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This is a thread about a project currently underway to remake Quake one.

It involves upgrading what exists already in order to play and look better or at least differently in all probable situations and enhance what is already there in this great game.

So we're remixing all the maps, monsters, and the player.

A specific engine in order to solve long-standing issues isn't out of the question, the main concerns being cross-OS support for features that should be common, like entity alpha and multiplayer. These things exist in various forms, but there's still no standard, at least today.

There's a great wealth of resource on this board - the one thing that doesn't exist here is apathy.

So, we're fishing for contributors. If you can make a map, animate or code and want to see this monster through to its conception then you're on the team.

Over the next few days I'll post info on what currently exists, and where it's headed.
New Monsters 
As an idea of what's completely new:

Axe Grunt:

Partially ripped from Concentric Devastation, but much less of a knight. He gets close and smacks the player about, but dies just as easily as a grunt. A priority target.

Berserk Ogre:

Two chainsaws, no ranged. A slower fiend, maybe, but deals damage if he manages to close the distance that will put most players into the red very quickly. Most players being the ones without red armour.


The one feature thing from Qtest. Acts like an undead tank. Wanders about, vomiting bile at the player, deflating if wounded, reanimating like a zombie later on. Is a bit easy to kill with the replacement close combat attack, so is waiting on his own 'devour' melee option.

Genuinely new monsters are a bit of a red herring for this project, since the goal is to enhance the original.

Even so, everything is considered. Before being binned as a distraction - my own schemes usually dying before they reach a keyboard. 
This Is Cool 
looking forward to your updates. I'll post the link you gave me a little while back:

Those are out of date no doubt, but people might want to take a look anyway. 
We Will Need 
A graphics artist as well.

No cover it in filters crap, which I know is not your system - so good. Anything that feels right and works.

This is a Qcommunity project. 
And I forgot to post that, thanks. 
I'll spam my own thread.

Sorry for the migrane darkness screenshots - I'll post some new ones seperate. 
I would suggest integrating a remake of enitites from Zerst�rer into this project with a modernization of the monsters weapons and powerups.

Are you going for higher definition, like Blue-Shift added to Half-Life, or old time boxy but foxy Quake? 
One Other Thing 
One of the tutorials on Inside3d, the one about making a Counter Strike clone, replaces standard Quake animation in the player.qc with Quake2 animation for a greater variety of poses, certainly could be helpful. 
But with an extra vert here or there.

Model-wise the same, aprt from animation, that is.

Zer ents are, tempting, but they went their own road. Like I meant before about engines; we're not at ground-up yet, but if something gets in the way of what we want then there's no reason not to take it head on.

It's still Quake. If it was going to be a new game then we'd change the name, already the team, I'm sure, are tired of me beating the dead donkey of 'keep it Quake'.

Even though its not the Quake you load in id1, it has the same spirit. 
I'm just an observer but 2 observations/suggestions/ideas:

1. Please list QuakeC and mapping features the project may or will have. "Marketing" is everything and a list of appealing features would be helpful.

2. I would recommend you do whatever you choose with the engine including non-standard features to support what you want it to do.

2b. PROVIDED ... that these features can rather easily be added to any given engine or if an existing or new tutorial could be written.

The FitzQuake SDL that Sleepwalker made and the way it is written makes basic multiplatform support rather easy and of course DarkPlaces can run on most anything. Plus most engines that are commonly used are either actively developed or very recently so. 
I wanted to suggest Fitz SDL as well, since it has a wide range of platforms already and can easily be enhanced for additional ones if needed. If you decide to use it and need any help with it, let me know. As soon as metl releases 0.85, we plan to integrate the sources so that there is only one Fitz version in the future. 
one thing!!!

since there are many remakes already why not pic the ones that are already made and just change the entities with the authors autorizacion? will save a lot!!! :) 
Please allow players to toggle "Dodging Grunts" and "Ogres, Zombies and Vomitus Z-Aware". 
I was waiting for this thread.

This is an ambitious and huge task and you guys deserve kudos for taking it alone. I wish I could help you but my abilities are severely limited - what exactly are you looking for in a graphics artist?

A few more questions:

* Are you planning to include genuinely new maps as some sort of secret?
* What's the deal about "Overwatch Enforcers"?
* As for new monsters, whatever happened to the poison spider you'd once mentioned? 
If Only This... 
Make sure you release the source. Mappers should be free to pick and choose which features they want from different mods. 
Typing on a keypad so will be brief. Sounds like next Fitzsdl is basically the only engine that will do what we want. Not going to optionally disable features, sorry. Maybe will make maps backwards compatable. Too long writing, will answer rest later. 
Just my 2p, but I would seriously consider using an engine with q3 map support, in order to give a boost to detail levels and general mapper freedom. 
Beating The Dead Donkey Of 'keep It Quake'. 
nope, the whole team is very much guilty of this. 
If you're gonna remake it, remake it for today, not for tomorrow. I'd love to see what the quake approach would look and feel like if done for a moderately modern platform. 
Two team members prefer software. 
Keep It Quake 
+1 vote from Smables xxx 
Hm. Maybe this thread is a chance...

I'm skeptical because we were very open at qexpo, but were mostly ignored by mappers. Look at the amount of volunteers ^^

Anyway, since ijed seems busy, I'll take this one.

what exactly are you looking for in a graphics artist?

Someone who can make/modify skins, for monsters, small items and possibly a female player model. We also need an additional modeller/animator. Badly.

Apart from that, we could use one or two additional mappers.

Are you planning to include genuinely new maps as some sort of secret

Maybe. Understand that this is first and foremost RMQ. After that, it's a kickass mod that will shake the foundations. We will probably include the various testmaps we have, for example. We also have def and fgd files readily available.

What's the deal about "Overwatch Enforcers"?

Enforcer sees you come out of cover, goes "Overwatch!!!" and fires several bolts in quick succession.

As for new monsters, whatever happened to the poison spider you'd once mentioned?

Didn't seem to work.

Open source: Yes, the qc, maps and engine, if any, will be open sourced upon the first release.

Who can join? Anyone, really. What's the deal? Respect our original artistic vision (this is Quake, and should look and feel like it) and cross-platform politics.

What's the difference to ($famous_quake_mod)?

1. It changes the gameplay in all maps that use id1 progs (backwards compatible)

2. It's about making existing stuff better, instead of adding buckets of new stuff

3. Open source QC

4. Mapping based versus QC based

5. No bullshit

6. We dare to go against the player's expectations. Things like fall damage, totally different underwater behaviour, grenades that can be knocked around with rockets, monster footsteps, random health etc. Stuff where old players fall over and see stars, basically. We don't care.

New monsters, the few that we have, come from QTest and similar places. Old monsters may have flags for additional gear, behaviour etc. though.

What do we have QC wise?

1. We have most of Extras, Dragons, and Frikbot, and some stuff from custents, i3d tutorials, hipnotic etc., including the usual stuff that you know from ($other_mods) like breakables, pushables, rotating stuff, particle emitters, blah blah

2. Gyro, consequently

3. New stuff, among it custom keys.

If you can think of it, good chance we have it. 
"We also have def and fgd files readily available. "

THANK YOU! Seriously, that would be awesome. 
It's reality. We're doing things from the ground up. We have a SVN repo and ticket system. We're kinda well organized. We even comment our code. 
"Two Team Members Prefer Software." 
I'd think once whatever specs of this are done, I think it would be no problem to graft whatever changes into a modded aguirRe winquake.

Even some form of alpha entity support.

Half-Life has a software rendering option and it supports alpha brushes. I'll post a pic some time. 
Alpha Etc 
FTE supports at least transparent water in software. Not sure about alpha. Q2 supports transparent windows in software, too.

We're not using a custom engine at the moment, and don't plan to. There is a possibility that we will reach a certain point though, I'm not blind.

Cross platform support (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, BSD) and software renderer are pretty much the minimum. Clean code would be nice, too. No offense to anyone, but some engines' code is a mess. It must be maintainable and transparent.

How hard can it be to re-add the software renderer to an SDL engine. Unless it's a religious question (which would be stupid). There are examples. And there are other options, always. One point that Tyrquake, for example, has going for it is the super-clean code. Sure, no bells and whistles. Just solid engine. But I prefer a rock solid base.

I mean, if FTE, Proquake 4 and ezquake (whiz bang engines) have software, what on earth is the problem. It is a puny issue and it should be squished. It has nothing to do with any map limits or the like. No one expects wonders.

Things like MAX_SOUNDS and alpha, though, break compatibility, and thus it would be desirable that at least 4 crossplatform NQ engine coders/teams get together and create a new, extended protocol, focusing on relatively simple things - no bullshit. Within, say, the next year or so.

FTE, PQ4, Ezq, Fitz for example.

All are kickass engines, cross platform, and support NQ by now or will soon.

I want the engine issue squished like the bug it is. 
Weapon Models 
I have some that I made quite a while ago that I never quite finished. Might as well uv/texture them up. I tried to make them as faithful as possible.. I've put the original weapons in there for reference. Compare the shadows to see the silouettes.

I don't really check this board, just msg me in #terrafusion or email me (email is on my website). 
GoldenBoy answered most of the stuff there, so there's not alot to say without a 'proper' update.

Electro, I'll check your models tommorow. We have Orion's versions in atm, but the slow firing of the DBS could do with a reloading anim, and a few other things would be nice.

Using some of the current remakes would be easy, but if it means losing something of the project in order to save ourselves time then no.

The spider was a nice little enemy, it's poison was done and everything running well, but then I realised it wasn't necessary so killed it. Kudos to Dr ShadowBorg for his help, and it might even stay in the project in case future mappers want to use it.

I've no use for it in my portion of the maps and it's a map driven project. If anything ups the gameplay then it's in. If it's even a little bit iffy then it's taken into the back yard and shot in the head.

And, this is not a failing project. 
looks good electro 
Second That 
those are pretty solid. 
In case anyone didn't get this yet, this isn't Base Pack II. 
Yeah, I like the models! Nice work there.

Looking forward to seeing what you guys do with this project. I would help but I have a fairly large project that I'm doing myself. Good luck! And post lots of screen shots! :) 
Those look great, but there's a problem. If we included them then we'd have to replace all models in the game, so they'd all be at the same standard.

Which would also mean redoing all animations and textures. Since 8-bit anim with properly done models would look broken, I think.

They'll probably work well in DM, but we're mostly singleplayer.

I wouldn't want things looking patched.

Finish them anyway, since they'd work as a plugin pack on their own, I think. 
Will Post Some Shots And Stuff Today 
I Wouldn't Like 
reusing the available remake maps. Granted that, say, E2M5RMX is great, but I think it would stand out like a sore thumb amongst the other RMQs. Unless you're willing to retexture thousands of brushes :P

/me awaits the screenshots :) 
I could help - my current map is a true monstrosity which I am trying to wind up.

After that I would happily make myself available, but I would prefer it if you just set me off doing one map at a time. The rate I am mapping at the moment it could take 3-4 months to do a map. 
3-4 months to do a map.<q/>

roulfff i take one year :) dawn u�re fast ;) 
I think you've got a very good attitude about how you're approaching this project, obviously based in a real love for the spirit of Quake. I also think this project has really good chances of success - you're organised and you've got some very talented people on board.

I also like that your emphasis is on respecting the original game, but not treating everything as canon.

But I also VERY strongly agree with:

If you're gonna remake it, remake it for today, not for [yesterday (presumably)]. I'd love to see what the quake approach would look and feel like if done for a moderately modern platform.

And you clearly realise (based on your last post) that improving one aspect of graphics requires replacing everything. I think we're in agreement that coherence is THE most important thing in a quake remake.

Here's a quick offer: If you do decide to upgrade the models, I'll happily step up and do the same for all the 2d art needed. Textures, skins, particles, whatever. 
if u need something from my noobist i�m glad to help in anything needed! 
I think upgrading all of the graphics is a quick way to make this project fail. There are a LOT of graphics in the game.

Just my opinion, of course, but I don't think the game needs a face lift. I never did and I could never understand the newer engines and their desire to add normal maps and specular and everything else to Quake. Quake is beautiful. Leave it alone. 
I always thought that we'd be redoing the 2d art to some degree, even if in such a limited way as a new conback.

As to remaking for today, it's a tricky prospect. High resolution GUI, for example, might be the same as including high-poly weapon models. We have to see how the engine problem is going to pan out.

Baker, we'll be in touch :) 
To some degree, yeah. So far this includes:

2D art:
Skin variations
Skins for new monsters (vomitus etc)
Skins for new models
Probably female marine skin needed for the model we have - something like this would be a good point to help with
NPC/actor/Insane type monster, skin (planned)
Conback (so far QTest)
Modified textures (using the Quake palette - we're too far into it to change to HL bsp format or anything, and I think the original palette works fine for us, given our goal)

Most of this we can do ourselves, but everything we have to do costs us time and energy, logically, that could be used for mapping etc.

Model wise:
Orion's debug models, because they fit the bill pretty well - higher poly ones would probably stand out too much, and remodelling etc. the entire game is probably out of the scope atm, but could be done later - in a couple years...
Like ijed said, *good* reloading animation for DBS
I'd not be opposed to nicer skins or something, see above, but must be in .mdl format
Items like stimpacks, armor shards, .MDL health packs, probably worldtype dependant (some done already), and some new monster gear (small MDLs)
Animations added to some models, for new attacks etc (this we really need help with), fine tuning of existing anims (berserk ogre etc)
Taunt anims

There's more of course. So there are many little things to help with, which seem very doable on their own, but add up to a giant pile of stuff when viewed from our side.

I'd think that high resolution HUD (like Moondrunk's), conback, remodels (Ruohis etc) and textures and all that stuff should be done later, and released as add-on packs or modules to be plugged into it. A graphics-upgrade pakX.pak perhaps.

Willem is right that it would be too much atm.

I'd really like a couple engines and us getting into talks with each other. MAX_SOUNDS, MAX_MODELS and alpha might need to be squished. FTE and ezq are already doing this stuff (DP, too) and Proquake 4 seems to be on the way there.

The rest of our engine wishlist includes rockets emitting sound like in Q2 and a dedicated underwater ambient (sky and standard water ambient blended out while diving) - we'd supply the new sound required.

We have CD quality sound, no more woof woof boomstick. 
3-4 months to do a map

same here, now figure in the rest of the stuff.

Very welcome. 
It Seems A Shame 
to me to think that so much time and talent should go in to a remake rather than a set of all new episodes with new challenges and surprises.

Remakes are nice, but everybody seems to have gone a little remake crazy over the past couple of years and I can't help but feel that by the time a project of this scale is complete even more Quakers will be longing for a surge of original content. 
But it's definately not carbon-copy stuff.

All of the maps have enitely new sections to them, and whilst the original texture themes are a guideline they're not gospel.

To demonstrate, here's some shots of e3m3rq. I probably won't post shots like this again to avoid spoilers, but this should give you some idea of what's happening. Try replaying e3m3 again after looking at them.

I basically took one of the original metal textures as a base and expanded it into a set. Don't rely on the shots too much, alot is set to change. 
Missing Texture 
Damn, don't know how that happened. It's done and in, but for some reason omitted in the current build. 
ijed please install joequake or qrack for proper shots :) 
Unless I have a better engine next time . . . 
you shifted the weapons, how fresh and enhancing! 
You should know. You posted the tutorial he used to do it. 
[], if you think that's exciting, wait until you see how we've enhanced the Shambler - if you thought rocket launchers were only for CyberDemons then think again. We're turning it up to 11, punching babies and leeting it r4wk, in a nu-school format. 
Great Shots 
E3M3RMQ = koohoo meets zer1m6? 
Both the screenshots, and your description of the new Shambler reminded me of this: 
That Would Make An Excellent Desktop Background! 
Is there a more high-rez version? 
No Idea 
Probably not. 
That looks great.

There is no RL Shambler - I was being sarky.

Currently there's nothing planned for the Shambler, although he has some other features that are in most monsters, AI tweaks and some other stuff.

There's a vague plan to have him able to use electricity in a more versatile way, or cause thunderbolt type water blasts no purpose when firing into a liquid volume. 
Oh Well 
its now been stretched by windows! 
e3m3 is awesome. your shots look good. some of it a little flat in detail though. do you plan on using any custom textures? even just the odd custom here and there? 
Like I say, the whole set is adapted from that one green cubes of metal texture, though its so similar and can see how you'd have trouble seeing it.

The floor is 'new' as well - but basically a recoloured version of the famous copper semicircles floor, made into a bigger tile to eliminate repetitions.

The runes are mostly new - although I included the classic patterns as well.

The flatness is caused by the lighting and not all areas being properly completed - I'm working on six other maps and some code at the same time ;)

But e3m3 will feature alot more of those orange windows and rely heavily on the 32x32 cubes theme. Maybe some more complex static modelsto augment the candles, but for now the map is on pause.

Thanks for the interest. 
Overreacted again in post #50 :| 
In my opinion, I don't think shifting the models should be done in the model itself.

One thing nice and unique about Quake is that the straight forward view is very good for aim.

As an alternative, I would recommend using an autoexec.cfg to setting a r_viewmodeloffset cvar.

I wrote up a tutorial on how to add this into any given engine. 
That's Better 
Alpha Support To Any Glquake Engine 
Engine Features 
Are there any engine features that are particularly wanted?

A shiny new rotating system is on the cards, as well as the stuff mentioned above.

Multiplayer gets a facelift as well.

Although weather or not anyone will play the thing if its not in their engine is another matter. 
Er..... A Fully Functional OSX Port? 
Well just as long as it works in Windows, er Macs and er..... Linux?

Just to stop the raving and ranting, or even minor whinging about not being able to play...?

Lit file support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also external texure support. 
My Favourites: 
Ogg Vorbis support (for the soundtrack)
decent console tab completion
centerprint logging to console 
You mean mod support?

Multiple OS is a must because we've already got members of the team working on the big 3.

Fullbrights / overbrights . . . yeah. 
I Think He Means The Option Of Typing: 
-quoth -game moddir

(like -hipnotic -game quoth)

Multiply OS - Yey!!! :D 
AguirReQuake optional directory ordering then.

I think that was only included for the Nehahra DP engine variant, so that it wouldn't load in Nehahra default.

Suffice to say we won't block the engine to anything, though it's default folder will be that of RQ having other mod folders accessible is a must. 
and snow. 
Already In 
Well, emissions at least. 
Can I Have Some Smoke Please Ijed. 
Have you got any smoke?
And a spark. I need a spark.

I mean we've got fire! And you know what they say.... 
I saw the thing about fullbrights and centerprint logging.

