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APSP2 - Plumbers Don't Wear Ties (But They Do Carry Shotguns)
I finally released my Base Pack map. It's a bit late, but at least I managed to finish it after all this time :)

I wanted to encourage exploratory gameplay a little with this, so be prepared to search around a bit to find items and sometimes you way through the map.

The map requires Quoth 2.1 (available here: ) and FitzQuake 0.80 is STRONGLY recommended, regardless of your usual engine.

Download: (3,108kb)


Very slighty more info:
Base Pack Map... Hhhmmmmm 
... it is never too late ;) I'll play it ASAP, as the screenshots are "tasty" :) 
Congrats On The Release MR Than 
Really really really sexy map!

Download this NOW! 
I just had a crate-gasm.

Very impressive map. I could play it a dozen times and the layout would still confuse me. Not sure what the ending was about although the exit was nice. 
Nice Story 
it really explains why a person would run around their own base, killing everything.... 
First Run Demo (very Boring)

fantastic level, but as shambler said, layout is very confusing :), one of the best sp base levels ever. couldn't complete it, cos of fecking eliminators :( 
Looks nice, will give it a whirl. :)

(PS: Is there any place to get your texturepack for q3? (than_industrial) Been looking all over the place) 
It Owns. 
Thanks than.

First run, 45 mins boring, died right before the end. 
Mr Czg 
that demo is 200mb according to my system. is that a bug or a new world record? 
It's 45 Mins Of Me Running In Circles And Shooting All The Walls. 
Played On Skill2 
Quoth enforcers moped the floor with me.

Other than that I liked it a lot. Didn't care much for the crates (sorry guys :() but it looked very sexy anyway. Loved all the little details.

(spoiler) The Edie ambush was very well done, as was the ending. Very refreshing to see an ending that isn't about buttoning Chthon to death :p

Looking forward apsp3! 
Oh And 
The story is Oscar worthy. 
Oh ... my .... god. Holy shit! That was fucking epic! Well worth the wait. It will be hard for anyone to top this in 2009 and it's only Jan!

I don't have the words, dude, incredible work! But I'll try...

What a level. The texturing was jaw droppingly well done. I loved the floating crates and the generally flooded nature of the place. I've never seen that done so well before.

The progression was good (I got lost a few times or else I'd say great), the mood was pitch perfect and the details - just packed into every square inch!

I didn't record a demo because I'm horrible at these exploratory type maps and my demo would be very long and pretty dull.

I was sort of expecting to have to sacrifice myself to kill the creature at the end. It was setting for it - telling me to get the cells and then the lightning gun. I thought for sure I was going to discharge into the water. But it was cool anyway! Definitely a nice change from the standard map.

Thanks a ton for this amazing piece of work. I'm still amazed.

I've gotta ask ... how long does that take to VIS? It must be a beast. 
Didn't anyone tell me that christmas was postponed this year?

Can't play just yet. And I know of no smiley for the expression. 
Just started to play this nice when new Q1 stuff hits unexpectedly! This is really really sweet...and I haven't even gotten very far in addition to the fact that I've never been a great base style fan. Excellent work than..I know the funs only just begun. 
willem: vis was something like 6 minutes or so, with bsp and light both taking 25 seconds each. It was pretty quick to compile, mainly because pretty much all the detail is done with funcs and the areas are quite small scale.

I was a bit worried some people would be confused by the layout and the ending, but I really didn't want to make things too obvious and "hid" a lot of ammo and health for people to find if they explore in order to encourage exploration. It was annoying how difficult judging how other people would react to things like the layout and ending when I was so used to the level myself :/

Anyway, thanks for the comments and demos :) 
Great Map 
Not much to add to what has already been said. I'm really impressed. I recorded a first run demo here:

I got very lost after I disabled the silver force fields, ran around the map for quite a while and finally found the exit, or at least got close to it. I died though. Not sure you want to watch all that... it's pretty pathetic ;-). 
"I got very lost after I disabled the silver force fields, ran around the map for quite a while and finally found the exit, or at least got close to it."

Yep, that was where I got the most lost as well. I was -this- close to noclip'ing to look around when i stumbled into the right area. :)

"vis was something like 6 minutes or so, with bsp and light both taking 25 seconds each. It was pretty quick to compile, mainly because pretty much all the detail is done with funcs and the areas are quite small scale. "

Well, there you go. That's what I've been saying all this time. A properly designed map can be large, detailed and doesn't need to take 2 weeks to VIS. Nice work! 
Its Got Good Vis-blocking 
I think that that's probably the biggest factor to reducing vis times - proper vis-blocking. Then you can have all of the detail the engine can handle, and it still wont take forever. The worst type of map for vis-times is a complete sand box scenarion, JPL's CDA map (which took 50 days apparently) is just that.... 
Story Is Hilarious 
cant wait to play the map, just waiting for my replacement gfx card. 

Sure, but I guess my point was more that this map impressed me way more than any wide open map ever has - and it takes less than 7 minutes to compile. Goes to show that you don't need to break the engine to make a killer level. :) 
So There Are Two Exits? 
and how to get eddie's exit? or this is dm related? great map than congrats. i'll try to play it on higher skill settings 
Errr Just One Thing. 
How do you defeat the finish, especially if you retreated before collecting the RA and then it disappears? 
You Load The Savegame And Try Again ;) 
Shambler: There are a lot of cells and a lightning gun, right? There are lots of crates to hide behind too, and although it might take a little while to figure out how best to get around the room, it's perfectly doable. However, I should perhaps have taken Negke's advice and made it a bit easier, as it's pretty hard on nightmare unless you know the optimal route, and even then there is a good chance you will get smashed to pieces.

Anyway, once you have the lg and a reasonable number of cells you should be able to find your way to a safe spot to fire from, although it may not be easy to spot when you are frantically trying not to die.

In coop you could probably just sacrifice yourself to make it easier on a buddy and discharge all your cells ;)

Spy: There is only one exit. The edie encounter is just something that happens some way into the map. 
Than Ok I See 
I made a demo for anyone interested. skill 3, 100% kills & secrets.

