I played the beta version in normal and really enjoyed it all the way through. I haven't yet played the finished version, so I will just mention the things I liked about this map.
1. scale. Everything is big and there is lots of room to move around to fight. Very different to my last map :)
2. layout. The layout is simply awesome. I love how large the areas are yet it is very easy to get between them all once the doors have opened. I didn't really get lost that much despite the (true) non-linearity of it and lack of arrows to show me the way.
3. combat. Some of the combats are really great in this map. I think the Quoth base enemies work nicely when given more room. The Eliminators are interesting to fight without having to duck into cover every time they shoot, and the edies are nice to fight at a distance. My favourite moments involved surprise fiend attacks where they had spotted me but I hadn't realised and when I was least expecting it they pounced.
I thought the ending was a bit weak in the beta, but I suspect it is more climactic in the finished level. Also, I played on normal, so maybe I should go through the final version on hard or nightmare.
Sorry I didn't get you feedback in time. I didn't realize the release was so immanent, and I've been distracted. Was just gonna look at it tonight really. Oh well I'll just play this version.
had a day off today and was going to send comments. Anyway, will give it a whirl later tonight.
Sorry To Those Who Didnt Manage To Test On Time
basically I released it now because "it was done"
I had hit the signon buffer limit, the marksurfaces limit, the clipnodes, lightmaps were out of the question really (61 last time I checked), precache models and the total amount of entities I could stick in it due to the light tool (Tyrlite)
Brushwork and textures were all tweaked from testing though, and I fely happy enough with it to be released even though it's not perfect....
apologies should really be the other way around, I have had plenty of time but due to one thing or the other, couldnt get around to it before today.
Anyway, played it and liked it. Dont think its your best one but still a very good map. Combat was really quite fun, good use of quoth monsters in a different way (than already mentioned long range Eliminators and Eddies). Looks wise, I like your chunky architecture style but texturing should have been more varied. Good use of coloured lights again although this time I think soome of them were too saturated.
Just finished a first romp, to check architecture, basically. Played on normal.
Love the scale, interconnectivity and the lava pits... Detail is fine and I love the use of the old wornout base wad in a creative way.
Would have liked to see some exploding walls, all bases should have things that blow up.
Lighting is a bit too bright especially in the ouside areas, but I did not play on a proper engine to fully appreciate the looks of it(FOD's glquake, so I'm missing colored light and skybox).
Tonight I'll play it on a proper engine and maybe record a demo.
Found 4/6 secrets. Will sort that out also.
Good work, al in all...
You're The Biggest Twat And This Map Proves It
Nice interconnected layout, brushwork, details. I expected Quoth horde gameplay and gladly I was wrong. I died once on skill 1, but it wasn't really a mean situation. Non-linearity was good; I got lost twice searching for the key doors but not for long and it always seemed possible to get from one point in the map to the other quickly. I was going to suggest spawning in some additional enemies in already cleared parts of the map (even if there is a chance the player won't return to them). However, the newly spawned (or still living) monsters helped me find the right path a couple of times, so my suggestion would probably only create confusion.
Again, I'm impressed how you managed to fit a map of this size into the standard Quake limits. Some areas could have been a bit less spacious and with lower ceilings for variation.
Now, please let go of the base style for good!
(I know now how to get the SNG secret - I was so close...)
I love that the releases are still flowing! :)
Ricky, sorry I couldn't have tested more thoroughly but I agree with the comments above. Great map and it's awesome to see how much can still be done with the base engine.
The way to go. Lots of Edies. Lots of dying.
Weak ending, tho... The Gugs can be picked from the distance quite easily, i liked better the Shambler/Gug combo of skill 1. After them the rest is eating cake...
Grand scale and everything, definately recommended.
Thanks for including alot of the suggestions, although seemed odd to meet dogs after I'd been through the first half of the map.
You've really consolidated the base style here, everything is solid, chunky and Quakey, with the large-scale layout being seemingly complex but also easy to navigate once you've got your bearings.
What's the upload log-in for Quaketastic BTW?
And The Winner...
...of this year's "FPS Maps That Are One Billion Times Harder At The Start Than At The Finish Despite It Being Bloody Obvious And Surely A Much Better Choice To Have Escalating Rather Than Easing Gameplay" goes to........
OMG, Triple Post.