This tutorial does fullbrights fairly ok for a GLQuake that doesn't have the feature (TyrQuake maybe?):

Centerprint logging which is probably the most joyous single player feature ever, I wrote up a quicky tutorial on that: 
I dont think that Quake would benefit from locational damage, or anything like that, but I do think we should have three-increment pain-skins. Or even two-increment. Just for effect. i.e. if the monster's health drops below 50% then they should have some blood on them, a few wounds maybe... follow that with the normal giblets - beautiful! 
Pain Skins... 
i always thought that was the genius thing about quake's skins -- everyone's bloody to begin with, so you never question the absence of pain skins. 
DarkPlaces Sv_progs 
I think DarkPlaces sv_progs capability is rather nice. One progs.dat per gamedir is rather wasteful.

sv_progs is "progs.dat" ["progs.dat"] selects which quakec progs.dat file to run

With being able to have multiple "progs.dat" per folder, a mod could include a "multiplayer.dat" and a "frikbot.dat" ... one optimized for multiplayer and one for playing the mod with bots or what not.

Since it is my understanding that ezQuake now supports NQ progs.dat (Tonik's ZQuake Travail capability stuff), a normal Quake mod now has a lot of additional potential uses in addition to single player capability as it will run in everything from FitzQuake to DarkPlaces to ezQuake.


.ent external entity file support; be able to tweak the entities around without recompiling ... just edit a text file. Although it would be more useful if somehow the .ent file could be reversed back into .map format somehow. 
One nice feature of FTEQCC is conditional compilation. i.e. (#ifdef BOTS_VERSION ... #endif).

I imagine mod source code could be reworked to kick out a dmsp.dat or whatever in addition to say a frikbot.dat and ye old progs.dat, etc. 
Are all handled by emissions, and there's sparks as a specific entity for ease of use.

We discussed pain skins but shelved the idea. It brings up locational damage and what constitutes a pain skin. As metslime says most creatures are already splattered with blood, so painstakingly painting on damage can get lost visually.

The one time I saw it in Quake was Kinn's Bastion on the imported Q2 Enforcer. Can't say I was a fan of him developing holes in his back from being shot in the side.

Locational damage was axed because it actually punishes the player for bad aim. 3x head damage means a player running through and hitting a monster in the feet is going to lose ammo and time. And I don't think it's necessary for the gameplay.

Separate progs for multi/single is a possibility, but we'll have to see how much the game gains in multiplayer speed with a seperate optimised version.

On the fly editing - who had this recently? Compile the bsp and edit entities whilst in edit mode - looked pretty slick. 
Entity Editing On The Fly 


(couldn't help it)

We can have separate progs no problem (#ifdef). I have successfully compiled a purely multiplayer progs that is under 300K. o_O Runs very fast and will support map voting, obs, deathmatch 3, random respawn, optionally FBX, most of that working already.

Command line choice of progs is nice, every engine should have that.

Centerprint logging as well.

.lit and .ent, yeah, Ricky's e4m1 has colored lighting, and I'd not be against it either.

External texture support could be good, because you'd all have to download less. How much less is another question.

So practically, what everyone said. If we deliver an engine that runs on Win/Lin/Mac, and even has software, I'd like to see the person who still complains to personally punch them in the face.

Especially if the thing will run in FTE, Pro, EZQ, DP, perhaps Fitz (?) and possibly even Tyrquake, as well as "our own engine", because everything we do is documented and open source...

how much more can you do? 
Can You Make It Compatible With 
Mvdsv (qw standalone server) and possibly somehow with ktx (qw dm multiplayer mod), though for the latter I don't have the faintest idea how.

Just an idea.

Will you have an spprogs.dat so it runs with a qw server? 
ezQuake (and ZQuake) and FTEQW support running Quake progs.dat. Making spprogs.dat support would be redundant, if 3 Quakeworld clients can support traditional progs.dat, the compatbility feature should be added in mvdsv as well instead of being accomodated because it is lagging behind in that department.

KTX is not a true "mod", it is built into mvdsv server and written into the server binary. 
What Baker Said 
The named clients are also cross platform +software, so from our side, they get the stamp of approval.

Having a dedicated qw progs would just change some minor physics things.

For the multiplayer, I can see why you'd want that, but no QW people will be interested in this for multiplayer anyway, or so I've been told. They don't want or need any new mods.

I can only imagine how they would *love* a mod that changes the weapon balance, introduces fall damage, model teams, dropping weapons, Gyro physics, and all that stuff.

In short, I really doubt RMQ would pass f_modified.

In singleplayer, you'll have 0 ping anyway, thus it should be bearable. 
This is an open-source project. It's too small a team to encompass Quake.

The Qc isn't open yet, because it's not finished, but if you're not a timewaster and have something to contribute then you can have access.

But sometime in the hazy future when it is finished there's nothing stopping un-thought-of engine support.

We're talking with engine coders, we'll see what happens.

How about origin brushes? 
Not Following The Thread, But... 
if you [...] have something to contribute then you can have access isn't really open source. 
Eh, until it's ready to play there's little point in open sourcing it. It'll be hard enough to get this thing working without having to manage random code submissions from well meaning strangers. 
I am curious though how things are coming along, Ijed? 
There's a long road ahead of us, the most difficult part of the project is keeping focused.

Having said that nothing is wasted - we've axed alot of stillborn ideas and what we have so far is solid enough to warrant survival.

What we really need though is a modeler / animator.

I can do it, but I just don't have the time.

In terms of % complete, I'd say maybe 25% - including code, maps, sounds, graphics etc. etc. It's a monster. 
Monsther Monsther 
I keep using that word to describe it . . .

Cheltnum 4:40 
Ive Been Mapping Like Fuck 
for about a week..... :P 
What Models Need Replacing? 
Tried sending this off my phone a couple of hours ago. Fallo.

The idea is to replace no models - just add animations. There's a handful of new models, a much easier task than the animations. There's a few that will need modification as well.

The theme is that if a dedicated modeler enters the team they'll have control over their part. 
Yes, it's mainly additional monster animations.

Stuff like knight and enforcer weapon variants, throwing animations, and eventually (in the rather distant future) taunt animations. All using id's models. Plus anything that you come up with.

Some existing models / animations could be polished somewhat. The rest are small items that we can probably do ourselves. 
The Models I Have Been Working On 
deviate far from Quake origins so I don't think they would be useful, unfortunately. 
I have some models in the Quakeworld, as a little support to work on them. I'm trying a frogman model but sofar my intention to make a walk/swim_monster_start never succeeded.

I once made a convertion of dfx models for all Quake model animations.
It would be easy to make new animations and add some frames. 
There is a thing with extracting models to dxf.
As I do so, the original base-skin texture get lost and importing them back with qmle always tends to wrong verticenumber. 
do you have a list somewhere of which models you want to add/replace animations for? and what priorities for which? 
Not Really 
We're using a site which acts as an SVN repository and also has a Trac ticket system - each monster has its own ticket detailing what extra stuff it needs in terms of everything.

There's none that won't be remaked.

Might sound strange for an open-source project, but I'm wanting to keep some secrets and not broadcast everything we want to do to the general public before we've done it.

Here's a couple of examples of the new anims we'll be needing:

Enforcer underarm throw
Enforcer vertical throw

Vore spellcast
Vore leap

I'd say almost all the monsters need at least one new animation.

If you want on the team then let me know and I'll mail access to the Assembla site and SVN. 
Enforcer underarm throw
Enforcer vertical throw

Enforcer skin: baseball uniform
Hell Knight model: replace sword with wooden bat
monster_zombie_pitcher: needs to check second base for a steal before pitching. 
Shambler 'Safe' Gesture 
Er Ijed 
I thought the vore was gonna be the pitcher...? Did I reskin him for nothing?? 
Don't know enough about baseball for a decent response to that one. 
Don't know enough about baseball for a decent response to that one.

1st base - makin' out
2nd base - touchin' stuff
3rd base - sexual relations of an oral capacity
4th base - touchdown?
5th base - ???
acoustic bass 
oh and there's also the secret base, but keep that to yourself. 
acoustic bass - got a laugh out of me :) 
Enforcer Vertical Throw 
That could do, or something very close.

All your base?

Secret base? Would that be like dirt base? 
AM2000 Base 
It's just a quick jump. I took the enforcer walk5 frame as it is the most close to a base frame, added bones and know I can make it jump anyway I want to.

Point is by converting a frame to dxf in Qmle hands me a monster I can import in a modelling studio. But when I export it to Qmle again chance is verticecount won't fit with the original.

So to make this one fit all frames also have to be reimported to match this new vertice count. Big bad is I can only make a base skin texture from the walk5 frame, and that's not the original.

And I gain with that strange mirror effect, why does it have that gun left? 
I tried converting an enforcer model to make a vertical throw act.

As I didn't import or export the model than in Quark4.07 to make the shape the models fits well in the usual enforcer scene. The verts and trices are the same so it uses the original tex. If one uses the manipulating tool in the model studio with care it can be awarding. is the RFS that fits in the original Enforcer with Qmle.
Maybe it can be usefull for Remake Quake? 
Thanks mf will check later 
I have an enforcer model with a whole stack of extra anims on it for diving, rolling, punching, kicking, etc. I will dig it out if you want. 
You are one busy boy !!! :) 
Well, not sure we'd be able to use them, but at the very least they'd be interesting to see.

We don't have anything too acrobatic planned for the Enforcer. 
Turn the enforcers into HL marines. Gwan! 
Madfox: the GIF looks good, I can't model, so can't really comment on the dxf files.

Lth: Sounds cool, I'd sure want to see it.

Ricky: Well, I just cleaned up the tickets. The list should be more readable now, and most tickets should have a DONE and TODO section now. The timeline is only for people with good nerves, though.

I got rid of titles like "Dark Evile Flora that may or may not be flora" :-E

But yes, this project is demanding. 
Mad Props ;) 
Point Of Fact 
I was thinking of adding all the new level names to the tickets next to the E*M* just so there's an easy reference. 
Stop Teasing Us With Dev Details We Can't See 
"Dark Evile Flora that may or may not be flora" sounds like a perfect description for foliage in Quake, though. 
The level names - I started doing that, but removed them because it made the list less readable.

The goal is to stop scaring people off with the tickets.

Names should go into the description IMO. There's also the search function which is actually pretty good.

onetruepurple: we have some whacko names :-E 

You are fattening up the originals with some butter and heavy cream for a delicacy beyond our wildest imaginings. I'm getting flushed with chick like feelings right now. Are those tears coming from my eyes, why yes they are!

WIP shots, lots of things missing. Shot 1 is the entrance area, shot 2 is the passage to the lift/ogre cage, shot 3 is between lowering ceiling and cave.

For some reason I have screenshot problems in X11 - need to use Joequake in 8 bit O_o 
I was going to say those look like donkey balls. Finally I can direct negke to other shots to nag about. :p

Looks very good, especially shot 1 is nice. 2 is colour soup. 3 I have a hard time finding where it is.

Seeing extremities of "myself" easily kills the immersion for me though. :( 
quakeguy grew hands! 
Comparison Shots 
Heh, negke is probably aware of my sucky screenshots.

3 is one of the (very) expanded areas. There are a lot of those in Remake, in all maps. What might be a switch in id1, may be an extra room just for the switch, or several switches/areas. A boring tunnel might become a new area, trap gauntlet, what-have-you. If an improvement suggests we should go ahead and expand on it, we often do so. What you see in shot 3 is just the final part of a winding passage that was originally a square tunnel with nailboxes and a zombie closet (only in Hard, though...). You enter through one of the outlets in the ceiling.




e3m2 is now pretty roomy, in comparison. 
and this is not meant to be offensive or anything but are you guys going to attempt to keep similar styles? Because from what I've seen of your maps so far, you have two distinct styles of mapping. Or is it an episode per person or something? 
Or is it an episode per person or something?

It is. 
nitin: Yes, our styles (as far as I already have one) are probably (hopefully!) a bit different, but atm we're working along different themes, too. It's OK if e1m2/e1m3/e1m4 seem different from episode 3 metal IMO.

It started from the one episode per person thing, but we've started to go a little more "by theme". For example I can imagine doing e2m2 and e2m6, while I'm at the brown wizard stuff. Ijed is doing all of episode 3, which is the most coherent episode anyway, but seems to be getting into more episode 4 type stuff lately. Remember his e4m4 remix. Ricky has done/is doing the ep.4 and ep.2 base maps, so at least those episodes will have maps from several persons. Collaborations aren't out of the question, for example ijed is just touching up Ricky's e4m1 (RMQ monsters etc), and there's always a lot of discussion going on.

We're aware of it and it will fit nicely in the end, once the end comes... very few maps are even beta atm, apart from DM4 perhaps. It will look a lot more coherent than the RMX pack, as great as that was.

Some maps are still up for grabs btw, so if anyone feels the urge, shoot us an email.

Don't forget there is a pretty significant mod in the background to tie it all together, too. Actually, the mod side of it is looking surprisingly good, thanks to Supa and Dr. Shadowborg, and frequent dabbling in #qc, idgames2 and similar places :)

The mod is backwards compatible, meaning it'll change the gameplay in all id1 based maps. This is continuously tested. I believe this'll introduce quite some replay value to existing custom maps. It also fully supports multiplayer, including vote-map, obs, FBX, and offhand hook. You can optionally have a purely multiplayer progs.

OK, enough teasing, gotta keep some surprises :) I'll do a couple more screenies, if you can bear the abominable quality :-E 
That /\ 
perhaps it could be played to the project-aftershock quake musik remix at

or are you making the music for yours? 
i forgot my no-flame :S 
Check your mail :) 
Attic Of The Damned 
Lighting ( 
I suspect the lighting will be very ( in glquake 
Possibly, yeah. I'll work on that. But:

Keep in mind these are WIP shots.  
The mod is backwards compatible, meaning it'll change the gameplay in all id1 based maps. This is continuously tested. I believe this'll introduce quite some replay value to existing custom maps.

Just want to say that having played it, I can attest to this: I very much enjoyed replaying pretty much all the vanilla id maps with the remake mod enabled, which is something I never normally do. 
joequake = best pics client 
E1M2 rebuild and there is a remake of Jago 60% made that will never see the lights of the day...

i saw it, and still have it in my hard drive.

Outstanding map, is a petty Jago will never finish it...

since is a remaking in progress why don�t anyone ask jago for it?

map is outstanding! 
joequake = best pics client

Im sorry but I have to say this is not true. The pest client for pictures is probably FitzQuake or Darkplaces. Other GlQuake engines (Tomaz, JoeQuake, Qrack, QMB etc etc etc do not support gl overbrights and the lighting looks flat :( ) 
Joequake is fine. (really gotta update that page though...) 
i stand corrected.

(I may be forced to check myself though ;) 
OK, last night I gave in and started using wait 0.5 and brighter sunlight/3.

Yes, the maps were too dark. You live, you learn. 
gb learning is the incense of life! 
and that was a main reason for crappy screenies.

/shoots self 
The "grainy" effect you see in most of the screenies is gone now. :) 
I tried to download the Assembly Site and installed it.
Then I made a new user with password but I think I did something wrong. I can make my own site, but my intentions were to get grip of the Quake Remake project.

So eitherwise I can start my own project,or seek the QuakeRemake page, but I get lost by seeking the SNV and/or ticket. 
Download And Install This:

then make a "remake" folder in your quake dir, then you have to get the URL from the Assembla site..... ;) 
I've downloaded the prog, installed it and I end up on this page...

Now tell me how to get the QuakeRemake link? 
You haven't accepted the invitation yet, thus Assembla thinks you can't access RemakeQuake. Please do this:

1. Accept the invitation. You should have gotten an invitation email from Assembla that says, "Click this link to confirm ... etc". You need to do this first.

2. Afterwards, under "My Spaces" you should see this:

RemakeQuake (Trac Tickets)

You do NOT need to create your own space! You can delete the space "madfox".

3. Once you see the RemakeQuake link under "My Spaces", you can click on "Trac tickets" to go to the ticket system and on "RemakeQuake" to go to the space. There will be another link that says, "use this address in your SVN client".

If you still have problems, just email me.

Sorry for the trouble. 
Not At All 
1. Accept the invitation. You should have gotten an invitation email from Assembla that says, "Click this link to confirm ... etc".

but, as I confirm I end up on a page saying I have no permission, 
I have removed and re-invited you; please check if you have a new invitation email, and use that link please.

If that doesn't work, we'll mail Assembla about it.

Sorry i cant help with this just yet - my flights just been cancelled because of a big cloud. <expletives> 
To The Death 
And the problems we're solving aren't small. Its a really good project, and its going to turn out pretty imho. 
You can shoot out the windows ... and they'll respawn :-D

Dm1rq_1.jpg Rocks Me Hard 
I like that design. I do recomend changing the color in tint on a few of the textures to perhaps a green to contrast with the brown. The solid brown stone would be my personal choice for a meddling. 
Watch Out 
#161 posted by gb [] on 2009/02/17 03:40:58
You can shoot out the windows ... and they'll respawn :-D


Those windows are Terminator 2 type units in disguise. 
The lighting could take some more love.
dm1rq_1.jpg looks cool indeed, but somewhat like celshading? Dunno if that is your intend, it feels rather weird for something "Quake". 
DM1RQ, the other side:

One of the ceilings:

Headthump: Yeah, I agree. Some of the textures need a little variation. We did this in a few cases already, but not nearly enough.

Spirit: Celshading? Hm, the effect is probably due to the rather bold use of the wooden beams, as well as the software renderer, minlight and the brightening of the screenies.

There is a lot of that wooden trim in a very cramped place, yeah. But I'm indeed going for a relatively clean look especially in the DM maps.

I learned that I should use more light, and abandoned the idea of using only torches in the wizard maps :-/ They're still harder to light than base maps IMO, because there aren't really that many options.

Initially, I wanted to go for "gloomy" but the result just didn't look very good. Czg03 doesn't look good either, but that's no longer an excuse :-P

So I'm aiming more for "making it look good" now...

It's probably time to look at skyboxes, too. 
Minlight. WIP only?

Torches - flames. Lanterns? Flames inset into walls, on wooden posts, log-fires.

A connundrum it surely is. Good work anyway! Ill uploead something worth looking at soon BTW :) 
You just need to edit the wooden beam texture a little to get rid of the big black lines and it'll look spiffing.

I think the lighting looks just right for DM. 
look sweet, but tree diferent amo boxes at same place?

this is not usual in dm stile of game! 
One of the most important things in DM is the ammo balance... for example if the ammo box for rocket in Dm6 wasn�t in GA, the player would stay forever in RA, but since the ammo will over if he stays at Ra he have to run for ammo all over the map.

So is never good to put different ammo everywhere, better concentrate then in ammo types and not all spread! And powerful weapons shouldn�t have ammo close to powerful items ;)

But the look is very very nice!

hope it helped :) 
I really like the wooden beams, it doesn't really look like cel-shading, don't worry. Looks very crisp and clean.

