Cel Shaded Q1?
i'm there :)
You Bloody Genius
Shots Look Interesting
Lighting looks quite cool from the shots on the white textures....
I'll try it soon - Im gonna go for a lunch break now so I'll do it...
I respect your artistic vision, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think the visual style is absolutely horrid. That's pretty much all the negative I'm going to say about it though.
Considering you're from Epic, the minimalist approach is something unexpected and bold. I haven't played it yet, will try to tonight, so I can't comment on gameplay (no shots with monsters?)
Also: even though you went with an extremely experimental and 'abstract' approach, you still have crates in your map! :P
Hey, crates are Quake and Quake is crates. (say that 5 times fast)
Oh, and you might appreciate the style more in motion. It looks cooler when you're running around. You may still hate it, and that's fine, but don't judge it entirely from the shots. :)
Shots look interesting: gonna play that now !
Woah that was cool, really liked the transition to textures and the atmosphere with the writing on the wall and the dead bodies lying around. (Gotta learn how to implement those myself) I will check out your source for sure. Really enjoy your maps! How do you make them so fast? I would like to see you record a desktop video of your process.
loved it. Very fresh, very crisp and clean. Reminded me od a traditional japanese house interior. Was there a Q3 map that fully went for that style?
I like how the textures draw attention to the brushwork, which was very clean and solid. It seems that you've deliberately avoided crazy Geocomp style architecture, and that makes the experiment more interesting I think. More restrained than I would have expected.
It's a good reminder that quake can in fact handle bright colour palettes. I can't remember a level since http://retroquake.planetquake.gamespy.com/blog/?p=103
that that tried it.
The one jarring thing is that standard quake items and enemies don't fit in visually, but that's not a flaw as such, it's pretty much an inevitability.
After not playing quake for a while I always forget how much I enjoy the movement and the gameplay, jesus christ. For me, the gameplay and the mood of quake have always been equally strong reasons why I love the game, but I've never felt them to be strongly linked together, just two separate things that a lot of us really like that come in one package.
A lot of people call the gameplay 'visceral' but I'd say it's really quite quite cartoony: it's run and gun, shoot and jump, bounce dodge and weave. It's mechanical and fun, it's almost like a sport. The style is a mixture to be sure, but its muddy and foreboding, Lovecraft and strange ancient evil, and that style screams Silent Hill gameplay, it suits survival horrors with clunky controls and a sequence of terrifying scripted events (by Lemony Snicket).
I don't want to rant and derail the thread, but this project got me thinking (as successful experimentation should I suppose)... to me, the Quake gameplay made a lot of sense in this abstract stylised setting. Team Fortress 2 springs to mind - they essentially realised that it doesn't make sense to have guys doing rocket jumps when it looks like they're from Call of Duty 8.
In a further possible tangent, I know that we always talk about the "Big Community Project
" and it never happens, but if it did, and it wasn't to be a scene-by-scene recreation of Quake that no one else would play, it seems clear to me that we should take EITHER the gameplay or the style and run with that, and make the form match the function.
In conclusion, (and slightly back on track) this is an abstract theme, and it's an abstract game. It's very obviously a game too, it never attempts to be realistic, and that's especially obvious if you've been away from it and playing modern games for the past few months.
Hopefully this starts a trend for maps with abstract visuals, it seems like there's definite potential there.
I liked this because it was very unsettling as a whole. The "holy shit, where am I and what is this" feeling kept increasing as I progressed further and further. It was a definite plus how every other room had its separate sub-theme, made the map more memorable as a whole.
The ending was the best example of this. Gameplay-wise it needed to be more intense, it kind of felt unfinished (too short and weak). The texturing however was brilliant.
Seeing zombie dogs bite zombies to death would have been a great scene but it was something of a missed opportunity ):
Ummm yes. I managed to exit without going down underground, which was weird.
I respect the concept but didn't find it that inspiring personally. I quite like the gameplay although it is very easy.
