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ToeTag 2.0 + Source Code
I've released a reset of ToeTag as version 2.0. The version checking appcast/Sparkle set up is jacked at the moment but ignore that. One day I'll work up the energy to figure out what's wrong with it (but not today).

As an added bonus, I've included the source code as an optional download as well! If you've ever wondered what a badly written Mac application looks like, wonder no more!

http://wantonhubris.com/toetag/Download.html

Enjoy!
Cool. 
I downloaded it and the source. Maybe I'll even manage to get around to running it this time... 
 
Did you ever managed to get your experiments with meshes->brushes working in this? That looked promising. 
 
It's close and the code is still in there. I haven't got it working 100% yet. I need to let my subconcious chew on it for awhile. It's fairly hard problem, truth be told. For me, anyway... 
Do You Expect It To Work On A PPC Mac? 
Because it doesn't seem to work really -- File > New doesn't do anything, for starters.

I don't boot OS X very often on my MacBook (I have to use Ubuntu for work). 
Mwh 
what do you do for work? aren't you a python developer? 
 
mwh

It should work if you've set it up correctly (i.e. told it where your Quake direcotry is).

The fact that it starts up means that, yes, it's running on your PPC. :)

I've run it on my iBook before and I know of at least 2 other people with PPC machines who verified that it works for them. Not sure what to tell you.

There should be a "toetag.log" file in your Quake directory. Anything of note in there? 
Duh 
I had some corrupt pak files that toetag was tripping over it seems. A bit of a tidy up and at least a window appears when I select New, so that sounds like success for today.

Inertia: I work for Canonical on Launchpad these days. Not really involved in python-dev stuff any more. 
 
Great! Remember, there are a few tutorials to get you used to it if you get stuck:

http://wantonhubris.com/toetag/Tutorials.html 
Mwh 
that's really cool, how did you get started with canonical? 
Hmm, Still Seems A Bit Crashy 
For instance, opening BASE.WAD from quaddicted crashes in (in [NSOperationLoadTextureFromWAD main] according to CrashReporter).

Currently downloading 1.1 gigs of xcode, maybe I'll have more info for you at some point :)

Semi-relatedly, what license are you releasing this under? Is there any chance of opening up read-only access to the subversion server (that I only know about because of the .svn files in the tarball :). 
 
"Currently downloading 1.1 gigs of xcode, maybe I'll have more info for you at some point :)"

You should have XCode on your Leopard installation CD ... unless you have to download a new version or something.

As for licenses ... I dunno. Do whatever. :) I'm not fussy about it.

And the SVN server isn't mine so I'm not really at liberty to open it up to anyone. And there are SVN files in the archive? I didn't know it created those. I'm pretty new to all of this in case it wasn't obvious. :) 
Argh 
that .svn bullshit is hard to get rid of, since (within dirty windows ;) there's no real way to search for the folders other than by eye. You can SEE them if you're displaying hidden folders, but you can't actually search for them (using a file search) and delete them that way.

I was just trying to nuke the SVN crap from about 60 folders a few minutes ago... similar situation to this, I wanted to send some stuff to another machine while maintaining the directory structure, minus the SVN stuff of course. 
 
svn export is your friend :) 
 
I find very little of SVN to be my friend, actually. 
Yeah 
Willem, use SVN export when you want to release a source package. There are two very nice graphical SVN clients you might want to check out:

http://www.versionsapp.com/ and http://www.zennaware.com/cornerstone/

Personally, I prefer Cornerstone. Frib, on Windows you can use TortoiseSVN

http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/

to create an export.

mwh, I can give you SVN committer status if Willem doesn't mind, but depending on the scope of the changes you intend to do, it might be more useful if you just create patches and send them to Willem so he can integrate them. That's between you two :-). 
I'm Contractually Obliged To Plug Bazaar Here I Think 
But I actually do like it too. http://bazaar-vcs.org

SleepwalkR, I'd be entirely happy with read-only access (I'd like to import the svn history into Bazaar, in fact). Who knows whether I'll get inspired to make changes...