So. Bloody hell. Hugely impressive map, a monstrosity but in a good way. Just really big, bad, and proper.
+ fantastic map.
+ splendid and comprehensively good architecture.
+ consistent theme and great build quality.
+ great gameplay for the mid-parts with some fine battles.
+ good balance in the mid-parts.
+ good blend of monsters throughout.
+ impressive layout and progression.
+ nice exploratory secrets.
- coloured lighting is pretty foul in a Quake map.
- a few areas can feel a bit repetitive.
- very start is crap, and disproportionately hard if wrong route is taken.
- gets surprisingly easy to finish.
- maybe lacking some spawning monsters.
- some combats could be more themed.
That will do....
Combats. It's nice when combats really stand out in Quake.
The highlight of this one was Shambler + SNG vs. hordes of Eddies / Enforcers above the U-shaped stairway, proper duck and shoot style, felt like something out of a film.
Those blue Enforcers were well used too.
"What's the upload log-in for Quaketastic BTW?"
Same as shub-hub.
I tried that, I'm sure.
Secrets. Can't Find That Dodgy Last One.
Must have typoed it.
I really like the dodgy last secret, as can be seen in the demo.
... upload a .zip, so I can see your dodgy secret luv....
yeah well from watching Negks demo I can say that the secret box of rockets up in the rafters is dodgy. You can grab the rockets without hitting the trigger (damn!)
Well I'll probably have to tweak it just for that (and maybe stick an intermission in as Preach says it wont add to the signon buffer)
then get Willem to replace the upoaded file (if that would be OK Willem?)
It wont affect demo playback though, or anything really.....
Heh - thanks for the comments guys, you're all too kind. I know the map aint perfect, theres some z-fighting in a couple of places and a couple of slightly miss-aligned textures here and there.
I recommend playing on skill 2/3 btw!
Not only it's possible to grab it w/o triggering the secret(jumping near but not on the ledge), but I learned that you can actually land on the ledge and not trigger the secret all the same.
My dodgy secret is another one, anyway....
And, For F**k's Sake....
...please, upload demos in a widely used format. Zip compression is just as good as 7zip, with the added bonus of being usable by all.
"then get Willem to replace the upoaded file (if that would be OK Willem?)"
Sure. Shoot me an email with the filename you want removed when the time comes. Might take me until the evening to get to it if it's during the week but I'm happy to accommodate.
7zip files can be opened using WinRAR
Any Other Tip...
... for MAC users?
BTW, I have no problem decompressing 7zips(at home, not here on my MAC), but I wonder where is the gain in using means to share stuff that in the first place needs a very uncommon application ...
Sorry for the OT, guys, back to the map for that last secret...
.. I think you may find a (win/Mac)rar.exe for Mac on the internet... google it !
If you want better compression factor: use dzip
For linux user, you have to find the source, and compile it... maybe with your kernel, reboot,and then cross finger it will work :P
Just use ZIP guys. Honestly.
Perfect, JPL, Thanks!!!
... Perfect for un-raring .rar files.
.dz files are simply not recognized. Invalid format.
DZip. It provides extra compression for demos so they'll fit onto floppies which is a very pressing issue in 2009.
Heres A Mac Program For Dzip Files
(TBH I just googled "dzip", although I see that's not obvious unless you know dz is a format for a program called "dzip")
Anyway it says that there's a Mac version there :)
Another point, without wanting to start another long discussion about formats for compression:
I know 7zip is a great program and 7z is a great format, but I tend to use .zip for stuff nowadays because it doesn't require any messing, ats the most widely used format. And I know that the other formats have tighter compression, but the difference is not so great, the convenience outways the slight increase in potential file size.
...who like downloading large files, here's an extra 4meg of zip bloat for y'all:
...You're one sexy huggy bear.
And for the xtra meat, well, more cushion for the pushin', ain't it?
"the convenience outways the slight increase in potential file size."
Right, that's the crux of the issue for me. Saving a few hundred KB doesn't mean as much to me as being able to open the file without a hassle.
I finding right click / open with dzip / extract to be a world-ending pain in the ass*
(* a bit like Willem's posts on here ;)).
Anyway, silent, it is me bumbling away for nearly an hour. Any tips on gameplay skillz, hit me with them.
Not everyone is using Windows.
That's fair enough, I've been using Dzip by default but these days it makes little difference. Zip it is.
