated brush model, the bbox info will be replaced with a ?

Here's 2 examples, a point entity and a bmodel, which will demonstrate this:

/*QUAKED item_spikes (0 .5 .8) (0 0 0) (32 32 32) BIG
25 ammo points (spikes) for Perforator and Super Perforator.

"big" gives 50 instead of 25

/*QUAKED func_episodegate (0 .5 .8) ? E1 E2 E3 E4
This bmodel will appear if the episode has already been completed, so players
can't reenter it.
Fair Enough 
I use Worldcraft and have written a few .fgd which are the equivalent.

Looks to be the same tedious task, but in a different format. 
it has come up a few times before, and may be useful for Worldcrafters to know. When you see 't1', 't2', 't3', etc, as target names in source maps, that is the result of Radiant filling in the name field when you are too lazy to name the entities yourself. Radiant links the hunter entity to its target entity with a line in the editor window so it isn't difficult to keep it organized while mapping. 
I have wondered how they managed to organise all those cut names. 
ToeTag does that as well. Just FYI if you're on a Mac! :) 
Quick question on the Sentinel monster. Here's what the web page says:

classname: monster_sentinel
health: 150
size: small
ranged: lasers/nails
melee: none
special: flying

The above indicates that it can fire lasers, nails, or both. What controls this? Is it set by spawnflags or keys, is it implied by the worldtype in worldspawn, or does the code just choose and/or switch at runtime? 
By Spawnflag 
Yeah, spawnflag 4 makes it into a nail sentinel, default is a laser sentinel. 
New Entity Details 
Here's some info on the omitted entries, tide people over until the official writeup:



These two entities send a command to a client's console and execute it. The info_command is a point entity which sends the command when triggered, and the trigger_command is a brush based trigger which sends it when touched. Set the "message" key to the commands that you wish to send to the player, followed by the newline escape code: "\n". For example, "message" "fog 0.1 0.2 0.2 0.4\n" will set the fog level in engines that support fog.

If spawnflag 2 is set on these entities, then the command will only be sent to the player who triggers or touches the entity when this event is triggered in coop games. Otherwise, the command will be sent to all the clients on the server. A trigger_command behaves like a trigger_multiple in all respects but message, so use wait to control how frequently the command can be sent, add a target to trigger other events, and so on.


info_command_server works in the same way as info_command except that the command is sent to the server rather than the client. In single player games the client and the server are all on one machine, so there is little difference in sending a command to the server or the client. In multiplayer games the distinction becomes important, because on a dedicated server even sending a command to all the clients will not send it to the server. You may have to experiment to find out exactly where a command should be sent. As a general guideline, commands that affect rendering such as fog and bf, commands prefixed r_ and gl_, or commands that affect client input, prefixed cl_, should be sent to the client. Commands prefixed sv_ or host_, which affect physics and similar, should be sent to the server.


This is a more specialised entity for sending a command once to a client each time they touch it, but not again until they leave and enter the trigger again. As with trigger_command, put the desired command into the "message" key. Since sending commands like this over the network can be bandwidth intensive, it is recommended that this trigger be used to set effects for regions of maps. For example, setting fog in one half of your map can be accomplished by placing a trigger_command_contact with the desired fog level as its message over that half of the map, and a trigger_command_contact with "fog 0 0 0 0" as the message over the other half. If the regions you want the commands cannot be covered simply by one trigger, it is enough to cover each entrance to the area with a pair of triggers, one for the way in and one for the way out.

The most important caveat for this entity is that you must ensure it is not possible to touch two trigger_command_contact entities simultaneously. If you do, then both commands get sent every frame, which is bad for performance, and might be noticable to the player in the case of commands like "bf". If you have multiple commands to issue at once, combine them into a single message with each command seperated by semicolons. In the case described above where you have a pair of triggers to toggle some setting, make sure they are separated by more than 32 units so that the player can only touch one at a time. 
Part 2 


The sounds a func_train makes can now be customised. Set "noise" to the path of the desired sound the train will make while in motion. This should be a looping sound file. Similarly set "noise1" to the sound the train should make when motion ends.

Rather than set the speed at which the train should move, you may instead set the "duration" key, which will move the train at the speed required to make the journey take "duration" seconds between each path corner. If you need to specify the duration of each journey from path corner to path corner, see the path_corner entry below.

The "count" key allows you to create clones of the func_train. Each one will start at the next free path corner until "count" clones have been created(in addition to the original) or until each path corner of the circuit has a train.


if TRAIN_SMOOTH is set, will not pause (unless wait is set) on path_corners. It will not apply damage either when blocked, you must use the TRAIN_BLOCKABLE flag to make it cause damage when blocked.


Set "duration" on a path_corner and any func_train which visits this corner will inherit the value of "duration" set. This means it will take "duration" seconds to travel between path_corners from that point onwards. By having each path_corner set duration, you can control the lengths of each stage of the train's journey. The train will use the duration or speed it is given initially for it's first journey between path corners, it will not inherit the duration of it's starting target.

The "event" key can be used to trigger an event when a func_train leaves this corner. Set "event" to the targetname which you wish to trigger. This doesn't trigger if the train arrives and stops with a "wait".

setting "wait" will cause monsters to pause for that number of seconds on the path_corner. while they are waiting, they will turn to face whatever angle the path_corner has set.
if "wait" is set to -1, monsters will stop there forever, and turn to face whatever angle the path_corner has set.


info_screenshake now shakes ALL player's screens (not just the one who triggered it) in a radius around it's origin.

The entity is the same as before, except you now can use the "height" key to specify how large a radius to affect player's screens.

"noise" specifies the looping sound to be played while the entity is active and "noise1" specifies the sound played when it ends. Set both to misc/null.wav to make the effect silent.



This is basically an invisble func_wall that can be toggled on and off indefinitely.
The "noise" key is used to specify the sound effect played when the wall is triggered and "noise1" is for the sound played while the wall is actually blocking the player's movement. "noise2" is the sound to play when a player touches/takes damage from the wall. Add these in the format "weapons/lhit.wav" ( the "/sound/" bit is automatically added by the engine ). The wall can also be set to inflict damage on the player every "wait" seconds, with "dmg" specifying how much damage per hit. Default values are 0.5 and 0 respectively.

Spawnflag 1 means that the wall begins non solid, and will become solid once triggered. Spawnflag 2 turns on the particle effect, making this into a forcefield. While the func_togglewall is solid, a particle effect will scroll across it. The "worldtype" key takes values from 0 to 5 specifying the direction the effect scrolls;up, down, east, west, north or south,. The "colour" key should be a quake palette index specifying the colour of the particles. "speed" specifies the speed at which the wave should travel. "style" specifies the number of particles that should be generated per second. Take care that style is not set too high, or the player will be flooded with particle messages, causing lag in network games.

If the wall does not have a particle effect, spawnflag 4 will change the type of solid object that the func_togglewall is. By default a func_togglewall blocks line of sight to monsters and has a shape matching the brushes it is built from. With spawnflag 4 it does not block line of sight and has a bounding box shape like a trigger, so it is a cuboid aligned to the axes of the world large enough to cover the whole extent of the brushes it is made from. If you are using this spawnflag, construct the object from a single, unrotated cuboid brush to see the shape of it correctly. 
That begs the question though, what are the other spawnflags then?

So far I have only included spawnflag 1 as "ambush" which I assume is used here in the same way as the standard monsters.

If spawnflag 4 is used to turn the Sentinel into a nail guy, what are the other spawnflags used for?

Are there any other new spawnflags for any of the other monsters? The Quoth web page does not specify any new spawnflags for any of the monsters as far as I can see. 
I just realised I didn't even have the complete range of spawnflags for the standard stuff, let alone the new ones. (The whole easy/medium/hard/not in dm)

I never noticed since I haven't done an SP map in Radiant! (Or at all..)

So yeah, anyone got a list of all the spawnflags (new and old? ;) 
Monster Flags 
There are the general flags added to all monsters here:

I don't think any individual monsters have new spawnflags. Also all the coop/not in skill level/not in dm apply, but those get applied to every entity. The monsters in quoth1 tended to have their own keys rather than spawnflags, like the dangle key for vorelings.

