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The Disease Of Modern Society
This isn't really aimed at anyone in particular. Have you noticed though, that in affluent countries at least, there's been a remarkable increase in the incidence of pathetic, self-absorbed whining and self-pity? You know what I mean... Wahh wahh, life is so hard, I'm a talented and unique little snowflake, and yet everybody hates me and doesn't appreciate me...

FUCK OFF AND GET OVER YOURSELF! You're a fragile little bag of meat and bones with just enough intelligence to fuck up your own miserable life and then be depressed about it for the rest of your days, is what you are. Accept it and move on.

Err, yes, sorry. Let's get back on track here. Now I'm not a particularly perceptive or observant person, and yet the answer is so bleeding obvious that even I can probably figure it out. Here's my theory, anyway: life is too easy.

Most of us don't have to worry too much about our most basic and important needs - food, shelter, avoiding predators, etc... day to day life is pretty damn easy. Most of us have to work for a living, but as long as you're earning enough to get by (luxuries aside), it's not really worth complaining about. Pretty much everybody has to do it.

If you're not sure where your next meal is coming from, your mind is going to be occupied trying to solve that problem. You're not going to piss and moan about inconsequential little things. If people have no genuine worries or concerns though, they seem to need to invent things to worry about!

Many people just can't seem to simply accept and enjoy life. I can't understand this. If all your basic needs are met, and you even have time and money to indulge in your own preferred leisure activities and hobbies, what's the fucking problem?

It's like people feel that they're bored or boring if they have no drama or conflict in their lives, so they have to invent shit to complain about, to entertain themselves or make themselves seem interesting. Maybe it's just a subconscious psychological thing where the mind needs to occupy itself somehow, so it gives itself something to worry about to keep the wheels spinning.

Discuss.
 
You could also stop projecting some of your negativism onto other people and start being a nice person. Believe me, it will make you feel much better overall if you try seeing a good thing in everything instead of picking out each and every tiny negative aspect.
What is wrong with being nice to other people?

I agree that all emo-ism is bad and annoying but all you see/hear/learn all day is BAD NEGATIVE WAR TERROR EVIL HATE OILPRICE ARMAGEDDON. The EURO 2008 (soccer) at the moment is a great example of how a general positive influence into people's days changes a lot. Nothing really is different in Germany except for our team playing quite well. And booom people are smiling, talking about it, being in a lighter mood.

With a bit more niceness you will change your conception of all your surroundings. Also I recommend you read How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie if you actually want to change something instead of whining and boo-ing yourself. 
Fribbles 
I agree with you. I have no time for whiny manchildren in either my personal or professional life. 
Bouhahahhahah 
Why should we care about other people problems, when we are already not able to solve ours !

Anyway, whining is a waste of time: first "help yourself, and the Lord will help you"... otherwize, nothing will happen... 
Tl;dr 
 
Spirt 
err, the football movement frightens me. Shows how easy it is to influence masses with bullshit, and how much we've learned from the past. It doesn't make people more happy, it just makes them react to media injected stimuli.

I'd be happy if people would feel strongly about important stuff instead, and coming from their own perspective on things. 
Oh Man, Goddamn Awesome Topic Out Of Nowhere. 
this topic is awesome. Giant rants, are awesome.

I actually think the internet has really, really exposed human narcissism. So many people listing irrelevant shit about their day to day lives on their blogs. Oooh, the other 5.99999999 billion of us really care.

I happen to think the world is pretty shitty, but I also realize no one gives a fuck, and furthermore that it could be sooooo, sooooo, sooooooo much worse than it is. With any perspective, we happen to all be in pretty much the best possible spot in both time and space, in terms of human history/civilization. It's amazing that with all the starvation, genocide, war, disease and poverty out there, anyone in a position to POST ON A BLOG could be whining about their emotions.

I think most of the guilty parties here are spoiled adolescent males, who are growing up slower and slower, who think they can get sex/emotional credit by acting effeminate and whiny because they have seen it work on TV, and they suck at life or don't even try. The solution is force them to deal with reality (ie, support themselves). 
Good Topic. 
That reminds me, gotta go update my blog and let everyone know how my saturday morning's been. It's been raining and all! 
Tronyn Nailed It 
I happen to think the world is pretty shitty, but I also realize no one gives a fuck, and furthermore that it could be sooooo, sooooo, sooooooo much worse than it is. With any perspective, we happen to all be in pretty much the best possible spot in both time and space, in terms of human history/civilization. It's amazing that with all the starvation, genocide, war, disease and poverty out there, anyone in a position to POST ON A BLOG could be whining about their emotions.

I actually think about this on a near daily basis. Consider this - unless you believe in reincarnation, then just consider the unlikeliness of your position - over all time and space, consider all the possible sentient beings that have ever lived, are currently living, and will ever live. It's a large number. You're one of them. What the christ are the chances that out of all the times and places that you could have been born in, you happen to be living in one where you can sleep at night without fear of being eaten by a monster; you know exactly when and where your next meal is coming from (and have the luxury of being able to pick and choose about it). If you're ill, or injured you can be healed by technology, and what's more there's a good chance all your children are going to survive you. For most of us, our biggest worry is what danger-free occupation we're going to concern ourselves with for one-third of each day (well, for 5 out of 7 days at least). The rest of the time we are either sleeping or entertaining ourselves with sex, drugs, or the latest toy.

We are privileged bastards. 
We Are All Scum 
As soon as everybody gets used to that fact the sooner we can get on with living. 
No Need To Say More 
Kinn/Tronyn have covered it perfectly. 
Modern Society Is Lazy 
Atleast people who post on blogs (and Forums) are doing something with there time, expressing themselves, reaching out....

A lot of people are lazy or depressed or both. It's easy to find yourself this way.

Effort is a good word. Many people groan about this word on a daily basis, but if everybody tried hard do do things for themselves and other people more the world would be a better place. You get out of life what you put into it.

Sometimes all you need is one good notion to motivate yourself, some sort of vision of something you want to change. And if your will changes then directly and indirectly you will manipulate the world (and its people) around you and probably end up reaching that goal. And the best part is that you can have many goals simnultaeously!