Sweet, thanks! I love watching demos and it sucks having to twat up every new map release thread with DZip whining. :)
1. the map
2. look here
(...) being usable by all.
Not everyone is using Windows.
(...) it sucks having to twat up every new map release thread with DZip whining
Umm, you do know how to install software, yes? If I do the whining, people say "Install Windows FFS" but if you do the whining, people say "Yes Sir, Mr. Mac user"?!
We had this discussion before, is your memory that fogged?
gb: It does not run on modern MacOS.
Watched Shamblers demo. Shambler your level reviewing skills show here - your'e very thorough! I was heartily impressed!
Heh - try doing skill 3 with no secrets...
Also I cant decide weather to fix the map now or not because the dodgy secret says "nice jumping!" and, well I guess you only trigger the secret if your jumping is good and true. I should probably fix it.... :P
Another beautiful base map release right after ASPS2! Really like the architecture and layout, but DAMN! Either I suck really bad or everybody is really good! I had to put on god mode but I got lost toward the end and couldn't get through the exit doors and then i fell into the lava and gave up. I'll have to download some demo to see how to do it properly. Quoth is really cool, nice use of the monsters. It was sweet getting the plasma rifle towards the end.
I died many times too on Normal. :)
Solid map indeed. You'll see funny deaths in my demos, especially where I am getting squished. I was pretty pissed by that. The lighting was very bright and dull at many places, that's the only criticism I want to give. Nice fun to play!
Weird choice for the soundtrack though, heh. I guess it was the default in Worldcraft or something?
Spirit, Link. Link, Spirit. Hi Link!
... that beginning is so great, but way too hard. Great use of Edies ;>. Half way through but and hating that quoth GL.
The gameplay is great, fun, and simple.
Brushwork also was simple but on a grand scale.
I liked the colored lighting and I have to admit that you used it very well also in your other releases.
Gameplay wins on this one, keep up the great work.
"Twat up" is possibly the best phrase I've heard in a while...
I think what shows through more is, well, my enjoyment of levels that are this engrossing, but also my respect for the challenge and stuff. Just trying to play well, at my relative standard. I was chuffed with secret 6 tho.
not too hard at all to start, but didn't finish. got lost after 2nd gold key and then didn't have time to figure it out so quit. Great scale - Kind of CZGish in size, though not nearly as pretty. Liked the architecture very much though. Favourite part was definitely the staircase that shambler mentioned before.
No demo, sorry.
Keep it up! Base or not, its all good.
Skill 3 Demo
Glad To See...
everyone accepted gladly my pledge for demos in .zip form...
Here's mine. 100% kills&secrets, 37 something.
Plain boring(the demo, the map rocks).
BTW. At home, on a PC, i was able to savor the full experience. Great stuff. A little more attention to colored light intensity and placement would have made this perfect. As it is, it's only great! Love it! Thanks Ricky!
Good Base Map
Like most have said already, I appreciated the scale, unique combat scenarios, and architecture. Compared to Than's flooded base map, things were a bit more clunky -- albeit more Quakey -- and the layout was waaay more spread out. I enjoyed the moving stairs/platforms and especially like the SNG secret. The end fight was a bit weak and I thought some of the lava areas could have been better utilized but, all in all, this was a monsterous success. Good job, Ricky!
P.S. As a player who prefers to hug walls and avoid open areas, there seemed to be an excessive amount of door opening/closing and out-of-sight monster sounds in this map.
Well, what to say more than others said already. Huge map, good combat, some minor things to improve (colored lights... too much.. make it smoother) but, well: good base map, good architecture and design. Well, yopu definitely have a good Quake-ish sense of mapping :)
Keep it up !
Satisfying gameplay and solid visuals. The style of architecture, coloured lighting and new base monsters made it a very Quake2-ish experience. I enjoyed being able to mindlessly rush through the map and not have to reload or backtrack later, like a deathmatch game with monsters, because of the interconnected layout. On the other hand this approach did get me lost a few times.
Worthy of special applause is that you have broken that annoying habit of putting gugs at the top of long elevators.
Finished It Yesterday...
lots of people have said what i would say; i think the only thing worth repeating is how deliciously nonlinear this level is. I think the techical term for this layout is a "braid maze" -- a maze with no dead ends, where you end up going in loops if you choose the wrong path. It was a series of loops, where you would either continue in the same loop, or find a passage to the next loop in the series. It's a good model to follow if you want to build a nonlinear map that maintains a sense of progression from start to finish.