Good to see people trying new stuff anyway. There's probably some potential here.
Yeah - Thanks For A Lunchbreak Of Fun!! ;P
I enjoyed this to say the least. The visual style was cool - very surreal. I also liked the bodies and the decals. Looks like you had a lot of fun making it! Nice!
I dont think its fair to say that it looks horrid, although it is a matter of opinion. It looks DIFFERENT. Which is nice - refreshing. The QMB engine has a mode for cell-shading, which looks quite cool - would make the models look cell-shaded also, although I used FitzQuake.
I found all three secrets (see demo) but I cheated to find the last one (not the "end" one, but the "first" one)
I would say it was a bit easy. I enjoyed the bits where I was let loose with a SSG on a load of grunts. But I thought that the SNG was overkill. It would have been more fun taking out the Enforcers with an SG, let alone and SSG, let alone and SNG!!
But hey - I had great fun, and the brushwork was really neat. I like the downwards sloping curved corridors. That stuff can be a pain in the arse to line up right.
Willem - Have you ever played my map "Thehand"? - It has a corridor with a curved-arch ceiling, which slopes down and round. Probably the hardest thing I have ever made. Its *literally* the first corridor you come to, if you wanna check it out....
(The ceiling is a func_wall, mind) :P
Anyway - full kills, 2/3 secrets (without cheating), skill 3!:
"But hey - I had great fun, and the brushwork was really neat. I like the downwards sloping curved corridors. That stuff can be a pain in the arse to line up right. "
Oh lord, you don't know how many times I had to fix that thing. Leaks, corrupted geometry, etc. Sometimes you just want to scream.
Try Doing It
with a curved ceiling!
Willem, I have a problem extracting the wip file: all the extracted files are 0kB... I want a clean archive... or a tips that would help... please :(
I tried with WinRAR instead of WinZip, and it worked fine now... I'll run play themap now ;)
This Was A Triumph
I think the map looks cool. Brushwork and texture work well together. I didn't like the blood stains/text very much and that biohazard text felt out of place, too. The third secret (which I found before realizing where the regular exit was supposed to be) adds a special nuance to the map which is very nice and probably necessary to make it stand out from a mere concept piece.
Gameplay was easy on skill 2, with so (too) many medkits and fun zombie carnage. I died once because I was so stupid as to miss the GL.
A nice little concept map - that is, if the texture on the sides of that droning tech thing in the basement hadn't been misaligned!
Here is a demo, complete with unspectacular play style and silly comments: http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/whiteke.zip
go play my SM134 (avec le Fitz) while you're still in the mood.
"that is, if the texture on the sides of that droning tech thing in the basement hadn't been misaligned!"
Spoilers for all who played it:
Gurer ner gjb rkvgf sebz guvf yriry. Lbh jnag gb svaq gur bgure bar. Hayrff lbh nyernql qvq (juvpu lbh jvyy xabj). Bx? :)
White Room & Darkplaces
Hah, neat! What's casting the blue and pink lights? Does DP cast light from pickups or something?
And I LOVE the first shot with the reflective slime. Cool looking!
Good layout, fine to play!
First it gave me the idea of Tron on a undercooled mission, but after some time the map progress asked me more attention.
The rounded corridors with the sloped ceiling were good indeed, on a small clip error.
But in compare to the whole map this is just a small concern. While playing I had the idea the health was much more one places in the start where there were less monsters as on places near the slime quarters.
Found all secrets by accident (was really nurked while I couldn't get back to the start halfway) and died three times.
Good work! Wish I could map that precisely.
i've no idea where all these color lights come from, usualy you need lit file for colored light...after all that years darkplaces still surprises me. and for reflective slime you need this file - http://urre.quakedev.com/water/dp_pretty_water_small.zip.
unzip pk3 archive into id1. than start level and in console type r_glsl 1 and exec water.cfg.
wow... This map is really visually so different, and so good... What can I say more: I want others !! Go map !!
It's an interesting map, well put together, and I don't like to rain on the parade, but there are a couple issues.
