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Operating Systems Thread
Vista is Microsoft force feeding us shit.
Linux - for jobless geeks only.
Macs might get you laid, but you'll have to pay and pay.

XP has a colour scheme for autistics, but is destined to live forever....
Desktop Linux ? 
is a joke sometimes. Trying out Fedora 10 last night... it installed ok but I couldn't log in. Not from the GUI login screen or the console. Not as root or user.

F-ing unbelievable.

So i rebooted into runlevel 1 via grub, disabled SE Linux, rebooted again and could now log in as user. As you do.
Everything i tried was broke anyway. Kde-4.1 is still a pre-alpha disgrace (stick with 3.5), Kolf (mini golf) is now broke, no mp3 or video playback despite having multiple players installed, Gnome icon theme wouldn't resize, chess program glChess (gnome-games-2.24) is crap, and it screwed my system clock too. 
Ricky, I had a look in my bios for a PnPlay item. The Bios is a bit shit actually.. there is a PCIPnP menu, but the only options are for PCI Latency timer and PCI IDE Busmaster, not the usual "PnP operating system"... So no win98 :( 
Want It That The AGP Didnt Work? 
I mean if you have an agp gfx card then look for AGP settings in bios, not PCIe

im no expert 
Want = Wasnt 
Windows 7 
Already making it unsafe to store your personal data! Buy Windows 7 now! 
Oh Noes... 
now i have to worry about people breaking into my house to install malware? 
Dual-booting a really cut-down optimised version of XP, and Ubuntu 8. Works for me, think it's pretty unlikely I'll switch to Windows 9.

Anyone tried Ubuntu 9 yet? 
no problems so far.
boots really fast. Very cool indicator applet. New nvidia driver with opengl 3.0 8)

What I don't like is that they removed some partitioning features from the installer. Had to create the partition with gparted. Still using ext3 though. 
And Its 
9.04 -> April 2009

not 8. 9. 
Ah Yes 
the bi-annual naming convention. Was running 8.10 before, and obviously its April now. Might be worth the reinstall from what I've seen. Tempted to try kubuntu 9.04, never ran KDE before but it always looks sexy as hell. 
No Fucking Way 
That Amiga OS that Aardappel was working on and then wasn't, and we never heard about again. THAT'S THE SHIT. 
9.04 is fine for me. Suffering a bit from the "intel graphics are slow" problem.

Also FF3 seems to have a fetish for eating all the RAM in the machine, but that was going on with Intrepid too. 
the new kernel doesn't work on my Dell Latitude c400. Nor does a custom compiled one.

i run it fine with the 7.04 kernel though. the 8.10 one doesn't resume from standby...

Not that i noticed any difference besides new less annoying pop up bubbles... just that there's now more of them . 
Stop Complaining About Vista 
Repeating what you hear on fuckwit anti-MS websites and posting experiences of running Vista on "brand" PCs loaded up the wazoo with useless bloatware won't make it true.

Vista is fine, on machines with 1GB ram, its as fast as XP, on machines with more, its faster. 
I Have Vista On This PC Here At Work 
I like it. Its great! Runs like a dream, boots fast, everything works, even got an old demo of Carmageddon 2 to work on it fine, Quake, everything. USB peripherals load faster (noticably).

Asus N10j NETBOOK running Vista Business - on an Atom processor:

Runs fine, no complaints there. OCed the Atom from 1.6Ghz to 2.01Ghz and despite what it says on the GamesRadar website Fallout3 runs fine.

4Gb and 2Gb RAM respectively. 
Seems like most of the complaints about it hinge on the fact that people are scared of change.

I've got a new setup arriving with Vista.

I'm one of the windows lazy. 
Vista is alright but damn is it slow doing some basic things. My work machine takes no less than 10 minutes to get from from power up to "ready to work" state. And most of that time is spent after I log into Vista. 
Well Vista runs on my machine like a dream just a few seconds boot time, Linux too and I guess XP would also run well.
But thats not really the point, it does not mean that I have to like it. 
Multiple Replies 
Jago: You are a braver man than I...

Vista is fine, on machines with 1GB ram

I would still not want to try with anything lower than 2GB. Good thing this computer I have now has 4GB...

ijed: I switched about a month ago. Some things will piss you off in how they've changed from XP. UAC has high "marmite factor", but I would definitely try with it on first before turning it off. 
I'll Give It A Try 
It's alot faster than my old machine in any case. Downside is it's capable of playing games after 1997. 
Very quick, but don't know if thats the machine or OS. 
Desktop Linux 
Just Installed Windows 7 
Meh, pretty good. Very similar to Vista in a lot of ways, but generally seems more polished and less annoying. Doesn't seem like a huge leap right now, but maybe it isn't supposed to be. I like some of the new desktop backgrounds, for what that's worth :)

Still can't stand the Aero theme though, it's just way too busy and it takes up way too much space. Unfortunately, as with Vista, they haven't taken much care with windows classic mode, looks a bit buggy and crap.

I'm curious, what do people here go for, the full pazazz of the modern OS themes, or something clean and simple?

Currently I'm using a custom theme which is very close to windows classic, with the Vista font, and Icons from the tango project ( ). Very happy with this at the moment, about as clean and inoffensive as it gets. 
As a Mac nerd, I feel the OS should deliver nice aesthetics without slowing to a crawl or causing crashes. 
I am a big fan of OS X.

As soon as they finish letting the HackBook people write drivers for everything that's not standard apple hardware I'll switch to the universal release (it'll happen, trust). 
Re: #25 
I agree except replace "nice aesthetics" with "clean, non-offensive, functional aesthetics" and I think OSX and XP's "windows classic" skin both provide this. OSX is probably a little more "nice" but in both cases, you can get used to the visual appearance and it doesn't get in your way with attempts to be flashy. 
Well Yeah 
Functionality is first consideration.

One thing I have a semi-irrational dislike of is when buttons have a circular image but sqaure contact area - why fucking bother?

Form should always follow function. <rant> 
Yes, and form following function is exactly what OSX does IMO. It does many nice looking effects but none of them get in the way of using the OS. The OS responds as if those effects weren't there. 
Oh Yes 
window wobbling streching fucktarding does so follow function. As do coloured balls. Oh, and reflections. Didn't some mac app practically DEFINE those? Ah, and slideshows that use all the mac mambo jambo 3d rotating cube effects, i love how the Mac designers hit the form follows function concept spot on with those. :P 
None of those things interfere with the function they are supporting. I'm not sure what the "mac mambo jambo 3D rotating cube effects" are but the rest of them are innocuous.

By "window wobbling streching fucktarding" I assuming you mean the genie effect when you minimize and restore windows. Non issue.

By "coloured balls" you either mean the buttons on the top left of the window or the busy cursor. Non issue.

"Reflections" is pretty clear as to the meaning but ... how is that a problem and how does it interfere with the function? The dock has reflections on it. It looks good and doesn't get in the way at all.

Is this just irrational Mac hating or do you have an actual issue here? 
I think he was disputing the form following from function rather than being merely (possibly ott) fx for the sake of fx.

tbh I go with It looks good and doesn't get in the way at all

And there are so many entirely rational reasons to hate on Macs that I fail to see the need for irrational hating... 
to be honest, the colored ball thing is legit -- the fact that the icons aren't visible all the time can't have any functional purpose, they hid it just to look more sleek at the cost of reinforcing user expectations.

Now, i do think it's pretty nice the way unsaved documents have a modified "close" icon, though. Better than the silly windows "put an asterisk after the document name in the title bar" hack. 
"to be honest, the colored ball thing is legit -- the fact that the icons aren't visible all the time can't have any functional purpose, they hid it just to look more sleek at the cost of reinforcing user expectations. "

How do you mean? The only thing I can see is when a window loses focus, the 3 balls turn grey. I've never seen them disappear entirely. 
Oh Apple Users And Their Coloured Balls... 
Do The Balls Touch? 
GUI Comparison 
Out of interest, I thought I'd do a quick comparison of Windows 7 Aero against classic mode. I think all I really proved is that Internet Explorer looks absolutely shocking.

Windows 7 Aero

Windows 7 Classic

XP Classic (ish) 
Windows Aero? 
Do you mean the translucent frams that the windows are in?

Whats wrong with that? Looks good, works fine on my missuses Atom processor, whats the problem with that? 
frams = frames 
Aero Is The Theme In General 
includes transparancy etc. I think it's a bit visually noisy and generally gash personally. Does seem more refined and clean than in Vista though, for what that's worth.

Transparancy isn't always bad though, I've seen it looking sexy in KDE, e.g. 
Does Windows 7 force that giant taskbar on you?

Part of the reason I rate OS X is the effecient use of screenspace. 10% of my screen as a bar is hardly maximal usage... 
Lol Starbuck 
my only problem with the 'coloured balls' on the mac ui is that there isn't a maximize button. at all.
i mean... why? i have to manually drag a frame into the top left corner, then drag the botton right corner all the way to the edge.

with Spaces, it makes working with maximized frames completely viable, but there's no way to actually maximize anything quickly.

besides that, my only other gripe is with the fucked up mouse acceleration that requires me to get 3rd party software to make the mouse useable. i don't really know what the big deal that everyone is making about the graphical effects. you can turn off most (or all?) of them if you want and they don't cause crashing or visual anomalies. the integration of the effects is done well. 
the balls stay visible, and keep their color, but the icons inside them ( x - + ) are only visible when you mouseover them. 
Metl & Nonentity Thanks 
for explaining this ;-) 
I can see how this is not "form-follows-function", but isn't that splitting hairs? It's not a big deal or usability disaster, in my opinion. There are far worse things than that, like for example the mouse accel curve that necros mentioned (although I believe they changed it in Leopard).