Uff... What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been...
Oh, It's Skill 3.
NahkahiirR Has Done A Speedrun!
<RickyT23> Do you mind if I post the demo URL on Func?
<NahkahiiR> Go ahead.
<NahkahiiR> I found a faster route.
<NahkahiiR> Nah, just post it, this trick is a bit harder. :)
<NahkahiiR> Double grenade jump off of an "edie."
<NahkahiiR> To the secret quad or whatever quoth name it has.
I just did what I described above. A fiend boost was a nice extra.
Of course not optimal.
Good effort with the 0:49 Nahk :)
Nice bananas. I have got it down to 36 seconds now. I found out there is a faster way to grenade launcher. Also the edie boost + gj works better than double gj.
If somebody finds a faster route, please tell me and I'll run it. :)
I'm now working on the Easy 100%...
I disliked quoth earlier because I didn't get used to monsters and such. Now it feels easier to play. Thanks Ricky for tempting me to speedrun your map!
Easy 100% In 6:02
I'm getting somewhat used to quoth monsters. Still they are bigger pain in the ass than normal quake monsters. I directed all my aggression at them and did this speedrun:
NIGHTMARE 100% coming next...
what engine did you record that in? crashes fitzquake and glquake after about 2 minutes, but seems to work in glquakebjp.
joequake for sure...
nice demo Nahk you rock...
Its the 8oBs - they crash Fitz in demo playback if recorded in tomaz engines AFAIK - JoeQuake is OK though I guess
Sweet dude, nice improvements.
... is caused by the transparent effect on certain explosions (eg. the Bob's). The Quoth QC must set the .alpha field, which JoeQuake reads and then stores in the demo. So to play it back, you need an engine that supports alpha models (any Nehahra engine, or aguirRe's GL).
metl: haven't you added U_TRANS to the new FitzQuake yet? ;)
ah, thanks for the explanation.
I have implemented alpha, which requires a protocol change, for which i sensibly set a new version number so clients wouldn't crash randomly when reading it. Seems that some people just put extra data in protocol version #15 and think that's okay :)
But I am interested in handling the nonstandard data if possible, so with the details you just provided, I will see what I can do.
Metl, please... Consider enabling full use of keyboard for us MAC users in the next Fitzquake release, not being able to map the command key is the only thing that keeps me away fron your wonderful engine...
I will never thank you enough...
That would be a feature request for me, as I am maintaining the SDL version for now. I'll make a note.
Thanks So Much, Sleepwalkr!!!
You made me an happy man!!!
Seems that reading the U_TRANS data is pretty easy. I guess this is the bastardized version of protocol 15 used by nehahra, joequake, and aguirre's glquake. I looked at the Tomaz source too, but he seems to use a much different protocol, at least in tomaxquake 148. Maybe earlier versions of tomazquake use the nehahra protocol?
Just played this level and it's amazing! Liked that it's all interconnected and at the same time it's easy to find a way there. Also fin and relaxed gameplay there. Good job!
Very large scale, good subtle use of colored light.
Cool geometry, especially the bridge. Always enough space to fight. Definitely your most perfect map.
Though I have to say that your last 3 maps had a bit more "character" and were a bit more experimental.
Really cool, haven't had this much fun in q1sp in years! Great job, really nice connectivity, took me a while to find places sometimes, but I was never frustrated. Top marks!
Everthing was said already.
first run - skill 2 - not finished
second run - skill 1
just played this for the first time a couple of weeks ago (i skipped pretty much any map that i couldn't play in FQ, so now that limits were raised, i'm going back and playing them :P )
great map, and huge, which makes all the detailing even more impressive. lots of great fights and cool looking set pieces.
(there's a demo of sickbase in there too...
hi I just played the two frist map of qouth but when i get to map03 it gives me a error saying the it can't find e1m3qouth map so is there a patch or something that will fix this cuse qouth looks prtty F###ing good
Patience Young Grasshopper
That map isn't made yet, it might appear in Quoth 3...
In the meantime I expect there are some other Quoth maps you haven't played yet. ne_marb and red777 were released with the first version, and there are some smaller test maps included in quoth as well:
kelltest1 to kelltest5
I'm sure that other authors of quoth maps will be more than happy to promote their works to you as well.