In other news, I built myself a debug version after a bit of random flailing and of course it doesn't crash when I load the WAD :) Oh well, at least I can make a boxmap now. 
 
Hooray for different results from different build machines on different processors. *sigh* 
 
As for the SVN, I'd prefer that changes be run through me first. I don't want to be a control freak but at the same time I don't want the editor jammed full of features that most people will never use. :) I fully subscribe to the 80% rule - add features that 80% of your users will use and tell the other 20% to deal with it. 
Texture Locking On Rotations 
justification of textures via buttons.

brightness control for texture viewing

on that WC3.3 has and one it dont :(

(I think I'm repeating myself here, and interrupting rudely, and with no real point) 
SVN Export 
Ahh, yes. Someone mentioned that to me today here at work (the export option). I didn't know about that one. Handy! (We do use TortoiseSVN here). 
TortoiseSVN 
Am I the only that is killing the TSVNCache process every 30 minutes cause it's slowing down my computer horribly? Fucking hate it. 
Bal 
You can minimize the I/O produced by TSVNCache by restricting TortoiseSVN to only scan certain directories. You can set that up somewhere in the preferences. You can include and exclude directories - I suggest you only include directories that actually contain subversion repositories, otherwise the cache process will continually scan your entire hdd for changes. 
See Here 
SVN 
the bane of modern industry 
SleepwalkR 
Yeah, I've already done that, but obviously the dev directories I AM using are the ones with thousands of files... =\

Oh, and sorry for hijacking this thread with SVN stuff. 
You Know 
perforce is only like $900 a seat! 
 
Perforce is free for 2 or fewer users. 
It's Not A Subversion Problem 
it's a tortoisesvn problem. You can always use another client or the command line tools. 
Willem 
A lot of narcotics are marketed similarly. 
 
"A lot of narcotics are marketed similarly."

I fail to see the issue. A guy at home can use Perforce all he wants for free and then he can upsell his company on it when he learns how great it is.

Comparing it to drug dealers is disingenuous at best. Are all indie developers drug dealers too for offering free demos? At least Perforce doesn't limit you to an hour of use before being locked out. 
Lunaran Is Only Whining... 
because he has to used the shared user account rather than his own.

"2 or fewer uses = free" is all and great until you have 13 people 
Hot Damn 
I did not know that about P4...I might have to get a copy. There's been a few times where I thought setting up a server at home would be handy for certain creative endeavors. It's much better than AlienBrain or any of the open source solutions.

*opens Lunaran for edit* 
Hmm.... 
I use SVN for my home stuff... works well enough for what I need. 
And... 
to be more specific, i use tortoise as the client. no massive performance problems, but I also have less than a thousand files under version control. On the other hand, maybe it's slow and I just don't notice. 
 
""2 or fewer uses = free" is all and great until you have 13 people"

Yes? At that point you need to buy a real license. It's not complicated. Perforce kicks the living crap out of stuff like SVN. It's worth it if you've got the scratch.

If you insist on free - well, you get what you pay for. 
Willem 
What makes Perforce so much better than SVN? The tools? Or is it fundamentally different from how SVN works somehow? 
 
Have you used it? That would explain everything. :)

It's got a nice user interface, it automatically handles file merging, it allows multiple people to check files out and merges their changes together seamlessly, etc.

SVN seems like it does the bare minimum where Perforce goes the extra mile.

SVN is fine and since it's free it's hard to complain really. Especially on Mac where it seems to be the only choice for some reason. 
Err 
svn does automatic file merging as long as it's possible to figure out what to do. svn does everything i desire from a vcs. UI isn't one of the things, i use the svn cmdline all the time, because it's so much clearer and easier to use than graphical uis. 
 
"i use the svn cmdline all the time, because it's so much clearer and easier to use than graphical uis."

LOL 
 
That stuff you mention about Perforce sounds a bit like Git or Mercurial to me.