But the world is a shitty place! It does get people down, there's always going to be fear in the world. Except if there was no fear then there would be no love 
Nothing To Discuss 
I guess Frib never heard of the "hierarchy of needs" (go ahead, google) 
 
bastards undercut me again 
How To Win Friends & Influence People By Dale Carnegie 
is a horrible book. a way to become a nasty manipulative fake-acting person 
 
I don't know whether to blame the rash of black fingernail polish or the equally self-righteous reaction on the part of 'genuinely happy people', but I rather dislike that those with genuine depression now find it even harder to gain a foothold socially because they're not kharmic beacons of energy and joy that everyone wants in their life.

Why are you surprised that having money and being able to post on a blog doesn't make people happy? You can have the kind of life that modern consumer culture considers perfect and still be really and truly miserable, because those aren't the important things
Genuine Depression 
needs medical treatment. do yourself a favour - see a doc 
Naahhh - Fuck That Man!!! 
Depression needs a doctor my ass!!! Depression needs a slap. Fucking people should grow some testicles and put up a fight against depression. Live like your life depended on it.

I'm not stupid enough to read any self-help books. The whole idea is completely stupid. The author is trying to say he can relate to you, but if that were the case it would be a "lets write a self-help book then we will be rolling and money and can toss ourselves off in self-rightiouslness" book.

Mind over matter wins.

It doesnt matter if you're mentally ill, it doesn't meen you can't try hard.

Some people talk too much bullshit. 
 
#17 
Some people talk too much bullshit.

Couldn't agree more... 
 
Fucking people should grow some testicles and put up a fight against depression. = Some people talk too much bullshit.

Typical statements of people who never seriously had to deal with those things themselves. Everybody reacts to and approaches problems/situations/requirements etc differently. If one person can cope with everything just fine, it doesn't mean everybody else can easily do so as well.
People evaluate their existence within their own specific context, so what seems redundant to some might very well be worth complaining about to other, since modern society only theoretically offers equal opportunities for all.

Arguing that everyone who isn't as content and rejoicing as they supposedly should because life could be so much worse seems pretty arrogant to me. Then again, I agree there is something about western society that really fosters this, at least to a certain extend. Basic needs are being fulfilled, but then maybe a competition for the rest sets in. 
That Should Read 
Arguing that everyone who isn't as content and rejoicing as they supposedly should is a just a whiny emo... 
Theres 
A big difference between having a mental illness and being a whiny negative cunt.

This thread was basically complete after the first handful of posts. 
Ahem 
Whiny negative cunt being nobody in particular. 
Re: How To Win Friends & Influence People 
It's been years since I read it, all I really remember is that it emphasizes on giving positive feedback to your outside, even if it might be not what you think is right, resulting in a profite for both you and the receiver. 
Err 
the receiver doesn't profit from that (in the long run), and you suddenly are a lier. Humanity certainly doesn't profit :( 
Nope Negke Your More Pressumptious Than You Think I Am 
I just mean what I'm saying from exprience!

"How to win freinds and influence people" sounds more like an anger management ethic to me.

Ijed - The thread is complete when either somebody closes it or when people stop posting on it. Everybody has a right to discuss things, not just some early posting l00tists with big egos and small cock/balls

Neg - More like sombody who has been at rock bottom in enough of a manner for him to talk about on internet chat-rooms, and who decided that life isn't just going to go away. Things can be fixed when they are broken, freindships can be re made, self esteem can be repaired, confidence grows and is infectious. Self respect comes from what a person does. You are what you do.

That's all im saying. So maybe you had a bad time, something sad has happened to you, something has happened which was horrible and unfair?

Well you say FUCK THAT SHIT!!!!! You dont need drugs and therapy, you need to pull yourself together! Maybe you do need drugs and therapy, but they dont magically make problems or memories go away. A person has to want to change in order to change. 
*Gets The Popcorn* 
 
 
"The Disease Of Modern Society"

"*Gets The Popcorn*"

There you go. 
Heh 
Func's gone soap opera. 
If 
we're talking about the actual disease of modern society, then I would say you're waaaaay off. Yes emo people suck. But the ignorant religious zealots are hindering most (any?) progress that modern societies need to continue to develop and thrive. That's the real disease of modern society, not some chemically-imbalanced whiny people. Many religious groups actually try to spread ignorance and say how evil science is. It's ridiculous.

Sorry to switch topics of the thread, I just felt the title lent itself better to religious zealotry rather than some whiny people. 
Fag Enabler!!! :-| 
 
This Thread Is Too Highbrow For Me 
 
Neg|Ke 
"If one person can cope with everything just fine, it doesn't mean everybody else can easily do so as well."

Yes but it doesn't meen they should just give up, either! The key word there is "easily". I mean who ever said life is easy? So you have to put effort in. You put effort in, you get stuff out. No put in, no out. 
 
frib, kinn and tronyn pretty much covered my feelings on the topic although I do agree with negke to an extent.

But, I do think there is a question as to whether one person's worry/whining over what may seem stupid to an observer but is quite important to them personally is less important than another person's worry/whining over something that is important to them personally but can also be seen by others as necessary/worthwhile.

You cant worry about something you have never felt. Sure, you can understand, you can empathise, or you can do the opposite and pass judgment, but you cant feel it till its actually happened to you. So you are always going to be limited as to what you can complain and worry about :)

So whether you are a whiny cunt if you are not someone with 'genuine' problems, probably, but I'm not so sure the answer is so clear cut. 
Whoever 
said that serious depression does not warrant medical attention and medication and that people having it should "just pull themselves together" is obviously a retard who has never had to deal with real depression or any close family member having depression. 
 
What I was trying to say is that I think a 'pull yourself together' attitude is a fair bit too general or even superficial in many cases. Of course it's not impossible to achieve something by rethinking one's situation, but it always depends.

Besides, the topic was probably not so much about the hard cases but rather the general tendency of modern society to never really be satisfied despite all apparent benefits. The repercussions of capitalism might play into this, as well as technology, popular culture and what not. 
Clearly... 
the answer to all these problems is to join your local Fight Club chapter. 
In Anyway... 
..in all society, you will find people that are not happy about their own situation.
Nowadays, every weakness is put into the "depressing illbess pot", and anti-depressing medics save your life... Not really actually, it just attenuates the effects, and do not change your global situation. People need to react, that's all.
In other words, whatever is the reason of being depressive, whatever your situation is (financial, social, etc...) the whining people should sort out their fingers from their asshole... though..