Most Of My Maps Are Quoth
Thanks for the comments everyone!
so when will qouth 3 be coming out
I'd like answer cuse nt is not the answer i was looking for
If you want good custom content you could try Nehahra and Soul of Evil.
You forgot Zerstorer.
travail, BB... and so on ijed
warpspasm (still working through this one, maps are huge)
Well, hope you like it. Overlook the spareness :)
But the big three are probably Nehahra, Zerstorer and Insomnia. Although the last one has little in the way of obvious custom code.
i skipped all maps that didn't run in fitzquake, but with the new protocol fq runs everything so i'm working through all the previous releases i can remember.
I Recently Replayed Some Of Warpspasm.
I Recently Read Some Of TeamSmabler
It was entertaining and informative. And painful.
Apparently DKT is actually really good...
Thank god Wrpspsm wasn't released when I was still reviewing, I'm sure I'd have fucked that one up. It is still quite an anomaly albeit a good and important one.
DKT was really good before the release...
Wow, was TeamShambler your site? I had no idea.
I;m quite proud of it, although it was a while ago and I was a bit younger then.
That's cool, I loved that site! Man, those were the days...
That means he bleeds! We _can_ kill it!
Still a great archive.
Need All The Runes First
Long Distance Peashooter
With my recent venture into Quoth territory I found this map in the news archive section and wanted to give it go. The initial screenshot looked promising and I do like maps that offer route choices.
I started the map on skill 0 and I was presented with a lava death lake and odd shaped rocks I had to jump across like some mario puzzle land. Luckily on skill 0 there was no enemies (sadly this changed on skill 1) as the rocks were really small in size and awkward to jump from because of the annoying angles. Not really sure why I had to start with such a deadly trap around me but the rocks led across a canyon of lava up to an installation building high up on the rock walls.
The starting combat was easy and was I given plenty of armour, ammo and health packs to survive the various grunts wandering around. It was a nice gentle introduction to the level and felt cool while I took note of my surroundings. The building structure offered lots of space to move around but also felt too big. I suppose it is hard to get a happy medium but the AI felt small and were dwarfed by everything else around them.
With all the rooms being so big the AI never really felt threatening because there was no space for them to sneak up or use the close promixity of walls to bounce grenades towards me. On skill 0 there were 111 monsters and skill 1 was 166 monsters! Even with this many monsters the place still felt empty. I did not see any enemies patrol or look like they were guarding the place. Everything was either tucked behind columns or aware of me and trying to find a path towards me. The map felt like it was 'How big can I make a Q1 map in scale' and it dwarfed all AI in the process.
I played the map on skill 0 and 1 and found all the secrets. Two of the secrets were trick jumps which is a terrible shame. Some areas were lacking stairs and required the player to jump from boxes or weird angled ledges to get around. The size of staircases felt too big and long and some architecture was just floating in mid air. This is the bane of base style maps, they have to look structurally sound, you cannot just make weird stuff up because then it does not suit base style anymore.
Some combat situations felt strange with keys hidden in pit rooms with connecting staircases coming out of the floor locked by keys. There was this bit where you drop down a small metal pit and get teleported to some room with 3 monsters at the end of corridors like a bowling alley. The room or combat did not make any sense and the visual clues of what the room was suppose to be was not setup.
The skill levels had different AI, health and ammo but everything was too easy because of the scale. On skill 1 the map ramped up really quickly and just became an endless fight with plasma troops and eddies. It was very rare for anything to get close to cause me concern and I spent large amounts of my time just being a sniper with a single shotgun. On the upside I did not run out of ammo or health and found all the weapons in the map.
I liked the idea of the troops spawning in from a teleporter pad but the player should of been able to destroy or turn the teleporter off instead of just waiting for each troop to arrive. There were plenty of explosive crates next to doors or where AI was going to be and because the rooms were so big and sparce on detail they stuck out like a sore thumb and looked forced gameplay wise.
The textures and architecture were well made and put together in interesting shapes but the design felt too big and empty. Even when pipes and machinery were put into rooms they were dwarfed by the ceiling being so high or looked the wrong scale compared to their surrounding. I saw plenty of AI getting stuck on staircases because they were so long and alot of the walkways had little cover or support beams to hint at how they would work structurally.