Technical issues: Map didn't run in Joequake nor Tyrquake under Linux, only FTE would run it. Hard locked my X server. Tried unzipping twice, and running normal maps with the whiteroom progs. It's the BSP. Apart from that, the effect of the tidy black stripes is naturally lost in software. That's to be expected though.
Human issues: It strains my eyes. It's also one of a couple maps that gives me that "motion sickness" feeling. It's the textures. I believe it happens when I can't clearly see a difference in floor, ceiling etc. and my 3D perception gets confused (no sky, no defined up and down, hard to estimate distances). It happens to a number other people, too, but it's different for everybody. Some have reported getting this feeling in Descent (no defined up and down in that game, plus very pixelated look), in Wolf3D (monocolored floor and ceiling textures, very low ceiling, checkerboard patterns), even in Doom. One guy said it happened to him in Half-Life (some of the textures there are kinda bright and sameish).
The other Quake map where that happens to me is Baker's "Undergate". Take a look at it and you'll know why.
I've played newer space shooters however (non-pixelated ones), and interestingly it did not happen there.
It also doesn't happen in all of id1, Zerstorer etc ("normal" maps).
I realize most people don't give a shit, but it might be an unusual/interesting aspect, so I'm bringing it up.
Sorry. I pressed the big red buttons this time though. :)
"Map didn't run in Joequake nor Tyrquake under Linux, only FTE would run it."
That's weird. Fitz ran it so I figured it was good to go. Sorry about that!
So It Turns Out
I found the alternate ending before the primary one! Cool.
That was really nice. Made a refreshing change.
Can't add anymore to what's been said already. I did think half way through it would be nice to have some contrasting textures.. and thanks to the hints, indeed I found the second exit. ;o) Yes it was too easy but nontheless a very pleasant distraction.
It ran fine in Joequake 1.5 in Fista.
Very nice map played on hard and loved the white textures and the contrast with base textures!!! some spwans could bring more fun to map becouse gameplay in my opinion was very easy, maby becouse it had to many health boxes!!!
but gameplay was never borring!!!
small demo of my small first run!!!
P.S-> the only secret i found was my kid that said to me :p hehe i was helping wife at kitchen when he made is game... then when i was playing he gave me the tip...hehe
p.s2-> more please!!!
Just watched all the demos - thanks guys! I love when people make comments as they play. It's totally entertaining. :)
Wait A Minute,
I thought I knew all the Cthulian dialects :\
You're the only person I saw in the demos who just refused to let the enforcers do their jobs. :) But whatever works...
"I thought I knew all the Cthulian dialects :\"
Oh don't stress that too much. I made some of that crap up. :P
About Tyrquake on Linux, it really badly hangs the X server. And that makes me think that this is a pretty bad flaw in the engine(s), not the map.
Also, there is SDL-Fitzquake which runs it fine. Oh, Software, well let's always ask for more more more! ;)
The clipping error MadFox found really interests me. Does it mean that the map is "badly VISed"? One can a big part of the map from there. Or is that spot only "exploited" by going there? How does this happen and how could one have spotted it?
I Got Stuck There Too
It's not related to VIS (<- it only determines which parts of the map are visible from where, everything else are QBSP affairs).
Such clipping issues can occur on all brush corners. Misaligned brushes can be responsible, but more often than not the brushwork in those spots is perfectly fine. It usually helps to re-insert the brushes at the end of the .map (c/p), move them by 1 unit or use a very thin clip.
The only safe way to detect them is by moving along all walls and corners.
the visual concept was neat, but, it never really rose above what it would have looked like if this was a blocked-out map, ready to hand to an environment artist to re-skin. Or perhaps a fully textured map with an invalid path to the wad file.
One thing that did benefit from the stark style was the focus on the few textured elements you chose to include. Though, they could have stood out in a fully-texture map too, just by choosing the right lighting and color schemes.
you make a note in the readme about "greying out" in software quake, implying that it's unavoidable. Players can actually address the problem by setting higher r_maxsurfs and r_maxedges values, so the problem isn't much of an issue. (most players would have these set by now, if they play any maps made since 1998.)