I will try and contribute something soon I promise :) 
Thanks For The Input Guys 
It really helps. Keep doing it.

Trinca: That's also helpful, since none of us is a big DM player but we really try to make DM fun, with more than half a dozen DM maps and all other maps supporting it, too, and with obs, vote-map, Frikbots and waypoints etc.

I keep thinking, since we have all these DM maps and optionally a multiplayer progs (thanks to #ifdef), we should perhaps release a DM-only public "beta". This might bring us gobs of feedback, which always helps.

The ammo cache in the pic is the only one in DM1, containing the only rockets in the map (no rocket launcher, remember), one of only two shells boxes and one of three nail boxes. It's all in one place to draw combat away from the YA and the courtyard (SSG, armor shards) a bit.

Eventually it'll be good to have people playtest the maps and the mod. Maybe once we have DM2/DM3 and most of the powerups etc. done.

Trinca, I guess if you'd like to playtest some, you could get on the team. Another pair of eyes always helps.

Minlight is used in the DM maps only. None of the SP maps use minlight, only sunlight3.

Ricky: Hehe, yeah, you have the choice between torches, flames, and fire :-D I'm looking forward to see your map.

Starbuck: Looking forward to it :) 
found the page, let's see what happens. 
I've got loads of lights available to me for my map but only really used about 5 different types or something...... maybe 6. 7? 
I really would not spent too much time on the multiplayer maps (didn't even think you would touch them). The SP maps will get you much more gratitude. ;)

About that "cel-shading", I should have been a bit more verbose, sorry. I meant the black borders of the wood parts. While they look very cool (I like abstract) they do not seem "reasonable" to me. They make it look like cel-shaded stuff (black lines defining the geometry) and thus artsy and abstract. It's just a thought. They would look much more Quakey (to me), if they were wood and not "wood with black painted borders". 
I Agree Spirit 
They would look much more Quakey (to me), if they were wood and not "wood with black painted borders".

My basic approach of late is to avoid textures with mixed materials. I have even gone through the basic Quake sets and separated mixed materials out using the ones like you described for trim brushes.

And to note about my previous criticism. The texture choices are very good in respect to material variety, it is only the color scheme that is a bit too monochromatic (monochrome can often be a good thing, aesthetically speaking, especially in environments where you want to convey a feeling of oppression, but Quake being Quake . . .). 
gb i was almost in the team but my time is so short :( this project is big and i love what u guys are doing...

but my time is not enought, i can help u guys in dm maps for this area 100% ;) 
You Played Too Much RemakeQuake When... 
- you keep bumping into grunts
- you miss grunts because you try to predict them
- you get nervous when scrags don't blink
- you run out of shells...
- you're afraid to use shotguns underwater
- you participate in a contest that uses id1, and you either get pissed or drop out
- your maps are built for features that don't exist yet, but that's normal and no one objects
- you're convinced that said features will simply pop when you need them
- you play vanilla Quake, and you just hate what they did to the game

In Other Words 
gb's About To Make You His Bitch 
I�m Back 
And with a slightly better PC. </trumpets>

I didn�t get pissed off with the coagula competition, just didn�t have enough time. Looking at that item list is depressing since the individual tasks aren�t that time consuming.

I�m thinking to buy a laptop as well, to fill up the spaces in those tedious family reunions.

And I�m going to be a father in seven and a half months. 
Health0 should be functioning perfectly now, just with the placeholder textures. 
Yeah, It�s A Nice PC 
The Smiley 
Isn�t sarcastic.

How goes e2m1? 
I have had a week off. Completely. I had some stuff happen in real life which left me feeling pretty down, and I havent had the motivation.

This happened. He was my freind, his funeral was last Wednesday. 
Sorry To Hear It 
What happened? 
Well He Was A Really Nice Guy 
and everything, but basically he hung himself in his house. They found him there after he missed work. Hi g.friend had left him for another guy at christmas. He had tried to do it once before and was sectioned about 6-7 years ago. We all thought he was coping alright. Naahh, fuck man. He was one of my friends. Its really fucked up. 
Thats bad news. Will post a story later when near a keyboard. 
Ricky, Sorry For Your Friend, 
and for you too, because your loss of a friend. 
Is It Only Me Who Finds This Ironic 
First ijed announces that he's going to be a father, and then Ricky tells us how his friend suicided? Some twisted cycle of life this is.

Sorry for your loss. 
The story was:

A guy I knew was a bit of a headcase, but not suicidal.

One night he goes out into the back garden and hangs himself from a tree while there�s a party going on.

Everyone thought he was just pissing about and carried on with the drinking etc.

Next morning he�s dead, but only after choking to death / asphixsiation (that�s spelt wrong).

Because he tied it too long.

His girlfriend (who saw it all happening but didn�t realise either) topped herself with pills a few months later.

And nobody ever knew if he was genuinely trying to kill himself. 
RemakeQuake Thread 
= happy thread. 
My Condolences Ricky 
I remember a friend of mine from my High School baseball team went into the Marines was sent to Japan and came back with a real cutie of a bride. Some months after that he put his mouth around the business end of a shot gun. Little more than a year after that I ran into his widow and his sister who I was actually closer to in high school at a club, and they invited me back to their place, and we talked and drunk wine until the sun came up. Funniest thing, there was absolutely no reminders of him anywhere in the house, and his widow not once mentioned him the entire night. Pretty obvious, as far as she was concerned, he had never existed. 
Everybody has his own way to deal with something like that.

One shouldn't make the mistake to assume that it's their fault, or that they could have stopped them, because mostly it isn't and they couldn't. 
There�s been talk of a big community project, and that�s what we�re trying to do. But it�s big.

What we need now is mappers. The code base has evolved to something incredibly versatile and powerful, the sort of system that mappers love to work with.

It�s still not complete, because the code is following the maps, and since it seems very few want the challenge we run out of new to do.

And the mapping is slow because it�s around 30 maps based on the originals but augmented to 160% minimum.

i�d like this project to be a milestone, and not just in Quake. It will be, eventually, but no one person is a hero.

So we need your help. This isn�t asking for an entire episode, it�s asking for a single map, well done, taking advantage of the features already incorporated.

Mapping since the Coagula contest is in a lull, it seems, but if we have dedicated and enthusiastic people involved then this project could be finished in a year. Instead of five.

The reason to join:

The features you need to remake make your favourite ID1 map but to standard that will blow away anyone who plays it. The code follows the maps.

Send me a mail if you�re interested. With enough critical mass anything can happen. 
Here's where we're at right now.

1. The team:

Ijed, me, Ricky, Lardarse, Trinca? have accepted mapping tasks. Episodes 1 and 3, as well as some maps from episodes 2 and 4 have been taken. Supa is doing most of the coding right now, with input and smaller tweaks by others. Dr. Shadowborg contributed some central items, but is now concentrating on Hellsmash. Madfox is on board modelling. More people are helping in various ways. Anyway, several people are doing more than one thing. Team communication is going strong on the Trac ticket system with over 130 tickets. The Trac is non-public, the source will be opened upon release though.

2. Maps

We're aiming to release a singleplayer demo at this year's Qexpo. About a dozen SP maps are in the works though, done from scratch, plus most of the DM maps. There might be a DM only demo at some later point (RMQ can be compiled multiplayer-only, optionally with bots).

We'll have a booth, and a website is being discussed.

Using the demo, the whole backlog of id1 maps will be replayable in the new mod, too. This just comes with it.

3. Code

RMQ's progs is still under 1 MB unoptimized, which is nothing but a miracle. There aren't many new monsters, but existing monsters are improved in-depth. We have long decided to go deep rather than wide.

If I remember correctly, the only new monsters are the vomitus and dragons (QTest monsters). There are, however, variants of existing baddies, made up of different weapons and so-called "wargear".

"Wargear" for an enforcer, for example, might be a bigger gun, some weapons of the "nasty surprise" sort, and even equipment. The wargear idea might be applied to some other monsters later, such as knights. RMQ monsters are not color coded (because there aren't really new monsters), the variants have mostly vweapons and different sounds. Variant or wargear-equipped monsters do usually NOT have higher hitpoints.

Further tweaks have been made to triggers, several existing entities, properties of monsters (...), AI, several new entities, and so forth.

RMQ includes optional adapted Frikbots. RMQ will include a NPC system (you can have staged fights, and some other NPC applications). There *might* be new game modes.

We support hiprotate etc, the mod is backwards compatible with most (all?) existing id1 maps, and even has external mod support. Up to a point that is. ^^

We aim to create a toolbox weapon system. So far, there is only one new player weapon. The existing weapons have quite a history of tweaks by now. Testers have reported that it's great fun to replay existing maps in Remake Quake. Some have even found it the most fun they've had in an FPS for a long, long time.

Furthermore there are some new gameplay mechanics, which can provide a little more depth, but the core is still "kill monsters, find exit" as always.

Some maps are breaking limits, and we haven't yet really decided what to do about that (maybe engine development will make it easy for us?), but the demo should be playable in any Quake (TM), optionally with glitz.

A couple of developments suggest that we might cross a couple boundaries at some point.

There are CD quality sounds which are pretty advanced by now. The aim here is to stay somewhat faithful, but expand on what's already there. Look forward to the demo.

Many more things have changed or are in the pipe.

See you this summer at Qexpo!

Suck it down,

gb / Team Remake Quake 
That's Quite A List, 
looking forward to the demo expectantly. 
i want to see this finish so bad that i have to help :p

already start mapping!!! 
maybe you could include these monsters in your RQ project : monster_sarge,montster_imp,monster_white_shuffler,monster_spider from kinn's maps bastion&marcher as these monsters are highly underused, it would be awesome 
We've considered including other monsters, but if you knew how much work has gone into just one of the originals then you'd know why why didn't.

Although we have made some efforts to backwards compatability so that most maps will be playable. 
Concessions I meant. 
Since existing monsters have become somewhat more flexible, the need for completely new monsters is reduced. Luckily.

We did allow ourselves dragons and vomiti, which plug some holes in the existing lineup, though.

Not devoting so much space to new monsters has another benefit: We can devote time and energy, and progs space, to... other things :-P 
Shubby penises I hope. 
Don't Forget 
the turtle sign! 
Cthulhu with his sleeping army of jelly dragons. 
Small Correction 
The demo may be (slightly) over the limits, so it'll need an engine to handle that. I believe it should run in the newest Fitzquake/SDL, Darkplaces, FTE, Bengt Jardrup's engines, and so forth.

FTE supports a software mode. I can also provide a hacked Tyrquake (software) as a last ditch alternative.

So I hope no one is left in the cold.

Small Correction 
The demo may be (slightly) over the limits, so it'll need an engine to handle that. I believe it should run in the newest Fitzquake/SDL, Darkplaces, FTE, Bengt Jardrup's engines, and so forth.

FTE supports a software mode. I can also provide a hacked Tyrquake (software) as a last ditch alternative.

So I hope no one is left in the cold.

huh, weird double post problem. 
Final version will be over limits I reckon. There's just too much stuff.

The entities we have now are like mapping heroin.

Luckily we've got fitz085 SDL to save us and usher in a new golden era. 

DM1RQ in FTE, running RemakeQuake with avirox' newest csqc gui thingie.

The menu allows keyboard or mouse interaction, the look is a bit nondescript right now as it's for demonstration only.

Rejoyce, these are some of my last bad screenies ever - I'll soon switch to GLquake (I can practically hear negke and Spirit cheering in the background).

Notice worldtype dependant health items (alpha, of course). 
cool screenies, but in map i would replace that wood texture with the mighty wizmet1_2 texture, seriously 
I Mean 
trims, not a floor texture 
I don't like those health vials. They're far too Hexeny for Quake. 
Keep in mind that RMQ will only be out by 2016 (smaller team = longer development), so all these things might change.

I hope we'll get beaten over the head with feedback when the demo hits the interwebz. 
ok, convinced. 
Change depending on worldtype, but all models are placeholder. 
Summer Demo 
This is the link:

It's only one map, but it is the entire current mod, so will work for what we've done so far. Since the monsters we're using the most are from the beggining of each episode (so far) the higher tier creatures are lacking quite a bit.

Even so it definately makes playing id1 maps alot more fun. Although very different - and bear in mind this is a pre-alpha.

Next up in a few months time will be a DM orientated demo. 
We're not really supporting this since it's just a pre-alpha demo, but if anyone wants the fgd / def files then let me know. 
Note: -sndspeed 44100 on the console and some large amount of RAM is advised.

Do also play some id1 maps under RMQ. It's fun. 
I Don't Get It. 
The sounds have been replaced with less appropriate, less professional and less scary ones. The scrags in particular sound like jet planes rather than organisms.

And what's Quake without an axe?

I appreciate this is pre-alpha, but to be honest the most notable changes seem to me to be a step back from the original Quake rather than forwards.

As far as positives go, the new map's details are a step in the right direction, but the layout is confusing, the flow is non-existent and the combat is unexciting.

Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing how this progresses. 
Have To Ask 
Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing how this progresses.


For the sounds you need -sndspeed 44100 on the commandline.

The layout is the same as the original for the most part. 
culture shock effect 
I did the sound thing as instructed. It all just sounds a bit synthy. Do the dogs fire Star Wars lasers when they bark?

I appreciate that much of the level's shape is in tact, but the way one has to navigate it has been changed in small, seemingly pointless ways.

I guess I've always been intrigued by this project, but I will always have the mantra "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rolling around in the back of my mind.

I look forward to seeing how it progresses because you can't judge something properly in its pre-alpha stages. :) 
The bifurication changed slightly to make it less confusing, a few other areas underwent similar changes.

There are new areas and routes, but it's all pretty simple to navigate - to me. Where did you get lost? 
Or Better 
Where would you recommend route changes. 
what engine should i be using? i've never heard of -sndspeed before.

i've played the map in fq already, but i want to use the right engine, if there is a specific one to use, before i make any comments. 
I Play 
In fitz085. 
I also use fitz085_sdl, FTE and Tyr, and some of us use Darkplaces.

Basically find out how to set your sound quality to 44100 Hz. The engine must support more edicts I guess. e3m1rq also uses alpha.

To play normal Quake in this mod, you can use any old engine. 
I have made a test on e3m1rq. My quick and spontaneous thoughts:

improved brushwork and texturing quality
some nice ambushes
heart beat and red vision when with low health
monster ai was ok

replacement sounds - I think they don't fit in quake
changes to layout are mostly confusing. Also I couldn't recognize the map in many places at first
the original map is more open than this one. The map feels cramped unnecessary
not enough health on easy
death trap at the end?? (hole with slime)
too many blinking lights and I feel the lightning overall could be better

monster count doesn't show up in bengtquake-gl
some monsters didn't attack
restart from save crashed the game 
I have tested on a standard quake map. The monsters inflict much more damage and this causes the gameplay to get slower. You will need to balance it with more armour or better weapons. This will cause te play to be a total massacre which can be fun.
I like how the SNG behaviour is changed (spread, underwater functioning).
Monster teleport splash looks strange. But maybe I just have to get familiar with it.
I still don't like the sounds (Zombie hurt and HK shooting are totally lame for example) 
heart beat and red vision when with low health
I like how the SNG behaviour is changed (spread, underwater functioning).


monster count doesn't show up in bengtquake-gl
some monsters didn't attack

These are actually intentional. :) 
Show the monster count, plz. That's not an improvement. :) 
Thanks For Comments 
Seems like a fair bit of nostalgic memory about the original map though, try comparing the two in the same mod, and then playing the old version in id1 progs.

For example the level is much more open than the original - the crampt areas tend to be where it gets close to the original in size.

The monsters that don't attack are NPC's - and they tend to get slaughtered by the other monsters pretty quickly.

The weapons are actually much more powerful, on average. The massacre idea, but also toolbox. No longer will you be able to complete a level with only SG + patience.

Hole with slime - you mean the one in the reactor room? The idea was that you've already avoided it once, but then the lights go out.

Probably should have made it more noticable first time round - the player sees the floor break or something.

Also, the red vision / heartbeat gives a small damage increase - you're in rage mode. 
We were talking this over and wanted to float the idea. Going to a Doom1 percentage might be better. 
A percentage might work. I just like knowing how far I am into a level. It allows me to conserve ammo and such and play with some intelligence. 
The two layout/route changes that annoyed me the most were the following:
Having to open these doors with a button seemingly added nothing. Sure, it may equal more virtual 'real estate', but it doesn't actually add anything to the game play of the level. If anything I would say it detracts because it interrupts the flow.
Is this tiny lift really the only way to progress due to that locked door? Once again, all this change did was make me have to walk further -- through areas that I'd already explored no-less!

To sum up the above two examples, if you're going to add something to Quake make sure it actually contributes something exciting.

RE: The slime pit. If you're going to make an inescapable death trap it should be insta-death. The reason I didn't mention it earlier is because I couldn't comprehend an experienced Quake mapper seriously adding a slow, inescapable deathpit to a level. It's not fun.

I assume the NPCs you're talking about are those axe-men that keep running around randomly killing monsters before I get a chance. What's the thinking behind this? Visually and audibly they're pretty indistinguishable from the enemy lineup, so I was repeatedly baffled by this as I played.

I too am a fan of the low health thing. I also like the hand underneath the shotgun, although it makes it feel as if it's firing off center, which threw me at first.

Quick Bug Report:
I got stuck in the shootable switch above when it reactivated, and had to noclip out. Maybe clip the whole thing off. 
I have played some more. I really like all the changes to the weapons. Many interesting twists that enrich the fights. As I said earlier monster behaviour is also ok. The gameplay seems to be pushed in good direction. More bloody, fast and quakey.
Isn't the RL too powerfull after the changes? It boosts me all over start.bsp now.

e3m1rq - the map seems to be more closed than the original because at start it is blocked in more places. Old speedrunning tricks/routes not possible. Yeah, nostalgia sits inside of me. 
I like the way one exploding grenade will knock another way. This should make 'nade spam quite a laugh.

I didn't much like losing my shotty for good after it backfired though. Perhaps it could reappear in the next map? :\ 
I think most of the problems are just related to the fact that we pretty much changed the game, so after getting familiar with the old ways for 13 years, this is hard to accept. Instinctive anti reaction. I don't mean this in an insulting way. I believe there really is such a gut reaction.

Yes, when you get under a certain health amount (skill dependant, like most things in the game) you practically go berserk. This is called Rage. The screen goes red and you do a lot more damage, in a last ditch sort of way. At the same time, your health starts regenerating until you reach 25, at which point the rage will subside. 25 HP aren't much in RMQ though.