I for one prefer Mac OS over Windows because there are a lot of small things that make my life easier and allow me to work more productively. The two systems are pretty similar anyway, since they both use similar metaphors, but to me, working with the Mac OS feels more natural and simply quicker than working with Windows. Two examples of very useful features in the Mac OS are Spotlight (search function) and Expose (application switching).

Btw, I hear the no-maximize-button complaint frequently from Windows users and switchers, but personally I never missed that function. I hardly use maximized windows, and those programs that I feel make sense to have maximized windows do actually use the entire screen when you press that button (XCode and the Eclipse IDE for example). 
sleepy: i didn't bring it up, but it is something that i've noticed, so i was just clarifying the point someone else made. I don't consider it a big problem.

For me the main complaint with osx is that everything seems designed for a desktop full of overlapping, non-maximized windows, and it's not easy to do my preferred organization, which is every window maximized and alt-tab between them. First, apps like photoshop don't have a container window for documents on mac, so you either hide all other apps or you have a visual clutter of background apps. Second, the inability to easily maximize windows in some apps. Third, alt-tab (apple-tab in mac) only selects apps, not windows, and the dock likewise doesn't show multiple windows in the way that the windows taskbar does. (this is why tabbed browsing is actually pretty awesome; it's less of a big deal in windows.) Fourth, the fact that the menu bar is not attached to windows is especially problematic on dual monitors, if you have the app window on the second monitor, but still have to go to the other monitor to use the menus.

I'm not a mac hater, there are a lot of little things that mac gets right and windows fucks up. For example, mousewheel functionality should always affect the window/control that is directly under the mouse cursor, not the one that currently has focus, that's the whole point of having it physically on the mouse. Mac does this right, windows doesn't (though windows firefox seems to hack it to work correctly.) Also, filename editing in save dialogs defaults to not selecting the file extension, which is nice. The little dot in the close button when a file has unsaved changes. The F11 "show desktop" feature is toggleable, unlike in windows where it's an irreversible "minimize all" feature. The F9 windows selector is nice, and actually does a lot to help find document windows considering the problems i mentioned above. I use it instead of apple-tab most of the time because of this. The only issue with it is it relies on each window having a distincive appearance even when shrunk down, which is not always true (some apps are just white boxes with faint text and light grey toolbars, not very recognizable. Adding a watermark of the app icon might help with this.) The security approach where you have to enter a password to install software or change certain control panel settings is nice, it seems like a good balance of security and user ease-of-use.

Other things to complain about on macs? I am always dissatisfied with the "finder" window. Windows explorer makes it much easier to keep track of multiple locations in the file hierarchy, and move files between cousins rather than just ancestors and descendants. The mouse thing has been covered, there are paid apps available to tinker with acceleration to the point where it's not a big problem, though it sucks that I haven't found a free one. Also, you can't customize the dock very much. For example, it seems you can't put a shortcut to a file or folder on there. Hmm, the fact that modal dialogs appear attached to the parent window's title bar is kind of nice, but I have seen this backfire when the modal dialog is too big to see something important on the document itself, and even when the modal dialog is too long to see the bottom of it. And, there's no easy way to lock your workstation, other than turning on screensaver or putting it to sleep. Oh, and open/save dialogs disable most of the features of a folder view, so you can't delete or rename documents from inside those dialogs. It's too bad because that's a pretty convenient way to do some clean-up work in windows without actually re-navigating to the same folder in explorer.

So there's my quasi-rant on OSX. I think it's still got fewer things wrong with it than windows, but both OSes have problems and I wish they would just make some uber-OS that did everthing right. 
I agree with some of your points, esp. menu bar + multiple monitors, the finder (although I think that the column view is a great feature), sheets (modal dialogs attached to the window (it has some advantages though; you always see which window the dialog belongs to and it's much more clear why an application is currently blocked than with floating dialogs), locking (this is really idiotic).

Other things you mention don't bother me so much because I have a different workflow than you have.

Btw, you can get Windows-like Alt-Tab behaviour using witch: 
those things i mentioned might not be big usability hurdles, but it shows that the mac designers aren't what every other mac fan thinks they are.

It's interesting how different user experiences seem to be:

On my (slow) linux laptop, i seldom use anything besides emacs/console/opera, so all the mac features would be lost on me. tab switching with 1/2 in opera and alt + number in a terminal is essential though. Also, i really like my mouse enabling the window it moves over without bringing it to front, very handy with a small resolution. All visual effects disabled.

On my main rig (windows), i also use maximised apps like ps, gtkr, modeling. For navigating the fs i use the norton commander style total commander, as the shell/terminal in windows sucks so much (and totalcmd really has loads of useful features). I can't stand using explorer, it feels so goddamn slow compared to shell/totalcmd ;). I seldom use the startmenu, mostly it's the quickstart and another quickstart toolbar in totalcmd. My task bar is on the left of the left screen as small as it gets, so it only displays icons. Mouse wheel not scrolling window it's over is annoying. Windows classic skin, most visual effects disabled besides cursor shadow.

I've always been a very alt-tab based user. 
technically the windows "show desktop" feature is togglable. I was using windows-M, which is literally "minimize all" and not reversible, but windows-D does toggle the way you want, like mac's F11. 
You know, once you get used to it, you sort of stop maximizing applications as you are used to doing in Windows.

It's an application specific thing -- ToeTag, for example, will maximize to fill the entire screen because as a level editor that's the right choice. As does Photoshop. But text editors don't really need to take the entire screen up, nor do web browsers. They just need to get "as large as the application needs them to be" which is what that button does.

It's not a real issue once you start using it day-to-day.

You start to navigate differently after awhile. F11 to show/hide the desktop (which actually works correctly in OSX - in Windows it minimizes all the apps which is dumb), F9 to see all the running apps in Expose, F10 to see all documents open in the current app, etc.

ALT+TAB is the same as CMD+TAB in OSX so I'm not sure what people are going on about there.

Don't get me started on Spaces - SO nice.

And a quick note about the colored ball buttons ... there are 3 of them there and they are colored. It's not hard to remember what does what.

As always, this conversation is pretty controversial and will be plagued with flames and trolling as well as ultimately being pointless. The best you can hope for here is clearing up a few misconceptions people may have but nobody is going to be convinced to switch operating systems because of it.

And megaman ... you're trapped in a time warp. They don't design operating systems for people like you anymore. Walk into the light. 
well, i've only been using it 8 hours a day for 16 months, so maybe i shouldn't be so quick to form judgements. :)

apple-tab isn't identical to alt-tab (doesn't show multiple windows for the same app) but F9 is a pretty reasonable alternative.

photoshop doesn't fill the screen for me, but i'm using CS3 so maybe your version does.

the colored balls are fine, but take the point that hiding the icons (which are somewhat informative) and only showing colors (which have no inherent meaning to a new user) has no functional justification. It merely looks nice.

Anyway, you may be tired of OS talk, but I find it useful as a software/game design type person to examine software/game design and clarify why things work or don't work. Getting into the details about it also helps clear up misconceptions, as you say. 
well, i've only been using it 8 hours a day for 16 months, so maybe i shouldn't be so quick to form judgements. :)
As I said, nobody is going to change their minds. If you don't like it, you don't it. Nothing said here will change that. The only reason I really post in these threads is maybe learn something and hopefully clear up misconceptions that other people might have.

photoshop doesn't fill the screen for me, but i'm using CS3 so maybe your version does.
You might be right there. I can't remember clearly. At any rate, it's an application specific thing. In OSX that button means, "get as large as you need to" not "fill the screen".

the colored balls are fine, but take the point that hiding the icons (which are somewhat informative) and only showing colors (which have no inherent meaning to a new user) has no functional justification. It merely looks nice.
Arguably, it fits into the overall aesthetic of OSX which is minimal UI and clutter. Removing those symbols cleans up the UI in a small way which is fine with me. I don't need those symbols there to remember what the buttons do - and if I do need to be reminded, I'll be shown when I move the mouse up there.

Anyway, you may be tired of OS talk, but I find it useful as a software/game design type person to examine software/game design and clarify why things work or don't work. Getting into the details about it also helps clear up misconceptions, as you say.
I tire of trolling and random flames and "my OS is better than yours" crap. I'm all for discussing pros and cons of design in a mature manner. 
Oh, and in OSX's defense, one thing that mitigates the need to mimic the Windows maximize behavior is that applications remember where they last were on the screen. I believe it's a magic feature that everyone gets for free. So once you size the app to where you like it, it will remember that position and size every time you open it.

Windows relies on the individual applications to write code to do this and they seldom do - so maximizing is a quick way to remove the issue. 
And to complete my posting hat trick, let me throw in a gripe about OSX that I don't like. I don't like having to use the bottom right corner to resize windows. I think Windows has a far better solution where it allows you to drag any edge or corner to resize a window.

So there's a point for Windows design IMO.

I guess it's arguable. In OSX you get a little more screen area for working since you don't need the thick border around the entire window and from a UI design point of view, it's very clear that when you see the ridged box that you can use that to resize something.

Still, I find it annoying many times. 
Interesting Things With Windows 7 
From what i've heard it's getting good feedback, and they may have finally straightened out some of vista's bugs. But the real news is they're giving away licensed copies of XP (running under Virtual PC), with expensive versions of Win 7.
At first i thought "well... they know it's shit, and are giving away what people want [XP]. What a joke", but the bigger issue is this, and it's positive. The Windows code base is a ponderous mess because they've always offered backwards compatability. By including a virtual box for legacy programs (especially business apps) they can cut that shit out of the new operating system, and finally move forward. Security, bugs, performance and UI consistency should all benefit.