It sounds easy, but if depressed people just wait for others help, how do you want to evolve, and pass over the depressing state ?

"Help yourself, Lord will help you" :D 
Amen... 
 
CZG... 
this thread is too highbrow for me

It's too highbrow for some of the participants too but that doesn't stop them posting at great length. 
Jago 
On the contrary my freind (god I'm going round in circles here) - I speak from experience. Im not saying that therapy and anti-depressants are evil, or that nobody should ever need them. People DO get depressed, and DO need medical assistance. But I think that society often uses these things (particularily the drugs) to easily. Let me give you a real life example.

My mother after the birth of her third child developed some sort of internal abdominal pains, which grew worse with time and wouldnt go away. So she sought out medical attention, and went to see the doctor. The doctors wouldn't do more than just give her a brief check-over and told her that they couldn't do anything, that they didnt know what was causeing the pain, but
"if the constant pain was getting her down they could put her on a course of anti-depressants"

"but I'm not depressed!" she would tell them.
"I dont want anti depressants, I just want to find out what is wrong with me!"

The doctors eventually told her that the pains were probably caused by a hormone in-balance caused by the birth of her childeren, and that she could take supermarket-bought herbal remedies to try and kurb the symptoms, but she would have to get used to them ultimately, as she would suffer for the rest of her life!

My mopther felt relieved by this news, as she had been told that there was a reason for the pain - a hormine imbalance caused by the birth of her childeren. So she did not go on a course of anti depressants. She was satisfied enough with trying to fight the symptoms with the herbal remedies.

###years later###

Having met a new freind, a lady who was a professional dietician, she was taling about her symptoms. Her freind very quickly said:
"I can tell you straight away that what you are sufferring from is coeliacs symdrome (intolerece to wheat) and lactose intolerance, and waht you need to do is stop eating wheat and milk, and you will feel much better"
So now my mother doesn't east wheat and doesnt eat dairy foods, and she says that she has never felt better! :)

If she had chosen the anti-depressants as the doctor had recommended right at the start she could have been dependant on these by the time she was properly diagnosed.
The doctors were stupid for not noticing such and obvious problem.
They were very VERY quick to offer her the drugs.
THERE WAS NEVER ANYTHING WRONG WITH MY MOTHER - SHE DID NOT HAVE DEPRESSION.


My exprience with depression is far worse than that, and I am not prepared to dicuss it here, right now. But I will say that when a person hits rock bottom, they learn what is valuable in life, and what part of them needs to grow up.
Depression is caused by lack of solutions. In-action. Real-life occurences. Drugs alone wont fix the problem, only make it worse. What fixes depression is solutions. Real-life changes. Work. 
Good Example, Along With Other Good Comments Here And Above 
Depression was never the issue of this thread. The issue was whiners.

People who are actually depressed don't sit around whining on blogs, dressing up (buying cloths!), writing poems, etc trying to get sex/emotional credit.

Think of it this way. 200 years ago, people who were really depressed would have killed themselves. And the whiners would have realized that whining got them nowhere, gotten a job, and THEN tried getting some sex/emotional credit. Our society has gotten to a point where certain classes of people need to work so little that they have no practical idea of life at all - forget predators and starvation, they aren't even aware of anything at all about the economy which supports them.

Almost everyone who falls under the category "whiner" thinks, as Fribbles' original post specified, "I'm a talented and unique little snowflake, and yet everybody hates me and doesn't appreciate me." No one involved in the real world could believe that. I hope the depressed people get help, and the whiners botch their attention-grab fake suicide attempts and die for real.

PS Kinn I totally agree with what you said 
... God Damn It 
(buying CLOTHES) that was meant to read... 
Ricky 
You're obviously already realizing what a crock of shit you posted before, hence your backpaddling in post #41. Now you're saying exactly what Lun said: Society over-uses the term depression in situations where it isn't appropriate. The result of that is that people who are not really clinically depressed get treated with therapy or drugs, and there surely are a lot of people who could help themselves.

But to deny that real depression is a desease is downright cruel to anyone who has had to deal with clinical depression, be it in themselves or in their family or friends. I didn't read all what you wrote, but you mentioned you had reached "rock bottom" and pulled yourself out of it. That is not depression. Depression is when you are not able to help yourself, or even seek help from others.

I've seen it in my family, and if you had been clinically depressed in your past, you would simply not be talking like this. I'm not denying that you had a rough time in your life and that it was really hard for you. But you probably were not depressed. 
 
Depression is when you are not able to help yourself, or even seek help from others.

No, that sounds like uselessness. Giving up.

They are saying nowadays that dyslexia isn't a real disease. It's just a person who never learned to read properly. I wander how all those millions of people who were diagnosed dyslexic felt when they were told that?

Doesn't mean it's not true!

Also if any of my post's seemed like back-tracking, they weren't supposed to be. Maybe I'll use analogies or try to explain my POV using different terms, but at no point have I "taken back" anything I have said.

I mean it man. Depression my ass! Fuck depression, life's too short. The disease of modern society: - LACK OF FEAR

As in there is not enough fear in the world anymore to remind people what they are living for. Thats WHY people get depressed! 
Check Wikipedia 
 
I Mean 
for the medical definition.

You can be as determined as you like, it's not going to change the chemical balence (or inbalence) inside your skull. More likely any determination you have will allow the illness to feed off itself.

But this thread was never about this topic. 
Ricky 
Thanks Lun 
 
None Of This Shit 
None of this shit belongs on this board. No one here is an authority on anyone else's life, no one knows what each of us goes through every day when we wake up. Keep it to yourself next time Frib. If you really believe the answer to happiness in life is as simple as you've made it out to be here then you're as damaged as anyone who's whining from within the walls a mansion filled with beautiful women.

I'm as much a believer in the power of positive thinking as the next guy and I wish this board in particular was about 1000% more positive and less of a dumping ground for people's frustrations be they gaming related, Quake related or neither.