This can be abused - intentionally entering Rage is like a mini-quad. But it's also very dangerous, any grunt can quickly end your rampage. I imagine speed runners can probably use Rage to zoom through a map like a hot knife through butter.

Kudos to Supa for this. Your statue is on the way.

The other thing is underwater combat - you want to use the nailgun, pretty much. You can theoretically also use the grapple to get close to your victim, then chainsaw him to death.

In many ways, RMQ's nailgun is what the shotty was to vanilla Quake. The axe, BTW, is going to be reintroduced.

Some monsters do more damage, and are Z-aware. However, you yourself also do more damage. Much more damage, especially with the shotguns. This brings a certain DOOMiness to the game.

Grunts will now strafe (they are not really good at it, though). They are the *only* monsters who strafe. Notice that one SG shot will end their cheap tactics. I think that's balanced enough.

About monster count, well, RMQ isn't the only game to not have it. Doom 3 doesn't show it, either. It was a team vote to do away with it.

I also think that many simply have much too fond memories of original Quake. It often seems "the originals" are viewed through some sort of nostalgic glasses. Original e3m1 is really cramped (and ugly to boot).

Due to the gargantuan size of the project, and the small team size, there are of course many things that aren't perfect yet, too.

Please remember that we don't have access to a professional sound studio and tons of expensive sample libraries. The sound is really pretty good, though. Some cases can always be improved, of course. We are aware of that.

The dogs make Rottweiler sounds, as Rottweilers should. 
About the shotgun getting permanently blown up, yes, it might be possible to place the shotgun as a normal weapon pickup, or simply code it to reappear at the start of the next map.

Let's wait and see. 
Well, the first one is just to set up an ambush from the room that must be entered first. That room can be entered in two different ways depending on a secret which modifies the route.

Tbh it's a pretty minor detour there, which fills back up with enemies as well.

That little lift is just a shortcut to help you back up if you've fallen down. After that point you need go up the bigger lift and find the mystery fuse to open the exit corridor (circular window ceiling).

Its possible that my opening up of shortcuts caused some confusion - as Ankh says it may seem more shut in because the original is more open at the start. But also more confusing to new players, believe me.

The NPC's aren't the axe grunts (who do attack) - they're the QuakeGuy's who tend to have very short lifespans.

If the axegrunts are killing them then everything is good - if they're killing other monsters then that's infighting.

The slime pit not being instakill and that shootable button clip issue are bugs, yeah. 
Played It 
was really fun, but i think the grenades should sound like the normal quake grenades

..which kinda sound like bouncing aerosol cans, the new sound is like glass bottles ;)

that's my only complaint, h and maybe the npc's should put up SOME kinda fight, they are quakeguys aren't they? 
> That little lift is just a shortcut to help you back up if you've fallen down.

That's in vanilla e3m1, too.

Grenade bounce sound, yeah, relatively hard to find a good one though, surprisingly. I remember spending quite some time trying to find something better. 
Alternative Download

It's a zip instead of Rar and weighs in ~35MB more - but should be simpler for those on non-windows OS's. 
I just wanted them to die quickly - the idea is for them to get slaughtered just before the player arrives. That's a map thing - the misc_npc entity is extremely open ended.

They can have a load of different attacks, whatever model you like, be good evil or nuetral. move in a variety of ways (land, air, liquid) and so on.

Later on they'll get access to more stuff in the attack library.

And all that is map side set. Even with preset options for the lazy. 
Alt-alt. Download Provided By Baker And QuakeOne: 
Nicer than 4shared - for sure. 
I Only Post Because You Guys Are So Criticism-resistant 
If you call it RemakeQuake then of course you will be compared to Quake. And if you are not "better" than the criticism is justified.

To me this sucks and that has not much to do with an "anti" attitude. Things don't fit together (sounds (terrible, sorry. The frequency does not matter.), Q2 rips, health vials). It feels totally random. There are many quirks but most have been defended as intended already. Bah.
Maybe call it DoomQuake instead or something?

I too found the map very confusing. Lighting is bad, too dark/black (not a lack of minlight, no). Fell into the slime too, bad.

PS: Quaketastic is there for your hosting needs... 
At first I was eager to find out how the stronger shotgun would work. I liked it, it feels powerful (even with the huge spread, off-center aim and sound). Going through a bunch of grunts is fun.

But then I realised that it dumbs down the game a lot. If do you not kill with your first shot, you have to decide a lot more what to hit and when. Now you just "point and kill" which might contradict with your overall design, I am not sure. 
i find it odd that so much of the early criticism is on the map itself when the map is really just the table that they're laying all the food down on.

i think the map looks great except for absolutely terrible lighting (did you not know some areas are completely full dark?).

i'm not sure, but it seemed to me like the monsters have some kind of random roaming, which (if it's there, and not me hallucinating) is pretty cool. (also, nice job setting up walk paths. i find people tend to ignore that a lot these days but i like that it feels like the world is more than just there for you to blow up).
the npcs mostly just annoyed me. a lot of times i just killed them because i didn't care to differentiate between npc and monsters or they just got in my line of fire.

on to the mod itself.

sounds are a mixed bag. weapon sounds i don't mind much, they are ok and do the job. monster sounds though, especially the ones where you got some guy to yell... very cringe-worthy. i think i actually did while playing.

also, shotgun exploding underwater (and weapon misfiring) is, not only nonsensical, it's pointless. underwater combat in quake is already extremely limited, and now you are artificially hobbling it even more which pretty much means it will be non-existent.
same goes for the lightning knockback while firing. why? it's not like the lightning gun was amazing or anything. it's incredible damage rate was tempered by it's incredibly fast consumption of cells. in fact, i've found players are conditioned against using the LG except as a last resort or to use on shamblers. (which is a shame because it has the potential to be an incredible weapon for gameplay due to it's unique limitations).

i didn't get the SNG in the map, so i didn't get to see whether nerfing it's accuracy actually accomplishes anything or not. i hope to get a chance to play through some old iD maps tomorrow (and maybe some custom ones that don't require mods) to see. i'm thinking maybe ceremonial circles would give some more interesting combat. any other suggestions?

monster dodging: this i actually really really liked! finally a monster that dodges, but doesn't result in an automatic miss! i positively despised Unreal's AI because it had psychic-dodge. if the AI decided to dodge your ASMD (hit-scan), you were guaranteed to miss because the monster would dodge as soon as your crosshair moved over it (maybe even before, i think the check was not just the crosshair, but a radius around it.... or it felt that way anyway, which is essentially the same when it comes down to it).
it's handled here well. most of the time, i hit what i aimed for but every so often i'd get a dodge, but i *never* felt cheated out of a kill. i suspect you are using a system similar to unreal's dodge. i guess the reason i don't mind it is because it's just not a very fast dodge. i'll miss if i'm slow or off center, not just because it dodged.

on overall weapon poweruppage, i don't really get what's going on here.
it means they die faster and so do you. but it also means you are reducing engagement time with monsters.
this means they are depending on their AI more because they have less time to shoot at you. something to keep in mind.

voreballs are wierd now. i'm not sure if i like it or not as the old voreball tracking code itself was tricksy in a way. (a good way).
while iD's choice to only update the tracking every 0.3 seconds was probably done to save on calculations per frame, it had the added side effect that ducking behind a wall at the last minute was futile.
the new voreballs seem to behave like drunk missiles and are erratic and confusing. (this may just be something to get used to).

that's it for now. i don't know how to make FQ run at higher audio frequencies so i just leave it at the 11khz.

if you want a rundown, i'd say i've neutral, leaning towards positive. there's some quality stuff in here. there's just also a lot of chaff. 
Re: Willem And Monster Count 
A percentage might work. I just like knowing how far I am into a level. It allows me to conserve ammo and such and play with some intelligence.

i actually find this disturbing. do many players do this? 
Well, there's really no other way of knowing how close you are to the end. When the monster count is running low, I know I'm getting near the end and I can stop hording cells and rockets and open up a little.

It gives my virtual world some boundaries and I, personally, enjoy that. I don't know how other players feel though. 
yes I do. 
oh well I was suppose to be in the team, but my time at work and at home don�t let me do nothing... and honestly I�m not liking many stuff in the mod :\ maybe is just be but in the demo I totally lost the feeling that I�m playing Quake... and this in the major reason why I play Quake after 12 years...

To play other game there are a lot of new ones with much better graphics, I don�t like the healthy the shields some of the sounds :| I think the feeling of Quake was lost :\

I�m a little sad to say this because there are some people in this project that I personally like a lot, and that I should be contribution not destroying but that�s the way I�m feeling


I think that the project is not going in the right direction... I still think that can be tweaked to the right one... let�s see what happened... some items don�t fit at all... the remake should take the Quoth direction that was a great mod! the bad thing about Quoth is that most of mappers tend to make Quoth to hard...

Mostly only necros and Kell Quoth maps are fun as well with lots of good weapons to blast the evil Quoth beasts.

In short words �Quoth fits much more with a Quake Remake then this mod�� sorry :( 
Will Defend Some Stuff Anyway 
Criticism Resistance:
Only when I'm not sure what's being complained about. For example, you should never see a health vial and a Q2 object near each other.

Not fitting together:
The Q2 stuff that's in there is because we don't have proper models yet - they need to become more Quake as opposed to Strogg.

Map lighting:

Quaketastic has a 50MB limit, but the upload was ~65.

I think I get what you mean here, but one thing you seem to miss is the huge spread actually serves a purpose, forcing the player to get closer to the enemy in order to kill it. So you spend less time doing damage to the enemy, but more time manouvering - least that's the intention.

Yeah, there is. There's a few other systems in there as well, like grouping and randomised placement on map load.

The way I used them was to just kill them - they're mostly props that drop a backpack when shot in this map.

Shotgun Explosion:

Lightning Knockback:
Like the overpowered RL this is WIP. The weapons now follow a toolbox format - so a SG in some instances will be better than another weapon - or much worse. The Knockback allow lightning jumping, but needs to be fine tuned. It was introduced so that the holdoff from using the weapon would be less, but we need to rethink this maybe since it's not supposed to be a movement item.

This has much reduced accuracy but also monster piercing - making it a mid-range horde killer weapon.

The Vore is not yet remade, but now uses our homing code. This makes it less predictable but also easier to avoid, like the aforementioned right angle turning of the id1 version. What's missing is the raft of other Vore abilities - like being able to summon multiple voreballs if the player dodges out of sight and then hurl the lot.

Trinca, be specific - say what you don't like.

This is a very early ALPHA version. We want to hear gripes. 
We will be thick headed about some because func_ is our toughest audiance.

And some will hate some changes no matter what. 
"Quaketastic has a 50MB limit, but the upload was ~65."

It does? OK, I'll make a note to look into that. I certainly didn't set that up on purpose... 

I just wanted to say that I think you're handling a pretty sour wall of negative criticism with class and style. This easily could have devolved into a flame war so, well done. :) 
I Was Expecting Worse 
Also, Necros 
I haven't actually played Cermonial Circles under this mod but it should show off the revised Ogre combat fairly well - would be interested to hear your opinions on that.

Mostly I was playing any releases that came out whilst the mod has been under construction and were id1 - so speed and turtlemaps, and a few other larger releases. 
yeah, a real tricky one, how to be advocative and honest, without causing offence. I personally am not so keen on the new sounds for the player and the grunts, I dont know, it just sounds a bit amateurish (which it is obviously) but I think the original sounds are what a lot of people would expect (and love) from such a mod. We want it to still feel like Quake....
Quoth achieves this by adding to the Quake bestiary, and improving bugs and a few gameplay tweaks, but ultimately it feels like another improved chapter of good old Quake!
RemakeQuake is a remake of all of the levels of Quake, with improved level design, and modified gameplay, but if we deviate too far from the feel of Quake we will loose our audience.
My angle is to re-make a level so that it has a different style of design, and is extended from the beginning or end of the original, or both. Rotating entities, ladders, environmental effects, new Quake style monsters, custom environmental sounds are all attractive to me and along with the use of extended limit engines to play the map in I can make a remake which is very rich in detail and gameplay, and offers a lot more immersion and ultimately more gameplay than the original.
It should still feel like good old Quake!

my 10c

Ijed and Gb as well as a few other talented contributors have been working on this for a long time now (I had a very strong flurry of work on my map back in february, and have probably only equalled the amount of work I did back then, since then, but hey - im still going), it would be a terrible shame to see it fall to pieces (which I dont believe for even a second that it will)
I think Ijed DID get his coffee this morning because he hasnt posted a message on the SVN threads, but he has updated the content with changes or additions numerous times, just today!
So I would say that comments are noted and often acted upon, this WILL work! 
I Was Going To Say 
before I rambled too much that I DO like the new sounds for the feind! Last I heard it was pretty scary....... 
I'm not thin skinned enough to be offended, but saying 'I don't like it' is about as constructive as 'the sky is blue'.

Without construction nothing will change with regard to what's not liked. 
I Mean 
Feature X is bad because of A B and C is much more useful. 
you will never fail if you you do nothing

At least the effort has been performed, and the outcome is far away to be ridiculous. While things are not perfect in all areas, it was a good piece of fun in anyway.

It deserves to be said: just keep it up and improve it ! 
Thanks necros etc. for constructive criticism.

I find it not so helpful when a lot of people just say "I don't like X, Y and Z" or "it doesn't feel like Quake". After choosing to, well, not help the project. It's very easy.

Not liking X,Y and Z is a question of taste. Would you rather have the old sounds back? Just because they're the old sounds? You don't like the grunt sounds, well, please create better ones. You'll soon notice that it is hard and time intensive, unlike saying "bah, I don't like it".

I could go on, but my opinion on the func_ bunch is probably very well known. Wrong place to ask if you're doing something unconventional. I'm not alone with this opinion.

Quoth is basically Scourge of Armagon with new monsters. Very cool new monsters. But it doesn't change gameplay or weapons. Incidentally, this results in you facing these hyper-enforcers with the same crummy old weapons. I think Quoth went only half the way, sorry.

Quoth made it a point to never go against the player's expectations (citing Preach here). The player, pretty much, being defined as "the peer group", ie func_.

You can't realistically expect the same from a mod that openly says it wants to remake Quake.

It is unlikely that RMQ will greatly change its direction or philosophy.

Let's see what other parts of the Quake community think. 
Um. Gb. 
You don't like the grunt sounds, well, please create better ones.

I don't think anybody's saying they could do better, just that there's no point in remaking the sounds if they're not going to improve upon the originals.

Furthermore, I happen to believe that 'Deep Impact' is a rubbish movie, but I certainly couldn't make better. Constructive criticism is a wonderful thing, but even people without technical know-how or extensive skills in the expression of thought can have a valid opinion, and if you choose to blinkardly ignore it the only person you're hurting is yourself.

Nobody here has to play RemakeQuake when it's finished, and the more their opinions are ignored, I imagine the less likely they are to do so.

I'd like to second the praise of ijed's decorous handling of feedback so far, and feel that it can only help the mod, so bravo ijed. 
I gave czg03 a go in RemakeQuake a while ago, and it swept the floor with me on skill 2. Ogres and DK's definitely aren't what they used to be :)

Nastrond is also worth a try, as is dm3rmx, with the updated base monsters line-up and the limited supply of shells at the map start (in RQ you start with 10). 
To Be Fair 
I'm ignoring what I can't understand or put into a clear framework. Other stuff mentioned is stuff we were either testing, is on the to do list or will be looking at again.

Like lighting maps properly :P

Bear in mind that these are the sounds for basically the entire game. And it's not just a case of "don't replace them then" because lots of stuff didn't exist before.

Like multiple sight and death sounds, taunts and so on. If we didn't create those then we'd be working on a much less ambitious project.

here are some demos of me playing rmq on stock id maps and hdn. I have started with e2m1-m4, e1m5 and hdn.
You can see how I learned to play the mod.
I like the combat all in all.
There are some problems with the power of HK trail. It was the most often cause of my deaths. Also the vores see me from too far away which causes me to hide all the time. 
Excellent, Thanks 
The sounds are obviously, measurably even, an improvement over the old ones. In addition like ijed says, we introduced new mechanics that needed new sounds, and only doing those new sounds would have been inconsequent and led to an audible difference between old and new sounds. "All new" was the only right decision. But the main reason for the new sounds is that 11kHz really is a pretty bad sound quality, and improving the game would naturally also mean improving the sound quality. I realize this is a matter of philosophy or preference, of course.

And this

I'd like to second the praise of ijed's decorous handling of feedback so far, and feel that it can only help the mod, so bravo ijed.

is really an old and worn tactic. Julius Caesar knew it already. It's pretty low. 
Haven't Played This Much Yet... 
my hasty opinions:

- the low health mechanic is cool

- hard to tell friend from foe in the first room of the level

- lack of lighting in places makes it hard to navigate sometimes

- if you can lose your shotgun, it should be possible to regain it. (idea: some grunts drop shotguns) 
Oh I Forgot 
We're all conservative elitist pricks who just 'don't get it', right? I must admit I'm with Text_Fish here. While it's indeed consequent to replace all sounds, it doesn't seem utterly necessary. Whether they are "definitely" an improvement is a matter taste. If they were high-quality versions of the original sounds, nobody would complain, but they are different, in some cases even very much so (naturally, as it's very hard to find proper and free replacements), and often sound weaker (or less frightening if you want) than the originals, e.g. the Vore sounds. Also, I don't know if better quality justifies the file sizes of several MB per sound - even modern games don't use uncompressed audio formats?

Having said that, I think I could live with a complete sound replacement, although my suggestion would be to put them (the sounds that are not immediately needed for the new entities) into a seperate PAK file, so people who wish to play with the originals can simply rename it. Seems like an easy way to please both parties.
My main gripes: Hellknight magic sounds like a laser rifle (the sword swing could use a more powerful/complete whoosh sound); the dog death sound doesn't really sound like a dying dog to me, plus it's too long (maybe cut off the second half); zombie pain sound - female zombies?. Weapon sounds are ok, except for the grenade bounce and the explosion (Quake has a very rich and powerful one, this one sounds rather 'flat'). The nailgun could be a bit 'thinner', higher pitch. No chainsaw idle?
The item pickup sounds are ridiculous - is this Quake or Wold3d?! I would prefer something like 'box pickup->syringe pfff->player ahh', for instance.

I think it's theoretically a good idea to have health vials instead of medkits in non-base maps, though then again it doesn't correspond to the ammo packs (weren't all supplies teleported into the maps by the marines or something?). Also, the models look a bit 'low res', being so clean and all.
The rain drop mdl still looks odd to me. It doesn't seem to have a vertical drop shape, but rather shift to the side. Reskinned (and optimized) nail.mdl might be better - like the single drop (nice effect).