Whilst making the demo I noticed a few bugs from last minute changes I made to the map that I didn't check thoroughly, so there are a few extra health packs, including one clipping through a nail pack and a couple of non-rotten healths. GRR, so annoying. 
Hmmm K. 
When I played it, the end room was, errr, flooded... 
"When I played it, the end room was, errr, flooded..."

That doesn't invalidate anything that than said. :) Find a dry spot to shoot from. 
Do you play with autoaim or something? 
sv_aim 2, non-inverted, no crosshair. The way it is meant to be played ;)

If you were watching the demo and thought I was too accurate, it's just because I know where everthing is. 
A Little Bit Late But 
here is my skill 3 demo/ 22min. 101/102 kills
5/8 secrets 
What does "sv_aim 2" do to the aiming? 
disables any auto-aiming (normally Quake does some vertical help). Anything above 1 disables if I recall correctly.

Every \m/ true \m/ Quaker has sv_aim 666 in his config. ;) 
Oh OK, I usually just go with 1.0. :P 
Hawter than fizzy peach drink. Will d/l it when I get home. And find my Quake 'CD'... 
In the demo it seems that you are often aiming above an enemy but still hit it with the shotty. That's odd. 
Oh, I get it now. Bit of an odd one that. Very easy if you get it right and very hard if you don't. 
How the fuck do I get to the MH that's partway down the main lift shaft?

The interconnectivity and compactness of this map is astounding. It makes the best Sadlark maps seem like sprawling messes. 
"How the fuck do I get to the MH that's partway down the main lift shaft? "

I never got that either. Not sure what it wanted me to do there. 
Holy Cow 
Waht to say about this level except it is awesome. Architecturally this one of the better map I've ever saw.

Gameplay is also very good, while I would have fill the area with more monsters in some areas... though.. However, ammo/monster/health balance is good, while I found the map quite easy...

Also, maybe the ambience could have been improved with some custom sounds, but with this foggy effect: it is very good already !

Only complain: I've been lost for a while before finding the way to the vermis... at least I had time to visit the map ;)

Very good release: I wanna play more ! go map 
What To Say 
that someone hasn't already said?

Impressive on every count.

Maybe I'm the only one who loved the gameplay as all the others factors.
For example the fights were so much fun! Fighting the soldier guys in these tight halls was challenging. I found my self taking cover. In quake. You really made it right. 
One Thing 
There is something that has not been honored yet. The fantastic sounds (JPL, play with the soundtrack ;) ). The cdtrack fits the map so well. There are just the right ambience sounds on just the right places. And the monsters feel totally in place.

I have no yet finished it, searching for the progression after the silver key & very low on health.

Since this, as it's the first map this year, simply cannot be the best map of this year just yet, there's got to be something so fricking amazing later in the year my yaw will fall off and start fellatio or what? ;) Well, it will be damn damn hard to top this. FHSFNSFHSFNNG! 
Way to take the wind out of everyone's sails this year, ASSHOLE! :) 

Jaw, UP! You nasty thing. 
I found this too convoluted to enjoy: my play time was a ridiculous 73:01, and you can bet I wasn't having any fun for the last forty minutes of that. The cheap boss fight didn't help. Was I *really* meant to stand in one place holding mouse1 to win the level?

Visually and architecturally the entire level is brilliant, possibly the most cohesive and structurally clever quake map I've seen. The gameplay, though, doesn't work for me. 
Finished, loved it. Such atmosphere.
I am not sure these are all the demos, but hey. 
you rock beyond reality.
this is the best level i ever played!
thanks for quality quake experience, atmosphere, balance and end boss. it was perfect!

thou art rock! 
I'm with you on the gameplay thing, it was good, and suited the map well. Almost every enemy counted in it, which is a welcome change of pace from horde combat. Felt like it was supposed to in a base like that. I like the RL/GL as well, much better choice than SNG, the limited rockets meant you could use it to take the sting out of situations a bit, but couldn't be wasteful. 
it should have been very slightly harder, but I forgot to flag a couple of items dm only and didn't notice until after release :( Still, it didn't ruin it or anything.

Again, thanks for the comments. Just to let you guys know, Ricky has a really big map that is of a high quality in beta, so maybe this will be topped very quickly :) 
Dunno Like Mate 
your map is classic quake gold. even though its quoth! I just think that the brushwork is phenomenal. Some of the textures I dont know where they came from. Did you make any of these yourself Than? Like the one on the edie crates, and theres one animated texture behind where the player starts, it has alternate flashing red lights at the bottom. There are others I dont remember seein anywhere else too. Im just asking cause I wanna use them! 
most are standard idbase textures or textures modified by other people (mostly Biff and Ray I think), although I made a few myself for this map, such as the window surrounds and the edie crates.

I'll upload the wad I used when I get chance, but until then feel free to rip the textures from this map and use them in your own. There are a few more I didn't use, but most are in the map I think. 
WOW!!! best looking level ever. gameplay was trully unquake, felt more like Half Life1 of System Shock2. was really tough to navigate for the first time, but visuals were so stunning (that flooded train with crates) that it was completely fun to rumble around. it would be nice to have crates on the water-line float a bit though, you know, few pixels up and down, slight movement. I had idea to create similar large flooded areas for my own quake level but it never happened (lazyness). final boss was great too. 45mins, 3/8 secrets. overally absolut OWNAGE!!! 
Flooded train was ace.

This was definitely in the "convincing alternate reality" genre, it's the way forward I reckon. 
Boner Shorts. 
Jaromir83 wrote: "it would be nice to have crates on the water-line float a bit though, you know, few pixels up and down, slight movement." I belive this movement could be player triggered, if player jumps/mounts on a crate floating on water, it would move slightly up'n'down for a while (5secs?, few waypoints placed within crate). 
it would use a lot of edicts I think, although it is possible. But there are a lot of crates in the level. And it really wouldn't add that much to the experience.

Interesting idea though! 
It would look very artificial without acceleration though. 
That would take some minimal QuakeC work though and he already said that most of them are func_'s already. Not to take away from an amazing level though. It great without that - however, that WAS one thought I had while running around.

Of course, that might mess with collision somewhat. Not sure. 
Sorry you didn't enjoyed it, you are missing something and I think it's very quake, contrary to what many of you said, even if I see that quakeish or not every one had fun.