Spawnflag 2 was skipped because that is also ambush. The ID people screwed up and made spawnflag 1 crucified for zombies, so to make an ambush zombie you give it the second spawnflag. This will in fact work on any monster, both in original quake and quoth. 
Thanks again for the info Preach! 
Fribbles, here's what I have for those standard flags:

SF_NotInEasy = 256,
SF_NotInNormal = 512,
SF_NotInHardNightmare = 1024,

I think "DM only" is all of those combined (so, not in any skill level - only DM). It's not a real spawnflag, just a side effect (I think). Or, obviously, not setting any of them will also let the entity appear in DM which is why your DM maps worked. 
Not In Deathmatch 
Not in deathmatch is 2048, it's a different flag. Quoth adds

coop only = 4096
not in coop = 8192

which are the next two flags. The quoth coop flags don't work quite as efficiently as the built in ones, mostly with regard to precaching things. If all the shamblers in your map had not_in_easy, then the shambler models wouldn't get precached in easy skill. The same can't be said for the coop flags, as it's done by the qc code, not the engine. Hopefully other than that the effects are the same. 
Could you respond to my email pretty please? 
One More 
Details for the info_trap entity, which is quite complex:


This entity allows you to create highly customisable shooters along the lines of the spikeshooter in regular Quake.
if set, will not start until triggered. Will also turn off when triggered again.

info_notnull to shoot towards. Theoretically, you could target monsters or func_trains... This is only the initial direction. If "tracking" is set, projectiles will eventually curve toward the activator.

delay between shots

delay for first shot

determines the speed of the projectile

0 = None, 1 = Vore style, 2 = Death Lord/Rocketeer style

0 = Flying, 1 = Ballistic (Explode on Impact), 2 = Bounce (noise2 sets bounce sound, duration sets fuse time)

Defaults to 1. This is the least amount of damage the projectile will cause

If set, damage will be between 'mindamage' and 'maxdamage'. Maxdamage is at least mindamage

Makes this projectile explode. Higher values increase radius and damage. (Player rockets are 120 for reference)

Sets the sound to play when firing

Sets the sound to play when hitting

Sets the sound to play when bouncing (only applicable with style=2)

How long the fuse should burn before exploding

This is how much damage will be multiplied when the shooter hits func_breakables. This is so shooters can break func_breakables fast, without needed to be overpowering strong and kill the player in one shot.

Whether projectile should glow, 0 = Don't glow, 1 = glow

String for obituary message, "was zapped by a trap" outputs "Player was zapped by a trap"

Various preset values for common projectile settings. Preset settings simply replace default settings. Can be overridden selectively.
0 - No preset
1 - Player Rockets
2 - Player Grenades
3 - Player Plasma
4 - Player Nails
5 - Player Super Nails 
That Just Leaves 
func_door_button, which sounds like it's related to doors somehow... 
It's a regular func_button except that it can be attached to a door, so that the pair of them move together. This is basically for making lifts with attached buttons. While the door is in motion the attached button and any other buttons which target the door are disabled.

Set this key to the targetname of the door you wish to attach the button to. If you require several doors, each with their own attached buttons but all of them affected by by the same trigger, then give them a unique targetname and use targetname2 to give all the doors a single name to trigger them with. In all respects besides this key, the func_door_button is identical to a regular button, and the usual keys of wait, delay, target apply. 
You just gave me an idea... 
So why does Quoth2's ambient_generalpurpose precache that one machine sound instead of drip1.wav as specified? Placing a regular ambient_drip entity somewhere in the map seems to fix it though. 
And what's with those "lr_strt.wav not precached" warnings every time doors have sounds 0? 
Sounding Off 
The machine sound is always precached regardless of any entities you add, so that it's first on the list for some protocol message hacking. Not sure why drip1.wav isn't being precached if you've set it in the noise field, I've just made a test map in which this sound works.

I also included a door with 'sounds 0' and I get no warning messages. "doors/ir_strt.wav" is the noise for 'sounds 5', but if that was the cause then it would be precached. You're gonna have to send me the map file with these problems, as I can't replicate them myself. 
Oh, I didn't know there's a 'sounds 5' option (as well as 'sounds 6' which uses er_strt/stop), especially since none of the sounds are included in the Quoth 1/2 paks.
I'll send you the map file later on. 
Sounds To Me 
Sounds to me like you're trying to do some hacky stuff with the noise fields to support custom sounds on your door. This isn't necessary in quoth, leave the sounds field at 0, and set noise1, noise2 to the desired effects. They will be precached by the progs if you do this, so you don't have to worry about including them with another entity. 
Yeah, I'm using sound hacks. Setting the sound fields to 0 did the trick.

As for the ambient_generalpurpose sounds, I don't know what I did apart from moving some entities up the list but for some reason it works now. Odd. 
play_sound_triggered as well. 
How do I make a door button stick to a door that starts open? 
Place the button in line with the starting position of the door(the "closed" position). Not very intuitive, but the buttons don't take account of the spawnflags of the door. In theory this could be changed, but if I did that now, then you'd be put in the position of making a map that works with the current progs, or one that will work with a new one. 
Discovered 30 Minutes After Posting 
New issue: It appears from the documentation that trigger_relay can't use the broadcast flag. Yet, when I rename it to trigger_once (so I can set the notouch flag), the entity mvoes to the origin and becmes unselectable by clicking on it (GTKR 1.5.0). I must be missing something here... 
Relay Race 
The documentation might be a bit misleading then, because the broadcast flag does work on a trigger_relay, it should work on any of the regular entities used for activating targets. Myself and Kell would like to add that we cannot be held responsible for editor bugs that result from attempting to make a Quoth map : - ). 
Does "cnt" work for all triggers? I mean to autoremove a trigger after n uses. 
What, A Cnt? 
No, that was only added to trigger_hurt, and I didn't know it was there until now. Adding it to trigger_multiple/all triggers is certainly something to think about for Quoth part 3 though. 
While We're At It 
Finally being able to toggle triggers is something to think about for Quoth part 3! 
I Remember 
it being a neat little feature, but a bit limited for trigger_hurts; only really good for making health generators.

The multiple targeting features mean the mapper can just killtarget whatever they like, but an internal thing (to the trigger) would make it simpler and avoid potential logic fuck-ups. 
It Can Stay A Trigger_relay Then 
I was wrong about "that just leaves". I've also noticed that info_groupspawn and info_multispawn aren't described in here yet. Because it's not obvious to me: which one is the old func_hordespawn, and what does the other one do? 
Coop Switch? 
The documentation specifies the following:

coop_only = 4096
not_in_coop = 8192

However, my own experiences, combined with examining the source to e1m2quoth tells me that the opposite has been implemented, namely:

not_in_coop = 4096
coop_only = 8192

This could be a serious shock to any mapper that doesn't do lots of testing, and a source of confusion to any mapper that does. Was a definite wtf moment for me... 
Info_multispawn And Info_groupspawn 
Both of these entities are for spawning multiple monsters(or items are supported now) from a single entity. Combined with corpse removal or judicious killtarget use, this lets you juggle entities in a large map. They differ in the position and way they put the monsters into the map once triggered - the multispawn teleports the monsters in one at a time from the origin of the object; the groupspawn teleports a whole squad in at once.


Quoting from the old documents on func_hordespawn:

This entity spawns them in one at a time from the same point (it's origin). The entity will only spawn a monster if there is room, and will wait if there isn't. Once it is activated, it will spawn until it has created the amount of monsters specified.

The value for "spawnclassname" and "spawnfunction" should be the classname for the type of monster to be spawned e.g. monster_demon1. Both of these values must be added and both must be the same. Only one type of monster can be spawned form each func_hordespawn.
Specify the number of monsters to spawn with "count". Default is 3.

Key change here, the default value of "count" for an info_multispawn is 1 instead of 3. Note that if you use the old name of func_hordespawn then the default remains 3. This is the only difference between these two entity classes, and the latter only exists for legacy support. So don't include it in entity definition files "just for completeness".