The new weapon balance seems ok at first glance (haven't played many levels). A bit more like Doom, makes one appreaciate the Shotguns more. I don't mind the spread, probably something one gets used to quickly. I don't see why they would explode underwater, though, while the other weapons work. LG decoil, hmm. Would make more sense for the RL really, but I understand your consideration for ballance.

The new Vore missle isn't bad. Might make it easier in rooms with no cover. Of course, you could also have the old behavior appear every now and then, at least on higher skills.
The lava burn is too strong now, in my view - it turns even shallow lava pits into death traps.
Nice teleporter effect.

E3M1RQ: Good work visually. As has been said, the lighting needs tweaking. You've probably tested it on a bright (laptop?) monitor setup, but the dark areas are really dark on other people's. I had to crank up Quake's brightness to 75% in order to be able to find my way (in this sense, it's probably due to the darkness that some people found the progression confusing). And the pitch black areas weren't good, e.g. the slime basement of the map - remember, Quake always renders liquids fullbright, so it looks odd if there're black walls around. Don't use minlight though! A few lower (150-200) sourced lights might enhance the area greatly. And increase the overall light level in most of the rest. It's kind of hard to tell what to do in the reactor room if one can hardly see a thing, for example. In some areas, the rainy sky should give a little more light to the walls, too.
I thought the Ogres didn't really fit there (yes, they're used in many custom base maps, but for some reason they seemed out of place here). Better create a grenade-shooting Enforcer monster, possibly also with a melee attack like some sort of electroshock rod or a handheld buzz saw and bloodsplattered skin.

Finally, I hope you find a way to optimize the maps to work with standard engines 
Heh, you can use the lighting gun to climb and fly now. 
Sounds great :D 
Will the model of the QuakeGuy's hands be changed? If they are going to show up using the shotgun I think they should look better. 
Could Be 
Which weapon? All? 
Were kind of late to the party - you'll notice there's alot more if you find the DBS.

I wanted Quake minions who weren't necessarily demons, and knights would have been weird.

You'll notice that Enforcers will occassionally lob a grenade (or hunter killer if their flag is set) so a 'more grenades' flag could be the solution.

friend / foe in the first room is kind of a grey issue, since they'll generally get killed anyway and sometimes they'll attack you (bug).

It not quite a scripted sequence, but it's pretty close. I wanted to give the impression of a living place - one in the process of being overrun, or that has just been overrun seconds after the player arrives.

The NPC is flexible enough to have them properly fighting the monsters and we'll be using that in later maps for all sorts of stuff. Maybe an NPC rescuing a helpless player or some such.

Citizen Able Q2 maps will be a great inspiration there.

Also HL2's various mission types - the NPC unlocks the door.

And final thing about the sounds - alot of them are higher quality of the originals, courtesy of Mindgrid. 
Don't Get Me Wrong... 
I think this is a good mod -- more on par with Nehahra than with Quoth (minus the feature-length movie, of course) -- it's just the name that bothers me. I guess what I was half expecting was something more like a Quake HD with higher poly models and 32-bit textures with uber-detailed levels. This, on the other hand, is something different. Gameplay-wise, there are some neat things going on. Sound-wise, there are some no-so-neat things going on. The rest-wise, well, we will wait and see...but I do look forward to it.

Keep up the good work! 
There's plenty of projects that pretty the game up though. Textures packs and a few modeling ones.

Being compared to Nehahra is a great compliment. 
Seems like you had fun with the mod, reliving the levels.

Haven't watched them all yet, but they're pretty morale boosting. 
Give Me A Shout If You Fancy 
Remaking a map :) 
Some Thoughts 
We've been playing this game for 13 years, so we know every subtlety of gameplay and design. Every little thing you change will be noticed and mercilessly scrutinized. And there are certain expectations that we have about how Quake looks and feels. Obviously any changes to that will be challenged. The RMQ team has been hyping their mod for a while here on func, in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Someone on the team says, "oh this map played really cool in RMQ," or about some mapping feature, "yeah we'll have that in RMQ." So, subtle expectations have been created, and now we finally see it, and it is both less and more than we imagined...

So about those sounds. Yeah, they're 44.1khz. Great. I don't care, if they are bad and out of place, which a lot of them are. Let's look at the grunt sounds. You see, I have a certain expectation of what a grunt is. I imagine them to be half-human genetic experiments or something, a creature far more capable of killing than speech. The originals did not utter a single intelligible word. Did you forget? He is called a GRUNT, not "some guy yelling random shit at me." It is seriously jarring to hear them actually talking and I don't like it. Make a new monster, like an evil marine or something, if you want chatter and taunts, please.

Here's another specific criticism: I don't like it when identical-looking enemies fire different weapons. It breaks my expectations. I do see that the grunts have different guns modeled, but that's not enough to tell them apart in a dark room or the heat of battle. Obviously there's a specific way to engage a shotgun grunt vs a grenade grunt, and if you do it wrong you die. In Quoth, you can learn the differences between the green guys, red guys, orange guys, blue guys, etc, and plan accordingly. For what it's worth, this lack of grunt differentiation annoyed me in Nehahra as well.

Well that's a lotta rambling. I'll say more about specific things when it's not 3:30 am... 
The nailgrunts are supposed to be carrying visually different guns. I'm not a fan of 'new skin = rockets' type monsters, so the idea is for each to be different in outline for just the reasons you mention.

The HyperEnforcer for example will have a much bulkier weapon, connected to his backpack by a cable - just a case of getting the modeling and animation done.

Less grunt chatter, noted. 
My opinion is that Quake moves too fast for outlines to mean much. Large differences like a knight compared to an ogre work, but different guns - no. Colors may seem cartoony but they are the quickest thing to pick up on in the middle of a fire fight. 
Depends On The Lighting. 
And the nailgrunts already have a slightly different armour colour.

The idea is for them to carry nailguns as opposed to a stick. Maybe it'll be worth changing the shotgun to a proper shotgun as well. It's a handful of polys more but visually completely different.

Really, the Enforcer and grunt weapons are like giant cigars with a few lights and stuff.

For the Enforcer he'll have a modified powerpack in place of a backpack and a big cable connecting it to his gun - so it should be visually very different.

Skins will be a matter of course. 
you could make very subtle scale differences between the different types of grunt/enforcer. I.E. taller/fatter/whatever. On paper it may not be a huge difference but I'd say it's the sort of thing people would pick up on and react to subconsciously.

I too find the colour coordinated variations in other mods somewhat cheesy but ultimately, bad game play is a problem ten times bigger.

Not to flog a dead horse, but I hope the fact that pretty much everybody has uniformly complained about the sounds is enough to warrant a major change in direction there. 
QuakeGuy Hands 
Yes, all the weapons, I think Q2 quality hands would be enough. 
There's no way that we'll be binning months of work, but its a big contrast how those here and those on other forums have reacted.

The only mention of bad sounds elsewhere has been the rain being too loud. But yeah, consideration. 
episode 3 demos recorded in joequake - if anyone is interested. It is still fun to play this.

e2m3 - is someone working on it? Not that I promise anything :) 
I Was A Bit Uncomfortable In A Good Way ... 
I didn't know what to expect when I was playing the demo but I liked what I felt.

I completely didn't understand the rules, the enemies and had no sense of level progression because the monster counter wouldn't show me the number of monsters.

I felt like I was playing a version of Quake 2 that didn't suck -- and I mean that in the most complimentary kind of way possible.

It was like playing a drastically different Quake mod where I had no idea what the rules were, no idea what the goals were and no sense of comfort.

The surroundings were familiarish but I never developed any kind of comfort.

Newblars think "gee wiz I want high res graphics" simply because they don't know any better, but veterans want high-res gameplay.

If mystery and lack of comfort are the key to suspense, I can easily claim to have never felt safe as I played this. Way too many unexpected things happened for me to have that kind of comfort.

Quake 2's stupid goals and objectives really impeded my joy of the game and I don't claim to have progressed far in Quake 2 -- I did try it again recently due to gb's long-time and aguirRe's seemingly recent Q2 passion.

Remake Quake felt like some unfamiliar game set in a somewhat familiar environment -- so very unfamiliar despite the familiar surroundings and enemies.

I guess I never expected a Quake mod to be so unexpected. I haven't played a Quake mod that successfully removed my sense of security.

In recent history, the only other map that really freaked me out was the ijed Spacehulk 256 map where fiends kept being behind me from nowhere and I continually died.

Yes, this isn't your traditional Quake experience, but maybe it shouldn't be. With a few hundred awesome single player maps in stock, maybe the "traditional" Quake experience has played itself out as much as it needs to be. 
Well Said, Baker 
Expectations create a comfort zone - if the goal is to make the player uncomfortable, then that's not necessarily a bad thing.

About the rain - I certainly like the idea, it makes the map much more atmospheric. It would be nice if the sound got louder when you approach a window or went outside - maybe it did, but the difference was quite subtle and it was still pretty loud inside. Of course, I realize there are limits to what quake's attenuation will allow. 
You know how it is. Non-developer communities tend to appreciate anything without critical consideration. At least people here care enough to comment in one way or another (even if it sometimes sounds harsher than possibly intended).

Base ogre: I think LTH made a base skin for ogres (Trinca used it in one of his base maps). It would still feel a little odd, but also make things a lot easier. Just insert the second skin and add "skin" "1" to the ogres in the base maps. 
I Rly Like That Idea, Negke! 
I was never a fan of ogres in base maps pureply ecause they looked out of place, so giving them a base skin would probablt make me use them more... 
chif my best map ever and u dont remeber the name negke? :(

trincasp3 tree map pack 
chif my best map ever and u dont remeber the name negke? :(

trincasp3 tree map pack 
I confused it with the Hellknight base skin. But I'm fairly sure I've seen an ogre skin, too. Maybe in Forwards Compatible? 
you have a trincasp3 map? zomgggg 
eheh long long time ago :p 
that wasnt your best map, your last one was :) 
it seems i missed it somehow 
"Newblars think "gee wiz I want high res graphics" simply because they don't know any better, but veterans want high-res gameplay. "

Some of us want both. 
We've only got time to do one of the two.

Like I was saying before, reskins I don't hate, but it's not far off.

Most likely you won't have seen an enforcer's hunter killer - they're intentionally rare because they function like an explosive manhack.

Yes, chunks of player go everywhere.

Basically some Enforcers throw HK's instead of grenades. Making a grenade enforcer wouldn't be difficult. But for him to be right he'd need a backup for close range, which for me would be a melee. Chainsaw would just make him a reskinned ogre. For some reason I'm thinking for him to kick the player.

Gah. Brainstorm + hangover = bad idea.

I reckon you're thinking of OUM for the Hellknight base skin. Lightsabres.

And the other forums I was talking about are inside3d and QuakeOne. I'd say I3D is more of a developer community than this one (no offense) because they work in the guts of the game. What mappers do is augment what already exists.

Reckon that's where some of the ingrained resistance comes from.

What is the general opinion of the monster counter?

Granted, it's not Q1. 
< Lack Of 

I got then all in here!!!

even the crapiest map ever sm109_trinca 
Sounds / Graphics

1. Grunt sounds

The Remake Quake Pre-Alpha I'd say that some of the alternate grunt and enforcer sounds detract from the environment.

The original Quake itself managed to get the sounds right like no other game, past or present.

2. Willem "some of us want both"

I think everyone wants both. I just meant that pretty screenshots are a dime a dozen and none of them are an assurance that the game play is any good. 
"I think everyone wants both. I just meant that pretty screenshots are a dime a dozen and none of them are an assurance that the game play is any good."

Yeah ... good point, I guess. I dunno, every time someone says this they present it as if it's a new data point or some new perspective that hasn't been considered before.

No offense, Baker, but ... duh? 
Monster Counter 
If you can remove it entirely, then that would be ok. But it's just weird and unhelpful to see ##/0. Like everyone else I thought it was a bug. I'm one of those players who presses tab occasionally to see how much of a map I have left to go. 
me to... 
My viewpoint is a little different than you think!

I think if these guys get the gameplay right, someone else or many people can remaster the visuals.

One example from just today:

This is an Enforcer reskin for DarkPlaces.

I personally view the func_msgboard crowd as largely incapable of "higher resolution" graphics in regard to Quake except for Starbuck -- NOT because the inherent talent doesn't exist obviously but because most func_msgboard members wouldn't even know how replacement skins or replacement textures work in most Quake engines or even what folder they go in, etc.

I think if these guys get the gameplay right, the other stuff is easy. 
Woooh, slow down there Baker.

I personally view the quakeone crowd as largely incapable of figuring out anything apart from double clicking without a helping hand. There, flame returned...

(not too serious, the insult was just not appropiate ;) )

Those skins are undeniably good (all by themselves, as usual I don't think they fit into Quake) but they suffer from the goo-covered saran wrap syndrome introduced by Tenebrae.

I really like the Death Knight skin for a medieval setting (way not demonish enough for Quake). 
Darkplaces = Good (certainly Last Time I Used It) 
Tenebrae = Baad ( " " )

I dont think that the green enforcer skin really goes that well with Quake (the game, the pallette etc) but if a skin was done to the same standard with a more apropriate colour scheme then sure - I'd download it/install it - why not?

The problem witht he hi-res stuff is that Rygels pack is too hi-res. When you turn DP's realtime world lighting on it often runs very very slow (and we all know whay that is, primitive visual optimising from the build process, textures very hi-res)

The 'medium' rygel pack is good though, but incomplete. Not so much for the original 4 episodes, but most other maps are missing loads of textures. That inconcistensy alone kinda makes it a bit crappy.

A package which actually has everything implemented and working nicely (all of the hi-res textures, skins, normals, bumps etc in place for all of the levels provided with the pack) is butter. Yes please, I'll have that on my toast, sir.

I have even figured out how to get "255 255 255" colorscale lit file lighting to actually work in Darkplaces, there is a console command which enables the scaling down of the light values, but on any of the massive modern maps we have now, unless you have Willems compruter you dont really stand a chance of getting 60 or even 30hz.

With something like Remake, well it would take a fairly large team of individuals a lot of time and effort to put a package like that together, but there's nothing to stop the crazy enthusiast from putting their own compilation of hi-rez replacements together and implementing them on whichever mod they like. 
NB I Dint Figure The Colorscale Thing Out Myself 
LordHavock told me 
Spirit, yes you are right ... I made a bit of an overstatement that wasn't fair.

I apologize, had there been an edit button I would have softened those strong statements up a bit. 
@ prior 2 posts ...

No I wasn't trying to switch the conversation to Rygel's texture pack or anything like that.

I was just pointing out the obvious that if the gameplay is solid the visual media can always be changed/upgraded/fancied up later but if the gameplay sucks then why bother. 
I'm Drunk 
But leave the monster count, cuz it's the thing i want to see in most of all modern games but i don't . It's what quake is. &#1041;&#1083;&#1103; 
I guess you overread important information on Mindgrid's pack:

I have been carefully selecting existing effects from the original game available in some commercial sound libraries and reimplementing then at their original CD-Audio quality.
A lot of the sounds are from the Sound Ideas 6000 (or what it is called) library and surely absolutely non-free.

Here are some demos from me: /home/hannes/kram/spiele/quake/remakequake 
Will watch the suckiness over the weekend - been pretty busy. 
That's Alot Of Demos 
Alot more constructive than 'this sucks'.

Bad day?

Just watched the second and had quite a few realisations about the map.

The first shows off speedrunning in an id1. I made a point of saying backwards compatible in id1 for a reason. In any case, the TB pushback is a test, most likely to change. 
Something Big... 
After reading this thread, the stunning feeling came over me, that if Romero or other level- master would make a new map nowadays under covered by a nickname, they would be savaged off this forum. Maybe it is my own humble opinion, but let me be the first one to claim with a big cheer this is something big I am really enjoying!!!

Seeing rain in Quake, real glass and the ingame movie parts set me back on my toes.
And although the skill setting of the monsters seemed a bit low I had the feeling to enter the backdoor garage of Carmack himself.

I don't know from where all that sharp edge comments are usefull for, but I blame it to the spoiled attitude all that new supervideo games have brought. I could never go any further than Quake1, despite of the magnificent advances the other engines have brought.
This is Something Big!

Save me the shitload of criticks I read before I downloaded the demo, as I find it easier to blame the sounds, the abolute minlights and all the so well covered up politics mappers have gathered around them to polish up their sense of a well modified Quake map, than to embrace a new course that could lead to new visions, that encourage the well trodden pathways.

Drop down in that partical excellerating engine in the middle of this demo and drown your insufferable discouriging blame that you throw up to the voluntary survivers who try to makesomething worthwhile of this great game!

Back to that irisistable, pioneering e3mr1rq to get a demo of this Big Thing! 
"After reading this thread, the stunning feeling came over me, that if Romero or other level- master would make a new map nowadays under covered by a nickname, they would be savaged off this forum. "

If someone showed up with an id1 map these days, yes, they'd be savaged. But I'd like to think that Romero would turn in a map with more detail than they delivered on the Quake CD. :) 
Some Advice For U Fellas 
Just read this thread aswell and decided to give the demo a shot. I think some of the criticisms are warranted, just so that in the end RMQ can be a better finished product.

None of the sounds were really that great. If they're not much better than the originals, then why bother? I'd almost keep the original sounds, to be honest. Are you modifying any of the weapon designs? Maybe not a complete redo, but just touch them up a little?

I remember an old mod which reskinned all the quake weapons. I think I used some of them a long time ago, the sg and dsg at least. I always liked the positron beam gl model better too. Haha I found them just now in my first q1 episode. Was a piece of shit, but the reskinned weapons were alright.

Okay on to balance. I love that the sg and dblsg have so powerful now, but you'll have to do soething about the balance. There's no point using any other weapon but these 2 now. Also, some of the monsters will need better AI. the fiends are complete pussies against a SG. if all you have is a SG, and a fiend jumps out, you should be shitting yourself. even a shambler is no match for the sg!!!

Scrap the rain, it's been done before. it just looks like a but weird blobs floating down and the sound is annoying.

The talk about reskinning the baddies that have different firepower. You don't need to just make them different colours like Quoth did, why not reskin them properly. Give one a mask, or completely different styling. They can all be the same dirty quake colours, just different styles. That should be enough.

All these things are not major though. I do think it feels more like partial conversion than a quake remix. but maybe that was bound to happen anyway.

my last concern with the demo was that map. it was a bit bland and needs a lot more detailing. the outside sections in particular aren't really up to todays high standards. or at least the awesome standard done on a few of the remixed id levels already released (the e1m1rmx, Quake RMX map pack). the route was also completely confusing and to be honest, i didn't really feel like i was playing a remixed e3m1.

anyway hope this helps! i'd love to do some maps as well, but i'm way too busy as it is to ever map again :( 
I haven't tried the better graphics, nor the better sound, just played the excellent demo! 
Thanks For Comments 
I would like to try the qonquer mod with the weapons from this mod. It could be fun. 
New game mode there. We've got alot of SP maps to slay though - as well as the DM demo coming up.