RickyT23: are you working on a new map? can't wait to play it. 

Not much more to say, except thet you're one funny mutha, Than. Best storyline ever.

Did a skill 3, 100% secrets and monsters demo. 23 mins or so... if anyone's interested.
My usual suckage is bitterly improved on this one, though. I played through the level while at home on antibiotics...

Oh, and the boss fight was perfect, too. Hardly beatable if you did not find the safe spot, but beatable... Flooded Vermis is ace! 
F*ckin' O! 
This is the most atmospheric Quake release I have played in a looong time. Everything was top notch: gameplay, texturing, and architecture, even despite your "DM only" woes (nice demo, BTW). The flooded areas really kept the player moving and maintained a perfect level of anxiety throughout. This is one release that everybody should play!

Great work, Than! You've outdone yourself! 
again, great gameplay, no hordes, every single enemy counted instead. incredible brushwork/texturing/lighting. I have seen detailed maps before, but this one was so extensive at the same time! you must have been working on it for years Than. first run a bit confusing, due to complex layout, every other much easier, still fun to listen to some moody ambient NIN tracks while accidentally lost on the way from one area to another.

+I nearly forgot: story. may I call you new Shakespear, Than? 
First Run, 
I thought the game play became tedious so I quit after 15 to 20 minutes of playing. I must have been in a bad mod and recognizing that fact I waited a few days to replay it. Second run through, I freakin' loved it.

Now, to learn to semi-speed run it, send it to video, put a 5 minute clip up on youtube and amaze a lot of people who assume a game they haven't touched in ten years would have to look like shit now. 
Agree with what most have said on top notch brushwork, texturing etc that you would expect from someone who made dm3rmx. The slow paced gameplay was ok but could have done with some more threatening moments such as shamblers (Edies need to move faster, they are pussies with the slightest amount of cover). Even on skill 3 my health only dropped below 20 about once before the boss. The rather easy RL secret maybe influences the gameplay too much, an early GL would have been more balanced. I found the boss fight somewhat annoying, but this was mainly because I was getting low framerates. Far more irritating was the stupid jumping in the crate puzzle. Why the useless hint about a 'ladder room'?
So in conclusion, although I didn't enjoy it as much as others apparently did and there are other maps that I prefer with the same theme and gameplay style, the technical build quality and design are good enough to let the map stand out on these points alone. 
Forgot To Metion This Before But.. 
The one image of a wall of flame coming at you down a vent from a pyro enforcer should be enough to make this map a Mandatory Quake Experience (TM). 
Great map again than. Everything was said already. I must say I like the quoth base mosters a lot and you have used each of them very well in this map. All encounters were a challenge. The flooded level looks great.
I was also lost after I have reached the silver key area. I felt that I should go to the red armor area but I couldn't find it.
First time ever that I have managed to kill vermis during first play of a map. I didn't even have to use the LG.
Here is my demo on skill 2. Really enjoyed everything apart from the time when I was lost.
I have played in joequake-gl and everything was fine apart from the lack of fog. I won't use fitz untill I know how to disable the muzzle flash and gun kick. 
Oh Boy! 
Yet another fantastic than map!
Brushwork was really good, as was lighting.
Progress was not that easy, didn't always know where to go but got lost more than once! 8-)

Now who dares to release another basemap for the next couple of months? I know I don't! 
Haha, yeah, that's the thing ... this map is awesome but it sort of puts a hold on base maps for awhile. :P But that's not a bad thng, really. A killer map is such a great thing to see in a 10 year old game! 
Greatest Base Map Ever? 
I loved it, combat had that same sort of unquakey feel like distrans' last level but once you adjusted, it was heaps of fun.

brsuhwork ,texturing etc have been already praised but lighting was top notch too.

The underwater sections were phenomenally done! 
I Am Intimidated ... 
... by your skills, than. this is the perfect base map. from now on one can do different, but one cannot do better!
i love the looks and the atmosphere of this one. gameplay is fine, too. =) 
Well No. 
Because this is just one sort of base map. Inside, compact, flooded, id-style textures. No outdoor bits, no real walkways, bridges, towers, no large scale scenes, no terrain, not so much 3D action, not many non-base monsters. There's plenty of potential in other base directions... 
Would "Solid" Be A Good Adjective For A Map With This Much Water? 
Definitely a good experience. Played with DarkPlaces, enjoyed the fog, the windows, and of course, all the water... Something thats felt rather unexplored in Quake maps since e1m4. I was surprised to see the lack of bobbing crates, since Q2 did it fairly decently just using trains. It would be fun to see a map like this partially redone, making all of the crates with models and Twig physics so they bob and float about, defined by mass.

The map unfortunately, was a bit empty (played on Normal, since thats what I think of my skill level as) without having a 'desolate' feel like the id base maps, it was more so empty than desolate. I'd like to see more maps that have the same monster count, but the monster and item choices making for the difficulty. Perhaps fewer grunts, more enforcers from Easy to Normal for example. Speaking of difficulty, the lowest my health ever went was 76 which was a bit disappointing, maybe I should have gone for hard (and that drop to 76 was an accidental brushing against a crate in the water, just high enough, that my guy tried to do the 'boost out of water' bit, and got smacked in the face with a grunt rocket). Actually the most memorable fights came from Bob and the Scrags. The combat was a little too 2d most of the time, and the Edie was able to escape from his crate, but kept hopping right back into it, so he turned out to be completely painless, just a shell sink.

I enjoyed the sheer amount of detail, without any of the scenes ever feeling cluttered (I'm looking at you UT2k3 and onward) and no significant drops in framerate.

I loved the way the map reconnected on itself, but I was disappointed with the exploration, it was still linear, just if I backtracked, I could now more easily get lost by the connectivity. I'd love to see a map like this, with at least 2 or 3 situations that can be approached and solved from literally different angles and applications. The megahealth crate got me all excited, but didn't go anywhere (shoving me underwater and confining me like Houdini with lots of health suggested that you were going to fuck with me - the fucking with me consisted in letting me down and giving me a few grunts to pop after an uneventful crate delivery).