I never noticed that clip error which is unfortunate. As noted earlier, that hallway was a bitch to get (and keep) working so I'm not surprised that it barfed on me. Ahh well, at least you don't die from walking into that spot or something tragic like that.
"Or perhaps a fully textured map with an invalid path to the wad file."
Geez. I hope it would have at least risen above the level of "texture not found" errors. :) I did put a bunch of effort into aligning those black and white textures. Oh well.
Uh... Kinda Neat...
... But it does not quite cut the cake for me... While I loved gameplay (maybe a tad on the Easy side) the all white environment somehow clashes with monsters and items IMHO...
In this style, I loved much better an old experimental engine that rendered everything as a blueprint, or a sketch (you could choose). That pretty much had the same result as this... But you were able to play any given map in this style.
Oh, architecturally wise, I did not find any way to get back from the "normal area", I don't know if such a way exists... This is a big let down for me, I regard backtrackability as a big plus in a map.
Anyways, always glad to see Willem's work, keeps up us mac users' spirits!!!
This is my 1st nightmare run, 100% Secrets and kills(missed a weapon, tho...), if anyone's interested...
THIS IS MY 1ST NM RUN!
It Was Pretty Nice
easy as shit, but in a pleasant way.
I was playing through last night and it seemed so familiar (the style not the map).
I finally figured it out, NPRQuake Sketchy renderer produces a similar visual effect but on normal maps:
settings were fair, but I apreciate maps where I can play without hanging droppedout aside my keyboard afterwards killing tons of monsters.
"I finally figured it out, NPRQuake Sketchy renderer produces a similar visual effect but on normal maps: "
That's cool as shit! Love it...
Yeah I Remember That...
the sketch mode was definitely the best
Willem wasn�t suppose to kill the Enforcers? :)
You CAN but you could let them thin the zombies out a little first, you know? :)
my will to kill is stronger :p
this is awesome! thats all i can think of saying :)
i may have been a little harsh. The bold color palette is effective.
The criticism i was trying to make was simply that, given the stylized look, the geometry felt like the same type of geometry that would go into any other map that didn't have this unusual texture theme -- it wasn't super-detailed or strangely shaped like "geocomp" maps that various people made for Q3, it wasn't extra-blocky/abstract like Tron, either.
""I finally figured it out, NPRQuake Sketchy renderer produces a similar visual effect but on normal maps: "
That's cool as shit! Love it..."
...that's the mod I was talking about....
This was a refreshing experience for me, the map looked almost like a cartoon world.
My only real complaint is that it was too easy, even on nightmare. I need some punishment!
But other than that, great stuff here Willem, especially the enforcers fighting the zombies, reminds me of Half-Life 2 somewhat.
Hope to see more from you. :)
Still Havent Played It
but reading the comments I wondered whether Willem, who's 'new' to Func, knew about the geocomps that people kept referring to.
Actually, I don't. What's a geocomp?
Ahh OK, thanks! Yeah, kinda similar.
Geocomp Is Awesome
Nunuk's blue map 'Platypus' is really beautiful, one of my favourites.
Too bad nobody does stuff like that anymore...
Wasn't there also some sort of geocomp event for Q1 using only noise textures?
Ah Necros' Map Easily Wins
GET ON THE HOTDOG!
Most ridiculous map I've ever seen.
I don't want to derail the thread. Spirit: Answer in GA.
sm48_daz was the map I was thinking of... though I thought it had more colors than that...
I had to load up quake to remember which map that was :P
Enjoyed the map overall, the visual theme was nice although I think it may have worked better with actual white trim made of geometry rather than a texture with a white border, as you can see some stretching in some areas, but that is a minor niggle.
It was great to see the enforcers eradicating the zombies on their own, I waited until the enforcers had killed off the zombies in most cases and then took down the enforcers myself to save ammo.