We're so small here that we should be pumping each other up, offering constructive criticism wherever possible, and generally being cool with each other. No one is going to stop you from acting like a total cunt if you want to, but you're never going to get anything productive out of it. On the other hand, if you offered advice and support and general well wishes you might see more than a trickle of output and make a friend or two.

I've roamed the halls of Internet long enough that I don't really give a shit if someone flames me or tells me I'm stupid or corrects me when I misspell vegina, but there are people who still do take it to heart. There are people on this board who don't visit the horrible forums and see the goatse man giving kisses to the Lemonparty dudes and aren't hardened shells of hate -- they're decent people who come on the internet with the rest of us to share their work.

I hold my tongue a lot when I see people being dicks on this board because I always just assume that everyone can brush it off but that's not the kind of place this should be. It's a lot harder to be patient and understanding than it is to be sarcastic and short with people but it always pays off in the end to be patient. Always.

We should be doing our best to keep it to Quake and games 99% of the time on this board, and if you can't or don't want to do that, at the very least just don't be dicks to each other.

*strums acoustic guitar* 
Yay, Yay 
a thousand times yay 
Blitz! 
 
Yup 
 
 
Depression needs a doctor my ass!!!

You dont need drugs and therapy

Maybe you do need drugs and therapy

People DO get depressed, and DO need medical assistance.

at no point have I "taken back" anything I have said


Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. 
Its True 
nothing I say makes any sense 
 
in an insane world a sane person appears insane 
Well Quite... 
we should be pumping each other up

I think CZG is your man for that... 
Blitz 
Cheers! 
You're Not Allowed Unhappiness 
cause you have a blog.

Tells something about the writer's beliefs about happiness. 
Hehe Yeah 
wtf is it with people reacting so negative to negative expression?

The negative people mostly have a point. I think it's the people without arguments, who use this 'bah, you're only negative' shit as an excuse for not having to argue.

At least the people around me, who i'd categorize (yeah, i know, shut up) as most awake/aware of what's going on, are the 'negative' ones, and the 'negativity-complainers' are at the opposite end.

maybe it's time for the complainer-complainers shut up, because the complainers have a point and the complainer-complainers don't ;)

That said, i knew people, who were NOTHING BUT negative, and not complaining about 'real' stuff with arguments, but bitching about other people, etc. the only times they seemed to have fun were when they made fun of others. Those people sure as hell don't have a point ;) 
 
I wrote at least seven drafts here for messages where I called all of the people in this thread various names and made unfounded claims about their mothers, but in the spirit of being positive I deleted them all! 
^ I Do That So Often 
since I realised that I want to be a happy person, not a grumpy loner. 
Against My Higher Thought Processes 
How To Disagree: http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Blitz: we are here originally for the gaming topics; but, we're also compadres, and necessarily want to talk about some other stuff besides q1 mappery.

Frib: the problem is systematized greed.

Ricky: go volunteer at a hospital. 
 
Anyone disagreeing that depression can be a real disease is a fucking idiot. Those people aren't lazy - they are clinically depressed.

And yes, sometimes doctors are quick to jump to a diagnosis and prescribe the wrong thing. They're human and they will miss things that seem obvious in hindsight. My doctor diagnosed me with carpal tunnel syndrome which, after reading a few books, I can say is wrong. What I have is RSI. Doctors are humans - always get a second opinion on something serious that might affect the rest of your life and your ability to enjoy it. 
Fribulator 
nice thread!
fully agreed, boredom is a result of the narrowmindedness... people are unable to find anything that might interest them, so they go and grab a bottle and sit with it all day blaming the world in their unluck...

of course we live in the hard times, even if we don't need to hunt for food or fight for the shelter, our level of life kinda raised from the cavemen, but the life has become more....uhm intense. not everyone is able to accept this by their psyche, hence depressions. and it's really hard for such peope to find the way out of it. since we're tribal species by the nature, only closest firends are able to help in this situation. if one doesn't have good friends or relatives in his life, his life might become real challenge... 
Once Again... 
From Russia With Love

hahaha! 
To Summarize 
.. stupidity is TEH disease of modern society :P 
Ok Feelgood Time! 
Lol 
like the one in Kewait, with the lone dog dancing 
Blitz 
You're just a complainer-complainer-complainer 
There Is No Disease 
It is the increase of the speed and rate of communication.

Humans have a tendency to allow what they hear to shape their concept of normal, when they are in fact selectively choosing where they listen.

The internet is filled with people looking for excitement to make up for the mundane limits of real life.

But what you hear on the internet isn't "normal" or even typical, it is what scientists refer to as observation bias. 
Raaar 
if this doesn't cheer anyone up, you're dead inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZuCNMNcDf8 
Well I'm Obviously Dead Inside Then 
 
Kinn 
That worked! 
The Disease Of Modern Society 
Is you.

Sat there, insular, in front of a PC, notebook or even fiddling with a telecommunications device - forgetting about the people around you as you set up a nice fiend / flcikering light ambush, or find the last rune hidden in Digs04.

You make me sick. 
While That May Be True, 
I got these mammary implants and I subject myself to a continuous and strenuous course of hormone therapy for the sole purpose of nursing abandoned orphans whom society has deemed unworthy of love, wait, gotta go burb little Suni . . . okay, I'm back. So if I indulge in a little me-time fragging fiends and the like, I hope the world can find it in its heart to forgive me; after all, between A.J. and myself, we pretty much carry the weight of it all on our shoulders. 
Farking Hell 
I didn't even find the 3rd rune in Digs04, I suck at even being the disease of society (is this what it feels like to be CZG?) 
Shambler 
Stop whining, and either go map, or go suicide... 
Well 
That second part was wishful thinking - still need to find the third rune myself :P

But I will, continuing this downward spiral of degeneracy. 
 
But I will, continuing this downward spiral of degeneracy.

Amen to that, brothah. 
So True .. 
.. what she said..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JvVf1piHXg

Maybe here are the explanations of the disease of our world.... though.. 
 
Heh 
 
Disease Of Our World 
The people. Who was it that said that people are like bacteria? 
 