The "wait" key as usual is used to specify the pause between each spawning.

If you want to have different types of monster spawning into a horde, you can use multiple func_hordespawns but you cannot place them on top of each other without risking different monsters getting stuck.

It should be added that only the following keys get transfered from the info_multispawn to the monsters spawned from it:

For anything more sophisticated(if you're trying some entity hack for example), you need to add the entity in the regular manner.


All the info about setting spawnclassname, spawnfunction, count and which keys are transfered is common to both these entities.

The wait key is not used. Instead, the monsters are spawned in a grid starting from the origin of the entity. The entities are spaced "lip" units apart, and the rows are "t_width" units wide in total. So to get a 3x2 block of monsters 64 units apart, set "lip" to "64" and t_width to "192" You may have to experiment a little to get the placement and values correct. (thanks to Kinn for this idea) 
Yeah, the documentation has them transposed, from the source:

float NOT_IN_COOP = 4096;
float COOP_ONLY = 8192;
thks for the hard work Preach 
And those that dig the deepest ditch get awarded a bigger shovel :) 
Is a great piece of work, so thanks to Kell, Necros and Preach for the time and effort. 
2.1 Patch 
Ok, we've had you waiting a lot time, but there was one glitch that took this long to iron out. I now present to you the Quoth 2.1 patch:

Drop the pak2 in with pak0 and pak1. There's a full list of fixes included, but the main ones are fixing the info_bomb crash and including the default earthquake sounds.

Another big change is that info_rubble/func_breakable entity now support a "dmg" key which sets how much damage they do on contact, and setting this to 0 makes rubble do no damage. Now, I know in this thread I argued forcefully for damage to be non optional, but Kell persuaded me with a more compelling argument: the entity as it stands is so flexible in terms of types of debris it makes, that it should be able to accommodate both things that inflict damage and things that do not. So that change is in, and I don't think too many people will bemoan it.

Many thanks to Than and Ricky for doing the playtesting on this, hopefully there are no huge bugs left. Enjoy. 
The source code will not be released. 
Quick question: How can I get all the information I need to map for Quoth 2 in GtK? I apparently only have enough for Quoth 1. 
Source Pt 2 
say i were to graft bits of it from a decompiled progs dat and tidy them up to make them useable, would i be allowed to use them in my own mod providing all due credit is given?

(i'd kinda planned on doing this anyway but wanted to have a clean conscious about it ;p ) 
You are destroying the positive-sum game that is sharing! I hope Richard Stallman slices you in half with a katana! 
Figure It Out Yourself, You Lazy Asshole 
Absolute bullshit.

Thanks for the contribution to the community, fellas. 
they dont want to release the source cause people will criticize and de-construct it publicly on the thread 

Thanks for the contribution to the community, fellas.

The mod is the contribution to the community. I beg of you to accept this, rather than ask for more. If you have any other criticisms, then you know my e-mail address. 
just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, my comment was intended for the guy who constantly has his hat in hand asking for things, not for you, a person who contributed quite a bit to Quake mapping by making great maps and raising the standards we are all obliged to keep to. 
Shit, I thought you were being sarcastic. 
i will cry :p


negative joke... Quoth died for me since what happend with the base i dont give a shit...

just want to thks Preach for all the work he made to finish Quoth2 content. 
Kell / Preach 
Thanks a lot for the update: you rock... 
oh sorry and thks Kell to for all the work to :\ 
I presume you to be directing your slander at me! Well, do consider the fact that if something is free, modifiable, and costs nothing, then everyone can easily have their own eternal copy! And furthermore, we can instigate fun offshoots of this mod! (Just imagine: "Deer Hunter XXIV, The Bobs' Revenge!".) It's almost like we all would have our own REPLICATORS. But we won't use them for steaks and beans, we use them for MAPPING!

I don't like the idea of the Q1 mapping community becoming reliant upon a closed-source binary blob. Let's say it's 2012, Quake is still around (Shub willing), and Preach et al. have left the henhouse, like so many before them. And, it just so happens that you want to add a feature to Quoth. What do you do then? What can you do? Do you edit the source and release your update?

But you can't add a feature to quoth now either, so that's not really any different. 
Seeing how much time and energy the Quoth team constantly invests in their creation, I can not imagine them disappearing some day, leaving no trace and neither the sources behind. It's a quite unrealistic fear, don't make it worry you. 
I have to be honest, your response was exactly the right way to be persuasive when arguing for open software. I wouldn't blame the Quoth coders right now if they were experiencing a tinge of guilt after that!

I've benefited enormously over the years from open source software, but I also have no problem with those who, as long as they are in accordance with contractual obligations, decide to keep their methods to themselves. Every artist, craftsman, coder develops their own methods that give them personal advantages, and thus, they may not be in as secure a place in their lives as a Carmack to be public about them, and, ultimately how these matters are handled are through personal choices (Que: Freedom of Choice).

It may very well be that Kell, Necros and Preach are in secret negotiations with Id to make an official Quake/Quoth expansion with an experimental Quake engine that Carmack has tooled together over his summer holiday, and releasing the QuakeC code before the commercial product is out would undermine their efforts. That is the best case scenario I could think up, but I'm just sayin' I don't assume to know all factors that are involved in their decision. 
What exactly is it that you gain by keeping the source closed? Any of the original coders cares to explain? 
Re: 2.1 Patch 

First of all, thanks for the update! But...

I just loaded a saved game from Ricky's Slave and it still crashed when I fragged a Bob. I didn't see this issue in the list of fixes. I hope it wasn't forgotten? (Or will it work if I restart the level?) 
(Just imagine: "Deer Hunter XXIV, The Bobs' Revenge!".)

Well, those sorts of mods, and mods of, were all over the place a few years ago, and didn't get played much. Some of them weren't that bad, but its the ones that stuck to solid themes and did them well that have stood the test of time, pretty much like Quake itself.

jdhack - Sounds like it is the savegame, but I don't know. Try a god/notarget run on a fresh game and kill a bob to see if it crashes.

If it is the savegame maybe it can be opened in a text editor and modified somehow.

The two things I've just suggested will probably be clarified and corrected in post #286. 
Re: 285 
No 284 - Jdhack 
I have no problems playing a new game from scratch.

Must be the save-game..... 
Or Not 
Bob Crash 
Yeah, it must have been the save game. No problems starting from scratch. 
Yeah, the save preserves the thing that creates the bug, so I'm afraid you can only start again unless you want to delve into editing the save file itself...not recommended. 
Preach Continues To Pretend 
that he didn't see anyone ask why they're not releasing the source 
Seeing how much time and energy the Quoth team constantly invests in their creation, I can not imagine them disappearing some day, leaving no trace and neither the sources behind. It's a quite unrealistic fear, don't make it worry you.

How can anyone who's been around Quake for as long as you have say anything like the above with a straight face?

(Where is FatController? Where is What about all of stuff you have at Quaddicted where the author's harddrive died so the source code is in the abyss? When is the last time aguirRe posted here?)

That whole paragraph is a roflcopter.

As nice as Quoth is, if it is going to be closed source the funeral should be today and it should be given a proper burial.

The entire idea of mappers investing time in a closed source single player expansion kit is rotten to the core.

If Quoth was FOR the single player mapping community, the source should be released with whatever onerous restrictions the author feel are appropriate, not make people wonder if in 2012 some bug or simple but important improvement or god forbid some operating system compatibility problem with, say, a 128-bit processor or new OS or some client is impossible to fix or impossible to even investigate.

Better off taking CustEnts, Hipnotic, Rogue, Zerstorer and Lunaran's Enforcers (I'm in the Mega Enforcer fan club) plus say, the Cyberdemon mod and making an open-source enhanced single player than investing months in building maps for a mod with potentially a questionable closed-source future. 
Another Word For Closed-source Is ... 
future abandonware. 
Well, Silly Me Is Just Wasting Time Defending Someone Who Is Not Him 
It all started when people wanted to have/create entity "files" for their editors. Now it became some sort of religious open-source war?

Is having the source code to a Quake mod really worth constantly harassing its authors? And what do you think that will accomplish?