To what degree they can achieve this is debatable however. Obvious problems i can see are
1. Gamers are still in the cold as virtualisation is of negative
benefit to them, and gamers made microsoft imho.
2. Windows still has UI-design and strategy issues that are unresolved, which are huge issues the company has
never had to properly address before, unlike Apple.
3. Removing legacy functionality from the core OS ~will~ hurt people, and do they have the will to really do it ? 
> technically the windows "show desktop" feature is
> togglable. I was using windows-M, which is literally
> "minimize all"

Doesn't shift-windows-M un-minimize them ? 
I've just learnt something...

That's very useful. Thanks! 
Always behind whichever the curve is, but this sounds like its worth it. 
I'm going to ditch Windows and install Archlinux now instead. See you next week! 
Vista is alright but damn is it slow doing some basic things. My work machine takes no less than 10 minutes to get from from power up to "ready to work" state. And most of that time is spent after I log into Vista.

Only possible explanation for this is that you have a really silly amount of software set to launch upon logon and this would slow down the boot process of any OS to a crawl.

My home desktop (which is well average by today's standards: E6600 2,4 Ghz, 4 GB ram) goes from cold boot to a usable Vista desktop in under a minute. Even the retarded Fujitsu testbed machines we have at work with 1-2 gb ram launch in under 1,5 minutes and this is with Antivirus and all the regular crap. 
Wondering ... 
My nearly 7 old Windows desktop is 2 Ghz.

You'd think in the last 7 years that the CPU speed would have evolved more. 
i think there are some design limits that single CPUs have hit in recent years, that's why everything is switching to multi-core. 
Only possible explanation for this is that you have a really silly amount of software set to launch upon logon and this would slow down the boot process of any OS to a crawl.
Not really. It's a work machine. We have a virus scanner and a messenger app and that's about it. There's nothing in the task tray that would explain 10 minutes of disk thrashing every reboot.

This is AFTER you've logged in, mind you. You've entered your password and you're now at the desktop. However, the machine won't be usable for another 5-10 minutes. 
Willem used quote tags!

Have a beer ;) 
We use a similar one. 
Archlinux was easy to setup and runs so very nice.
And thanks to Linux I could transfer all my settings by simple copying files over. 
Tuz Logo 
Archlinux was easy to setup and runs so very nice
What's good about it ?

Check out the new console bootup logo (for linux-2.6.29.x only)

Took a little effort to set up since i'm not actually using a 2.6.29.x kernel
(enable vesa framebuffer support, copy logo_linux_clut224.ppm to [kernel_source]/drivers/video/log , "make bzImage" and install new kernel adding this to grub "fb vga=0x315 video=vesafb:pmipal" )
but i now have a graphics enabled console and a cute tuz (tux tasmanian devil) logo. 
Archlinux is very minimal and does (mostly) only what you tell it to. That means I have a lightweight system that does everything I need without bloat. It needs 15 seconds to boot and is fast and snappy (using XFCE as desktop).
Installation and setup was actually easier than Debian (ok, that was some time ago and I am more experienced now). Things like the sound (OSS) or CPU frequeny scaling worked immediately.

The only drawback is that pacman is very inferior to aptitude (no menu for example), there are much fewer packages and using the user-repository ("AUR") requires using a different tool plus packages seem to be often broken or outdated. On the other hand the AUR contains a lot of proprietary software and other things (games) that now are easier to install than on other distros. 
Linux Local Privilege Escalation

I havent read it up

Since it leads to the kernel executing code at NULL, the vulnerability is as trivial as it can get to exploit: an attacker can just put code in the first page that will get executed with kernel privileges
On x86/x86_64, this issue could be mitigated by three things:
* the recent mmap_min_addr feature. Note that this feature has known issues until at least See also this LWN article.
* on IA32 with PaX/GrSecurity, the KERNEXEC feature (x86 only)
* not implementing affected protocols (a.k.a., reducing your attack surface by disabling what you don't need): PF_APPLETALK, PF_IPX, PF_IRDA, PF_X25, PF_AX25, PF_BLUETOOTH, PF_IUCV, IPPROTO_SCTP/PF_INET6, PF_PPPOX, PF_ISDN, but there may be more. (Update: See RedHat's mitigation)
Welcome To 
at least three days ago :( 
WIn7 Vs Vista 
Imho there is absolutely NO reason to switch to win7 when you have vista that runs without problems. I won't spend M$ tax two times for more or less the same.
Gfx perfomance seems to be identical. 
Willem: it's not the OS (unless it is bad configuration) more likely the network or the machine. I use Vista on a 2Gig Pentium 4 and I am up and running in just over 2 minutes, and I have loads of unnecessary things on startup.

rudl: I agree. The same was true of XP over Vista. But I will say that I have been running Win7 on my laptop for about 4 months and have had no issues at all. Admitedly, I don't use it for games but I do use it for mapping (and FQ for testing) and Photoshop. 
Not really vista/win7 is more like W2K/XP
not like Xp/Vista
Xp lacks of DirectX10 and DirectX11 is supposed to run with Vista aswell.
And there is really no reason to use windows at all if not for games and cad stuff^^ 
win 7 have all the drm stuff vista has? 
google it, seems to be worse than vista 
The people whining about DRM seem to be really confused regarding what having DRM support in an Operating System actually MEANS.

If you are using content that does not involve DRM, it does not, in any way, shape or form matter if your Operating System supports DRM or not, you are just playing back non-DRM content and thats all there is to it.

It's really simple really: if your OS has DRM support, you can use content that requires DRM support to be present. If your OS does not have DRM support, you cannot use that content. An example of this is BLURAY playback.

Note, that I am not an advocate of having content shipped with DRM built-in, I am absoluitely against it. However, you absolutely DO want your OS to support various existing DRM methods, because the other option it to simply not have any way to use DRM'ed content that requires it. 
well nobody here is whining about it, but that does not mean that i have to like it. 
Windows 7 For 63,99� On Amazon 
Win 7 Is Really Just A Vista Martini. 
Everyone and his dog is sucking up to windows 7. Here's a dissenter.,2817,2354446,00.asp 
Fact of life: [your OS] is shit, [my OS]is so much better in every way. 
your mom says hi. 
Oh, say hi to her for me! I hope she's enjoying Germany. 
Fact of life: [your OS] is shit, [my OS]is so much better in every way.
Umm, no. Linux and Windows are both shitty in too many ways to bother listing.

And Macs ~still~ don't have a decent file system. 
Your Title Says No 
But your post agrees with mine. 
MY OS Is Good! 
Its a far cry from Digital Operating System.
None of us can complain.
My freind installed some Windows updates the other week, restarted his computer, and was getting a fatal BSOD when the Windows loading screen came on. It would restart his computer.


Thankyou Microsoft - the "repair this installation of Windows" feature on the installation disc actualy worked!!! Didnt lose any of his files either! 
Quick and Dirty surely (rather than Digital)?

And 3.11 here... (honest ;) 
Are you saying you're using windows 3.11?
I'm so sorry. 
It runs Quake and a browser, what more do I need? 
So Your Using A Pentium Processor 
with 16Mb RAM and a 1.25Gb HDD? 
(that Was High Spec In Them Days) 
That was actually my specs when Q1 was released, god bless my father using CAD. Except I don't think I had that much HDD space. I remember always trying to remember the word 'pentium' and having to explain it was like a 586 to my friends 
Yeah, back when 486 was the mutts nutts.

I remember making stuff in LogoWriter back then, up until the school had the program removed because too many kids were just playing games all lunchtime.

Hm, LogoWriter doesn't even show up on Wikipedia. Was that turtle drawing a line thing, but could be scripted to do games. 
BBC Basic!!!! 
It runs Quake and a browser, what more do I need?

Yeah, these are two of the big three. Myself, i also need a programming environment, which now-a-days is Linux/Tcl/C/Shell, but back when i used to use my sister's 486/Win-3.1 was the pretty awesome GWBasic and NDos.

But Windows-3.1 still sucks big ones. Win95/98se with it's file manager, plug and play and USB is a huge improvement. 
Does Win 7 Get Along With Older Games? 
Like Quake (FitzQuake) and Quake 2
Diablo I & II
System Shock 2
..and you get the jist. well as popular FPS titles made since?

I have an 8 year old PC with WinME (I am the worst here, I bet) and have been getting closer and closer to an eventual gaming upgrade. I have a stack of purchased games that don't run on my Pentium 1.3GHz and I'd like to know that I will be able to run them on a new machine and OS. 
Avoid Vista And ATI 
Games tend to run but editors and the like don't. 
I aint buying anything for my PC (except for a possible new case) until the next gen NVidia cards come out. The market should shift, everything get a bit cheaper etc. Then it will be worth getting a DirectX 11 card.
Must admit though, the new Radeon 5870 does look mighty decent.

I have been flirting with the idea of getting a new GPU for a while now, but it really wouldnt be worth it. But I really wouldnt like to have anything worse than about an NVidia 7800 at the moment. My 8800GTS 512Mb is pretty much exactly the same as a 9800GTX. And I cant really justify upgrading it until new cards get a bit faster and cheaper.

But I will be wanting a DX11 card for the tesselation and better anti-ailiasing stuff. And more power. NEED MORE POWERRRRRRRR!!! 
Ricky, You Might Be Waiting For A While 
Nvidia completely droppped the ball on getting their next-gen (gt300) parts released on time. I'd expect a paper launch and no actual silicon to be seen until early next year.