Agent Smith? 
Hmm 
I liked that speech/rant. Only bit of the Matrix that wasn't a rip off of John Woo or Descartes. 
^^ 
Or a rip off of some kid getting high for the first time.

"What if...what if we're like...all in a COMPUTER"

*gigantic bong hit* 
 
Hating on the Matrix is so 2 years ago. 
Oh Man 
lol
one of my friends was exactly like that when he first saw the matrix, and he didn't even have the excuse of being stoned. 
Great Comic 
 
I Was. 
 
The Matrix Was Great... 
it was just the sequels that sucked. 
 
I liked all 3 movies. I've already been publicly flogged so no need to do it again. I also love NASCAR, beer and feeling up my sister.

The sequels had some great scenes in them - they just tried too hard with the symbolism and obscure references. The first one had enough of them to keep it interesting but the sequels went over the top.

But 'sucked'? That seems a little strong. They're still very watchable sci-fi/action movies with some very cool scenery and ideas. 
No 
they suck. 
I Agree With Willem 
I like the Matrix movies a lot! The second one made me go cross-eyed for 3 and a half weeks, and the 3rd one made me vomit at the end, but it was all worth it for the rest.... 
I Agree With Nitin 
they do suck, they became very stupid and silly.

right, ghosts and vampires are 'rogue programs.' They wore the concept too thin (plus the original concept had a rather gaping plot hole). I remember one reviewer commenting of part 2, "Yes, there is a rave scene. Yes, it is stupid."

I also think the original was overrated (but still good, and great compared to the sequels). 
 
I also love NASCAR, beer and feeling up my sister.

I also like NASCAR, beer, and feeling up your sister. 
 
Ghosts as rogue programs was cool, IMO. I also loved the concept of the Smith program deciding it didn't want to be deleted and learning to replicate itself. A very cool concept which gave us one of the best fight scenes in the series! 
 
"(plus the original concept had a rather gaping plot hole)"

There were many I'm sure but which one specifically are you referring to here? 
The Second Movie 
 
It's The Best Hollywood Could Do 
of course it's mentally insulting to anyone with the slightest scifi reading background but what can you expect.
Whatever. I don't buy movie tickets anymore. 
#97 
Fuckin' ell, you snooze you lose around here, bastard :P

P.S. I mostly agree with Willem. Matrix films = cool, internet hype heralding them as Christ V2.0 = uncool. 
Two Worst Things About Matrix 1 
1) The marketing campaign, lol, "WOO THIS IS CRAZY INTELLIGENT, STEPHEN HAWKING COULD HARDLY UNDERSTAND IT." That's damned retarded.

2) Aforementioned plot hole. I've heard that originally the machines were harvesting humans for computing ability, which would make sense. However, that was apparently too intellectual for their CRAZY BRILLIANT MOVIE, so they dropped it and said they were harvest humans for - uhh - POWER. We today have better methods of getting power than this, and these machines have like amazing AI and all these elaborate abilities - lol, the sheer stupidity of this is amazing.

Despite the fact that it was utterly style over substance, it was good for a mainstream action movie. 
 
"The marketing campaign, lol, "WOO THIS IS CRAZY INTELLIGENT, STEPHEN HAWKING COULD HARDLY UNDERSTAND IT." That's damned retarded. "

Example link? I don't remember the trailers being like that at all. 
Agree With Tronyn 
As movies go the first one wasn't bad but didn't really have anything new to offer to the non-trenchcoat wearing rubber pants fetishist crowd.

People as batteries was indeed the stupidest plot point there's been for a while.

I also wonder how many times Keanu Reeves had to say "Woah!" until they had a good take. The twat.

The sequels just rehashed more of the same, in the long-standing tradition of sequels, and were even worse for it in that the original didn't have much substance. 
 
No offense meant to anyone here but I've always held the belief that most complaining about the Matrix is done to make the complainer feel smarter. "I'm FAR too well read and educated to be able to enjoy such a SIMPLISTIC and RIDICULOUS set of movies". Frankly, get over yourselves.

Again, this doesn't apply to anyone here. You guys are awesome. 
Heh 
Don't worry.

In terms of films it wasn't so bad, but I gave up on films around about when it came out, so maybe it helped push me towards that.

Now blasting demons, hacking stuff up with chainsaws or reading a book is enough for me.

Films rarely, really. 
The Sequels 
wouldnt be so bad if they didnt have that smug, ponderous, this is so intelligent vibe to them. The first one worked because although it was style over substance, it knew that and generally stuck to that.

With (especially) reloaded and also many parts of revolutions, there was too much sense of "this isnt just your normal popcorn movie folks, we have something deep to offer". Except they didnt.

I have time for both sorts of films, popcorn and pretentious arthouse, as long as they play to their tune. 
I Liked 2 & 3 
especially 3

not because of the story. just cos they had guns & fighting & stuff 
So.. 
The disease of modern society are the matrix movies? 
 
"With (especially) reloaded and also many parts of revolutions, there was too much sense of "this isnt just your normal popcorn movie folks, we have something deep to offer". Except they didnt. "

Admittedly, there was far too much blah-blah in the sequels but I really enjoyed some of those scenes. Like when Neo encounters the Architect. I thought that scene was great. 
Matrix Can't Be Stupid 
no, all the people claiming it is are just pricks. Yeah, sure.

It had some nice stuff but the overall thing was a big stupid mess. If they had done the original coherent scifi stories and not ripped everything (right down to the red and blue potion choice), mixed and ruined it with stupid fights and rock and roll that don't really relate to anything, it could have worked many times better.

Great material and ideas not seen on the screen before (although having existed for decades in writing), badly spoiled in the end.

Science fiction is very often criticism of the state of affairs at the time of writing, thought experiments lighting up the mechanisms of society, and people's motivations by taking them to absurd extremities.

Matrix took those and blended it with a jesus saviour figure shooting guns in nonsensical action scenes. They almost never make any remote sense at all. First the hero hides behind a pillar and the baddies shoot like mad, with stone chips flying everywhere. Then the hero just steps out and starts shooting, with absolutely no regard for cover. And of course is never hit.

The suspension of disbelief required. Uhh. Why won't Neo turn pink and expand to fill the whole room, suffocating everyone. It would at least be a bit more unexpected. Same level of realism.