The reasons why the source code must be released sound a bit farfetched to me. Future incompatibilities? I am not a programmer, but the progs.dat seems to be quite independant from anything.

If there really is nothing but hate from some people towards a closed-source Quoth, then maybe they want to nicely convince the team to send the source to 1-2 trusted people and allow them to release it if the team vanished.

How could Quake even survive all those cruel years when its map sources were unreleased? Why didn't we just decide to bury it right away for being closed-source... 
It's Really Simple 
Releasing the source: benefits the community.
Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

As much as it would perhaps be nice to happen, I don't forsee Quoth becoming a commercial project anytime soon, so, why keep it closed? What do you gain? 
I agree with Jago...

the original source BELONG TO IDSOFTWARE!!!

So why many secret with a source that is original from a game? that is always possible to decompile... but i think the source should be release... could teach many other people to make there own modes!!!

and what Quoth team gain? personally i don�t like Quoth... and when base pack came and all the problem that have been I start hating more... slow game play and boring most of the monsters... so i don�t give a shit about Quoth... ID1 FOREVER!!!

but i still think u don�t have the right to keep the source doesn�t belong to Quoth anyway... is from ID. Is something like I make lots of maps for Quake and then release then under my name and sell...

we all invested time on this game and nobody was expecting to get paid right? :\

i don�t want to put more hot water in the boil... but the troth

I'm Confused. 
How about it's their decision and the rest of you fuck off?

I mean seriously, regardless of the reasoning behind it, they've decided not to release the source. What is attacking them going to achieve?

Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions. How do I get it to compile? What does this bit mean? Please help me add retardedly stupid feature X to your mod?

More importantly, remembering that this is meant to be a solid and consistent base for mappers and players alike, there's not going to be multiple versions floating around with 2 or 3 variables tweaked or 1 shitty monster added. When you release a Quoth map, you know it will work with the version of Quoth that everyone else has (it's the same as yours).

But why should the authors have a say? Oh yeah, wait, it's their mod. Shit. So all of this is beside the point, really, isn't it? 
"From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions."

I can bet releasing the source is going to stop the most annoying question of them all, that being the "When are you releasing the source?" question.

I do aknolwedge the author's right to release/not release the source as he/they see fit, it is after all, indeed their own work and they don't "owe" the community anything. However, when the game engine and the game .qc code is open source, I find it very morally and ethically questionable to release derivative works as closed source.

When it comes to engine modifications, such behaviour is prohibited by the GPL, however the .qc code does not come with GPL's requirements, making it perfectly legal to not release the source to modified .qc code. Being perfectly legal however, in no way, shape or form makes it a morally right thing to do. 
I Think It's Shitty That Everyone Demands The Source 
I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source. And DEFINATELY NOT IN THIS FORUM!!!

You may aswell chop your own head off and mount it on a spear to ward people off. Cant you imagine the beating it would take.

Besides the point, why can't people enjoy Quoth for what it is? I'm sure that if the guys ever announce that it is finished then they will release the source. If if they stop developing it. Until that time comes why should they release the source?!?!?

Everyone here who is hating on Preach and Kell needs a cold shower.

Trinca / Other haters - What the hell do you care if the source is released. Are you planning a mod?!!! You're just jumping on another "lets bash Quoth/Kell" train.

Kell - Preach : I personally feel embarassed for the way you are treated. Nice mod. :) 
Releasing Source Code Is A Double Edged Sword. 
Just look at the trillions of new Quake engines that have been released, all promising to add amazing new features to Quake but actually just doing the same [usually ugly] shit over and over again. Obviously it gives the community a lot more options, but to be honest when the choice comes down to "Which spangly new Engine makes me want to puke less!?", is that really such a good thing?

Okay I'm exaggerating a little, but I still think it's a valid fear for somebody who's invested countless hours of their free time creating something. They don't want to see it being raped -- which it will be, at the VERY least once.

Having said that, I would like to get my hands on Quoth so that I can start work on my AMAZING new Quake mod, 'Quath'. It's going to knock everybody's socks off. I don't want to give too much away right now incase anybody steals my amazing ideas, but as a teaser let's just say there's going to be a new type of Enforcer that shoots Shamblers out of his cock. 
It's The Attitude 
"It's miiiine, ALLL MIIIIIINE!"

Now how would you feel if ID didn't release the mapping tools and the engine source? It is after all, their own work, right? I bet you would still take your "business" (mapping interests) elsewhere. 
I think the open source debate is a good one, and it's very healthy to question the pros and cons of it.

It only becomes repugnant when Open-Source-Fanboys start moralizing and harassing. There is no 'right' answer, so ultimately the decent thing to do is respect an author's personal discretion. They're hardly going to want to give their creation to the community as a gift if they feel they've been bullied in to it. 
Open Source Isn't About Modding Something 
It's about the assurance that time in invested in something doesn't go down the shitter.

Case in point, that one RickyT23 map in December that was awesome and then didn't work with Quoth2.

@ RickyT23

I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source.

It's a long tradition of releasing the source code for things actually meant to benefit "the community".

Quake's original code: released
Hipnotic: released
Rogue: released
Zerstorer: released
Cust Ents: released

2 years ago I was told by someone who had heard that when Quoth was "done", the source would be released. I'll ask him sometime what the source of that information was.

My point ISN'T that the Quoth source should be released.

My point IS that if the Quoth source isn't going to be released, I think people should invest their time in something else that has an assured continuity.

Having green and red enforcers available isn't really special enough to support a dead-end mod.

Yes, that is slight over simplification of what Quoth does but I've seen the killer results of closed source stuff enough in Quake it blows my mind people still are willing to hang themselves with that rope. 
roulfffffffffff i used a mod in trincasp3 with the help of LTH that was a great guy and share the source with me, and i share with HT that add me some monsters to code :+)but of course originnal source still from LTH and i didn�t ever write that was MY CODE!

anyway in there own decision and i honestly dont give a shit :p

i just dont agree so nothing more to say.

Stay well

p.s-> RickyT23 stfu u Quoth bitch ;) 
anyway i think

Original code is from Necros and i never see a map of Necros with source code...

Kell just make models

and Preach fix the Quoth code becouse necros quit Quake and is lazy...

so Kell and Preach are kind of out...

Is a pitty honestly... Necros is one of the best mappers i ever saw in Quake and he complitely quit :\ for a fucking faget game.

me cry :(

Necros please return with a fucking great map of burn in doom3 :p 
Btw, Not An Open Source Zealot And Not Hating On Anyone 
I've seen way too many sob stories where something is closed source for all the wrong reasons and ...

1) Someone leaves the "scene"
2) Something dumb happens involving a computer or a hard drive
3) Something else happens

There are so few QuakeC modders I'd bet $10 no one would ever be modding Quoth and bet $20 within 5 years the authors wouldn't even care or if someone did.

But that's not my point.

No one is omniscient. Unforeseen bad things happen. Unforeseen good things happen. If the source is available, the bad ones can't happen and the good ones can happen.

I cannot name a single closed source mod over 3 years old that is actively developed for Quake and I think.

Quake will be around a very long time. 
and to elaborate a bit more, that means that once the authors abandon the project, due to whatever reasons, nobody will be able to bugfix/maintain, perhaps even run/compile (less likely with QuakeC than normal C) it anymore.

It's not a question relevant today, but it may be one time. Such binaries become like black boxes, frozen in time.

On the other hand, QuakeC isn't C, the tools aren't developed much, it is cross platform (one of Quake's big pluses compared to Quake2 - a progs is a progs, on any system, while a Windows dll is just that and often contains MS specific extensions), and even though engines move along, we can be pretty sure that most Quake engines will run any progs.dat even 50 years from now.

So it's probably not as problematic as a DLL would be. In principle though, Baker is right.

Quoth maps are tied to Quoth the progs.dat, among other things. Because of this, anyone making maps for Quoth (its intended use) can rightfully be concerned about them working and keeping working. This is where Quoth does owe the mappers a tiny bit. The mappers tie their work to the mod. id1 is open source, which is a tiny advantage from a technical point of view. Not for modding purposes, but to ensure its survival.