It would have been cool to see some more abstract environment design taking advantage of the theme, it felt like the gameplay and 'story' of the level was quite detached from the visual theme in nearly all cases. maybe something more akin to the Tron movie / game would have suited the environment better.
I did like the blood writing on the walls, has someplay been playing System Shock 2 / Bioshock? :)
GET ON THE HOTDOG
I knew at least scampie would keep it real. That's old school rules baby.
...that's just Scampie's lust for giant sausage.
The visual style was most effective/interesting in the starting lift where I for a while was wondering what was going on before realizing that I was going down. After it's not in anyway bad but doesn't really add anything either.
Overall it's a solid base map with some nice zombie/enforcer scenes staged in the way you don't see often in quake (but most FPS from half-life and onwards). The ending came really abruptly though and took away a little bit of the experience - I was watching the enforcers gun down the zombies and then just picked some of the the last ones off never leaving the upper level I entered the area on and then just BAM - THE END! me: what?
You didn't find the real exit. :)
I didn't like it. Respect for trying something different, and I truly appreciate someone from Epic taking a minimalist approach to texture/detailing.
Here are the problems I have with it.
Visual style was boring/sporadic it seemed, and definitely inconsistent. At first when I saw the screenies I thought "Woah an abstract approach. There's gotta be some innovative architecture and style." Then I play it, and it's a base map. With white walls. Well, why not just texture it in base textures, like the 2nd half of the map? If you were going for an abstract approach, why make it a base map instead of doing some innovative geocomp style? Why not go one step further and make an abstract slime/water texture (all green, all blue?)
There's just something about the idea of "abstract" and "base map" where the two concepts clearly do not work together. It would be an attractive base map with idbase/cr8set/spdbz textures, or an interesting abstract/geocomp map with a different setting. Instead, you end up with a fairly ugly base map with lots of cubes. I personally don't think it works at all, but others have expressed otherwise, so what do I know.
Another problem with the style was something bear had a problem with. I was collecting ammo, not realizing that I was about to step into an exit. Why even have the first exit at all? I had to play through the map again because there are two exits? Why? What purpose does it serve? It wasn't immediately recognizable to me either because it didn't have the regular textures; I assumed it was just bizarre base-stuff.
As for gameplay, it was short with lots of weapons/ammo given to you right away. I don't really like that kind of gameplay myself, but there's nothing wrong with it. I just like a more steady progression, but for such a short map I suppose you can't really spread out the weapons all that much.
Basically, while I really do respect the attempt to do something different, I just think the map fails on many levels, and gameplay is not good enough to carry the level.
Yeah, I failed on that first exit. It's the exact same shape as a slipgate and it has a pulsing light on it but that's not enough to make it stand out. I should have placed it better or made it more obvious.
Yeah, the pulsing light is very subtle. TBH, I had to go back and look to make sure there was a pulsing light. Then it took me a minute to even see it. Also, yeah it's the same shape, but without the textures it's not immediately recognizable. Also, you tucked it away in a corner behind a support beam instead of giving it its own room to signify "Hey you dumbfuck, this thing is important."
Since other textures had writing on them, a sign saying "Exit" on it or near it could have sufficed.
Ironically, the second exit was more recognizable even without the textures just because of the area leading up to it.
So... I Played It
Gameplay was kinda easy, despite the monsters being used well. I think having both the GL and the SNG was overkill, but given the natire of the map, the GL was necessary.
Lack of transparent liquids sucked, although the map ran well with novis in DP. Lack of impulse 12 sucked even more. WTF is with people using the 1.01 QC source?
NG was hidden interestingly. Armor and health seemed about right. You could argue that the second GA isn't needed, but I don't think that the map suffers because it's there. Felt like there was a little too much ammo, especially with the grenades. I didn't feel any major need to be careful about my shots, even though I was.
Interesting idea for a map, though...
second exit? I guess i should play it again.