I recently started using svn for my quaddicted stuff, it's super handy and more than enough for me. Using kdesvn as gui tool because I am lazy.
Commandline is nice and easy too. 
 
Guys, command line is never nice and easy. It's 2008, FFS. I was done with command line tools once I moved off of DOS (except for compilng Quake maps where I had no choice).

At any rate, I'm not saying SVN doesn't work. It obviously does. But Perforce is superior. 
Commandline 
I love it. It's probably one of the major reasons why I love Linux so much. I like being able to save a "line of command" and re-use it later to get the same result as earlier. Or use it for batch processing. Or to easily launch a certain quake map or mod (though I would love to have a nice frontend for that...).
Again a matter of preference and personal taste. 
GUI 
Richt click on the shortcut to Fitzquake and type it there. Still need a mouse!!! But hey, I'm gonna need a mouse anyway right?

Y'know when they play tennis and someone serves an ace at like 150Mph or something.

Well someone should mod Quake so that when you press:

`quit

it times the amount of time it takes to do it in milliseconds, and then writes it on the screen. "Exit" should be quit.

Then we could have a "quit-off". And send demos. "Who's the fastest quitter thread". 
 
... what? 
I Am The Fastest Quitter 
I haven't finished a project in years 
Willem 
Apart from the nice GUI, SVN has all of what you mentioned above. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just saying that most of the complaints you have seem to be because of lacking tool support. I agree that this is a huge problem with Subversion. The recent Mac clients I mentioned earlier have improved the situation somewhat, but they're still far from optimal. The only decent SVN client I know is the Subclipse plugin for the Eclipse IDE with its Synchronize View.

Obvsiously, the command line allows you to do everything, and I sometimes use it as well, but it's just not convenient. I don't know how one should remember all those options and switches that the svn command understands... I certainly can't. 
 
I've been using "Versions" and it seems be pretty good. 
Oh My God Willem 
sudden honor-driven defense of demo-driven sales methods

smiling is when the corners of your mouth go up and you feel amused 
 
Oh you were joking. OK then. 
Willem 
Try Cornerstone - I find it to be better.

http://www.zennaware.com/cornerstone/ 
The 'next-gen' Open Source Version Control Tools 
git, bzr, hg, even darcs -- all work ok on OS X. But the tool support is even ropier for them, of course. Never used a commercial VCS. Apart from Visual Source Safe -- which was possibly even worse than just copying files around :) 
 
Don't mention SourceSafe when talking about source control systems. It's like bringing up ground chuck in a discussion about steak. 
Working On A Windows/Linux Port 
I finally got fed up with QuArK and decided to try ToeTag. It's great for me since I use Macs, but I usually do gaming in Windows so I thought I would try to get ToeTag working with GNUstep on Windows.

Just got the OpenGL views working today, so it can display maps!
http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq189/edog17/?action=view&current=toetag.png

There are still piles of bugs (mostly in GNUstep) to fix - mouse/keyboard events aren't working properly so you can't edit anything. However, I'm hoping it will be a reasonable project to finish. :-) 
Oh My Goodness. 
 
!!! 
Is mapping with ToeTag similar to mapping with QuArK because QuArK is the only editor that I understand how to use (yes I've tried others and i couldn't even build a room), it's like a really simplified Computer Aided Drafting program. :o 
Shine On You Crazy Diamond 
 
 
Hmm, that sounds great ericw!

Obviously also cool of willem to release the source and write it in the first place *g* 
 
That is amazingly cool, eric! Let me know if you have questions or whatever. Happy to help! 
Willem 
Does ToeTag have show .mdl in the 3d view functionality? 
 
Yes. 
Nice 
 
 
Huh, I just did some googling and I didn't know there was a way to compile Objective-C on Windows. That's awesome! GnuStep sounds cool. 
 
Willem:
Awesome, thanks. I saw on your blog were working on input refactoring and moving the texture browser to a new window - could I grab that code from you, or should I stick with porting ToeTag 2.30?