Right now, it's a hypothetical problem though. (Still, it could be nasty when it becomes a real one.)

Kell and co. could opensource the QC but stamp it "you may not use this code as a base for your own mod". People would borrow some code then, but add it to their mod instead of adding their mod to Quoth.

I admit that the open source / survival thing is a big enough point for me to consider switching my maps in progress away from Quoth. Didn't add too much Quoth stuff to my episode yet, just some smaller maps.

There are open source mapping toolkits like extras or whatever that one was called. I'm mainly interested in non-monster entities anyway. Another point is that you've still got to combine Quoth with QuakeC hacks for a number of things, like triggerable triggers, triggerable or silent teleporters, etc. So since I need to go to hacks half the time already, why not go to an opensource mod and hack it to my needs.

That means that, while we don't see any Quoth variants, we see a lot of maps with their own progs anyway, ie a lot of id1/extras etc variants, which NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT! ^^ And some of them would perhaps use a Quoth variant (Quoth + some hacks) if they could, with the result being a higher acceptance of Quoth (more maps using it.) I know this for a fact.

I subscribe to the theory that sharing makes stuff better, not worse by the way. Often the best user hacks can be returned to the official code, meaning the users de facto work for you, not against you.

It follows that open source would be beneficial, not detrimental, to the acceptance, development and survival of Quoth.

Just thinking out loud.

Notice I didn't demand anything. 
"Quake will be around a very long time."

i drink to that!!! ;)

i will keep mapping, less but i will keep and no more base maps ;) and i promiss more quality! 
If Im A Bitch Then What Are You?!?! 
Who says that when Quoth is "finished" or "taken as far as the developers are willing to take it" that they wont release the source?

Who says that Kell hasn't backed it up onto a disc or memory stick (?!)

They didn't release the source to Quake, Armagon etc etc until long after they were finished!!

And also

Case in point, that one RickyT23 map in December that was awesome and then didn't work with Quoth2.

If I remember correctly Preach acknowledged the problem straight away, and quickly promised a HOTFIX which has just been released.

I mean I could understand all of this worry (Baker) and animosity (others, Trinca) if they had abandoned the project and dissappeared, but they havent!! They are doing their thing!

What a thing to argue about.

Trinca - you have chopped off your own nose to "spite your face". 
Oh Dear 
how many people actually intend doing something with the source code? 
hehehe RickyT23 are you release pissed? or u joking like i�m? :p


nitin i will not even map for Quoth ;) i dont give a shit i just put my point of view :)

and i�m pretty sure that if depends of kell and preach maby the story was other... 
I mean I could understand all of this worry (Baker) and animosity (others, Trinca) if they had abandoned the project and dissappeared

You mean you could understand the worry after the shit hit the fan? How about making sure it doesn't while you're still at it.

@ Too few coders: Most mappers are hack***coders, too.

/shrug <--- final comment 
true but i�m pretty sure Kell is the best modeller that is still active in Quake... 
Im Not Pissed Off Guys 
I just dont like hearing people taking a bashing. I fail to see how they have done anything wrong. I think it's unfair to stand there and tell everyone what a buch of useless wankers they are when really they are the opposite!

They have done a lot of good work for the SP Quake community. They aren't prepared to get into bed with everyone, they just want to do what they have been doing for their own creative bedevilment. Which is the only good reason to create anything like this.

Everybody gets pissed off cause they want these guys to do things for them, and they have simply said "no" to everything which wasn't on their own agenda. Which is the only fair way of doing it. Everybody has been sooo demanding, mean, nasty, said lots of terrible things about them, and Quoth. Why?!?!

If you make a map and people get pissed off cause you didnt make it the way they wanted it, and you wont give them the mapsource so they can fuck with it.... Its so, sort of selfish and ungrateful.

So its easy for me to sit here and type about how I feel like they deserve a little more respect. 
Needless to say I fully agree with you: if players do not like what moders are providing, either just don't use it, or make your own mod... As well for mappers...

Quoth is for sure the best Quake mod ever, and even if some few people think it is not perfect, I think it is possible to live with it, as it is today.. damned it does not mean I don't want to see a Quoth3 soon ;) !

Kell / Preach, your mod rock, don't listen to them !! 
is also derespect ignore people emails...

and it was done from then... during base map pack... and i didn�t ask for any fucking update... just came up

was inertia fault!!! and he didn�t even map...
going to catch the fucking plain to put a fuclking bomb in US :p 
You're All 
Just flapping your mouths.

The Quoth gang may or may not release their source, it's their baby.

I've got my own opinions about all this.

I'll just say that there already have been a couple of modified Quoth releases, and nobody complained about them. 
Name That Mod 
No one is omniscient. Unforeseen bad things happen. Unforeseen good things happen. If the source is available, the bad ones can't happen and the good ones can happen.

I cannot name a single closed source mod over 3 years old that is actively developed for Quake ...

Quake will be around a very long time.


Is Baker right? Are there no closed source mods that are still alive? 
Im Sure Between Preach And Kell 
The project wont die (ie source lost in the rift of time forever). Plus what Ijed was hinting at....

Hmmm. I think Baker has a valid point though.
There's no harm in covering their backs, so to speak.... 
Nehahra Is Open Source 
and not exactly "alive". 
how many people actually intend doing something with the source code?

/me raises his hand weakly, having more or less stopped giving a shit at this point 
Maybe Private Email Conversations 
could be the way to pursue it? 
RickyT23 let�s go private baby!!! 
Done ! 
I already have 2 daughters: no way to try again for a new baby! I'm very reluctant to have another girl at home (I'm also unlucky I think...), it is already enough complicated as it is :P 
JPL my boys need womens... keep the good work :) 
Oh Dear Lord 
We don't need Trinca/JPL hybrids! No one at func should be replicating, period! 
they'd only be 1/4 trinca and 1/4 jpl... 
.. yeah, but it is also impossible, I would not let my daughters with Trinca's sons... if hissons are as pervert as he is... 
hehe :)

latins are all pervert they dont have many choises...

only if they find some faget in another not latin country :p 
Please, God, Stop Him 
My ex wife was Creek, and I have been with women of every race, even some of them without having to pay up front! So I don't know where that is coming from. 
Headward Thumpson 
Key representative of Gonzo mapping 
I meant Headhunter S.
Illiteracy ftw. 
Much Appreciated! 
what was the native american wedding like?

Also, quoth2: open source is good for the future. Perhaps a working compromise could be this: when the team (Necros and Kell and Preach) feels that "it's ready", whether that means that they are too tired to make new additions or that it really is complete, they can release the source to make sure it stays alive.

On the qw side of things there was the ktpro mod (closed source AFAIK) but it died and now everything is done with the open KTX. And it gets updated quite often, together with MVDSV, the server executable. In fact, the coders would like more developers to help them.

Also, there were some 64bit vista issues with the mod (the progs). So it's not as if mods can't give problems.

Just if you want to make sure your work lives on, make it open source after a while. 
In Front Of A Justice 
with only seven other people in attendance. Her decision, not mine. 
I am having a tough time setting this up in WC. So far, I have something like this in the FGD:

@PointClass size(-8 -8 -8, 8 8 8) color (128 128 128) = mapobject_mesh : "Custom Mesh"
mangle(string) : "Angle (x y z)"
frame(integer) : "Frame"
model(string) : "Sprite"
spawnflags(flags) =
1 : "Static" : 0
2 : "Solid" : 0

But Quake gives me an error:

No spawn function for:
Edict 9:
Origin '208.0 -352.0 -512.0'
Classname mapobject_mesh
Model progs/grill64.spr
Frame 1.0
Spawnflags 1.0

Any ideas? 
And I was so sure we eliminated all references to the old classname. It was renamed mapobject_grill when the sprite started including other textures than wire meshes. I guess that change didn't make it to the docs though...

(btw, that fgd looks really thorough, would love to see the full thing once it's done) 
Works like a charm, now :-)

I will upload the FGD after I get the rest of the kinks out... 
Entity Files 
As long as we're on the subject, are there radiant .def files for quoth anywhere? I have seen one mentioned but can't find it.