Nice idea, shelved for now - but not discarded. 
I could work that mod into the RMQ code base when the time comes if you want. I don't think it would be that much work - a few new entities, really. 
You Want Onto The Team? 
The SP maps are the more grueling task, so it's nice to work on smaller stuff in-between - Qonquer maps fit that profile well. 
Is remakequake going to feature new weapons? 

Sure. I can make small arena maps for a Qonquer type mode without a time issue. Hook me up. :) Remember, I'm a Mac guy so if this will be a Windows only affair, I might not be able to help. 
We're Already 
Windows / Linux, so there shouldn't be any problems. 
New Weapons 
Are a possibility but not planned as yet.

Stealing Enforcer weapons is a maybe.

There is a grappling hook, based off the wicked hook - rope style physics as opposed to ignore gravity pulling. 
[quote]Stealing Enforcer weapons is a maybe. [/quote]

Didn't NSOE already kind of has this? Also, I feel that the remake Quake Chainsaw isn't as good as the one in Zer.

Is something like a railgun possible in Quake I? 

btw i need a kick up the arse 
Railgun = Mmmmmm YEAH!!!! 
just port a model already pls :D 
Is something like a railgun possible in Quake I?

The pickup model is WIP, the gameplay is yet to be finalized (although it's very close to final). But the thematical direction is there - a weapon from the other side of the slipgate. Might become a monster weapon, too.

And that's the new DM7RQ in the background, by ijed. 
This looks more like a... gross! 
That Model Is *so* Not Final, FYI 
Going to lay off the lunchtime q3 next week and get the new version in. 
That's an under lit brick wall in the background ijed... ;p 
Actually I Find The Model Not Too Bad 
although it certainly could use more polish, the idea is clearly shown even with such a rough model. Flesh combined with steel. I like it! 
Should it need much hard coding to get the circulair ammu spread? 
A Circular 
particle effect would be nice, but very hard to to, AFAIK.

And since it's now the Cauteriser as opposed to the Railgun we'll need to look for something else. Currently it's a straight line with red electrical effect and white particles. 
Railgun In Quake1 
Piercing hitscan is not hard. The part that makes adding a Quake1 railgun problematic are the visual effects, at least if one wants the corkscrew trail as seen in Quake2. The corkscrew can be done, but I found it to be a particle hog, similar to the lavasplash effect.

Another problem with the railgun in Quake is against monsters. Unless enough monsters are modified to be a threat from long range, or ammo is very rare, a railgun with power comparable to the rocket launcher will destroy monsters before they become a threat to the player. 
And since it's now the Cauteriser

I guess I wasted my time blurring the name out, then... 
Maybe The Spirlal Effect Could Be Done Using An MDL? 
Like the lightning model 
what about making the effects similar to what is in SW, using sprites? 
The corkscrew can be done, but I found it to be a particle hog ...

Correct, this is why we're currently making use of the previously-unused beam effect.

Another problem with the railgun in Quake is against monsters. ...

We're working on this. :) 
Sorry OTP 
As long as this railgun is so disgusting, why not make it an Alien Arm cannon? You have to get out the chainsaw and saw it off. 
Because There Are No Aliens In Quake 
okay, a monster arm cannon 
Yeah, Not A Bad Idea 
saw a shambler arm off, and use it instead of LG.
Or cut down a Hell Knight arm, and shoot out those sparkling sizzling firework. 
Or A Shub Penis 
There is already an idea floating around, but will have to see what happens. We're very busy. 
But Shub Is Female? 
Now I'm all confused and scared at the thought of a hermaphroditic Shub. :( 
Do A Google Image Search 
The horror, the horror. 
Didn't Find 
The references I was looking for, but basically there's a collection of black and white line drawings by a few different artists that have shub as a hermathrodite. With two peni. The giz of one is black and the other white - life and death, I seem to remember.

I hope you're all looking forward to the new Shub-Niggurath. 
The Second One Is My Desktop 
3rd Image 
giga-shambler (lol, wtf) looks pretty cool, but what's with the cheery little orange guy under shub? 
Chibi Chthon 
4th Image For The Win 
I'd love to see that one animated! 
Chibi Chthon

hahaomg o.o dooo eeet 
Assembla is down then. 
And Is Back Up 
Coinciding with my bill arriving . . . 
let's hack ijed bill's acountsman! 
I saw the use of a railgun in RQ and was shattered by the rather clumpsy wrist thump that was used.
As I tried the spiral launch attack I might as well try the railgun also.

It hasn't yet been positioned so it might look too much in screen. 
Be Patient 
I don't have max installed at home (thanks Vista) so the new version is waiting until monday / tuesday.

In any case it is a different weapon, just with a similar place in the toolbox. 
Once Again, 
madfox, i'm bowing to you

you ROCK..... 
It's So Cold Out Here 
Up on this ledge.

Goodbye cruel world. 
dont joke

srsly, yu fucking rock endof 
Didn't mean to trivilaise. 
I was playing the old Quake ripoff Chasm: the Rift, where it has the ability to blow off enemies' limbs. Would something like this be possible in remakequake? 
Was done for ragdoll Quake (can't remember the proper name) which was a MP DP mod with dismemberment that basically painted the walls and floor.

We decided to use Gyro (the same physics code it used) but avoid ragdoll / dismemberment.

We've talked back and forth about locational damage, but so far I'm not convinced we could have it without bloating the project another X decades beyond its sell by.

The problems are different animations, skins for each respective dismemberment / damage multiplied by the amount of dismemberable monsters and a completely reworked collision system (shot to legs = shot to legs).

We're with a very heavy workload already and still haven't even started alot of the monsters and have no finished monsters, although some of the base ones are close. 
For Lunaran 
Where did he go?
Now I remember his idea of the undead knight.

Lunaran, come back from the moon!
You ran too far! 
The RQ Team Wishes You A Gory, Traumatising Halloween (Mall Cop Style)

So This Is What You Post When I'm Not Looking, Master 
Demo 2 Aka RQTEST 
More Mirrors 
Comments welcome.

Based purely from the shots, the first shot is nice, good change from the usual themes and the more finished version of the CTF map with the cracked hole is looking very nice.

2nd shot (dm2?) is kinda cheesy tho. 
Make this a news post to get more attention. 
what with that autoexec.cfg?
dm2rq: Fullbright pixels, ugh. weird delay after button presses. 
Comments read at least.

I've always liked the Ogro set used in dm2 personally - there's enough gears in there as well. Not quite gearpr0n . . .

Could be a news post, but it's only a demo, and MP orientated on this SP mapping forum. Guessing those that care will check it anyway.

The autoexec is like that so it works on linux as well. 
In Gl Proquake 4 Zeta On Dm2rq 
I've no idea what those eyes are doing there . . . will check. I can't see them though - can you give me repro conditions?

Where are you stood in that second shot? I know of one point where it's possible to stand on a should be unreachable, but that ones looks much more broken.

And I see the fullbrights in the horizontal skull trim as well. 
Ignore The Skybox! 
ProQuake 4 currently only supports the "standard" skybox size of 512x512. I haven't had time to make it support any skybox size yet. 
For The Eyes 
it was sp walk through in proquake4 
Actually ... 
The sky probably look like that because fog is enabled in dm2rq's worldspawn.

That's not the fault of RemakeQuake, but the fault of ProQuake 4. Right now, any level of fog will make the skybox entirely black.

Skybox and fog support in ProQuake 4 aren't refined yet.

re: the autoexec.cfg thing.

An engine should execute that as part of quake.rc, for example I get this .. (thanks console copy capability!):

DirectSound initialized
Sound sampling rate: 11025 Hz
CDAudio_Init: No CD in player.
CD Audio Initialized
Operating System: Windows Vista
Host Initialized
execing quake.rc
execing default.cfg
execing config.cfg
execing autoexec.cfg
couldn't exec ..\id1\autoexec.cfg
couldn't exec ../id1/autoexec.cfg

The first instance is autoexec.cfg being executed in the gamedir folder. I guess you are wanting the id1 autoexec.cfg to get executed as well.


Is there a good reason for that? That isn't normal Quake behavior for a mod.

I dunno. Maybe you guys have a reason that isn't immediately known but makes perfect sense. 
Even if you decide you want it to do that (execute the id autoexec.cfg) the filesystem is operating system agnostic.

Doing it the Linux way ...

../id1/autoexec.cfg ...

... will work on every operating system including Windows. 
Good Info 
The basic reason was so player's don't have to put all their settings back just to test the demo. I did the same in warp as well, just seems a bit of extra user-friendly.

Is it undesired behaviour? I assume savvy types will c+p their own options in, but casual players will probably be irritated to manually reset their config.

Sp walkthrough . . . I'll take a look. Never checked the MP maps in SP, at least the ones I didn't make. The ones I did maybe once or so. 
Got It 
That's an ambient_ghost. The idea was to make something similar to a moving sound producer.

The code has since been made obsolete by our NPC's and the ghost is apparantly removed in MP - I used the monster AI code.

Basically a scrap that needs to be removed, looks like Aenoch was experimenting and forgot to remove it. 
Ah Ok 
If you do not provide a config.cfg the id1 cfgs will be executed. At least as far as I have experienced it. 
I mean: then the existing keybindings will end up in the new config. 
Don't replace autoexec.cfg or config.cfg in you mod -- replace quake.rc and use it to call a brand new config before or after the lines that call config.cfg and autoexec.cfg. That way it will play nice with users' existing configs. 
Quake.rc is the way to do it properly then?

The reason we did it this way was becuase we're all playing from a mod folder 'RemakeQuake' and therefore lost our key bindings etc when id1 was loaded.

Should have thought it through better, but you live and learn. 
So Do Y'all Rate The Maps Then Or What? 
Actual Feedback.... 
i was really pleased with DM1 and DM4, the feeling of proportion was good and the spatial changes felt good. The maps were fresh and recognizable at the same time. I especially liked how DM1 all the rooms were closer together (less hallway) and it felt more open, and the way the entire layout now has a concept -- the central chapel-looking building surrounded by courtyards. Both of these maps seem to have too much minlight, though.

The brushwork for that central tree thing in the CTF remake was really impressive, too. 
the reason to do it the quake.rc way is so that the player's id1/autoexec.cfg gets executed correctly, since you don't have a rmq/autoexec.cfg. And the id1/config.cfg gets used (at least the first time you run the mod) as well. Then your rmq.cfg gets called (or maybe you want to call it before the other files) and does whatever you need done. 
Minlight's been commented on - need to do some normalisation since lighting in general seems to be our weak point.

Did you try the bots?

Like I say, getting a proper config we kind of forgot about - we've each evolved our own over the years and months of the project, and we don't share them. Next time we'll get it right. 
Good Stuff 
Haven't played with bots, just ran through the maps.

dm1rq: Nice remake, feels faster than the original with the spacial changes metl mentioned. The breakable windows add a nice touch (also in other maps). Floating torches always look strange, why not just move them close to the wall, give them a low light value and use a point light a few units in front of them instead. Too much minlight - please don't use it at all. You might want to consider clipping off the roofs and stuff to take care of camping (then again, without a rocket launcher camping would be pointless anyway).

dm2rq: Good theme with Ogro, chains and cogs, but the map is way too dark! The buttons (lava pit/squisher/quad bridge) have too much delay in my view, they should work almost instantly - or maybe only with a short delay of 0.5. . There's some z-fighting where the chains touch the ceiling. You should also do something about the sky at the bottom of the pits being visible when dying there.

dm4rq: A bit minlighty too. I'm not sure if the increased spaciousness (vs. the original's crampiness) is better or worse. Probably better, but it requires to change established tactics. The gaps in the floor make grenade spam ineffective. This could be considered a good thing, though I hope it doesn't make the GL useless now. It's a pity some of the jumps don't work anymore, e.g. rj out the lava pit in the atrium (you know, that control situation when people camp near the LG and shoot behind you when you exit the teleporter). The jumps LG->SNG->stairs and GL->stairs don't work anymore either, which is unfortunate. The ambient sound fits well (perhaps you could add some pumps or arcane lava machinery in some area, like the cogs in dm2) but it's also somewhat annoying after a while, perhaps lower its volume a little?

dm6rq: Good ambience. The MH room is cool (and I like the look of that flesh gun) - there're some rogue spaces behind the flesh colomns. Get rid of the arrows, people will eventually figure out where to do the trick jumps. Again, some of the gaps at the sides of the walkways seem to render grenades ineffective. The metal structures next to the stairs are still blocking the player in the upper part, I recommend making the gap larger or even indenting them so they won't interfere.

dm7rq: Nice reinterpretation, especially with the plant growth. A bit too dark though. The raised/stair bits add a positive touch to the lower level. The hook should be most effective in this map. A health items falls out.

ctf1rq: Didn't know this map, but the RMQ version looks good. Too minlighty again. That tree thing in the courtyard is cool too. I strongly recommend to merge the textures (e.g. brick+trim and blue+red brick) to lower the polycount in this area. I'm sure you'd be able to shave off some 1000 wpoly like this. Rockets fall out.

I take it dm3rq and dm5rq aren't finished yet. Too bad, I was particularly interested in dm5, as I once had plans to do a remix map myself.
The new stuff sound interesting, like walljumps (even though I didn't manage to do one), bezerk mode, stairs sliding etc.
I still don't like the apprearance of the health vials/MH. They look too comicy and clean for a Quake environment. Maybe try to make them look dirtier, add some stains and cracks. The sound is atrocious too. Some 'swoop-gulp' sound would fit much better than this Commander Keen thing. 
need to do some normalisation
Get rid of it completely. Using a bunch of point lights looks much better in any way (and more Quake-oldschoolish if you want). And it's not that much additional work. 
I still don't like the apprearance of the health vials/MH. They look too comicy and clean for a Quake environment. Maybe try to make them look dirtier, add some stains and cracks.

What we're doing for the health/armor items is making them worldtype dependant. Load up a base map and watch the stimpacks/health kits/armor shards/etc change to base versions. We intend to give each worldtype their own, distinct pickups - they'll probably look nothing like health vials in their final forms.

As written in the readme, what you're seeing right now are placeholders. Hopefully we'll have new items by the time we make a new release (not anytime soon!)... 
Or Just RTFM 
I feel kinda rude for telling ceriux to rtfm... I'm getting weak. Thanks for feedback, negke, you have mail. 
Yeah Alright 
I missed that line. 
I did the placeholder models for the pickups, they're pretty lame. Typically for this sort of thing I slap a big PLACEHOLDER texture on, but I was gearing towards finishing them at the time, until a load of work stuff interrupted.

Ok, all minlight to go. It's sunlight in CTF1RQ but it's not really needed - will help the atmosphere if it's heavily lowered as well.

DM7RQ hook is pretty useles - Gb pointed this out before the demo release, but I was struggling to find good points for the grapples. All those walkways get in the way of proper swinging. 
Hey ijed,

I don't see an option for this and I don't see anything on the project page ... can you punt me from the project since I'm obviously not contributing anything at the moment. I don't want the hundred emails a day that it generates if I'm not on the project.

Choice Of Contribution Emails 
Don't know if I'm right, but on the bottum of the email there's something like:
Follow all team member project activity or change your alert preferences here  
Yeah, I went to that link but I don't see how to change my communication settings. It's probably best if I'm dropped anyway, I never did do anything. 
No ReQonquer then, I take it. 
No time, sorry. I can give you guys the source code if you want it though ... if I didn't already release it. 
The Option 
Was on the 'Stream' tab. Just let one of us know if you want back on in the future. 
Multiplayer Patch 1 
I was just checking out the blog, which I hadn't spotted before you linked it in another thread. Screenshots are looking fantastic!

You guys still on track for a fall release of the SP demo? 
We should be. What it'll contain is currently mostly WIP so I don't want to mention it all.

Demo2 will contain at least one playable map and multiple new enemies.

A devkit isn't being considered yet, since our maplist is still a gaping maw that even the toughest mappers will vanish into, never to be seen again.

It's slow going, in other words, and anyone wanting to make their own maps with the entities / features I'd try to get onto the team proper. 
The screenshots look great. Keep it going. 
in particular looks great in those shots. 
the centre bridge from The Dismal Oubliette looks awesome. 
SP Demo #2 Almost Here 
Looks Cool! 
So I just played e3m1rq again, and I have to say, the atmosphere is amazing. The rain, dripping ceilings broken walls, floors, &c really add to the map. Things aren't so static anymore. Sounds are still funny, especially the wizard's. Shotgun sounds good though. 
Next Prog Release 
When are the next version of the progs going to be released? I'd like to try out my map. :p 
A demo is due soon, but if you only need a progs.dat I reckon we can simply upload that. 
Wait, What? 
I'd like to try out my map.

o_O just realized this. :) 
I'm a lot slower than Gb - but
if you want to be in on the latest updates then you can either join the team or wait a week or so.

The next demo is coming to the boil, but we'll never complain about new blood. 
I wouldn't have much to contribute. New to mapping, the only thing I've done with textures is add some snow to them, and don't know enough quakec voodoo. I'll just wait for the demo. 
To make a bold statement: It should be out this year. 
Remakequake Is Going To Make You His Bitch 
bitch ad style bitchmaking I'd like to avoid ;-)

other bitchmaking is ok. 
And I Was Like 
So Uh, Yeah

This might be already waiting as a news post, but just in case. 
thanks ijed/everyone - can't wait to play this! 
You should use -sndspeed 44100 on the command line, otherwise half of it will be lost on you.

isn't this default for rmq engine? if not then it should be!

can't play this or even access trac for the next few days since i'm at my parents. not played the full version with chthon yet so looking forward to it :) 
Following the drama about this project not being covered at Quaddicted and not being in its archive I have a question:

What ultimate goal or vision are you working towards? 
Hirez Quake 
In terms of gameplay. Some have said a spiritual successor to Quake 1 which the strogg game made afterwards and given the same name didn't quite fit.

I spose that's a fair way of saying it, although we are remaking the original maps and monsters. A lot of what we're doing is things that id probably intended on some level at the time but were limited by the tech or monetary constraints.

External to the project we're interested in community support and maintaining the project open source. Things like rotating tech development, Mh's engine voodoo and so on. 
I wrote a lengthy history, but - what ijed said.

Lengthy history might appear at blog. 
Question For The RMQ Team About Network Protocols... 
I noticed that DirectQ has a network protocol 778 which is referred to as the "Remake Quake protocol", but the RMQ engine has 999 as its official protocol. Are these two protocols different, and which one is going to become the final RMQ protocol?

Also, MH, was there ever at protocol 777 and if so, is it only present in older builds of DirectQ?