But, DX11 will be very important... once a majority of gamers have cards that support the features. We're entering the era of fully-generalized GPU computing, which will mean not just better graphics, but things like physics and AI offloaded to our gpus. It's exciting, but I worry that it won't catch on in a big way until the next generation of consoles. PC games are stuck for now at the lowest common cross-platform denominator. 
Always the way, taking alot of time to move to the next jump. 
I know! Theres been a lot of talk and rumour about NVidia's <2% yeilds of the new chips and what have you. Some people are saying it will be March next year before we see their next load of cards. And the new ATI/AMD cards (5870/5850) are mighty fine looking cards. But at the moment ATI/AMD have the market cornered. The 11.5 inch long 5870X2 will surface soon also.

The new NVidia cards will be faster than the ATI ones when they finaly do come out, which will force the market into another price war (yay!) and that is when I will reconsider buying a new card. My current card runs most new titles with pretty high settings at 1920*1080, so it doesst make sense to replace it yet. I can live without 8xAntiAliasing and DirectX10/11 shaders for a few more months I think ;) 
Now Is Just A Bad Time To Be An Nvidia Fanboy 
Linux UT3 Officially Dead 
It's a little bit old, but news to me.

Also over at phoronix, they've been harping on about Steam for Linux is a cert for ages now... but i'll believe it when i see it. 
My Comp 
3.5 GB RAM
125 GB HD
XP Media Center
Creative X-Fi
Nvidia 8600 GTS
Dual Core

best of all, it was only $1200!!! 
XP's far from perfect but is the best OS MS ever made - vista's a memory hog to say the least, and 7 is a compatability problem filled nightmare (and memory hog) 
When did you buy that computer? $1200 sounds expensive for that nowadays. 
$1200 sounds expensive even if it's three years old. 
best OS is W7, since I have it no problems at all...

more then 12 month with same (no format and reinstall) OS and is something new to me!
no blue screens, don't crash don't get stuck...

finally Windows is almost like Linux! 
finally Windows is almost like Linux!
TBF Windows 7 Seems Good To Me 
But I've never used Linux (except for things which use Linux like Jukeboxes, Aeroplane TV's etc) or OSX to compare it to.
Best Windows yet though. And Windows XP takes some beating. 
Bought It 5.5 Years Ago 
LOL why?
talking about problems... not look...

linux don't give much problems and windows use to.. That was what I meant.

Looks like a person laughing with their tongue out :)-|-<
They should have called it "Windows HaHaNaNaNaNaNaaaa-Na!" 
Ive Alwas Thought The Same Thing 
accept it was lip music

OS X Yosemite 
Looks more than a little retarded to me. But thats ok - gives me an excuse to hop off the OS treadmill Apple have been having recently.
Are they really trying to make a desktop OS look like a mobile device.

Does anyone like/tried it ? 
Tried To Install It 
Fried my system. First time this has happened to me with Mac OS X. Not a great first impression. 
Hmmm? I didn't plan on installing immediately any way, but slightly disturbed ... 
It took a few hours to install for me, apparently there's an installer bug where if you have files in /use/local (i.e. homebrew), it takes forever :-/
I like the more minimal look though. 
Hows it going ? I cant see that there's been too many huge bugs. Any impressions about the new font. 
Fresh Install 
Works fine for me. Nothing big is broken. New font is clearly optimized for retina display and looks a bit shit on some external monitors. Can't really complain apart from the shitty upgrade installer. 
Some forum post
Can't imagine Steve Jobs would have approved of using Helvetica/Arial. Of course Helvetica a serviceable font. It's a no-brainer font for non-designers. Can't understand why Apple would use it. They could have designed or commissioned a unique font. Now my web browser text, email text, printed reports off my laser printer, user manuals, basic PDF's, and basic documents all have the SAME FONT as the menu bar and system. From an affordance and usability perspective, the system font should be distinctive. 
The font is not an improvement. Same goes for Safari 8 and its centered adress bar and centered favorite buttons. 
I Say This Not As A Consumer, But A Certified Apple Technician. 
Quote - All the laptops are basically disposable now. Soldered in RAM, soldered CPU, soldered GPU, no optical drives, proprietary SSDs. We replace Retina logic boards on a weekly basis now due to failed RAM. A keyboard replacement requires swapping out the entire lower half of the chassis, and a web cam failure means replacing the entire LCD screen.

Apple products are overpriced disposable garbage. The only thing "premium" about them is their insistence on using milled aluminum for their chassis .... They don't even have the "premium" software anymore- I can't tell you how many customers come in here complaining about perpetual updates that change everything (iOS 7), and more recently we've had a ton of complaints and downgrade requests from 10.10 because it's hard to look at.

IMHO; unless Apple smartens the fuck up in the next ~2 years, people are going to start losing interest in their products. This form-over-function thing has gone way too far on the hardware and their recent war on good user interfaces has turned their "premium" experience into a muddled bland mess of white space and blurry fonts.

This guy sounds kindof authoritive to me.
I think the bean counters have kind-of won out since Jobs has gone. 

I'm not sure what you mean... everyone I know that has one of the new apple laptops absolutely adores them. They don't care about any of those things mentioned above.

And really, how do all those weird 'ultra'books compare? I doubt they're all that upgradeable either. 
Yeah I have a MacBook for work and I fucking love it. Super slick and solid. 
Always was fond of this Steve Jobs on Netbooks 
Can't imagine Steve Jobs would have approved of using Helvetica/Arial. Of course Helvetica a serviceable font. It's a no-brainer font for non-designers.

Although It's the system font for iOS devices and has been since the original iPhone. 
I tried out Elementary OS. Hmmm - interesting. Borrows quite a few of OS X's ideas, and even improves some. ... But i couldnt play mp3 , or even install the codec, and after a few minutes the dock icons disappeared, so i gave up.

I like the look of the shotwell image viewer. 'yum install shotwell' wanted to update my whole kde/qt system, so went looking for the source. It's a Gnome thing, and the source is in a tar.xz format! Well, fmd , never seen this compression before. Just what we f-ing need. So trying to find/get the source for this (lzma utils) and it turns out it's alpha still. (lzma-4.42.0alpha6.tar.gz). Desktop Linux/Gnome are so pathetic. :( 
Has anyone really given Elementary a go ? 
Is it possible to run a Quake dedicated server in the background or as a service?

[I don't want the terminal open.]

I'm using Ubuntu and trying to make a Fitz 666 compatible dedicated server for Linux. 
fte has some code to register itself and run as a windows service. I doubt anyone really cares.

linux has all sorts of shell scripts that you can use to create a service.
look in /etc/rc.d for sysvinit, but seeing as every distro is being stupid and using systemd instead... good luck with that.
probably you'll want to restart the server every few days, with some small script that just restarts it each time (or if it crashes due to qc bugs or whatever, or if someone keeps trying to exploit it - restarting really helps with finding the correct memory offset to overwrite). might be useful for some ideas about what to do. It's certainly not a plug-and-play solution, and I've probably done some things wrong, but I used that setup for a long time to run QW and Q3 servers for a LAN gaming group. 
Interesting. I'm not hosting a public server or anything like that, but I re-purposed a Windows 8 machine and want it locally running for a bit so I can mentally double check to make sure it has all the features it needs (rcon, etc.)

And see how it handles
1) sleep
2) cpu
3) logs

And that sort of thing.

I saw code in FTE that on Sys_Error, FTE will start another server process on Windows and then quit.

I assume this isn't possible on Linux. 
@johhny - yeah that'll be helpful. 
Note that init scripts and "daemon" management are two of the things that vary a lot between Linux varieties. The stuff in that repo is particular to Debian.

I experimented a while back with an EC2 instance running "Amazon Linux" which is based on Red Hat, and I spent some time seeing what would be required to use that. Not only changes for Red Hat, but also how to find & use the external IP in the scripts, how to set up the EC2 instance's virtual hardware correctly, installing compiler tools to build mvdsv, etc. I dropped that before getting completely happy with it but I still have notes I can share if you want 'em. 
I'd be interested in that. So you've used EC2 before, right? And you ran a game server on it too (didn't know you could do that)?

Is E2 as cost-effective as they claim? 
Amazon bills me 41 cents a month for the storage.

Running the instance has additional costs. I was using a "compute-optimized" image in order to get enhanced networking. A c3.large instance is currently priced at about 10 cents an hour. I think if you pay up-front for larger stretches of time, it's cheaper. There are also data transfer costs that look like 1 cent per GB in, and no charge on outbound until you hit 10 TB / month. See

My notes are not quite as extensive as I remembered :-) but here they is: 
Apples New Metal API 
... and not all is about Music :0 
Re: I Say This Not As A Consumer, But A Certified Apple Technician. 
This goes into my Save File.

Just perfect. 
L:inux Mint 17 
haha. It all started so well... But some tough work now. What a pile of crap some linux software is. But Mint 17 seems pretty good i guess.

Anyone got El Capitan running smoothly ? There seem a lot of bug reports. 
In before spirit freaks. 
Most troubles with installing or running software in my work are from Mac users. 
Can Confirm 
spirit freaks. 
El Capitan Is Nice 
Haven't had many issues, many things are smoother than before. One issue I had, but it might not be related to El Capitan at all, was that yesterday my Time Machine volume got corrupted and I lost all my backups. Other than that, it has been smooth so far. 
El Capitan has had no issues for me. It is actually noticeably faster in many ways and in some things quite a bit faster and I'd like to seem more upgrades like El Capitan. It seems to be almost exclusively a performance upgrade version.