I considered making one myself, but it's a non-trivial amount of work, and certain things aren't obvious from the mapping tutorial, like which entities are point and which are solid. 
We tried to make the entity classnames instant indicators of what is and is not a brush-based entity. Anything with func_ at the beginning is a brush-based entity with the following exceptions:

(to conform with the hipnotic naming of these confusing things)

func_hordespawn (this name is depreciated though, for the reason that it is a point entity, use info_multispawn instead: )

func_something_point (these are obviously meant to be point entity versions of the func, for ease of use in hammer)

Similarly anything with a name beginning trigger_, other than trigger_something_point, is brush-based.

I think I'm right in saying that any other entity is point based(unless you're doing some diabolical entity hacks of course). 
Ok, it's been long sought after, even promised by a few people. But on Friday I got a snow day, and decided to do something productive with it. So I've made a fgd file which contains essentially all the Quoth entities. Try it now, for free, from:

This is beta quality, it's not been extensively tested (or spellchecked), and there are probably omissions. If you spot what you think is a glitch or mistake, let me know in this thread, and I'll try to revise it.

The enticing selling points:
* All the quoth monsters, with coopflags and teleport flags added.
* Full listings of the available textures in mapobject_grill and func_breakable rubble objects.
* Hints in the rotating object fields to remind you how to set them up
* Undocumented features???

I also read that GTK Radiant 1.5 supports loading fgd files, so those people aren't entirely left out in the cold. Which is probably best given the weather... 
Woot woot! Thanks Preach! Maybe I'll make ToeTag able to read FGD files as well as DEFs then... 
Quoth Part 2 Lights 
Cause errors with tyrelight. The color key if not set to zero causes the error (no light emitted). For tube and post lights I've found changing "color" to "skin" in the FGD works. For globe and marsh "skin" does not work no luck with "frame" either. Any ideas?? 
It Was Red And Yellow And Brown And Brown And Brown And... 
Well, we have a classic conflict here, that both the light tool and the mod claim rights to the field "color". The convention which is meant to be obeyed is that light tools use entity fields which begin with an underscore, and the later versions of tyrlight do just this. The same problem was found in the original quoth thread:
So if you can track down that newer version of tyrlight then you should be ok.

In a future version of Quoth, I will try to make sure that leaving color unset will enable you to set the frame directly. For now as a workaround, you could use a second light entity in the same place to cast the light. Alternatively, you can build the map without color set, light it, and then reset the color and recompile with -onlyents.

This post was brought to by the american spelling of colour, but grudgingly 
Thank You 
Func_setproperty Maybe? 
Have you guys thought about adding a new entity class that would allow the properties of an entity to be changed? I'm thinking of an entity that, when triggered, would perform a particular operation on a given field of its target entity ("operation" could be set, add, multiply, etc.)

This could enable a mapper to, say, dynamically change an ent's alpha value, or move it, or add health, take away ammo, etc...

Something like this:

"classname" "func_<whatever>"
"target" "scrag1"
"targetfield" "alpha"
"op" "1" /* --> add following argument to scrag1's .alpha */
"arg" "0.1"


"classname" "func_<whatever>"
"target" "tele1"
"targetfield" "target"
"op" "0" /* --> set value of tele1's .target to following argument */
"arg" "teledest2"

It seems to me [someone who doesn't map, and has a very minimal understanding of QC ;-) ] that it could be useful 
That Would Be Pretty Useful! 
I like the idea! 
there's an official FGD, that means someone can now make a .def!!!!!!1 
I think c_shot2.mdl is a bit gimpy? I noticed it while playing sm149_drew - there's a yellow strip at each side of the base of the barrel.

I opened the model in QME (Lite v3.1), and the tri at that spot seems to be in the wrong place on the skin. It's the most evident in frame 4.

Yeah, good catch! I'll have to fix that for future releases. 
Oh Wow 
That must mean that the entire pack must be quarantined and eliminated immediately! Shame on you Kell, Necros and Preach! SHAME!!!

I'm kidding. 
Speaking Of Gimpy... 
The skin in the shot I posted is how it appeared in QME that day. Today, there are almost twice as many tris. Weird.

Is there a more stable modeling app out there? What do you use?

Zwiffle: It's shocking, I know. Almost like these guys are mortal or something. ;) 
Modelling Tools 
My personal approach is to do as little in QMe as possible. So I use gmax to make my model, animate and skin it. Then I export it to MD3 format, and convert it from MD3 to MDL. There are two paths I know of to make that final conversion. Either you can use quark, if you can set it up correctly, but that is a bit of a pain. The alternative is a command line program which I wrote for the purpose.

Once you go down the path of creating your models in MD3 format and converting them to MDL, a lot of options open up because MD3 is a much more popular format. Most major 3d modelling packages have an export to it (3dmax, maya, blender to name 3). The only difficulty is knowing what you can't do in MDL but can do in MD3 - eg MD3 supports multiple skins but MDL doesn't. 
Don't You Miss Sajt's Awesome 
There is a typo in the official Quoth 2 FGD that causes tubelights not to load.

@PointClass size(-8 -8 -8, 8 8 8) base(Light, Target, Targetname, Static) = light_tubelight : "Tube light"
spawnflags(Flags) = [ 1 : "Initially dark" : 0 ]
color(choices) : "Colour of light object" : 0 =
0 : "Yellow-white"
1 : "Blue-white"
2 : "Red"

Also, I am having no luck with the other color options. I get yellow-white every time. (Same for postlights.) The greying out works, however. 
Sorry for the typo, will go fix it on my copy.

As for the color issue, you aren't having the same problem as
are you? 
I changed "color" to "skin" in the FGD for light_postlight and light_tubelight, and all was good.

Thanks! :) 
of all the threads the bot could have posted on... 
I'm hoping it's pertinent because Quoth Part 3 is about to be released ... ? 
Fix For Stars Skybox 
The JPEG artifacts in the otherwise great "stars" skybox were bugging me, so here is a fixed version where I filtered them out using GIMP: 
how to use that? 
Never mind, found the earlier posts. 
Please Fix: 
Knight melee attack range (should be when it hit the player, not from miles away).

Drole melee attack range (ditto)

Grenade Enforcer shotgun attack speed (should be less than instantaneous)

Bob Model (this is Quake not kiddie robot TV show).

...these are all broken / bugged. Everything else seems to work. Kthxbye. 
would break balance on existing maps. 
I guess I agree re drole/knight melee

but fuck, leave Bob alone. 
Enforcer Shotgun 
is pretty tough and always seemed a bit unfair for such a grunt, on the other hand it adds some challenge to a group of opponents which is otherwise not very dangerous. 
Would still be very powerful even if the enforcer didn't insta-fire. What are the damage stats for them anyway?? Do any new monsters do LESS ranged damage than the most powerful Vanilla Quake ranged attacks??

Don't forget they have grenades, are tougher, and supported by all the new base enemy too.

Bobs are gay, SCIENTIFIC FACT. They just don't look Quakey enough (most of the other new monsters do). They're annoying to fight but TBH a fixed model that's slightly larger than 3 pixels would fix that anyway. 
I doubt Preach will want to make any changes like that (nor would I) because they would unbalance older maps.

That's not to say I don't agree with some of these. My biggest regret was that all the new monsters are so strong. 
My biggest regret was that all the new monsters are so strong.

Because players are so used to "normal" monsters, because they knows very well how to own them, because players are so experimented now... all these may explain why new monsters are so strong, and why this create a real new challenge for players...

And it does not prevent mappers from using "normal" monster for weakest player in easy skill ;) 
That's The Wrong Logic 
Because not everybody is as skilled as the next one. Even seasoned players. A map should be balanced for everyone, and not punish "weaker" or casual players (admittedly, I made that mistake myself for a while).

All things considered, the Quoth monsters have to seen as supplements, like the occasional fiend or shambler for instance, not replacements for the regular enemies. But in quite a few maps, they are used predominantely in favor of the old ones, which, in the end, just makes the maps very hard and not fun. It's bad design, in my view.