I assumed the monster count was so low only becuase i hadn't waited around for everyone to kill everyone else.
When the lift in the final room rises, there's a zombie down in the pit there. He's trying to tell you something.
He's Trying To Tell You Something.
He wants your hot body....
Cold will do, anything really. He's been stuck in that hole rotting for a while and is pretty hungry.
I Don't Get It
I didn't enter any exit at all as far as I could tell, the map just ended without warning.
You walked into a slipgate covered in white textures. I failed, that should have been more obvious. At any rate, that's not the 'real' exit. Investigate the area under the lift you triggered...
I dont think you failed. You cant please 'em all....
Best help of a Quake player :)
bind "TAB" "+showscores"
you always now how much to kill and how near to end you are ;)
Liked It Quite A Bit
someone else said it earlier but I think the fact that it doesnt go crazy with geocomp type architecture works in its favour as it doesnt become too distracting but just a distinct style. Gameplay was fun too.
I don't have much to say about the map that hasn't already been said. Interesting concept, but kind of dull gameplay-wise.
I will however second Lardarse's comment about the missing impulse 12. I use the mouse wheel for changing weapons, and not having the CycleWeaponReverseCommand really throws off my game.
So please Willem, next time you do a QC mod, use the 1.06 source! :)
Crashes In Fitz 0.85
SV_TouchLinks: next != L->next - this would happen sometimes right after the map was loaded, sometimes a second after the elevator started
does it actually crash, or just display that message and keep going?
FYI: that message indicates that fitzquake attempted to repair the linked list rather than hanging right then as previous engines do, but doesn't guarantee that the list is actually repaired and it might crash or hang later in the list anyway. The problem is caused by questionable QC practices. For more discussion, see the i3d thread here:
Fitzquake freezes after that message displays in console.
/me replays this in 0.80
okay, that sucks if this actually causes a hang in cases that used to be okay in previous versions. I'll investigate a more proper way to fix this situation for next time.
yes indeed, looks like my fix just caused more problems.
I've encountered a strange issue with this map. If I start it using Fitzquake085, the map loads but almost freezes immediately. The CPU would show usage at 100%, and Fitzquake would not respond. I would have to use ctrl alt del to get out. Fitzquake085 works fine for any other map tho. This map also works fine on Aguirre Quake. This issue is not related to heapsize as it happens regardless of what I change it to. Any ideas?
unfortunately this is a known problem in Fitzquake 085 that causes it to hang when running White Room, but there are no known workarounds.
I suggest you just play it in another engine for now, such as Aguirre's engine, or in an earlier version of Fitzquake.
Okay, on my setup it didn't display the SV_TouchLinks: next != L->next, wasn't sure if it was the same issue
the map was unplayable for me as well, but only because for no reason at all, impulse 12 was removed. (wtf)
yes, the crash is related to an attempted fix of SV_TouchLinks-related crashes in other maps/mods. Somehow fixing them broke this map, so it was not a good fix.
THIS FREEZES FITZ085 ON WINDOWS 7???
WHY DOES IT FREEZE FITZ085 ON WINDOWS 7????
(right at the beginning on the elevator, about five seconds in)
KNOWN ISSUE, EH?!
(and still no fix - qc/map...)
it's fitzquake that is broken, not this map (presumably, since it works in other engines and older fitzquakes.) So it seems weird that willem would patch his map.
But On The Other Hand
why would fitzquake's fix fail only in this particular map and not in any other if it wasn't for some glitch in either qc or map setup?
If it's the maps fault, I can't imagine what it is. As metl said, it works in other engines and earlier versions of Fitz. Logically, the problem must lie with Fitz 0.85.
I played it in DP then (whose blood effects fit especially well here).
Still, I'm very disappointed with the two of you on principle. :)
Directq will also work, looks really nice too
I agree with Zwiffle's somewhat critical post #79. It did look good in my opinion but I kept thinking that the visual style is simply unnecessary because, well, it's clearly a base map.