I ask because I've seen some demos in the Rubicon2 thread that were recorded in 778, and wondering if this is now a protocol that needs widespread support since people are distributing demos with it. 
778 is an oddity; I'd been using DirectQ for protocol experiments at one point and unfortunately it got released. I'm pretty sure that the only difference between it and Fitz is that it uses floats for coords and angles everywhere. I'd say let it die; DirectQ itself is going back to 666 as the default.

777 did exist and was GB's original RMQ protocol, which I'm almost certain was identical to 666 but with the number just bumped for future modification (and possibly with shorts for angles, I don't remember). Don't think it was ever released publicly, but it may have been privately circulated at one point.

999 is the intended "final" (whenever that may be) RMQ protocol. As it's WIP nobody should be releasing demos made with it, and it's always been clear that anything RMQ is subject to change (999 has already had one change since the demo release). The nature of this means that interim versions of 999 will get out, but the alternative option is to create a whole bunch of interim protocols all of which would probably need to be supported. What I'll probably send up doing is adding a "ProtocolFlags" uint to both server and client, and use that to communicate differences between successive revisions. Bleagh.

If nothing else all this makes me appreciate even more the route you took with 666 (although I do wish you'd bumped coords to float and angles to short; many of the maps need both pretty badly). 
Oh No... 
If nothing else all this makes me appreciate even more the route you took with 666 (although I do wish you'd bumped coords to float and angles to short; many of the maps need both pretty badly).

so does this mean standard FQ will never have extra precision angles? :S 
> so does this mean standard FQ will never have extra precision angles? :S

Unless metl bumps the protocol in the future, it can't. Well, I tell a lie; it does for the player viewpoint, but not for other entities. 
but in order to do that, he'd have to either make a new protocol or previous demos and such wouldn't work anymore, right? 
Speaking of precision, and from a standpoint of zero technical knowledge but; since part of your aims with RemakeQuake is to expand on the engine and tech, what about importing more features of Q3 BSP and such into it (for example less fiddly restrictions on brush shape and precision). You already seem to be making maps that pretty much need your engine to run properly anyway :)

I've no idea how hard such things would be to do, just thoughts :E 
Actually, 999 is the WIP protocol number for RMQ - a dev protocol, and it should be understood as such. As in, 999 isn't 1000.

There will be a protocol 1000, perhaps as a Quake Standard Base protocol (that was the thought behind choosing 999). But since RMQ is years from a full release, an RMQ-(and thus Fitzquake 666-)based QSB protocol is way in the future.

The only other candidate for a QSB protocol would be DP7 I think, but 666 is just better documented and seemed more portable to me when I got to pick the engine to base RMQ on. :)

BSP format etc. concerns are a recurring topic in RMQ discussion and elsewhere, but please understand what we are pushing right now. We have no capacity to stem all at once (well, only almost - I read on the trac today that RMQe now has a basic csqc implementation, not to mention the recent addition of a video capture method, go figure).

It will all come together in due time, and everything will hopefully be documented and portable and crossplatform and as friendly as possible; and as solid and ruggedized and sane as we can make it.

As for an updated Fitzquake protocol, I believe 777 was only in discussion for a short time as far as I know, so both 777 and 888 should still be free.

And yeah, some RMQ maps break protocol 666 badly. 666 still has the original map size limit for example, which is broken already. 
so does this mean standard FQ will never have extra precision angles? :S

Fitzquake might support this by either adding support for other people's protocols (like RMQ) or by introducing a new one of its own with a new number. As you point out, i can't change 666 without breaking compatability with everything that already exists. 
What Does All This Mean 
in non-tech terms? just curious. 
The main things that break are demos and servers. If you record a demo using protocol A and try to play it back with an engine that doesn't support that protocol, you'll get the dreaded "illegible server message" (an error that will be very familiar to anyone who's ever done protocol work). If you have a client that doesn't support protocol B and you try to connect to a server that only supports protocol B, you'll also get the same error.

Tech-wise in RMQ the major requirements for a BSP format are extended capacity (particularly in vertexes, but to a lesser extent in marksurfaces) and detail brushes. These are priority and any consideration of alternate formats must address these before anything else.

Protocol-wise, 999 has had two revisions since the demo was released, and both of these break compatibility. The most recent one is the last one that will ever break compatibility though, as 999 now has the ability to be extended and adjusted at will while retaining compatibility throughout all iterations of it. 
demo conversion is always a possibility though right? i remember aguirre released a utility for converting demos recorded in his engine (which used its own protocol iirc) so they could be played in regular ones. 
Convdem only works for protocol 15 and 10002. The tool can't process any of the other ones. 
So Uhh 
You're right, it's a possibility. However, the question is if someone would be willing to modify the tool to work with the other three big protocols as well. 
It wouldn't be difficult to extend the tool (or to write a new one) for other protocol versions, but there are messages in some protocols that just don't even exist in others (I'm thinking alpha as the most obvious example).

The intention with 999 is that at it's most basic level it is identical to 666, with the exception of an extra writelong (on the server) and readlong (on the client) following the version. Conversion from 666 to 999 is just a matter of adding that extra long and making sure that it's 0. If it's not 0, then things get interesting as the value of it will define what's different (that part is still WIP). 
ta, thanks for that. Although I was actually wondering about the precision thing you guys were talking about. 
So are you saying that (hypothetical example) and older RMQ client that supports 999.1,990.2, and 999.3 will be able to play a demo recorded with the newer 999.4 protocol?

If not, it doesn't seem like you'd gain anything from the normal concept of protocol_version that we have now. 
the floating point cooordinates and angles provide a couple things:

1. you can travel beyond +/- 4096 in world space without wrapping around

2. rotating doors/trains/etc. (especially large ones, or slow-moving ones) have smooth motion rather than jumping from position to position.

3. slow movement is smoother, instead of moving in discrete 1/8th pixel steps. (Admittedly, the only time i can even notice the discrete steps is if I stand on the ramp at the beginning of e1m1 and zoom in at a wall. As I slowly slide down the ramp, I can see the stepping motion of the wall moving past the crosshair.) 
> So are you saying that (hypothetical example) and older RMQ client that supports 999.1,990.2, and 999.3 will be able to play a demo recorded with the newer 999.4 protocol?

From this day onwards, more or less yes. Previous versions of 999 will remain incompatible, but current and future versions will be able to play demos and connect to servers using any prior revision of it. I haven't got forward compatibility working yet (that requires the client to send some stuff to the server on connection and the server to downgrade it's protocol for the client), but full backwards compatibility is there.

So say we release the next RMQ pack in June. Someone records a demo using it. Then say we release another in November with a revised protocol. The November engine will still be able to play the June demo and connect to servers running the June version of the protocol. That means that content and servers will be protected against any future revisions of the protocol, which makes it easier and more feasible to extend the protocol without introducing a whole mess of mutually incompatible versions.

> 2. rotating doors/trains/etc. (especially large ones, or slow-moving ones) have smooth motion rather than jumping from position to position.

This one is critical for RMQ as there are rotating brush models that are both large and slow-moving.

Extending the coords is also critical as there is at least one map that exceeds the +/- 4096 limit. 
Two, probably 3 maps in episode 1 alone will break the old +-4096 limit. e1m3rq already does, e1m5rq is highly likely to break it (look at the numbers):

and e1m4rq might do as well (very deep underground lake plus very vertical structures). 
I'm actually quite shocked that e2m1rq doesn't break it too; that must be some fairly tight mapping. 
Im counting vertexes. 
I can see how a server could negotiate the right protocol for a client, but isn't it too late when trying to playback a demo that's already recorded? 
> I can see how a server could negotiate the right protocol for a client, but isn't it too late when trying to playback a demo that's already recorded?

Not with this one; it just works (just tested it by toggling features on and off while recording and playing back demos, not a bother).

Server sends version.
Server sends flags indicating which additional features it supports.

Client reads version.
Client reads flags.

Client now knows which additional features it needs to support.

The flags are stored in the demo file too, so the client can interpret them correctly from there. It's like having multiple protocols in the one version all of which can coexist peacefully with each other, and to add a new feature you just add a new flag, test for it in your code, and do whatever else you need with no fear of breaking compatibility with anything that's already out there.

void MSG_WriteAngle (sizebuf_t *sb, float f, int protocol, unsigned int flags)
if (protocol == PROTOCOL_VERSION_RMQ)
if (flags & PRFL_FLOATANGLE)
MSG_WriteFloat (sb, f);
else if (flags & PRFL_SHORTANGLE)
MSG_WriteShort (sb, Q_rint (f * 65536.0 / 360.0) & 65535);
else MSG_WriteByte (sb, Q_rint (f * 256.0 / 360.0) & 255);
else MSG_WriteByte (sb, Q_rint (f * 256.0 / 360.0) & 255);

The really cool thing is that these flags can also be cvar-ized for server admins in MP games. 
post 470 is pretty damn exciting, especially the idea of an e1m5 that breaks limits and e1m4 with a "very deep underground lake." hell yeah. 
very deep underground lake

It does make things interesting - $player will need a way to breathe down there, since when it comes down to it you can't hold your breath very long while diving in Quake.

Detailed architecture under water will also be interesting - because there needs to be air inside, but water outside. That's either a fuckload of tiny water brushes - or a func_air. 
wait, but if you update the protocol by adding new flags, how can an older client know what those flags mean?

Or are you saying that it would simply recognize it can't play the demo, and display an error to the user? 
> wait, but if you update the protocol by adding new flags, how can an older client know what those flags mean?

The point is that the older client doesn't; it works the other way around. Newer clients can connect to older servers and play older demos. 
i don't really know much at all about engine coding, so maybe i'm not fully grasping what you mean, but it sounds like what you've done is basically obsoleted protocols in general.

which, you know, would be fucking great. i hate seeing 'demo is protocol x, not y, sucker! go load another engine' :P 
okay, so that seems more like what i expected, i think i had misunderstood your earlier posts.

It seems like the old system of having svc_version to indicate a protocol version covers most of this already. (for example, aguirre added 3 new versions and his newer engines could always read older demos and talk to older servers.)

The thing that your plan for 999 seems to add, is that you can mix and match N features without having N^2 different protocols. Which is nice, I admit. I'm not totally sure how many of those combinations are really useful, but I see the value of staying flexible.

For example, I can see the idea of floats for coords/angles being a real trade-off, where sometimes you want smaller packet sizes for internet play, and sometimes you want higher accuracy for the best single player experience. And i could see how the engine could just automatically handle the choice, based on whether your maxplayers == 1, or... serve small coords to remote clients but large coords to the local client.

I guess the downside to this system, if there is one, is that the end user has less of a clear idea of what they need. For example, if a my engine can't play a demo and says "this demo uses protocol 10002", i can go find an engine that supports it. In the case of 999, an engine that advertises full 999 this year may eventually become incomplete, when a newer 999 featureset comes out. In that case, the engine will say "it's 999 but there's some bits i don't recognize, try getting a newer engine" which is still pretty straightforward, but it means the engine has to advertise "i support these subset of 999 features, which at the time of this writing, is all of them."

So maybe you should have well-defined subversions (999v2, 999v3, etc) which people can implement as you roll them out, and then users can say "demo says it requires 999v3, i need an engine that supports that or higher."

Which is almost the same as just using different protocol numbers... they are intended as "versions" after all :) 
Trying To Run Some Demos Recorded With RMQ 
It gives me:

RMQ engine 0.85 (feb 16 2011) Server (16646 CRC)
bad maxclients (65) from server

Host_Error: illegible server message, previous was svc_serverinfo"

Anything I can do to get it running? :E 
Can you post one of these demos anywhere? 
The demo is of gb testing my map. I can email you the map if you like :) 
I probably used an earlier build to record them. A matter of figuring out the revision and building that I guess. 
four exes and none play it, so bleh here yer go :P



If you've got a build dated feb 16th that might help. I've tried dec 23rd, jan 25th, feb 1st and feb 21st :E 
Oh yeah requires Quoth. I always forget to mention that guh :p 
I have an idea about the grapple. Maybe it could be used to pull certain power ups towards you? 
It Does That 
With pushable objects, and currently attaches you to monsters.

The behaviour against monsters isn't very clear just yet - it does no damage and they're always assumed to be heavier since most of them are.

Powerups would be weird since they're mystical things. Maybe for ammo or health though, that makes sense. 
Selfish Poke 
To see if mh took a look at those demos :E 
Engine Bug Report 
cvar scr_crosshairscale is broken

also for some reason it crashes trying to load rubicon2 maps 
Its Only One Of Them 
I think, metslime's 2nd one. Not sure why. 
The engine isn't intended as a general purpose Quake engine. It's purpose is to run RMQ content and to act as a sample implementation of engine changes needed for RMQ content. The longer term intention is that the RMQ engine will become obsolete.

With that in mind, issues relating to general purpose usage of the engine (especially with other maps and mods) are quite low priority, and the recommended solution is normally going to be something like "use another engine".

All the same though, I'll check it out and see why it's crashing as it may be relevant for RMQ. 
I just tend to use it to play everything to get the decent FPS.

Fastvis is now good enough - even not vising doesn't take that much of a hit performance wise. 
Me Too 
i struggle to use anything else now. it's essentially quakespasm with coloured dynamic lights, contrast slider, better performance and higher limits. just the contrast alone made it hard switching back to QS for rubicon2 (it was metl's first map that crashed for me)

another map crashed it the other day too, forgot what it was though. 
We Found The Bug 
Something to do with particles, apparently. I'm looking at the diff and I don't understand it, though... 
Fastvis Good Enough? 
Careful with this - I know most people these days have multicore cpus and geforce 8 bajillions, but crucially, not everybody does. Quake's beauty is that it still runs well on "that old POS collecting dust in the closet." 
Fastvis Good Enough! 
Well the key point here is that high-end hardware is not actually a requirement. The renderer has been completely restructured to allow for more efficient geometry processing (look up GPU batching on Google sometime). In fact in some cases fast vis may even be faster than full vis as the BSP tree can be simpler (traversing it can be a huge CPU bottleneck).

This can be a bit counter-intuitive because you have to throw out everything you know about how the Quake engine works and what it's good or bad at. wpoly counts become more or less irrelevant, wide open and complex scenes are no longer a problem, heavy dynamic lighting comes almost free of charge, and so on. 
I run my maps on a non-gaming laptop that overheats pretty quickly with even fitzquake due to the C/GPU usage.

Most of the original Quake architecture is based on you having a crappy PC, or is just completely outdated in terms of software (as Mh says).

Its why a monster pc that doesn't have any problems with, say, Crysis, has problems with some of the bigger Q1 custom maps even though you're looking at a fraction of the poly counts, texture quantities and texture sizes. 
I Mean 
It doesn't matter if you have a good or bad system to run the engine on - it'll still be incredibly slick. 
Gotta also remember that Quake's original software design was based around a software renderer running on an MS_DOS machine with a p60 and 8 MB of RAM. That was then crudely ported to run on $25,000 OpenGL workstation cards, and then crudely ported again to run on first generation 3DFX cards through a Glide wrapper.

So a lot of the design decisions made back then either don't work well (immediate mode), don't work at all (gl_ztrick) or are just plain dangerous (writing to the front buffer) on more modern GPUs (and by that I mean any consumer-level hardware from about 1999 or so that has a full native OpenGL driver). 
I would argue though that not fullvising a map is very unprofessional. 
Me Too 
Do R_showtris 1 In FitzQuake 
and watch how many polygons are rendered on a flat surface for no reason at all except that the map compilers were meant for DOSQuake and WinQuake and cut up surfaces into a billion pieces. 
and cut up surfaces into a billion pieces.

i've been wondering if it's possible to make this any better... you spend ages doing your trisouping and then qbsp doesn't seem to actually care and cuts it up worse than if you had just carved everything out of a cube. :( 
I Would Argue 
That nowadays you should be able to bypass bsp altogether. Put all level geometry into VBOs and render those in one go. Just look at the triangle throughput that modern GFX cards have. It's so high that you can easily just render your entire Quake map and still be fast. And if that doesn't work, you could implement some simple culling, but you wouldn't need a BSP anymore I think. 
You still need the BSP tree for stuff other than rendering. The server uses it for clipping, movement, tracelines, positioning entities in the world, and so on. Really though only nodes and leafs (and clipnodes) are needed for that, and the surfaces can be easily omitted.

I believe that Half Life 2 stores the original map brushes in it's BSP and uses those for rendering, so it can avoid all of the ultra-heavy tesselation that QBSP does. This would be a great feature for any hypothetical extended BSP format. 
Those are areas of the engine that I'm not familiar with, so I was talking only about the renderer. 
I Have Not Used The Full True RMQ Engine 
being that I'm on a ppc mac laptop with a Radeon 9700m. So I have not personally experienced its dramatic efficiency. However, mh, what you are claiming is most impressive and exciting.

Am I understanding correctly that the rmq renderer is more efficient than vis at culling unseen surfaces?

I looked at that batching stuff and it went a bit over my head. But from a mappers perspective,

wpoly counts become more or less irrelevant, wide open and complex scenes are no longer a problem, heavy dynamic lighting comes almost free of charge, and so on.

Is all I really care about, don't really need to know the nitty-gritty. 
The main obstacle when it comes to Mac RMQ is that none of us has a Mac. I could try installing a virtual OSX machine, if that's even possible, but I'm busy :-P

Mac compiling help would probably be welcome. Just to see what happens. It's hard to fix Mac problems without a Mac though. 
Bloody things are so annoyingly expensive. Easily the most annoying thing about trying to make iphone stuff :p

Well, that and having an iphone too... 

wide open and complex scenes are no longer a problem

And with that, terrain generator programs start looking pretty attractive all of a sudden.

If only terrain in Quake was more interesting. I'd love to be able to blend terrain textures for example... or simply import .obj terrain and have that loaded in the engine.


Only then it would be even less "Quakey". Sounds almost (argh!) modern. 
Quake 5 Anyone? 
Would be cool. Re-build engine, monsters and weapon system from scratch with modern engine, AKA that Doom mod from a while back......

Nah - but a terraingen tool would be soo cool and make mapping faster for me :) 
But Then It Wouldn't Be Quake 
For Me 
The most practical use so far is culling on func_wall, and the removal of the entity flicker bug.

Basically, I'm building box rooms, and then decorating the fuck out of them with a single func_wall each.

In theory I can combine multiple func_walls into one.

A recent compile went from 12 minutes vis to 43 - I realised I'd left a single object collection as brushwork instead of wall. 
Am I understanding correctly that the rmq renderer is more efficient than vis at culling unseen surfaces?