Happens in other games, too. See the ZDoom bestiary, for example. Many of those monsters are terribly unbalanced and, as such, their often great potential is ruined. 
Shambler (on Other Monsters) 
I agree with your instincts on which monsters could be better balanced, but I think some of the fixes need to be different.

Knight melee attack range (should be when it hit the player, not from miles away).

I assume this is for the death guard. The slow overhead swing has quite a long range, but the regular attack has the same range as normal quake knights/death knights. I feel the latter attack is the problem, and so something else makes them harder to fight in melee than death knights. There will be a tweak to the thing I blame in the upcoming patch. Fans of the existing balance will find nightmare unchanged.

Drole melee attack range (ditto)

I think the problem is that the attack is often unavoidable even when you have space to manoeuvre. Droles have a shorter reach than shamblers, so I think monster run speed is to blame. I have an idea on how to give players an "out" without changing either run speed or melee range, but I need to test it first(it might not even be technically feasible).

Enforcer shotgun was tweaked in Quoth 2 to be a bit less dangerous, it was a known issue that we couldn't find a happy solution for. I have had one thought inspired by the death guard business, but again it needs some testing.

We already made a replacement bob model - it's called a sentinel : -P 
We already made a replacement bob model - it's called a sentinel : -P

Yeah... except Bobs are fast, mobile and rapidly firing, and Sentinels are pretty much floating spikeshooters. 
Melee Distance 
I suspect its the damage being caused too early in the animation of their melee as opposed to the actual range of it.

Playing against them I tend to think I've got a few frames before they'll hit me since the mesh isn't at the extent of its sword swing yet - but then get hit.

Don't mind the Drole though. You let that thing get close to you it's your own fault.

For the shotgun it'd help to telegraph it a bit more - playing a sound a bit earlier would add some very good 'oh shit!' moments and allow player to try and scramble out of the way, taking more damage.

As to enemy balance in general, it's a tricky one. Everyone likes shiny new stuff, especially when they're demons and monsters, shiny with slipgater blood.

So its hard not to get carried away and go too far. On an incremental mod like Qouth you can get stuck and be unable to tweak gameplay because of earlier maps without pissing people off... personally I'd just stomp all previous maps and deal with the backlash... imagine all the glorious map reworks!

In all seriousness though, making the monsters better balanced isn't going to hurt balance as much as you'd suspect. Typically this only breaks things when you make monsters tougher or weapons weaker - essentially the same thing.

Monster are made to die, not to kill the player. 
And B0b... I'm not a massive fan of the mesh either. Maybe removing the eyes would help.

I really liked the 40's robot in Rubicon2 and that didn't feel out of place.

Completely subjective though, and you can't please everyone. 
How much "balance" would be broken if their shotgun blast was split into, say, 6 consecutive shots, and the pre-attack wind-up was made longer?

This would effectively make them chaingun Enforcers... which sounds pretty badass. 
Sentinels are not replacement bobs - bobs are fun to fight, sentinels are not. 
Oh Well 
They are okay. Unless they come in groups and without cover. 
Says The Tarbaby Lover. 
haha, well, it's funny because the complaints about bob are basically exactly what bob is supposed to be.

He is supposed to be a hard to hit medium threat monster designed to slow down the player and force them to pick their shots. 
Defenders are fine when you are aware of them. Should more be a note to mappers to not be dicks and constantly place them in close surprise ambush positions. In close range with open ground circle strafing works fine.

Bob: "They're annoying to fight" err no, mobile enemies are awesome fun to fight and their death is great. The screechy sound is annoying though :(

I suggest adding:

> A 'non-boss' gug that doesn't have the earth quake attack, because A: unavoidable damage is super fucking lame and B: it makes health balance difficult. Could perhaps have reduced splash radius on it's projectiles, but I otherwise like the gug a lot. The earthquake just makes it too difficult to use as much as Shamblers or Droles :(

> Ammo pack item that doubles shell, nail and Cell capacity (not rockets though, 100 is fine there :p ). Keeping with Quoth's design, it would be a useful item for mappers that make levels with large monster counts but can be happily ignored by those who don't.

> Another item that upgrades the lightning gun making it pierce enemies. With that I think it would be more of a proper super weapon. As it is it's just another tier of nailgun which mappers never use.

> Extra shotgun would balance out the health of most of the new monsters being higher in places where quoth monsters are used more. But again apart from the Voreling I don't see much of an issue with that. You just need more shells :E

> A flashlight with unlimited battery :p 
I suggest all this shit as extra items that could be added so as to not affect any maps already using Quoth too :E 
Gug's Quake 
is a cool attack except that it still damages you when you are swimming. Did he shake the water too? 
Add RMQ. And Zer. And Shrak. 
I think I understand the decision of not releasing the source, now... 
Surely you should conclude the opposite? (: 
now how fun would a modular class system like Unreal's be. 
I like the Gug. He is ridiculously overpowered, but that just means he should be saved for proper crescendo moments. A weaker version would simply dilute the psychological effect of the stronger version.

Re: Flying Base enemies, I think my design preference would be to add another type of enforcer or grunt but give them a jetpack and a hyperblaster or laserbeam attack.

Ultimately, I think what we can all agree on judging by the renewed interest in this thread lately is that Quoth 3 is well overdue. :P 
haha, well, it's funny because the complaints about bob are basically exactly what bob is supposed to be.

He is supposed to be a hard to hit medium threat monster designed to slow down the player and force them to pick their shots.

Fighting bob and the sentinel is ok, but both models suck, look out of place.... Maybe just rip-off or mod Rubicon2 flying platformers, which are ace. 
does anyone have a copy or know where to get the quoth fgd? my backup hdd died a few months ago, and doing a google search for it gives me no results, except for this page and the link is dead :( 
Quoth2 Fgdmaybe 
I can't find the Quoth2 fgd anywhere on the net.
Should be the right one but I may have modified something.
file date is 6/14/09

If it's correct I'll send it to quaketastic

Why FGD & DEF files are not included with the official Quoth dev files? why!
BTW does anyone use that scorpion enemy?
and Leave bob alone, he's ok. If anything give me a weaker version of the vorling. One shot kill (there supposed to be bugs right?). How bout a skin and spawn flag for weak vorling and I'll drop 50 of them on the player. 
Weak Voreling 
That would be a horrible design decision. Players wouldn't know which kind of voreling they were fighting, which would be incredibly frustrating. 
Thanks Mechtech 
Weak Vorelings 
...would probably function about the same as necros zombies, and everybody loved those. To really work though you'd probably need a new skin, new sound set, and maybe even a new model possibly scaled down (which in turn would probably make them look like the terrorbites from time crisis. ehhh....)

Centroids have a few prominent appearances in dom3m1 and the other dom3 maps as well. 
Weak Voreling 
Just change the default one. Come on, surely that's the one change that everyone can agree on. 
I Disagree 
I like the Vorelings as they are and they do their job perfectly: being really annoying, sometimes dangerous and jumping everywhere. 
It's pretty silly having a head crab annoyance enemy thats tougher than a grunt and isn't gibbed by a direct rocket hit :p

But whatever it's an easy enough hack to reduce it's hp within your own maps 
tougher than a grunt and isn't gibbed by a direct rocket hit

At least change that. Dropping it 65 to 50 HP wouldn't unbalance much.

Also, Sentinels, why exactly are those stronger than Scrags? :( 
Cause They're Robots? 
Nazi Robots 
Yeah - those indestructible head crabs really pissed me off in half-life. Why can i blow away a whole alien planet, or whatever, but but a few vorelings are just too much. 
Health tweaks would be fine but they shouldn't be fucked with otherwise, they are one of the most perfectly themed Quake additions ever. Spot on custom monster. 
Just to be clear, Preach is the one working on the patch and gameplay changes and new monsters are outside of the scope of the patch.

Fast zombies worked because it was very obvious what type of zombie it was. it's behaviour was drastically different and immediately apparent. Also, there were no normal zombies in the mix which made things even clearer. Adding a new voreling variant with different health without drastically changing it's appearance and behaviour would be very confusing and changing the original would unbalance existing maps. 
changing the original would unbalance existing maps.