Overall I had some fun playing the map but it did not need that many AI to be fun and the architecture certainly should have been scaled down so that the AI were not easily exposed to sniper shotgun fire.
Even with this many monsters the place still felt empty.
Overall I had some fun playing the map but it did not need that many AI to be fun
I think you are burning yourself out a bit with these reviews. Good review, but very much like the "stream of consciousness" like I have been accused of employing when posting.
Im glad you played it twice! A demo would have been nice. You should totally play this map again on skill 3, because thats kinda where I balanced it. I mean skill definitions are all relative, so trust me if you dare!
The map felt like it was 'How big can I make a Q1 map in scale'
Thats what I was aiming for. This map was supposed to be my final punctuation of Quake 1 base mapping ;)
To quote myself from the sticky:
This map is about as big and detailed as I could possibly ever make a map without breaking engine limits.
Overall I would say that this sort of feedback from such a talented and experienced professional is very much welcomed, and a nice surprise for a Sunday afternoon. thanks.
Sock nails it.
Calling Quake monsters "AI" is only technically correct though :-P
Keep writing this stuff sock! Much to learn there.
I think you are burning yourself out a bit with these reviews. Good review, but very much like the "stream of consciousness" like I have been accused of employing when posting.
I assumed you would prefer the friendly chat style of feedback rather than bullet points. :( I can understand you want to push yourself when building maps (I do myself) but your map needed more than just huge space, it needed 'other' stuff to fill it. When I cleared a section of the map, it felt empty, there needed to be something else going on with the place and the layout needed to feel more human. Walkways, some tight corridors, control rooms, working machinery or at least hint of it.
try out ricky's previous map, Slave to a Machine which barring a couple of gameplay glitches is phenomenal IMHO.
You should totally play this map again on skill 3, because thats kinda where I balanced it. I mean skill definitions are all relative, so trust me if you dare!
Did not enjoy it at all. Just involved me quicksaving all the time and running out of ammo. Constant quicksave is not really the answer to me, more ammo or better weapons would have been more fun.
Oh well. I wont bother in future then.
Eye Of The Beholder
Just to restate what I've said before, and to make RT23 feel less shitty - I love this map on hard or nightmare. I almostnever die playing hard, and usually die once or twice on nightmare.
In other words, it was worth every penny.
Thick Skin Required
@RickyT23, you cannot expect everyone to like your style of gameplay and enjoy how you play the game. You should always remember you are ultimately making maps for your own enjoyment not others. If some people like your work, then it is bonus. Just because I found your latest map frustrating does not mean others will not like it. Drew and plenty of others are surely fans of your work.
Im Curious About Something
When you were playing did you feel at any point like you were lost? Or even slightly ill/dizzy if you can catch my meaning? Because when I was making this map that was kinda what I was trying to do, if I'm honest.
I did not feel any dizzy/ill effects while playing the map, I just found it really hard and frustrating on high skill levels. Part of the problem for me was that I played apsp2 before yours and it really opened my eyes to what a base map could be like with a nicely designed layout and atmosphere. I was expecting to find a theme or progression to the style of the base and architecture to suit the humanoid AI size.
have you played the czg07 pack? i'm not sure, but i think most huge scale architecture can be traced from that. i know it's why i started doing it. :x
extra large size gives you more room to move when fighting 94 monsters at once. ^_^;
Apsp2 Is An Impossible Standard
Didn't it take than something like 5 years to make?
Ironically, i got really really lost playing apsp2 the first time (no one's fault but mine).
This Was Good Tho.
Nuff said. Design has gotta be Rick's Slickest.
my favourite of his maps, for sure
Quoth 2.2 Bug?
Playing in Quakespasm with patch 2.2 installed,
I experienced this:
Gameplay-wise this leads to a situation where the player can only proceed by an extremely well-timed and precise jump(or a trickjump),
and he gets only one chance as failure means death in lava.
As I later understood from a couple of demos,
this is what should happen:
After this, I deleted pak2.pak (the patch)
from the quoth directory, and things were
fine as in the latter demo.
Long story short: the pak2 file seems to change
the door from being closed to being open.
Investigation In Progress
Thanks to the magic of "git bisect" I've found the change in the code which caused this bug, which is half the battle. Working out how the change has such a strange effect is still in progress...