The main change I had to make to the ToeTag source was changing foreach() loops to a macro. This sucks, but GNUstep doesn't fully support Objective-C 2.0 features yet (well, in theory it does, but no one has gotten that working on Windows yet). The other problem is garbage collection is also not supported (yet), so I'll have to add retain/release/autorelease where needed. I haven't tackled that yet, but it shouldn't be too bad. So ideally if this works out, we can merge my changes into the main ToeTag code (or a Subversion branch or something).

I fixed a few more GNUstep bugs yesterday. Resizing the OpenGL views works now, and mouse events work so you can select stuff. There's something wrong with the control/alt keys so you can't do much editing yet.. but it's coming along really well :-)

meTch:
Yeah, it was the same for me. I found QuArK was really easy to learn because selection and manipulating brushes works a lot like other Windows apps (Powerpoint, Flash, etc.) I haven't used ToeTag a whole lot, but it does use modifier keys more than QuArK. I think it will be pretty easy to use once you learn them. 
 
ericw

Well, here's the thing. :) I have a new version of ToeTag (that I renamed to LevelEd) which is way cooler but it's not ready for release. It's close but I don't think I'll ever get around to finishing it.

It's got nice support for multiple WAD files, a floating texture browser, and other cool stuff.

I can send you a copy of that source code and you can see if you can work with it if you'd like. Send your email address to me and I'll hook you up (probably won't be until after the weekend though as I'm going out of town on Thur). 
 
Oh, it also has a decent set up for multiple control schemes in it - the default one has changed to mirror UnrealEd, though, since I work with that editor every day. :) 
Awesome 
My address is ewasylishen at gmail.com 
 
Hey, you know what, I lied. :) I had a few moments here when I got home so...

http://wantonhubris.com/ToeTagSrc/LevelEd_Src.zip

Hopefully that will be usable for you. It's got a common library of code and some other stuff now so have at it and see what you think. This code base is way better than the original although, unfortunately, not entire complete or bug free.

This was my start to a complete Quake editing suite which is why you see projects in there for WADEd, SpriteEd, MDLEd, etc. They all work to one degree or another so give them a compile on your Mac and see what they do.

Anyway, I might continue on with this at some point or ... if you get this all running on GnuStep, maybe just use your code base when the time comes. I have other projects right now that are sucking my time away.

have fun! 
 
Does ToeTag have show .mdl in the 3d view functionality?

I could never get that to work for some reason. Toetag was fun and refreshing to use though, unfortunately this old Mac didn't get along well with Leopard. 
 
Hi guys,
Glad to see there's some more interest in ToeTag, but sorry you're not moving it forward yourself, Willem.

I'm using it to run a basic map editing workshop in the Mac-based media lab that I run. The first day was probably the fastest selling kids workshop that we've done, so we had to put a second day in.

http://www.digitalmediacentre.org/wp/?p=333

I'll put up some info about what we come up with afterwards. 
Cool 
Shambler, go there and learn to map!!! 
:-) 
I'm no mapping master myself, so if any UK mappers fancy coming down to do some projects here, I'd be excited to hear from them. You can find my contacts on the site. 
Windows ToeTag Status 
Willem:
Thanks, the ToeTag editing suite project looks great - really ambitious. I think I'll keep working with the 2.30 code for now, since I have it all set up to compile on Windows, and the stuff I'm fixing in GNUstep will apply to the ToeTag suite as well.

Here's an update on Windows ToeTag:

Recently fixed/implemented:
- the texture searching box updates as you type
- mouse event handling, so now the camera/editing controls work and you can actually do some mapping!
- The circular slider control for rotating textures

Still need to do before a beta release:
- Fix saving
- Add release/retain calls (could be the reason saving doesn't work)
- The toolbar doesn't work
- Fix a bug with the preferences window (text field doesn't get the quake directory you select)
- Package this into an installer
- Testing/polishing 
 
I really feel for you having to do this via retain/release as none of the code was written with that in mind. I hope it isn't too painful. I just can't work without garbage collection these days. :) 
Mapping Workshop 
Our 2 days of mapping workshops for 12-16yr olds finished on Friday - I don't think I can answer any more questions for the next week !