Come on... nobody's saying to give them 1 HP or something, just a very small decrease. 
If the chance is enough to change the gameplay, then it changes gameplay. If it is not enough, then why chance.

- The Mighty Spirit 
Health Tweaks 
Some food for thought, voreling health has already been decreased once, so it's unlikely to drop further. 
Closed Beta Time 
OK, time to get things moving. I would like to invite everybody who has created a map for Quoth (1 or 2) to send an e-mail to me - the address is on my profile. I'll reply with a copy of the 2.2 beta and what to look out for. 
How Goes Quoth? 
I Got.. 
really excited for a second but sad when it wasn't a real update.
Is the axeman going to be in this update? He's my favourite enemy type from the drake mod by far (Something Wicked made really good use of him) 
The quoth 2 fgd download link is broken!
How Long Can You Hold On? 
I have the new fgd ready to go, but it's for version 2.2, so it'll get released at the same time as that (just waiting for the go ahead from testers now). 
Mapping Guide 
Any word on whether or not the mapping guide will be updated? There was a lot missing from it before and I seem to remember Necros acknowledging this. Anyone know if it will be updated? Necros? :) 
Not from me, at least not right now. I don't even have time to do the wiki stuff. 
Due to the ongoing delay, have the updated docs: 
In Reply To Preach 
NVM about that, I already found it when i downloaded hulk256 by Ijed. It's all good now. 
Thanks for those docs. Not sure I'll be using them for now, but I do remember some bits and bobs missing from the old docs when doing my previous Quoth maps.

Quoth is awesome btw :)
Will there be any new content in the new patch, or is it just fixes and small additions to the existing mod? I did test some things a while ago, but that was just map compatibility really. 
Have you ever considered adding the QdQ code for speedrunning Quoth maps? 
I'm not really sure the demand for that would justify the difficulty involved. Adding some code that echoes your time down to the milliseconds would be straight-forward, although a bit strange to expose everyone to it.

The rest of the stuff (setting starting params, grenade counters, extra impulse commands) would require some serious porting for two reasons. One reason is that the the stuff that prints to the screen like the menu and the grenade counter is going to fight with the existing quoth code for the flashlight meter.

The other is that Quoth has made lots of changes to impulse commands and the meanings of the starting param variables (that's where the mapgate and endgate entities store values). So the menus for those would have to be rewritten accordingly. It would be a lot of work, not just a case of including their .qc files. 
Par Times 
Would be interesting, like in Doom. :) 
I See 
From A Speedrunners PoV 
If the digits are realy easy to implement then pls do so in whatever new stuff there ever might be to come out. For runs under a minute a high or low decimal is a big difference wheter improving your run is within reasonable possibilitys.
The other impulses realy arent that important: trigger info/triggers visible is just an exploring thing in most cases you could load the map without the custom progs get a bunch of errors but stil find out what and where the triggers are and do (unless its a negke-hax-map). Ogre grenade timer is pretty horrible since it wil usualy swap to a different grenade then the one you want to jump off, grenade timer, meh most runners can do wihtout, overall it will increase succes rate a bit, but an easy GJ is very doable without and the harder ones usualy require movement anyway so its not like your watching the counter go and press jump when it hits 0, and the fast ones are usualy grenades tossed ahead into your line of movement or bounced of enemies.

Within most of the new engines the realy easy way to do a GJ (throwing a grenade straight up and wait for the second bounce)is actualy pretty hard (unless you script wich im realy against) since you can aim straight up more then in the original engines

If i had the skills i would have made a QDQstats improvement with some extra features:

easyer map exploring:
-tracking of buttons and triggers: a line between the button or trigger towards what it actualy triggers
-impulse to make invisible walls visible
-easyer way to spot secrets
-max damage of explodoboxes

Run comparing:
-a ghost option
-possibility to set checkpoints

some form of health display (maybe a colour scheme wich gets brighter the less percentage hp is left)
-a way to track monsters behind walls
-a way to check wich monsters are left after you finished (with an id so you dont only know that it was an ogre but exactly wich one)

setting some notifications: did monster #x die?, status of door #x?(did it get blocked?) etc)

Probably forgetting a couple of things i tought of over the last decade but this post is already gettign slightly of topic and out of hand ;) 
Within most of the new engines the realy easy way to do a GJ (throwing a grenade straight up and wait for the second bounce)is actualy pretty hard (unless you script wich im realy against) since you can aim straight up more then in the original engines

This can be fixed in fitzquake at least, by modifying cl_minpitch and cl_maxpitch. -70 and 80 will restore vanilla quake behavior I think. 
I just time it to 4 secs, but this sounds like an easier way. 
for the minpitch and maxpitch values that might come in handy someday 
then you life in a slow world, in my world they explode after 2.5 :) 
My input on quoth was almost nil, apart from a few maps.

Hope you like space hulk :) 
Example map using Quoth info_command
60 seconds of speed 
Very Creative 
That's cool. People who have cl_sidespeed and cl_forwardspeed set low may not feel the full benefit of the powerup - but be careful about changing those values to fix it! The danger is in trying to restore them correctly to whatever the player prefers. I think the closest to a good way is to send "exec config.cfg" to the player at the end of the powerup - this restores the values to what they were at the start of the session (with the minor side-effect of also resetting anything else the player has changed this setting ...)

Finally, the powerup won't work correctly in co-op as it is. Is there a way to make it only affect one player? I'm hoping negke might take a punt at that question... 
Preach I agree. I was going to change fov also. fov 60-70 but what to set it back to? exec config.cfg is a good idea. Things like r_wateralpha I think are ok for a map to mess with but fov and others maybe not good. I also think the idea could be extended to a custom file exec custom.cfg to create a custom environment. Setting back to "normal" will be the trick. A way to write all cvar's to file before messing around would be good.

BTW Preach how is the Quoth update coming along? 
For Returning To The Value Set By User Of A Cvar 
I know in darkplaces you can use variables and set command to temporarily save the value of a cvar.

here is an example:

//=============start of example==============
//save current user-set value of cvar
set fov_value $fov
set sen_value $sensitivity
set sound_volume $volume

//change cvar value to whatever you want
fov 999
sensitivity 1000
volume 9999
playdemo demo1

//restore user-set cvar value
fov $fov_value
sensitivity $sen_value
volume $sound_volume
//=============end of example============== 
Yeah, new version is feature complete, it's just the testing and fixing any bugs that have arisen. It's not helped that people keep releasing maps for Quoth faster than I can complete them twice on easy and nightmare. 
new quoth?

Speedrunner Code And Flashlight 
I want to say "the flashlight meter sucks anyway", no offense. Could make it faintly beep or flicker when the battery nears its end -- absorbing the UI element into the game itself.

I always found the flashlight meter to be one of the less polished elements of Quoth. Slapping that consolefont all over the middle of the screen seemed distracting to me.

The less HUD, the better, IMHO. 
Completly Agree On That 
flashlight would only be usefull in combination with a magnifying glass so you get a laser like weapon :) What the idea behind the flashlight anyway?i cant think of any uses for it except using it as a melee weapon (no i wont ever come down from my fullbight cloud) 
Does that mean you always play in Fulbright? 
is a little bit of a weird addition IMO.
I can't see myself ever making a flashlight map unless its functionality was more like Half-Life. 
I Don't Know If It's Weird 
Just an extra option. Agree with go re flickering rather than countdown bar on screen. 
dotn see any reason not to, if i want to see beautifull stuff its not a videogame :) 
This discussion about whether the flashlight should be removed or reworked is kind of getting away from the point I was trying to make, which makes me worried that I didn't explain myself well. The flashlight is one example - the most visible one but by no means the only one - where there is a contention between a resource the Quoth code assumes it controls and the resources that the SDA code assumes has sole control of. This is why they are hard to integrate together. 
Why Bother With A Counter? 
I never run out of battery power anyway. 
I Think.. 
you should make the battery one of those crank ones... that way you can add a battery crank mini-game using quicktime events. ;) 
Demonmanuel 98 
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