Lastly, the boss was cool, but... easy. I didn't grab the RA, and didn't notice the lightning gun until after I killed it... The 'dry spot' was very apparent to me, and I was completely invulnerable in there. I fired off my rockets, then my nailgun, and that was it. Seriously, I noticed the broken window and latter immediately, and decided to go for it... I think a good solution to this, would be to break the floor in the 'dry spot' into a series of brushes, each being breakable brushes, so as the boss fires up at you, it breaks apart the floor, and you gradually lose cover - so it exists as an advantage, and a chance to use the lightning gun, but it doesn't let you get away with simply chipping away at the boss.

I was REALLY hoping for some good gameplay in the long sloped flooded shaft, which looked very cool, but sadly nothing seems to have been done with it, other than making it a timed threat to reach another section of the map.

Definitely a great map, lots of impressive work in it, but the fact that it came so close to so much more coolness, and backed down from those moments, multiple times, kind of hurts it for me.

BTW, 51:03, 84/84, 5/8 - A good 10 minutes of that time was me recombing the map for additional ammo before entering the boss arena, as I was anticipating something a bit more structured. Nonetheless, despite my criticisms, a very worthy addition to the Quake single player timeline, and particularly to the base theme (and the vastly underused water theme). 
I Must Have Found Another Spot To Fire The Lg 
because the boss could still definitely fire at me while I fired at him. 
Oh He Was Still Firing 
but it was completely ineffective, I never got nicked by even a hint of splash damage (thats a whole different meaning on a map like this!)

A few times I stepped away very briefly from the opening, but I doubt I would've been significantly hurt had I not. It was like fighting an Ogre trapped at the bottom of the staircase, when you're up top; just a suction of ammo. 
39min, 84/84, 4/8.

Yeah this is a really really great level, but at the same time I don't think it's the best base map ever. In fact, I even prefer apsp1. The build quality and detailing is great, the main elevator shaft is really well done. But I did get a bit sick of staring at those same brown textures all the time, and apart from the elevator shaft it was a little lacking in the set-piece aspect. It's not the kind of level where you think 'woooooow' and just stare at the design.

The connectivity was really good. I didn't get lost at all, but there were a few times where I wasn't sure how to progress. The damn MH in the crate stumped me, I didn't need a MH and assumed this was a secret to save for later. I didn't realise you HAD to take the MH to progress. Couple other times I was searching around but it wasn't too bad. Most people like non-linear, but I'm not one of them.

I remember at one point looking down to the final arena from earlier in the level and wondering if that's a secret area, and it would be very cool to get down there somehow. Nice way of capping the level off with the underwater boss. The gameplay was fairly well balanced, I never died or got too low on health. But at the same time there's not a lot of high paced action in this level, with the low enemy count.

Anyway awesome to see it Than! Look forward to you finishing the others :D 
Comments + Textures 
For whoever complemented the modified textures before, here is the wad I used, which contains all the idbase textures + most of those used in other maps (by NotoriousRay, Biff and Gibbie I think) along with those I made for this map.

Anyway, regarding comments, I kind of agree with those of you who were a bit more critical of the gameplay. Whilst I think I made a pretty decent level, I think it could have been better. I tried to take tester opinions into account, but perhaps I worried too much about lack of health + ammo in previous builds and added too much and made it a bit too easy on hard.

Also, some of the encounters are a little bit boring because I chose to focus on base only monsters and not use any (aside from scrags and vermis) other monster types. I knew about some of the problems with the edie fight, but chose to leave it because I wanted to use edie and there wasn't really anywhere else to put him. The vermis fight was kind of hit and miss. I really enjoyed ducking and diving around the crates to collect cells, but it was hard to balance the level so that there would be very little other ammo available and force the player to grab the lg and cells before going above vermis to kill it. Also, vermis doesn't attack the player when the player is above the water and just keeps firing at the last point it saw the player, which kind of works for the ducking in and out part, but maybe makes killing it too boring and unsatisfying - especially if one didn't actually need to get the lg.

One thing I was thinking about doing was using quoth coop flags to make a super hard coop mode using more of the id monsters such as shamblers and vores to toughen the gameplay up. However, by the time I had got the regular gameplay in with skill settings I was so fed up of working on the map I just decided to release it. In retrospect I should probably have ditched the dm mode instead, since it is a shit token gesture to dm players, and I know that it probably isn't much fun and nobody will bother to play it :/

Anyway, thanks for all the comments, both positive and negative. I shall try and make my next map a bit tougher and take the gameplay into three dimensions a little more than with this one :) 
I think there will be another base release fairly soon, but with very different gameplay and scale to this...

eh, Ricky ;) 
" In retrospect I should probably have ditched the dm mode instead, since it is a shit token gesture to dm players, and I know that it probably isn't much fun and nobody will bother to play it :/ "

I had that same thought the first time I read that you had DM support in here. That's way too much work for a community this small, IMO. Nobody will play a single player map in DM. They barely did when Quake first came out. :) 
If you ever happen to make a tougher Coop mode, be sure to remove the LG from the end :) 
Thanks For The Textures (guys) 
There are many there which I have never seen before! I like the porn one :P 
I shouldn�t comment people maps that don�t make comments in others works, but i will put a short one!

Brushwork and layout amazing(brilliant)...

game play boring and frustrating...

another dis_sp6 nothing more!

Brushwork is a mather of time game play in professionalism 
You are a gaylord. 
Go Back To 
i�m not Trinca!

calm down madman! 
Haven't Commented In Other Threads ... 
because I haven't played that many recent releases. I have a lot of catching up to do :(

Anyway, thanks for the comments. I will try to make the next one more action packed and challenging.

That wasn't a sarcastic comment btw. Thanks. 
I found Normal quite challenging. Pretty much perfect. 
Each To His Own I Guess 
go and play Painkiller.

Seriously though I would expect a map about plumbing to be base around confined spaces, rather than open-planned horde combat. 
Nobody will play a single player map in DM

What makes you so sure? I do, for example. I also test maps in DM, instead of typing notarget. Unless I'm doing monster placement etc. of course. It's a good way to just look around the map and control traps, lighting etc.