[I'm not fond of a couple of minor UI changes for searching and I hate that they've changed the green "zoom" button to be forced full screen, but that's minor.] 
Time Machine volume got corrupted and I lost all my backups.
Ummm... That's not good !
But i'll give it a go sometime. 
Does it support ext filesystems or at least ntfs out of the box by now? 
Steven, the corruption is probably not related to El Capitan at all. It happened a couple of weeks after upgrading.

Spirit, I think it has read only support for NTFS, not sure about write. Ext, not that I am aware. 
Going Gimp 
Really - i can't open a jpeg file in the gimp , and then save it. Save only works for their native format xcf ( i have to export). Wtf!?
.... GThumb can't have more that 1 instance open. Firefox is constantly f-ing up. Why can't the idiot devs of these projects stop breaking them ?

The project i forked from, idiot dev removed all permanent sort functionality, and a heap of other stuff, kidding himself he's the Steve Jobs of C++ coding, wile he's just another C code monkey on steroids with a stupid idea he can make *any* design decision. The new GUI/button-menus don't even post/unpost properly, and he doesnt care.

@Kristian - oh, ok.
I downloaded ElCap and have made a sparseimage with CCC for system roll-out. No real bugs yet, and looks ok... but i hardly do testing, as still use my Lion system for personal use.

@Sp - File system support is a very tricky thing.
Readonly is probably the best to expect for any modern FS i reckon. They're all so complicated and we don't want to break anything. Hell - The Linux BTRFS isn't even terribly stable in linux, after heaps of loving dev. Recently i had to switch from Reiserfs (the best imho) to Ext3 cause installers don't support it anymore. 
yeah, they made it stupid. you have to 'file->export' now, you can't just save and change the extension. :\ 
i know that it's a common complaint 'they changed it, now it sucks' but i feel sometimes those kinds of things are legitimate. it's just adding extra clicks. 
I Now... 
Everyone will whinge about changing stuff.
But it's not an export is it. I opened a jpeg. Why can't i save it. 
OSS is one big chronic case of "powerful free functionality wrapped in the worst interface possible" 
Post Your Favourite Bad GUI Toolkits 
Java AWT
Java SWT also sucks but at least you could choose a native look and feel.
Windows XP Fischer-Price actually works fine but christ it's ugly. 
I Just Image Googled "Java" And I Want To Puke. 
Cocoa Is The Rare Exception 
I'm offended AND triggered at the same time by that statement! How dare you! 
CDK? The sunos thing, never used that though. Does ActiveX count? That was pretty strong drugs on the programming end. 
Motif! Brings tear to my eye. I used the motif themed FVWM and even TWM for ages.

MS have shit GUIs too, but at least they work. Win98se was their best imho. KDE and Gnome 1 were kindof special for me. I just nixed my redhat 7 image this month. Gnome at least have kept a nice ascetic, but it's horribly under powered for me. 
"But it's not an export is it. I opened a jpeg. Why can't i save it."

I agree. At the end of the day, it should less about what is "correct" and more about enhancing the user experience. Open a JPG, save a JPG ... seems obvious. 
Let's also talk about how shit windows update is! My work computer has been unable to apply about 10 updates for months. I can not find why or what those updates even are. I can search for some numeric error codes and then I get told to 'try again' or use some 'update preparation tool' which does something but does not solve a thing.

Updating a year old archlinux takes less time and just works. Fucking hell. 
If Linux is so good why isn't everyone using it then. Booyah! Game, set and match bisnitches! 
"Updating a year old archlinux takes less time and just works."

Well, sure, there's nothing installed but the OS and Gimp... 
Let's also talk about how shit windows update is!

No. What you don't have is "how shit windows update is". What you have is one specific example of one specific PC used by one specific person, and you're generalizing that as some kind of universal rule. 
Eh, to be fair, he has a point .. you basically have to pray that Windows Update "just works" because when it doesn't you have zero chance of fixing it. 
Ok, how do I debug this specific problem then? 
no grid view? who designed this thing anyway? 
To totally disable windows 10 in update, there are several kb patches that need to be disabled. Don't forget to hide them when you uninstall them so you don't get bothered again. 
Easy rule for Windows 7, never install updates except those listed as "security", though they have lied about that at least once trying to get that piece of shit Windows 10 spyware installed.

I have 67 uninstalled Windows 7 updates on one computer. 
I Installed Windows 10 And It's Fine. 
Except for when it BSOD'd at boot and was unrecoverable and I had to reinstall from scratch. 
I'd love to try Windows 10 but with my business being as hectic as it is, I can't afford to have a single app stop working. I just can't risk it... 
Gimp Is An Above Average Linux Application 
The Microsoft Paint that came with Windows 3.1 is a lot easier to use than Gimp.

Linux desktop software is hopeless. There are no decent development tools for Linux and there isn't even a "desktop" API. I mean, we are talking "no file open dialog" barren wasteland.

Linux can do non-gui things just fine.

No one ever gave proper attention to a decent Windows manager, so even 1980s DOS GUI applications have more sophistication than what is available on Linux.

Likely the reason is that you would have 2 types of college age kids:

1) The kind that won't touch trying to make something from sticks and stones and instead will make something for Windows or a mobile platform.

2) The hardcore "C programmer" that uses terminal apps, that will make something against the grain but gets withered by the overhead of building with "sticks and stones".

Short version: Why is there, for example, SDL or GTK or Qt or WxWidgets? Each one is an attempt to pave over this deficiency. Arguably SDL's expanded horizons give it unusually wide appeal, while the others are attempts of "wrong-way" ports of Linux ideas to a platform that isn't in need of those solutions.

/One perspective. Probably wrong ... 
Most likely the Windows update cache is gone corrupt and just needs to be reset. It's rare but it happens.

net stop wuauserv
cd \
cd %Windir%
cd SoftwareDistribution
del /f /s /q Download
net start wuauserv 
> Linux can do non-gui things just fine.

I'm starting to think many OSS are a refuge for kiddy programmers who can't near any software-design in their real job.

But they *can* code. So, presto, ten million technically decent free apps - all with horrible GUIs - that generally break after a few revisions because of their no-design or aimlessness. 
It's Hell Of Course 
But better than having your arse owned by win10 and microsoft. OS X is still the way for anyone without an IT degree imho.

And the Gimp *is* decent software. That's why this hideous trivial thing hurts. 
Computers Suck 
Thanks mh, I will try that.

Horrible GUI design you say? How about Windows requiring you to select files before you can right-click them? Resizing windows requires you to find the few pixels of the border instead of allowing ALT+left/right-drag. Can you even pin windows to the front?

Oh, and MacOS? It's always fun trying to figure out which file you pick when Finder just displays like 20 characters of its name. Not to mention that the yellow and green window control buttons never do what I expect them to do, super unintuitive.

Now someone make a user-friendly GUI for Quake engines please. 
carmack actually wanted to ship quake with just the console and no menu at all 
carmack actually wanted to ship quake with just the console and no menu at all

I imagine the facepalming that was going on at the publisher's office after that was probably measurable on the Richter scale. 
Lol Kinn 
Very much like the recent posts in this thread :-P 
"carmack actually wanted to ship quake with just the console and no menu at all"

Really? Where'd you read that, I've never come across that before. 
(industry sources) 
So .. yeah. 
You are probably right.

Most Windows free applications are at least partially commercial.

For instance, WinRAR.

I don't agree about OS X.

The only decent text editor that I know of for OS X is written in Java (which means they aren't "into" OS X, but rather Java runs on everything so ...)

Keep in mind, there are probably 30 killer GUI text editors for Windows.

Apple knows how to software engineer. And they have vastly improved on documentation, but it pales compared to Windows.

And although Windows 8 and Windows 10 are muddying up the water away from historically what Microsoft is strong at, ignoring security as a factor, Windows 10 is still light years ahead of OS X.

/Again, one opinion. Probably wrong. 
OSX has Sublime, TextWrangler, BBEdit - and that's just off the top of my head not having used a Mac in several years. Text editing is something that's well handled. 
How about Windows requiring you to select files before you can right-click them?

Unless you mean something else than I think you do that has worked as long as I can remember?

Can you even pin windows to the front?

Seems to be up to the app or use of external software. 
Text Editors 
on Linux - i can edit my fstab with Libre Office, cough.

Actually, i did try out Libre Office for the first time. Straight away i noticed nasty, stupid bugs i'd never seen on Open Office. So it smells like shitware to me. ??

I tried out a few old boxes this week. Win95/Cyrix laptop - shutdown to an "illegal instruction" message.

And found a copy of my Fedora 7 (on my backup tower with an overclocked E5200) with it's super snappy kde-3.5. Yay <3 
I like it better than OpenOffice on OS X, at least. But it doesn't really matter, since they're all shit. 
Libre Seems Fine. 
Never had a problem the bit I need to use it. What are these, "bugs"? No worse than of the other free office suites. 
There's So Many Text Editors.. 
..on Linux then you would ever need. I usually just use geany. 
Yeah - on linux the IDEs are just as crappy as most other stuff - everyone has to use vim/etc and man pages. IDEs are so complicated - a serious investment in resources on both sides.