The change is another conflict born of balancing Quoth compatibility with vanilla Quake and compatibility with her own maps. At some point, Quoth made the spawn sequence for func_trains about 0.5 seconds slower. This was necessary for cloning trains, but breaks some vanilla maps. 2.2 tried to split the difference, by only running slower spawns on trains that use the features that demanded it, while putting other trains back at full speed. Evidently this map relied on the slow spawn in a way I don't yet understand.
Bit Of Progress
It appears that there's a race condition in this map. Gonna post it mostly to gather my thoughts, and maybe check with Ricky I'm on the right lines here...
The delay I talk about above is how long it takes for the train to be teleported to its first waypoint. Entities in the map spawn in list order, so if the train is earlier than the waypoint doesn't exist during the train spawn-function. The standard practice in vanilla Quake is to wait 0.1 seconds before teleporting the train to its waypoint. This happens on the second server frame, before anything is drawn or can be noticed.
In Quoth prior to 2.2, this delay was increased to 0.6 seconds, which made out of place trains briefly visible at the start of the map, and caused some items to fall off platforms (but ensured that cloned platforms work correctly). In 2.2 this delay returned to 0.1 seconds for any platform which doesn't have clones or "smoothed movement", to fix those glitches.
To understand the bug in this map, it's worth reflecting on where the platform is before it gets teleported - it's in limbo wherever it was placed by the mapper. The other crucial factor here is a trigger_once placed in this particular map, which fires almost immediately upon the map starting and targets the train.
In Quoth 2.0: The trigger_once targets the train before it has been teleported to its first waypoint, owing to the larger than normal delay applied in this version. This has the effect of cancelling the scheduled teleport, which would normally be disastrous!
However, things manage to sort themselves out, because triggering the train causes it to travel from its limbo position to the first waypoint (the closed position). That's more-or-less equivalent to the teleport code, especially as the player can't get there fast enough to see it happen.
In Quoth 2.2: This time round, the teleport code wins the race, and by the time the train is triggered, it's already taken up the closed position. The result is that the trigger_once now opens the door!
So it's a bit like the apsp1 rotation glitch from a few months back. The map has some cruft which used to be benign, but is now poisonous. Since there's no way to distinguish in code between this situation and genuine intent to immediately trigger a train on map start, any fix will need to be a shim applied to this map. I'm gonna sleep on exactly what that fix should be...
Compatibility With Her Own Maps
So it's a she!
Preach, thank you very much for your thorough investigation
and sharing your thoughts.
I apologize for the title 'Quoth 2.2 bug?'.
If I understand your posts correctly, parts of the map
rely on bits of the Quoth 2.1 code to function as intended.
These bits of the code have been changed for Quoth 2.2.
In this particular case this makes a difference which is
specific to this map.
A Bug Is A Bug
I consider any case where we have regression of function in later versions of Quoth to be a bug, regardless of the genesis. Writing out exactly how it happened is just a way to figure out big the scope is, and to hopefully avoid it happening again. The bug here doesn't look like it would be replicated in other maps going forward, so I don't think I need to think about reverting the change entirely in the mod.
Instead I think the best thing would be to apply a shim
to this map. The shims in Quoth are actually a well kept secret I'll share here. When I discover this kind of conflict, where a generally beneficial global change causes a particular map to break, I add a special exception to that map rather than revert the change. This is called a shim, and there are two bits:
The first bit is the identification of the map which needs the fix. I create a "fingerprint" of the map, based on the fields of the world entity, so matching based on the model, wad, message, worldtype etc. This avoids the potential pitfall of just using the bsp name: two maps might use the same name. It also means mappers who want to release an updated version of their map have an easy way to opt out of the shim - just change the map title in the message field somehow, like adding "v2" or a trailing space.
Then the fix comes afterwards. I try to ensure that the actual fixing is only in a single function in the code, so it's easy to keep track of and doesn't get accidentally deleted when things are rewritten. In this particular case, the easiest way to fix this map is just to put the delay back to 0.6 seconds. I've uploaded a tweaked 2.2 patch with this change at
Not gonna bump the version number for it, but give it a try and make sure it fixes things!
Thank you for the fix(shim).
Here's a demo with the new pak2.pak:
skill 2, 210/210 kills, 0/6 secrets
Too Good For Secrets, Eh?
Good stuff. Hey Ricky, can I add this map to the map packs
page on the Quoth site? I packaged it up to do the testing on this patch...
Yeah of course Preach! That's awesome :)