No. Really. The themes that movie could have handled were numerous. The whole illusion issues for one.

All thrown away.

Sad really, and completely expected. 
 
*adjust monocle*

Quite! 
Yep 
 
Re: Willem #106 
Don't worry, I saw Freddy vs Jason in theatres twice (the second time drunk) and thought it ruled. My view is, if you're going to make a smart movie, make it smart. If you're going to make a dumb movie, make it dumb.

Also, I agree with Nitin on #108. This is also what I hate about M Night Shamylan. Condescending preachiness on the part of some asshole who isn't even saying anything all that "deep-etc," and in spite of gaping plot holes (again, M night's got tons).

Re: bambuz on 112. LOL. Yeah I love that, that happens in like every action movie too. If I ever get hired to be a bad guy, I'll try to have better aim. 
"The Disease Of Our World" 
who was it that said that people are like bacteria? (me a few posts back)

I'm sure that it wasn't that Matrix I was thinking of (heh - a virus).

I vaguely recall a conversation I once had with someone who was saying that it was in part of one of the religions (Hindu possibly?), or it could have been a very famous author. I think it was a religion.

Cant remember though, I must have been wrecked. 
People As Batteries 
I agree that this makes no sense if taken literally. However, if you take it metaphorically, you could look at the entire movie as an allegory for modern life -- a world where huge, artificial and autonomous human-built entities (corporations in real life) run the show, and have constructed an elaborate fantasy world for humans (consumers) who provide their fuel supply. In the movie the fantasy world is the matrix, in real life it's the comfortable bubble that we mostly live in, where meat comes shrink-wrapped from the supermarket, toys and clothes come from department stores, and diamonds from the jeweler, and the reality, the actual machinery that runs the whole thing, is largely hidden. There's no slaughter of cows, unsafe labor conditions, or exploitation of civil war in our bubble, all that is hidden behind the glossy lines of luxury car, and the cool, sterile lighting of the shopping mall.

All of this could be my own invention, of course, but I think that generally when something doesn't make sense in a movie, book, or song, it's an invitation by the author to look more critically. Like when a narrator says something clearly wrong, that's usually the author saying "hey, pay attention, this narrator can't be trusted in general." 
Metl 
your interpretation is great, and I agree that it describes modern life and the disconnection/comfort/hidden evil that most people (including me) go through/live in. However I don't think the Wachowski brothers are that smart. What you're discussing is "smart anti-authoritarianism" as opposed to "stupid, whiny leftism," and if you want an illustration of which side of that line those Wa-chowski boys are on just watch "V for Vendetta."

The 13th Floor, Existenz, and Dark City all did similar ideas earlier and arguably better. Not to mention all the scifi accessible to those able to read for 30 years prior to any of it being proposed to some asshole with his hands on the hollywood purse straps.

Again, I prefer Matrix ONE, to the average action movie. But I've never mistaken it for good scifi. 
Tronyn: 
you could be right, and of course works of art don't really have to be limited to artist's intent when interpreting them.

Plus, you are correct in that their ham-fisted treatment of V for Vendetta made it clear about how sophisticated they are as directors. It kind of seems like the matrix was an accident they couldn't repeat. 
Matrix One Is Great Fun 
but not a great film. I dont agree with bambuz's post above at all about stupid action sequences.

The scene he talks about in particular is one of my favorite staged and choreographed action scenes, is it unrealstic and unbelievable, yes. But its also extremely well done for cinematic effect.

By that time in the movie you shold know what type of film it is, and if you're still expecting Solaris, you are obviously going to be disappointed.
V

V for Vendetta is another story, utter rubbish from start to end. 
Bambuz, A Little Advice From John Lennon 
The next time you are dragged to see entertainment on the big screen, turn off your mind, relax and float down stream. It is not killing you to disengage the cerebellum every now and then, you are just letting the thing recharge. 
2 Cents More 
That is a good way of looking at it, Metl, but I prefer the version (whoever mentioned it) where humans are used for their processing power.

Like vampiric labotomy.

I prefer this grim idea because it interprets the same way but the cause and effect are the same - the general mass are blinkered so that the society can function. Not so that some mysterious resource can be gleaned from their imprisionment. I spose it's a more direct fairy tale type idea - the black and white certainties.

In the fifities everything was explained by nuclear, just recently it's been genetic engineering. Machines = electricity is pretty lazy.

The matrix was a pretty out there concept, for box office films, and they could have explored it better. 
 
In the fifities everything was explained by nuclear, just recently it's been genetic engineering.

So true. Seems like every vampire or zombie or werewolf movie nowadays explains everything as being caused by a virus or genetic mutation. 
 
"The next time you are dragged to see entertainment on the big screen, turn off your mind, relax and float down stream. It is not killing you to disengage the cerebellum every now and then, you are just letting the thing recharge."

OK, 2 things:

1) Dragged? Get over yourselves.

2) I agree. Movies are mainly about FUN and FANTASY. Just let yourself go and get into it. You'll have a much happier life if you stop expecting every single thing you do to nourish you on a spiritual and intellectual level. Some things are simply meant to be fun. 
 
I agree. Movies are mainly about FUN and FANTASY. Just let yourself go and get into it. You'll have a much happier life if you stop expecting every single thing you do to nourish you on a spiritual and intellectual level. Some things are simply meant to be fun.

i can see both sides of the argument here. whilst i wholly agree with the above, the common view seems to be that 2 & 3 were trying to 'to nourish you on a spiritual and intellectual level', which is what has gotten most people's backs up. i can't say as it bothered me that much but i can see why it would others.

v for vendetta is one of my favourite films though :( 
 
"Movies are mainly about FUN and FANTASY."

Disagree. Some are, plenty out there that's more than that. I know a lot of people can only go with the fun mode or the serious mode, but I like to watch both (alhough I can say that i get a lot more out of the serious stuff and the bar for fun stuff is higher for me). 
Well, 
1) Dragged? Get over yourselves.