I don't think it is very hard to add DM support.

They barely did when Quake first came out. :)

E1M2, ferrari, etc. 
OK, ALMOST nobody. 
Willem Is Right... 
...DM in SP maps is 99.999% pointless. Rubbish design for it and there's 20,000 much better custom DM maps anyway.

Spirit is also right, I thought the challenge was pretty fine on this one. 
me too, don't worry about it. i have this map and like a dozen or more maps from last year i have on my list to get to when i get time. 
48 Zips In My Unplayed Folder :( 
i haven't even played the marcher fortress or travail yet! :( 
Thought Difficulty Was Spot On For Normal 
thing is player skill varies so much around here its hard to balance. 
the gameplay IS great, don't let them influence you, I think we quakers need this kind of gameplay. It's tense and challenging, rarely fast, but the claustrophobic setup helps to create a dangerous atmosphere.

Also I love when a custom sp has dm support. Sometimes I play LAN with friends and we play dm in various sps, especially the id ones, and it's another way of playing quake dm, you can hide and camp, or you can do ambushes, much more than in a "pro-dm" map. 
I agree with you completely. gameplay was interesting, for example sniping Edie cyborg from the rl airduct secret felt almost Deus Ex.

+I like DMing in my ejm2dm level (originally SP level, part of my miniepisode called In Ovo). pace of action is very different there. 
Gameplay was great. Monster setup perfectly matches the architecture. 
than great map, love it! only looked but hope to play it soon 
rarely fast

is the one nitpick I have with maps like this or Ruined Nation. I'm not a monster player, nor have I a good resolution on this f* laptop (I think this is part of it), and most importantly, I have a super short attention span when a game is so... simplistic as Quake. Chewing through 100 Quoth enforcers with standard Quake weapons is a horror to me. I can't live without PM's DOOM shotguns patch anymore, and tbh I think Quoth should do the same, since Quoth's monsters aren't really more intelligent or something, they just have more HP (and more dangerous attacks). This slows the game down especially in a relatively cramped environment with crates etc. if the player doesn't have adequately more powerful weapons.

Veteran players and diehard Quake fanatics might welcome the upscaling of HP and damage without changing monster AI and weapons, and maybe not even notice a real slowdown.

The other nitpick (OK, I have two) is the possibility to get lost, or to explore, or the interconnectedness, or the nonlinearity or however you want to call it. This was already in dm3rmx, where quite a few people got lost, but in this map, with the water and crates, it's increased. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just personally, again, I don't have the patience. I like a well laid out main path that is relatively easy to see. Once I complete a map, I'm much more likely to go back and look for secrets.

As follows logically, I liked the gameplay in Biff's map slightly better and thus am more likely to replay that, in turn getting to know it better, which leads to even more replaying.

To put this into perspective, I like "action RPGs" or FPS-RPGs slightly better than pure FPS normally. If something is pure FPS, to me, it should be kept simple, like DOOM. Putting in more secrets isn't enough to increase the depth of a pure FPS IMO.

This is still a monster level on all other fronts, though. No doubt.

I hope you don't see this as trolling, I did try to be cohesive. 
About the combat style, I think it is objectively a good thing because it is a more specific focus and a more distinctive style of gameplay. I don't know if I like it more or less than normal hardcore action or horde combat or movement-based stuff or what-have-you, but I do like that it's different and that it has a focus... 
I do like that it's different and that it has a focus...

OK. I can see that. 
i got stuck and gave up around 48 monster kills. still waiting for a demo to be put out where i can watch how to beat it. ankh's demo died half way through

really friggin awesome map though, very inspiring! :) 
there is than's demo in this thread 
I Loved The Gameplay. 
Every second of it, but not quite as much near the very end. Enforcers were awesome and nicely placed. Less intense gameplay than in Dis_sp6, and no random "BEHIND YOU!" moments. I like horde combat but I can appreciate the time and planning involved with this much more.
Ending reminded me of the tentacles from Half Life. 
Probably Repeating Everything That Has Been Said Already 
In my view, gameplay and monster count/usage was perfect as it did create the desolate feel for me that scar3crow missed. In fact, the map reminded me very much of my early Quake experiences. Being trapped in a strange, threatening, somewhat scary, claustrophobic place with tight damp corridors and dark water everywhere. Playing with the soundtrack really reinforced this, as Spirit also pointed out. Getting lost adds to this feeling, even though I agree it can become somewhat annoying after a while if one is not into this mood. I got lost a couple of times myself - the partially submerged room with the crates seems to be a critical spot in this respect (heh). The one with the GL. After all, it's not so bad really, as long as one follows the arrows and the trail of bodies (than did a good job here - you'll see if you replay the map).
Ultimately (for me), this map is not about action and carnarge but about atmosphere, and making it more difficult would have distracted from this.

How would one go about increasing the difficulty anyway? A larger number of monsters would have felt inappropriate and out of place (when I played an alpha version of this map, it had even fewer monsters which emphasized the focus on exploration and being lost in an unfamilar environment). So the only real alternative would be to turn more of the regular monsters into Quoth enemies which would certainly increase the challenge, but also make gameplay just annoying and destroy the atmosphere or the special appeal of this map.

This has probably been discussed many times. The general skill level of Quake players has increased greatly over the years, so naturally there is a demand for an corresponding increase in challenge. Even many of the reviews at UWF, for example, use a lower monster count or too easy gameplay as a negative criterion. At first I appreciated tougher maps myself (and still do occasionally), but after having played so (too) many maps for Quaddicted, I came to realize that overly hard gameplay is somewhat contrary to what I originally liked about Quake. More often than not it makes playing the map feel like work and either becomes boring or frustrating.

A possible solution could be to make the three skill levels more clearly refined (and make players aware of it). Skill 0 as very easy, one could maybe say realistic in terms of monstercount; skill 1 as mildly challenging (a matter of definition of course, let's say not harder than id skill 2); skill 2 as suited for the hardcore players, though not as insane as NSOE, except maybe if there are enough extra items like quads and pents for the oldschool touch. 
So I'm inline with your opinion regarding the skill setting for may latest map

BTW: I said I loved the map, it is true as I played it on all the skills.. and it is definitely a killer map ! 