Had to take my Yamaha sound card out cause QS wouldnt work on Mint17/drive-me-crazy-F-ing-Pulse-Audio. But no diff anyway since my TCL amplifier blew up and i'm using $20 logitech speakers now. 
Geany looks ok 
I almost have my new OS sorted.
But fmd, it took me *ages* to find where gzdoom had saved my games so i could continue them. ... Alongside a few other ground-breaking apps in $HOME/.config/ Hey - why not just follow 50 years of unix common-use and put them in .gzdoom (where it once was) you freaking idiots. Laugh. 
As much as I appreciate the work that goes into keeping Linux as relevant as possible I really fail to see why anyone would adopt Linux other than to just mess around.

I actually bought a rasperry pi, messed about with Linux for a few weeks and now it's collecting dust. 
Linux on a server is a very valid proposition, but one must be wary of the tendency to think that "Linux is good for a certain very specific type of server, so therefore it must be equally as good for all other types too".

Linux on a desktop is barmy. It will never happen because the Linux community is too fragmented, whereas a single vision is needed to dominate the desktop. Distro wars, editor wars, source control wars, brace style wars - the Linux community will tear itself apart with infighting sooner than succeed.

It can't be a coincidence that the one place where Linux (in the strictest definition, i.e the kernel) has been successful is in the mobile space, where Google had the vision to rip the user-hostility and Unix-isms out of the interface, and the corporate muscle to put it out there and market it properly. 
"corporate Muscle" 
is the kind of statement that makes me sad. I mean, people not in charge of any corporation helping to validate such mindset. 
If you are using Linux like the typical Mac user (5 programs), it works pretty fucking great for anyone. 
Yeah, Right 
Unless you a laptop, in which case you'll have half the battery life and constantly spinning fans. And of course god help you if you decide to use a recent driver for your video card because you'd like to play a game or something.

I have really tried to like Linux on the desktop because I'm getting fed up by Apple's policies, but it's just not usable for me, and if someone like me cannot use a Linux system without major hassle (like editing various config files and restoring broken drivers), then I highly doubt the "typical Mac user" could, and in particular if god forbid they'd like to run it on their Mac computers. 
That sounds like a terribly misconfigured system. What's the problem with drivers? Nvidia and Intel have good support afaik. Maybe the Mac hardware actually is the problem in your case? No idea if apple or their part manufacturers release drivers for Linux.

You can buy preconfigured laptops, maybe that fits the mac stereotype better? I meant mom/dad types. I did not mean installing and configuring it. 
I'm fairly competent with PC's (having around 25 years experience) but Linux is just ridiculous. Sometimes it feels obtuse for the sake of it. 
That's Just How Operating Systems Are 
If Linux is ever going to have a chance as a desktop OS, now is the time.

Windows 10 has way too many privacy and security issues, which along with Microsoft's apparent belief that they should own your computer, means that many people are sticking with Windows 7 (or even 8, lol).

However, "support" for Windows 7 will eventually go away. Officially there's only 5 years left and there's not a lot of other options. 
That sounds like a terribly misconfigured system.

Maybe the Mac hardware actually is the problem in your case?

That's just how operating systems are.

This is the armor that has protected linux attitudes for ages. It's always your fault. 
and acpi are pretty tough cookies. I read an article about it - that -somethinglike- the ACPI spec is wrong and windows does all these hacks to make it work. 
Linux Is Crap 
But it's a rock, and i love it.

> Whenever I read things like this, I'm glad I use twm.

Pfft. I manage my windows with a nine volt battery, a paperclip and a steady hand 
"This is the armor that has protected linux attitudes for ages. It's always your fault. "

Haha, nice. Was going to post the same thing.

--Linux : It's always YOUR fault-- 
Ah Yes, And "Apple Stuff Just Works" 
My point was that installing a OS to random hardware sucks. Windows, Linux, does not matter. I have had more trouble with power and fan control on Windows in the past. MacOS is bound to specific hardware so out of scope.

You can buy pre-configured, Linux-tailored laptops. That's the equivalent of a macbook.

Enjoy Windows 10 everyone. 
Well, since all the software I need to get actual work done is on Windows, I have little choice in the matter. 
Windows and OSX are merchandise, Linux is free. Complain about Linux in general like a costumer makes no sense, the same way people don't complain about Quakespasm. All of us users are part of it too. I believe that's what you see like "its always your fault" 
Windows 10 has way too many privacy and security issues, which along with Microsoft's apparent belief that they should own your computer, means that many people are sticking with Windows 7 (or even 8, lol).

Most people don't actually give a flying bollocks about this stuff. So far as most people are concerned an OS is just a means to an end. 

If you're going to adopt that sort of viewpoint, then you also have to give up the notion that Linux is competition for the other desktop OS's. If it's untouchable because it's free, then there's no accountability for anything. Hence, "it's your fault". The majority of computer users don't have time for that. 
Most people don't actually give a flying bollocks about this stuff

This is true. The vast, vast majority of windows users don't know and don't care. Besides if you care about privacy in windows then you are also capable of googling how to disable the information sending, it's just options in the settings.

Personally I'm in the "I don't give a flying bollocks" camp. I mean I use facebook, and google products and don't exactly lose sleep over their data gathering abilities. 

Yes, maybe some enterprise Red Hat desktop is competing. Maybe Ubuntu is competing because it's merchandise. But "Linux" is not competing. I'm not saying it's untouchable, though, just like stuff we do here. But it's not a supplier/consumer contract. 
Oh No Companies Gather My Data............ 
Who the fuck cares? What is Google going to do with the information as to what I searched for 30 days ago? 
If it's untouchable because it's free, then there's no accountability for anything. Hence, "it's your fault". The majority of computer users don't have time for that.

This is totally true. To the typical Joe-End-User, a computer is a commodity electronic item, like thir microwave, their fridge or their VCR. They expect to be able to plug it in, switch it on, and press a few buttons to get what they want.

If it doesn't work first time, or if they need to do anything even quarter-way complicated to get it to work, and especially if they're told "it's your fault" to either of these, they'll just chuck it out and get a different one (or decide that they didn't want one at all to begin with).

Joe-End-User doesn't care that they're running Linux, or OS X, or Windows, or even fucking BeOS. Joe-End-User cares that they're getting email, or browsing the web, or watching movies. 
^ And That's Exactly What I Meant In My Original Post. 
Yo otp, copy and paste your for us if you don't give a fuck. 
For everyone complaining about Gimp - Krita seems to be a rather good alternative atm for image manipulation (even on windows!) for those who don't want to pay for Photoshop. 
I've heard Krita is good for painting/drawing but not so much for textures yet. 
Starting To Watch This One. 
Pretty amazing. Jobs intoducing OS X, iTunes, the G4 powerbook, and some ordinary desktop hardware.
"We appreciate the applause ... But you shouldn't be applauding Cause this is how it oughta work"
"There is a music revolution happenning right now."
"We want both. The power and the sex... totally new powerbook." 
Say What You Will... 
I'll never use Windows as my main OS ever again. I started checking out Linux 20+ years ago and it's been my only OS for the last three years with Arch then now Manjaro Xfce. It just works for me and with way more than just 5 programs. I'm not that "guy" who sees it as the only OS, just my OS of choice. To each there own.

Just last week I switched my wife and son's PCs over to Windows 10 from 7 and I setup a dual boot partition on my own PC for those few Windows games I do play that currently won't work in WINE. It is Windows that "feels" a little like Linux, but with much more spying. Even if you turned off the visible spying options on setup or after at least one windows update reactivated those. There a few freeware tools you can download that will turn off 70+ spying type things from Windows 10, but I like Spybot's Anti Beacon the best.

Krita can be useful for some texture work. I especially enjoy using it's wrap around view to see how it tiles as you work it, but use gimp mostly the little I do anything with textures. I was familiar with Photoshop long before gimp and that helped make gimp quick to pickup.

yadda yadda yadda... 
I remember it was a chore just to get the most recent version of flash so Firefox wouldn't block YouTube videos. 
"I remember it was a chore just to get the most recent version of flash so Firefox wouldn't block YouTube videos. "

Still somewhat of a problem on Mint. Firefox will start complaining and block Flash long before an update becomes available. Long being many many days sometimes. I just override the blockage and don't worry about it. Doesn't change the annoyance though. 
I use a Windows workstation at work. Windows is in our workstations, AD and Exchange. All the rest runs on Linux: database, internet and application servers, services running on virtual machines, etc.

This year, when I came back to Quake after 15 years and found this forum, I decided to use W7 at home for Worldcraft, Photoshop and Wally.

But I've been using Ubuntu since version 8, also Fedora and Mint. I had very few problems, less than using Windows. 
So much (but admittedly not all) is familiarity. I've been mostly on Linux (and a bit of OS X) for about 15 years and some things about Windows come across as really odd. 
^ This 
Gimp 2.6 
Yay. I tried to compile Gimp 2.6 from source, but f that shit. GTK/glib/glib2/gegl dependancy hell, and after i got configure going, there was some legacy glib issues busting cc.

So just did some serious apt hacking.
which is probably not a good idea, but it worked :) 
Is the number one reason I stuck with windows 7. Now there's Jackhammer...but I don't want to switch...too much hassle. 
How strange. Worldcraft on Windows 7 was the number one reason I switched to NetRadiant. 
HL2 Hammer 
Was the number one reason I stuck with Worldcraft. 
Windows 10. 
How bad is it??

Any issues with games?? Or with photo / video editors?? 
switched to it back in august, no problems at all. transition was smooth enough that all my icons, programs, etc were in their places and working as intended.
games work properly, i use photoshop and lightroom, they work ok as well. 
Windows 10 
So, for months I just closed all the "upgrade to windows 10" reminder notifications that kept popping up on my PC.