I was just being simpatico to Bambuz' POV. 
Sip 
No hace mal a los de mas. 
No 
Everybody read some Stanislaw Lem and get your brain turned ON and have fun at the same time.
I honestly recommend it to Metl especially. 
Willem 
which scifi movies do you think have been been nourishing the spirit and intellect?
If a movie has 2 out of 3 components (the atmosphere/quality and the plot/setting components, lifted from books) I see it as a great spiritual and intellectual nourishing opportunity. But then they add crap and the total is wasted, like Matrix was.

It's like when somebody was making pancakes. He makes a proper dough from recipe and fries em (whatever word it is) like he has seen his mother do, and then instead of jam decides to get creative instead and adds a pile of shit on top. Then he puts it on the platter, gives to you and says "enjoy!".

Now, maybe some people can say it was the function of the whole pancake exercise to be shit anyway, I say it could have been a great pancake experience marred by shit. 
Buz 
Calm down.

There's a big difference between mainstream media, be it films, books, television (to a degree) or music.

Cinema is always marketed to the masses, expecting it to be intellectual is like complaining because your bacon sandwich didn't arrive with caviar sprinkled on top.

The author you linked looks like he's written some good stuff - (I can't buy it out here (no Amazon)) but it's not mainstream media and to compare the two is a bit short sighted. Maybe.

Twelve fat cunts sat in a boardroom, all of which have a secure salary and pension, deciding what is the next year's entertainment. Be it qausi-intellectual or pure pap, the decision rests with the same groups.

I don't watch films any more unless I'm under the influence, so could be my opinion is null and void. 
But Why 
does the pile of shit has to include the pancakes if 99% of the population can't tell them pancakes being there in the first place anyway. Having never even tasted them.

Oh how awfully low is the bar set.

At the same time, the visual effects are extremely refined and millions after millions are spent to do them.

It's the same with the manned space program. Billions are spent, elaborate techniques are developed in decades of hard serious work, thousands of careers are devoted and many people burned out. And the guys plant a flag on the moon and leave. There was never any thought behind any of it.

All that effort wasted. Such a shame. 
To Make Myself Clearer 
If The Matrix hadn't had the blue and the red pill, if there had not been the multiple worlds, if Neo abruptly would not have woken up from the slime in one of the great scenes of scifi cinema, and if there would not have been many of those great things about the movie that had been borrowed from elsewhere, I wouldn't complain. It would have been generic crap throughout.

What I'm just saying is that it could have been so much better so much easily but for some reason held back so much. I don't understand why, and it makes me angry too.

At the same time it of course poisoned the well for all future movies handling the themes, as they will be always compared to Matrix (even though Matrix took things from books).

Of course, all my posts have been exaggerating just to make the point more clear to everyone. 
 
"What I'm just saying is that it could have been so much better so much easily but for some reason held back so much. I don't understand why, and it makes me angry too. "

It makes me angry too. I can't believe it was so popular and made so much money and yet was a horrible shit pancake. Imagine what could have been if they had made a GOOD movie. Ye gods!! The universe may have ripped itself in two. 
 
At the same time it of course poisoned the well for all future movies . . .

And it wasn't before?

Good films are few and far between. 
I'm Going To Disagree Again 
good mainstream new releases are few and far between. But there's heaps of good stuff out every year, you just have to look for it since it's not really advertised.

And if you're willing to go back and see older stuff, the list grows exponentially. 
Well 
I'm not sure how the space program is an analogy, but it is simultaneously depressing and hilarious how much effort goes into making such complex, elaborate and downright amazing expressions... of base stupidity.

You'd think that somewhere in the technical /artistic process of creating all this amazing CGI, which undoubtedly requires... THINKING... someone might wonder, "But why is the script retarded? Why is the idea retarded? Why is the intellectual level of the whole thing so retarded?"

Western culture post-1950 has some real problems. There's a huge gap between stupid shallow bullshit for goddamn idiots, and pretentious solipsistic deliberately boring shite. In my view there needs to be a sane middle ground, where the content can appeal to a fairly wide segment of the population, but there is actually some depth/intellectual content to the material. Lovecraft is a good example. 
Tronyn 
that middle ground would be 70's cinema :) 
</shrug> 
Why is the intellectual level of the whole thing so retarded?

Because the guy with the money likes it / doesn't give a shit knowing it'll sell. 
Nice Posts 
Willem:
I find your lack of passion regarding art admirable.

Tronyn, Nitin:
Yes!
Serpico for one. 
Hm 
Not all 70's, but;

Taxi Driver

Wicker Man

Scanners (the second two following the aforementioend downcline)

Robocop (as above)

Terminator

The Thing 
Bah 
And Total Recall.

I recently read Ubik, which was good as well. 
Has Anyone Seen 
the 'de-xionized' version of matrix 2 + 3?

condenses the last 2 movies into 1 movie of about 3 hours removing almost all the non-matrix scenes.

i tell you, the movie is better off that way, and the story is pretty much unchanged. (which goes to show just how useless all the xion scenes were) 
Bambuz 
Rhetorically, that sounds remarkably close to the writings of Alan Bloom, the late neo-classical anti-empiricist who railed against the Enlightenment and Romantic Ages for throwing the arts out of their symmetrical mannerisms and for rejecting the sublime.

You asked me a few weeks ago if I was turning leftward, well I should ask you if you are turning rightward (Bloom was the Dean of the younger generation of Neocons).

If you had to choose to watch a movie that was a travel tale through Europe, what would you prefer, a Dogma movie, or Beerfest, and more importantly, which would be more revealing of the human condition? 
Addedum 
Of course, in one sense, you are simply discussing standards, and those I believe to be too rigid for your own long term sanity, but I also share some of that concern despite my ltaste for raunchy comedy. Personally, I despise MTV, and the chic-hop set it glorifies. 'The Hills' in particular make me think that the Manson Family didn't take it nearly far enough. 
 
"I find your lack of passion regarding art admirable. "

And I find the height of your horse particularly impressive. 
 
Remember what I said before about how most Matrix bitching is basically meant to let the bitcher feel smart and better about themselves? To give themselves a perceived mental boost above the general populace by decrying something that they enjoyed and thereby elevate themselves to new levels of sophistication and taste?

Remember also how I said that it didn't apply to you guys? I take that last part back. Well done. New monocles for everyone!