Don't want than to feel underloved in the demo stakes.

I died in this, not sure why, some silly mistake. Completed it straight after. 
you are the little explorer, aren't you? Trying to jump off every possible surface and take all the trick jumps you can is going to lead to a quick death :)

You died because you moved forward a bit too fast in a part of the level where slow advancement is easy. You went and triggered a bunch of enemies then ignored them and continued to proceed, leaving them to come up behind you.

By the way, there is a way to get the rl at the start, but you need to be quick and not kill the guy that is going to give you a hand. Anyway, as you saw later, good things come (easily) to those who wait. 
I died because your bloody lift squashed me and took off 45 health. If it hadn't then I'd have gone into that area with 100% and survived :P. 
Btw. On Deathmatch Settings 
Forgot to comment on this earlier.
While DM settings are of course useless in most SP maps, I still think it's nice to have them - however basic - for the sake of completeness and, again, oldschoolness.
Back in the days, pretty much all SP maps had DM settings. I doubt many people ever played most custom maps in this mode, though, except for the authors maybe. However, as has been mentioned, at least the id maps were played in DM sometimes for casual players didn't have the skills they have today (and the notion of how a proper DM map has to be like in terms of layout, flow etc hadn't been developed this clearly). It's also about the number of players, of course - 1on1 doesn't work in most maps (will be boring - by today's standards).
Still, I you want to feel whole, take a day off and place some additional items/teleporters/spawnflags, it isn't that much more work really. Plus you can play the map with the DMSP mod. 
Excellent Map... 
the exploration was almost always good, i only got truly confused once, which was where to go right before getting the silver key (the ladder went up to two floors, and i went all the way up, which merely led back to an earlier part of the level; i didn't realize at first that halfway up was where i should be going.)

I got the rocket launcher right at the start using trick jumps on the crates.

The message about "all these cells, must be a lightning gun" was exactly what i WAS thinking a second earlier :)

This was as well put together and vertical as apsp1, and makes me wonder sometimes how you keep the player's route figured out when staring at it in the editor :)

Details were excellent, many rooms were screenshot-worthy. 
Good effort on getting the RL, did you do it w/out an Enforcer blast? If so, how? 180' slope jump off the angled crate to the stack? Seemed quite hard with the bridge just above you. 
From the floor, I use the slope of the leaning crate to bump me up at the peak of a jump. Here's a demo: 
Okay, me and everyone else were thinking one had to get onto the NEXT crate up to get the RL, I had no idea it was possible to grab it from a single crate height.

Than you need to watch that LOL. 
God Fucking Damn It 
I'm going to release a fixxored version of this map now. Too many little annoying things and people getting insanely lost despite the abundance of arrows pointing the way around (see sleepy's demo. OMFG! ARGH! AGRH! I was screaming at him as I watched him traipse around for ages looking for the door he just opened.) 
if you do, be sure to fix the nail box inside the health box in one of the little stairway bits. (on skill 1, at least) 
We ALL got lost, didn't we? :) The path is always clear to the author. Heh. 
Getting Lost... 
...was the point. Deal with it, people. This ain't E1M1. 
A Compromise Option 
would be to give the player a bunch of extra hints on Easy mode only.

And how about that coop mode while you're at it? :) 
That jump is so very hard I don't think it is a "bug".

I thought about hints for players who don't find the way. One could use metl's logic gates TM and have it trigger maybe all 3 minutes after an event happened and until the player passes through the way that event enabled.

Random example:
Player picks up Gold Key -> Gate is open.
A. Player finds Gold Door and passes through -> Gate is closed
B. Player wanders around sad and lonely with no idea where to go, x minutes pass, Shooter shoots and message is sent: "You remember a Gold Door somewhere near the blah at the blubb". Player finds Gold Door and passes through -> Gate is closed

This would be a pretty cheap hack if testing shows problems, it won't affect the "good" player at all but help the "bad" one. 
Leave It Than 
and move on. 
"...was the point. Deal with it, people. This ain't E1M1."

Than's comment gave me the impression that you're wrong on this.

He said: "Too many little annoying things and people getting insanely lost despite the abundance of arrows pointing the way around"

So he feels the way is clearly marked. 
Oh, and I agree with nitin. There's no point in releasing a new version - it's awesome as it is. Move on to the next map instead of agonizing over perfecting this one. :) 
That Jump Is So Very Hard?? 
The one onto the single slanting crate??

Are you sure ?? 
...the point I'm making is that intense and complex exploration is part of this map. It's a different style of Quake and is sold as such, well that's the impression I got anyway... 
So overall: exploration is rewarded in this map. I think it is good as it definitely breaks the linearity some Quake maps are suffering, and than's map deserve to be rewarded for this !
A beer for the mapper ;) 
Yes! Might be the engine though, I'll try with Fitz later. 
Ok, with a bit of practise that trick is not too hard indeed. Anyways, in my opinion it is like grenadejumping (and thus can totally be ignored). Only crazy people will do such things when they play a new Quake map. 
spirit: I had something like that in the end area. The were some hints for players who ran out of regular ammo and might not realise there was an lg and a way to use it.

willem: There are a couple of bugs and I am a little bit annoyed by them. I really hate noticing bugs after releasing a map, but then I did rush the release out and skip the final beta test, so I guess it's my own fault.

Also, the trick jump is easy and I knew about that, but I didn't know the rl could be grabbed just by jumping. The rl used to sit actually on the crate and I discovered the problem myself then, so I moved it into the duct and thought it was fixed :/ Of course, I know there is a large shortcut possible by getting a boost from the defender up to the rl secret and then going up the ladder to flip the elevator switch :)

Anyway, Shambler did a much more annoying trick jump in his demo, which is a great deal harder than the rl secret one. At least partly because of the shortcut he took, he ended up getting a bit lost near the start.