Then last week, I left my computer idling for a bit, and then came back to find it was in the middle of installing Windows 10 without my permission, the cheeky cunts. I had no idea they would do that, but anyway I had let it finish.

Now here's the thing, everything still works, everything is where I left it, but it's true what they say - the operating system is literally spyware sending everything including your fucking keyboard presses (yes, no shit) to microsoft, if you just leave it in its default state.

It appears that you can turn all that shit off (which is what I did). I just googled "turn off windows 10 spying" and it led me to this video which seems pretty comprehensive:

Yes I'm aware there are better guides out there than that waffly 35 minute video 
Cheers Broz. 
On Win7, happy with that, hate any OS that is visually based around apps/touchscreen BS, but might have to get Win10 with new pc. 
they fixed that in win10, u can set it up for proper desktop usage without that metro interface (it's actually old way by default). you can also disable all those squares from start menu. so in the end it feels like win 7 no prob. 
Only install Windows 10 if you're okay with handing total control of your PC over to Microsoft. And yes, it's basically spyware and there's no way to turn that completely off.

It doesn't seem to be going over all that well but Microsoft continues trying various sneaky methods to sucker people into installing it. 
Buying a laptop (still on this), I can get it with Win7. At an extra �80. So, errr. 
win7 will pester you with free upgrade to win10 every day, be prepared.


The free upgrade is a full version of Windows (not a trial or introductory version) and is available until July 29, 2016. Once you upgrade, you�ll have Windows 10 for free on that device. 
Personally I'd just get win 10 and turn the spying options off. 
More Then That 
Windows 10 is now a "recommended" update in Windows Update, so Windows 7 with default settings will eventually install Windows 10 on it's own without asking. 
So that why the bastards sneaked it onto my computer without my permission. 
Microsoft Deceptions Undermining Windows 10 
That's why 10 is now sitting on my laptop without my permission. 
Let's Have A Good Cry About It. 
Yeah, I'd Read About This 
They install spyware on your computer, without your consent. Surely the EU are gonna do a number on them again. 
The Reason I Don't Switch To OS X 
Xcode is good. Xcode is your friend. Accept the Xcode. Let it flow through you.
They screw around devs every frigging cycle.
No root file access in El Capitan. FMD.
(Cue apple (or Gnome) fanboys reciting - oh but it's good. You never wanted it anyway)
So i can't link /usr/include/X11 to whereever it is in the Xcode heirarchy

I've found the workaround... but they've also broken the TCL APIs... Anyway. "make" works now.... Getting there :) 
Well Kids.. 
I was JUST reading an article on this BS.

If your already stuck with windows 10 you can at least turn down the spying a bit with Spybot's Anti-beacon

And to stop the auto update to 10 before it happens you can use Steve Gibson's free Never 10 program. 
10 Broke Windows Update 
I just realized I haven't had a Windows Update since March. Bloody 10 must've broken Windows Update somewhere along the line. Touche to Microsoft. Now to fix this mess. 
Mac OS X ^h^h^h____macOS Sierra 
Cheers for that Baker.

Does anyone know if the new list of compatible macs is arbitary, or hardware related ? 
Still On Windows 7 + Linux 
On the fence about upgrading. The main two things putting me off upgrading now whilst it's free are the fact that you lose control of your update schedule, and Microsoft's awful behaviour about pushing people to Windows 10. If they are pushing people into upgrading their entire OS now, what's it going to be like in a year or two when you are on Windows 10 and have no control over updates.

Oh yeah, and all the spying shit, ads in the start menu etc. Although people keep telling me you can turn it off... you can now, but for how long? You've lost control of your updates, so who knows what MS are going to push down your pipe.

Oh, and I have a laptop running Linux Mint 17.3 It's a shame so much software I use doesn't run on Linux, because it's a very nice OS, and doesn't really have any annoying things about it. I've had very few issues with incompatibilities and drivers are often better than on Windows. Getting a PS4 pad working on Linux is as simple as plugging it in or pairing over bluetooth. Other stuff tends to just work too. There are a few things where I needed to install stuff from the Linux Mint software repo (for example, high capacity SD card drivers), but this is pretty easy. 
I Dualboot Win 10 With Linux OK 
I was running straight up Linux the last 5 years or so until my son started gaming more and my wife not good with OS changes upgraded to Win 10 with some other relatives recently.

Ended up throwing win 10 on a partition to help troubleshoot anyone's future windows issues and gaming with my son for any game I couldn't bend to Linux's will. I also have a Virtualbox install of Windows 7 for the odd situation.

So far I really haven't used 10 an awful amount, but it's not much different than 8 for the most part. Any Windows issue was easy to fix or a Google search away. Most games I play on average either have Linux ports or run in WINE. Being a amature photographer I found and use open source programs for my photography with no hindrances or issues to speak of.

I did throw the free Avast antivirus on win 10 and disabled Cortana and any other telemetry spying in the background with available freeware apps. Like you said it only takes one forced Windows update to re-enable that, but the average user doesn't care. 

Congrats, you significantly lowered the security of your system: 
Thanks for link. I don't use Windows all that often and I've never had an issue in the 6 years using Avast, but doesn't mean I won't change Antivirus programs after looking at that data. 
Win10 Tripping Balls 
I find it really weird how smoothly this forced Windows 10 update shit is going down...

Really, like reality has been distorted, people are getting reeaaaaly mushy in the head or what ? I have a strong feeling had they tried this in early 2000's MS would of been ripped to fucking shreds for trying shit like this.

MS are desperate to get Win10 on as many PC's as they can, the reason is what they want to do is offload most of the OS to their cloud basically.
Hence Azure and other linux/cloud to windows interfacing projects they are deep into right now.

No need to collect data about its users for monetisation with "spyware" anymore if half of the OS is running on their own servers.

Its the usual craze about amassing user data and turning it into cash through advertising etc, a la Google / Facebook etc. Its a bit crazy of them, they are banking on this whole revenue through data collection/ads not being a massive bubble, which it could well be.

Win7 is lovely as it is thanks. There are ways to turn the update to win10 nagging off by the way.

If you get Win10 with your new machine grab yourself a "free" downgrade to Win7 online and format that shit away. 
I agree, things are getting ridiculous. The crap people accept these days would have had our not too distant ancestors up in arms. 
The Windows 10 Enterprise edition -- supposedly it doesn't have telemetry (or it can be permanently disabled easily) or ads.

You can buy Windows 8 Enterprise for $199 and I assume it upgrades to Windows 10 Enterprise: 
Yet You All Happily Use Steam 
Mmmyeah. Steam is more limited in scope than the whole damn OS itself. 
Yes I've had a few issues with win10 so far.

One day turned the computer on to find a "no boot device found" message. Went to dos to find my boot drive was no longer c:. wtf. Managed to go back to a save point and that fixed it.

Also had about a week where explorer was having big issues. I couldn't right-click on any file, and some programs would crash when bringing up an explorer window (such as the Save window).

Uninstalled a couple updates twice, although it kept reinstalling them, but it seems to have gone away now.

Sometimes search on the Start menu doesn't work as well. Which is needed now because it takes so fucking long finding anything in the App menu now, compared to say win 95 where shit was arrange into categories at top level. Oh those were the days where you could get to a program in 3 clicks. 
Why not install Win7 instead ?

What is the point even of Win10 ?

I don't understand what its supposed to do for anyone that Win7 does not. 
Windows 10 is for Microsoft's benefit only. They want to make more money off the users. The need for more money is probably because they are not doing too well be due to idiot management.

There are a few small improvements over Windows 7, but those are not worth the price in my opinion, though DX12 may eventually become a necessity.

I only start Steam if I want to play a game that won't run without it, but Steam is hard to avoid.

Game developers seem to love Steam, so gamers are basically stuck with it. However, many games bought through Steam will actually run without it sniffing your balls running in the background at the same time.

Personally, my last 10 or so game purchases have been through GoG. Unfortunately, most big new releases are Steam only. The Witcher 3 is an exception. 
Sounds to me like your hard-disk is failing. 
Fork Yeah! Solaris History/rant 
The New Macbook Pro Tool Bar Is A Scab I Want To Pick Off 
I dont think this guy likes the new Macbook Pros,440581

He reckons Mickeysoft's Surface Studio is what he wants, but hard for me to think it will gain much traction in the creative community. Windows, and the PC experience is just too shitty imho/

But I'm pretty sceptical about the new touchbar too.
It just breaks too much os what we expect. Screen up there... keyboard down here. 
Rick, yes, my gobsmack moment is why did everyone just accept win10 showed down their throats like a smelly rapey cock, free or paid, whatever ?

Steam works fine on Windows 7

A lot of people gave Windows 8 a skip, and Vista etc... What the fuck happened? 

Some /. cuts -

BSD: Free as in Speech
Linux: Free as in Beer
Windows 10: Free as in Herpes

Hey all you Slashdotters, President Pussy-Grabber here,
I think Windows 10 is awesome! It walks right up to your computer and grabs it by the pussy, and I think that'll make computers Great Again! You should all stop using that 'linux' thing you all keep jabbering on about and just use this instead!

I mean, yeah... Chrome and Firefox do the same thing, but coming from the OS, that's pretty rough. 
Believe Me 
I am not surprised MS is pulling this shit, and it will probably work for most simple users out there.

It's very very intrusive and will make users very not happy believe you me. 
Microsoft have this thing where they get a product to a stage where it's "good enough" and then there's no compelling reason to upgrade.

Typically what happens then is hardware, not software, ends up driving it forward.