It's actually the case that performance of the renderer is far less impacted on by those extra surfaces. They're still there and they still go through, but they don't slow things down even nearly as much as a more traditional setup. 
Just because you can doesn't mean you should... 
Why Not? 
i did that exact thing in that blue coloured ruins map i posted shots of. i had detail brushes that were interchangeable so i'd just put in the appropriate ones and leave them all seperate.

i ran out of vertices doing this and i had to go back and combine all func_walls in one room together so the compiler could start to cut out vertices and such.

you can be sloppy and leave your func_walls seperate in a small map, but once you get to a certain size, you'll need to go around optimizing again. :(

that said, i'm not sure i'd be entirely against making some kind of new bsp format which allows a much larger amount of vertices, clipnodes and such. i know that the new limit imposed by metl's original fitzquake of 65536 vertices cannot be broken without changing the map format. 
There are plenty of reasons in a traditional Quake engine to not do this, including the fact that traditional Quake engines will choke on rendering so many brush models. The RMQ engine does not choke on brush models. Like I said - throw out your current understanding of what the renderer is good or bad at, because it's no longer valid.

Reasons that remain include having them count against MAX_MODELS, having them count against MAX_EDICTS, and having to have physics run on them on the server.

Reasons in favour include accelerating visibility calculations and producing a much simpler BSP tree (which gives perf gains elsewhere too).

Look on this as an intermediate step. The longer term plan to take those func_wall entities, merge them back into the world, convert them to detail brushes and produce a BSP that draws them as part of the worldmodel. The func_wall'ing of entities is just step one along the way to that, and has the bonus that it will still work even if the longer term plan doesn't work out so good. 
The 65536 vertex limit is one that's already been hit in an RMQ map - even without any func_wall'ing.

The most obvious solution is to take the standard BSP 29 spec, convert some of the data from unsigned short to unsigned int, and produce a new BSP format that doesn't have those limits. It would have the bonus of keeping the map format identical to before, but would require tools work as well as engine work to support it, and would obviously need buy-in from outside of the RMQ team. 
It's definitely intended that innovations made during the creation of Remake Quake should benefit everybody.

It makes sense to look at what other people need or want. Because we got quite a bit of dev power in one spot here, and there is a bit of networking going on as well. That gives us a bit of leverage to do "uncommon things".

I guess if an extended BSP format (ie limits removed, "detail brushes") would be used outside of RMQ, that'd be all the better. Then we might as well do it right (TM).

Terrain generator not Quake: I dunno, I think it remains to be seen. :-E 
Ultimately all that a terrain generator would do is build standard brushes to put into the same standard .map file to be processed by QBSP/etc in the standard way; no different from any map editor in other words.

One must always remember that unless explicitly stated, any talk of new stuff should always be read as if "...and it will work just the same way with standard tools" was appended to the end. 
A terrain generator simply allows us to build large outdoor areas in a more intuitive and user friendly way than "create 5000 triangles; then start using vertex manipulation..."

Even thinking of that makes me sick. Something like this looks like a really good idea at this point: 
It exists. Rather old mac-only commandline tool.

I'd offer my tech support for Mac RMQ but I know zero about coding and compiling. 
New BSP And Other Tech 
Whilst working on my own maps scale rather than detail has become the main thing that I enjoy, which is a shame because of how poor the engine is for it. I really like the feeling of the world you're in being huge, and that the part you are exploring is only a piece of a giant world (even if you never *actually* get to it), a feeling that I got from Necro's latest map and that fantastic mountain range.

So I was wondering who else would think that a great edition to a new Quake map format (or whatever is involved to make it work) would be 3D sky boxes. Preferably something like Half-Life 2's where the skybox is scaled up to allow a smaller area to appear massive. 
Watch This Space 
If You Enjoy Massive Maps, 
try putting Q3A maps in dpmod, and run them in dpmod using darkplaces and "deathmatch 7". You sort of get a dmsp experience with this setting, but playing in all those gorgeous Q3A maps. 
Fair Enough 
In Fact 
Engine developments aside, I've taken on board some of the discussion over my past few func visits and yeah, the immersion is better when you're a speck in a large world, making your way through one part.

It can lose the focus a bit though, for Quake. 
RMQ's Episode 1 50% Layout Complete 
You seriously calling a map Necrophilia? :p 
Yeah :-) 
I mean, we all like Quake a lot but, ew. 
Cool update GB! Those screens look great. You could always take the best bits of the other base map you did and merge it with one of the others. not sure what though, e1m2 wouldn't make sense and e1m1 doesn't need it. It would make e1m1 suitably epic though.

Looks like rmq is a good few years away yet though :( 
We Indulge Ourselves Too Much 
Or too little. 
I'm glad to see this project is still moving forward. Are you guys considering releasing one episode at a time? Otherwise I fear it will be 2020 before we see this thing.

Also, what do you consider "layout complete?" does that include brush detailing, lighting, texturing? 
We'll be changing our release format to make things more streamlined and to work on a easier to handle scale. It will also mean more releases, albeit smaller ones.

Thanks for the interest. 
Layout Complete 
100% layout complete I consider this: all areas actually exist as brushwork, not just as plan, and the map can be "played" from the start to the end along the intended route.

My calculation includes basic brush detailing, lighting etc. because I do these things as I go (other people do it differently). The %ages really mean "map roughly finished to this degree".

e1m6rq is layout complete according to the definition above, but the %age is only 90-95 because I subtracted some amount for needed rework, which might include switching rooms around, joining rooms, changing lighting, adding some secrets etc.

The calculation does not contain the creation of additional props etc. If we did the same calculation for the entire project, we'd have to figure in many more things and we'd probably not be at 50%.

Especially things like voice acting, rigging and animation proceed at a really slow rate, and implementing features to the engine is also really hard work and not always just quickly done.

The map layout is so important because coming up with stuff and creating the basic brushwork of the levels is the hardest and most important part of the level design. It's also what took me longest to get reasonably good at. I tended to overthink stuff in the past before committing to brushwork. But once it actually exists (even if it's just orange cubes), it can be tweaked. Making it exist is the main challenge. 
My calculation includes basic brush detailing, lighting etc. because I do these things as I go (other people do it differently)

I've got approaching a dozen or so nearly complete layouts with ten to twenty minutes of gameplay and no graphical detailing :(

I'm more and more thinking of just releasing my maps as collections of as-bug-free-as-possible speedmaps cause I more and more can't be arsed with making levels pretty. It's not what I enjoy at all, even though I like the idea of it, and I'm impressed by what you can all do with brush work, but man is it just infuriating for me. So for me layout complete has nothing to do with actual geometry.

I'm curious to know how others mix the two as well. How many people plan stuff out on paper or in the editor extensively before beginning the proper architecture, vs your approach of building the layout and architecture as you go. 
just give them to someone else to detail.

Plenty of people here dont like the layout side of things but like detailing. 
That sounds a lot like me - I have little patience for lighting or making cool looking stuff, but spend a long time moving monsters about and completely reworking the flow of levels almost on a whim.

It can be cathartic though to chill out and texture a wall, or make textures for it, or build a skylight or temple.

When building I box things out fairly quickly with a loose idea of the gameplay I want, making mental notes of what goes where whilst I build.

Long term projects like RMQ are trickier - like Gb, I've got episode 3 layout complete (apart from the secret map) but I suspect I'll be rebuilding each map about 70% just because they're not up to quality.

I find that a series of strong ideas can make even the most visually simplistic maps work great. Then the simplicity becomes part of its style.

If the detail that it does has and texture choices are clever, then even better. 
Getting better at blocking out required a conscious effort on my part, several times over using different methods (dev textures, boxing map and just focusing on the layout, using endlessly tiling texture and just building). I always admired how quickly ijed could just plop down a layout. Most of episode 3 seemed to appear really quickly, while I was still doodling.

Practically everybody in RMQ is better at this than me - ijed, Ricky, rj, digs, probably Lardarse as well. :-)

Doing details and lighting as you go has drawbacks (it might look as if you're not producing much), but it also has its pluses:

- you establish a theme for details that you can re-use and vary later, instantly providing a high level of detail (and basic lighting) for new areas, instead of sitting and staring at a blank layout, having to detail it "somehow"

- you might come up with unusual things while detailing that later help to lend identity to your level

- you're forced to dedicate some time to coding and making assets, or even talking to engine coders, even recruiting help, which is ultimately good for everybody on the team

Basically you're slower when you plan and detail as you go, but you save a lot of time later because your theme is fully developed, and your technical base (mod) expands earlier than it otherwise would. 
That's True 
But it depends on if you prefer top down or bottom up design.

Work in teams (with multiple people on the same level) I think top down is better - getting the big pieces in place first.

Bottom up is better when working on your own on a level, since you have a clear idea of what you're making. 
Yeah, I know that's how it's usually done. We can try that in some of the E4 maps.

LA and I worked pretty effectively on that chainmap we started. Ep. 1 also uses his spirals and the "cubeamid" which he built for me (I suck at maths), and both of the boss fights are actually largely designed by Supa.

Abusing func for our rambling again. Let's discuss collaboration at the trac. 
This discussion reminds me of those sexy development textures you occasionally see in HL2/CS-S maps. Searching for a picture yielded this tutorial about blocking things in.

This guy seemed to be making a huge outdoor Counter-Strike map, so naturally large cubes for buildings works great for him. But the idea may apply to quake in spirit. You can free yourself from staring at that infernal blank canvas very quickly with this method. 
Already Done 
of all the threads the bot could have posted on... 
Can you guys finish the final boss of Zer so we can finally fight the thing? 
that would be so awesome. i'd use him in the e2 secret level if no-one else wanted to! 
That would be ten kinds of awesome. I think I've said here before how it annoyed me that he was only used in a cutscene. Big upside-down shub that he is. 
Don't Do It 
Don't Listen To Him! 
RemakeReservoirDogs will now feature more locations, which wasn't possible with the original's small budget, and will now include the unfinished heist scene. 
I think it's more like Predators finally showing Hanzo fighting the Predator in H2H, instead of Billy who died like a bitch 
i can see why people would have reservations about redoing zer with an end battle, because that would detract from part of what zer fundamentally was. nonetheless i'd still love to see him finished up and used in another mod (it probably won't be this one though) 
This'll probably sound really blasphemous, but am I the only Quake fan in the world that didn't really like Zerst�rer?

I mean, I get that it was about the oppressive atmosphere and stuff, but it just didn't do it for me. I played through the first couple maps before getting bored, really didn't enjoy the new weapons or the combat at all, and did some level-hopping to see if it got any more interesting. Eventually I fired up the final map, encountered the big bad boss, and thought "Cool! I get to fight THAT?", and then the player is killed in a cutscene and it just... ends? And I'm like "...what. That's it?", I thought maybe I had missed something as I just loaded the map from the console, but nope.

So glad I didn't play through it from the beginning only to get such an anticlimatic, shitty ending.

Maybe it's just me who plays Quake solely for the action, and not story or atmosphere... eh, whatever. 
Yep, That Is Blasphemy. 
you fucking heretic.

Did you at least play "True Love Waits?" 
Couldn't Remember 
But I found a playthrough of it on Youtube. Nope, but it actually looks somewhat decent, so maybe I should have given it more of a chance.

Still, it didn't manage to catch my interest in any way, and it doesn't help that the levels look really bland. Just not my cup of tea I guess. 
Someone should have turned the ZerDM maps into a second SP episode. 
...get to it then :P 
Alas, No Map Sources. 
Besides, no one seemed to care about DMC3 so it would probably be a wasted effort. 
I Thought DMC3 Was Great! 
But I will replay it just to make sure... 
Also Thought DMC3 Was Great! 
of course it's great. Don't be silly. 
Just played dmc3 for the first time - it rocked negke! Especially the last level with shubby. I didn't mind that these were originally dm levels at all, it was still fun as fuck. Probably helps that i've never seen any of them before, although I might have loaded lun's one up just for a quick gander.

I'd love to see a dmc4. I've never played the zer dm maps, but i'm assuming they probably aren't up to todays standards anyway? I'd rather see a dmc4 using more modern dm maps, or at least awesome looking ones from the past. 
I would prefer bigger dm maps converted so levels arent over so quickly and there is time to establish a sense of place. Maybe efdm12 size. 
yeah i thought that as well nitin, get some bigger dm maps 
one was perfect although I realise that was haevily modified/added to and involved much more work. 
This'll probably sound really blasphemous, but am I the only Quake fan in the world that didn't really like Zerst�rer?

i agree, some levels look uninspired at least , z1m3, z1m4(grind something) z1m2(watta f.?) are the weakest in term of level design (imho)

i remember there were preview with a little map by killme 
Re: 568 
maybe he could combine multiple DM maps with the same texture theme into a single larger map? 
this might not be the right place for it, but can I get access to the bsp2-supporting compilers and version of the RMQ engine? Or rather when can I get access to this, I REALLY suspect that bsp2 will be necessary for the map I'm working on now. Are you guys going to at least release this stuff alongside the new demo? When's that out anyway ;)

I've always thought most of the maps in Zer are not that great, but the graveyard map was good, True Love Waits ruled, and the story/ending was good. It's more about the coherence of the pack as a whole. 
You Mean The Coherence... 
...that consists of a load of completely random items and maps cobbled together with the only thing in common being the gloomy black sky??

Ny Blasfemishm 
I hate that argueing about quake levels that were/are will not be good enough, as it makes no sense in the time they were made other standards counted than nowadays ...

I was already glad I could snatch a level from the net and play it!

It was in the time of the bad quake levels new ugly layout apeared and parasites didn't ask your pardon to enter their godnow how level

hm, sorry for that. 
It was in the time of the bad quake levels new ugly layout apeared and parasites didn't ask your pardon to enter their godnow how level

What's this supposed to mean?? 
Madfox Is A Madfox Is A Madfox Is A Madfox. 
I Said 
sorry for that already, so it wasn't ment to someone.
just overread my blashphemy as my thought to the subject itself.

Is that blashphemy? 
No, I Meant 
What does it mean, as in, I genuinely didn't understand it at all. Sorry for the confusion! 
Re: Tronyn, BSP2 & Demo Question 
Tronyn: I believe MH wants to put off an official release because of the format's unfinished / may-change-if-necessary nature. That means there could be conflicting versions very quickly, in the worst case.

However, it is probably beneficial to have more people use BSP2, simply to see if the limits are high enough :-P I know that at least Ajay over at i3d has a map that breaks the old BSP format, and maybe Necros will benefit from this as well.

MH is the one who eventually calls the shots on this issue though. Then again, MH is probably still glued to the screen playing Rage ;-)

Basically, everyone who uses BSP2 at this time must understand that it isn't final and it would probably be a good idea to release your map sources for any BSP2-using project (so it can be recompiled should the format change later).

I trust Louis e-mailed you the stuff now? That's not to say you couldn't simply get it from the SVN, of course. ^^ However, that's an effingly huge download and requires SVN, so you might prefer a zip file. XD

Anything about any demos being released anytime is sort of depending on if anything gets to any presentable level. It's also debatable if the demo format still makes sense when there is an SVN repo. Needless to say, anything from any SVN might break without warning at any time, of course, while a demo release would hopefully - ideally - be a lot more tested and polished and bear a stamp saying "teh official".

I believe some of ijed's maps are closest to being presentable right now (e3m3rq?), but we're in the middle of a dev cycle atm. e1m2rq was close, but I've since decided to brutally rip the lid off and really test BSP2, so I won't have something to show for a while longer. Ricky's e2m1rq might be another candidate, but IIRC he said he wanted to add more details still.

Our dev cycle ends shortly before Xmas, so it's unlikely that any release is made before then. There was a little downtime recently due to the move to and everyone playing games instead of slaving properly. ;-)

As for new Zer content, yes please! I must admit that I don't think RMQ is the right platform for it though. However a dedicated modder could probably create an updated Zer SDK by ripping and porting code from RMQ and maybe Drake. For example the stuff from RMQ's proto-shalrath (magic system) could be backported to the zer troglodyte eventually. Open source is a good thing.

>>> RMQ is intended to be fair game to borrow stuff from for other mods. We borrowed from others ourselves. Crossbreeding between mods is healthy for the community - it used to be done all the time. Please help yourselves to the goods.<<< 
Ive been away for a week and am just on my way back now. I hope to have multiple betas ready for this xmas deadline. As for BSP2 its functional for now, releasing a test version is fine by me.

Will try and get you a version tonight. 
Anyone else want a look at the tools?

I'm reluctant to post them officially for now, but a couple of betatesters would help, in preparation for the xmas deadline. 
The Y-Axis for rotation appears to be reversed in RMQe?

ie: in all engines except RMQe, an increase in .angles_y yields a clockwise motion when looking up whereas the same in RMQe produces a counterclockwise motion.
or am I hallucinating? 
No You're Not :P 
iirc someone on the rmq team said they were aware of it. 
oh never mind, it's fixed in the new version.
also, dynamic lights work on bmodels that have moved off the origin, awesome! 
Dynamic Lights Work On Bmodels That Have Moved Off The Origin 
That was a small-ish thing that was easy to do and I felt it was important enough to get right. It ended up as maybe 5 lines of code, and should probably be tutorialized for I3D sometime. 
Please Do 
is vectoangles() somehow returning lower precision angles than the rest of the engine? seems like when i use that, i get the old style jerky movement. 
Shouldn't be, nothing specific changed in relation to it. 
ok, i'll look into it more then. for some reason, one of my rotaters looks like it's not benefiting from the new angles precision while other rotaters are and only in RMQe. 
That's odd. If you're happy to send me a test map I can look into it engine-side too. 
not to be a dork, but are you sure vectoangles is returning higher precision angles?
a quick bprint of angles from a vectoangles call shows that rmqe is rounding them to the nearest whole number (like QS does) while DP/QBism is returning decimals. 
Not To Be A Dork, But.... 
You're actually right, it is casting them to int. That's original code too - why on earth was it originally done that way? Nasty; OK, going on the "fix list" immediately. 
Crossposting Just Fyi 
RMQe, like QS and FQ doesn't seem to flush sound names between maps.

If you load up one map with many sounds and then load up another map with many sounds, the engine will crash with "S_FindName: out of sfx_t"

just in case you miss this in the other thread. :) 
So some people were asking for an archive of all the RMQ stuff.

Here it is:

I didn't post this before because I forgot it still existed :/

It contains most of the latest stuff - we did migrate, but the majority of the work should remain intact on Icculus.

Maybe it can be of use to someone. 
who wanted to send you an email on the right adress for instance. 
I forgot this backup existed until Negke forwarded me a tweet by Eric. 
Check out some of the maps (complete with source, bsp lit etc).

Rj did some amazing stuff, digs has a massive industrial complex but without gameplay, Ricky had something similar, the DM maps are pretty complete (including a DM9 rebuild) and there's a tonne of other stuff to chew on.

Plenty of scraps as well. 
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