Shambler: Whilst I don't mind people getting a little lost, sleepy got utterly hopelessly lost for 10 minutes or so and was trying desperately to find the way forward for quite some time. I've seen a couple of other demos where people got lost too. I actually wanted to encourage exploration, rather than make people lost :( My next map has a kind of confusing layout at the moment too :( 
Don't worry about that. I was probably hungover or something. I was getting a bit frustrated, but as you could tell, I didn't quit the map. I don't mind getting lost for a while, anyway. Well, not for as long as it took me to get back on track on this map, but now that I know where I should have gone, I'd say I was a bit stupid there. 
played on normal, 40 minutes, 5/8 secrets and killed everything.

i don't recall getting lost much. i was only slightly confused sometimes... like the first 'ladder door' message. i hadn't even seen the ladder when i opened the door for it, for example.
also, the vermis arena is really cool and detailed, but i was too afraid to move from my little corner so i just plinked away at it with nails and shotgun shells. :S
i think the vermis could use more work honestly. after seeing it in use for like a couple of years(?) now, i think it could have used some stuff to let the mapper interact with it. force it to hide for a time or something to invite players fighting in vermis arenas to move around and explore. (or have multiple spots where a vermis can appear from... like a whack-a-mole :P)

anyway, found this map really inspiring since i'm working on my own abandoned base type map. this actually gave me some energy to put some more work in. :)

(.zip for you mac dudes ^_^) 
Only crazy people will do such things when they play a new Quake map.

Well, to be fair, i think when people see a tempting item, they will try various techniques to get it. I mean, for all i knew at the time, crate jumping was the intended way to get that secret.

Still, your point is valid, and I would generally consider any speedrunning technique or trick jump to be outside the standard player skillset, and therefore such exploits can be allowed to stay in a map, and add more fun for the speedrunners. 
Still, your point is valid, and I would generally consider any speedrunning technique or trick jump to be outside the standard player skillset, and therefore such exploits can be allowed to stay in a map, and add more fun for the speedrunners.

Hurrah, good conclusion. 
Re: Shortcuts Everywhere 
knew about that one, and Shambler used it whilst playing. Doesn't really save any time since you still need the gold key to move the big lift in the start area. 
this demo is for shambler to teach him jumping like a man... not in the back!!! 
The irony being, it's piss easy doing it forwards, the whole point of doing it backwards (a bit trickier) was to show Spirit that it was so easy to do.


P.S. If anyone can jump off the top of the crate onto the double stack, I'll be impressed. 
Finally Played This 
Fucking brilliant!

A real sense of place and function, which is rare in a quake map.

The underwater / flooded motif was very well done, and never got annoying (running out of air, or stuck underwater etc).

Loved all the little details like the floating crates, wall panels and windows. Some of the monster reveals were really cool too.

The only nitpick I can think of is that the map was quite maze like, and I did wander around a bit at times, but the feeling of exploration meant that it wasn't dull. The wall markings helped too :)

Final area was very well done, and again an excellent attention to detail here too.

Some of the secrets made me laugh :) 
Thanks for the comments :)

I'll try and make my next map a little less mazelike somehow... I was thinking of trying to make it nonlinear, but that might not work out judging by the size and complexity as it stands :/ 
Don't think it was bad in terms of layout - complex is good, as long as you've got the trail of breadcrumbs for the player to follow.

The typical one is follow the enemy road - make sure there's always enemies along the route that the player must take, probably through respawning.

The other is to litter it with cheap power ups. By cheap I mean things that don't really affect gameplay too much, like coins in Mario or Stimpacks in Q2. So when the player sees a trail of them leading down a corridor they know they haven't been that way before.

The normal Quake method is to stick an arrow texture on the wall, which is fair enough although can be improved by making it a func and removing or swapping it when it doesn't apply.

There's the classic contrived disaster as well - bad tunnels collapse or burst into flames, although this moves from the realm of hint to simple blocking off, or else challenging a daredevil player to leap the opened up chasm, walk through the fire or try dodging the impossible laser beam trap.

I know I'm not saying anything you don't know here, but I'm interested in the methods the rest of you use. 
in antediluvian i put a box of ammo/health in each wind tunnel in the main hub room, so if you see that item sitting in one of the open tunnels, you know you haven't taken that tunnel yet. 
Hardi Har Har Harrrr 
The underwater / flooded motif was very well done, and never got annoying (running out of air, or stuck underwater etc).

Can't really agree with this. Having to search for the way in flooded areas with lots of crap in the water is a bit like running around on Mars while your oxygen runs out.

I do find such a mechanic a minor annoyance. It can be done if the route is really obvious, which it isn't here.

I got confused and frustrated by this.

Don't think it was bad in terms of layout - complex is good, as long as you've got the trail of breadcrumbs for the player to follow.

The typical one is follow the enemy road - make sure there's always enemies along the route that the player must take, probably through respawning.

It was often hard to tell where a monster came from, or several monsters attacked. At least it felt like that. I don't think using monsters as signposts works in a complex map. It's not always clear how to interpret a monster attack. It may be a signpost, or it may just be an attack.

It doesn't work reliably unless the layout is really simple (it worked a few times in Quake 4, where the route was hard to miss in the first place). Like if you have a T-junction, an attack from one side might indeed work like you say. But when you have a complex 3D layout, a monster attack (especially if you didn't see where the monster originated from) is an unclear signal.

Plus some players have the tendency to naturally do the opposite of what they feel they're supposed to do. Some games (like Doom3) actually reward you for this (not following the bot). This only works if the main route is really well marked, which it isn't in this map.

But the main problem was the threat of drowning (in effect punishing the player (by death) for losing orientation, which isn't the player's fault in the first place).

The normal Quake method is to stick an arrow texture on the wall, which is fair enough although can be improved by making it a func and removing or swapping it when it doesn't apply.

I saw the arrows in this map, but it wasn't always clear how to interpret them. I feel if a map has to use arrows on the walls, then it is overly complex.

There's the classic contrived disaster as well - bad tunnels collapse or burst into flames, although this moves from the realm of hint to simple blocking off, or else challenging a daredevil player to leap the opened up chasm, walk through the fire or try dodging the impossible laser beam trap.

I tend to favor this, because it makes it relatively simple on the player. As a player, I want to concentrate on blasting monsters, not desperately looking for the way while my oxygen runs out AND getting attacked while doing so. Collapsed tunnels, malfunctioning doors and broken lifts are a little nicer than just closed doors, which I have no problem with, either.