We all saw it with XP. XP was "good enough" for such a long time and it was only when we hit 32-bit limits that we needed to move on. Vista was shit but it had 64-bit and better multi-CPU support. 7 is almost "good enough"; the main thing it's lacking in terms of hardware support is good SSD support. 8 and 10 are just flat-out better with SSDs.

Microsoft are pushing 10 down your throat because they don't want a repeat of what happened with XP where people stick with an OS version for 10+ years because that version is "good enough". Rather than give compelling reasons to upgrade they're taking the choice away. They'd be better doing it the other way round but that leopard ain't gonna change it's spots. 
Is Windows 10 
Designed as the last operating system?

We're probably going to be sticking with it for a while 
Windows 10 is, in theory, supposed to be the last "version" of Windows. Microsoft has done many things recently to try and force PC users to switch to it.

It is well known that Windows 10 is basically spyware. This can be controlled somewhat by changing settings, but not completely, and the settings have been known to revert to defaults automatically in many cases.

Fortunately Windows 10, at this point, is easily avoidable and unnecessary. Much of what average people do with PCs is now web driven and runs in a browser. The OS is not that important and Linux can do this job as well as, if not better than, Windows.

Gaming is one of the areas where Linux is not so great. DX12 does not seem to be catching on at this point though, so Windows 7 still works well for gaming.

Steam is almost a necessity for gaming these days and it does a fair amount of spying also. Even when used in "offline mode" it is not really offline.

For right now, I have not seen a way to avoid Microsoft's garbage completely, so I have one PC for gaming with Windows 7 installed. And Steam. I use an Icy Dock in that computer, when not needed for games I can shutdown switch SSDs and reboot Microsoft-free and Steam-free in less than 2 minutes. 
Win10 Has Been Fine For Me. 
Vista also worked fine for a lot of people. 
I Probably Should Be More Bothered 
About windows 10 spying than I am. Most of the time I am not even thinking about it 
Is There A Compelling Reason 
to switch from, say, win7 to win10? 
I guess. 
If you find a game that is DX12 only, or can use DX12 and is greatly improved by it, then Windows 10 is your only choice.

There are some non-game related improvements, but for me, those are far out-weighed by the many drawbacks. Microsoft has just gone too far into areas where no operating system belongs.

This is a polarizing issue, many people just don't care. The logic is often along the lines of "everybody does it", "that's just the way it is these days", etc. Some say "I have nothing to hide, my life is an open book" or some other such nonsense. I am firmly in the opposite camp, and if anyone has a choice and asks, then I will always recommend against Windows 10.

Of course, I am a grumpy old man, and get off my lawn is a way of life these days.

If you have any choice, then you should at least do a little research so that you know what you're getting into when you agree to Microsoft's privacy policy and service agreement. 
It's Pretty Funny... 
That Microsoft basically released an OS that is clearly adware, malware, spyware and out-of-your-control-ware TRICKING millions into upgrading and yet... so many are complacent about this.

If things don't change, Win7 will be my last MS OS even if that means any future PC gaming, on Windows, is sacrificed.

And now they have it so if you want the newest CPU's from AMD and Intel, they to are tied to Win10. Linux is fine though. 
Oh And, 
I didn't even mention about how they use your bandwidth to deliver updates to other PC's! This all should have been illegal on so many fronts, seriously.

Personal Computer, I think not. Not with Win10. 
It's a huge breach of privacy and duty... which i'm guessing they are only allowed to do, because the win10 spyware is shared with the US government. 
I have windows 10, and I use SpyBot Anti-Beacon which automatically turns off any telemetry in windows 10. I havent any issues otherwise, yet i occasionally get a *suggested notification on the start menu of apps to get from the app store. Meh, i'm a sheep. :| 
Windows 10 Is Going To Cause Another Lawsuit 
Apparently Kaby Lake doesn't run Windows 7, for ***reasons***. I'm getting a new laptop soon, so hopefully I'll be able to prove that for myself. I'm hoping it'll at least run in a VM...

Seriously, the bigger your market share, the worse a company you become... Intel, Nvidia, Apple...

Microsoft was just always sketchy. 
I don't really see how a 3rd party application would be able to prevent the OS from doing as it pleases, or how you would even know if it was actually working. It sounds good though. 
Isn't spybot pretty much just a virus at this point? I thought it died, got resurrected as "2.0" and turned out to be utter trash. That's what google says, anyway. 
Works by turning off the telemetry settings via the Windows registry. Which Windows update can and does turn them back on whenever it sees fit.

A better solution is run Linux or Windows 7. 
all u have to do each update is press a button to turn off/updae the settings.

Fear, its a penis that wants to take over your dick.. 
For some reason I find it hard to believe that changing a few settings actually stops Microsoft from spying and sniffing around in your system.

I figure those settings are mostly just for show. Something to give you a safe, cozy, secure feeling that you've thwarted their attempts to invade your privacy.

The reality is, once you install Windows 10, they own your computer, not you. 
If you're really worried that a software provider is doing things that they claim they are not doing and don't appear to be doing, then there's no way you'll ever be secure/happy with any desktop or phone OS. Except maybe a Linux distro that you build yourself. 
if it really bothers you, then just make router rules to block external IPs you don't like. 
I dunno.

On the one hand we have a major software vendor being open about what they are and aren't doing, with US and EU legal officials watching ready to pounce, with national data protection legislation all over the world that has to be complied with, and with a huge revenue stream from licensing potentially under threat if they go too far.

On the other hand we have paranoid random dude ranting on the internet.

Which shall I believe? Decisions, decisions. 
Troll harder bro...

It's not paranoia when it's factual and TRUE!

Just one example, and NOT from some "random paranoid dude ranting on the internet"... gfy

Just because you accept it, doesn't mean it's correct. It just makes you complacent, as I stated above. 
Technically, they didn't do anything illegal here. 
I don't think anybody said what they do is illegal. As a matter of fact, you have to agree to let them do it before you can use Windows 10. They call it their "Service Agreement". It doesn't apply to just Windows either, it includes most of their other products and services.

I don't know the "paranoid random dude". I first heard of the issues from a Microsoft employee who said he personally wouldn't use Windows 10 because it made him feel uncomfortable. He didn't work in the OS division though, so what does he know?

Personally, I think it's one of those situations where it's better to be safe than sorry. Since there's no really good reason to use Windows 10 and many reasons to avoid it, that's what I've done.

Of course, as I said before, many people just don't care for one reason or another. That's fine, but I hope they actually read and understood but the Service Agreement and Privacy Policy that they agreed to first. 
I Think We All Know The Solution Here, Don't We? 
Install Gentoo 
Well At Least M$ 
Now let's people uninstall the Windows 10 upgrade crap now that Windows 10 isn't a free upgrade any longer. 
Oh the naivety of some people

Everybody is on the "your customers data is the real $$$" gravy train and M$ sure as fuck are baking on it with Win10

Hehe, "free" Win10 upgrade. Yup, where the FUCK do some of you **** think they generate $ from with that shit ?

Legal or not does not fucking matter. 
Microsoft make the vast majority of their profits from corporate licensing. Sorry to shit in your cornflakes, but you're nowhere near as important as you think you are. 
It matters when the lawsuits come. Or at least it should.

There's a difference between using dirty tactics to trick the users into doing something, and outright lying to them. Though both are despicable. 
mh yes they do.

They are also publicly traded.

They are also loosing ground as to corporate licenses or at least see such a thing starting to happen, they have already adapted theyr strategy there, joining in the open source movement etc.

Their prerogative it to constantly generate more profit.

Wherever they can, and the big ticket is customer data.

Just look at their most expensive acquisitions:

June 13, 2016 | LinkedIn | Value USD 26,200,000,000

May 10, 2011 | Skype Technologies | Value USD 8,500,000,000

And others.

They are DESPERATE for it to stay relevant in investors eyes.

This is how it goes today and always but more than ever now in the tech world: someone has made mega$$$ with X ? We must do X too or we are irrelevant and investors will think we will fail in future (nevermind if its a fucking stupid idea for Y company to do X thing.

For M$ recently :
(For corporate reasons foremost but Win10 is very ready to be offloaded onto the cloud, thats the end goal, your OS will not run on your PC but a remote server they have plenty control over), same already with office etc

and USER DATA!! -> lets spend sickening amount acquiring social networks and mine our userbase (Win10)

mh, please shut up. 
Combined With 'deep Learning' AI..... 
Skynet will go online soon! 
Yes Mh 
Please shut up lest we get more Killes rants. 
Just Shut Up Period 
Geez - i had to debug a friends OS X printer issue today. It was a wireless connection... but worked perfectly. What a lovely piece of software.

I'm just saying - i really don't understand why people don't use OS X. Their desktop share is going backwards even though MS gives everyone the pineapple, and Desktop Linux is so pathetic

Mebee Chromebooks are the future, laugh. All hail our Google overlords. 
People wonder why people don't use OS X? Perhaps it's the cost. Or the software support. Or the continuing decline of Apple's software quality over the past few years - even if they are still miles ahead of Microsoft, they're getting worse when it comes to bugs and flaws with every release, and Microsoft is only gaining ground. 
I Agree With Declining Quality 
But Microsoft is gaining ground? Please. Their OS is about as shit as it always has been. It's a complete mess in the UI department. Just because Windows 10 is better than 8 doesn't mean that they're gaining anything. 
The point is they're closing the gap, for better or worse. They have their own little walled enclave with the Store, they had a voice assistant before Apple did (!), Driver support has been improving or at least holding steady since 7 and yes, the UI does suck compared to what Apple offers, but it's slightly better than 7 from a QoL perspective and at least it's not as bad as 8. 
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