I can only pray you guys find some films that might feed your incredibly well rounded and advanced tastes. None of this Hollywood pap will do, of course. We'll have to begin scouring the indie community to find anything of true value and, even then, most of the film makers there are dumber than you but maybe -- just maybe -- one or two can rise above the sea of drek and provide you with the smallest of intellectual stimulations. If only for a fleeting moment while you try and hold back from projectile vomiting up the bile they've been feeding you with for the remainder of the film.

It's a shame that you need to exist in a society where people create films like the Matrix. I feel a wave of shame come over me when I consider that your massive brains and finely honed predilections prevent you from letting go and simply enjoying a filler story with some great visuals interspersed - even for 2 hours. Asking you to let go and not analyze the story from every angle while watching Neo kick Agent Smith in the face and not think back to the plot hole you so keenly discovered in the first 15 minutes of the "film" is way too much. I'm able to do it but I completely understand that you are not.

You are patrons of the arts. Lovers of fine things and consumers of artistic vision. The Matrix is not made for minds such as yours but, luckily, enough people enjoyed it provides the ideal platform for launching your cerebral campaign against it allows you to beat down the lower life forms while attempting to show them that if they would just raise their heads slightly they could see above the edge of the gutter and marvel at the stars shining above.

Your work is noble and necessary and I wish you good luck and godspeed, gentlemen. 
 
Also, could you guys take this to the film thread so I can ignore this crap like I do everything else posted in that pit of pretension? Thx! 
Willem 
oh come one, this is an elitist mapping forum, surely you're not surprised that topics other mapping also elicit elicit behaviour :) 
Bugger 
you know what I was trying to say. 
ROFL 
#146 - roflmao.

#148 - yes please. 
Haha Willem 
Oh, sometimes it feels as if your point was that Matrix is sanctity uncriticizable. But it's probably not that. Also I don't think you can really mean that people who criticize a certain movie are always just pretentious, that there can be nothing to criticize.

You missed my point (I see the analogies can easily be taken that way). I'm not saying "easy" movies should not be done.

Just that it's a shame that Matrix had so much more potential than the average film that was then wasted.

There have been movies that have changed a lot. Think about Star Wars. It went for some consistent vision. They probably did a million "stupid things" in the movie in my view but the overall vast gritty extremely immersive, detailed, innovative and fascinating sci-fi world idea was done full on, not half heartedly. No expense was spared there. They respected the audience in that regard and expected them to go along. It's a tour de force of scifi world imagination.

Matrix could perhaps have had many of those same things with the plot mechanics of the whole reality, illusion/disillusionment, power and control. It started out that way but it was ultimately not pursued. 
Oh Man 
actually I don't think Star Wars was all that great. The story is good, but the background universe makes absolutely no sense.

Willem - I dunno what your exact outlook is, and I'm not sure if any of your comments are aimed at me, since I think I disclaimed such an outlook by saying I've enjoyed some patently dumb (but self-aware) slasher flicks and that my attitude is "make a smart movie smart and a dumb movie dumb" - but you seem to think it's not legitimate to enjoy better art more than worse art, or even to argue that there is such a division. Well, I'm finding more and more that my enjoyment of films is based on whether they leave me much to think about afterward. This is why I think The Dark Knight is going to be good, because like Batman Begins it has a strong underlying theme (in this case anarchy) but it also looks to have spectacular action sequences. Compare that to something like The Fantastic Four, which is probably similar in budget and quality of special effects/stunts, and you can tell there is a qualitative difference. The latter is empty and brainless, and I could barely sit through it once, as opposed to TDK which I will very likely buy and watch multiple times. 
Errr 
Were we not talking about depression, medics and stupidity of human being at the beginning of this thread: wtf movies are related to Modern society diseases... maybeit reflects how looks our society, though.... 
 
Star Wars? Fucking Star Wars!? A "tour de force" of sci-fi?

We're done here. 
Yep 
back to what makes our society so shit. 
Ummm... 
I do enjoy an occasional re-watch of Joe Dirt. Dose that qualify me as a card-carrying member of the modern disease society too?

...and is so, WHOA! 
Hmm 
Don't knock Star Wars. It may not be the best film evah, but it's not bad as samurai movies go. 
Hmm 
The problem of modern society can be summed up by reading (yes reading, not watching (they changed the 'I want to have your abortion' line and ruined the ending in the film) Fight Club. Not the plot arc, but the social philosphy behind it (see the 'snow flake' speech in it for a summary).

It's true, as is the already mentioned 'humanity is a virus' bit from The Matrix.

(and yes, I'm aware I'm using pop culture references to make my point since I'm in a rush, but given that culture arises from and depicts society I feel it's valid when discussing the issues of social interaction within the modern 'developed' world) 
Nonentity: 
i preemptively snarked that point over 100 posts ago :) 
Willem 
you really gotta read more carefully. 
 
"you really gotta read more carefully."

You can say that but it's a cop out. Present a counter argument - don't just tell me I'm wrong. And do it in the film thread so I can ignore it. 
No 
you didn't provide any counter-arguments to my post at all, just a short misinterpretation and dismissal of one small point. 
 
Ahh, well played then. I guess we can stop talking about this now. 
Can We Get Back To Frib Looking Down On Us Now? 
 
Hmm 
Damn j00 metl! That and the general 1 liner spam on func_

You read Survivor btw? I find it a nice take on how the media has caused the whiny emo culture reviled in Fight Club 
I Have Read Survivor... 
Survivor is probably my second favorite (after fight club) among his books that i've read. I liked choke too. 
 
I whine, because my life means little, I accomplish little, nothing is wrong yet it is empty and meaningless. I am aware that whining makes me a dick; being a narcicist is the closest to meaning I have. 
Go Suicide... 
... and stop whining.. :P

Who's next ? 
Lol 
168 you rule, you should have just added that you're spoiled but also a misunderstood genius 
#168 
i bet you have that funny hairstyle that is sort of floppy and covers one eye and makes you look a bit like hitler 
I Can't Understand 
how people can go around with that hairstyle. It would bother me a lot not being able to see. 
Hmm 
the one guy I use to know who looked like that beat another guy to death with a parrot cage. 
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