"The player is a dunce". Especially on the first play through, which may decide if the player likes / will replay the map or not. If I'm punished for losing orientation (the mapper's fault, not mine) during the first couple play throughs, it might influence my motivation and my desire to come back to this map. 
For Water 
I try and remind myself to always use it as a change in environment type rather than a hazard - lava and slime do that job.

So I tend to include lots of breathing spots, but also lots of submerge only routes. This can be 100% lineal no problem, with items and pickups hidden away in the water to encourage diving.

When using water as a hazard it's pretty important to make it almost impossible for the player to lose their way - they'll still get the same 'I made it' weather or not they had to choose between corridor A or B - and it eliminates giving them the nagging doubt that they left something behind.

For expanding route choices - opening routes inside previously visited ones - I'd suggest making the new routes a different colour. Change from red bricks to blue, or all the trim from gold to black.

These aren't comments about the map, I'm just writing stuff down as it occurs.

Does remind me to go back and play this one again though. 
After Lone And Silent Hours.. 
.at all this is the best Map i�ve ever played so far.!
Always going back to the start, if failed.. Amazes me most, to try it again, that thrill!! Sorry RickyT, yours is equal,but... but the Crategasm got me:)
What comes near for me iss like the DM3RmxMap. Oh so Hard, hate that shamblers!!
"Than there will be blood" I Say. 
And I... 
still have no clue were all the secrets are to be found..

Greets from Cologne, GerMany!! 
Heh - I thought this map was better too. Very addictive map - search for the secrets and you will find. If not then search this thread and you will find a demo or two I'm sure ;)

Thanks btw 
Pure Genius 
I remember when this originally came out and wanted to see for myself what everyone was going on about and wow, WOW, W-O-W this map is just pure genius, I LOVE IT!

I started playing on Skill 0 and worked my way through all the different skill levels and found all the secrets. This is not something I normally do but this is the first SP map I have found where there has been an actually effort to create different skill levels. AI upgrades, extra pickups and each play through a challenge with tricky and fun moments.

The atmosphere and visuals are just amazing, I really loved the whole scale of the base, even thou is typical Q1 'fat' scale with chunky window borders it still felt right. The AI suited their surroundings and it just made the whole place even more believable.

I did find one thing confusing about layout, the first drop down into the water I could not work out where to go. It was by accident that I backed into a doorway that had a door open behind me and AI kill me without me knowing why. There should of been more clues or the door should of been more obvious. Also the jump secret felt wrong to me, trick jump for secrets is not a good thing to do.

After reading the story in the readme file (I never realised that Q1 related porn was so popular) the opening scene of a moody, cargo bay was amazing. When I finally did move after taking note of my surroundings, the solo AI patrolling and walking through the doorway was just perfectly timed.

The texture work is a thing of beauty, I never thought base Q1 maps could look this good, everything just felt so right together. I could not find anything that felt out of place to me. Most of the edges has proper texture seams, rivets were in the right places and the whole place felt like it could actually exist and stand up structurally.

The end battle was very difficult but how the room was actually setup long before you get there with glipses of it through crate filled areas below was amazing. The final boss was confusing because of the LG messages and I thought there was only one special way to kill it, which is not the case. The room layout felt frustrating because ultimately there is only one good route to go due to the boss being lethal at close range.

Overall the map is just pure gold, it has balanced skill levels, dripping in amazing atmosphere, challenging encounters and it just makes me wonder if Q1SP can get any better than this. 

i actually really wasn't a fan of the boss fight in this map. being underwater, for some reason, really bugs me because it feels like there's a lot of pressure to get air (or find a biosuit).
i hate being pressured like that without any reprieve besides jumping right out and leaving the boss combat behind. 
I think this map is a prime example of perfect looks, but certain gameplay problems like what necros just said, and the getting lost, and the whole Quoth thing (more HP, more dangerous, without similarly upgrading the player).

Visually stunning, of course. 
I Like It When You Get Lost 
That IS immersion in my opinion. Ever go to a strange city on your own and get totally lost? I get lost in Vancouver once. None of the taxi drivers seemed to know where my hotel was, I had sunstroke from a whale-watching trip (where they give you a floatation suit and blast you off at about 40 knots on a jet-speedboat) and it took me about 2 hours of semi-panic (atleast after a while it was semi panic!) before I found the hotel. Massive adrenaline rush throughout... 
Would have been more fun if Vores had been spawning randomly on rooftops tho. 
Eddie Plateau 
I did not find the map too confusing with the route it took. I always felt like I was going forward in some way. There were plenty of clues, flickering lights, glowing red arrows and encounters to lead towards the end. My ultimate frustration was the end boss, it turned out to be like dragons lair for me. There was a certain path around the room that worked everytime and anything else was certain death.

I did not find the Quoth monsters to be over powered at all, they were always in small numbers and placed in good locations. The map felt really balanced to me with high and low intensity encounters like the eddie bursting out of the crate and the creeping around the cargo bays looking for the next encounter.

What I found especially good with encounters in this map was the restraint on using eddies everywhere in the map. Of the few quoth maps I have played, most mappers reach the eddie encounter plateau and stay there. The trick is to wind down again and try out variable encounters in different spaces. 
I Have Been Lost In Many Cities. 
But never got a massive adrenaline rush from it.

Maybe there's something wrong with me though. 
its good, got lost in Cairo once which was crazy but awesome at the same time. 
You Should Visit... 
... Jerusalem, the old David's city is awesome. There are very old stones (some are 2000 years old !!) and cool place to visit in between riots (i.e Est Wall, Saint Sepulcre, etc...)... and there is a very strange and strong faith ambience in near sacred place that anybody can feel...
This place is definitely awesome 
RE #153 
I think the adrenaline rush came from the fact that I was scared that I obviously looked like a complete lost tourist, which kinda left me wide open to being taken advantage of by those that way inclined. IE I was scared I was gonna get mugged or something. 
I wanted to download Than's demo but the link sends an error 404. Anyone still has it by any chance? 
Its On Quaddicted 
Totally Skipped The Word "demo" In You Post. Ignore. 
Thanks anyway. So, anyone? 
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