Our PPC Macs were probably a bit under-powered to run ToeTag smoothly, but the enthusiasm of the 14 kids on the project was great to see. We had a range of approaches from the "build a cube map and fill it full of monsters", to some pretty nice teleporting and triggered traps.

One thing that is pretty clear after it, is that these poor children need you to release LevelEd, Willem! 
 
Haha, so cool. :) 
Daaaaaamn 
A workshop for learning how to make maps? Why doesn't the US education system offer classes like these? That is too coooooool. 
Seriously 
 
 
It's not formal education as such, I work for an independent arts charity. Learning in a very broad sense. In my department we do a whole range of creative technology stuff, from software training to weekends on circuit-bending or techniques for making sensor driven installations using the Arduino. Anything I can think of and find experts to tutor, really.

These mapping workshops were the quickest selling days for young people that we've done, so I think it's easily something to be developed further. The group were super-keen, some already mapping for HL2 and RPG's.

Good way to spend a couple of days though. 
Wow 
Sounds awesome! 
 
ToeTag is, by far, the most organized and clean level editor that the Quake community has ever seen. A Windows version is a MUST. 
 
I would like an alternative to Radiant. Hammer doesn't count. Please answer my lonely cries. 
 
There was a port under way ... is that still going? 
Still Working On The Port 
Glad to hear you guys are keen on it :-)

I've been a bit busy lately, but the last major thing left to do is the memory management. Right now, you can map for about 30 seconds, and then it runs out of memory. The toolbar is also broken, but I made some progress getting it working.

Once the memory management is done, it should work well enough to do an alpha release. I'll keep you posted! 
 
Right now, you can map for about 30 seconds

Sounds like a good speedmap theme... 
Its The Midnight Hour 
the hour not for sleeping

and my interest in seeing how this is going spiked

heh. 
 
Yeah, while I wait for the Starcraft 2 Beta Battle.net to GET THE FUCK UP AFTER SHUTTING DOWN 3 MINUTES AFTER FINALLY INSTALLING THE GAME AFTER WAITING ALL DAY FOR MY BETA CODE it would be good to hear some positive news on this project :D 
 
It's going pretty well! I fixed up the memory management stuff last week, which was probably the most tedious part of this.

There are still a lot of bugs to fix - it's not really usable yet. If you want to check out the current state of the port, grab the following installers:

http://ftpmain.gnustep.org/pub/gnustep/binaries/windows/gnustep-system-0.24.2-setup.exe
http://ftpmain.gnustep.org/pub/gnustep/binaries/windows/gnustep-core-0.24.3-setup.exe
http://www.ualberta.ca/~ericw/ToeTag-0-setup.exe

I don't know if this will work, but it would be cool to hear if you can start it up! 
 
Is there a way to run that exe on Linux (like some Mono applications)? 
Probably Not 
but the only reason you can't compile it natively on Linux is there are a few bugs in GNUstep with having multiple OpenGL views in X11. Once those are fixed, it will run on Linux :-) 
 
nothing happened. i see the process in the task manager, but nothing pops up.

w7 x64 
 
Same for me on WinXP (in VirtualBox). I also tried going back to the GNUStep theme (as the installation suggested a possibly-bad Windows theme which I let it set) with no effect. Started ToeTag.exe from the (nice!) shell. 
 
i tried with the shell program. it just gave me a command prompt (what's nice about that?) and i took a stab in the dark and just typed 'toetag'.

but same result, i see it in task manager, but nothing pops up. 
Thanks For Trying 
I probably did something silly. I need to set up a fresh Windows VM for testing. 
Found The Problem, I Think 
There were some problems with the Preferences window. Try opening the GNUstep terminal and typing:

defaults write ToeTag quakeDirectory "c:\your quake dir" 
 
didn't seem to do anything, same thing happens as before. 
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